Privilege - Are we ready to let it go

[kara speltz]

This thread actually came out of the IMUS discussion. And I am really hoping that we can discuss this really important issue out of the context of blame. One of my pet issues is the issue of privilege, whether it comes out of class, race, gender, culture or whatever. Privilege often means that we walk around this world with a sense of entitlement and whether we mean to or not we often step on other people in the process.

I was introduced to the recognition of privilege and the damage it can cause many years ago as I worked with anti-racist groups in Boston. It took me years to really grasp my white-skin privilege. I was in constant denial. But the more time I spent with people of color the more I could comprehend it. It was particularly clear the year I got a ticket in Cleveland, supposedly for going through a stop sign, but it was really about DWB - driving with a black person.


As a woman, I've experienced the costs of male privilege a lot. I know that I upset a number of guys when I have talked about the combination of white male privilege. As a lesbian I've experienced the costs of heterosexual privilege. As Americans, (15% of the world's population consuming 85% of the world's resources) we experience what may be the most vast oppression created by our privilege.

As people of faith, it seems to me that discovering, recognizing, and rejecting that privilege is one of the most important and one of the most difficult of "chores" we are faced with. I call it a chore, because it's such hard work.

And I guess, my question in this post is this: Are we, as the Beloved Community, committed to examining this issue and really attempting to let go of the entitlements and the assumptions that go along with those privileges?

kara

[dsdrane]

I read somewhere that some of straight male "discomfort" with homosexuality, specifically male homosexuality (for those who have it), whether conscious or not, stems from the incredulity that a male would "voluntarily" give up the dominance bestowed on all card-carrying members of the male sex. Apparently, this can threaten them to their very core, because this isn't something you're supposed to think about; it simply is. Those who do question are heretics to be silenced.

But why, one might reasonably ask, is the dominion perceived to be so fragile that such extreme measures must be put in force. The answer is because their dominance is so very fragile, and once the people they dominate figure it out, they're toast.

I use straight male here, but any group that is the most privileged in a particular situation will do.

I once tried to explain to my (straight) sister that many, if not most, people are able to live their lives completely unself-consciously: they date; they marry; they have kids; they have grandkids; they grow old; the government works for them and supports them in myriad ways; the world, in short, is their oyster. They need only show up. It's the rare person of this kind of privilege who can conceptualize not being a part of this banquet.

We, who have known what it is to be on the other side of the glass, looking in, can.

I finally came out to myself while on a trip to China in March 1988, where I was visiting my best friend during our junior year abroad. It is only recently that I realized that being in China actually was part of the catalyst that pushed me into my sexual self-awareness. I had always felt different, but nothing prepared me for how different I was going to feel in the middle of Beijing at a time when many were still wearing Mao suits, the skyline was just starting to be built above one or two storeys, and bicycles easily outnumbered motor vehicles on the streets. Tall, with long-ish, light-brown hair, an earring, and Western clothes, I stuck out like a sore thumb. People made no pretense about openly staring at me (especially, I was later told, Chinese tourists from the countryside, who, quite possibly, had never seen a Westerner in person before).

The shock to the system, I now see, was sufficient to wake me up from my ostensibly straight stupor. (No doubt the fact that I realized I was in love with the best friend I was visiting played a role, too.)

But, to get back to my point, by acknowledging and then communicating my gayness, I was "voluntarily" giving up part of my privilege. And this is why being gay is such a gift; it forces us out of unself-consciousness and, in so doing, allows us to understand (not fully, but more than we would have otherwise) others similarly situated.

There are plenty of ways to lose privilege that are not voluntary: aging, losing a limb or one's vision, developing a disease, etc., but to "voluntarily" give it up is anathema. An attempt follows to divert attention away from "the man behind the curtain" by accusing the ingrates of wanting "special rights", of wallowing in our victimhood or celebrating our minority status. This may work for awhile, but at some point all will see that we receive so much more than we lose, including the gift of real, meaningful sight. And, if we look around us, we realize there are way more of us on this side of the glass...

...and eventually someone will ask: what are we waiting for?

[Zerbie]

Geez, Kara, way to start a Tuesday morning. :p :lol: I'm tired and grumpy and have tons of work today, so bear that in mind when reading this reply. :p

Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by giving up privilege? If it's material, I can easily see how that might be done. But when it is circumstantial?? When it's in the mind of another person??
Maybe a different direction for the question would be not are we willing to give up privilege but, what can we do to see those down-trodden lifted up, the playing-field leveled, so that privilege (at some utopian future day) is no longer an issue?

We're here. It should be taken for granted that everyone be loved, fed, cared about, lifted to their highest potential.

Didn't you once post some relevant links? Maybe seeing as how this issue is your passion, you could post a list of ways to "start small" at diminishing the effects of our own privilege, or of extending that 'privilege' to everyone. I know for my part, if I don't think in very small terms, I get overwhelmed and feel it's hopeless so I won't even try. If it's small though, then I feel capable of taking the step. (Example, it's easy and simple to understand that I can bring my own bags to the grocery store and cut down waste that way, so it has become a habit. It's small, but that's about the only level where I feel confident of even attempting to make a difference.)

[nmwolfboy]

Thanks Kara for starting this thread.

One thing that has always struck me about privilege is how it can be nearly invisible at times. From where i stand, those who benefit from it are rarely taught to see it.

My previous partner of 17 years (Jim) is black. i am white (or Anglo, as we're typically referred to here in New Mexico). During our years together there were many occasions when the 'scales fell from my eyes.'

For example - when we lived in Pittsburgh, there was a rather posh shopping district near our neighborhood. Frequently i would walk through that area, window-shopping and entering stores that caught my interest. Since at the time my nephew was small, one of my favorite stores to browse was a toy store that specialized in unusual and educational toys from around the world. i am definitely guilty of being a doting uncle who liked to spoil the kid!

The clerks at this store were always friendly and helpful. One of my pet peeves when shopping are clerks who hover - for two years these folks were content to let me browse undisturbed. Until the day that Jim accompanied me into the store. The change in the clerks' behavior was shocking. They followed us around like suspicous dogs, they glared, they behaved as if we were known felons there to rob them blind. i was livid and wanted to blast them, but Jim kept saying "Let's just leave, let's just leave."

At other times it would be even simpler experiences. When Jim accompanied me on my long walks, we'd routinely hear the click of car door locks as we walked by, or we'd witness white women clutching their purses when they neared us. When i walked alone or only with other friends who were white, this never happened. Jim would always turn these instances into jokes, "Like i'd want that piece of crap car" or "i've probably got more money in my pocket right now than she makes in a week." Still i wonder - what effect would it have on me if i'd grown up as the "other" that these white folks felt free to project their fears onto?

i've learned to look around at the people in every situation i'm in. Do all (or most) look like me? How about the people in positions of authority or at the top of the pay scale? How about the people who are working their butts off, but get little respect, authority or compensation?

And then there are the harder questions - where & how have i reaped the benefits of having pale skin? Of being male? Because i undoubtedly have. i doubt it's possible to live in our society as a white male and not have benefitted from privilege somehow, somewhere, somewhen. When & how have i challenged privilege when it's extended to me? How do i feel & respond when privilege is not extended to me?

[antonyh]

As people of faith, it seems to me that discovering, recognizing, and rejecting that privilege is one of the most important and one of the most difficult of "chores" we are faced with. I call it a chore, because it's such hard work.

And I guess, my question in this post is this: Are we, as the Beloved Community, committed to examining this issue and really attempting to let go of the entitlements and the assumptions that go along with those privileges?

kara

Can you give me some examples of how a white male might let go of entitlements and the assumptions that go along with those privileges? I'm with you about this idea of privilege, but not sure how to deal with the idea of letting go of entitlement.

I was thinking that it would be easier to work to make sure everyone had the entitlements of the priviledged.

[BenL]

Thanks, Kara. As always, insightful and a bit discomforting.

As many of you know, I am married to an FTM (female-to-male transsexual). Privilege is a constant topic in the FTM community, precisely because FTMs come out of a less-privileged gender into the more-privileged one. Yet, as trans people, they feel at the bottom of the food chain in our cisgender-centric, heterocentric society. So, like many gay men and lesbians, they can only get access to that privilege if they pretend to be someone they're not. Many of them are adamant that they are only trans during transition, that after transition they're simply male. They would deny doing this to gain privilege, but that's what happens when they go stealth.

In the last serious online debate I recall on the topic, an African American FTM laid it on the line: the privilege comes with maleness, yes, but first and foremost in the U.S. it comes from skin color. The white participants were aghast: They would never do anything consciously to invoke privilege. Yet, it is there nevertheless.

I see the notion of privilege at play in the history of the current struggle in the Anglican Communion. The church in the southern hemisphere for years was subject to the white European or American missionaries, who taught them the very conservative religious views they embrace. Now, they are being asked to change their world view and see glbt folk as normative. To them, it is a double standard. They are part of conservative cultures to begin with. The conservatism has helped them hold back inroads from the dominant "northern" culture. It is easy to see why they resist this change in attitude. I know that there is much, much more at play here, but the culture of privilege exerted by the Western world sure has set up a powerful resistance to the way we think.

Just some random thoughts on privilege to add to the conversation.

[kara speltz]

Geez, Kara, way to start a Tuesday morning. :p :lol: I'm tired and grumpy and have tons of work today, so bear that in mind when reading this reply. :p

Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by giving up privilege? If it's material, I can easily see how that might be done. But when it is circumstantial?? When it's in the mind of another person??
Maybe a different direction for the question would be not are we willing to give up privilege but, what can we do to see those down-trodden lifted up, the playing-field leveled, so that privilege (at some utopian future day) is no longer an issue?

We're here. It should be taken for granted that everyone be loved, fed, cared about, lifted to their highest potential.

Didn't you once post some relevant links? Maybe seeing as how this issue is your passion, you could post a list of ways to "start small" at diminishing the effects of our own privilege, or of extending that 'privilege' to everyone. I know for my part, if I don't think in very small terms, I get overwhelmed and feel it's hopeless so I won't even try. If it's small though, then I feel capable of taking the step. (Example, it's easy and simple to understand that I can bring my own bags to the grocery store and cut down waste that way, so it has become a habit. It's small, but that's about the only level where I feel confident of even attempting to make a difference.)

Lots to respond to in all of these postings! And I'm delighted, because my fear was that no one would be interested in discussing this.

So for a start, let me quote from this website:
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

Daily effects of white privilege
Elusive and fugitive
Earned strength, unearned power
"I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group"

Peggy McIntosh

Through work to bring materials from women's studies into the rest of the curriculum, I have often noticed men's unwillingness to grant that they are overprivileged, even though they may grant that women are disadvantaged. They may say they will work to women's statues, in the society, the university, or the curriculum, but they can't or won't support the idea of lessening men's. Denials that amount to taboos surround the subject of advantages that men gain from women's disadvantages. These denials protect male privilege from being fully acknowledged, lessened, or ended.

Thinking through unacknowledged male privilege as a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there are most likely a phenomenon, I realized that, since hierarchies in our society are interlocking, there was most likely a phenomenon of while privilege that was similarly denied and protected. As a white person, I realized I had been taught about racism as something that puts others at a disadvantage, but had been taught not to see one of its corollary aspects, white privilege, which puts me at an advantage.

I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.

Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are just seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

My schooling gave me no training in seeing myself as an oppressor, as an unfairly advantaged person, or as a participant in a damaged culture. I was taught to see myself as an individual whose moral state depended on her individual moral will. My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."

[kara speltz]

I read somewhere that some of straight male "discomfort" with homosexuality, specifically male homosexuality (for those who have it), whether conscious or not, stems from the incredulity that a male would "voluntarily" give up the dominance bestowed on all card-carrying members of the male sex. Apparently, this can threaten them to their very core, because this isn't something you're supposed to think about; it simply is. Those who do question are heretics to be silenced.

But, to get back to my point, by acknowledging and then communicating my gayness, I was "voluntarily" giving up part of my privilege. And this is why being gay is such a gift; it forces us out of unself-consciousness and, in so doing, allows us to understand (not fully, but more than we would have otherwise) others similarly situated.
There are plenty of ways to lose privilege that are not voluntary: aging, losing a limb or one's vision, developing a disease, etc., but to "voluntarily" give it up is anathema. An attempt follows to divert attention away from "the man behind the curtain" by accusing the ingrates of wanting "special rights", of wallowing in our victimhood or celebrating our minority status. This may work for awhile, but at some point all will see that we receive so much more than we lose, including the gift of real, meaningful sight. And, if we look around us, we realize there are way more of us on this side of the glass...

...and eventually someone will ask: what are we waiting for?

Exactly Ben. That is indeed one of the gifts of being gay. I've told this story in different threads before, because it's so powerful. But I'm going to tell it again. Jimmy Creech the defrocked Methodist minister is one of my heros. In brief the story was that he was defrocked at a trial in Nov., 1999. Soulforce attended the Methodist conference in Cleveland in 2000. We were scheduled to have a meeting with some of the friendlier Methodist bishops and so we prepared a list of demands. One of them was that we wanted Jimmy returned to ministry and recommended he be sent out to California, which was one of the frienlier Methodist areas.

Prior to meeting with the bishops, Jimmy addressed us and said. We need to take my return to ministry out of the demands. "I cannot stand on my heterosexual privilege. I won't be brought back to the ministry until every LGBT who has been defrocked or refused ordination, solely because of who they are, is ordained.

We LGBTs stood there amazed. It had never occurred to us that getting Jimmy's ministry back would indeed be using heterosexual privilege. Jimmy's been my hero ever since then. What he gave up was huge. He wasn't a wealthy man and he had not a lot of savings, and no possible job possibilities to support his family. That was truly redemptive suffering. That story, still brings tears to my eyes.

Kara

[kara speltz]

I was afraid that this would be a subject people were uncomfortable exploring. After the initial posting, which got a good response, it seems folks would rather not explore it, which makes me sad.

Perhaps my first posting felt too academic. Or perhaps people just don't know where to begin on this one. It certainly is not an easy subject to deal with. And I suspect that in terms of white skin privilege, it's not something you can view from afar. I wasn't able to see it until I began spending time with people of color on a regular basis.

As for male privilege, it's so ingrained in our society, that it becomes invisible. I do have another posting from that same piece I posted previously, but given it got no response, I'll pass on it.

kara

[Vanessa White]

For me, speaking from the perspective of white, female, lesbian, I don't find privilege to be something too scary to talk about and examine. I do believe it becomes almost unconscious in our being as far as our possession of it, because it is ingrained in all aspects of society. I have done a great deal of training with groups on Diversity and celebrating differences, and one aspect that my attendees, most of whom are there by choice mind you, have the most trouble with, is acknowledging the privilege that they possess by being caucasian, male, heterosexual, able bodied, etc. I believe that these persons are thinking that if they acknowledge that they possess privilege of some sort, then that means that they are actively exerting that privilege at the expense or harm of others. There aren't many persons that want to have long, thoughtful dialogue about it. These dialogues have to take place with an openness for people to honestly express their feelings without a climate of defensiveness to it. By me acknowledging that I possess white privilege, it does not mean that I utilize that privilege actively by any means. However, I do perpetuate that privilege if I don't increase my awareness to combat it when I see it. I don't know if that means giving up part of the privilege, helping others to gain privilege in a more equitable way, not sure what it looks like. But doing serious self-examination does not mean beating myself up, nor negating the other person's experience. It means working toward change, slow steady change, that benefits all of us in a more equal way.

[BenL]

I think this is a case of being easier to spot the mote in someone else's eye than it is to own up to the sty in my own, Kara. I, too, was hoping to see more debate.

As a gay man, I don't feel I have any privilege in our heterocentric society. However, if I pretend to be straight, or at least if I don't push my queerness into anyone's face, I have automatic privilege both from gender and my skin tone. It's so comfortable that I barely notice it.

The truth, I think, is that we are called to grant everyone privilege, not take away privilege. The difficulty is that universal privilege seems like no privilege at all, so those who have it don't want to lose it. But all the great religions talk about equality before the divine, or as Dr. Scotty reminds us, unconditional love for everyone.

Human nature being what it is, some people will always try to take privilege to themselves. I think our job as gay men, lesbians, bisexual and transgender people, who have felt excluded, is to include as many people as we can under God's rainbow umbrella.

[kara speltz]

For me, speaking from the perspective of white, female, lesbian, I don't find privilege to be something too scary to talk about and examine. I do believe it becomes almost unconscious in our being as far as our possession of it, because it is ingrained in all aspects of society. I have done a great deal of training with groups on Diversity and celebrating differences, and one aspect that my attendees, most of whom are there by choice mind you, have the most trouble with, is acknowledging the privilege that they possess by being caucasian, male, heterosexual, able bodied, etc. I believe that these persons are thinking that if they acknowledge that they possess privilege of some sort, then that means that they are actively exerting that privilege at the expense or harm of others. There aren't many persons that want to have long, thoughtful dialogue about it. These dialogues have to take place with an openness for people to honestly express their feelings without a climate of defensiveness to it. By me acknowledging that I possess white privilege, it does not mean that I utilize that privilege actively by any means. However, I do perpetuate that privilege if I don't increase my awareness to combat it when I see it. I don't know if that means giving up part of the privilege, helping others to gain privilege in a more equitable way, not sure what it looks like. But doing serious self-examination does not mean beating myself up, nor negating the other person's experience. It means working toward change, slow steady change, that benefits all of us in a more equal way.

Vanessa: I couldn't agree more with you and thank you for reminding me of another privilege I didn't list which is that of being able-bodied, though as I approach my 70th birthday that privilege too is waning. But I do agree that self-examination doesn't mean beating ourselves up. Now might be the time to post that second part of the piece I posted earlier, because it lists some of the things to be aware of in terms of white skin privilege that I'd bet the vast majority haven't thought about much. I'll let this excellent conversation continue and post it in a day or two.

Thanks for the response Ben and Venessa. Clearly both of you have been thinking about these issues for some time now. Just being aware of it, I think is the major step.

kara

[Zerbie]

The post you made a few back where you quoted the article,. . . I think you meant it to address a question I had, but I found the article to be just spinning its wheels. No suggestion of "solutions" or pro-active steps to inspire a more equitable world. So I figured the conversation was over for the time being.

What we're calling privilege seems to be the automatic extension of respect and opportunity: I would call that the appropriate way to treat your neighbor. Therefore it's absence is inappropriate. EVERYONE needs to be valued, cared about, fed, clothed, and have the opportunity for a successful livelihood, medical care, etc. If it's missing, that is a problem.

What ways do those of us who are so privileged and blessed have of extending that to others? There seems to be a scarcity mentality here. Wouldn't the first thing be to combat that? With capitalism out of control and choking much of the world, how does anyone combat scarcity and greed?

Unrelated:
I think I'm starting to "get" the privilege thing more and more. I've been thrown out of home for my involvement with the gay community, and hid a girlfriend during a year when I felt my job and home were at peril. Fast-forward a few years and I'm married. Believe me - I'm VERY aware of heterosexual privilege because all I did was put a diamond on my finger and suddenly - well, there's no describing it. I'm in The Club. ;)

This week I'm feeling male privilege, because I don't have it, and I've just become aware of that.

Just noticed the time - I have to get off the computer. Perhaps more later.

[antonyh]

What we're calling privilege seems to be the automatic extension of respect and opportunity: I would call that the appropriate way to treat your neighbor. Therefore it's absence is inappropriate. EVERYONE needs to be valued, cared about, fed, clothed, and have the opportunity for a successful livelihood, medical care, etc. If it's missing, that is a problem.

What ways do those of us who are so privileged and blessed have of extending that to others? There seems to be a scarcity mentality here. Wouldn't the first thing be to combat that? With capitalism out of control and choking much of the world, how does anyone combat scarcity and greed?


I find myself with Zerbie on this point. We want everyone to be priviledged and that should be the focus of our energy.

I can give you a spectacular example of where white male privilege was ended by legal action. I am from South Africa and after the fall of apartheid, a program of affirmative action was implemented to end the effects of white privilege in South Africa. "To push that transition into the white-owned ranks and make up for the wrongs of the apartheid era, President Nelson Mandela's government backs a plan in which black South Africans 'would need to constitute 69 percent of the workforce at all levels from the top down,' says Jeffery."

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9810/08/safrica.affirmative.action/
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006066
http://www.labour.gov.za/basic_guides/bguide_display.jsp?guide_id=5848

[andrewlittle]

I'll be getting to this one in the morning. Thank you for broaching the subject. I want to read everything very carefully before adding my two cents worth.

[andrewlittle]

Discussion of privilege, or its counterpart prejudice, is always uncomfortable. It takes a good amount of courage to look at your social location, analyze it, reflect on it, and face up to the implications it presents.

While its relatively easy to accept that someone else is disadvantaged, accepting our privilege is much more troublesome.

Someone else's disadvantage can always be, and many times is, viewed as the effects of some other person's actions. Wrestling our privilege, however, requires looking at our own tacit complicity right in the eye. It is painful and scary stuff, and denial is the most natural of defenses. Just as in everything else, however, the level and intensity of denial is many-times an indication of the level of complicity.

Now, complicity has to be viewed through a different lens than "if I am complicit that means I directly caused ..." As Vanessa pointed out, prejudice and privilege are subtle, inherent and insidious. Just as it is impossible to grow up without some kind of baggage, it is impossible to be devoid of bias and privilege.

In a discussion with a twenty-something gay man on another venue, he posited that he could not conscience having sex with a man because it was emasculating, even though he longed for love, affection and cuddling with another man.

The "emasulating" part is what caught my attention. When pressed he stated that if he were to be the catcher, he would be "reduced" to being like a woman. He also said that if he was the pitcher, he would be engaging in dominating someone else. We privately dicussed at length his two most obvious biases, which he initially absolutely denied.

First, he had been raised to believe women were inferior. That was why sex as a catcher was "emasculating". Being the "bottom" reduced him (in his mind) to subservience and being of less "value". As we talked, he became cognizant of how this played out in his daily life - how he used his male privilege whenever he was served by a woman in a restaurant (e.g. he always found reason to lower the tip, which he didn't do with men), how he viewed social issues including abortion (men's rights should be enforced), and many other aspects.

Secondly, he was taught that sex was a process of domination/submission. Because of this, he perceived a heirarchy of legitimacy and value. Those who submit were of less value than those who dominate. Also, those who refused to be "emasculated" were of more value than those who didn't. He established a middle ground in culture's usual heterosexual good/homosexual bad dichotomy. He allowed himself to be disadvantaged by heterosexuals - allowed them their privilege - but believed that celebate homosexuals had a dominant position and more privilege than sexually-active ones.

This man's bias and privilege was both a source of power and prestige for him, and a source of pain and loneliness. That is, I believe, how privilege plays out. To continue to unconsciously rely on privilege prevents each of us from truly examining ourselves and traps us in unconscious actions and behaviors that bring us both benefit and negative consequence. The benefit, usually received as advantage of some sort, requires that someone else is disadvantaged.

In economics, advantage is sought by seeking "more for less". Get more and pay less - the American dream. The offshoot of this, however, is always that someone else gives more and receives less - they receive "less for more". It cannot work any other way. These are unbalanced, inequitable transactions.

If all social interaction is understood as economy (the economy of God is how it is theologically understood), every social engagement is a transaction. If someone has innate privilege and uses it consciously or otherwise, the other person(s) experiences disadvantage. Understanding social location and power provided by our "places" in the power structure of society is essential for living in "right relations".

There is a simple tool I've used many times (although it was originated by someone else whose identity is long ago forgotten) - The Power Flower. In some ways it's kind of hokey, and in some very powerful. I will see if I can find an image of it, and post a brief explanation.

[tpdncr4christ]

Could we possibly tell the difference between privilege (as in what you've earned in life) and what's inheritance (as in what you're born with)?

If I get this correctly, I understand that white males are more privileged than other people, but how can we fix that? I can't help that I'm white. I don't think of that as a privilege.

Privilege is what you earn, and can be taken away, well at least that's what my parents always tell me about the car... Being white can't be taken away. Being male can't be taken away, well not without surgery (and I like my... maleness too much for that thank you, so surgery's not for me).

Being male, being white; isn't that more of... I want to say gift but I might get yelled at. Here, my pastor is always talking about Spiritual Gifts, personality traits that God has granted people to help them spread the Good News and such; i.e: humility, faith, fellowship, healing, sacrifice. Could being white, being male, be a Physical Gift, as in a physical trait that God has granted me, to be used as a tool to help people and do God's work? Could being a black female be considered a Physical Gift, to do just the same?

What I'm trying to say is rather than giving up, or letting go of our "privileges," (the fact that I am a white male) should we maybe use them as gifts to spread the word of God?

[nmwolfboy]

Wow, Andy; food for thought. You too, Austin, and everyone else for that matter.

BenL's comment that we are called upon to grant everyone privilege rings true for me. But then i recognize the truth in the quotation that Kara posted:

My schooling followed the pattern my colleague Elizabeth Minnich has pointed out: whites are taught to think of their lives as morally neutral, normative, and average, and also ideal, so that when we work to benefit others, this is seen as work that will allow "them" to be more like "us."

i see this alot in my career, where i have many interactions with Social Workers. For example, some SWs seek to empower people to become self-advocates; others take a different approach, casting themselves as the 'advocate-saviors' charging in to secure supports for clients "for their own good". Both approaches can make positive differences in the lives of people in need, but in my experience, one affirms the dignity and power of individuals, and the other infantalizes them.

i have been involved in situations wherein i have had no hesitation with assuming the drag of an agressive straight white male to advocate for another person's immediately needed medical treatment. I guess in that way i illustrate Kara's quote. It's not an involved conscious thing on my part - i know how the system works, i know that if i exhibit a certain kind of dominant behavior, especially when dressed a certain way, i can light a fire under understandably overworked hospital staff to get someone triaged or otherwise into a doctor's office for care. I have had no problem being manipulative in those situations, and will use every ounce of white male privilege that the people i encounter are conditioned to extend to me. i refer to it as "having no problem being the asshole."

Well, not exactly 'no problem'. i still see people waiting in ERs and waiting rooms, shuffled off to a limbo of discomfort and pain because they aren't granted the prompt and efficacious care i'm demanding on behalf of someone else.

What i am very conscious of in these instances when i temporarily take on the mantle of undeserved privilege is laying that mantle aside. Once the person for whom i'm advocating gets the immediate care they need to survive, i am grateful to fade into the background. i shut up and let the person for whom i was previously advocating speak for themselves. i may still prompt them into giving the doctor pertinent details of their condition they seem to have forgotten (which they've previously told me about), but other than that i try to be as invisible as possible, except perhaps to express gratitude to the medical staff for their intervention.

So the questions i'm struggling with:
I can demand & probably get privilege extended to me based upon my skin color and gender when someone else cannot - do i then have an obligation to do so on their behalf when that someone else's need is dire & immediate?
How can i possibly make that kind of judgement without arrogantly objectifying the other person as 'less than' me, in need of 'raising up' to the entitlement that i would expect for myself without (much) question?
i feel like i have a decent grasp on the issues of entitlement and privilege in a one-on-one relational way, but what about when dealing with larger human systems?
Oy. :eek:

i hope this discussion keeps rolling!!!

Pax :dove:

scott

[u-dog]

Privilege is what you earn, and can be taken away, well at least that's what my parents always tell me about the car... Being white can't be taken away. Being male can't be taken away, well not without surgery (and I like my... maleness too much for that thank you, so surgery's not for me).

Austin,

Actually, "privelege" in this context is what you DON'T earn. I go into a restaraunt every day for a week and get waited on promptly by a polite and helpful waiter. On the eigth day I come in with my black friend and we sit and wait for 45 minutes to have a rude waiter toss menus at us and ask us brusquely what we want to drink. I have just experienced the reality of my "white privelege". Things I get SIMPLY because I'm white... that come so naturally and reliably that I don't even know that everyone doesn't get them.

My wife and I file our taxes jointly, own property together, have custody of our children together, have visitation rights at the hospital for each other, automatic medical power of attorney if the other is incapacitated. if one of us dies the other automatically inherits everything tax free. To get this we didn't need a lawyer... just a pastor or justice the peace. We signed a single document to create this legal partnership of love and affection.

Had I partnered with (married) another man instead of marrying a woman I would not have these priveleges. I could have SOME of them by paying hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to draw up a pile of legal contracts, but others would be outside my reach.

My wife and I would be welcomed into any neighborhood in our city. Anyone would be willing to rent or sell property to us. We both have respectable jobs. We are welcome in any eating establishment and no one stares or whispers or clucks their tongue. If I was partnered to a man that would not be the case.

All of those are examples of "heterosexual privelege" I didn't earn them. They are mine by virtue of appearing to be straight.

[kara speltz]

Austin,

Actually, "privelege" in this context is what you DON'T earn. I go into a restaraunt every day for a week and get waited on promptly by a polite and helpful waiter. On the eigth day I come in with my black friend and we sit and wait for 45 minutes to have a rude waiter toss menus at us and ask us brusquely what we want to drink. I have just experienced the reality of my "white privelege". Things I get SIMPLY because I'm white... that come so naturally and reliably that I don't even know that everyone doesn't get them.

My wife and I file our taxes jointly, own property together, have custody of our children together, have visitation rights at the hospital for each other, automatic medical power of attorney if the other is incapacitated. if one of us dies the other automatically inherits everything tax free. To get this we didn't need a lawyer... just a pastor or justice the peace. We signed a single document to create this legal partnership of love and affection.

Had I partnered with (married) another man instead of marrying a woman I would not have these priveleges. I could have SOME of them by paying hundreds of dollars to a lawyer to draw up a pile of legal contracts, but others would be outside my reach.

My wife and I would be welcomed into any neighborhood in our city. Anyone would be willing to rent or sell property to us. We both have respectable jobs. We are welcome in any eating establishment and no one stares or whispers or clucks their tongue. If I was partnered to a man that would not be the case.

All of those are examples of "heterosexual privelege" I didn't earn them. They are mine by virtue of appearing to be straight.

Your examples are excellent. We who have the privileges, almost never notice them. They are just taken for granted. Thanks Dave for explaining privilege, so precisely. kara

[tpdncr4christ]

a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most

I see what you all are saying here... I just don't get how it is even possible to give up or let go of my skin. How do I do this? Do I deny things people give me? Do I not apply for any jobs knowing I'll make more than the black man who interveiwed before me? I see what you are saying, but I don't know how to go about it... and I have a feeling it's something I should learn how to do now, because it might be difficult later...

[kara speltz]

a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most

I see what you all are saying here... I just don't get how it is even possible to give up or let go of my skin. How do I do this? Do I deny things people give me? Do I not apply for any jobs knowing I'll make more than the black man who interveiwed before me? I see what you are saying, but I don't know how to go about it... and I have a feeling it's something I should learn how to do now, because it might be difficult later...

Dear Austin: It starts with being aware of your privilege. You can't make decisions based on something you don't acknowledge. And it may not be possible to actually let go of privilege. It may be more countering our privilege by awareness of it and by making sure that others are not denied it. The fact that so many on this post have acknowledged the privilege is really a very exciting thing for me. So many people I encounter, haven't a clue.

Here's the 2nd part of the piece I first presented that focuses on racial privilege, but can apply to other types of privilege.

Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

[u-dog]

Scott (nmwolfboy) said:
I can demand & probably get privilege extended to me based upon my skin color and gender when someone else cannot - do i then have an obligation to do so on their behalf when that someone else's need is dire & immediate?
How can i possibly make that kind of judgement without arrogantly objectifying the other person as 'less than' me, in need of 'raising up' to the entitlement that i would expect for myself without (much) question?
i feel like i have a decent grasp on the issues of entitlement and privilege in a one-on-one relational way, but what about when dealing with larger human systems?
Oy.

Excellent questions Scott! I think it is dangerous but necessary to use the power of the privelege we have on behalf of those who don't have it. Power is a tool and SOMEONE in any situation is going to use it.

I shared a story about my Mom using her privelege to protect a "colored" family at the beach in my hometown in the 50's by moving her blanket next to theirs and striking up a friendly conversation. My Mom was a person of influence in our town by virtue of her growing up there, by virtue of her personality, by virtue of being a member of the press, by virtue of family and affectional connections. She used that influence to sheild people with no privelege. that is not as Good as fighting for a colorblind society on a freedom ride through Alabama but for 1951-2 it was pretty damned courageous and good thing to do. Made a hell of an impression on my brother who was about 6-8 at the time.

The summer I was in Africa, our African friends used to come to the market with us and just stand there being obviously African and obviously our friends so that we didn't get ripped off. They didn't interfere, they just wrapped their standing in the community around us to protect us. By the end of the summer in that smallish city we no longer needed it because we were known. no longer "other" (this wasn't really an issue of reverse racial privelege but rather a privelege born of being "one of us" as opposed to "the outsiders")

I have more than once accompanied people of color, women, or less educated people into official situations and weilded my privelege (usually just by being there) on their behalf. It helps to have people know that "a member of the club who knows the rules" is watching.

Obviously, it would be best if everyone could be a member of the club and have access to the rules, but until that day comes... I'm gonna use what I have in service to others.

[Zerbie]

Ya know, last week I attended that lobby meeting at my congressman's office, advocating for the federal ENDA and hate crimes legislation. I kept wondering if the fact that the two of us who went were married "allies" may have had an effect of increasing "credibility" as advocates. I've noticed that the marginalized groups' assessment of their experience tends to be ignored and something that can't be taken seriously. Ironic, since those are the experts. But if the "outsider" is privileged, then it helps to have the 'outsider' do the advocating.

That has been a peeve of mine since I was little.

It makes absolutely no sense! You would think, if you want to know if racism persists in this country, ask a black person. If you want to know about homophobia, ask a gay person. Those are the experts. I just don't get why it doesn't work this way. My synapses. . . can't find. . . connection.:confused:

[kara speltz]

We've been mostly addressing racial and gender privilege, but let me throw something else into the pot that is even more invisible and that has to do with class and being American. I've posted this particular piece before under the simple living category, but it feels relevant to this discussion also. As to how we deal with this particular privilege, I think Gandhi said it best, when he said, "Live simply, so that others might simply live

What if the world were a village of 100 people?

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look like this. There would be:
61 Asians
12 Europeans
8 from the North America
5 from South America
13 Africans
50 would be female
50 would be male
67 would be non-Christian, 33 would be Christian
of the 67 non-Christian, 18 would be Muslim, 14 Hindu, 6 Buddhist, 13 other religions
89 would be heterosexual, 11 homosexual
59% of the entire world's wealth would be in the hands of only 6 people
43 live without basic sanitation
18 without improved water sources
14 would be unable to read
50 would suffer from malnutrition
1 would be near death, 1 would be near birth
Only 7 would have a secondary education
12 would own a computer
3 would have internet
one adult between the ages of 15-49 would have AIDS
if you have a refrigerator, a bed to sleep in a closet and a roof over your head you are richer than 75% of the rest of the world
if you have a bank account you are one of the 30 wealthiest people
18 will struggle to live on $1/day
53 will struggle to live on $2/day.

[Daniel]

Kara- thought provoking stats.

This thread has me thinking many thoughts. Here's what's been going through my mind. Apologies for the rambling.

My profession is predicated on the work of dead white (presumably) straight men. That's the classical arts for you. Even a great singer like Pauline Viardot- Garcia, a 19th century mezzo-soprano, who studied piano with Liszt and could hold her own against the composers of her day, would not let her compositions see the light of day. It just wasn't done. But she did buck the system by being one of the first singers to stubbornly, yet elegantly, refuse to be treated like a second class person by heads of state, patrons and the like. And that was a big deal for a time that treated musicians like they were slaves and - for women- one step above ladies of the evening.

Times have changed, but sometimes I think not that much in some ways. Women still have a hard time of it becoming conducters, that is, assuming the power positions reserved for the male species. And those who do are routinely whispered about as being lesbian, as if that's a terrble thing.

And people of color? Women have faired better in the operatic world, but men less so, though I have witnessed efforts to change this situation first hand. And there is still the occasional article about whether the operatic world is color blind. I think we are closer to that day than we were 20-40 years ago. But we still have a long way to go. There is a dearth of black men who appear in leading roles.

Some decry that the classical arts are elitist- as if striving for all that is noble, beautiful and expressive is somehow too goody-goody, too set apart, too snooty. I have never understood this charge.

The life of an artist or musician is a hard one, not unlike someone who goes into a monastery. To be really good at it, you have to devote your life to it. It's a solitary endeavor. Lots of practice alone in a room. Over and over again. One has to learn to be at peace with that. And like all things that turn one's attention inward, it can change one's life by revealing what it means to have an inner life, which is something more than chasing stuff and more stuff. It actually gets one to think higher thoughts. And to have feelings. Deep ones. Feelings one can express in ways that help other people feel their own feelings.

Though most of the compositions in western classical music have been written by dead white straight (not all of them btw) men, their legacy plumbs the depths of what it means to be fully human. In hearing their voices, we find our own, whatever the color of our skin. Is that privilege? I don't know know.


To Music
by Franz von Schober (1798-1882)

Oh sacred art, how oft in hours blighted,
While into life's untamed cycle hurled,
Hast thou my heart to warm love reignited
To transport me into a better world!

So often has a sigh from thy harp drifted,
A chord from thee, holy and full of bliss,
A glimpse of better times from heaven lifted.
Thou sacred art, my thanks to thee for this.

What can I say? The music that Schubert wrote for these words (the English translation of the original German leaves something to be desired) says what the words cannot.

[Zerbie]

:) :) :love: Makes me smile that you are thinking about Schubert! :) :) :love:

You really do want to check out the Solomon/Steblin debate in 19th-Century music, that I told you about. They really go into Schubert's relationship with Schober, bla bla bla. I'm sure you'd get very absorbed in the articles.

[antonyh]

What if the world were a village of 100 people?

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look like this. There would be:
61 Asians
12 Europeans
8 from the North America

Thank you for sharing this. I found a video presentation of these numbers:

http://216.70.117.172/me_english.htm

These are challenging numbers.

[kara speltz]

Thank you for sharing this. I found a video presentation of these numbers:

http://216.70.117.172/me_english.htm

These are challenging numbers.

They surely are. The poorest of us on this forum would be considered the richest in most cultures. My grandkids are given just about anything they want and the materialism really bothers me. They're old enough now to begin to comprehend some of this, so I've shared this with the 16 year old. It slowed her down for a nanosecond.

[antonyh]

They surely are. The poorest of us on this forum would be considered the richest in most cultures. My grandkids are given just about anything they want and the materialism really bothers me. They're old enough now to begin to comprehend some of this, so I've shared this with the 16 year old. It slowed her down for a nanosecond.

I live near the "mag mile" in Chicago which is the premier shopping street in Chicago. It is the site of the most gross consumerism you can imagine. Every Christmas anti-consumerist protesters work the mile. One year I saw a group of protesters biking up and down the mile with signs, "Buy more crap".

The sad thing is that for every useless piece of crap our privilege allows us to buy, that money could be used to provide food, clothes and shelter for someone in the world.

How much money should we give away?

[andrewlittle]

The attached diagram is my crude re-creation of the Power Flower. I was first introduced to this tool about 10 years ago when on a mission trip around Cuernavaca, Mexico. It was a teaching tool used by a sociologist that I met from the University of Mexico. He said, at the time, that is was not his own and that he didn't remember its source.

This one I adapted for a study group in cultural ethics that I led several years ago. For each of the twelve inner "sources" of power in the inner circle, there are corresponding dominant characteristics for our culture. These represent the characteristics that grant "privilege" in society.

That privilege is best understand as to whom power gravitates for no other reason that possessing dominant characteristics. For instance, in general dialogue men are more readily listened to than women - white is given deference over people of color, etc.

The idea is to go around the flower and answer "yes" or "no" to whether you possess the dominant characteristic. You then count the number of yes's. For instance, I would score 9 yes points (it was 11 a few years ago), and my wife would score 8.

One point on a scale of twelve may not seem like much, but it does make a difference. The lower the score, the less privilege is extended by dominant culture. It works very wee when it is done with a group and people comapre their scores and discuss their findings, opinions and difficulties.

[andrewlittle]

I just thought I would nudge Kara's very important thread, since I think it has gotten overlooked in some of our more recent and pressing - mmm, dialogues.

[BenL]

Just to reinforce the point Kara is making, look at this column in the Worcester MA Telegram & Gazette today:

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070426/COLUMN01/704260751/1008/NEWSREWIND

It is not crystal clear who is right and who is wrong. School officials are trying to downplay the incident. Mr. Fouracre and others want to push to right what they perceive as a grave injustice. What is clear is that there is a ready perception of guilt associated with race in our society. The last few paragraphs are the most telling for this thread:

Mr. Fouracre, who is white, is a well-known sports broadcaster for radio station WTAG. He said he’s discussed the incident with others and realizes that black and white people view it from different prisms.

“I tell a white person about it and they feel bad,” he said. “I tell a black person and they feel pain. White people just don’t get it. This is about profiling a black student.”

This week, Mr. Bent maintained that racism had nothing to do with the incident. When told of Mr. Fouracre’s claims of racial incidents at Shrewsbury High when the “N” word has been used by students, he didn’t whitewash the issue.

“Is there a perfect place anywhere where there are no hints of racism or intolerance?” he asked. “These are issues every school deals with. But it just wasn’t the case here.”

[kara speltz]

Just to reinforce the point Kara is making, look at this column in the Worcester MA Telegram & Gazette today:

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070426/COLUMN01/704260751/1008/NEWSREWIND

It is not crystal clear who is right and who is wrong. School officials are trying to downplay the incident. Mr. Fouracre and others want to push to right what they perceive as a grave injustice. What is clear is that there is a ready perception of guilt associated with race in our society. The last few paragraphs are the most telling for this thread:

Thanks Ben for posting that story. As a mother of an Afro-American son, and two grandkids, I would agree that much of this incident seems to go back to the stereotyping of our society. It's the same ol same ol, as the expression goes.

I'm glad the parents of those kids fought back and proved them wrong. But I'm sad that the school is unwilling to look at the racism that lies behind it. It could have been such a teaching opportunity.

It is possible that it wasn't sterotyping, but it is probable that it was. So if they had used the incident as a teaching opportunity, it could have benefited everyone.

I personally believe that any white person who claims not to be racist, has their head stuck in the sand. What it reminds me of is back when I lived in a commune during the early days of feminism. We women often asked the men who were looking to join the community. How feminism threatened them. If they said it didn't, that was usually a sign that they didn't comprehend what the struggle was all about.

You can't grow up in this society without being classist, racist, heterosexist or a chauvnist. Its a matter of committing yourself to deprogramming so to speak. But first we have to acknowledge the privileges that society bestows on us.

kara

[BrentRichards]

As just a brief aside to all of this, this presents (at least it presented me, albeit semi-consciously) with one more obstacle to coming out ... with the illusion of being straight, I was firmly in the WASPM power group. To acknoweldge my sexuality is to resign a significant claim to priviledge and "in" status (ironically, "out" is not "in").

[u-dog]

Tell me about it! Not to mention needing to find a new career when I actually LIKE the one I have. It sucks totally. But inauthenticity sucks too.

[BrentRichards]

Tell me about it! Not to mention needing to find a new career when I actually LIKE the one I have. It sucks totally. But inauthenticity sucks too.

That's a big part of the reason I've considered seeking ordination in the [GASP] Episcopal Church. Besides, they have way better taste in vestments.

[u-dog]

Not an option for me.
a) I'm allergic to incence (not true thats an excuse)
b) sanctus bells jangle my nerves (now thats just plain silly)
c) I'm an actual Calvinist (sad but true)
d) Bishops? :eek: (even gay ones would be offensive to me)


I could be MCC I suppose ... except that I would have to struggle against the temptation to try to convert them to the True Faith.

[BrentRichards]

Not an option for me.
a) I'm allergic to incence (not true thats an excuse)
b) sanctus bells jangle my nerves (now thats just plain silly)
c) I'm an actual Calvinist (sad but true)
d) Bishops? :eek: (even gay ones would be offensive to me)


I could be MCC I suppose ... except that I would have to struggle against the temptation to try to convert them to the True Faith.

I'm an actual Calvinist too ... But the RECUS doesn't like us gays.

Actually, I'm a 6-point Calvinist. The 6th point is "Unbelievable Luck" (with thanks to Dr. Steve Brown)

[andrewlittle]

What with a Bishop named Royal Grope - oh, excuse me - that would be Royal Grote.

Anyway, if you want on their email list, you need to contact Rev Headman. Tell me they don't like you.

[BrentRichards]

What with a Bishop named Royal Grope - oh, excuse me - that would be Royal Grote.

Anyway, if you want on their email list, you need to contact Rev Headman. Tell me they don't like you.

Haha! Make my entendre a double!

[Daniel]

That's a big part of the reason I've considered seeking ordination in the [GASP] Episcopal Church. Besides, they have way better taste in vestments.


Darling! Love the dress, but your purse in on fire!