Offensive? I think not.

[tpdncr4christ]

Ok. So, I've been thinking, which is very dangerous I must say, and this is what has come of it.

We get too damn offended. I mean, it seems that whenever someone says something, all the minority groups jump up and go crazy. For instance, this whole radio thing, I don't get it. He calls some black lady a whore, and black groups, white groups, feminist groups all jump out and get him kicked off the radio for three weeks. He got kicked off for doing his job, saying nasty things about people. That's what this radio host does. He says crappy mean horrible things to people and gets paid, its no different now than it was only people listened this time.

Its not just that, if I wanted to start a club for people of my similar ethnicity to come and meet and hang out and support each other, it would be ok if we were gay, if we were black, if we were jewish, or christian, but if I was white, forming a white club, that would be racist, people would look down on us, they would call us KKK and such. We would get treated horribly, be victims of prejudice and discrimination.

This is seriously messed up. Does any one see that? Our minority's have gotten so wrapped up in being minority's that we aren't people anymore. We are gay, or black, or christian, or white, or italian, or whatever the heck we are. I'd like to be a homosapien. Any one else see how screwed up this is? Please... thank you for allowing my vent.

[Jennifer5]

I know what you mean Austin.... and we all do it. People take the most meaningless thing and act as if it's an insult... people can't take a joke anymore and they won't listen to you if you're not joking and actually talking seriously about something (if that makes any sense) :love:

[Rick336]

We get too damn offended. I mean, it seems that whenever someone says something, all the minority groups jump up and go crazy. For instance, this whole radio thing, I don't get it.

Imus called the basketball team of mostly African American women, "...nappy headed hos." That's very insensitive, degrading, and disrespectful not to mention racist. Ann Coulter calling John Edwards a "faggot" was even worse. Mel Gibson ranting that Jews are responsible for all the wars was idiotic.

But I do understand what you mean to a point. Sometimes political correctness is very confusing. The term "people of color" is considered politically correct while the term "colored people" isn't.

For most of my life the word "queer" was the worst thing you could call a gay person. Now it's cool.

Some may consider LGBTQQIA to be politically correct. But nobody knows what all those letters stand for. And to make matters worse, it changes daily. It's confusing to most of us not to mention straight people.

Then there's the whole idea about how we need to be politically correct when speaking of people different from us unless we're talking about white Southerners. Then the terms "hicks, trailer trash, hillbillies, inbreds, rednecks, and white trash" are perfectly acceptable. Say what?

What I do is try to treat everybody with respect. I would never think of saying "nappy headed hos" or calling someone a "faggot". That's terribly disrespectful. It degrades the person as less than human.

I'll refer to African Americans as African Americans. And when I talk about LGBT people I'll mostly say "gay" when talking and when typing, either LGBT or gay.

And if I screw up and say something that offends somebody I'll apologize.

Rick

[Pablo Rafael]

Austin, I see your point and agree to some extent, but think that minority groups really do deserve different treatment.

If all were equal, I would think that everone could be treated the same. However, in our country things are not equal. If gays, blacks, hispanics, Jews etc. had the advatages of white Christian males, I would be content. However when in 2007 blacks only make 58% the income of whites, when Jewish people around the world are still vicitims of people who would like to recreate the holocaust, when the percentage of hispanics in government is much smaller than their population, ect., our work to end discimination is still ahead of us.

Also I feel that women, though not a numerical minority, still do not have the advantages as males. In my school new people almost always assume that I am the principal because I am the only male. I have to direct them to our wonderful female principal.

We have a long ways to go until all can be equal and the playing field is level. An analogy I think of is this. In my classroom I have all the advantages. I have a size and strength advatage. I have authority due to my position. However, because I have the advantage, I have to make sure that I do not abuse it. One of my students could call me a bad name or committ some other transgression. It would not be a big problem. If I were to do the same, it would be, however.

Since the white male has the power, authority and money in our society, I think they have a responsibility to treat smaller more disadvantaged groups with more care and respect. Until things really are equal, I think we should be on our guard to be aware of any disrespect shown to minority groups.

Now I am beginning to vent.
Or is it "pontificating". (We Catholics are allowed to do that aren't we?) ;)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[kara speltz]

Then there's the whole idea about how we need to be politically correct when speaking of people different from us unless we're talking about white Southerners. Then the terms "hicks, trailer trash, hillbillies, inbreds, rednecks, and white trash" are perfectly acceptable. Say what?

What I do is try to treat everybody with respect. I would never think of saying "nappy headed hos" or calling someone a "faggot". That's terribly disrespectful. It degrades the person as less than human.

I'll refer to African Americans as African Americans. And when I talk about LGBT people I'll mostly say "gay" when talking and when typing, either LGBT or gay.

And if I screw up and say something that offends somebody I'll apologize.

Rick

Rick you're absolutely right when you talk about how people often feel it's ok to talk about Southerners in disrespectful ways. Actually the truth is, that one of the things we do not acknowledge in this culture is class. Those terms you used are often used for poor and working class white folks not just southerners. But for anyone who considers themselves to be a person of faith, it would seem to me to be as wrong as any other degrading remark made about a group of people. As someone who grew up in the projects, I am very sensitive to issues of class.

One of the reasons I love Soulforce so much is that it continuously calls me to love my advesaries. Not an easy chore, but one that is absolutely necessary if there is ever going to be any peace in this world.

kara

[u-dog]

I don't often disagree with you Austin (or you Jenn) but I do this time. Imus is a public figure who is listened to by many people. I have often been enraged, disgusted, and annoyed by his opinions. I have never agreed with much of anything he said, but I never thought he should lose his job because he was silly enough to disagree with me.

However, when he referred to an entire team of young African American women as "nappy-headed hoe's" he crossed the line. He took a physical characteristic that is shared by most members of an entire CLASS of people and made it part of an insult. He denigrated a whole people based on their physical characteristic.

He also denigrated half of the human race by calling them whores. Historically, one of the ways that women were "kept in their place" was with the suggestion that any woman who was not a wife and mother was, defacto, a "whore". A man in his position has the power to make that kind of talk "OK" he has the power to legitimize racist and sexist insults and make it acceptable in everyday language. When he said what he said crossed the line into unacceptable use of language. He used language in a way that did violence to society as a whole and made the world a more dangerous place for some people. It is in some ways analogous to shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. Doing so endangers public safety and is not acceptable.

Ann Coulter did the same thing when she made her remark about John Edwards. She should have lost her job too, in my opinion because she abused her priveleged position in the community. The argument that because she didn't do it in her column she shouldn't be held accountable is a specious one in my opinion.

Language is a powerful thing and when used inappropriately it is a dangerous thing. When people use language negligently (as IMUS and COULTER did) they must be held accountable.

Dave

[kara speltz]

I don't often disagree with you Austin (or you Jenn) but I do this time. Imus is a public figure who is listened to by many people. I have often been enraged, disgusted, and annoyed by his opinions. I have never agreed with much of anything he said, but I never thought he should lose his job because he was silly enough to disagree with me.

However, when he referred to an entire team of young African American women as "nappy-headed hoe's" he crossed the line. He took a physical characteristic that is shared by most members of an entire CLASS of people and made it part of an insult. He denigrated a whole people based on their physical characteristic.

He also denigrated half of the human race by calling them whores. Historically, one of the ways that women were "kept in their place" was with the suggestion that any woman who was not a wife and mother was, defacto, a "whore". A man in his position has the power to make that kind of talk "OK" he has the power to legitimize racist and sexist insults and make it acceptable in everyday language. When he said what he said crossed the line into unacceptable use of language. He used language in a way that did violence to society as a whole and made the world a more dangerous place for some people. It is in some ways analogous to shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. Doing so endangers public safety and is not acceptable.

Ann Coulter did the same thing when she made her remark about John Edwards. She should have lost her job too, in my opinion because she abused her priveleged position in the community. The argument that because she didn't do it in her column she shouldn't be held accountable is a specious one in my opinion.

Language is a powerful thing and when used inappropriately it is a dangerous thing. When people use language negligently (as IMUS and COULTER did) they must be held accountable.

Dave

Absolutely agree with you Dave. As a matter of fact, I also think the other person in that discussion. I think it might have been the producer, who first used the word ho in terms of referring to the team. He too deserves to be canned as far as I can see. I've heard no mention of this anywhere. But I do remember seeing the text written out on screen and it was the other guy who first called them ho's.

Hate speech, by anyone, should not be tolerated. The problem, too often, is we're afraid to step up and complain and make waves.

kara

[Zerbie]

This is not an issue of dancing around political correctness - it's an issue of basic decency. Something that is dying in this country.

What that man said was beyond insulting to a group of talented, successful young women, and way beyond inappropriate. He denigrated them via both racial AND sexist epithets. How DARE he undermine their achievements in the minds of all his listeners by calling them all whores?!

This is no laughing matter. Too sensitive? So we should have a society where everybody walks around referring to one another by sexist, racist, homophobic epithets? What a despicable world that would be.

[tpdncr4christ]

I understand why you get upset about hate speech. But I don't understand why you can't shrug it off. I've been called nasty names, I've even had some disgusting things written on my car, but I just shrug them off. Getting these people kicked off the air is just a form of revenge, of justice. They said something stupid, so we should keep them from talking.

No. We shouldn't just destroy people every time they say something stupid, or every time they use stereotypes, because then we would be kicking everyone off the air every time they described someone. Stereotypes are true, they aren't just stereotypes because someone wanted to be mean, they all have an ounce of truth in them. Rather than kicking these people off, stop listening to them. Shrug it off, move on with your life. Don't let it hurt you. If you find yourself saying, "I take offense to that." You don't have to.

This is a country of free speech, and like it or not, hate speech is still, legally, ok. You don't like it? Get the law changed. Rather than kicking this idiot off the air, don't listen to him. Let him stay there, costing the radio station money, until they have to get rid of him. It's capitalism. Don't just take him out when he says something stupid.

Everyone keeps saying that what he said was so horrible, so offensive, that it deserves remonstrative action. Taking action like this just shows him you are listening. Act like nothing happened. Stop listening. If it offends you, don't listen. No one is forcing you to listen. I think it is ridiculous that someone can say something under the protection of freedom of speech, and then get beaten down by it. You don't like it, don't listen.

Pablo. I see what you mean, that those in power must protect those below them. Here's what I don't get. The actual amount of people in this world who are white, male, christians, in the upper to middle class, who are in charge of this world, is smaller than the gay population. Thank God I am gay, because if I wasn't gay, I would be in that "majority." If I wasn't gay, I would be part of that "majority" that isn't really a majority at all. In fact, that false "majority" is perhaps the smallest minority out their. Who protects them? They can't protect themselves, because that is white power. They can't stand up for themselves, because that is racist, or sexist, or genderist or whatever. People are prejudiced towards prejudiced people. Its a way of life. Thank God I'm gay, otherwise no one would look out for me.

Everything isn't equal. My point is, don't pretend it is. If you have a problem with what someone says, don't listen. If you have a problem with the way someone looks, don't look at them. You are in control of how you react, and reacting like half the country did just lets this guy know that half the country is listening to his crap. But if you just stop listening, than he thinks he gets away with it, and then in three months when he's out of a job, he either changes his act, or disappears. Essentially, you control your emotions. Don't let yourself get hurt, don't let yourself get offended. Shrug off the insult, wipe up your car, turn off your radio, do whatever it is you have to do not to let it get to you, and move on with your life.

[kara speltz]

Everything isn't equal. My point is, don't pretend it is. If you have a problem with what someone says, don't listen. If you have a problem with the way someone looks, don't look at them. You are in control of how you react, and reacting like half the country did just lets this guy know that half the country is listening to his crap. But if you just stop listening, than he thinks he gets away with it, and then in three months when he's out of a job, he either changes his act, or disappears. Essentially, you control your emotions. Don't let yourself get hurt, don't let yourself get offended. Shrug off the insult, wipe up your car, turn off your radio, do whatever it is you have to do not to let it get to you, and move on with your life.

Dear Austin: Sorry, but I totally disagree. First and foremost, I NEVER listen to IMUS or any other of the shock jocks. But people need to be held accountable for their offensive behavior. Zerbie said it better than I can. I will NOT TOLERATE HATE SPEECH no matter where it eminates from. Words lead to deeds as so many hate crimes have proven.

Austin, you're still young, and being in the situation you are, I understand on some level that you've learned to shrug it off, and that may well be the best protection you have at this moment. But people's silence is what allows this crap to go on. One of the first lessons we learn in Soulforce is not to be complicit with evil. And silence is complicity. Speaking out is what we are called to do.

kara

[tpdncr4christ]

If someone hits me, right across the face, what am I supposed to do? Should I ...

a.) Let the whole world know that they are a jerk who hits people
b.) Hit them back
c.) Turn the other cheeck.

I don't think we are called to speak out. I've never thought that. I have always been under the impression that God has called me to live, not to speak out. Rather than going around telling people all this, live it. This Imus guy, makes his living out of "hitting people." He gets joy from it. He thrives off of it. And he gets satisfaction, surpreme satisfaction when he knows his "hit" hurt. When we go out, and speak out, against this injustice, against this intolerance by saying "I will not tolerate hate speech," we are wrapping ourselves in a hypocritical cacoon that we can't escape from. Speaking out against him shows him that someone is listening.

Zerbie, you are absolutley right hun. The sense of decency is dieing in this country. He should never have said such horrible things, he should have been more decent. Here's the thing: You cannot force him to be decent. The only decency you have control of is your own. The only person you can control is you. You might get six thousand other people behind you, to gang up on this guy, and "force" him to be decent, but by doing so you are being indecent. As long as you have a sense of decency, it is not dead.

I'm saying, don't let it get to you. Live your life as a testament to Christ. Actions speak louder than words. Don't try and demand justice on this guy, that is not our place. That's God's place. If this Imus guy says something insulting, say "Ok, I still love you." Show him love. When he shuts his eyes, sing him love. When he shuts his ears, mourn for his loss, but move on with your life. Don't come down on him for comming down on you. Don't bear down on this individual for saying something so stupid, it gives him satisfaction.

I don't know if any of you remember a thread I posted a long while back, about how I had a conversation with this fellow "The Card Holder." He made some comment about how I had desecrated the Statue of Liberty by dressing her up in a rainbow sash. As soon as my friends saw this, they all started attacking him, saying "How dare you," and such. I didn't know what to do with it, so I sat there and watched them do this. Then, being the writer that I am, I posted a blog, a poem, about how hurt I was by his comments. He was the first to respond, and I quote:

Yay, a blog was written about me. Thanks sweetie.

*grabs your ass*

My friends reactions, my reaction, to his stupidity, to his intolerance gave him the ultimate satisfaction. He won. Because, as I look back now, no where in my responses, no where in my friends responses, no where was their any evidence of God's love.

Lets go back to this Imus guy. Lets say he says something derogatory about me, what am I supposed to do? Should I ...

a.) Speak out about his intolerance
b.) Publicly insult him back
c.) Turn the other cheeck

I just have to ask myself, what would Jesus do?

[andrewlittle]

Austin, I think you have proposed a simple solution to the problem. Now, if the world was that simple, it may be plausible. But, it ain't. It is a complex place with billions of complex people in it - many of whom have been damaged by all kinds of oppression.

What you have said it true - up to a point. Every one of us is biased - we all have and experience prejudice in one form or another. Perhaps, in a simple world, it would just be good to let that roll off our backs and allow the ignorant to hang themselves by the threads of their own hatred. But that isn't the way it works.

Discrimination is not equal to bias, prejudice or hate speech. Discrimination is any or all of those PLUS the institutionalized power to enforce the bias. Middle and upper class, white, heterosexual, educated, wealthy men - as much as a minority as they may be - possess the normative power of institutionalized bias. They earn substantially more on average than their peers in other categories. They are unreasonably represented in government, corporate and social structures. They control the vaste majority of the wealth - and therefore, power - in this country and the world at large. They are not disadvantaged by bias, unless you consider the hurt feelings that can occur.

Other people, however, are damaged by the institutionalized bias. When hate speech is uttered by members of the dominant culture, it is backed up with virtually all the factors of life. "Nappy-headed ho's" may sound like just another insult that can be dismissed out of hand, but it carries with it generations of denigration and damage.

Women have - and are still manytimes - dismissed out-of-hand when they try to gain a foothold in culture. How many female characters of significance in the Bible are whores, harlets, or conniving? Do you think that's accidental? When strong women have stepped out of culture's "rules" they have been stoned as sluts in Biblical times, burned as witches in Europe and the US in centuries past, institutionalized in mental homes as recently as the last twenty years, and continue to be killed and maimed in much of Asia, Africa and South America. It is still a common practice to circumsize a woman's clitoris or mutilate their genitalia so they cannot enjoy sex the way males can - because of they did, they would be whores. "Ho's" carries with it the centuries of violence perpetrated by dominant males against women when they try to excel at something other than "women's work."

People of color, specifically African Americans, still experience institutionalized discrimination in the workplace and other social locations. They earn 40% less than whites on average, they have far less medical resources at their disposal, they are twice as likely to be uninsured, their children die in infancy almost twice as often as whites, and they are imprisoned more often and with longer prison sentences than whites. "Nappy-headed", while easy for you to dismiss, is a direct reference to an anatomical characteristic of black people.

This asshole - a white, wealthy, heterosexual, well-educated one at that - denigrated women and people of color in one "off-hand" remark. The people he aimed that insult to where young black women who have been excelling at women's sports. Do you think that there is no institutionalized power behind this man's words? Do you not think that there are ignorant, racist, sexist men who loved hearing it and felt a little more empowered to live out their hate against people who are not like them? Do you think that young people who have been fighting uphill to make something good in their lives are not damaged by this kind of hate speech?

Well, they are. It was meant to put them in their place, and to remind a significant portion of society that it is okay to keep them in their place.

Lastly, who the heck are you - young, white man - to tell black women and their supporters to not take offense - to let it roll off their backs? Do you understand the arrogance in that? And do you see where that arrogance comes from - being white and male? If I called you, Austin, a nappy headed ho, then you could very well let it roll off your back, because it doesn't describe who society tells you that you are. But when this jerk said that about black women college athletes, he was reinforcing centuries old stereotypes, and encouraging behavior that has damaged and killed many, many people.

There are lots of stories on these boards about young GLBT people who killed themselves because of institutionalized heterosexism - are they to be dismissed as over-reactionary, Austin? After all, it's just words.

Also, while many called for his firing, none of them had the power to do that except other white, male, wealthy people. They did it, not because he offended, but because advertisers pulled their backing and money. This jerk was fired because the very power he represents found him too much of a liability. Ironic isn't it?

[Rick336]

Also, while many called for his firing, none of them had the power to do that except other white, male, wealthy people. They did it, not because he offended, but because advertisers pulled their backing and money. This jerk was fired because the very power he represents found him too much of a liability. Ironic isn't it?

Very good point.:tup:

Rick

[Daniel]

My 2 cents are actually someone else's, that is, Rev. Barbara Crafton who, at one time, was on the staff of a parish in the West Village where I sang for years and years. I adored her. A warmer, more wonderful person, who have never met. Here's her perspective on the Imus matter. What she has to say about satire and its use hits the mark. This is not unlike how I view the methods of an organization like ACTUP. Satire on a big scale. Not nonvolience per se, but effective under the right circumstances. But that's another conversation.


A LOADED GUN

Imus and I were close at one time -- I used to talk to him on the phone. In those days, you could call him up and ask him to nuke someone, and then he would play the sound of an explosion. I used to ask him to nuke my rector, and he would make me tell him why and I would make up something ridiculous. Walt needed to be nuked because he wore a plaid sportcoat to the office, I told him once, and Imus said, Okay, he's gone! and played the explosion. Is this that woman priest? he would say, back in the day when there weren't many of us, and I would own up to it. You need to get your life together, he would say, and I would agree, and then he would nuke someone. These conversations all took place on air.

Coming soon: Rex the Wonder Dog! he would say, apropos of nothing, and once in a while I would call up and ask When is Rex the Wonder Dog coming?

SOON! Imus would answer. Jeez, where do these people come from? he would ask his sidekick. I bet if I called up and asked him when Rex the Wonder Dog was coming the answer would still be SOON!!! and this was almost thirty years ago.

He was always biting. It's my memory, though, that in those days he was on the side of the underdog, poking holes in the inflated. That's what satire is: it's a redress of injustice, a sly and savage protest. It paves the way in art for things to be better than they are now in real life. I remember a piece Imus read on the air the morning after John Lennon was killed -- it was straight, no jokes on that day. It was about our culture of violence, about what we were about when a person could be killed for being a poet. It was a humane and dignified essay.

There is an essential place for satire in a society that intends to become better than it is. Satire is a powerful engine for change -- art is often the first to do what politics can do only later on. But it's a loaded gun, and needs to be handled with care. Its necessary savagery endangers it: satire isn't misanthropy. It ceases to be itself when it turns on the weak, becoming instead the propaganda arm of unjust power.

People saw this immediately in the case of the young women from Rutgers. Young people trying hard to make something wonderful of themselves aren't the ones who need deflating.



Copyright © 2007 Barbara Crafton - http://www.geraniumfarm.org

[kara speltz]

Dear Andrew: You are so on target, I wanted to stand up and cheer when I read your post. Especially the part about the power of being a white male in our society. The thing is Austin is still so young that he's not able to comprehend that yet.

Understanding white-skin privelege takes a specific kind of education that 99.9% of our people don't get today. I still trip over my own white skin privelege at times, and I've raised a black son in this country. Privelege, whether its source is racial, class, or heterosexual is something that takes a concerted effort to become aware of. But it only comes about when people who care about you are willing to challenge you on it. I've been blessed to have that in my life. It's absolutely necessary if we are ever to come to any kind of peace in this world that we make a commitment to examining how these priveleges influence our thinking. Thank you.

kara

[Zerbie]

Zerbie, you are absolutley right hun. The sense of decency is dieing in this country. He should never have said such horrible things, he should have been more decent. Here's the thing: You cannot force him to be decent.

Sweetie - I never suggested any such thing. I did not call the station or any of its advertizers about his remarks. I personally don't give s**t if some dude I've never listened to is an a**hole. I've never listened to his show and never even heard of him until this, if that conveys how on board I am with just shutting the radio off to stuff I don't care for.

I replied to your thread because you said "nappy-headed ho's" is not offensive. Yes It Is.


The only decency you have control of is your own. The only person you can control is you. You might get six thousand other people behind you, to gang up on this guy, and "force" him to be decent, but by doing so you are being indecent. As long as you have a sense of decency, it is not dead.

See above. I didn't take action against the guy personally, professionally, or politically. I said "nappy-headed ho's" is an offensive epithet.

I'm saying, don't let it get to you. Live your life as a testament to Christ. Actions speak louder than words. Don't try and demand justice on this guy, that is not our place. That's God's place. If this Imus guy says something insulting, say "Ok, I still love you." Show him love. When he shuts his eyes, sing him love. When he shuts his ears, mourn for his loss, but move on with your life. Don't come down on him for comming down on you. Don't bear down on this individual for saying something so stupid, it gives him satisfaction.



Austin, it didn't "get" to me. But saying that epithet is not offensive, did. Apparently that is not what you meant to convey - you meant to criticize the fact that there was a hue and cry to fire him from the station. Maybe - there are a few layers of issues that come into play there. Free speech. Yes. But it is also *public* speech, which raises the question of how akin this is or isn't to crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

Personally, I think it's a good sign that so many listeners responded by telling the station and its advertizers that Imus crossed a line of unacceptabilty. That is THEIR free speech too. Al Sharpton put it well - he said that if Imus has the freedom of speech to use sexist, racist epithets on the air, his public has a right to convey the fact that they will withdraw their support from the station. Ideally, we shouldn't need to have issues like this because ideally - it simply wouldn't occur to someone to glibly toss off epithets and insults. Since that ideal is obviously not in evidence in this society, people who were offended and/or who wished to speak out on their behalf, expressed their freedom of speech also.

[Diane Vera]

In my opinion, the question of what to do about hate speech is a complex one. Certainly hate speech should be strongly discouraged. But I would hate to see the U.S.A. adopt the kinds of hate speech laws they have over in Western Europe -- which would be blatantly unconstitutional here in the U.S.A. anyway.

In my opinion, a total outlawing of hate speech is not a good way to combat prejudice. If anything, it just allows the haters to paint themselves as martyred tellers of suppressed truths.

A good example is the outlawing of "Holocaust Revisionism" in much of Western Europe. In my opinion, all this accomplishes is to help convince a lot of Europeans that their governments really are controlled by an evil Jewish conspiracy that is out to cover up the historical truth. On the other hand, here in the U.S.A., where we don't have such laws, most people just think of the "Holocaust Revisionists" as cranks, if indeed they've heard of them at all; and Nazi-style anti-Jew racism is considered totally un-cool even amongst the vast majority of American right wingers (many of whom are, if anything, pro-Zionist). More generally, neo-Nazism and similar movements are much stronger throughout Europe than they are here in the U.S.A, despite their illegal status there.

(On the other hand, the U.S.A. has much more of a religious right wing than Europe has, probably because the U.S.A. has always been a haven for Europe's banned sects of religious fanatics.)

Another big problem with hate speech laws is that abusive religious groups can use them to try to silence any criticism of themselves.

So, what should be done about hate speech?

For one thing, I think it's important to distinguish between people speaking just as private citizens and people speaking in a position of responsibility over other people. For example, hate speech on the job is a form of discrimination because it creates a hostile working environment. Also, hate speech by any public official should be considered grossly unprofessional behavior and grounds for impeachment. Also, listeners to a radio station are certainly entitled to call a station to complain about hate speech on the air.

However, to outlaw hate speech altogether is to tread on very dangerous ground, in my opinion.

[BruceChris]

I largely agree with Andy. This sort of thing is totally inappropriate, and should be vigorously discouraged.

So I sent an email to MSNBC, describing Don Imus in much the same language that he used. My point was not to somehow "lower" myself, but to simply show how inappropriate such language was. I would like to think that I had some small part in his ouster.

However, a larger question would be, what about the institutions and listening public who support him? They are still out there, and as I see it, they are the real problem.

P&L, BC

[tpdncr4christ]

Perhaps indeed I am too young to fully comprehend the situation. Having only just come of age concerning adulthood, it is quite understandable that I may be mislead concerning the complexity of this larger “grown up” world. In fact, I am sure that it is my lack of life experience that has lead me to perceive a simple solution to advanced social problems. I am most certain that I have no knowledge of how things work, no understanding what so ever of how society functions.

It must be my youthful ignorance that leads me to hear the lovely rap songs which use the same horrible vocabulary that “this asshole - a white, wealthy, heterosexual, well-educated one at that -” (I hope I quoted you correctly Andrew) uses. There is no reason that he should be allowed to degenerate women of color, that is just wrong. But I see now that it is quite acceptable to degenerate your own culture, so long as you aren't offending someone of another culture; that is perfectly acceptable.

I see now that we don't get as easily offended as I thought. Some offense may be taken indeed, so a sense of Justice may be installed. It must be my age that prohibits me from understanding what Christ meant when He said, in Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged.” I was under the impression that He was telling us not to pass judgment on others, that He was telling us not to condemn them. I see now that we can judge their remarks to be hurtful, and we can bring about justice upon them without usurping God's right as the almighty Judge.

It must also be my young mind that caused me to misinterpret Christ in Mathew 5:39 “If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” I actually thought that He wanted us not to give the attacker any sense of satisfaction, that He wanted us to shrug off the hit and ask for another; how foolhardy of me. I now comprehend that He intended it only for when the attack was directed at one person, and that when a people or group is attacked, but not you, it is your right to step in, intervene, by hitting the attacker and smacking him down. It is perfectly understandable that we should help those in need by attacking their attackers. It just wouldn't make sense to offer these victims condolences or aid of any sort.

I have also realized that your generations must have some sort of ingenius quality that mine lacks, for when you were my age you were bringing about change in radical ways, ways that I'm most certain the adults of your time thought to be ridiculous, misinformed, and ignorant. I concede to your superior generation, I will never again challenge the way things work, or society for that matter. It is foolhardy, and because I don't want to be called a fool, I'll let you all solve these problems your way, just as you've been attempting to solve them for the past 50 years.

I most humbly thank all of you for teaching me such vivid life lessons, and with all sincerity offer my apologies. I did not mean to offend any by my meager, ignorant post. Again, I thank you all for passing down to me lessons that only the wrinkles on your face can prove you’ve aptly learned.

With all the respect I can muster,
Austin




PS. Daniel, you are absolutley right. Satire is an ingenious form of communication. :love: Don't kill me everyone... just trying to make a point.

[dsdrane]

What is it with you people?? I turn my back for one weekend, and someone derails our pretty choo-choo!

Austin, Darling, sarcasm is a dangerous thing and causes wrinkles. Use it with caution.

And another thing: one day, God willing, you'll be older and wiser, and it'll be your turn to attempt to explain something to a lovably precocious, but completely out-to-lunch pipsqueek.

True knowledge is acknowledging that you know squat, and learning how to listen...even when you disagree.

[u-dog]

I have also realized that your generations must have some sort of ingenius quality that mine lacks, for when you were my age you were bringing about change in radical ways, ways that I'm most certain the adults of your time thought to be ridiculous, misinformed, and ignorant. I concede to your superior generation, I will never again challenge the way things work, or society for that matter. It is foolhardy, and because I don't want to be called a fool, I'll let you all solve these problems your way, just as you've been attempting to solve them for the past 50 years.

I most humbly thank all of you for teaching me such vivid life lessons, and with all sincerity offer my apologies. I did not mean to offend any by my meager, ignorant post. Again, I thank you all for passing down to me lessons that only the wrinkles on your face can prove you’ve aptly learned.

With all the respect I can muster,
Austin

WHOOOEEE, Austin! OUCH! :eek: Not that some of these old geezers didn't deserve that. I always hated it when the Old Farts played the "age is wisdom" card. But the "other" Dave is right. Sarcasm causes wrinkles and it can come back to bite you in the ass.

The only thing I would like to remind you of is that you are standing on the shoulders of past generations of glbt people and their accomplishments. The work isn't finished but you DID get to dance with your boyfriend at the Winter Dance --a thing that would have been impossible for me or for those in the generations before me. The 50 years you mentioned? Contained more positive change for glbt people than the preceding 500 years. So... maybe... these Old Farts DO know SOMETHING. You know... maybe?


PS. Daniel, you are absolutley right. Satire is an ingenious form of communication. :love: Don't kill me everyone... just trying to make a point.

No chance of that whipper-snapper we all love you way too much for that! :love: (now, where is that emoticon for pinching a young person's cheek in a condescending way???:confused: )

Grampa Dave

[Daniel]

I most humbly thank all of you for teaching me such vivid life lessons, and with all sincerity offer my apologies. I did not mean to offend any by my meager, ignorant post. Again, I thank you all for passing down to me lessons that only the wrinkles on your face can prove you’ve aptly learned.

~

PS. Daniel, you are absolutley right. Satire is an ingenious form of communication. :love: Don't kill me everyone... just trying to make a point.

Now look what I've done! I must not know anything...I don't have any wrinkles. ;)

Now back to that first post. I hear what you're saying- of at least what I think you are saying. Which might amount to something like "Why can't we see things for what they really are and not as they seem?" Not to put words in your mouth, but that's where I hear you going.

Why can't we?

We all have egos. And as such, we all have to learn to transcend them. We have to learn to see beyond our own little fenced in yard. That doesn't happen overnight. And it's the oddest thing. To see beyond one's ego means we all have to have enough ego strength to do so. That's a paradox for ya. One has to have enough self to see the Self in one's self or another.

And until we can see and experience this Self, or the fringerprint of Love in each other, all we can see is what divides us.

You are right about one thing: nothing can touch the Self that we are. Nothing. If we are in touch with that in a deep way in our daily lives, a lot of stuff does indeed 'roll of our backs', not because we don't care, or it doesn't matter, but because we are aware of What We Are Made Of. Death cannot kill that. I believe this is one of the things that nonviolence teaches us. The ultimate nonviolent stance being to have someone attack you- even kill you- and not respond with violence. One might say JC took this to heart.

I think Andy touches on this: insofar that we don't see the privilege that we operate under, is the extent that we don't see past our homebuilt fences or egos (thank you Dr. Freud) and into the face of Love.

[revtj]

No. We shouldn't just destroy people every time they say something stupid, or every time they use stereotypes, because then we would be kicking everyone off the air every time they described someone. Stereotypes are true, they aren't just stereotypes because someone wanted to be mean, they all have an ounce of truth in them. Rather than kicking these people off, stop listening to them. Shrug it off, move on with your life. Don't let it hurt you. If you find yourself saying, "I take offense to that." You don't have to.

This is an issue that I am also conflicted about. I LOVE transgressive humor. In some contexts, it can be healing. I believe Queer Theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory) is one of the most exciting things happening in our movement today, and especially as it applies to theology. A queer reading of the Bible is liberating to me. Yet 'queer' is still a word that offends many gay people, and in certain contexts, it should.

Here is how I have resolved the issue for myself:

I am a professional. If I am in a pulpit or a hospital room and say "hey faggot!" or "you nappy-headed hos" I am way out of line and it is an offense worth losing my job over. That's why I keep pretty tight boundaries in place. I think Imus got what he deserved. Offensive? I think so.

Now, if I'm having beers with friends, I might very well say something like that because it can be funny. But that context is personal and my friends know where I stand no matter what trash talk they may hear from me for fun. Offensive? I think not.

As it was unfolding, I thought we were missing an opportunity for repentance & reconciliation with Imus, however, I later learned his radio show has ALWAYS been filled with trash talk, so I doubt his apology was sincere. I do believe the Soulforce way would ideally be to allow for apologies & reconciliation and make these into "teachable moments" for all of us.

One thing it points out is that American minorities are feeling very sensitive in this era of slash & burn media. America is past due for some serious community conversation on bigotry & hatespeech. I have found that a lot of times people have no idea why saying certain things offends people -- maybe the reason is that we've not taken the time to understand their economic and social struggles. So one big answer is LISTENING.

In the past 8 years, since the advent of Fox News, I have heard public figures & professionals say things I never thought I would hear on public airwaves. Add Rush Limbaugh and that crowd to it and it seems we've sunk to an unprecedented LOW level of public discourse. Even Nixon never publicly said what Dick Cheney said on the floor of Congress ("Go f*ck yourself!")

Therefore, I'm not buying into this argument that people who protest this kind of trash talk in public and professional venues are simply whiners. We have a right to expect a higher standard of respectful rhetoric if we believe anything in our Constitution & Declaration of Independence.

[andrewlittle]

You seem to think that Imus' rights to free speech were violated when he was fired? Is that right? And that it happened because people got uptight about what he said, and acted in retribution. Is that right?

[kara speltz]

Dear Austin: I find it really sad that you have closed your mind at such a young age. And I know you're tired of hearing your age referred to.

I do remember my own sense of thinking I knew everything when I was in my early 20s. I think it comes with the territory. But, let me say that failure to recognize our priveleges means that we unconsiously commit violence on others. And believe me ignorance is neither bliss nor an excuse.

My prayer for you is that you open your heart and listen to all the folks who have written to you here and know that what they have written is said with love to you. A true friend doesn't tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to hear.

I've told this story before in my postings, but it clearly shows who was the friend in this situation. About 10 years ago, I was in my first year of Pastoral Ministry School. I hadn't been in school in some 30 years and was having a very difficult time with studying. I had decided to drop out and all of my friends agreed with my decision. All but one, her name was Pat and she and I had been in a faith sharing group together for years.

When I told her of my decision to drop out, she looked me in the eye and said, "so all this stuff about being called to the priesthood was bullshit?" I was stunned and said no, why would you say that? She replied. "Ever since I first met you, you've been moaning and groaning about being called to the priesthood and being denied that because you were a woman. Now you have an opportunity to be a Pastoral Minister and you're dropping out because it's too hard. What do you think seminary would have been like?"

I knew immediately she was right. And I graduated from Pastoral Ministry and I learned a lot in those two additional years of study. When I graduated it was Pat I called and Pat I thanked. When I told my Pastor that story, he said wow she was brutal. And I said, yes, but I needed to hear it and she was absolutely right. I am grateful to friends who tell me the things I need to hear. I hope you will be too, Austin.

kara

[suzer1013]

It might be worth noting that the free speech rights guaranteed by the Constitution deal with the government infringing on a citizen's right of free speech.

Imus, Coulter, and anyone else has the right to say whatever they want to say. Government interference with free speech is generally reserved for extreme cases only -- starting a riot, starting a war against your government (treason), etc. An employer generally has the right to curb free speech, and it is not unconsitutional.

Just thought I'd throw that into the discussion, for what it's worth.

My humble opinion is that the reaction to Imus was way over the top. What it points out to me is that we still have serious work to do in the area of race relations in this country. But the fact that this "news" has taken precedence over the Iraq war, Darfur, the "lost" e-mails re attorney firings, etc., disgusts me. I'm not sad he's off the air (for the moment, he'll probably end up on Sirius radio anyway), but the media circus surrounding this even pushed Anna Nicole's baby daddy off the headlines! It's all so astoundingly bizarre.

Meanwhile, how many people died in Iraq last week?

[kara speltz]

Meanwhile, how many people died in Iraq last week?

Amen Suzer. I fully agree that priorities in this country are totally screwed up. But I'll have to admit, I prefer the discussion around IMUS to putting up with the Anna Nicole drama:rolleyes:

[Zerbie]

Obviously there is a serious problem. How is it that basic human decency now is viewed as "whining" and "vengeful?" Suggesting an entire society laugh off such loaded epithets WITHOUT SO MUCH AS VOICING AN OBJECTION?! Saying that hate speech is hurtful is now construed as an "attack?!?!??!!" This is nothing more than demanding human decency and compassion to shut up.

[revtj]

Obviously there is a serious problem. How is it that basic human decency now is viewed as "whining" and "vengeful?" Suggesting an entire society laugh off such loaded epithets WITHOUT SO MUCH AS VOICING AN OBJECTION?! Saying that hate speech is hurtful is now construed as an "attack?!?!??!!" This is nothing more than demanding human decency and compassion to shut up.

Exactly. If I don't like what is said, I have a constitutional right to free speech to object to what is said.

This point of law comes into play alot in LGBT struggles for equality. Church leaders and antigay industry sharks have the legal right to call us "unnatural," "abomination," "perverts," etc. And apparently they have the right to make up facts and distort data, and downright lie about us, and raise millions doing it.

But we likewise have the right to expose facts and lies and call liars making millions off our families to account. I do think the Soulforce way is NOT the Ann Coulter way and I hate it when I feel drawn into a discussion where the standards are lowered by name-calling and labeling.

In the end, I am proud that my commitment in public discourse is above trash talk and that I resolve not to engage in it if I possibly can.

So now I am going to the Betty Bowers website (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=00052bcc-sp00000000&sp-q=Ann+Coulter&sp-a=00052bcc-sp00000000) to read more hilarious comments about Ann Coulter being a pre-rehab skank. Thank God for freedom of speech! Satire has its place in a world of mean pundits! :lol: :lol:

[dsdrane]

Obviously there is a serious problem. How is it that basic human decency now is viewed as "whining" and "vengeful?" Suggesting an entire society laugh off such loaded epithets WITHOUT SO MUCH AS VOICING AN OBJECTION?! Saying that hate speech is hurtful is now construed as an "attack?!?!??!!" This is nothing more than demanding human decency and compassion to shut up.

Damn straight! (...if you'll pardon the phrase)

We need to be talking about this more, not less.

The fact that some are offended, while others are not, the fact that some are capable of letting offensive language "roll off", while others are not...it's all completely beside the point.

[kara speltz]

This has been a interesting thread. A friend of mine who runs another list serve, just this morning posted a reply about another subject all together, but it seemed appropoe to me, to this discussion, so I'll share it with all of you.

Lawrence wrote, "It takes conscious examination and effort to discover, and to clear away, the accumulation that clutters and corrupts our thinking and feeling processes. Few people, even those aware of this accretion, ever scrape down to the 'original soul' -- and it's just not possible to cleanse our minds back to a 'tabula rasa,' the clean slate we bring into the world. We humans are built to acquire knowledge and opinions and beliefs, and never to actually start over completely, except in the very rare instances of severe mental or emotional trauma. Maybe not even then. All the more important, then, for 'awake people to be awake,' as poet William Stafford writes* ... to be aware, to question and to make conscious decisions, rather than simply sit at anchor, being acted upon rather than choosing our own actions.

I believe it was one of the ancient 'fathers' (I really dislike that term) of the church (Irenaeus?) who said, "The glory of God is a human being fully alive." My interpretation of that is that God delights in, and is best revealed by, human beings making conscious, informed, personal choices based on the gifts of spirit, mind, body and psyche God has provided, alert and sensitive and making their own way, acting and risking and yes, making mistakes, but always conscious that every moment is an imperfection that makes the next moment possible, with God's love and grace the timeless envelope that keeps us from being lost.

So, dearest Austin, please don't think we're writing you off, or giving up on you. We love you dearly and simply are praying that you question some of the beliefs that come out of the lenses you wear as a gay white male in a society that is classist, racist, and heterosexist, not to mention homophobic.

It is a chore we all have to do. To take off the glasses and look at the world from a new perspective.

kara

[Daniel]

This is seriously messed up. Does any one see that? Our minority's have gotten so wrapped up in being minority's that we aren't people anymore. We are gay, or black, or christian, or white, or italian, or whatever the heck we are. I'd like to be a homosapien. Any one else see how screwed up this is? Please... thank you for allowing my vent.

In defense of what our dear Austin actually wrote, I would like to point out that his concern, as expressed above, deserves more attention. You could chalk his comment above to naivete, but I choose to see his words for what they imply, that being the spiritual truth that we are all Children of God. That's what I hear in his statement, not that Imus doesn't deserve so and so and that invective doesn't matter. It is a voice full of pain as to why things are as bad as they are- not the voice of someone who is unaware of his privilege.

For Christ's Sake, the guy actually is someone who ponders the admonition to turn the other cheek seriously.

Maybe I'm full of naivete, but I fear we're missing the forest from the trees here. Austin, like all kids his age, has something called idealism, which, if one looks closely, should not be mistaken for something else. Better to nuture that impulse towards appropriate goals than stick pins it his expression because it suits us.


~

And now for something completely different. Austin- I read this today and thought of you.

I know- casually- the subject of the article. We worked together years ago, when we were both younger, in a show called Girl Crazy (Gershwin), and have run into each other since at the Lincoln Center Library (there is a theatre/dance division there- amazing stuff actually).

Keep dancing buddy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/15/theater/15gree.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1176745351-2t+l75eYSxxkN9FypE47aA

[Alecto]

Ok. So, I've been thinking, which is very dangerous I must say, and this is what has come of it.

We get too damn offended. I mean, it seems that whenever someone says something, all the minority groups jump up and go crazy. For instance, this whole radio thing, I don't get it. He calls some black lady a whore, and black groups, white groups, feminist groups all jump out and get him kicked off the radio for three weeks. He got kicked off for doing his job, saying nasty things about people. That's what this radio host does. He says crappy mean horrible things to people and gets paid, its no different now than it was only people listened this time.

Its not just that, if I wanted to start a club for people of my similar ethnicity to come and meet and hang out and support each other, it would be ok if we were gay, if we were black, if we were jewish, or christian, but if I was white, forming a white club, that would be racist, people would look down on us, they would call us KKK and such. We would get treated horribly, be victims of prejudice and discrimination.

This is seriously messed up. Does any one see that? Our minority's have gotten so wrapped up in being minority's that we aren't people anymore. We are gay, or black, or christian, or white, or italian, or whatever the heck we are. I'd like to be a homosapien. Any one else see how screwed up this is? Please... thank you for allowing my vent.



For the radio guy: There's finally actual consequences for public figures in our media being blatantly racist. I don't see that as a bad thing.

As for starting a white people club: if the common experience you're building around is "whiteness", then yes that's offensive. Because that experience is one of privilige, and not much else. However, if you wanted an ETHNIC (note the difference from RACE) group that involved an ethnicity that is usually white, that shouldn't be a problem. My school had an Irish Student Union for awhile, and no one complained, no discrimination, no treated horribly... It was just another cultural organization.

[dsdrane]

Daniel (et al.), I'm the first to admit that I really don't "know" Austin, but I've certainly gathered that he's a neat, thinking guy and someone many (if not all in this forum) like very much and regard highly.

That said, I took some serious umbrage this morning while reading his bitterly sarcastic diatribe aimed directly at his target: you all. And, frankly, I really don't care whether he was pushing buttons on purpose (a Jonathan Swift moment?) or just immaturely using sarcasm to strike back from the losing side of an argument he himself started.

Bottom line: the tone was snotty and I think an apology is in order. One guy's opinion.

[kara speltz]

In defense of what our dear Austin actually wrote, I would like to point out that his concern, as expressed above, deserves more attention. You could chalk his comment above to naivete, but I choose to see his words for what they imply, that being the spiritual truth that we are all Children of God. That's what I hear in his statement, not that Imus doesn't deserve so and so and that invective doesn't matter. It is a voice full of pain as to why things are as bad as they are- not the voice of someone who is unaware of his privilege.
For Christ's Sake, the guy actually is someone who ponders the admonition to turn the other cheek seriously.



Dear Daniel: I don't often disagree with you but I really do on this. Where Austin is coming from is absolutely, I believe, from a place of privilege. He hasn't a clue of what it means to be white and male in society today. But then again neither do 98% of the white males. He talks about a color blindness that does not exist and then like that Connelly fellow tries to overturn affirmative action by claiming its not needed.

Andrew is one of the few who I ever see acknowledge the ever present issue of privilege. It's one of the things I particularly respect about him. And Austin's last post was very insulting, as dsdrane pointed out.

Yes Austin claims to want us to turn the other cheek, but it's not about white men turning the other cheek. What he wants is for people of color and women to shut the heck up and stop standing up for their rights.

Turning the other cheek is not about being passive. The story has some very interesting roots that most people don't comprehend. When the story was written there was only one possible way to hit a person who was considered inferior and that was with the back of your right hand. So if you turned the other cheek, they couldn't hit you with the back of their right hand, they were forced to meet you as an equal.

There are times when I feel so incredibly frustrated with the state of people's awareness. It feels to me that there is almost no commitment to becoming aware of and resisting our privilege whether it's the privilege we experience as American's who rip off the resources of the rest of the world, or white skin, male, or class privilege. We're so damn comfortable with it, why would we ever want to give it up. But as people who take seriously their faith, it seems to me, to be our greatest failing.

kara

[u-dog]

You know, David, we old folks were laying on the "we're older and wiser and we know better" thing a little thick and Austin just laddled it back ... maybe a little heavy on the sarcasm... maybe not, but all in all I didn't think that it was out of line. We've all known each other a while now and I for one know when I'm loved and respected by others and when I'm not. No alarm bells went off for me.

"other" Dave

[dsdrane]

You know, David, we old folks were laying on the "we're older and wiser and we know better" thing a little thick and Austin just laddled it back ... maybe a little heavy on the sarcasm... maybe not, but all in all I didn't think that it was out of line. We've all known each other a while now and I for one know when I'm loved and respected by others and when I'm not. No alarm bells went off for me.

"other" Dave

Maybe so, U-Dave, maybe so....

But if I had opened a mouth to one of my esteemed elders the way he did, you'd be looking a somewhat young-looking 40-year-old with a size 12 pump sticking out of his forehead.

I'm just sayin'....

[u-dog]

I am known to be an old softie ... whatcha gonna do? ;)

[nmwolfboy]

i'm FINALLY done applying moisturizer to my poor, wrinkled brow, which took so long that i missed out one this entire thread until now - the only gem i have to share relating to the Imus hoo-hah is a link to an Op-Ed piece in the NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/opinion/13fierstein.html?ex=1334116800&en=dc7d3b4aba71448d&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink).

Not new to some of you, i'm sure, but it nicely treats a perspective that i share. I'm 43 for another few weeks - do i qualify as an old geezer yet?

Pax,

scott

[dsdrane]

..and I (and others) love you for the old softie that you are and profess to be; we all have our roles, yes?

But, u-dog, the man whom I've come to expect to be the voice of reason and wisdom (and I'm not blowing smoke up your tuschie, here; I mean it), why are you giving our young Austin a "walk" here?

[For the record, no sports analogy was abused in the making of this post.]

Also, for the record, I have no desire to give Austin a hard time; I like him, too. But that like of him isn't going to keep me, like so many ladies hanging out the window to scold, from telling him I think he's being a dummkopf.

Why are you sparing the metaphorical rod? Why aren't we taking him over our metaphorical knee? I think Gandhi, himself, would have given him a schmack.

Ideology is fine...as long as it can be backed up by reason...and experience and tolerance. Austin's lament doesn't cut it.

Let's not be weenies, folks! I told my mother what's what; I'm hardly going to shirk my duty to tell some 20-something what's what. Give me a blessed break! And shame on the rest of you for letting this one pass.

Step up!

[dsdrane]

Austin:

Since I’m a second-class citizen — a gay man — my seats for the ballgame of American discourse are way back in the bleachers. I don’t have to wait long for a shock jock or stand-up comedian to slip up with hateful epithets aimed at me and mine. Hate speak against homosexuals is as commonplace as spam. It’s daily traffic for those who profess themselves to be regular Joes, men of God, public servants who live off my tax dollars, as well as any number of celebrities.

Allow me to introduce you to an actor of the screen and stage, much beloved and much respected. Perhaps you know his tell-tale voice? His famous movie -- my coming-out movie -- must have come out about the time you were, what, an infant? And you have the unmitigated gall to tell me with what and from whom I should be offended?? Honestly, are you mad? Do you have absolutely no clue? You may find others willing to forgive ignorance...but not me. If you come swinging a sword, you had better know why you're swinging and for whom.

I have no time for this.

[tpdncr4christ]

Let's see. You all got my heart ticking, something that I've noticed happens at strange times. I felt my heart when the cop pulled me over for speeding, 60 in a 45... I felt my heart ticking when my grandma died. I felt my heart ticking when I wrote the first scene of my play. I felt my heart ticking when I went to the principal's office for the first time. I just felt it again. It's an amazing feeling. A terrifying feeling.

I hear you.

It would take pages to respond to each of you individually, but I'd like to publicly respond to the things I remembered, the things that struck me. I'll try not to be so frustratingly sarcastic, I promise.

Generally, to Kara and Andrew. I love you both. I hear what you are saying. Privilege. I am a very privileged individual. Do not assume I take it for granted. I have my own car. I have one desktop computer, one laptop, and one Macintosh power book. I have a TV in my room. I have my own room. I have hot water in the morning for my shower. I have food in front of me every day, three square meals, sometimes four. I have a ceiling fan attached to my ceiling, which means there is a roof over my head. I have a bed, with three pillows. I have enough clothes in my closet to cover every guy in my graduating senior class. I am very blessed.

Do not assume I do not count my blessings.

Putting material blessings aside, I know who I am. I have no doubts about who I want to be. I am blessed in that I know what kind of legacy I wish to leave on this earth when I leave. I am indeed blessed. Privileged, as you would say.

Do not assume I do not count my blessings.

I am not perfect. In no way shape or form. I won't pretend to be a perfect Christian, and I'll ask you to do the same. I haven't listened to Christ. I still have a shirt on my back. Sure, I give to those in need, I tithe to my Church, I offer hours of community service, but I am still not listening to Christ. I still live in a house. There are many blessings I keep for myself.

I never said I was any more privileged than these women. I never asked them to shut up as you said. Do not put words in my mouth. There is nothing more despicable than placing words in my mouth. As seen here:

Yes Austin claims to want us to turn the other cheek, but it's not about white men turning the other cheek. What he wants is for people of color and women to shut the heck up and stop standing up for their rights.

Never did I ask for these women to shut up. Never did I say they didn’t deserve every ounce of recognition they receive. Never did I say that Immus was in the right to say what he said.

If you’ll remember, at the beginning of this post my complaint was that I felt we as a society to get involved with an insult, that we get too offended by something that shouldn’t bother us. We are too wrapped up in our political correctness, too afraid of stepping on someone else’s toes that we don’t even lift our feet any more.

I never whished for passiveness. Perhaps I am saying it wrong. Live your life in defiance of the fact that a man has hit you. Live your life in defiance of the fact that every weight is stacked on your shoulders. If you can take a blow, and live through it, you are stronger for it. I never asked them not to get hurt. It hurts when you are hit. It sucks when you are hit. It makes your heart tick. I never said they shouldn’t get hurt. I want them to have the strength not to care about remarks that aren’t true.

Kara. I am sorry. But I can’t sit idly by and have you talk about me like I’m not even there. I cannot have you misquote me. I cannot have you pre-judge me based on my age. I cannot have you sit there and tell me my mind is closed, when you refuse to listen to what I am saying. I do not condone hypocritical behavior.

I wrote that horribly satirical response to get your attention. Just like the “God Hates a Fag” guy, the one who pissed everyone off when he made that music video. I got your attention. I’m sorry if I hurt you, but you weren’t listening to what I had to say. Now I know you are at least listening.

I find it amazing that I can post a thread about how I think people get offended too easily, and then everyone responds saying, “I’m offended you think I get offended to easily.” Does that strike any one else as odd?

I’m sorry that you have misread my postings. I know what I’m trying to say, and I just can’t figure out how to say it. I don’t want to be a part of a discussion where my age plays a part in the validity of my words. If I say something you agree with, I’m an old soul who will do great things in this world. If I say something you disagree with, I’m a close minded ignorant child, who doesn’t realize what God has given him. I am not offended that you think this. I am hurt. Terribly hurt.

The funny thing is, my history teacher had responded to Immus in the classroom, saying people today get too offended at smart remarks like that. I was simply reiterating his idea on this forum. I agree with it, but it is the idealism of a 42 year old well educated black man. I guess he doesn’t know how privileged he is either.

You are right. I thought this was a safe place, a place that would show me God’s grace and love. I feel more like its been torn from me. Maybe it’s my own fault. Maybe it isn’t. I am not offended. Just hurt. And I am sorry, but I don’t feel like I should continue this discussion if everything I say is going to be shot down so immediately by so many people.

And Dsdrane, I am sorry I offended you. But you can’t come in this thread assuming you are in the right. But I have one question before you swing your metaphorical rod, when does speaking my mind call for punishment.

I am sorry, again, to everyone, but I cannot continue this discussion if I continue to be treated like this. I apologize, sincerely. Perhaps someday I’ll figure out how to say what I want to say, and we might reopen dialogue. I’ll leave you with some very wise words:

If you come swinging a sword, you had better know why you're swinging and for whom.

[Zerbie]

Neither did you once acknowledge that what was said IS offensive. In fact, the title you chose for this thread says that you don't see it as offensive at all. [/COLOR]


I
I find it amazing that I can post a thread about how I think people get offended too easily, and then everyone responds saying, “I’m offended you think I get offended to easily.” Does that strike any one else as odd?

That is not how I see this thread unfolding. This isn't about US being insulted. It's about whether or not we have the decency to speak out on behalf of our neighbors' humanit, and about the fact that you find expressions of common human decency and caring as vengeful and inappropriate.

I don't think the reactions/responses posted here all go along the lines of individual forum members being offended by the epithet. Rather, a lot of concern has been expressed for the fact that you do not perceive the offensive in the epithet used, and further, you've suggested that all the people who in good conscience spoke out against such despicable language are all "whiners" on a mission of attack and revenge. Who has been teaching you that people should sit down and shut up? Who has been teaching you that complicity with despicable language, put-downs, and epithets is Christ-like, and that speaking out against them is inappropriate??

I am not offended that you think this. I am hurt. Terribly hurt.

I am sorry you feel hurt Austin. You are a brilliant young man with many beautiful gifts (exquisite poems, for one.) Like your other friends here, I love you. :love: But I have (obviously) been very angered by what you wrote here, and I think I've aptly expressed why. It doesn't mean I want you to feel pain,:'( or to leave this community.:( I've been wracking my brain today for just what it is about what you posted that roused my anger to the degree it did - as I see it now, it's the implication that somehow, you've come to believe it's not only okay to allow hateful epithets to go unchallenged (note I didn't say "unpunished"), but that it is Christlike to do so, and that to challenge blatant, horribly offensive bigotry is to stray from the ideals of compassion and love. But how grievously it strays from love to watch someone use words to hurt our neighbors while we sit silently by!

The funny thing is, my history teacher had responded to Immus in the classroom, saying people today get too offended at smart remarks like that. I was simply reiterating his idea on this forum. I agree with it, but it is the idealism of a 42 year old well educated black man. I guess he doesn’t know how privileged he is either.

Very interesting. Then this was not your own idea? Did he say the remark was "not offensive?" What was his full interpretation on the event?

You are right. I thought this was a safe place, a place that would show me God’s grace and love. I feel more like its been torn from me. Maybe it’s my own fault. Maybe it isn’t. I am not offended. Just hurt. And I am sorry, but I don’t feel like I should continue this discussion if everything I say is going to be shot down so immediately by so many people.
:

Yeah, most of us disagree with you. Passionately. Sometimes relationships suck. I felt hurt reading this thread also. It raises more than one important issue, matters which obviously need to be discussed. Clearly we have some fairly big problems with our society, of which the matters under discussion are symptomatic. You've just unearthed them.

[Daniel]

I never said I was any more privileged than these women. I never asked them to shut up as you said. Do not put words in my mouth. There is nothing more despicable than placing words in my mouth. As seen here:

Never did I ask for these women to shut up. Never did I say they didn’t deserve every ounce of recognition they receive. Never did I say that Immus was in the right to say what he said.

If you’ll remember, at the beginning of this post my complaint was that I felt we as a society to get involved with an insult, that we get too offended by something that shouldn’t bother us. We are too wrapped up in our political correctness, too afraid of stepping on someone else’s toes that we don’t even lift our feet any more.

I never whished for passiveness. Perhaps I am saying it wrong. Live your life in defiance of the fact that a man has hit you. Live your life in defiance of the fact that every weight is stacked on your shoulders. If you can take a blow, and live through it, you are stronger for it. I never asked them not to get hurt. It hurts when you are hit. It sucks when you are hit. It makes your heart tick. I never said they shouldn’t get hurt. I want them to have the strength not to care about remarks that aren’t true.

You want people to have the stength to not to care about remarks that aren't true, to live in defiance of that which hurts one. However, that's different than wanting people not to care about injustice and words which demean and hurt others. And I think the issue on this thread is the perception that you are advocating the latter.

I may be get myself into an area where I don't belong, but I have to ask, how much of your own life situation is at play here? What's going on inside you that you express the thought that one should buck-up and just deal with things?

If you are feeling pain, walling it off with the thought that it is going to make you stronger only means that you are running away from that pain. Pain is pain. Suffering is suffering.

The response to pain and suffering is compassion. Buck-up talk tells the person in pain that their suffering isn't real. But that isn't true.

I hope the Christians among us will not mind the following, but the Buddha taught that there was suffering and the suffering of suffering. Both are plenty 'real' to those going through that suffering. And while suffering might be seen as unreal from an existential point of view, the response to suffering is of necessity more than an existential posture. It must be real and in real time. Putting off a response to suffering only deadens one. And that makes for more suffering.

[kara speltz]

Yeah, most of us disagree with you. Passionately. Sometimes relationships suck. I felt hurt reading this thread also. It raises more than one important issue, matters which obviously need to be discussed. Clearly we have some fairly big problems with our society, of which the matters under discussion are symptomatic. You've just unearthed them.

Dear Zerbie: You've expressed my own thoughts so eloquently. Austin, I'm sorry if I misunderstood some of what you wrote. But like Zerbie, I was deeply bothered by the lack of compassion expressed in your posting. I also continue to believe from your response, that you don't yet comprehend that the privilege you experience as a white male, is at the cost (a very expensive cost) to those who do not share that privilege.

Yes, you say you know you're blessed and gratitude is important. But at some point people have to be willing to let go of those privileges, so that others are no longer oppressed.

No matter what though, you are loved, and I suspect that's the thing you need to hear now.

kara

[Daniel]

I also continue to believe from your response, that you don't yet comprehend that the privilege you experience as a white male, is at the cost (a very expensive cost) to those who do not share that privilege.



How about we let the guy lick his wounds for Christ's Sake! Your words above come across like a slap in the face. Is that what you really want to say? I hope not.

A dog with a bone....

[u-dog]

Can I pause a minute here to reflect on process and the nature of community... especially THIS community?

Several of you have commented that you look back over this thread and experience hurt. I look back over this thread and feel intense pride in and love for the people who have been involved in this thread. Do you all realize how EXTREMELY F***ING RARE a conversation like this is? Where people argue passionately for what they believe and yet maintain their affection and respect for one another? Where people from their teens to their 60's can speak and be heard? Where speaking the truth is more important than not making waves? Where "love" and "nice" are not synonymous?

I LOVE THIS PLACE AND I LOVE YOU GUYS !!

I disagree with Austin (I was the first to say so, BTW) but I am so F***ING proud of him you'd think I had something to do with producing him. I agree with Pablo. If I had been HALF as articulate and mature as he is when I was 18 I shudder to think what I would be like now (with all of my wisdom and experience :cool: ) I would be insufferable. Spank him, David? I want to pin a medal on him!

I agree with Kara and love her to pieces ... but she pisses me off sometimes and has in this thread more than once.

I admire Zerbie and her passion so much and watch with wonder as she continues to try to articulate that passion to Austin without breaking the bonds of friendship.


Do you want to know what we are experiencing in this thread??? Its NOT a breakdown of community! IT IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF COMMUNITY. Making mistakes and being forgiven, over-stepping boundaries and apologizing for it, articulating our experience and passion because we so much want others to "get it". This is the "BELOVED COMMUNITY" and people all over LONG TO EXPERIENCE IT but don't have the guts to fight through the superficial crap to get to it.

Look around and COUNT YOUR BLESSING brothers and sisters !!



OK, you can resume the argument now, I've had my rant

[nmwolfboy]

And bless you for ranting, u-dog! :rainbow:

Pax,

scott

[kara speltz]

Can I pause a minute here to reflect on process and the nature of community... especially THIS community?

Several of you have commented that you look back over this thread and experience hurt. I look back over this thread and feel intense pride in and love for the people who have been involved in this thread. Do you all realize how EXTREMELY F***ING RARE a conversation like this is? Where people argue passionately for what they believe and yet maintain their affection and respect for one another? Where people from their teens to their 60's can speak and be heard? Where speaking the truth is more important than not making waves? Where "love" and "nice" are not synonymous?

I LOVE THIS PLACE AND I LOVE YOU GUYS !!

I disagree with Austin (I was the first to say so, BTW) but I am so F***ING proud of him you'd think I had something to do with producing him. I agree with Pablo. If I had been HALF as articulate and mature as he is when I was 18 I shudder to think what I would be like now (with all of my wisdom and experience :cool: ) I would be insufferable. Spank him, David? I want to pin a medal on him!

I agree with Kara and love her to pieces ... but she pisses me off sometimes and has in this thread more than once.

I admire Zerbie and her passion so much and watch with wonder as she continues to try to articulate that passion to Austin without breaking the bonds of friendship.


Do you want to know what we are experiencing in this thread??? Its NOT a breakdown of community! IT IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF COMMUNITY. Making mistakes and being forgiven, over-stepping boundaries and apologizing for it, articulating our experience and passion because we so much want others to "get it". This is the "BELOVED COMMUNITY" and people all over LONG TO EXPERIENCE IT but don't have the guts to fight through the superficial crap to get to it.

Look around and COUNT YOUR BLESSING brothers and sisters !!



OK, you can resume the argument now, I've had my rant

Dear Dave: you've summed it up so well. Sorry if I piss you off, I obviously pissed off Daniel too. I've too have been very pissed off as well as very frustrated, during this dialogue. At the same time, I personally think this has been a very intense and wonderful dialogue. I don't think there's been one posting that hasn't acknowledged our love for one another despite the frustrations and anger. And that's really amazing when you think about it. I suspect just about everyone on this thread has expressed a bit of frustration and anger, but as you said, this is indeed the BELOVED COMMUNITY.

kara

[dsdrane]

I'm reminded of an article I read in the paper this weekend of a local Jewish family who left Florida to settle in an Israeli-occupied part of Palestine. In e-mails home, she described older Israeli women who thought nothing of scolding her for allowing her children outside with their jackets unzipped. This shocked her at first, of course, but she later came to understand that the admonishment came from love.

I would like to offer you (and others) an apology for moments when, my Irish very much up...really up, I wandered into "ass" territory. It wasn't my intention...I prefer to think of myself an older Israeli woman.

I'm weird that way.

I am not perfect. In no way shape or form. I won't pretend to be a perfect Christian, and I'll ask you to do the same.

Neither am I...and agreed.



I’m sorry that you have misread my postings. I know what I’m trying to say, and I just can’t figure out how to say it. I don’t want to be a part of a discussion where my age plays a part in the validity of my words.

We all know that words are powerful. And like any tool, they can be used as a weapon. Whether you meant to or not, your words were not unlike a very large bat strongly swung into a big, fat beehive, and you shouldn't be surprised that this started the bees a-buzzin'.

Austin, we did not misread; you mis-wrote. If you recall, I'm the one who opened the door to the possibility you were throwing a Jonathan Swift at us, but that I didn't care, because, regardless, what you wrote was rude.

As far as age is concerned, it's no different from your race, your sex, your whatever. It's part of the mix...you can't arbitrarily remove it from the equation.

You are right. I thought this was a safe place, a place that would show me God’s grace and love. I feel more like its been torn from me. Maybe it’s my own fault. Maybe it isn’t. I am not offended. Just hurt. And I am sorry, but I don’t feel like I should continue this discussion if everything I say is going to be shot down so immediately by so many people.

And Dsdrane, I am sorry I offended you. But you can’t come in this thread assuming you are in the right. But I have one question before you swing your metaphorical rod, when does speaking my mind call for punishment.

I guess you and I (and others perhaps) would disagree about what constitutes "safe" in this context. If by safe you mean you can swing a bat at the beehive without upsetting or getting stung by the bees, then, no, this is not a safe place. And what of the safety of others...others who read/listened to you, took you at face value, and responded in good faith, only to be told it was just an experiement and then have the plug pulled on the conversation you yourself started? Where's the safety for those left holding the bag?

There will be those who will write to beg your forgiveness and assuage your hurt...which is probably a good thing, because we're all a family. And I am sorry for my particular overzealousness. However, I'm not sorry for taking you to task on this, and if I'm disliked for that, then that's just a cross I'll have to bear.

[tpdncr4christ]

Ok. Let's see if a day's thinking has allowed my mind to breathe... I feel now like I'm being listened too... so, here is the new revised question:

What makes this comment, what is the word Zerbie uses allot, epitaph?, what makes this epitaph from this guy so much more unfeasible, that such an uproar is caused by it? Doesn’t he, or didn’t he, make his living off of insulting people? He insulted politicians and homosexuals, white people and black people, women and men (from what I understand); what makes this one comment stand out enough to get the whole country talking about him? What makes this comment, this phrase, so different from the others? Why did we get offended at this, and not the rest?

[andrewlittle]

Ok. Let's see if a day's thinking has allowed my mind to breathe... I feel now like I'm being listened too... so, here is the new revised question:

What makes this comment, what is the word Zerbie uses allot, epitaph?, what makes this epitaph from this guy so much more unfeasible, that such an uproar is caused by it? Doesn’t he, or didn’t he, make his living off of insulting people? He insulted politicians and homosexuals, white people and black people, women and men (from what I understand); what makes this one comment stand out enough to get the whole country talking about him? What makes this comment, this phrase, so different from the others? Why did we get offended at this, and not the rest?
Dictionary.com:
sat·ire – noun
1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.

Imus' stock in trade used to be satire - many times raunchy, I'll grant you, but satire none the less. There are others out there on the radio waves who don't stop at satire, and use flaming insults and derogation as their weapons - some for shock value ratings like Stern, some for political statements like Limbaugh. Generally, however, they still go for targets who they believe, have committed some folly or transgression against their own particular beliefs, ideals or delusions (you pick).

The more extreme variety, like those mentioned above, have sponsors that generally want to appeal to their particular brand of listeners. Their sponsors are largely either very appealing to conservatives (Limbaugh & Stern) or edgy, flamboyant businesses (Stern).

Imus' sponsors included very mainstream companies - companies that appeal to a wide swath of the general public. That is because, in the past, Imus' satire was commentary on people who misused power, overstepped boundaries, said stupid things insulting other people, etc. I have never liked his show, largely because his satire got too close to the edge sometimes - it had a severe bite to it. He has crossed the line many times, and has been called on it by the public and sponsors - and he has apologized.

When Imus called black, female, college athletes "nappy-headed ho's", that wasn't satire. What folly did they commit? What vice? What mistake? What did they do to deserve the title bestowed on them by Imus? Nothing as far as I can tell, except to lose playing Tennessee. Imus described the Rutgers players as rough looking, with tatoos, and then followed up with his now famous comment.

What he did was show his stripes - sexist and racist - through commentary that was supposed to be funny, but not satirical. He denigrated them because they were black, female athletes who evidently didn't line up with his idea of feminity, race or athleticism. It doesn't qualify as satire, because they didn't do anything wrong (except be who they are), didn't say anything stupid, didn't use power wrongly, or anything else that would qualify them to be publicly ridiculed. He did it because he could - and displayed a great deal of bias in the process.

Despite the outcry, which also happens a lot with people like Stern and Limbaugh BTW, the people complaining didn't get Imus fired. The sponsors, who were concerned that Imus insulted women, blacks, and people who don't like hate-speech, are the ones that forced his firing by pulling their advertising dollars. This is how capitalism works. This is how sponsorship works. Sponsors support shows that appeal to their customers - and Imus' listeners were mainstream people who bought cars, Proctor and Gamble products and the like.

Imus wasn't censored. He can say what he wants, when he wants. But without sponsors, he doesn't get to say it on the public airwaves. He will be back, I have no doubt. And he will be back, sponsored by companies who like the kind of shock radio that Stern does. That's also the way capitalism works. He will now appeal to a different kind of listener. The kind who isn't interested in, or doesn't understand, satire - but loves dirt-flinging and insults.

[dsdrane]

What makes this comment, this phrase, so different from the others? Why did we get offended at this, and not the rest?

We did get offended at the other stuff, but few knew about it because it wasn't carried in the national media. Thanks to 24-hour programming and especially the internet, there has been a revolution in news reporting. Things that were not news now are. Stories that were not being widely reported can be now. The blogs help to keep the Big Boys honest. There is more oversight and more accountability.

Imus got slammed because more people (not just his audience or the FCC) found out about his petit faux pas.

In short, the times, they are changin', and it's going to be harder and harder for the bad people to find dark corners to hide in.

And that's a good thing.

[Daniel]

Andy's thesis echoes the perspective of Barbara Crafton which I posted earlier on this thread, a perspective which I share. Satire can cut both ways. Into the heart of injustice or back into the heart of the one wielding the blade.

[Zerbie]

EPITHET. Not epitaph.

An epithet is a degrading term for a human being, usually (always?) based on a trait that person has, such as 'Ho'" for a female, the N word for a black person, the F word for a gay man, etc.

An epitaph is the short phrase carved onto a tombstone in remembrance of the dead.

The two words really sound alike and folks mix them up often. But it's better if we don't. :p

[dsdrane]

I wouldn't be opposed to an epithet for Imus' epitaph....

(For the show, people...for the show!)

-d.