So is the bible really not clear?

[Why-Lord-Why?]

First I would like to say i'm not here to attack anybody. Just please read this with an open mind and an open heart.

I have read the booklet "What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality"

I do agree with Mel White that people (both gay and non-gay) do not search the scriptures enough in there beliefs. Sadly that's about all I agree with Rev. White on. :(

I firgured this might be the best way to talk the Mel in the open, so I would love to here back from him.

On page 8 of the booklet you said that "the Bible condems sexual practices that we accept"

Question why do we accept it if the bible condems it?

Mel said "The bible is a book about God, not about Human sexuality"

The bible is not just a book it is THE book.
The bible is our instructions before leaving this earth.

So let me just start with asking where do you get your moral value if not from the bible? :confused:


I would very much appreciate a reply from anyone,
Why-Lord-Why?

[Rick336]

The bible is our instructions before leaving this earth.

Really? What does the talking donkey instruct us to do?

Rick

[Daniel]

Hello 'Why',

Actually, the text that you quote as being on page 8 is actually on page 7. Here's the whole sentence.

In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.

Your question answers itself if you will re-read the first part of the sentence. If you think about the sexual practices that the bible accepts, that would include having more than one wife. Perhaps we should make polygamy legal. That would be biblical and perhaps moral from a literalist point of view.

Here are some of the sexual practices Dr. White quotes.


• DEUTERONOMY22:13-21 If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
• DEUTERONOMY22:22 If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
• MARK10:1-12 Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
• LEVITICUS18:19 The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
• MARK12:18-27 If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
• DEUTERONOMY25:11-12 If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

I believe the point Dr. White is trying to make is that modern Christians are pretty picky about what they accept and reject in the bible. We wouldn't be doing any of the above, would we?

Oh.....before I forget: Jesus condemned divorce. That's another 'sexual practice', you might say. Modern believers, its seems, give themselves a pass there too, while condemning the loving and consensual relationships of gay people.

Seems mightly convenient.

It's way too easy to cast stones about 'other' people's morality.

Let me be frank here: your question "why do we accept it if the bible condems it?" seems to refer to homosexuality, what else could 'it' mean here? You might as well have written "why do we accept homosexuality when the bible condemns it". That's what you're really trying to get at, right? Why beat around the bush?

Let me ask you this. Why don't we simply accept the verses above? Why aren't we stoning people?

When you can answer that question for yourself you'll have your answer.

[Rick336]

Really? What does the talking donkey instruct us to do?

Why,

I owe you an apology. You ask that we read your questions with an open mind and an open heart and that you were not here to attack anybody.

My one-line response to you was a sarcastic remark about the talking donkey in the Bible. I apologize for not respecting your request.

By your post it sounds as if you might believe that the Bible is an inerrant instruction book on how to get into heaven. I don't. I have read a lot of the Bible and it is full of errors. Hundreds of them in fact.

Numbers 22 is a story about a donkey that has a conversation with its rider. I think the donkey asked his rider, "Why are you beating me with that stick?" And then he said some other stuff.

If we are to believe that the Bible is the absolute truth without error then we have to believe that a donkey actually spoke a human language.

I've been around for 55 years and I've known a lot of animals. Not a single one has ever said anything to me besides meow or moo or quack or woof. Except for a parrot my uncle had. He used to cuss. But he was only repeating what he had heard my uncle say.

It looks like to me that the night Jesus was born would have been a perfect time for the animals in the stable to speak up. There was a donkey there. He could have shouted "Hallelujah!" or "Merry Christmas!" But he didn't. He just stood there and kept his mouth shut.

Maybe the only time you can get a donkey to talk is if you beat him with a stick until he finally shouts, "CUT THAT OUT!!" But my guess is that it aint going to happen.

And I don't believe it ever has.

Rick

[Emproph]

First I would like to say i'm not here to attack anybody. Just please read this with an open mind and an open heart.

I hope you're coming back. And I can't promise I won't get angry with you or judge you unfairly. But people like me are desperate for answers from people like you – where you're coming from, etc.

But please don't take that as a need for a witness of faith. That's perhaps the worst insult to a person of faith that there is.

I realize though that many people do take that position, and that a civil dialogue regarding such sensetive matters is important. I would only ask that you make sure to be aware of what is offensive and what is not. Wounds are raw.

If you're not sure, just say so.
If you're not sure, ask.
If you're really not sure, private message someone and ask (preferably a monitor, or someone in this discussion).

Your questions have been answered many times over on this forum in many different ways. In order to answer them fairly, we really need to know where you're coming from.

You asked:
So let me just start with asking where do you get your moral value if not from the bible?
So many ask that exact question. I would ask what you mean by "moral value?" Surely you're not suggesting that the morality of not hurting others unnecessarily is exclusive to the Bible.

Are you?

[u-dog]

The bible is not just a book it is THE book.
The bible is our instructions before leaving this earth.

So... where in the Bible does the Bible claim to be our "instructions before leaving this earth"? Where in the Gospels does Jesus say "Wait a little while and God will send you an instruction manual to tell you what to do?" I remember "Lo, I will be with you always, even until the end of the age." I remember a promise to send us the Holy Spirit as an advocate and guide, but I don't remember the thing about "an instruction manual"




So let me just start with asking where do you get your moral value if not from the bible? :confused:

I get my moral value by virtue of being created in the image of God and by virtue of Christ's willingness to sacrifice his life for me.

I get my moral valueS from the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ who is the Son of the Living God. He is my moral compass. Scripture bears witness to his life and purpose. THAT is its purpose. Jesus gave us a simple way to discern between true and false teachers, true and false teachings, true and false choices, in the Gospel of Matthew. "Good trees bear good fruit. Bad trees bear bad fruit"

He also suggested a fool-proof way to interpret scripture: Love God with your WHOLE SELF and Love your neighbor as yourself. The whole of the law and the prophets hangs on these two things. The law (the 5 books of Moses) and the Prophets WERE the Bible in Jesus day.

[scott snedeker]

First I would like to say i'm not here to attack anybody. Just please read this with an open mind and an open heart.
The bible is not just a book it is THE book.
The bible is our instructions before leaving this earth.

So let me just start with asking where do you get your moral value if not from the bible? :confused:


I would very much appreciate a reply from anyone,
Why-Lord-Why?


How about a reply from a Buddhist or Pagan like me.

My spirituality and moral value comes my connection to my inner-spirit that loves me unconditionally. That means Just the way I am with no judgement or conditions.

I am already in heaven when I am in connection with the unconditional love of my Heart of innoccence. My love of self naturally extends to love of others without effort.

I view the Bible a nothing more than a test of this connection. If a verse activates unconditional love for myself and others then it is a true touchstone. If it causes guilt or shame or hate then it is spiritual poison to be avoided until my connection to my inner spirit is strong enough to trivalize it properly.

I believe all living things have an awareness and are connected through an awareness. We all part of the design. I honor that design by living true to my nature, The nature of a gay man who loves men. This makes me a pagan.

My symbol of this connection to my nature and being a child of nature is Pan. Pan loved his mountain folk and his shepherds. He was the connection to nature,and part of that was making love to the shepherds and maidens.

The spiritual connection of all living things cannot die and I cannot separate my self from it. So for part of me there is no death.

My message to you is unconditional love. The only response that is true is also unconditional love. Returning unconditional love with condemnation is spiritual poisoning, an act unworthy of the magnificent beings we are.

[Thaddus]

I believe all living things have an awareness and are connected through an awareness. We all part of the design.

Ok, but when we die (in this world), I believe we do not have a contientous awareness of the living things. A purpose of this design by our creator as discribed thru scriptures is for humans to choose eternal spiritual life thru Jesus; something we do not inheritatly have. Its a gift.

The spiritual connection of all living things cannot die and I cannot separate my self from it. So for part of me there is no death.


Satan told that to Eve too. Eve's soul is not alive; she died (Or where is she if not). I believe when we die, we are still dead even tho other living souls may be still alive. Are you saying that you have proof that part of you is still alive after you die? Where is your proof?
I am already in heaven when I am in connection with the unconditional love of my Heart of innoccence. My love of self naturally extends to love of others without effort.
If this is a true physical law of human souls, than why do we have so many wars and hatred. I am sure those who fight an make war with others also love themselves.
Thaddus

[u-dog]

If this is a true physical law of human souls, than why do we have so many wars and hatred. I am sure those who fight an make war with others also love themselves.Thaddus

Since Scott is a Pagan and I am not... I will leave him to answer for himself, but THIS statement is a little questionable. In my experience, Violent and hateful people mostly DO NOT love themselves because they mostly HAVE NOT experienced love or respect in their lives. MOST if not all hatred is born of fear which Scripture tells us creeps in where LOVE is absent.

"Perfect Love casts out all fear" 1 John

[Thaddus]

MOST if not all hatred is born of fear which Scripture tells us creeps in where LOVE is absent.
Agreed. PERFECT Love for God and hu-mankind is faith made perfect.

[kara speltz]

Since Scott is a Pagan and I am not... I will leave him to answer for himself, but THIS statement is a little questionable. In my experience, Violent and hateful people mostly DO NOT love themselves because they mostly HAVE NOT experienced love or respect in their lives. MOST if not all hatred is born of fear which Scripture tells us creeps in where LOVE is absent.

"Perfect Love casts out all fear" 1 John

Amen Dave, amen. Now if only our churches could get a grasp on that. Interestingly enough Jesus understood the destructive nature of fear. Most people think that his most often repeated commandment to us was to love, but according to a former pastor of mine, it was actually, "fear not."

[scott snedeker]

Ok, but when we die (in this world), I believe we do not have a contientous awareness of the living things. A purpose of this design by our creator as discribed thru scriptures is for humans to choose eternal spiritual life thru Jesus; something we do not inheritatly have. Its a gift.



Satan told that to Eve too. Eve's soul is not alive; she died (Or where is she if not). I believe when we die, we are still dead even tho other living souls may be still alive. Are you saying that you have proof that part of you is still alive after you die? Where is your proof?
If this is a true physical law of human souls, than why do we have so many wars and hatred. I am sure those who fight an make war with others also love themselves.
Thaddus

For most of what you say there really is no conflict between our views. Christ I believe was merely human but saw love in everyone unconditionally. His genius of connection to unconditional love is what I believe made him appear to be from heaven to millions.

You ask for proof. This is not about proof. It is about faith and love. And I believe people who make war are disconnected from unconditional love.

There is no point in referring to the bible as proof to a pagan or a buddhist any more than for me to explain global consciousness to you as proof.

It's all faith. I choose faith and love over faith and condemnation because love is a gift while condemnation poisons all.

[Emproph]

I am already in heaven when I am in connection with the unconditional love of my Heart of innoccence. My love of self naturally extends to love of others without effort.
If this is a true physical law of human souls, than why do we have so many wars and hatred. I am sure those who fight an make war with others also love themselves.
Thaddus

I'll one up him by just saying that we never left heaven. We're still here. We're not "going" anywhere.

This place was designed specifically to challenge our awareness of that. And as soon as we recognize that – as a race – just imagine...

It's not a physical "law" of human souls, it's the spiritual law of perfection (unconditional love) that we are being learned (sic) to implement.

The real question is, why would Perfection require the creation of a place where the understanding of it's sovereignty of-all would be in dispute?

Surely God knew before the Bible was written that we would be having this discussion.

[Thaddus]

It's all faith. I choose faith and love over faith and condemnation because love is a gift while condemnation poisons all.
Yes Scott, Love is a gift and so do christians who choose Jesus over condemnation (death). God loves. And it is because he loves that he gave the law. It is because he loves that he judges. It is because he loves that he judges us all guilty, since we are. It is because he loves that in judging us guilty, he has mercy on us. It is because he loves that he sent Jesus. It is because he loves that he sent the Holy Spirit. It is because he loves that moves us to turn to him (repent), to trust him (have faith), and that he saves us from sin and death (salvation).

When we love, we are behaving like God. Jesus said, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 7:12). Psychologists say that at the basest level, what all human beings need and want is to be loved. If we want to be loved, then Jesus says we need to love, and that, he says, sums up the Law and Prophets.
The law, which justly brings all human beings under condemnation and death, has been replaced by the Spirit, which brings life through Jesus Christ (compare Romans 7:6 and 8:1-4).

Through faith in Christ we are no longer under the condemnation of the law. The law has no claim on us, because we stand in Christ, not under the law. In Romans 6 and 7, Paul uses the analogy that we die with Christ and are raised with Christ, so that law, which had a claim on us until death, has now lost that claim because we have died. Our new life is in Christ, and is not under the law.

It is in this condition, the condition of belonging to Christ and released from the law, that we bear fruit to God (7:4). Our sinful nature, which would use the law to destroy us if it could, can no longer do so, because we are no longer under the law. Instead, we serve God in a new way, the way of the Spirit, not in the old way, the way of the law.

What does this mean in practical terms? At least this: There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1).

Those who are in Christ take their stand against their sinful nature on the basis of faith in Christ and life in the Spirit (which are the same thing), not on the basis of the law. On the basis of the law, we lose. On the basis of faith, however, we win. That is not because we ourselves win, but because Jesus is our victory.

We do not need to worry that God has rejected us, or that he will not listen to our prayers, or that he won’t save us, or that he won’t forgive us, or that he doesn’t love us or even that he doesn’t like us. God’s relationship with us is not based on the law; it is based on his Son. If it were based on the law, we’d be sunk. But, thank God, it is not. It is based on his Son, whom he sent to save the world because he loved it, you included (John 3:16-17).

In the Son of God, who became human for us, all the barriers to love have been broken down, whether those between Jew and Gentile, between enemies, within families, between nations, or between anybody else (Ephesians 2:14-18; Matthew 5:44; Ephesians 5:25; Isaiah 2:4; etc.). Because we trust in Christ, who loves us and makes us into a new creation in his own perfect humanity, we are free to love others in spite of all the reasons humans have to hate others.

Christ’s command that we walk in love (2 John 4-6; John 13:34) transcends the Ten Commandments. Those who walk in love fulfill the law. The one transcends the other, and they are not the same thing. As John wrote in John 1:17, "The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."
Thaddus

[ladyinred]

Daniel ,I'd like to add something here, actually Jesus said that a man who puts away his wife except for fornication is actually committing adultery if he remarries and causes her to do the same if she remarries.I'd also like to add since people so fondly like to quote about sex and morality.. according to the bible fornicators ( those who have had sexual intercourse outside of marriage and before)along with adulterers (Corinthians 6:9,10 )will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. So I like Daniel , am saying people who live in "glass houses" should not throw stones.

[Why-Lord-Why?]

Alrighty then um i'm glad this topic isn't going to be slow. I like that more than just the things I mentioned were talked about.

I am sorry if I do not get to every question pointed out I am a very busy person. I got on this topic because it is true that none of us (including myself) have searched the scriptures enough.

I would like to say again I understand these are your beliefs and that I do disagree with them, but my problem is you are giving me one hurdle I can't so far overcome. You all are asking questions like
"In the Bible it says if a women is not a virgin when married she should be stoned. So should she be stoned or is this a practice we no longer use?"

Well Jesus did say "let him without sin cast the first stone."
None of us are with out sin so it would not be right to stone someone because we are all guilty of sexual sin either physically or in our hearts.

Some of these rules of course were for certian people groups and not for everyone.
Of course I will get asked "Where in the bible does it talk against homosexuality?"

and when I answer that someone will say well that is one of those old laws.
I did vist the { www.wouldjesusdiscrminate.com } I did like the video.
U-Dog is that you?

So I guess I would like more than just my questions discussed here.
I am not anti anything I just love all of God's people and If we are right I would hate to see you all go to hell. :'(

If you really want a question answered please message me. I don't want to ignore anyone I might just not see it otherwise.
I'll check in tomorrow with some answers to your questions.

[ladyinred]

Didn't you read what I just wrote about adulterers and fornicators, what makes you think you aren't going to hell? Did it not say they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven? Check the bible yourself, read it. The point is? Frankly you sound a bit smug and self righteous.I don't think you are qualified to say who will or who won't enter into heaven and who will and and won't go to hell.Where in the bible does it say certain people having divorced(except what I mentioned above as stated by Jesus) or committing fornication or adultery are not included. I don't see anywhere in the bible where it says, yes, but this doesn't apply to everyone. Again people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and NEITHER are they the one's who determine who will enter into heaven.

We don't have any questions and we certainly don't need your attempts to proselytize here. Pleeeeeeeeease with the con job, I love everyone but would hate to see you all go to hell.What makes you an authority on matters of sexuality or even the bible?

I don't see a double standard here ,one that applies to heterosexuals and one that applies to homosexuals.

[u-dog]

and when I answer that someone will say well that is one of those old laws.
I did vist the { www.wouldjesusdiscrminate.com } I did like the video.
U-Dog is that you?




Nope. Not me.

[ladyinred]

Condescending wouldn't you all say?:rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol: :p Posted by why Lord why "So I guess I would like more than just my questions discussed here.
I am not anti anything I just love all of God's people and If we are right I would hate to see you all go to hell. " ( that did get my goat I admit it, but that went a bit further than just an honest inquiry or someone who was seeking honest answers from us,it seemed like they wanted in no uncertain terms to point out the flaws in our thinking and telling us we were wrong and that their views of the bible were correct)

[ladyinred]

Give me a break.:rolleyes:

[alisaeyes]

My second post...so be easy on me...I believe that we all interpet the bible in our own way...it has different meaning for all of us...so who right and who is wrong...only God can say...my thoughts I guess....

[ladyinred]

Keep one thought in mind. HUMILITY. None of us knows all the answers,but we cannot assume we are God and know all his puposes either. Many times I hear people say walk humbly before God. That certainly does not mean assuming we are always right and that we take a position of superiority over others.

[alisaeyes]

I agree ladyinred with you...we are all equal in Gods eyes...a lesson that some people have forgotten...

[ladyinred]

Thank you.;) :) :) I think everyone here will appreciate those comments

[scott snedeker]

Yes Scott, Love is a gift and so do christians who choose Jesus over condemnation (death). God loves. And it is because he loves that he gave the law. It is because he loves that he judges. It is because he loves that he judges us all guilty, since we are.
When we love, we are behaving like God. Jesus said......Law and Prophets.
The law, which justly brings all human beings under condemnation and death.....

It is in this condition, the condition of belonging to Christ and released from the law, that we bear fruit to God (7:4). Our sinful nature, which would use the law to destroy us if it could, can no longer do so, because we are no longer under the law. Instead, we serve God in a new way, the way of the Spirit, not in the old way, the way of the law.

What does this mean in practical terms? At least this: There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1).

Those who are in Christ take their stand against their sinful nature .......

We do not need to worry that God has rejected us, or that he will not listen to our prayers, or that he won’t save us, or that he won’t forgive us, or that he doesn’t love us or even that he doesn’t like us. God’s relationship with us is not based on the law; it is based on his Son. If it were based on the law, we’d be sunk. But, thank God, it is not. It is based on his Son, whom he sent to save the world because he loved it, you included (John 3:16-17).

In the Son of God, who became human for us, all the barriers to love have been broken down, whether those between Jew and Gentile, between enemies, within families, between nations, or between anybody else ......
Thaddus


Thaddus,

I am warmed by your belief. And I agree in a way with nearly all that you have written above, except the part in red. The only differences are that you are using Your concept of Christ as God himself and through Devotion to this concept connect with unconditional love.

I, coming from a pagan belief system don't believe the bible is written by anyone but man himself. I use symbols and examples in nature, however, to illustrate the same Ideals (except condemnation). Instead of Christ I envision Pan as My symbol of connection to unconditional love and all living things-- Particularly strong because he made love to men as well as women thus giving affirmation and encouragement for me to live true to my gay nature.

I do see Christ as the human genius who's connection to unconditional love allowed him to see love in all (including gays equally with all humans). when I said that I am in heaven when connected to unconditional love and see Christ as the best human example of this, The distinction here between our beliefs now appears negligible to me.

I am confident that the small distinction between our metaphysical models does not condem either of us anymore than I fear breaking my mother's back by stepping on the cracks on the sidewalk. (especially since I don't think God/Pan/Christ/Source condems anyone in the first place ) I don't believe the Universe works like the game of a child.

Neither of us has the intelligence to describe the unabridged complete order of the universe. So we use models. Something our limited intelligences can use. I know that my model is incomplete, but it works for me just as yours works for you.

Condemnation of any kind cannot be a part of my spirituality. Even condemnation reversed by devotion. To me it poisons my soul. The one clear distinction between our beliefs is that You believe God Condemns and I do not.

Perhaps you need to feel condemnation first to fully appreciate self love and acceptance by contrast. Hmmm that would explain a lot. I had a similar experience when getting the sigil of Pan Tattoed on my body.
The physical pain that I endured made the spiritual experience intense beyond my wildest imagination. It cemented my confirmation of becoming a pagan, strengthening my sense of connection to all living things. Hmmmmm maybe we are not so different after all! Just alternate paths to the same result.

Whaddya think?

[ladyinred]

Perhaps it is human nature to condemn , but I think in the bible it says that we have a saving grace through God.I think God knows as human beings we have our failings and frailties and personal struggles, no one is perfect.I think this is where God's mercy and forgiveness comes into play.
Titus3:4-5 But then God our savior showed us His kindness and love.He saved us not because of the good things we did but because of His mercy.
3:5-7 He washed away our sins and gave us a new life through the Holy Spirit. He generously poured out His Spirit because of what Jesus Christ our Savior did. He declared us not guilty because of His great kindness.And now we know we will inherit eternal life.

Galatians 5:1-4 So Christ has really set us free.Now make sure you stay free,and do not get tied up again in slavery to the law.Listen I Paul,tell you this:If you are counting on cirmcumcision to make you right with God,then Christ cannot help you.I'll say it again.If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised,you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses.For if you are trying to make yourself right with God by keeping the law,you have been cut off from Christ You have fallen from God's grace.( Saying by trying to adhere to the Mosaic traditions and statutes it will not make us right with God) So we are saved by God's grace. Not through our own deeds or in trying to be "good" to earn God's favor or approval.

Complementing Thaddeus and his statements :We do not need to worry that God has rejected us, or that he will not listen to our prayers, or that he won’t save us, or that he won’t forgive us, or that he doesn’t love us or even that he doesn’t like us. God’s relationship with us is not based on the law; it is based on his Son. If it were based on the law, we’d be sunk. But, thank God, it is not. It is based on his Son, whom he sent to save the world because he loved it, you included (John 3:16-17).

[ladyinred]

God's mercy prevails over judgment: 1 John 4;17-19 God is love and all who live in love live in God,and God lives in them.And as we live in God,our love grows more perfect.So we will not be afraid on the day of judgment,but we can face him with confidence because we are like Christ here in this world.Such love has no fear because perfect love expels all fear.If we are afraid it is for fear of judgment,and this shows his love has not been perfected in us.

u-dogs comments:Since Scott is a Pagan and I am not... I will leave him to answer for himself, but THIS statement is a little questionable. In my experience, Violent and hateful people mostly DO NOT love themselves because they mostly HAVE NOT experienced love or respect in their lives. MOST if not all hatred is born of fear which Scripture tells us creeps in where LOVE is absent.( *********I agree)

"Perfect Love casts out all fear" 1 John

[Pablo Rafael]

So I guess I would like more than just my questions discussed here.
I am not anti anything I just love all of God's people and If we are right I would hate to see you all go to hell.

I would hate to see us go to hell too. That is why the grace of God that flow out from the cross is so tremendous.

I know that I sin and am in need of constant forgiveness. If I were dependent on my own goodness to be saved. I would be in sad shape for I have many sins (but being gay isn't one of them.)

However, God has loved each of us, gay or straight, so much that He sent HIs Son to bring forgiveness. It was nothing that I did to bring God's grace to me. It was all God's work. Now all I can do is to live my life in joy, love and service.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Thaddus]

Condemnation of any kind cannot be a part of my spirituality. Even condemnation reversed by devotion. To me it poisons my soul. The one clear distinction between our beliefs is that You believe God Condemns and I do not.

Perhaps you need to feel condemnation first to fully appreciate self love and acceptance by contrast. Hmmm that would explain a lot. I had a similar experience when getting the sigil of Pan Tattoed on my body.

Hi Scott, sorry I have never heard of Pan, but the story does sound interesting. My boyfriend of 5 years is a lifetime astrologer As a matter of fact this saturday he says is the best day for him to have a yardsale (rain or shine) according to his chart. Yes I find these different perspectives and outlooks are good for me too.
I apoligize, my concept of condmenation seems to be different than your concept of condmenation. Condemnation to me is something you can not feel. It is the fact that we are comprised of physical decaying flesh and sujbect to death. I do not believe that we have an immortal soul. To me, this is the oldest (first) lie in the world when the adevesary told eve 'surely you wont die'. Satan is described in scriptures as the "father" of all lies. I wont get into why satan wants us to believe that we will live forever, but yes I do beleve the soul that sins- it shall die. This condemantion as the result of sin.

What I do not understand and asked for proof from you is how do you know you have an immortal soul? You stated ealier that, part of you never really dies. How do we know when we die (hopefully not tommorrow either) we will live again with spiritual body which is not made of flesh nor subject to decay and death? Eternal spiritual life is a gift from God, not something we ineheritatly have. We do not have anything like that in our bodies. Otherwise we would be able to walk thru walls. Adam and Eve were created free moral agents and did not have to die. They chose condmenation (death) because they chose to disobey their creator ( the wages of sin is death).
I take it, in your faith says there is no sin (off the bullseye) which leads to condemnation (death). Is that right? Is it the concept of sin that you believe is the condeming. Don't get me wrong, in this world those who are not chosen by God at this time, or aborted before birth, or whatever, are not condemned to an eternal death. It simply is not their time for a chance yet at salvation thu Christ. Everyone will have their chance at salvation. For Christians, it is now.
Basically, condemnation is something you can't "feel". It is the fact that we die.
Enjoy your day, Thaddus

[NathanATX]

Great conversation guys, but this is "thread drift." How about starting a new thread?
Nate

[scott snedeker]

Hi Scott, sorry I have never heard of Pan, but the story does sound interesting. My boyfriend of 5 years is a lifetime astrologer As a matter of fact this saturday he says is the best day for him to have a yardsale (rain or shine) according to his chart. Yes I find these different perspectives and outlooks are good for me too.
I apoligize, my concept of condmenation seems to be different than your concept of condmenation. Condemnation to me is something you can not feel. It is the fact that we are comprised of physical decaying flesh and sujbect to death. I do not believe that we have an immortal soul. To me, this is the oldest (first) lie in the world when the adevesary told eve 'surely you wont die'. Satan is described in scriptures as the "father" of all lies. I wont get into why satan wants us to believe that we will live forever, but yes I do beleve the soul that sins- it shall die. This condemantion as the result of sin.

What I do not understand and asked for proof from you is how do you know you have an immortal soul? You stated ealier that, part of you never really dies. How do we know when we die (hopefully not tommorrow either) we will live again with spiritual body which is not made of flesh nor subject to decay and death? Eternal spiritual life is a gift from God, not something we ineheritatly have. We do not have anything like that in our bodies. Otherwise we would be able to walk thru walls. Adam and Eve were created free moral agents and did not have to die. They chose condmenation (death) because they chose to disobey their creator ( the wages of sin is death).
I take it, in your faith says there is no sin (off the bullseye) which leads to condemnation (death). Is that right? Is it the concept of sin that you believe is the condeming. Don't get me wrong, in this world those who are not chosen by God at this time, or aborted before birth, or whatever, are condemned to an eternal death. It simply is not their time for a chance yet at salvation thu Christ. Everyone will have their chance at salvation. For Christians, it is now.
Basically, condemnation is something you can't "feel". It is the fact that we die.
Enjoy your day, Thaddus

Cool!

First I wasn't sure if you were gay:lol:

Second If it's proof that you need then here's the best substitute for proof that I can give. Fossil evidence shows that life has started from simple forms to more complex forms and more complex ecosystems over billions of years. Why? My guess is there is a form of awareness between all living things. Can I Characterize this? Of course not. Do I get Affirmation because of my genuine belief in it's existence? yes. Am I a part of it? Of course! Will it die when I die? No, Of course not.

So the part of me that is a part of this awareness has existed for billions of years will exist for billions more after I die. The part of me that will die is supposed to die by design. My existence today is the gift. If I cherish this gift and seek joy then I have lived and in doing so contribute to the evolution of the whole. To do otherwise is a waste.

Granted there is no way to prove anything. But the above is a rough sketch of my incomplete understanding of Awareness.

Peace, love, Harmony and awareness

[ladyinred]

I'd like to make a point about me pointing out earlier scripture that condemns straight people and divorce and adultery, the reason why I pointed out those scriptures, is not because I agreed with them, but because that many heterosexuals point out certain scriptures they say condemns gays and use that to justify their anti gay position and to deny GLBT's their rights and to say gay people are going to hell . I pointed out these scriptures to show the person "why oh lord "why how the bible could be used to indict them as well, and if people are going to use the bible as a billy club to justify hatred against gays, let's take a look at the many scriptures that would in fact indict them and say they may be going to hell(again I'm not saying I agree with these scriptures) If they justify using the bible as a weapon to say gay people are going to hell , I wanted to point out that scriptures could in effect be used against them too .But I also agree with Mel White about the bible, I don't think we should use it to justify hatred of anyone. But what I find is hypocrisy on heterosexuals part is they point out the verses in the bible they use against homosexuals while conveniently overlooking the scriptures that point to them,even trying to skate around them or make excuses on their own behalf ."Well ,those don't apply to us, or those are outdated, we don't believe those anymore," and they don't think the same applies to GLBT people?

[ladyinred]

Below comments from WhyOh Lord Why

"I would like to say again I understand these are your beliefs and that I do disagree with them, but my problem is you are giving me one hurdle I can't so far overcome. You all are asking questions like
"In the Bible it says if a women is not a virgin when married she should be stoned. So should she be stoned or is this a practice we no longer use?"

Well Jesus did say "let him without sin cast the first stone."
Why oh Lord Why posted "None of us are with out sin so it would not be right to stone someone because we are all guilty of sexual sin either physically or in our hearts.

Some of these rules of course were for certian people groups and not for everyone.
Of course I will get asked "Where in the bible does it talk against homosexuality?"

and when I answer that someone will say well that is one of those old laws.
I did vist the { www.wouldjesusdiscrminate.com } I did like the video.
U-Dog is that you?

So I guess I would like more than just my questions discussed here.
I am not anti anything I just love all of God's people and If we are right I would hate to see you all go to hell. ******"



I'm just going to post a few comments here. I found these remarks offensive,in my mind it set off several reactions, A) this person wasn't really interested in other's view points on this particular discussion,and was essentially saying we are right and you are wrong B) was using the bible again to bash gays:
Below remarks:
Of course I will get asked "Where in the bible does it talk against homosexuality?"
"and when I answer that someone will say well that is one of those old laws.
I did vist the { www.wouldjesusdiscrminate.com } I did like the video.
U-Dog is that you?"


I also sensed this person was trying to show us how wrong we were and that we needed to repent because of our "wrong behavior"(Again the above remarks,"If we are right ,I would hate to see you all go to hell") and was trying to proselytize.

I sensed insincerity on the person's part in really trying to understand or see other people's perspective, he had already made up his mind he was right about the bible and knew more than we did. My feeling is he had ulterior motives.( trying to convert us or change us) He was using subtle means to infiltrate this forum to convince of us the error of our thinking and our ways. He claimed he was not attacking us but again in a disguised effort I feel he was.Which is why I personally confronted him.

What are your opinions on this and how did you react when you read this person's comments? How did you feel about what they said and the way they said it?

Also how do you feel about the above comments I've made , perhaps you see things differently and have other ideas about what he said, or may have another view point about this person.

[Why-Lord-Why?]

I also sensed this person was trying to show us how wrong we were and that we needed to repent because of our "wrong behavior"(Again the above remarks,"If we are right ,I would hate to see you all go to hell") and was trying to proselytize.

I sensed insincerity on the person's part in really trying to understand or see other people's perspective, he had already made up his mind he was right about the bible and knew more than we did. My feeling is he had ulterior motives.( trying to convert us or change us) He was using subtle means to infiltrate this forum to convince of us the error of our thinking and our ways. He claimed he was not attacking us but again in a disguised effort I feel he was.



Dear Ladyinred

again I AM NOT ANTI-GAY!

I am not trying to tell you your wrong. I don't understand what's wrong with saying that I don't want you to go to hell. I would hope that you would not want someone to go to hell.


I sensed insincerity on the person's part in really trying to understand or see other people's perspective, he had already made up his mind he was right about the bible and knew more than we did.


I am very sorry you feel that way because that's not how I feel. I haven't made up my mind. I wonder the same things I have questioned you on. I started this thread to have a debate not an argument. :)

I would like to get the point out that I am not one of the protesters having mean and hateful things to say. As you said that I have no right to cast a stone and I agree. I already said that. I am asking the people how do we know which rules are old rules (that we no longer have to follow) or which are current rules which we have to follow.

I understand that I am the person you can target for every mean and hateful comment that was towards your for what ever way you choose to live your life. But this is my plee :pray: , please don't take all you hurt and anger out on a person who has a very open mind and does not want to offend anyone here.

For everyone here all I wanted was a calm debate with christians over issues in the bible.

If none of you want that I can leave. But remember I have not meant to be judgemental or self-righteous. Since I have started this thread I have been the one attacked.

I would like to thank Rick336 for keeping an open mind after his first comment and being willing to dicuss the bible and not attack me.

[kara speltz]

For everyone here all I wanted was a calm debate with christians over issues in the bible.

If none of you want that I can leave. But remember I have not meant to be judgemental or self-righteous. Since I have started this thread I have been the one attacked.

I would like to thank Rick336 for keeping an open mind after his first comment and being willing to dicuss the bible and not attack me.

Dear Friend: It is often hard for us as LGBTs who have been literally clobbered by people who share your beliefs to respond calmly. We've heard these arguments over and over and over ad nauseum. And so it pushes a lot of buttons for us. When I'm feeling particularly sarcastic my remark to people who push the 6 clobber passages is, "I've been a lesbian for over 30 years, do you really think I haven't heard all of this before?"

So, I hope you'll stay. I hope you'll spend some serious time with "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say," reading it with an open heart. And I hope that you'll raise your questions sensitive to the historic pain Christians have created for us, fellow LGBT Christians.

kara

[ladyinred]

WhyOhWhy First I don't feel my comments are an attack on you , I based my comments on what I've read about your comments. I don't thing you have been unfairly singled out and attacked by anyone on this forum, I feel they have been more than courteous.

And I don't see that anyone has directed hateful comments toward you. But I do disagree with you on you points. Does that mean I am trying to attack you? I also ask you to keep an open mind. You might want to reread other peoples comments and really take a hard honest look at what they are saying , where they are trying to come from, get into their shoes so to speak and try to see the world through their perspective.

Understand there is more than one point of view and different sides see things differently. However the point is we are often accused of trying to convert heterosexuals to our lifestyle and way of thinking and I will say this is not usually true of homsexuals.

However it is not unfair to say that heterosexuals are trying to get us to change and convert to their lifestyle and norms. You do not see heterosexual reparative therapies trying to change heterosexuals into gays do you?
And it is another misconception that we are trying to undermine heterosexuals and their families and destroy their way of life, nothing could be further from the truth. We just ask that people consider our relationships and families as well.Are we telling heterosexuals ,do not marry and have children ? Of course not. We are not trying to undermine their freedom and personal choices, could that be said of heterosexuals ?

While many may be open minded and agree that GLBT people should not be discriminated against. The fact is that there is a campaign in this country to undermine anti-discrimination laws that would protect GLBT people. Meaning that gays can be discriminated for any reason from being denied jobs, housing, having their children taken away, and from being protected from being victims of crimes or violence. Are gays trying to promote bias like that toward straight people and enact legislation that would discriminate against straight people, of course not.

And let's say the person who was being discriminated against was you ,how would you feel if you were treated like a second class citizen with no rights? How would you feel if people harrassed you and threatened you and made hateful remarks about your sexuality. How would you feel if violence was directed toward you. What if people were constantly putting you down and making fun of you and calling you names ?What if people were actually approving of this kind of behavior against you and actually condoning it?Perhaps you can now see where GLBT people are coming from.

Even if you don't agree with another person's lifestyle would you say that the above behavior is justified in being used against them?Wouldn't you say that is hateful and unwarranted? And what about the golden rule, don't you think that applies to GLBT people too? Consider this. How you want to be treated is how GLBT people want to be treated.

[Bearnabas]

Why Lord Why,

Please stay. If we could get any one person to sit and listen, to open themselves up to the possibilities of another point of view, to honestly ask a question about doctrine they've heard drilled into their heads since birth, then we would be making an ally --and we wouldn't have to convince you of a thing. It is in listening and opening the debate that one's mind automatically changes--not dramatically at first--but it opens the door.

I for one would like to congratulate you and thank you for opening the debate.

I wish there were many, many others of you who would like to hear our "sides" and there seem to be many. Some of us are pretty PO'd because anyone assumes we are wrong, and some of us are pretty pleased to have the questions asked. I don't think either of these reactions is unexpected. And both valid. LadyinRed, whom I think I could marry at some point if she likes my coffee--and I wasn't gay--is valid in her feeling a bit attacked in her "home"--soulforce is a like a very well decorated, comfy living room with jazz playing in the background--and to be told that she even might go to hell, well, you might as well get your coat and leave. I totally understand that feeling. If someone told you that, Why Lord Why, that they were sorry you might have to go to hell---:D you might have the same reaction.

However, other posters are right. The bible has very LITTLE to say about homosexuality and most of it is positive. YIKES! Pablo had some of the best posts on this (on realizing the inclusiveness of the Bible to address everyone, condemn everyone, and forgive everyone) That's grace. Positive parts of scripture and homosexuality are found in a great book that I can't recommend enough, "What the bible really has to say about homosexuality" by Daniel Helminiak. He makes a good case for the Centurian and his slave, Jesus addressing Eunuchs, even David and Jonathan (which if it didn't have a sexual component, had a great deal of love "beyond that of women.")

I just want to say that there is no other way that Why Lord Why could come to us, no other vocabulary, no other thoughts he/she could have coming from a culture that has routinely condemned us.

WLW (Why Lord Why), you and I are very similar ('cept I'm gay) in that for 34 years, I toed that line in the sand too. And I used to ask gays how they could knowingly disobey God, the Bible, etc. If they didn't believe in the Bible, well, then I knew where they were headed (or I knew that I had a lot of work to get them evangelized.). If they were struggling, I helped them see with our "clobber" passages that a misstep might cost them the kingdom. I was a very good Saul. And then one day I saw the light--and fell in love myself for the first time--and realized that I was gay. My point, and I do have one, is that I was INCAPABLE of coming at homosexuality with anything other than the vocabulary and learning that I had acquired from my religious Baptist upbringing. It's like expecting me to speak Spanish first day. There's lots of "hola"s before you get to anything resembling sentences.

So, thank God you are giving us your Hola--and it contains, yeah, some parts that some of us consider offensive (most of us would probably say that believing that christians are going to hell kind of undermines the bible's message of grace). Now, if you are ready, keep asking us questions--specific ones, about specific things in the bible--or read the threads that might concern Sodom, Romans, etc. Keep the open mind you brought to us, maybe wedge a block of wood in there to not let it shut too fast. I know it's hard when you receive a great deal of negative response to keep it open. And while WE don't consider it negative--it may come across that way because we are naturally a bit defensive.

Just remember: you can't come to us expecting to take away everything you brought with you. You have to decide what of yours you will leave behind (what parts of doctrine may not be correct) and what of ours you may take with you. If you expect to just hand us the doctrine--even if it is to "save" us--it won't work. Many of us are already saved, and we're gay. So, work with us, keep standing strong, and we will give you a piece of our minds and beliefs in the best way we know how--with the grace and love that was shown to us through Christ.

[ladyinred]

Again Why O Why I'm not asking you to leave either. And yes certain things do push buttons for me I admit. However I'm not trying to make you into the enemy and bad guy. I think hopefully you will try to discuss things and ask questions but please try to consider the view points of others as well. I hope we can maintain a discussion without either side feeling defensive or attacked either. I guess I was trying to confront you because certain comments you made I felt were a bit offensive.You may not change your mind about the lifestyles of gay people,you may continue to disagree but hopefully you will understand the need to understand others feelings and rights and will see where other people are coming from and why they have the views they do and the need for tolerance rather than hatred and misunderstanding.:) :) :)Again not to put you on the defensive,keep an open mind.I'm not trying to force you into another view point but just ask you to take a second look. Understandably you will draw your own conclusions and no one can force you to think a certain way, but again in keeping an open mind you might learn that there is alot more to the "story" as well. I just hope instead of using the bible and what we call the "clobber passages," we all can come to an understanding that it really shouldn't be used against anyone gay or straight to demonize them.

[andrewlittle]

Dear Friend: It is often hard for us as LGBTs who have been literally clobbered by people who share your beliefs to respond calmly. We've heard these arguments over and over and over ad nauseum. And so it pushes a lot of buttons for us. When I'm feeling particularly sarcastic my remark to people who push the 6 clobber passages is, "I've been a lesbian for over 30 years, do you really think I haven't heard all of this before?" kara

Exactly, so let me have a go at it.

Hey Why, I'm Andy. I'm not GLBT myself. I am an ally, and a Christian minister, and a Biblical languages scholar, and someone who would dearly love to see dialogue about the very things that separate God's children one from another.

That said, most of the comments I have seen are not yours. I'm not entirely sure what you would like to discuss. So I will just start and see if you take it up from there, or if you want to go a different direction.

The Bible, in the English translations since the KJV, which was based before that on the Latin Vulgate, can be read as condemning same-sex relations. I will avoid using "homosexuality" as that word, for GLBT folks, is a little loaded with baggage. (Besides it didn't exist until the 19th century). When read in Hebrew and Greek, the passages in question, all six of them, fall well short of being condemnatory about these relationships.

The creation story discusses relationship between man and woman becuase they were the ones who were there. It is a far cry to claim that this is the archetypal relationship that God "ordained" - which is a common claim.

The Leviticus passages, when literally translated, forbid "a man lying with a male on a woman's/wife's bed." While this would represent the only two times in the Pentateuch that same-sex was addressed, if that's what it said, it actually represents yet a different prohibition against adultery - the act of engaging in sex with someone when you are already in relationship with a woman/wife.

Paul's writings are far from clear, since in one case he used words used nowhere else in scripture, and they have far from clear meanings.

So, in the absence of definitive, absolute translations of God's word, how does one human determine that another is at risk of going to hell in the first place?

[kara speltz]

So, in the absence of definitive, absolute translations of God's word, how does one human determine that another is at risk of going to hell in the first place?

Good to have you back Andrew, I've missed seeing your postings of late. You know, when people write Mel and tell him that he and I and all of us LGBTs are going to hell, I take a slightly different stance, because Jesus was so clear, I believe, in telling us that judgment is not one of our responsibilities, it is to be left to God.

When I run into these words, "you're going to hell," I suggest that given the fact that we all fall short of the mark. And given the fact that Jesus is clear in Matthew that we will be judged, by whether we fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited the sick and imprisoned, I can't comprehend how someone has the time to worry about someone other than their own selves falling short of the mark.

I also, ask them what is it that makes this person so obsessed about us LGBTs. It does begin some interesting conversations.

Actually it's not just a stance, I take to promote conversation. I really do believe that the area I fail in, most often, is being there for those who have been marginalized by our society. I far too often pass by someone in need of help, because, I'm not feeling all that good about myself that day. And even when I consciously set aside a certain amount of money each week to give to the poor, I way too often pass them by.

So WLW, perhaps I missed it in your posting, but I'm curious why this is of such importnce to you?

kara

[ladyinred]

In fact, Why O Why I tend to take a more moderate view than the bible on subjects like divorce, adultery and premarital sex. Because I think it has somewhat of a harsh view on these subjects.

Many people have had sex before marriage and I feel that the bible's view is imposing a life sentence on them for earlier mistakes they may have made. Also on divorce, I have also found there are good reasons why people have divorced, some have had to get out of bad relationships they could not make work or even abusive relationships that where hazardous to their wellbeing, to name some, I think the bible is much too harsh on saying all divorces are bad or to be condemned. Perhaps there can be wrong reasons why people get a divorce.

What about people who have had partners walk out and leave them ? Should they be condemned to a lifetime of loneliness and not be permitted to remarry?

Also I feel in the case of adultery, That this is a problem that needs to be worked out by the individuals in the marriage, possibly through marriage counseling or personal counseling but then again if the marriage is on the rocks and the two people can not agree to stay in it , it is probably better for them to divorce than to stay in an unhealthy relationship and be miserable for the rest of their lives.

However the bible's views I feel are condemning of people rather than offering solutions to the problems, struggles and the temptations people often face.Perhap at the time these were seen as resolving certain issues around marriage but I feel we live in a much more complicated world and relationships are often complex themselves and we also know alot more about things.

Perhaps scriptures in a sense pertained more to the culture, traditions and times rather than our times.But to ostracize people and saying that they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven again to me imposes a lifetime sentence on people for mistakes they have made and again I think this is where God's grace and mercy and forgiveness come in.

There is not one person who can say they are perfect or have never made mistakes, to me the idea that people are going to hell for making those mistakes again seems like it is not only imposing a lifetime sentence in this life but also in the afterlife..To me this would nullify God's grace, mercy and forgiveness then.I would rather tend to err on the side of judge not and think that people can grow and learn from their mistakes rather than ok, you blew it now guess where you are going? I personally don't believe God operates like that.

Perhaps you would like to share some of your personal views on what I just wrote or add your own.
And what about others who may want to discuss this post?

[ladyinred]

Kara I agree with your point about clobber passages and agree with you it is really not anyone's right to assume that we can judge others, leave that to God.I think he knows more about a person's heart than anyone else would.I'd also like to point out in the scriptures , there are many that admonish people not to judge and condemn, I have found many of them.

There are even those that point to mercy, as in "judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy, mercy triumphs over judgment" , even Jesus said be merciful as your father is merciful.. Why are these conveniently overlooked by people who would use other passages to condemn GLBT people and telling them they are going to hell? Again scripture could be pointed out against them to do the same.

How can they assume the role of playing God and determining who is going to heaven and who is not? Actually how can any of us assume the role of God and know what he is thinking? You may want to add your thoughts to this.

[ladyinred]

Kara ,I look at soul force and the GLBT community as my family and yes I even feel protective of them. I just do not understand why people in our country feel it is justified to abuse people just because they don't like something or agree with it. Where in the bible does Jesus advocate mistreating people, where does he advocate violence and hatred toward people. I draw the line. If I feel like someone crosses it , they will know about it. They don't have to see eye to eye with me or even agree with me, but I will not give that person the right to abuse me or mistreat me.

I'm not talking about Why Oh why, I'm talking about the violence and hate directed at GLBT people everyday being condoned by irresponsible religious leaders who are short sighted and don't even know what they are talking about. That's why I tried to point out to why Oh why , what if the shoe was on the other foot. Common human decency would say that those who condone and advocate such atrocious behavior are not in line with biblical scripture , and have intrepreted to their own ends to justify such behavior.

They say the Holy Spirit speaks through them , I seriously doubt it, I think if he did he would bring to conscience the immorality of their own behavior,and that trying to harm others is not in line with the teachings of Christ.We have also have to remember Christ died on the cross at the hands of such people.Not only was he brutally beaten and tortured people ridiculed and scorned him while he was dying on the cross. I remember reading something that was commenting on the crucifixion and how Christ was treated that said the depravity and brutality of the people was astounding and heartbreaking. Even though Christ forgave them, I do not believe he was condoning or agreeing with their behavior. He just wasn't filled with spite or the need for revenge. Why else would he have taught the Golden rule?

[ladyinred]

I just thought I would post this, I hope you all will read it.http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/goldrule.htm

[revtj]

This Bible question is a recurring one among christians throughout all times and in all places. Each generation has the obligation to ask how the scriptures speak to the unique social & spiritual conditions of their day & age.

I'm going to try not to write a 3 volume set here.

One of many things that helped me to see past the notion that the canon was fixed and finished in 325 CE was in reading the discourse of christians prior to Nicea. Guess what? They didn't agree on issues that seem silly to us now but seemed crucial to them then. Circumcision, castration, Judaism, the "Old Testament," eating meat sacrificed to idols, baptism (including vicarious baptism to save ancestors & family members who never heard the gospel), and then the big fights over the nature of Jesus and his relationship to God.

They fought fiercely over these things, condemned each other, denied civil rights (to the extent that they understood them), murdered bishops, exiled bishops, burned down their homes and drove them out of town. The true story of the Council of Nicea is more like the Godfather than the Sound of Music as it often gets told in churches. It was a political coup with a religious subtext in which the emperor sought to unify the empire for military conquest. There were actually a total of 29 councils trying to decide these issues but the emperor settled things politically and militarily in the 325 Nicean Council.

From this history, I draw some conclusions that are significant to how I articulate the gospel in 2007.

1. Christians, like all humanity, are continuously and rebelliously in flight from Jesus' proclamation of the Great Law of Love. We'd much rather fight over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (an actual church argument from medieval times) than love our neighbor as ourselves.

2. Building loving community that engenders hope and compassion was the original mission of christians that made the religion prosper when it was just a cult of Jews whose teacher had been executed. That was the power that changed history-- not councils, doctrinal statements, etc.

3. It is possible to disagree in love and still feed the poor, clothe the naked, visit the sick & imprisoned, & do "unto the least of these" as a way of life. Sexual orientation becomes somehow irrelevant when you fill your time & heart with the gospel's mission of love.

4. The dialogue over homosexuality will ultimately be understood by whether or not christians are willing to love their neighbor as themselves.

sermon over...

[u-dog]

and a damn good one it was too !! Of course, sexual orientation will only be irrelevant to those of us who cannot openly serve when we CAN openly serve.

[Why-Lord-Why?]

I'm sorry if I miss something in your posting everyone but I only can devote 20 or so minutes to this website and I try to read as fast as I can.

Dear Kara Speltz,

You asked me "Why is this important to me?"

The answer,

Just as I care for the people and families involed in the Virginia Tech Shooting, I care for all of you. Just as I wonder if every person who died were saved and knew that Jesus died for them on the cross. I care for all people including gays. I have a very open mind towards this subject. I to wish people would stop judge you all so quickly.

Dear ladyinred,

You have made some very good points. I wish I could let you all understand how I am here to talk with you not judge you. I also wish we could stop talking about us and get down to the answers of how can we tell what the bible is clear on.

But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice I have many good gay friends but when they tell me they were born gay I just can't believe it.
Now is were you get to understand me, you all have thought of me as a straight man who thinks of himself as the perfect christian.

Surpise i'm not, I to have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definetion). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of. But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself. I am now hetrosexual. I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.

The reason i'm here is because I am asking the question do you need to change. Is being gay ok? What does the bible say? How can we tell the old rules from the current?

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.

from a hopeful friend,

Zack

[keltic63]

I'm sorry if I miss something in your posting everyone but I only can devote 20 or so minutes to this website and I try to read as fast as I can.

Dear Kara Speltz,

You asked me "Why is this important to me?"

The answer,

Just as I care for the people and families involed in the Virginia Tech Shooting, I care for all of you. Just as I wonder if every person who died were saved and knew that Jesus died for them on the cross. I care for all people including gays. I have a very open mind towards this subject. I to wish people would stop judge you all so quickly.

Dear ladyinred,

You have made some very good points. I wish I could let you all understand how I am here to talk with you not judge you. I also wish we could stop talking about us and get down to the answers of how can we tell what the bible is clear on.

But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice I have many good gay friends but when they tell me they were born gay I just can't believe it.
Now is were you get to understand me, you all have thought of me as a straight man who thinks of himself as the perfect christian.

Surpise i'm not, I to have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definetion). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of. But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself. I am now hetrosexual. I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.

The reason i'm here is because I am asking the question do you need to change. Is being gay ok? What does the bible say? How can we tell the old rules from the current?

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.

from a hopeful friend,

Zack


Zack, make sure you've read our guidelines concerning promotion of reparative therapies. Some of this is very close to breaking them.

then, for your own good, check out their success rates, as well as what the professional organizations say about such therapies.

[revtj]

But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice

What difference does it make to you if it is not genetic?

If it is simply a matter of choice then why don't we all just choose to be straight? That's simple enough.

And why is it that those who go to religious 'change-you-to-straight' treatments don't simply become straight? Most (more than 80%) of them remain gay, either abstaining from same sex behaviors, and/or forcing themselves into opposite sex relationships to please God. And then there's the healthy segment of them who reject therapy to change and accept themselves and seek a normal, stable, gay relationship.

I remember asking God, if it's wrong for me to be gay, then why doesn't He just change me? I was willing, able, constantly in prayer for it & it never happened. Consequently I am very unimpressed with the magical powers of Jesus Christ. Instead, I prefer to follow his teaching and try to be a servant among his flocks.

[Daniel]

But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice I have many good gay friends but when they tell me they were born gay I just can't believe it.

Now is were you get to understand me, you all have thought of me as a straight man who thinks of himself as the perfect christian.

Surpise i'm not, I to have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definetion). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of. But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself. I am now hetrosexual. I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.

The reason i'm here is because I am asking the question do you need to change. Is being gay ok? What does the bible say? How can we tell the old rules from the current?

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.


Zack- What you are saying doesn't make much sense to me for the following reasons.

You cannot believe those who self-report that they are gay. Therefore, you invalidate the very people you are attempting to have a conversation with her. With this attitude, you are going to be disappointed. The evidence for being born gay isn't insubstantial; what matters is how those who self-report that they are gay are oppressed by religious conservatives. That is why Soulforce exists.

You are single and have experienced 'desire" (would that be same-sex attraction?), but now assert that your are heterosexual. What does that mean? That you do not have any 'desire'?

You say those who self-report that they are gay are giving themselves an excuse. That's quite a swipe from my perspective. Those who are gay and are able to throw off the oppression dealt out to them by religious conservatives are giving themselves freedom to love and be loved. But since you do not give those who say they are gay even and inch to walk on, I doubt that you would be able to see this fact.

You ask "do you need to change". Well. No. I don't need to change. If you think I need to change that is your problem. Not mine. I'm perfectly clear that I am blessed as I am. And my husband of 14 years will concur with that.

My desire for love is not a problem. Neither is my desire to love. It's what we made for.

Likewise, I and others are not here to negotiate away the basis for our being Children of God. As Mel White has said, it's not up for debate.

I suggest you read the information (PDF's) on this website, especially the one on What the Bible Says About Homosexuality. If you are really interesting in this topic, you will devote more that 20 minutes to it.

[u-dog]

Surpise: i'm not, I too have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definition). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of. But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself. I am now hetrosexual. I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.

Zach,

If the above statement is true for you ... and it pleases you, then I am pleased for you. Like RevTJ I prayed for many years to be "forgiven" for being gay and prayed constantly to be changed. I exercised every kind of self restraint I could think of. I married a woman and had kids with her and 20+ years later I'm still married to her and I still love her very much as she loves me... and GUESS WHAT? I'm still gay. I have never made love to another man! and GUESS WHAT? I'm still gay. I have made love to my wife many times over the years. AND GUESS WHAT? That doesn't make me hetero-sexual.

I don't know how long you have been "cured" or how old you are, Zack, but if you find yourself down the road still attracted to other men, don't beat yourself up or imagine that you have "Failed". Just pick yourself up and start to love yourself the way that Jesus already loves you. :pray: :love:

Dave

[kara speltz]

Dear Kara Speltz,

You asked me "Why is this important to me?"

The answer,

Just as I care for the people and families involed in the Virginia Tech Shooting, I care for all of you. Just as I wonder if every person who died were saved and knew that Jesus died for them on the cross. I care for all people including gays. I have a very open mind towards this subject. I to wish people would stop judge you all so quickly.

Dear ladyinred,

You have made some very good points. I wish I could let you all understand how I am here to talk with you not judge you. I also wish we could stop talking about us and get down to the answers of how can we tell what the bible is clear on.

But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice I have many good gay friends but when they tell me they were born gay I just can't believe it. Now is were you get to understand me, you all have thought of me as a straight man who thinks of himself as the perfect christian.

Surpise i'm not, I to have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definetion). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of. But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself. I am now hetrosexual. I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.The reason i'm here is because I am asking the question do you need to change. Is being gay ok? What does the bible say? How can we tell the old rules from the current?

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.
from a hopeful friend,

Zack

So, now the truth comes out. You're not here to dialogue, your simply here to prove your point.

And let me just say that I think your caring about us is a bunch of crap. You think your life is so free from sin that your job is to save those who you perceive as sinful? Who do you think you are? Sorry but I'm a follower of Jesus the carpenter and I don't need you to save me.

My failings as I said, are exactly what Jesus said we would be judged for. My failings have absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A LESBIAN.

My failings are about not loving my brothers and sisters enough. Read the Sermon on the Mount Zach. Jesus doesn't care WHO we love, onlly HOW we love.

And this will be my last post to you. Because you're so dishonest coming in here claiming to want to dialogue but finally acknowledging there is no room for you to change your mind.

kara

[NathanATX]

This thread is being locked for moderator review.
Nate

[NathanATX]

Reminder:

All posts must comply with the Soulforce Forum Guidelines.

Specifically:

Anti-Gay comments
We welcome people who are on the journey to understanding and accepting gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. However obvious anti-gay comments will not be allowed in the public forums. Such comments are not merely opinions, but rather a way to demean and oppress GLBT people. Any posts deemed by the Soulforce staff to be anti-gay will be removed. First time offenders will always receive a warning via private message. Repeat offenders will lose both their right to post messages on any of the Soulforce Public Forums and also their right to send private messages to other members.

Materials promoting "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy"
Some homosexual persons claim to have experienced a change in their sexual orientation. Their stories are their stories and we should not try to change them if they are sincerely happy. With that said, however, the vast majority of these brothers and sisters entered "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" under the belief of a homosexual orientation being morally inferior and a heterosexual orientation being morally superior. Such a belief is a falsehood that is used by many to deny GLBT people equality in society and full membership in our churches. Thus the promotion of "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" is not permitted on the forums and will be handled as anti-gay comments.

Posts that are excessively hostile to Soulforce
We certainly make room for forum members to disagree with Soulforce and post constructive criticism. However we don’t permit excessive hostility towards the organization on our own website. Such posts will be removed and offenders will lose their privilege to post messages.

[ladyinred]

I agree Nathan that those who are in the exgay ministries should speak for themselves.If they are happy being that way and that is what works for them so be it. But by the same token I don't think that they have the right to impose their religious views on the rest of us.:) Another man's "blessing" , may be another man's curse, so to speak.

[NathanATX]

I'm sorry if I miss something in your posting everyone but I only can devote 20 or so minutes to this website and I try to read as fast as I can.

Dear Kara Speltz,

You asked me "Why is this important to me?"

The answer,

Just as I care for the people and families involed in the Virginia Tech Shooting, I care for all of you. Just as I wonder if every person who died were saved and knew that Jesus died for them on the cross. I care for all people including gays. I have a very open mind towards this subject. I to wish people would stop judge you all so quickly.

Dear ladyinred,

You have made some very good points. I wish I could let you all understand how I am here to talk with you not judge you. I also wish we could stop talking about us and get down to the answers of how can we tell what the bible is clear on.

But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice I have many good gay friends but when they tell me they were born gay I just can't believe it.
Now is were you get to understand me, you all have thought of me as a straight man who thinks of himself as the perfect christian.


Highlighted sentence is clearly anti-gay. You can ask questions and discuss this issue, but to make absolute statements that are contrary to the forum guidelines will result in you having your posting privileges removed.

And, Zack, I doubt many of us instantly imagined you to be the epitome of masculine heterosexuality. Why not, you ask? Well, my friend, we have discovered time and time again that the old adage is true. "Thou doth protest too much." The majority of the virulently anti-gay, the ones who are unwilling to consider any other possibilities, the ones who are the quickest to condemn and judge are usually struggling with their own sexuality.

Throw some spiritual discernment in the equation and, Zack, you didn't have a chance at pulling the "100% hetero" blanket over our eyes.

Surpise i'm not, I to have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definetion). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of. But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself. I am now hetrosexual. I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.

Highlighted text is a clear promotion of "ex-gay" ideology and absolutely not permitted on these boards.

I think it's kind of funny, in spite of how heartbreaking you know your story is, that you would offer an example you having sex (presumably with a woman) as proof of your heterosexuality. Surely you know that thousands upon thousands of glbt people tried hetero sex in their desparate attempts at fitting in, appeasing God, family & church.

Sex isn't the issue, Zack. Love is. The sooner you get that through your head, the better you'll be.

The reason i'm here is because I am asking the question do you need to change. Is being gay ok? What does the bible say? How can we tell the old rules from the current?

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.

from a hopeful friend,

Zack

Zack, I believe the real reason you are here is because God intended for you to encounter spirit-led people who have not only embraced their faith but their God-created sexuality. I believe that today seeds of hope are being planted in you... that maybe God's grace is big enough for you.

One thing you will not get away with here is a lack of integrity. You say you want to dialogue and ask questions, but everything you said before that was a desperate attempt to block dialogue with your pontificating declarations of internalized homophobia.

Either you are truly open to conversation or you aren't. Don't be a jerk.

And if you do continue in this place, know that we are watching your every move. Any more anti-gay comments and promotion of "ex-gay" ideology and we'll start limiting your access.

Discuss. Ask Questions. Don't make absolute statements.

Peace,
Nate, Moderator

[NathanATX]

1219608346345310021

[andrewlittle]

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.

from a hopeful friend,

Zack

There have been numerous questions and attempts at discussing the Bible. You just seem to sidestep those.

[Zerbie]

I'm sorry if I miss something in your posting everyone but I only can devote 20 or so minutes to this website and I try to read as fast as I can.

You'll get out of this conversation what you put into it. Just fyi.


But I will say one thing I will not change my mind on and that is the reasoning that you were born gay. Hetro and Homesexuality are a choice I have many good gay friends but when they tell me they were born gay I just can't believe it.

Zack, your inability to believe or relate to your friends' experience is your own inability (or unwillingness) to believe them, not proof that gay is a choice.


Surpise i'm not, I to have struggled with Homosexuality. I'm not married but I have had pre-marital sex (depending on your definetion). I care for you because i've been there I have had desire that my other church friends would be ashamed of.

Sounds like you were pretty ashamed of your own feelings. Sorry you went through that.

But after several year I have finnaly won the battle inside of myself.

Are you exerting a force of will, forcing yourself to be attracted to people you are not? Forcing yourself not to acknowledge when you feel attracted to someone of your own sex? Most gay people have done that, some for decades.

I am now hetrosexual.

May I ask how you know that? And how you define heterosexual?

I will never accept the excuse that you are unable to change.

Careful Zack. That is a loaded accusation and a lie all at one time. It's also a verbal assault to say that to a gay person. Someone's reality is NOT an "excuse." It's a fact. Change? Why should someone who is loved, loving, caring, productive, successful and has friends ever change? Because *you* believe they should is not a reason. Nothing is wrong. Nothing needs to change.

Sexuality is fluid Zack, for many people. There are bisexual people in this world (people who are attracted to both sexes, and sometimes they are more attracted to one sex than the other, though they can have desire for members of either one.) Perhaps you fall under that category yourself and that is why you perceive that your desires for men have dwindled and that you can also desire women. If so, that makes you bisexual, which is a different thing from being gay. Gay persons do not have the desire for the opposite sex. No sparks. None.

The fact that you experienced a change of some sort in your feelings (or your perception of those feelings) is a personal fact. It's just yours. It is in NO WAY a prescription for anyone else to try and recreate it in order to change. They are born to be whoever they are, and their best destiny may manifest very differently from yours. Some flowers are red. Some are yellow. :flower2: :flower:

I'd like now to echo U-dog:

If at some future time you experience or discover desires for other men once again, please understand that it is not a condemnation and that nothing is wrong with you for having them. If in fact you *are* gay, and you have entered a place of denial, this question may likely return to bite you hard, and scare you. Even if it's 20 years from now.

If such a time comes, remember that there are hundreds of thousands of gay people who love God, who know down to their bones and through the very depths of their spirits that God loves them precisely as they are (gay included), who love, who are loved, and who live happy lives with successful careers and fond friends. If that time comes, please do not despair, but reach out to those who have been there. Many, many gay people have spent years shutting themselves down inside so as not to notice their homosexuality. Have spent years believing that gays were "the other" and that they were heterosexuals who were simply plagued with a scary struggle against the spectre of homosexuality. But homosexuality, like heterosexuality, often results in crushes, dates, hand-holding, hugs, first kisses, long-term relationships, and the establishing of a loving household with someone wonderful to come home to at night. If your "struggle" resumes at some future time, please remember that. Come to us, you will find our arms open.


The reason i'm here is because I am asking the question do you need to change. Is being gay ok? What does the bible say? How can we tell the old rules from the current?

So let's stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the bible. Anyone who wants to tackle things questions please start. I am going to take a day off so if you don't hear from me I haven't run away.

from a hopeful friend,

Zack

Zack, you can't avoid talking about yourself (unless you sweep the acknowledgement under the rug, and then you have a lumpy rug.) Life is real. Accept your own experiences and feelings. Yes, you're okay. No, you don't need to change (whatever your sexuality is.) God's love is without condition. Only humanity imposes conditions.

[ladyinred]

I've never been through a conversion therapy but from what I've read about them, there are thousands of people who have tried to change their feelings and same sex attractions but to no avail , and this has led them to personal feelings of failure and despondency and in many cases suicidal feelings. To me at best conversion therapy is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

The only "success" from these therapies it seems is to cage people in and to put restrictions on them to avoid acting on their same sex attraction, it does not in essence seem to actually change people into genuine heterosexuals who just have a opposite sex attraction who have absolutely no yearnings or inclinations toward the same sex. To me since Ex gay claim to "cure" people of homosexuality, how can it be that they are cured when they still have the the same inclinations and tendacies and have only put the brakes on such tendacies?

If there was truly a cure then they should have been completely cured of homosexual attraction then, and have no same sex desires. They have basically forced themselves into the cage then,basically trying to keep their same sex attraction under check but that is about all it is. Doesn't seem to be to me a cure because it doesn't truly change the person.

Another point to consider, if God had meant a person to be cured wouldn't he had provided the means and deliverance to do so? If there was truly "freedom" for the person who chooses go into reparative therapy wouldn't it mean there would be a way for them to be able to be free of all their homosexual tendacies and desires? If God had truly meant them to be delivered wouldn't he have heard their prayers and helped set them "free"?

[ladyinred]

Let's look at a medical analogy of the word "cure", what does it mean ? To be rid of or free of a certain disease. For example a cancer patient is cured only when there are no cancer cells or evidence of the disease in the body.

Ok, let's look at the opposite side of this analogy in promoting a " cure" for homosexuality, are they truly "cured" of homosexuality when they still have same sex attractions? Have they become completely rid of those feelings and desires? It doesn't seem to be so, so in effect they are not truly "cured", for if they were they would have to be completely rid of homosexual tendacies and be only attracted to the opposite sex with no inclination to be attracted to the same sex. In other words to be "truly heterosexual" they would only have the tendacies and opposite sex attractions of a "heterosexual"

[scott snedeker]

Denial is a psychological defense. A good first line temporary mechanism.
I see it in catastrophic circumstances in my patients frequently.

Allow people their denial at first but later help them to move on to the next step.

I'm certain that Exgay status is a form of denial. But the individual is still looking for affirmation. I like the kindness that our more courgeous members extend to people who identify themselves as "exgay."

Soulforce members provide good samaritan gifting llike no other people i have ever come to know, and I have come to know thousands in my 16 years of practice. You all will never know how many lives you have saved and touched.

I am privileged to know Lady in red, Daniel, Zerbie, Kara, Daniel, Unca Andy, Steve and the rest of ya!

[ladyinred]

Scotty I'd like to say this too. Is Why married? I don't know but according to the religious right to be considered heterosexual you must be married in a relationship and have children, remember they say that God only mandates sex between a man and a woman for procreation.

So even if Why is single and not having sex outside the marriage, according to their standards he is still not heterosexual. Because the whole purpose of conversion therapy is that Homosexual people must change and eventually be in a married relationship with the opposite sex, why else would they coerce or try to force homosexuals into the hetero lifestyle?

The main purpose is to change the sexual behavior of the person, so they will have a sexual relationship with the opposite sex ( in the context of marriage), and since they advocate that God has said that married couples be fruitful and multiply ( The argument for procreation) other behavior that contradicts that to them would be considered "off balance" and out of alignment according to their interpretation of scripture. Remember they stress family "values" in the context of husband and wife and children. This sounds pretty convoluted doesn't it. Remember they also take a strong defense against single parenting, to them marriage and family is the ultimate ideal. It seems to me that any relationship outside the context of marriage is seen as "sinful" by them. Family values as defined by them means only their family values and ideals.

And also I agree with you Scotty, that SoulForce has knocked themselves out to try to keep a dialogue with people open and to try to defuse hostility and misunderstandings which is why they opened their hearts to Why." Hey let's discuss this and talk." Let's talk about the points we don't agree on. You've asked us some questions, and we will be happy to answer them. But unfortunately that conversation seemed to had turned into a one-sided debate on Why's part. I think he has already made up his mind that, "Let me show you the error of your ways, and what the bible says about homosexuality according to my own interpretation and views. I'm not trying to attack him personally or demonize him but to me it seemed like a one way conversation with him going nowhere. These are just my thoughts of course.

However, I would not completely close the door on Why, if he is open to a dialogue and has geniune and sincere questions, or is just soul searching to find answers, I wouldn't write him off.

[alisaeyes]

I can say I know I was a lesbian since I was little...I have hide it for almost 40 years...I find I can not longer live a lie...I am miserable,,, and depress...So I know what I have to do...I am going to a counselor and she is helping me understand who I am and that its OK to be me...I have tried to please everyone in my family...I have heard that I will go to h-ll if I continue with this...hey I am a Baptist,,,I have heard it all...conpassion was not one of them...Until you stand in someone else shoes,,,don't judge them...we are all Gods people,,and only he can...we all interpret the bible for our own judgements..somewhere love isn't usually there...

[kara speltz]

I can say I know I was a lesbian since I was little...I have hide it for almost 40 years...I find I can not longer live a lie...I am miserable,,, and depress...So I know what I have to do...I am going to a counselor and she is helping me understand who I am and that its OK to be me...I have tried to please everyone in my family...I have heard that I will go to h-ll if I continue with this...hey I am a Baptist,,,I have heard it all...conpassion was not one of them...Until you stand in someone else shoes,,,don't judge them...we are all Gods people,,and only he can...we all interpret the bible for our own judgements..somewhere love isn't usually there...

Dear Hobo: Please, please take time to download, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality," from our website. Also please check out "Letter to Louise," you can reach it by going to: http://www.godmademegay.com/Letter.htm

Also check out the videos that you can see from the Soulforce website, particularly I'd recommend two of them, one is "How can I be sure God loves me," and also "There's a Wideness in God's Mercy."

You are exactly as God made you to be. There is no shame in that. One other recommendation I would make is to read Psalm 139, holding in your heart that God has always known who you are from the moment S/He knitted you in your mother's womb and you are wondrous to behold.

I'm so glad you're seeing a counselor. It's a long journey to begin to overcome all of this bigotry, but you'll never regret it, I'm sure of that.

I'll add you to my prayer list.

kara

[Zerbie]

(((( Hobo ))))

Nothin' to say. Just want to give you some great big hugs.
:love: :love: :love:

[Emproph]

Would a god of love punish confusion, even if it were true?

[Daniel]

Zack, your inability to believe or relate to your friends' experience is your own inability (or unwillingness) to believe them, not proof that gay is a choice.

Zack- Zerbie hits the nail on the head. And never a sweeter kinder person will you ever have the chance to meet.

Gay desire is nothing to be ashamed of. Even a little bit of study reveals that homosexuality is part of nature, despite assertions to the contrary.

See: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1382&highlight=nature+exhibition+gay

If you do not have same-sex desires and are now able to love women both emotionally and physically with unfettered ardor, well, bully for you: I am happy that you have found yourself. However, those of us here are happy as we are.. We know God loves us, both as Christians, non-Christians and GLBT persons.

We know God doesn't make junk.

[ladyinred]

Hobo, you will be in my prayers, may God be your comfort and guide. I hope you will truly come to know peace in your life and God's love for who you are.You are in a difficult situation, and it's understandable being where you have been to have mixed feelings about this.

I also encourage you to stick with your counselor and please stay here with us. People here will talk to you ,give you support and love you for who you are. I feel you need a support system right now, so you will know you are not alone in this. God bless you.

Hey I like your picture of the dog in the driver seat by the way. I wish you all the best.

[Bearnabas]

Let me join Zerbie in giving you hugs, Hobo. It takes a great deal of courage to even make that first step.

[ladyinred]

Hobo if you don't mind,I'm going to post this as a resource to you, you can check it out online:Just click below:
http://www.pflag.org/Resources_-_Support_Hotlines.1086.0.html

[Freespirited]

Hello 'Why',

Actually, the text that you quote as being on page 8 is actually on page 7. Here's the whole sentence.



Your question answers itself if you will re-read the first part of the sentence. If you think about the sexual practices that the bible accepts, that would include having more than one wife. Perhaps we should make polygamy legal. That would be biblical and perhaps moral from a literalist point of view.

Here are some of the sexual practices Dr. White quotes.



I believe the point Dr. White is trying to make is that modern Christians are pretty picky about what they accept and reject in the bible. We wouldn't be doing any of the above, would we?

Oh.....before I forget: Jesus condemned divorce. That's another 'sexual practice', you might say. Modern believers, its seems, give themselves a pass there too, while condemning the loving and consensual relationships of gay people.

Seems mightly convenient.

It's way too easy to cast stones about 'other' people's morality.

Let me be frank here: your question "why do we accept it if the bible condems it?" seems to refer to homosexuality, what else could 'it' mean here? You might as well have written "why do we accept homosexuality when the bible condemns it". That's what you're really trying to get at, right? Why beat around the bush?

Let me ask you this. Why don't we simply accept the verses above? Why aren't we stoning people?

When you can answer that question for yourself you'll have your answer.


I love this discussion! but for now I totally agree with the comments quoted above by Daniel! you rock!! I love your bluntness and honesty!


LEANDRO

[Freespirited]

I can say I know I was a lesbian since I was little...I have hide it for almost 40 years...I find I can not longer live a lie...I am miserable,,, and depress...So I know what I have to do...I am going to a counselor and she is helping me understand who I am and that its OK to be me...I have tried to please everyone in my family...I have heard that I will go to h-ll if I continue with this...hey I am a Baptist,,,I have heard it all...conpassion was not one of them...Until you stand in someone else shoes,,,don't judge them...we are all Gods people,,and only he can...we all interpret the bible for our own judgements..somewhere love isn't usually there...


Dear Hobo you are not alone! we support you one hundred percent in your spiritual search for your true identity! sweety I can assure you that sexual identity is very much part of your spirituality as well, they are both connected! I think you are alright thou and very well set into recovery when you say:

we all interpret the bible for our own judgements..somewhere love isn't usually there...

Love is in the Bible, unfortunately many so called scholars of the Bible do that invision it in their hearts.


Hugs!

LEANDRO