Hello and Question

[P-Kay]

Hello, my name is Kevin. I am a pastor of an Assemblies of God church. I am also a distance ed student at Trinity Bible College in Ellendale North Dakota. I love life, and love people. And even though my beliefs will likely differ from most of you, I find no hatred toward you or fear, which is usually due to ignorance.

I have a question for you. Perhaps this question has been asked of you a thousand times, and if so, please forgive me. Here is my question and its related to your presence at Trinity's campus this week (April 22, 2007).

You believe in and exercise your right to express your beliefs about sexual freedom, right? Do you also believe in the rights of others to disagree with you? Do you believe a school such as Trinity Bible College, which is private, has the right to express it's belief that homosexual activity (along with any sexual activity outside the marriage relationship) is sinful? Or do you believe Trinity should be made to change its view in favor of yours? If so, what makes your belief more valid than theirs?

Please understand, I am asking these questions with all respect and sincerity. I mean no disrespect. I thoroughly enjoy meaningful and productive dialogue and the exchange of ideas. I promise that in any conversation I will seek never to demean anyone. Thanks for any input and comments.

P-Kay

[u-dog]

Welcome to the forum Kevin. the fact is that we have talked this particular question to death and I don't think very many people are going to want to pick it up again. I was trying to find the thread but didn't succeed.

ANY OF YOU OTHER FOLKS REMEMBER WHICH THREAD HAD ALL THE DEBATE ABOUT FREE SPEECH?

Anyway, if somebody posts it... read the whole thread and then if you have a point of view that hasn't been articulated ... fire away!

Dave

[keltic63]

Welcome P-Kay! can I assume that you are not only a pastor, but also a "pk" ? I have been friends with a couple of "pk's" and they really put their parents through some rough times!




Hello, my name is Kevin. I am a pastor of an Assemblies of God church. I am also a distance ed student at Trinity Bible College in Ellendale North Dakota. I love life, and love people. And even though my beliefs will likely differ from most of you, I find no hatred toward you or fear, which is usually due to ignorance.

Glad to hear that. We've had some people come to the forums for the sole purpose of attacking. A few have offended by their vocabulary, and a few have neglected to read the guidelines (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/faq.php) that they agreed to when they joined our forum.

I have a question for you. Perhaps this question has been asked of you a thousand times, and if so, please forgive me. I once got a little arrogant with a "new member" asking the same questions, making the same statements that we've heard so many times; a good member here reminded me that the new dimension in this discussion was that person's presence, and I dismissed it too quickly. Welcome to the discussion. Take some time to look at some of the other threads that discuss recent soulforce activities:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2156
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2634
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2475

You'll see that we arent' afraid of discussion, and we're pretty good at looking critically at ourselves.

Here is my question and its related to your presence at Trinity's campus this week (April 22, 2007).

You believe in and exercise your right to express your beliefs about sexual freedom, right? I'm not sure how many of us view our activism as demanding our sexual freedom, nor do we think of it as expressing our beliefs about said freedom. It's not about sex. It's about love, and being free to live as God made us.


Do you also believe in the rights of others to disagree with you? Whether we believe in that right or not is a moot point. Plenty of people disagree with us, we understand that all too well. It's what happens because of the difference in beliefs that we are challenging. all too many gay and lesbian people are being injured by policies that are held by these private schools. The teachings of these christians are harmful to lgbt people, and it is this spiritual violence, which sometimes lends tacit approval to physical violence, that we are opposing.

Do you believe a school such as Trinity Bible College, which is private, has the right to express it's belief that homosexual activity (along with any sexual activity outside the marriage relationship) is sinful? Or do you believe Trinity should be made to change its view in favor of yours? If so, what makes your belief more valid than theirs?come let us reason together. Those who teach that homosexuality is wrong, often do so out of prejudice, using the scriptures to support their own opinions.

Some of these schools hide behind the "no sex outside of marriage" policy to persecute gay and lesbian students. Very often, the discipline applied to straight students having premarital sex is not as severe as the discipline applied to gay and lesbian students.
even more dishonest, some christians degrade gays and lesbians for "living in sin" (having sex outside of marriage) yet refuse to allow gays and lesbians to marry, even in a civil ceremony.

Please understand, I am asking these questions with all respect and sincerity. I mean no disrespect.I see that, and you've done a pretty good job.

I thoroughly enjoy meaningful and productive dialogue and the exchange of ideas. I promise that in any conversation I will seek never to demean anyone. Thanks for any input and comments.

P-KayI will put out this caveat for you: many of us are former AoG kids. We have been deeply hurt by this denomination. I am a former A0G kid and member; I look back at my time in that church and resent the damage that it did to me and my family, and it's more than just the teachings about lgbt people.

welcome, Kevin.

Steve (keltic, moderator)

[keltic63]

Welcome to the forum Kevin. the fact is that we have talked this particular question to death and I don't think very many people are going to want to pick it up again. I was trying to find the thread but didn't succeed.

ANY OF YOU OTHER FOLKS REMEMBER WHICH THREAD HAD ALL THE DEBATE ABOUT FREE SPEECH?

Anyway, if somebody posts it... read the whole thread and then if you have a point of view that hasn't been articulated ... fire away!

Dave

Here's the one You're thinking about: started by JacoBison (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2426)

[u-dog]

thanks Keltic! See P-kay? very accommodating folks around here :D

[P-Kay]

Thanks for the response, keltic63. I'm sorry for the hurt you and others have experienced, whether intended or not by the person(s) representing AoG. No, I'm not a PK. That's my nickname. You see, I moved to this town 8 years ago to pastor this small church in Smalltown, USA. It's predominately hispanic and Roman Catholic. I'm an outsider, non-hispanic, non-Catholic. That's three strikes against me to start with. But the youth I began hangin' with called me PK instead of Pastor Kevin. That's when I knew I was accepted here. Now the name just sticks for just about everyone in town.

You mention that some people teach that homosexuality is wrong, often out of prejudice, and then use scripture to back it up. I think that whenver we take our own beliefs to scripture and then look for the scripture to back us up we are in error and arrogant. A humble person will go to the scriptures asking what God would say to him/her. When my beliefs and views differ from what I read, I must be the one in the wrong, because God is God and cannot be wrong. Therefore, I must change. I must go to God's Word, let it stand on its own, and let God's Word change me - not the other way around. In fact I'm pretty sure that one effective definition of a cult is an organization that forms its own beliefs and then searches for scripture to support it, rather than the other way around.

In regard to institutions using "no sex outside of marriage" as a way to persecute gays and lesbians - that may be true in some instances, but we'd have to be God to really know their true motive, so why pretend to? As far as Trinity goes, I know that two students this year were expelled from school because the girl had the guy in her room. That, in itself, is a violation of the rules these students agreed to without anyone twisting their arm. They chose to go against the rules - they faced the consequences. So I don't think this particular school can be rightly accused of using the "no sex outside of marriage" thing as a way to persecute gays and lesbians. Can't really speak to anyone else.

As far as AoG goes - I would never pretend it to be a perfect organization. If it were I couldn't be a part of it, because I'm not perfect and my involvement would ruin its perfection. Also I was not raised in AoG, I was raised baptist and for a while was considered a heretic for changing.

So from your perspective - what do you (soulforce as a whole) hope to accomplish at a place like Trinity Bible College? Is it your desire to change their policy? Their beliefs? Or just to engage in good conversation? Is it for media attention? To make the school look homophobic? (They probably don't need any help there - they can do that on their own.)

One thing I would say - I admire the boldness of soulforce people. If true Christians would come out of their own closet and give reasoned answers for what they believe and why, Christianity may not be losing the battle for our culture. Most Christians I know have adopted a live and let live mindset, which leaves their brand of Christianity "unsalty" and without effect in our world.

Regards,

P-Kay

[antonyh]

You believe in and exercise your right to express your beliefs about sexual freedom, right? Do you also believe in the rights of others to disagree with you? Do you believe a school such as Trinity Bible College, which is private, has the right to express it's belief that homosexual activity (along with any sexual activity outside the marriage relationship) is sinful? Or do you believe Trinity should be made to change its view in favor of yours? If so, what makes your belief more valid than theirs?
P-Kay

I would add these two threads to your reading list:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2477
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2599

One of the remarkable things about Soulforce is that they are open to critique and they will push you to think about your views. I admire this greatly and it sets them apart in a radical way from many of the schools they are visiting. It shows unequivocally that they are not insecure about what they believe.

I want to paste something I wrote in thread 2599 above. You will never understand what Soulforce is doing if you confine it to "I believe this, you believe that." So here is what I wrote before:

You are assuming that all Soulforce is about is intellectual discussion and argumentation, the exchange and challenge of "truth".

Soulforce is a group of people who have come together because of their collective suffering as gay and lesbian people in the very institutions that they are confronting. You only have to spend time reading people's stories to realize the collective suffering represented in this place.

I would encourage you to read the Montreat College entry to get a feel for the degree of suffering caused by these institutions. I have also added a link to Central Bible College, an Assemblies of God college:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2672
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?p=23284#post23284

This suffering is found behind every click in these forums if you read with a sensitive, compassionate heart.

There comes a point in time where you have to roll up your sleeves and say, "No more suffering". You have to stop the cycle of violence. Soulforce is not taking up arms against these institutions. They are using tools of nonviolent resistance used by Ghandi and King. They are saying to these institutions that no matter what your theology says, the pain and suffering you are causing your fellow human beings has to stop.

I really believe that when you alleviate suffering in the world, you make it a better place for everyone.

Let me assure you that the Soulforce is not creating suffering for these institutions. Irritation, agitation perhaps, but not suffering. I don't think any college presidents are going to run out and commit suicide because Soulforce visited.

[P-Kay]

Hello Antonyh,

Thanks. A few thoughts. One, I get your point about the "my beliefs, your beliefs" thing. But that aside, how loving would I be if I truly believed you to be in danger and refused to warn you because I didn't want to hurt your feelings? If you're sleeping and a fire breaks out in your apartment, should I just go about my business and forget the danger you're in because you have a do not disturb sign on the door? That wouldn't be very loving, would it?

These people in these institutions truly need some better ways of connecting, for sure. But their beliefs (whether true or not) define who they are. If they really believe and they stop speaking it they would become the most hate-filled people in the world, because they would see the world going to hell, and shrug it off saying, "To bad for you." That's not very loving. In fact that would be incredibly cold.

So you have to go back to an exchange of ideas in regards to "truth". Is there a God or isn't there? If so, why did God create us? Is there a heaven and a hell? Is the Bible God's Word or just a book? What does it say? Does it claim to be God's Word?

Just because I "believe" something to be true doesn't make it true. But just because someone else doesn't believe it, doesn't make it untrue, either. I can stand on a freeway all day long, believing that the semi isn't real. But when it grinds me into the pavement, it doesn't really matter what I believed, right? So in the end you have to get back to a discussion about beliefs. To avoid it is to avoid a meaningful dialogue.

So while I certainly sympahtize and apologize for hurts caused to you and others, both sides need to lay aside their emotions and engage in fruitful conversation about beliefs.

As I mentioned in another post - I don't go to God's Word to find ways to tell you how to live. I go to it so God can tell me how to live. God shows me all kinds of things I need to change. That doesn't mean God hates me. It just means He's the creator and He sets the standard and He's trying to help me meet the standard so that we can have fellowship. Does God love me? Absolutely. Is it because I'm holy or because I measure up. Absolutely Not! But God's love toward me and God's approval are two different things. God will certainly accept me the way I am - but if I have sin in my life he will never leave me that way. Why? It is because God loves me that He seeks to change me. How loving would God be to leave me in sin, when that sin will lead me to death? God, therefore, confronts my sin, so that I will deal with it, repent and change (by His power). Then I can be with Him. Then His love is realized.

[keltic63]

So while I certainly sympahtize and apologize for hurts caused to you and others, both sides need to lay aside their emotions and engage in fruitful conversation about beliefs.

As I mentioned in another post - I don't go to God's Word to find ways to tell you how to live. I go to it so God can tell me how to live. God shows me all kinds of things I need to change. That doesn't mean God hates me. It just means He's the creator and He sets the standard and He's trying to help me meet the standard so that we can have fellowship. Does God love me? Absolutely. Is it because I'm holy or because I measure up. Absolutely Not! But God's love toward me and God's approval are two different things. God will certainly accept me the way I am - but if I have sin in my life he will never leave me that way. Why? It is because God loves me that He seeks to change me. How loving would God be to leave me in sin, when that sin will lead me to death? God, therefore, confronts my sin, so that I will deal with it, repent and change (by His power). Then I can be with Him. Then His love is realized.


many of us have found affirmation from God concerning our orientations. There's nothing wrong with us as gay and lesbian people. We sin, but loving whom we love is not one of those sins. This is no longer open to debate.

Again, these institutions, colleges and denominations, hold beliefs that do damage, spiritual violence, often leading to physical harm, of God's gay and lesbian children. This is what we are speaking against. Somewhere on this site is a story about someone rescuing drowning victims from a river. he gets help from people standing on shore to save those victims, then runs upstream to find another group of people throwing the victims into the river. soulforce is here to go to the people who are throwing us into the river to drown.

In so much as you feel you need to speak to those "in danger," we feel the need to speak to those who are putting lgbt people in danger.

[Zerbie]

HAs I mentioned in another post - I don't go to God's Word to find ways to tell you how to live. I go to it so God can tell me how to live. God shows me all kinds of things I need to change. That doesn't mean God hates me. It just means He's the creator and He sets the standard and He's trying to help me meet the standard so that we can have fellowship. Does God love me? Absolutely. Is it because I'm holy or because I measure up. Absolutely Not! But God's love toward me and God's approval are two different things. God will certainly accept me the way I am - but if I have sin in my life he will never leave me that way. Why? It is because God loves me that He seeks to change me. How loving would God be to leave me in sin, when that sin will lead me to death? God, therefore, confronts my sin, so that I will deal with it, repent and change (by His power). Then I can be with Him. Then His love is realized.

This is an admirable way to apply such principals to one's own life.

Unfortunately, PK, for some persons, it disintegrates from there because others do not stop at applying their beliefs to themselves - they actively attempt to mold everyone else into complying with their beliefs, actively ignoring the very reasonable objections of those of other persuasions against being so forced. Laws are being passed and initiative ballot measures are being passed that seek to tailor everyone else's lives to the specific interpretations of a few. If my particular way of life were to be forced by law onto others, there would be outrage. So should there be (and there is!), when certain groups attempt to legislate their own particular interpretation of the Bible.

I know my comments are tangential to the discussion of the Soulforce visit, but they are not unrelated.

[P-Kay]

Hi again, keltic63. You write, "many of us have found affirmation from God concerning our orientations. There's nothing wrong with us as gay and lesbian people. We sin, but loving whom we love is not one of those sins. This is no longer open to debate."

Why is this not open to debate? Because you don't want to talk about it anymore? And yet Soulforce goes to these institutions and wants to debate. I don't get it. You want to debate, but you don't want to debate. What gives? You state something as a truth (There's nothing wrong with gay and lesbian people), but yet refuse to debate that. So in order to have dialogue someone who disagrees with you must accept that particular statement as truth - no questions asked - and without any kind of evidence to prove the statement to be true.

It sounds like a one way street. You don't want them to "force" their beliefs on anyone. Yet you want them to accept your point of view without debate. Wouldn't you think I was pretty arrogant if I claimed to have the truth, but refused bring that truth to the table?

[keltic63]

Hi again, keltic63. You write, "many of us have found affirmation from God concerning our orientations. There's nothing wrong with us as gay and lesbian people. We sin, but loving whom we love is not one of those sins. This is no longer open to debate."

Why is this not open to debate? Because you don't want to talk about it anymore? And yet Soulforce goes to these institutions and wants to debate. I don't get it. You want to debate, but you don't want to debate. What gives? You state something as a truth (There's nothing wrong with gay and lesbian people), but yet refuse to debate that. So in order to have dialogue someone who disagrees with you must accept that particular statement as truth - no questions asked - and without any kind of evidence to prove the statement to be true.

It sounds like a one way street. You don't want them to "force" their beliefs on anyone. Yet you want them to accept your point of view without debate. Wouldn't you think I was pretty arrogant if I claimed to have the truth, but refused bring that truth to the table?

my salvation, my place at the table, is not open for debate. I am a christian; I am gay.

[Daniel]

Hi again, keltic63. You write, "many of us have found affirmation from God concerning our orientations. There's nothing wrong with us as gay and lesbian people. We sin, but loving whom we love is not one of those sins. This is no longer open to debate."

Why is this not open to debate? Because you don't want to talk about it anymore? And yet Soulforce goes to these institutions and wants to debate. I don't get it. You want to debate, but you don't want to debate. What gives? You state something as a truth (There's nothing wrong with gay and lesbian people), but yet refuse to debate that. So in order to have dialogue someone who disagrees with you must accept that particular statement as truth - no questions asked - and without any kind of evidence to prove the statement to be true.

It sounds like a one way street. You don't want them to "force" their beliefs on anyone. Yet you want them to accept your point of view without debate. Wouldn't you think I was pretty arrogant if I claimed to have the truth, but refused bring that truth to the table?


Hi PK- Welcome to the Soulforce forum.

Why are gay people's orientation's not up for debate? The answer is pretty simple. Is your (assumably) straight orientation up for debate?

I rather doubt it.

The process that we all go through to identify who and what we are is not merely a belief- it is much much more than that- as a study of the physical sciences and the mental health field reveals: please do not forget that neither area consider being gay a disorder. Should their data be up for 'debate'? Conservative christians would think so surely. However, the cards are stacked against this perspective as history shows.

Christians also once thought that the earth was flat and the center of the universe: they had the verses to back it up too. History has proved them wrong. And it was only a year or two ago that the Catholic church apologized for what it did to Galileo.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/13/story_1349_1.html

I may take a century, but the church at large is going to be repenting of its present day oppression of gay people, the very same persons who fill its choir lofts, pulpits and pews.

[antonyh]

These people in these institutions truly need some better ways of connecting, for sure. But their beliefs (whether true or not) define who they are.


I thought your relationship with the living God made you a new creation, not your beliefs. I thought Christian identity was a transformational reality resulting from justification by faith alone. Have you ever considered that the living God may be bigger than the little 'belief' box you want to fit him in?

It is the association of belief with identity that has removed the Christian church from her true self. Many Christians are so passionate about their beliefs that they are invading the political sphere and are turning their back on an authentic relationship with God.


If they really believe and they stop speaking it they would become the most hate-filled people in the world, because they would see the world going to hell, and shrug it off saying, "To bad for you." That's not very loving. In fact that would be incredibly cold.


When Christian kids commit suicide at Assemblies of God colleges because they are gay, it is time you take a long, hard look at your beliefs. When the streets of Chicago are filled with homeless gay kids from Christian homes, it is time you take a long, hard look at your beliefs.

Soulforce is asking you to sit down with us and look us in the eyes and see the suffering written on our hearts from being among you. Until you weep with us, you will never have the objectivity to interpret the Bible fairly on the gay and lesbian issue.


So while I certainly sympahtize and apologize for hurts caused to you and others, both sides need to lay aside their emotions and engage in fruitful conversation about beliefs.


This is what Soulforce is attempting to do, but they are being turned away just like the lepers, prostitutes and tax collectors were by the Pharisees Jesus rebuked in the New Testament.

[Zerbie]

Hi again, keltic63. You write, "many of us have found affirmation from God concerning our orientations. There's nothing wrong with us as gay and lesbian people. We sin, but loving whom we love is not one of those sins. This is no longer open to debate."

Why is this not open to debate? Because you don't want to talk about it anymore? And yet Soulforce goes to these institutions and wants to debate. I don't get it. You want to debate, but you don't want to debate. What gives? You state something as a truth (There's nothing wrong with gay and lesbian people), but yet refuse to debate that. So in order to have dialogue someone who disagrees with you must accept that particular statement as truth - no questions asked - and without any kind of evidence to prove the statement to be true.

It sounds like a one way street. You don't want them to "force" their beliefs on anyone. Yet you want them to accept your point of view without debate. Wouldn't you think I was pretty arrogant if I claimed to have the truth, but refused bring that truth to the table?

Another thing, PK is this: gay & lesbian people have all heard the belief that there IS something wrong with them. That they are sinful. Immoral. Even disgusting and abominable. In fact, odds are good that EVERYONE has heard this at some time about gay people. It has been taught, dispersed, disseminated, and shouted from the rooftops for centuries. What one all too often does NOT hear is the statement that there is NOTHING wrong with a gay person for being gay.

And anyway - why is it that gay persons should be open to considering their nature to be a pathology? Should straight persons stop and consider whether their innermost being and all their feelings of love and affection might be a pathology?

Here's an answer to your question. Why is the debate over? It's over because the question is the problem. Raising a question about the acceptability of innocent human beings *being* is the source of the entire problem.

Do you know many gay people, personally, as in, face to face? Just curious.

[Zerbie]

Thank you, Antony. :love:

Yes. I noticed that too. Beliefs define who we are?? But beliefs are only thoughts! A human soul is truer, purer, than mere thought. And a human heart is worth infinitely more than a belief.

[P-Kay]

Keltic63 - that's fine. I have no argument with you about whether or not you are Christian and gay. That's not my question. By you support Soulforce, who wants to go to these institutions, writing in advance and seeking to engage in conversation. But then you take the issue off the table. You want them to put their beliefs and faith on the table but you won't. As hypocritical as many "Christians" have been and perhaps are - that too seems hypocritical.

Anyway, Keltic63. It has been a pleasure. I truly mean no disrespect. I was just asking questions and seeking to understand. I wish you all the best in your walk with God.

Highest regards,

Kevin (PK)

[keltic63]

Keltic63 - that's fine. I have no argument with you about whether or not you are Christian and gay. That's not my question. By you support Soulforce, who wants to go to these institutions, writing in advance and seeking to engage in conversation. But then you take the issue off the table. You want them to put their beliefs and faith on the table but you won't. As hypocritical as many "Christians" have been and perhaps are - that too seems hypocritical.

Anyway, Keltic63. It has been a pleasure. I truly mean no disrespect. I was just asking questions and seeking to understand. I wish you all the best in your walk with God.

Highest regards,

Kevin (PK)

did you read any of the other posts here, kevin? the problem isn't simply a matter of belief. the teachings and policies, dogma and doctrines of these schools and denominations do harm to God's children, in particular, the gay and lesbian ones. Do you see how being called an abomination on a regular basis might do some emotional damage to a person? Do you see how teaching that the AIDS crisis was God's just vengeance on gays might cause a young person to turn away from the God who created him or her?

Whom did Jesus turn away? Whom does the church turn away now? expelling lgbt kids, denying gays and lesbians membership, turning them away at the door, is this the church that Jesus founded?

I'm disturbed by your willingness to walk away from this conversation. Is it too difficult for you? Did you expect no confrontation? we can discuss many things, but we will not discuss the rightness or wrongness of our orientation, it just is as it is, nor will we justify ourselves as gay christians. we are here. we are in your churches. we always have been. but when some churches, some ministers, some christians discover that in addition all of the things we do in the house of the Lord, that we are gay or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgendered, we are judged severely on that one point, and most often escorted to the door.

[davidb]

Forgive me if I'm misinformed--but my understanding is that the purpose of the Soulforce visits is not to get into lengthy theological debates with these schools (I think everyone knows the differing viewpoints and agrees to disagree) but to bear witness to the fact that there are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning individuals in every one of these institutions--regardless of their theologies--and to shine a different kind of light on the effects that the schools policies have had on those students.

For many people, this is the first time that they may have met someone who is openly gay and openly christian.

_________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[Daniel]

Keltic63 - that's fine. I have no argument with you about whether or not you are Christian and gay. That's not my question. By you support Soulforce, who wants to go to these institutions, writing in advance and seeking to engage in conversation. But then you take the issue off the table.

PK- To this reader, you seem to be saying two things, the first being that you do not have a problem with gay christians, but then you seem to assert that 'these institutions' should be able to debate whether of not gay people are christians. I have to say that you have left me with the impression that you have a problem with the whole idea of gay christians.

Gay people are not an 'issue'. The very word shows me that you haven't yet comprehended who you are talking to yet. And that is very unfortunate. Gay people are a reality. Perhaps a inconvenient reality to those who would rather not listen to their concerns, but a reality nevertheless.

I hope you will give the material on this site some attention.

[P-Kay]

Hello Zerbie - I'm sorry to have offended you. Please forgive me. I was just asking questions.

You write: "Another thing, PK is this: gay & lesbian people have all heard the belief that there IS something wrong with them. That they are sinful. Immoral. Even disgusting and abominable. In fact, odds are good that EVERYONE has heard this at some time about gay people. It has been taught, dispersed, disseminated, and shouted from the rooftops for centuries. What one all too often does NOT hear is the statement that there is NOTHING wrong with a gay person for being gay."

I never said any of those things - please don't put words in my mouth. I'm sure have heard those things, but I didn't bring them to the table.

THen you write: "And anyway - why is it that gay persons should be open to considering their nature to be a pathology? Should straight persons stop and consider whether their innermost being and all their feelings of love and affection might be a pathology?"

Again, I never said anything about gay persons and their pathology. I'm not sure where this came from - but it wasn't from me.

Next you write: "Here's an answer to your question. Why is the debate over? It's over because the question is the problem. Raising a question about the acceptability of innocent human beings *being* is the source of the entire problem."

I didn't raise a question about that. My question had to do with why Soulforce believes "Christian Institutions" should have to answer their questions, but then they don't allow questions to be asked in return. Keltic63 made some very matter of fact statements about his beliefs. That's fine. These institutions also make matter of fact statements - that's fine too. But SoulForce believe the institutions should have to defend their statements while Soulforce and its members can just say - that's not up for debate. That's not dialogue, that's monologue.

Finally, you asked: "Do you know many gay people, personally, as in, face to face? Just curious."

The answer is yes. My town only has 2500 people living in it and the nearest town outside of that is over 50 miles away - this is ranch country. So there isn't a large gay community here. However:

John is a high school student and comes to my church (A church of about 70 people). He's on our worship team. He has had a gay orientation for several years and has had gay sexual experiences, although few. He asks questions. I teach him, as well as anyone else, not to find their answers in me, but the Bible. I consider him a friend - He considers me a friend. He spends time in my house and with my children on a semi-regular basis.

Another person, also named John, used to come to my church, but moved away. He visited me two weeks ago. He helped us do our landscaping at our church - beautiful work I might add. He's 43. He has lived a very promiscuous (hundreds of partners) homosexual lifestyle for many years. He has had full blown AIDS since the early 90's, yet still healthy. I pray for him every time he goes in for blood tests. Although still having a homosexual "orientation", he has repented of homosexual "activity". i didn't tell him to do that, he came to that decision on his own, reading his Bible. He still has questions about why he is the way he is. He's asked God to change him many, many times. He is my friend. I care for him dearly.

Ruby and Bernadette are a lesbian couple. Ruby has a son from a previous marriage, and Bernadette has a son and a daughter. My wife and I have watched their kids for them on many occasions. We've fed them when their moms were too strung out to take care of them. Their relationship is a disaster to them both. They've split up and beat each other up at least a dozen times. When they separate they both get clean of drugs, but everytime they get back together they go back to drugs and violence. There are many causes for that, probably including the ones you're thinking about right now...society and how it treats them.

My wife's cousin died of AIDS a few years ago. His name was Chuckie. We were both saddened by that.

Another friend by the name of Roger. He was an inmate in the local state prison. I met with him many times while he was incarcerated. He has now been released and was helping another friend move, so he stopped by to visit me about 4 weeks ago.

I hope that answers your question sufficiently Zerbie. I wouldn't want to be accused of avoiding questions. I wish you all the best.

PK

[P-Kay]

Hello Zerbie - I'm sorry to have offended you. Please forgive me. I was just asking questions.

You write: "Another thing, PK is this: gay & lesbian people have all heard the belief that there IS something wrong with them. That they are sinful. Immoral. Even disgusting and abominable. In fact, odds are good that EVERYONE has heard this at some time about gay people. It has been taught, dispersed, disseminated, and shouted from the rooftops for centuries. What one all too often does NOT hear is the statement that there is NOTHING wrong with a gay person for being gay."

I never said any of those things - please don't put words in my mouth. I'm sure have heard those things, but I didn't bring them to the table.

THen you write: "And anyway - why is it that gay persons should be open to considering their nature to be a pathology? Should straight persons stop and consider whether their innermost being and all their feelings of love and affection might be a pathology?"

Again, I never said anything about gay persons and their pathology. I'm not sure where this came from - but it wasn't from me.

Next you write: "Here's an answer to your question. Why is the debate over? It's over because the question is the problem. Raising a question about the acceptability of innocent human beings *being* is the source of the entire problem."

I didn't raise a question about that. My question had to do with why Soulforce believes "Christian Institutions" should have to answer their questions, but then they don't allow questions to be asked in return. Keltic63 made some very matter of fact statements about his beliefs. That's fine. These institutions also make matter of fact statements - that's fine too. But SoulForce believe the institutions should have to defend their statements while Soulforce and its members can just say - that's not up for debate. That's not dialogue, that's monologue.

Finally, you asked: "Do you know many gay people, personally, as in, face to face? Just curious."

The answer is yes. My town only has 2500 people living in it and the nearest town outside of that is over 50 miles away - this is ranch country. So there isn't a large gay community here. However:

John is a high school student and comes to my church (A church of about 70 people). He's on our worship team. He has had a gay orientation for several years and has had gay sexual experiences, although few. He asks questions. I teach him, as well as anyone else, not to find their answers in me, but the Bible. I consider him a friend - He considers me a friend. He spends time in my house and with my children on a semi-regular basis.

Another person, also named John, used to come to my church, but moved away. He visited me two weeks ago. He helped us do our landscaping at our church - beautiful work I might add. He's 43. He has lived a very promiscuous (hundreds of partners) homosexual lifestyle for many years. He has had full blown AIDS since the early 90's, yet still healthy. I pray for him every time he goes in for blood tests. Although still having a homosexual "orientation", he has repented of homosexual "activity". i didn't tell him to do that, he came to that decision on his own, reading his Bible. He still has questions about why he is the way he is. He's asked God to change him many, many times. He is my friend. I care for him dearly.

Ruby and Bernadette are a lesbian couple. Ruby has a son from a previous marriage, and Bernadette has a son and a daughter. My wife and I have watched their kids for them on many occasions. We've fed them when their moms were too strung out to take care of them. Their relationship is a disaster to them both. They've split up and beat each other up at least a dozen times. When they separate they both get clean of drugs, but everytime they get back together they go back to drugs and violence. There are many causes for that, probably including the ones you're thinking about right now...society and how it treats them.

My wife's cousin died of AIDS a few years ago. His name was Chuckie. We were both saddened by that.

Another friend by the name of Roger. He was an inmate in the local state prison. I met with him many times while he was incarcerated. He has now been released and was helping another friend move, so he stopped by to visit me about 4 weeks ago.

I hope that answers your question sufficiently Zerbie. I wouldn't want to be accused of avoiding questions. I wish you all the best.

PK

[P-Kay]

Keltic 63 - What do you mean my unwillingness? How do you figure? You're the one that closed the debate. I don't see the value if you can ask all the questions you want, but I can't. That's not honest or open. It becomes fruitless after a while.

[keltic63]

did you read any of the other posts here, kevin? the problem isn't simply a matter of belief. the teachings and policies, dogma and doctrines of these schools and denominations do harm to God's children, in particular, the gay and lesbian ones. Do you see how being called an abomination on a regular basis might do some emotional damage to a person? Do you see how teaching that the AIDS crisis was God's just vengeance on gays might cause a young person to turn away from the God who created him or her?

Whom did Jesus turn away? Whom does the church turn away now? expelling lgbt kids, denying gays and lesbians membership, turning them away at the door, is this the church that Jesus founded?

I'm disturbed by your willingness to walk away from this conversation. Is it too difficult for you? Did you expect no confrontation? we can discuss many things, but we will not discuss the rightness or wrongness of our orientation, it just is as it is, nor will we justify ourselves as gay christians. we are here. we are in your churches. we always have been. but when some churches, some ministers, some christians discover that in addition all of the things we do in the house of the Lord, that we are gay or lesbian, or bisexual, or transgendered, we are judged severely on that one point, and most often escorted to the door.

Keltic 63 - What do you mean my unwillingness? How do you figure? You're the one that closed the debate. I don't see the value if you can ask all the questions you want, but I can't. That's not honest or open. It becomes fruitless after a while.

an earlier post by you lead me to believe you were done with this conversation.

as you can see, from my post that I've quoted above, I'm more than willing to discuss soulforce's actions. Could you please respond to the issues brought up here? the only debate that I've closed is the one in which you get to decide whether I am a christian or not.

I'm sorry that so many of your gay and lesbian friends have the trouble that they do. do you view that trouble as being a function of their orientation? don't straight people have those same kinds of problems? is it fair to associate those problems with being gay or lesbian?

and as a sidenote, "homosexual lifestyle" is considered offensive around here. when you start talking about the heterosexual lifestyle as being promiscuous, which one could assume by observing what goes on at a straight bar at closing time, then we'll allow "homosexual lifestyle."

[P-Kay]

Daniel,

You write: "I hope you will give the material on this site some attention." I'm at least here. Some may think I'm close-minded. Perhaps everyone is to some degree. But I never cut anyone one off are said that certain things are not up for debate.

Throughout the posts I see inconsistencies. First "we want to have to debate" but then "we don't want to have debate." First "these institutions need to rethink their beliefs" but later, "it's not about beliefs."

Let me state this very clearly. I do believe the Bible is the word of God. I also know that it has been very accurately translated down through the years (in a grammatical and historical sense). There are clear statements in the Bible that God does not sanction homosexual "activity". Your posts are accurate which declare the Bible silent on homosexual "orientation".

Let me state this very clearly as well. I would never condone or support any actions of violence toward someone because of any sin. And I don't somehow label this particular activity to be any worse than if I tell a lie or cheat on a test.

Thirdly - I need forgiveness and cleansing every day, so I'm not trying to speak as someone who is better than anyone. I know I'm not.

I just believe (perhaps naively so) that it is possible to exchange ideas, although they may differ, without hating each other or maligning each other. Sharing ideas doesn't hurt anyone. Perhaps we can grow to understand and appreciate each other. Just as there are many people who in Biblical terms are in sins of other types. I get along fine with them and they with me. Why can't someone believe different from you and still be your friend?

[P-Kay]

Keltic63 - I will continue the discussion. I have to take a break for a while. I have a class to prepare a lesson plan for. I'll return and take up this conversation again. And address some of the issues.

I'm glad you exist. I'm privileged to converse with you. I enjoy it greatly. Be back tomorrow.

Best Regards,

PK

[Daniel]

Next you write: "Here's an answer to your question. Why is the debate over? It's over because the question is the problem. Raising a question about the acceptability of innocent human beings *being* is the source of the entire problem."

I didn't raise a question about that. My question had to do with why Soulforce believes "Christian Institutions" should have to answer their questions, but then they don't allow questions to be asked in return. Keltic63 made some very matter of fact statements about his beliefs. That's fine. These institutions also make matter of fact statements - that's fine too. But SoulForce believe the institutions should have to defend their statements while Soulforce and its members can just say - that's not up for debate. That's not dialogue, that's monologue.


Dear PK- From the people that you know you are gay, they seem to have their share of tribulations. I certainly hope you can distinguish between the suffering that is caused by homophobia as well as internalized homophobia in these matters.

I know a lot of gay people too. And a good many of them are having very productive lives, are persons of faith, are not infected with AIDS, and are not being taught that God condemns them through word or example. Having gone to Evangel College, an Assembly of God school, I am familiar with what those in the denomination believes. Those beliefs resulted in the expulsion of 4 of my classmates, for no other reason than they were gay. One later took his life because of those beliefs.

Soulforce goes to institutions, not to make them defend their belliefs, but to seek dialogue regarding the real oppression that occurs at the hands of those who, thought they may be well-meaning and sincere, are unaware of the suffering that is being caused to gay students and gay people everywhere.

[davidb]

There are clear statements in the Bible that God does not sanction homosexual "activity". Your posts are accurate which declare the Bible silent on homosexual "orientation".

The issues on what the Bible says and does not say about homosexual activity have to be reviewed within the cultural and sociological framework with which they were written. It's not be as clear and cut-and-dry as you may think. Remember that scripture also forbids many dietary practices that Christians no longer hold to (shellfish, anyone?), and gives explicit instructions on the handling of slaves. Please give the following two pieces a serious, prayerful review, just as an introduction:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible

_________________________________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.

--Emerson

[P-Kay]

Daniel - As I just wrote to Keltic63, I need to get some lesson plans ready for a class. Thanks for good dialogue. I will return tomorrow and continue this discussion, if you'r like.

Best Regards,

Kevin

[P-Kay]

I have to go, but let me make a very quick reply.

It was Jesus himself who declared all foods clean in Matthew 7:19 under the New Covenant.

Slavery was not sanctioned by God, but in the context of a society that had slavery, God called for good treatment of slaves. God never endorsed the kind of slavery practiced in the early days of the United States, which to the detriment of Christianity, were perpetrated by those claiming to be "Christians." A very sad truth of which I am ambarrassed.

As to the need for looking at the social and cultural context within which these scripture were written - I agree. But its not just one social context. Old Testament passages were written for Jews under the law of Moses about 2500 BCE. But New Testament passages were written to Romans, Galatians, Corinthians, as well a Jewish cultures between 50-70AD. Each of these cities had diverse cultures, yet the statements are the same. Add to that the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorah - a pagan culture some 4000BCE. It seems God speaks the same language across many cultures on this topic.

I don't have time to dealve into detail right now, and I'll take a look at your posts.

Thanks

PK

[keltic63]

I have to go, but let me make a very quick reply.

It was Jesus himself who declared all foods clean in Matthew 7:19 under the New Covenant.

I'm not sure I follow you on this particular scripture. Doesn't this story refer to false prophets and identifying the spirit of God in others by witnessing the fruits of their work?

Perhaps you are thinking of Acts 10, where God gives Peter a vision of the things that are clean and unclean. While the literal lesson appears to be about food, it is clear that God wants Peter to spend time with an "unclean" PERSON, a gentile. God claims all people as his own by declaring "What God has made clean, do not call common."

Slavery was not sanctioned by God, but in the context of a society that had slavery, God called for good treatment of slaves. God never endorsed the kind of slavery practiced in the early days of the United States, which to the detriment of Christianity, were perpetrated by those claiming to be "Christians." A very sad truth of which I am ambarrassed.

As to the need for looking at the social and cultural context within which these scripture were written - I agree. But its not just one social context. Old Testament passages were written for Jews under the law of Moses about 2500 BCE. But New Testament passages were written to Romans, Galatians, Corinthians, as well a Jewish cultures between 50-70AD. Each of these cities had diverse cultures, yet the statements are the same. Add to that the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorah - a pagan culture some 4000BCE. It seems God speaks the same language across many cultures on this topic.

I don't have time to dealve into detail right now, and I'll take a look at your posts.

Thanks

PK

I'm sure you are aware of the 20 passages in the scriptures that refer to the Sodom and Gomorrah story, and that not one of them, including the Jude reference, mentions same-sex activity.

[antonyh]

John is a high school student and comes to my church (A church of about 70 people). He's on our worship team. He has had a gay orientation for several years and has had gay sexual experiences, although few. He asks questions. I teach him, as well as anyone else, not to find their answers in me, but the Bible. I consider him a friend - He considers me a friend. He spends time in my house and with my children on a semi-regular basis.


If John found love and decided to partner up with another man, could he still be an active part of your congregation and participate with his lover on your worship team?


Another person, also named John, used to come to my church, but moved away. He visited me two weeks ago. He helped us do our landscaping at our church - beautiful work I might add. He's 43. He has lived a very promiscuous (hundreds of partners) homosexual lifestyle for many years. He has had full blown AIDS since the early 90's, yet still healthy. I pray for him every time he goes in for blood tests. Although still having a homosexual "orientation", he has repented of homosexual "activity". i didn't tell him to do that, he came to that decision on his own, reading his Bible. He still has questions about why he is the way he is. He's asked God to change him many, many times. He is my friend. I care for him dearly.


When you can't accept your sexual orientation as a gay man because of what you've been taught, it is hard to aspire to forming a partnership. Because we are sexual beings in need of intimacy, this pushes some gay men into promiscuous living and puts them at risk for HIV infection. I'll never forget the director of Saint Louis Effort for AIDS saying, "We will never stop AIDS until we find a cure for homophobia." That is the bottom line.

Human beings are psychosomatic beings. Our being and body are intimately interconnected. You mentioned that John has a homosexual orientation but has repented of his homosexual activity (ps I noticed the quote marks around orientation). By calling him to this kind of repentance, you have taken a knife and cut his being apart from his body. This is the cruelty that the Evangelical church offers LGBT people and the results are devastating in people's lives.


Ruby and Bernadette are a lesbian couple. Ruby has a son from a previous marriage, and Bernadette has a son and a daughter. My wife and I have watched their kids for them on many occasions. We've fed them when their moms were too strung out to take care of them. Their relationship is a disaster to them both. They've split up and beat each other up at least a dozen times. When they separate they both get clean of drugs, but everytime they get back together they go back to drugs and violence. There are many causes for that, probably including the ones you're thinking about right now...society and how it treats them.


I know many healthy, loving well adjusted gay and lesbian couples.

[andrewlittle]

Having lived in very small rural communities, as well as large cities, I have noticed a few patterns. These are generalities and may not be universally true, but they also point up the problem with generalizing in general.

The few gay people I have met in rural Iowa have tended to stay in their home territories for reasons that seem strange to me. For most I would say that the fear of the unknown has been stronger than the fear of the known. They are insecure and timid, and as unadventurous as many of their straight neighbors. They live lifestyles, however, that result from trying to keep very low profiles, which then involves some quite harmful behaviors - like anonymous promiscuity. They are not allowed to be open and seek a partner, for fear of being ostracized or even physically threatened.

I have also seen other things. A straight man with AIDS who, after running out of financial resources to seek medical services and medicines out of town (no-one locally, except his pastor and her husband, knows of his condition). Despite our pleadings, he prefers to die of his "cancer" - that's his story to the town - rather than admit that he has AIDS. The problem is that he got aids from a transfusion - not from sexual activity. He is afraid of being labelled as "gay", so he'll die rather than run the risk of being stigmatized.

AIDS is not a same-sex disease - it is quite inclusive in it's destruction of lives.

I have also known many drug addicts - myself being one in years past - and I can tell you that the problem with the lesbian couple you mentioned is related to drug abuse not sexuality. That pattern is repeated widely among people of all sexualities, classes and races. It is a drug problem - not a GLBT problem.

By taking particulars, and using them to justify errant generalities, you are simply validating your own bias.

The language you have used in so much of your posts - while being used with the intention of being nice and respectful - shows the level of separation and misunderstanding that exists for our GLBT sisters and brothers. It shows the underlying assumptions that accompany your beliefs, and it is not transparent to the others at this forum. That language use and phrasing may not be intended to exhibit judgment and bias - but it does anyway.

Do yourself, and everyone else, a favor. If you seek to understand more fully, try to get your mindset out of the insulated, preconceived notions you have, and be willing to listen more than you talk.

I can tell you from experience - as a former vitriolic, religious, self-righteous homophobe - that understanding won't come from pontificatng and talking, but with listening carefully to those with whom you seek to dialogue.

[Daniel]

By taking particulars, and using them to justify errant generalities, you are simply validating your own bias.

The language you have used in so much of your posts - while being used with the intention of being nice and respectful - shows the level of separation and misunderstanding that exists for our GLBT sisters and brothers. It shows the underlying assumptions that accompany your beliefs, and it is not transparent to the others at this forum. That language use and phrasing may not be intended to exhibit judgment and bias - but it does anyway.

Andy- thank you for your astute and clear-headed words.

[Current_forever]

While I agree that both sides have been at fault at times in this debate, you have to understand PKay that while you may come at this debate with a fresh spirit, nothing you've said or asked here has been new to us. We as gay Christians, live with this debate every day of our lives. We have been shoved in the box of organized religion more times than we can count. My problem with some of your philosophies is this: You seek to Define God and God's will and God's beliefs, and that is impossible. By seeking to define God, you are trying to put God in the same box that you try to put everyone else in. And God is bigger than that box. As cliche as it sounds, why don't you step out of your comfort zone and imagine a world in reverse. Put yourself in the minority, oppressed by a government that is supposedly apart from religious beliefs, oppressed by your family, your friends, your church. Why? Just because of who God made you to be. Have you ever seen yourself from the opposite point of view?

[Zerbie]

Hi PK,

Thank you for responding to my posts. I plan to get back to you later with a thoughtful reply, but I'm not sure when that will be as I have to get serious about writing a term-paper this week (and I just used an hour composing a reply to Simpleman on another thread somewhere.)

One thing now: Where did I say you had offended me?

Well, okay, and a second thing: You said you don't want to be "accused" of avoiding questions. Why are you thinking of being accused? Why was that posted to me? Do you find my posts to be an accusation? They are not so intended, therefore I need to know if you find my words accusatory and hopefully also to know *why* you find them so.

Well and a third thing (and now I'm really making myself late!): you will run into inconsistencies on this board because we are not all marching in a unified lock-step of complete and utter agreement on all things. We are a community of individuals - a few of whom actually represent Soulforce as an organization through public action, but most of whom, like me, just like hanging out here for the conversation. So we're a collection of discrete individuals, and each of us is going to have different thoughts, beliefs, interpretations, etc etc etc.

Have a good week - and I hope you'll be back. I will.

[P-Kay]

Antonyh,

In mentioning those I know who are gay, I was just answering your question. The assumption seemed to be that I didn't, so I went into a little detail about each one and how I know them so that you wouldn't think I just made it up or something. Regardless, I think you agree that it would be rather arrogant of me to think I know what makes gay people tick without interacting with them and getting to know them, right? Well, you have never met any of the people I told you about, yet you presume to know why they're going through what their going through.

In regard to the second John who is gay in orientation, but celebate do to his committment to God, you wrote: "By calling him to this kind of repentance, you have taken a knife and cut his being apart from his body." But I didn't call him to that or tell him he had to do that...and if you look back you will see that I specifically stated that.

I find it irrelevant for us to try to figure out their situations and what the root cause is or the best course of action. I was just answering your question about whether or not I personally knew any gay people...face to face.

[P-Kay]

Hey Zerbie,

How are you today? I hope well. I will keep checking back for that thoughtful response.

As for why I felt you were offended. I looked back at your post and can't find a reason for why I thought that. My apologies, I must have misinterpreted something at the time. And I don't see anything in your posts that seem accusatory. Perhaps I was responding to you, but thinking about someone else's post. (I'm new to this blogging thing. And carrying on several conversations at one time is not my forte'. I guess it's my male inability to multi-task or something.)

Point well taken in regard to inconsistencies due to many people marching to different drums - Thanks.

Anyway - hope you have a great day.

PK

[u-dog]

Listen and ask questions of these folks. Ask them about their lives, about their attractions, about their loves. About their journeys of self discovery and self acceptance and about HOW THEY CAME TO KNOW THAT GOD LOVED THEM GAY.

I don't say this to be mean or uncaring or to shut you up or to close down dialogue. I say this because it is the only way for you as a straight guy to learn about how the world (society, love, sex, the bible, the church, the gospel, Jesus, God) look to the people who are NOT YOU.

In regard to the gay people in your life... you are obviously a caring and compassionate man who desperately wants to bring light and life into the lives of suffering people you know. But do you REALLY know these people? Have you inquired OPEN MINDEDLY into their lives and experience in a way that allows them to share who they are with you?


In regard to the second John who is gay in orientation, but celebate do to his committment to God, you wrote: "By calling him to this kind of repentance, you have taken a knife and cut his being apart from his body." But I didn't call him to that or tell him he had to do that...and if you look back you will see that I specifically stated that.

This John lives in a small town in Ranch country. Can I assume that he has not experienced LOTS AND LOTS of caring and acceptance? You have shown him that and he, I am sure, appreciates that. but you can't possibly believe that he doesn't ALREADY KNOW that you don't approve of either his gay orientation or his gay activities. OF COURSE YOU HAVE CALLED HIM to his repentance! You may not have used words, but you have called him. He (as all people) longs to be accepted and loved and honored and valued. You have offered him that but with an UNSPOKEN caveat that he "repent" of his homosexuality. He is trying to comply.

What you need to understand is that his compliance will cost him dearly in ways that as a straight man you CANNOT begin to imagine. Read Antonyh's post again about "Slicing apart" body and spirit. the "Slicing apart" image is NOT too strong.

PK ... you have to listen. Many of us here are Christian and Gay. We read the Bible and seek guidance from it for how we should live. The assumptions we bring to that reading affects the guidance we receive from it. If my beginning assumption is that "gay is bad" then a cursory reading of a few scattered verses in scripture will confirm my belief and breathing a sigh of relief at not being challanged, I can walk away, especially when that "guidance" doesn't require anything of me.

If I come to scripture with the understanding that gay is something that I am (an understanding born of decades of experience perhaps?) I read the few scattered verses and they don't line up with my experience and I wonder why.

Your advice to me would seem to be... "too bad, suck it up and deal with it, what you are is an abomination in the sight of the LORD"

What we have done is to look deeper into those few scattered verses to see what they are really saying and what they really mean for gay people in the 21 st century. we have come to understand that they are not talking about us or our loves or our relationships.

Aren't you the least bit curious how we came to that conclusion? P-KAY!! PLEASE BE CURIOUS!! WE WANT YOU TO BE CURIOUS!! WE WANT YOU TO ASK US!

but we don't want you to tell us. we've already been "TOLD" a gazillion times. We get it! we are speeding down the road and the bridge is out!!! Great. You've done your duty. You've warned us. Now listen to why it is that we believe that the bridge is still there.

Dave

[antonyh]

In regard to the second John who is gay in orientation, but celebate do to his committment to God, you wrote: "By calling him to this kind of repentance, you have taken a knife and cut his being apart from his body." But I didn't call him to that or tell him he had to do that...and if you look back you will see that I specifically stated that.


So if the two Johns in your church found lovers, would you allow them to be Assemblies of God members? Would you marry them? Would you allow them to lead the worship team and take holy communion? Could they co-pastor the church with you? You are dodging my first question because you only accept repentant, celibate homosexuals in your church. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What I am pointing out here is that LGBTQ people are whole people, psychosomatic beings. It is cruel to drive a wedge between someone's being (sexual orientation) and body (acting on the sexual orientation). Love requires that you allow people to act as whole people.

If a gay person wants to be celibate, I am fine with that. But the Evangelical church does not even allow a choice. It is repentance and celibacy or nothing. That is cruel and wrong.

[u-dog]

What I am pointing out here is that LGBTQ people are whole people, psychosomatic beings. It is cruel to drive a wedge between someone's being (sexual orientation) and body (acting on the sexual orientation). Love requires that you allow people to act as whole people.

You're pretty smart for a cute, skinny young guy! ;)

[antonyh]

You're pretty smart for a cute, skinny young guy! ;)

Now you're talking LOL :)

[P-Kay]

Daniel, you quoted Andy saying, "The language you have used in so much of your posts - while being used with the intention of being nice and respectful - shows the level of separation and misunderstanding that exists for our GLBT sisters and brothers. It shows the underlying assumptions that accompany your beliefs, and it is not transparent to the others at this forum. That language use and phrasing may not be intended to exhibit judgment and bias - but it does anyway."

I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Soulforce came to a school I attend (online). I didn't even know Soulforce existed until now. If I were on campus I would have gone this weekend to meet with Soulforce reps at the Fireside Cafe'.

I'm sorry you've answered these question and points a gazillion times. But there's no way I can come to the table without asking. Because I haven't heard your answers. In Soulforce coming to Trinity it was announced that they desired dialogue, but since most of them (and I) have not been part of the dialogue all along we don't know the answers to the questions, and don't realize how many gazillion times you've answered them. So the dialogue always has to start somewhere, and naturally we rehash old things to you.

Rather than doing that any longer. I will posit many of the thoughts you have all shared. I'll try to do it honestly and openly. I'll read and ponder. I'll consider. But I'll converse only with those I know. I'll ask the questions some of you have suggested I ask. Perhaps they will not have already been through is so many times, and perhaps they will not be so tired of answering questions that perhaps I should know the answers to.

I wish all of you the best. I harbor no hurts toward you. Please forgive me for being judgmental even though it wasn't my intention. I'll leave you alone.

All the best,

PK

[u-dog]

There is no point in talking. You already know what God thinks. You already know what God says. You already know who God is and have smashed him into a little box. There is no part of you that is ready to consider the possibility that you might be wrong, that you might have come to scripture with your mind made up, that you might be putting words into God's mouth. There is no curiousity in you to ask ... "How might thinking, faithful Christian people have missed this? By what route or method did they come to this conclusion that is different from my own."

Consequently, there is no dialogue. We are willing to share with you how it is that we have come to believe that God loves us and accepts us the way we are... but you haven't asked. We are even willing to listen to your objections to our conclusions but we can't do that until you have been curious about it. You aren't curious because you assume you already know why we believe as we do.

In short, You've preached at us. Pastor? we've heard it before -- endlessly-- over and over again. We are not convinced and ... we are not interested in being beat about the head with the Bible anymore.

God's blessings on you.

[kara speltz]

Daniel, you quoted Andy saying, "The language you have used in so much of your posts - while being used with the intention of being nice and respectful - shows the level of separation and misunderstanding that exists for our GLBT sisters and brothers. It shows the underlying assumptions that accompany your beliefs, and it is not transparent to the others at this forum. That language use and phrasing may not be intended to exhibit judgment and bias - but it does anyway."

I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Soulforce came to a school I attend (online). I didn't even know Soulforce existed until now. If I were on campus I would have gone this weekend to meet with Soulforce reps at the Fireside Cafe'.

I'm sorry you've answered these question and points a gazillion times. But there's no way I can come to the table without asking. Because I haven't heard your answers. In Soulforce coming to Trinity it was announced that they desired dialogue, but since most of them (and I) have not been part of the dialogue all along we don't know the answers to the questions, and don't realize how many gazillion times you've answered them. So the dialogue always has to start somewhere, and naturally we rehash old things to you.

Rather than doing that any longer. I will posit many of the thoughts you have all shared. I'll try to do it honestly and openly. I'll read and ponder. I'll consider. But I'll converse only with those I know. I'll ask the questions some of you have suggested I ask. Perhaps they will not have already been through is so many times, and perhaps they will not be so tired of answering questions that perhaps I should know the answers to.

I wish all of you the best. I harbor no hurts toward you. Please forgive me for being judgmental even though it wasn't my intention. I'll leave you alone.

All the best,

PK

PK you've raised some very legitimate points. Bear with us. Some times we get impatient answering the same questions, over and over and over again. I hope you'll start by reading Mel's very excellent pamphlet, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality." It will give you a starting place to comprehend where many of us are coming from.

Not all of us are Christian, though probably the majority are. But that is an important thing for you to know about us.

I was privileged to be on part of the Equality Ride last year as it traveled through Texas. I came away from our visit to Abilene Christian University in awe. Real dialogue took place there. My definition of real dialogue is when two people really sit down and listen to each other, laying aside all the barriers and being willing to hear each other's truth. I spent an hour with an exgay teacher and it was very educational for me. I believe I helped her understand that while she believed being gay separated her from God, in my life my being a lesbian is what makes me so dependent on God. The oppression I experience would be intolerable without a personal relationship with God. So I need no healing from being a lesbian. I think she got that and I got that for her this was a healing moment.

I suspect where people grow edgy with those who believe differently than we, lies mostly in the fact that I often find that people don't want to do their homework. They want us to make it easy for them to comprehend what our lives are about. In the early days of the civil rights movement, many of us white folks were uncomfortable with black people who hadn't "assimilated." Their lives felt so different from ours (or at least we perceived them as different). But many white folks who were committed to civil rights understood that it wasn't the job of black people to teach us about racism. It was our job to learn.

So, if we get impatient, I hope you'll understand that aspect. I really appreciate that you've come to this forum because Soulforce attended your school. That's exactly what we're hoping for. That the effect of the Riders will be that they no longer become this "they" but instead become part of the greater "we" that makes us all part of God's family.

Kara

[keltic63]

Moderator Note:
A post with clearly stated anti-gay sentiments has been removed. Please review the Forum Guidelines (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/faq.php?faq=soulforce_faq_item#faq_soulforce_faq_i tem1) and keep in mind that the following is not tolerated in order that we may keep this a safe place for lgbt people:


Inappropriate Content

The following content is not allowed on the Soulforce Forums:
Links to sites containing adult images
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Anti-Gay comments
We welcome people who are on the journey to understanding and accepting gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. However obvious anti-gay comments will not be allowed in the public forums. Such comments are not merely opinions, but rather a way to demean and oppress GLBT people. Any posts deemed by the Soulforce staff to be anti-gay will be removed. First time offenders will always receive a warning via private message. Repeat offenders will lose both their right to post messages on any of the Soulforce Public Forums and also their right to send private messages to other members.
Materials promoting "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy"
Some homosexual persons claim to have experienced a change in their sexual orientation. Their stories are their stories and we should not try to change them if they are sincerely happy. With that said, however, the vast majority of these brothers and sisters entered "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" under the belief of a homosexual orientation being morally inferior and a heterosexual orientation being morally superior. Such a belief is a falsehood that is used by many to deny GLBT people equality in society and full membership in our churches. Thus the promotion of "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" is not permitted on the forums and will be handled as anti-gay comments.
Posts that are excessively hostile to Soulforce
We certainly make room for forum members to disagree with Soulforce and post constructive criticism. However we don’t permit excessive hostility towards the organization on our own website. Such posts will be removed and offenders will lose their privilege to post messages.

[Daniel]

Daniel, you quoted Andy saying, "The language you have used in so much of your posts - while being used with the intention of being nice and respectful - shows the level of separation and misunderstanding that exists for our GLBT sisters and brothers. It shows the underlying assumptions that accompany your beliefs, and it is not transparent to the others at this forum. That language use and phrasing may not be intended to exhibit judgment and bias - but it does anyway."

I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Soulforce came to a school I attend (online). I didn't even know Soulforce existed until now. If I were on campus I would have gone this weekend to meet with Soulforce reps at the Fireside Cafe'.

I'm sorry you've answered these question and points a gazillion times. But there's no way I can come to the table without asking. Because I haven't heard your answers. In Soulforce coming to Trinity it was announced that they desired dialogue, but since most of them (and I) have not been part of the dialogue all along we don't know the answers to the questions, and don't realize how many gazillion times you've answered them. So the dialogue always has to start somewhere, and naturally we rehash old things to you.

Rather than doing that any longer. I will posit many of the thoughts you have all shared. I'll try to do it honestly and openly. I'll read and ponder. I'll consider. But I'll converse only with those I know. I'll ask the questions some of you have suggested I ask. Perhaps they will not have already been through is so many times, and perhaps they will not be so tired of answering questions that perhaps I should know the answers to.

I wish all of you the best. I harbor no hurts toward you. Please forgive me for being judgmental even though it wasn't my intention. I'll leave you alone.

All the best,

PK


Hey Pk- Thanks for your post.

First things first. How about a crash course in learning how to quote another poster? This will help you a great deal, especially if you want to get fancy and use the multiquote tab. It also keep the eye, and the brain, from getting confused as to who is saying what.

See here for instructions: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325

I'm sorry you didn't get to speak to the Riders. That interaction would have conveyed a great deal, which cyberspace cannot, unfortunately, in the same way.

I'm not sure what you mean about only conversing with those who you 'know', and wonder if you actually meant to say, 'those I feel safe with or have some connection to'. For it's not clear to me that we really know each other- at least not yet. That takes time, energy and commitment, as in any relationship.

That said, I know it can be disconcerting to come to a board such as this where you may feel as though you have to defend yourself against many voices.

Don't forget that you can contact members via PM's if you have things you'd like to as that you don't want to discuss openly.

And I am glad to hear that you will avail yourself of the information on this site. Doing so may answer many of your questions.

To understand Soulforce and those who frequent this forum, you might also want to avail yourself of the principles of nonviolence which is discussed on this site in length, both in many threads and here:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/530

This is the heart of Soulforce, and is what brings many people together here. It is also why you have already been prodded (yes....gently prodded) to think about the effects of homophobia and the lives it has damaged and taken.

Lastly, your intention may not have been to be judgmental, but I hope you wil come to see that how we respond to each other- and to the subject at hand- deals with matters which eclipse intention, though intention is, of course, extremely important. Udog is right. Keeping your ears open to the experience of gay persons will be the mirror in which you will see how your intentions match up with the dictates of real compassion, which, I believe, demands more of us than tolerance or mere niceness.

Though you have not said so, I doubt very much that you can yet see the intrinsic worth of gay persons yet. Your mind is undoubtedly filled with thoughts that something is wrong with gay people, and that gay people need to be fixed in some way. Of course, you are not alone in thinking this. Many share this view, a good number of them in conservative religious environments. What this view does, however, is negate the true witness of gay people everywhere, who only wish to love and be loved, but are denied that, either by others or themselves, by the thought which, I must say frankly, you seems to hold very carefully out of view, that being that something is wrong with those like me and my husband of 14 years.

I hope you do not head for the hills when the going gets a little rough. And I also hope you will be more curious than defensive or merely polite. The latter, while it is nice, will only cover up the stuff that is really bugging you. Best to get it out in the open and in the light of day. That's what hard to do, but believe me, after coming out of the closet, dealing with with such things has proved to me that dealing with one's fears won't kill one. It's when they aren't deal with that trouble inevitably follows. ;)

Stick around PK and get to know us. You might suprise yourself. And us.

[antonyh]

Once we hear what God says - then we have do deal with it. Look at what this passage of God's Word says:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - "Don't you know that those who do wrong will have not share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, swindlers - none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. There was a time when some of you [B]were just like that[B] but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God have done for you."


The meaning of the text must seem so clear to you as someone who has never had to struggle as a LGBTQ person.

Since you brought up 1 Corinthians 6:9, I would like to have a Bible study with you. There are two Greek words involved arsenokoites and malakos. English translations of these words have included "homosexuals" (RSV, 1st ed), "sexual perverts" (RSV, 2nd ed), "guilty...of homosexual perversion" (NEB), "male prostitutes" and "sodomites" (NRSV), etc.

Do you think there may be some confusion about the underlying Greek words?

I would like to suggest that you purchase a book by Martti Nissinen, Homoeoticism in the Biblical World and read his analysis of these two words. He is Reader in Old Testament Studies at the University of Helsinki and Senior Researcher of the Finnish Academy.

After exhaustive analysis of these words, he concludes:

"The question of the exact meaning of the juxtaposition malakos and arsenokoites thus remains obscure. The evidence is too meager to allow for much more than an educated guess; this is especially the case regarding the world arsenokoites. Appearing one after the other, they can be interpreted in terms of a pederastic relationship but they need not be so interpreted. They do not form a fixed word-pair, because both words stand well also by themselves, yielding different interpretations. The modern concept of homosexuality should by no means be read into Paul's text, nor can we assume that Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 6:9 condemn all homosexual relations in all times and places and ways. The meanings of the words are too vague to justify this claim, and Paul's words should not be used for generalizations that go beyond his experience and world" (118).

Not so clear is it?

[tdogg]

P-Kay

It might really help to do some reading in order to gain an understanding of GLBT people, and also Biblical translations. I highly recommend the following (in order):
1. Read through the various threads/posts in these forums for first-hand, real experiences and people
2. Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality by Jack Rogers - an easy to read, well written smaller book that will provide insight on Biblical interpretation and GLBT people.
3. Straight Parents, Gay Children (I can't recall the author, my copy is loaned out) - an excellent and easy to read book including personal recounting of experiences with gay children coming out to straight parents, including Christian parents who may hold beliefs such as yours)
4. Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality by John Boswell - a huge and historical/fact-filled tome of unparelleled reference usefulness, there is an Appendix just on Biblical translations. I believe no serious Biblical scholar or reader should be without this wonderful book.

Then I would like to give you a very brief version of a real person's story on this particular thread (in case you haven't read any of the other threads already):

I was raised A of G from a very young age (9). My parents were 'converted' and we attended church several times a week. One of the most inhuman acts I've witnessed was at this church we grew up in and by the resident pastor who was highly regarded and beloved - he turned a woman away from the church, would not let her enter the sanctuary because she was in pants and it was his opinion that was disrespectful to God. Who knows whatever happened to her, but she did not find any love in that church. The most apalling thing was just about all of the congregation applauded this pastor. I was horrified (as a very young child), that moment will stay in my memory forever.

I was taught and preached to, that homosexualty was a grave sin, an abomination and a ticket straight to hell. I never believed it in my heart, but my head said that was not an option for me. So when I had attractions and feelings for women (I'm a woman) from a late teenager, I had to hide this. I felt the only way for me to prove I was worthy and saved was to find a man to live my life with, so I could forget about women. I hid this quite successfully for years and years, even enduring a marriage with a man I was with 17.5 years. I FINALLY arrived at a place in my life where I had really grown up as a person, mentally, emotionally and sexually. It took a lot to get there, and I only arrived by the grace of God.

So I finally decided to date a woman and see what I've been missing all these years and if God really would send a thunderbolt to strike me down. Well, I found Ms. Right, and I've been missing a LOT, and while there was a bit of a thunderbolt (ok more like a massive firework display) I haven't been struck down and don't expect to be. The thing that really struck me was that it didn't feel wrong, an abomination, a sin. Being with this person feels like the most right thing I've ever done, I felt like I finally came home, finally was where I belonged.

So, I went through being mad at those who taught me lies and deceived me in Jesus' name, I forgive those few who stand fast by their beliefs and continue to not want much to do with me. It's not easy for me or them, but I can only pray for them and be here when they are ready. I believe in a God who is loving and kind, compassionate, righteous and holy but whose love exceeds our ability to grasp totally. I do not believe in a God of fear, wrath, condemnation, anger, hate, intolerance. I think that is our main difference.

I am a lesbian, and I would say I am a Christian though not in the sense you may understand. I believe our mission is to demonstrate the love that Christ taught us, but very few have learned. It is a lifetime of learning that kind of love. You will find it here, but you do have to read the posts. My life is pretty simple and routine, probably not unlike yours or the next persons'. It is full of joy and pleasure, happiness and success, pain and hurt, sadness and money problems, and yes, even the illness, injury and death of those we love. These things aren't because I'm gay, but because I'm human and it happens to all of us.

Katrina didnt' happen because there are gay people in New Orleans, it happened because hurricanes happen in that area, sometimes bad ones, and the controls in place in the area weren't strong enough to keep the water at bay. Soldiers aren't dying in Iraq because there are gay people in American, but because this country's administration and leaders - and president - have authorized an unnecessary war and sent thousands of our people there to fight. 9-11 didn't happen because gays and lesbians are all over the US, it happened because a small group of terrorists were successful in circumventing airport security and boarded a plane, and were able to carry out their plans.

[andrewlittle]

Please understand, I am asking these questions with all respect and sincerity. I mean no disrespect. I thoroughly enjoy meaningful and productive dialogue and the exchange of ideas. I promise that in any conversation I will seek never to demean anyone. Thanks for any input and comments.
This is heartening. Because you began the conversations with this caveat, I believe that you want honest dialogue, unfettered by bias and judgment on either side. Kudos to you for even caring to engage in the discussion.

Also, because of what you wrote, I am assuming that your use of language in places may be out of unfamiliarity with the way certain phrases or words have been used to denigrate GLBT folk. This may, then, make the reaction to your words less than understandable to you, because you meant no offense by them. I am pointing out those phrases and words to help in the conversation, not to judge you by them or use them to hammer you, okay? I thought it might help.
I must go to God's Word, let it stand on its own, and let God's Word change me - not the other way around. In fact I'm pretty sure that one effective definition of a cult is an organization that forms its own beliefs and then searches for scripture to support it, rather than the other way around.
I think you are being quite honest and authentic here – and I agree 100%. Just be aware, however, that this line of thought is commonly used before stepping off into a rant about GLBT twisting scripture to suit their own purposes. I do not think that’s what you meant at all, but its history of use is why this phrasing automatically raises some hackles.

But that aside, how loving would I be if I truly believed you to be in danger and refused to warn you because I didn't want to hurt your feelings? If you're sleeping and a fire breaks out in your apartment, should I just go about my business and forget the danger you're in because you have a do not disturb sign on the door? That wouldn't be very loving, would it?
This, I’m sure, sounds very logical to you – and very loving – but it is also a very common tack taken by people who wish to attack rather than love. Being GLBT is not like being in a fire. It isn’t a horror – it isn’t a danger – it isn’t something that is going to consume someone’s life and put them at risk. It is also quite apparent why this is a common phrasing, since the apartment fire just happens to be close in concept to the “fires of hell” that some Christians want to pull GLBT from.
If they really believe and they stop speaking it they would become the most hate-filled people in the world, because they would see the world going to hell, and shrug it off saying, "To bad for you." That's not very loving. In fact that would be incredibly cold.
Oops, maybe I spoke too soon. There’s the reference to saving people from hell. I believe that was Jesus was about – salvation.
As I mentioned in another post - I don't go to God's Word to find ways to tell you how to live. I go to it so God can tell me how to live. God shows me all kinds of things I need to change. That doesn't mean God hates me. It just means He's the creator and He sets the standard and He's trying to help me meet the standard so that we can have fellowship. Does God love me? Absolutely. Is it because I'm holy or because I measure up. Absolutely Not! But God's love toward me and God's approval are two different things. God will certainly accept me the way I am - but if I have sin in my life he will never leave me that way. Why? It is because God loves me that He seeks to change me. How loving would God be to leave me in sin, when that sin will lead me to death? God, therefore, confronts my sin, so that I will deal with it, repent and change (by His power). Then I can be with Him. Then His love is realized.
Another familar tack, unfortunately. (BTW, God’s Word is Jesus, according to the Gospel of John. The Bible is God’s word.) The Bible tells “me how to live”, and not for me to tell you “how to live”, but let me just tell you in detail “how I should live” – you know, just in case you’re interested. And if you should see in that a message for how you should live, it won’t be my doing – I’m just telling you how I’m supposed to live.
I never said any of those things - please don't put words in my mouth. I'm sure have heard those things, but I didn't bring them to the table.
See above – you used the arguments from the classic “evangelizing GLBT” techniques – the same ones heard over and over before – along with the same, lame examples. Yes, you did, say the things that Zerbie reacted to, by your use of insinuation. You may think this is subtle, or even non-existent, but that would be at least a little disingenuous.
Let me state this very clearly. I do believe the Bible is the word of God. I also know that it has been very accurately translated down through the years (in a grammatical and historical sense). There are clear statements in the Bible that God does not sanction homosexual "activity". Your posts are accurate which declare the Bible silent on homosexual "orientation".
I will leave an extensive discussion for this for another thread. I will post a link in this one when I start it, unless you want to start it first. Suffice it to say that these are opinions and beliefs for which there is no true consensus in Christianity, and which can be discussed at great length.
Let me state this very clearly as well. I would never condone or support any actions of violence toward someone because of any sin. And I don't somehow label this particular activity to be any worse than if I tell a lie or cheat on a test.

Thirdly - I need forgiveness and cleansing every day, so I'm not trying to speak as someone who is better than anyone. I know I'm not.
Translation, being GLBT is a sin. We all sin – we sin by lying, by cheating, by being proud, by doing all kinds of things – but GLBT aren’t sinners because they’re GLBT. They sin just like you and me – by lying, cheating, etc. They cannot sin by living as God created them – I would go so far as to say that for me or you to label some part of God’s creation as inherently sinful (that creation that God said is “good”) is, in and of itself, sinful.

When you approach people with the “knowledge” that their existence is a sin, o matter how you try to disguise it, they are not going to be too receptive to the idea. Before you go there, being GLBT isn’t like being alcoholic, drug-addicted, in a burning building, drowning (oh, help me people, I’m forgetting many of the other common analogies). Anyway, being GLBT is not a choice, a lifestyle, a finger in the air to God or Christians – it is the essence of these children of God. God made them, and God does not make crap. Neither is God a trickster.

[antonyh]

Being with this person feels like the most right thing I've ever done, I felt like I finally came home, finally was where I belonged.

I am happy for you tdogg. I feel the same way with my partner. The climb to this understanding out of the swamps of misinformation you get from the church is truly remarkable. Many never make it as P-Kay's testimonies indicate. That is why Soulforce's work is so important.

[Daniel]

When you approach people with the “knowledge” that their existence is a sin, o matter how you try to disguise it, they are not going to be too receptive to the idea. Before you go there, being GLBT isn’t like being alcoholic, drug-addicted, in a burning building, drowning (oh, help me people, I’m forgetting many of the other common analogies). Anyway, being GLBT is not a choice, a lifestyle, a finger in the air to God or Christians – it is the essence of these children of God. God made them, and God does not make crap. Neither is God a trickster.

A hangover.
A perversion.
A phase.
A defiant child.
A sexual deviant.
A pedophile.
An aberration.
A ruse.
A way to get back at one's parents.
A sickness to be cured.
A result of demonic possession.
A fashion.
A thing you can get by being seduced.
A pychological defect.
A physical defect.
A result of original sin.
A way to keep from growing up.
A result of bad parenting.


And the list goes on and on....

[Daniel]

I am happy for you tdogg. I feel the same way with my partner. The climb to this understanding out of the swamps of misinformation you get from the church is truly remarkable. Many never make it as P-Kay's testimonies indicate. That is why Soulforce's work is so important.

Yes and more yes!

The climb out of the those swamps means one has to have one's hipboots on so one can get through all that...excuse me.....sh**! Yeah...I can look back and say that all that tribulation was important blah blah blah, but I hope and pray that others are able to skip that part and get to the good stuff.

And like you Anthony and Tdogg, owning up to being gay has led me to experience joy and...it's a big word....self-realization. And I feel so blessed to be with my beloved. Being with him has made up for a lot of pain and is teaching my what love is. I remember going to sleep night after night, after we first met, crying tears of joy. It hits you hard when you haven't had that, or don't allow yourself that experience it because of someone else's misguided notions.

[antonyh]

And like you Anthony and Tdogg, owning up to being gay has led me to experience joy and...it's a big word....self-realization. And I feel so blessed to be with my beloved. Being with him has made up for a lot of pain and is teaching my what love is. I remember going to sleep night after night, after we first met, crying tears of joy. It hits you hard when you haven't had that, or don't allow yourself that experience it because of someone else's misguided notions.

I'm happy for you too. I think our pain makes our arrival more precious and we never take it for granted.

[davidb]

And I'll also give thanks to my wonderful partner--we celebrated six wonderful years together this weekend.

It was worth all the pain and loneliness and isolation to finally experience the love that God intended for me to have. I am truly blessed to have such a warm, compassionate, and supportive soulmate.

Here's to all the loving diverse families in our community...

[Zerbie]

Tdogg :love: Daniel :love: Antony :love: David:love:

I love each of you. I am so happy for you that you have found your wonderful partners. We are immensely blessed. Hugs and kisses to each of you for the courage and beautiful willingness to share so openly your most precious success stories with PK. :love: :love: :love: :love:

[tdogg]

I love you all too! :love: :love: :love:

My friends, your presence here and words I take to my heart and they certainly make my life more joyful. Thank you! Those of us with special people to share our lives are blessed indeed. I'm not sure how I would be making it through these days, with everything going on with my dad, without my loving and wonderful life partner.

[Zerbie]

Hi PK.

I had a terrific day! :D I hope you enjoyed yours as well.

Hello Zerbie - I'm sorry to have offended you. Please forgive me. I was just asking questions.

You have not offended me. I will tell you if you do. ;)

You write: "Another thing, PK is this: gay & lesbian people have all heard the belief that there IS something wrong with them. That they are sinful. Immoral. Even disgusting and abominable. In fact, odds are good that EVERYONE has heard this at some time about gay people. It has been taught, dispersed, disseminated, and shouted from the rooftops for centuries. What one all too often does NOT hear is the statement that there is NOTHING wrong with a gay person for being gay."

I never said any of those things - please don't put words in my mouth. I'm sure have heard those things, but I didn't bring them to the table.

I noticed that you did not actually write those things. I did not put words in your mouth. I brought up an essentially related subject - one that can't be cut away from the present discussion.

That is the sort of stuff this forum exists to talk about, and those are the teachings the E Ride addresses. And we are talking about the E Ride, and issues that relate to it. By addressing the E Ride and its purposes, yes, actually, you do bring these matters to the table - they are the essentials behind the entire conversation. Best to speak about them clearly right up front.

THen you write: "And anyway - why is it that gay persons should be open to considering their nature to be a pathology? Should straight persons stop and consider whether their innermost being and all their feelings of love and affection might be a pathology?"

Again, I never said anything about gay persons and their pathology. I'm not sure where this came from - but it wasn't from me.

It's fundamental to any discussion about the purpose of the E Ride, and Soulforce itself. It's in the very air we're breathing just by having this conversation. That's "where" it came from.

Next you write: "Here's an answer to your question. Why is the debate over? It's over because the question is the problem. Raising a question about the acceptability of innocent human beings *being* is the source of the entire problem."

I didn't raise a question about that. My question had to do with why Soulforce believes "Christian Institutions" should have to answer their questions, but then they don't allow questions to be asked in return. Keltic63 made some very matter of fact statements about his beliefs. That's fine. These institutions also make matter of fact statements - that's fine too. But SoulForce believe the institutions should have to defend their statements while Soulforce and its members can just say - that's not up for debate. That's not dialogue, that's monologue.

Well I can't speak for Soulforce (I just like to hang out on the forum - I am not a staff member or anything), but I will tell you the way this matter strikes me. It strikes me as being about the fact that only ONE teaching about gays exists at these colleges, a teaching which, incidentally, leads to grievous harm for thousands upon thousands of human beings. Soulforce visits for (I believe) ONE day, to approach folks on these campuses with a new (and for gay individuals, possibly life-saving) way of understanding. The way I see it, it's visitors with a message that never otherwise sees the light of day, stopping by for only a day or two. That hardly constitutes a Soulforce monologue. The monologue is the constant single-pronged message dominating these campuses. Soulforce has what amounts to a one-liner.

Finally, you asked: "Do you know many gay people, personally, as in, face to face? Just curious."

The answer is yes. My town only has 2500 people living in it and the nearest town outside of that is over 50 miles away - this is ranch country. So there isn't a large gay community here. However:

John is a high school student and comes to my church (A church of about 70 people). He's on our worship team. He has had a gay orientation for several years and has had gay sexual experiences, although few. He asks questions. I teach him, as well as anyone else, not to find their answers in me, but the Bible. I consider him a friend - He considers me a friend. He spends time in my house and with my children on a semi-regular basis.

I'm glad to hear this. Sounds like a pretty good relationship. :)

Another person, also named John, used to come to my church, but moved away. He visited me two weeks ago. He helped us do our landscaping at our church - beautiful work I might add. He's 43. He has lived a very promiscuous (hundreds of partners) homosexual lifestyle for many years. He has had full blown AIDS since the early 90's, yet still healthy. I pray for him every time he goes in for blood tests. Although still having a homosexual "orientation", he has repented of homosexual "activity". i didn't tell him to do that, he came to that decision on his own, reading his Bible. He still has questions about why he is the way he is. He's asked God to change him many, many times. He is my friend. I care for him dearly.

This story breaks my heart. It sounds like this man had a rather imbalanced life, going from extremes of sexual excess, to a belief that any expression of his sexuality at all is wrong. He has questions about why he is the way he is?! :'( I have a friend with questions like those too. He has prayed for God to change him, too. It breaks my heart to witness his pain. I've held him, wishing I could do something to break the impasse. But it's his choice to either accept that he is gay, or if he cannot do that, to live alone in a celibacy which doesn't suit him. All I can do is tell him I love him. Over and over. :'( :love: :love: :love:

Ruby and Bernadette are a lesbian couple. Ruby has a son from a previous marriage, and Bernadette has a son and a daughter. My wife and I have watched their kids for them on many occasions. We've fed them when their moms were too strung out to take care of them. Their relationship is a disaster to them both. They've split up and beat each other up at least a dozen times. When they separate they both get clean of drugs, but everytime they get back together they go back to drugs and violence. There are many causes for that, probably including the ones you're thinking about right now...society and how it treats them.

PK, ya might not wanna try guessing my thoughts til you get to know me a little. ;) My first thought was, perhaps both women saw dysfunctional parenting from THEIR parents. Or merely the ordinary stresses of life + lousy communication/coping skills = a relationship nightmare. Hope things work out better soon.

My wife's cousin died of AIDS a few years ago. His name was Chuckie. We were both saddened by that.

I presume by your implication that her cousin was gay? I'm sorry for your family's recent loss.




I hope that answers your question sufficiently Zerbie. I wouldn't want to be accused of avoiding questions.
I wish you all the best.

PK

Why worry about being accused? We're all here to talk, so talk. You'll find most folks here to be gentle and patient. We will make the same request of you. That's all.

All the best to you, too. I hope you will stick around for a while. You sound like a caring friend. I hope you will learn and grow from your interaction with members of this forum. Goodness knows I have grown lightyears from knowing them. :love: :dove:

[antonyh]

And I'll also give thanks to my wonderful partner--we celebrated six wonderful years together this weekend.

It was worth all the pain and loneliness and isolation to finally experience the love that God intended for me to have. I am truly blessed to have such a warm, compassionate, and supportive soulmate.

Here's to all the loving diverse families in our community...

Congratulations on your anniversary. I am glad you have found your soulmate.

[andrewlittle]

This is as good a place as any to post an initial comment on your scriptural references.
Let me state this very clearly. I do believe the Bible is the word of God. I also know that it has been very accurately translated down through the years (in a grammatical and historical sense). There are clear statements in the Bible that God does not sanction homosexual "activity". Your posts are accurate which declare the Bible silent on homosexual "orientation".
Very accurately translated down through the years? Really?

Translation and interpretation go hand in hand – one cannot be done without the other. Beyond translating, there is also the process of interpretation that occurs when we read scripture – a process that I believe is guided by the Holy Spirit. Many times, however, traditional readings and biased opinions are interpreted into the text.

Case in point, “there are clear statements in the Bible that God does not sanction homosexual ‘activity’” God says not a word about homosexuals – neither does the Bible. The word didn’t exist when it was written. There are references that tradition has decided mean condemnations for same-sex relations, but those are interpretations – and they are very poor, very biased translations of the closest thing we have to original scripture.

Genesis does not say that one man and one woman is the archetypal form of relationship.
Leviticus does not say that a man should not lay with a male as with a woman. It says, literally, “with a male not you will lie down on beds (or couches) of a woman/wife…” Tradition said beds of a woman meant “as with a woman”, but this mistranslates the actual words found in the Hebrew, Greek and Latin.
Tradition decided that the words malakoi and arsenokoiteyn meant homosexuals, when we actually have no idea what Paul meant by the latter, and the first means a number of things that equate to fancy or feminized.
Tradition has superseded the words of scripture to create the fiction of a homophobic God. You, sir, continue to engage in idolatry by worshipping your own opinion of what God thinks and who God is.

Let me state this very clearly as well. I would never condone or support any actions of violence toward someone because of any sin. And I don't somehow label this particular activity to be any worse than if I tell a lie or cheat on a test.
B.S. How can you decide that your reading of scripture says same-sex relations are against God’s will, but then disavow the very punishment that your reading requires? If you believe Leviticus speaks against homosexual behavior, then you must also believe they deserve to die. Or are you just allowed to nit-pick your way through your own version of scripture, and disavow some of the words you ascribe to God in the first place.

You came here, stating you are not trying to be offensive, but you have been anyway. Perhaps, you can't help yourself. Who knows?

I have read nothing that tells me you have any interest in dialogue. You hide insults behind smiles. You hide judgment behind caring - just as if we were in a burning apartment - under the pretext of pulling us all away from beng hell-bound. This strikes me, in my opinion only, of dissimulation - of deceit and dishonesty.

I, for one, have seen too much of this bait-and-switch approach to condemning GLBT's to have any patience for it. Perhaps you should just concentrate on your own sins that you earlier talked about having to deal with, and let us deal with ours as the Holy Spirit sees fit to guide us. Your willingness to love us and be responsible for our salvation is admirable (well, maybe to someone), but leaves a rancid aftertaste. I'm really more interested in the love of God, anyway - your's just seems like a cheap imitation.

[Daniel]

I hope you do not head for the hills when the going gets a little rough. And I also hope you will be more curious than defensive or merely polite.

And what have we hear?

B.S. How can you decide that your reading of scripture says same-sex relations are against God’s will, but then disavow the very punishment that your reading requires? If you believe Leviticus speaks against homosexual behavior, then you must also believe they deserve to die. Or are you just allowed to nit-pick your way through your own version of scripture, and disavow some of the words you ascribe to God in the first place.

You came here, stating you are not trying to be offensive, but you have been anyway. Perhaps, you can't help yourself. Who knows?

I have read nothing that tells me you have any interest in dialogue. You hide insults behind smiles. You hide judgment behind caring - just as if we were in a burning apartment - under the pretext of pulling us all away from beng hell-bound. This strikes me, in my opinion only, of dissimulation - of deceit and dishonesty.


PK- I think the going just got rough. ;)

[Freespirited]

You'll see that we arent' afraid of discussion,

and we're pretty good at looking critically at

ourselves.


Hello and welcome! I am fairly new to this website and couldn't

helped at quoting these key words! I love it!



LEANDRO

[P-Kay]

You'll see that we arent' afraid of discussion,

and we're pretty good at looking critically at

ourselves.


Hello and welcome! I am fairly new to this website and couldn't

helped at quoting these key words! I love it!



LEANDRO


Aren't afraid of discussion for a short period of time during the equality ride. After that any discussions that are deemed "anti-gay" will be removed.

Oh no, I feel so slighted! You mean I can only engage in "dialogue" if I tote the pro-gay line? Sounds more like monologue to me.

Seems funny. Churches who do not allow active gays to be members or leaders in their church are discriminatory, but Soulforce can silence the voice of dissenting opinion without being discriminatory. Hmmm.

P-Kay

[u-dog]

P-kay,

These forums are what they are and you knew what they were (if you read the guidelines) when you signed up. We loosen the rules during the duration of the Equality Ride in order to accommodate persons like yourself who are drawn here by the ride. Our moderator has reminded us all that now that the E-ride is over, we will be resuming normal operating procedures.

This forum is not primarily a debating society (though it often feels that way and a person like myself doesn't mind that so much) but rather a place of refuge and sanctuary for people who are working for change out there in RL. We still welcome folks like yourself to be here with us, to ask us questions about our experience and our views as long as you have an authentic desire to understand us and not just a desire to tell us that God doesn't like us. Believe us when we say... WE HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME AND WE'RE NOT BUYING IT.

with all the respect in the world,

Dave

[keltic63]

Aren't afraid of discussion for a short period of time during the equality ride. After that any discussions that are deemed "anti-gay" will be removed.

Oh no, I feel so slighted! You mean I can only engage in "dialogue" if I tote the pro-gay line? Sounds more like monologue to me.

Seems funny. Churches who do not allow active gays to be members or leaders in their church are discriminatory, but Soulforce can silence the voice of dissenting opinion without being discriminatory. Hmmm.

P-Kay

Forgive me in advance if this sounds a bit testy.

I just went back to the first few pages of this thread. P-Kay, you made a pretty good entrance to the forums. A number of us welcomed you and entered into dialogue with you. As I re-read my own posts and your responses, I discovered that there are major pieces of discussion that you ignored totally, didn't bother to respond to at all. that was a perfect opportunity for you to make the statements that you wanted.

as moderator, I removed 1 post in which the original poster compared homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality. The OP was not banned, yet those kinds of statements are the very thing which will cause a member to be removed from this internet community.

The words I've highlighted in bold: sarcasm and disrespect. Use sarcasm sparingly, I've been learning my lesson on that.

[Freespirited]

Forgive me in advance if this sounds a bit testy.

I just went back to the first few pages of this thread. P-Kay, you made a pretty good entrance to the forums. A number of us welcomed you and entered into dialogue with you. As I re-read my own posts and your responses, I discovered that there are major pieces of discussion that you ignored totally, didn't bother to respond to at all. that was a perfect opportunity for you to make the statements that you wanted.

as moderator, I removed 1 post in which the original poster compared homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality. The OP was not banned, yet those kinds of statements are the very thing which will cause a member to be removed from this internet community.

The words I've highlighted in bold: sarcasm and disrespect. Use sarcasm sparingly, I've been learning my lesson on that.


Hi Keltic!


Thank you for making that known! I came from another gay christian website, the one that separate us into group A and group B, and moderators claimed they don't have time to filter inproperties in every post!? and yet when I shared and even emphasized "In my opinion" statements I got notified within minutes that my comments were making a lot of overly sensitive members very uncomfortable and such. But I notice that the members and moderators of SOULFORCE are a lot more tolerant, fair, and even accepting of differences of opinions.....and that is a good thing!! I am in a bit of a hurry since I must go to work now.....but I will be back later tonight!


LEANDRO

[shiningstones16]

These forums are what they are and you knew what they were (if you read the guidelines) when you signed up.

Just like these forums... the Universities visited by the Equality Ride are what they are and those going to the universities knew that when they enrolled in them. But that does not stop Soul Force from openly critisizing these universities policies and demanding change by ignoring those policies.

This forum is not primarily a debating society (though it often feels that way and a person like myself doesn't mind that so much) but rather a place of refuge and sanctuary for people who are working for change out there in RL.

BYU-Idaho is my sanctuary in a world that is rapidly becoming intolerant of my beliefs. It just seems to me, that it's a two-way street. If you want a place of refuge and sanctuary... make it, but don't expect others to respect it if you do not respect theirs.

I have posted here quite a bit over the last few days and I hope this is taken the right way. I am not promoting intolerance. I just think, that the respect you get is equal to the respect you have for others. Critisism only beget critisism. Intolerance only beget intolerance. I know that many of you feel that we, religious universities, are receiving the critisism that we bagan by being intolerant to members of your community. But, by being a part of that intolerance and critisism, aren't you just setting your selves up for more? The responces I have seen here would sugest, yes.

If you really want a change, and not more negative attention... is attacking other's beliefs really the way to propagate that change.

[u-dog]

Just like these forums... the Universities visited by the Equality Ride are what they are and those going to the universities knew that when they enrolled in them. But that does not stop Soul Force from openly critisizing these universities policies and demanding change by ignoring those policies.



BYU-Idaho is my sanctuary in a world that is rapidly becoming intolerant of my beliefs. It just seems to me, that it's a two-way street. If you want a place of refuge and sanctuary... make it, but don't expect others to respect it if you do not respect theirs.

I have posted here quite a bit over the last few days and I hope this is taken the right way. I am not promoting intolerance. I just think, that the respect you get is equal to the respect you have for others. Critisism only beget critisism. Intolerance only beget intolerance. I know that many of you feel that we, religious universities, are receiving the critisism that we bagan by being intolerant to members of your community. But, by being a part of that intolerance and critisism, aren't you just setting your selves up for more? The responces I have seen here would sugest, yes.

If you really want a change, and not more negative attention... is attacking other's beliefs really the way to propagate that change.

You are under arrest for Tresspassing! You have the right to remain silent, but anything you say may be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an.......

:smashy: BAIL IS SET AT $1,000 !! COURT ADJOURNED!

[Daniel]

BYU-Idaho is my sanctuary in a world that is rapidly becoming intolerant of my beliefs. It just seems to me, that it's a two-way street. If you want a place of refuge and sanctuary... make it, but don't expect others to respect it if you do not respect theirs.


My brother, who is a missionary, also expouses this view, that being the 'world' is intolerant of conservative christians. And while I have no doubt as to the reality of his feeling, an objective view of the situation indicates otherwise.

Do pundits, columnists, liberals thinkers and comedians decry religious conservatives for their views? To be sure. But these same do not enact laws which deprive them of liberty or make laws which prohibit them from seeking justice and equality.

Gay people, however, currently face an array of federal and state laws which specifically block their path to liberty.

Can you name any laws which are discriminatory towards conservative Christians?

[Daniel]

Oh no, I feel so slighted! You mean I can only engage in "dialogue" if I tote the pro-gay line? Sounds more like monologue to me.


P-Kay- I think you are confusing matters here.

The matter is not about 'toting' the pro-gay line. (Perhaps you meant to say saying 'toeing the line'. Toting is carrying a bag). What is at issue is the manner in which discussion takes place.

Dissenting opinions notwithstanding, what is at issue is those statements which, in and of themselves, are anti-gay.

These kinds of statement do not further dialogue. Rather, they make dialogue impossible.

Lastly, preventing a gay person from ministry or involvement in a place of worship is viewed by those of us here as being discriminatory, That is true. However, refraining from allowing anti-gay rhetoric on this forum is something else entirely.

The difference becomes clear when one contemplates the power of words. It is anti-gay rhetoric (and those who expouse such rhetoric) which prevents gay people from holding positions in churches and not the inherent nature of gay persons. It is the difference between perception and being.

What your are arguing for is the right to condemn, not only in your pew, but on this forum.

[shiningstones16]

If you have read any of my posts you will know that I do not suport anti LGBT legislation. I do believe in a seperation of church and state. I do believe that, even though I personaly disagree with the choice that LGBT are making, everyone has the right to choose their actions. And I do believe that everyone should be able to live in a kind and compasionate world. I know that some of you feel that I can't believe these things and believe that LGBT acts are immoral... but these are my beliefs.

I am sorry that more conservative Christians feel the need to force their views on others. According to my perseption of the scriptures Christ invited people to follow him. Even if our interpretations vary... why should I force my views on others?

All I was saying is that I think Soul Force could find a more positive way to influence a group, that is allready unaproving of them, than to show up and try to force the change on them. As much as members of this forum dislike people opposing their views here, so do the vast majority of students at these universities.

PS- U-Dog, I am trying very hard to follow the rules set for this forum... if I do not follow them I fully expect to be kicked out. Just as I am certain the members of the equality ride fully expected to be arrested when they knowingly tresspassed on private property.

[Montanna]

:confused:
All I was saying is that I think Soul Force could find a more positive way to influence a group, that is allready unaproving of them, than to show up and try to force the change on them. As much as members of this forum dislike people opposing their views here, so do the vast majority of students at these universities.


It seems like they showed up to talk to you. What made you so uncomfortable that you felt it as "forcing you"? Got any suggestions on "positive" ways to influence a group? :) Montanna

[u-dog]

PS- U-Dog, I am trying very hard to follow the rules set for this forum... if I do not follow them I fully expect to be kicked out. Just as I am certain the members of the equality ride fully expected to be arrested when they knowingly tresspassed on private property.

which was, of course, sort of the point of my little mock arrest. The E-riders came to BYU, had their say, were arrested, and fined. You came here, complained about the rules... and I had you arrested and fined. It was a little light-hearted irony ;)

[Freespirited]

I used to think that if I sat down like a civilized human being
to discuss the differences, or try to understand straight
christians or any other religious person for that matter,
that eventually I will come into some sort of understanding!?
but you know what folks the fact of the matter is that:

YOU CAN'T TEACH AN OLD DOG NEW TRICKS!!


I am fortunate at this point in my life at the tender
age of 44, and for the past 23 years I'ved being at
peace with God, family, friends, co-workers, and
myself in regards to my homosexuality! I don't need
the disapproval nor the approval of a bunch of religious
freaks, who have a long history of crimes to humanity
to tell me what is or not moral, or how to run my life.


I am above anything else a gay man who believes in the
existance of a God that is all love, does not judge, or
condemns me for choosing to be what I am because I
feel comfortable in my own skin.


I love the driven force of passion and conviction that
Soulforce have thanks to the support it gets from the
highly intellectual and passionate GBLT members of this
website, who aren't just proud of their sexual identity
but more so for their sexuality.


LEANDRO

[shiningstones16]

Let me clarify some more. lol. First, U-Dog... I know you see the irony and that you allways respond with compassion and humor. That's why I always enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work.

But, I did not complain about the rules. I am trying very hard to keep the obligation I made when becoming a member of this forum. It is my way of showing I respect the freedom of this LGBT community to act according to their moral conscience. And I do respect this God given freedom. (If this somehow makes me a religious freak, oh well... I hope my old tricks will entertain someone out there ;) )

This is as simple as I know how to say it. Force is the cause of motion, or a change of motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you give kindness and compassion, others give kindness and compasion to you (opposite in direction). If you give critisism, others give critisism to you. There are many voices on this forum that just want to see a better world, but there are also many voices that demand others change their moral consience. As long as these voices continue they will be met with a like requirement.

I am reminded of a story I once heard about Mother Teresa. She said she would never go to an anti-war rally, only peace rallies. Because to make a positive change in the world... you can only allow your self positive emotions and actions.

I want to live in a world filled with peace and kindness. I only give these ideas as sugestions to help this process along.

[u-dog]

Shining,

Perhaps I should have been more direct. I SEE your attempt to honor the spirit of this community and I appreciate it. We have experienced this before with certain people who have disagreed with us but honored our process. Its the reason we haven't given you the old "heave ho" already. If you are following the discussion over on the other thread "consider our conversation" (or something like that) it is the nature of this group to be self-critical and to try to improve our interactions with others.

However, having said that, I still fundamentally disagree with your critique of the Equality Ride strategy. The way I see it, The ER approaches a college community and says "we are coming to have an important conversation with you. We want to have a conversation with you but we are coming whether you agree or not." This may seem violent and rude to you but from our perspective, too much is at stake for us to do otherwise. Young people are killing themselves because they can't face the attacks on their nature that current policies represent. Each college or university has a choice in how they will respond. They can say "OK come on let's talk" or they can say "If you come you will be arrested". Either response is valid and legal and within their rights. Each response has a set of consequences for both the ERiders and for the university. The E-riders are willing to accept EITHER set of consequences. The consequences of dialogue are universally positive. The Consequences of resistance are only positive for the E-riders (minus the fines and the time spent in jail of course).

No ones rights have been taken away and the only freedom which has been restricted is the freedom of certain colleges and universities to hide their heads in the sand while young people suffer and die.

The other problem with your argument is that you equate our "freedom to exist in safety" with your "freedom to hold a particular theological opinion" Can you see (and this is not a rhetorical question! I really want to know if it is possible for your to "see") that the two things are NOT equal or analogous?

For us it is not simply "an opinion" or a "belief" among other opinions and beliefs. For us it is about the FUNDAMENTAL NATURE OF OUR BEING. When I assert the basic morality of my existence and my need to love and be loved, I am perhaps making you uncomfortable, but I am NOT doing violence to you. When you assert that WHO I AM is an offense to God, you are NOT merely expressing an arcane theological notion that makes me uncomfortable, YOU ARE DOING VIOLENCE. VIOLENCE THAT HAS REAL AND TANGIBLE AND MEASURABLE EFFECTS ON REAL HUMAN BEINGS.

I AM A GAY MAN ,SHINING! Its not something I chose. Its not something I do. Its NOT A LIFESTYLE. My lifestyle is that I am faithfully married to my wife of 23 years. I actively parent my adult children. I participate in the life of my community. My wife knows, accepts, and honors me as a GAY MAN. We have chosen for the present time NOT to divorce and NOT to open our relationship to other people. ALL OF THAT IS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE. All of it comes at a cost. A fairly HUGE COST. When and if the costs begins to outweigh the benefits I imagine that I will change my "lifestyle" . I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND MY CHOICES IN LIFE TO SOMEONE ELSE !! I just continue to make the best choices that I can based on the choices I have made in the past. The idea of Austin or Greg or Jennifer, or Brian, for instance, following my path breaks my heart. I want them to find and express and embody love in all parts of their lives. I want them to know from the beginning the pride in themselves that I have only discovered in recent years

Keltic (Steve) chose to end his marriage when he could no longer afford to pay the costs. that was a decision that came with Costs of its own. But he believes (and I believe HIM) that the costs were worth it. He has a partner whom he can love with his whole heart, his whole mind, and his whole body. He seems to have a wonderful relationship with his children.

My point is that we don't "do" gay. we don't "believe" gay. We ARE GAY!

Does any of this help? Can you see the difference?

[shiningstones16]

I understand what you are saying. Do I have to agree? Can i still help move our world toward a better place, even though I disagree? Why can't we have tolerance toward each other?

[Daniel]

I understand what you are saying. Do I have to agree? Can i still help move our world toward a better place, even though I disagree? Why can't we have tolerance toward each other?

Because tolerance is not love. Tolerance holds on to a tiny bit of judgment- and reserves the right to condemn.

Tolerance is looking at another person through gritted teeth.

[u-dog]

I understand what you are saying. Do I have to agree? Can i still help move our world toward a better place, even though I disagree? Why can't we have tolerance toward each other?


Yes, Shiningstones, we can move forward together, as long as you understand that I do so out of a voluntary forebearance of the violence that you do me. And when we stand together in the bright light of God's judgement, I will recieve your abject apology with all the grace that comes from the infinite perspective of Eternal Life. :love:

[Zerbie]

I understand what you are saying. Do I have to agree? Can i still help move our world toward a better place, even though I disagree? Why can't we have tolerance toward each other?

Thank you for helping and trying to make the world a better place. No, I didn't know that you oppose anti-gay legislation - I'm glad you do, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing so. When you didn't reply to my post with the suggestions earlier in this thread, I wondered if you avoided responding because those suggestions bothered you.

Now, I have a genuine question for you. Something that for the life of me I cannot understand and have never been able to understand.:confused: :confused: :confused:

Your quote above. . . it's in response to U-Dog sharing with incredible candor the deepest personal experiences of his soul, life, and heart.
What in the world makes you think it's possible to "disagree" with a human being's internal experience and his entire personal reality? Why do you think you have an option to "disagree" with it? And HOW do you disagree with being?

Trying to put it another way, it's like if you were to tell me who you are in your heart of hearts and I responded with, "I understand. Do I have to agree?" Would that make any sense to you?

We don't have an option of disagreeing. Udog just. . . IS. He isn't a belief. He's. . .Udog.

Lastly - I think perhaps now I'm asking the crucial question: what does "agreeing" mean? Because, while I don't "disagree" with Udog being himself, neither can I "agree" with him for being. Unless he's a hologram, I don't get to ascertain whether he is or not. It wouldn't make sense.

[pnggrad79]

PK,
When one speaks of sex outside of marriage, I tend to think it is a social constraint put upon people by a religious establishment that says sex is wrong period and one shouldn't engage in it unless they want to procreate. In addition to that, since gay people are excluded from the right to marry, the religious right likes to point fingers at us and say we are immoral because we have sex with a same sex partner outside of marriage. Hello? if we could GET MARRIED, we wouldn't be sleeping around. Moreover, gay people are often afraid to explore their sexuality out in the open. We can't date like straight people do, go to the prom, show affection, etc, so whatever we do has to be in secret or behind closed doors, or worse yet, in dark corners of bars because otherwise we are accused of "flaunting our sexuality". I think it leads to stunted sexual maturity which I think fosters the idea that gay people bed hop and are promiscuous. We aren't allowed to do anything else. I applaud gay people who are comfortable in their sexuality and aren't sexually immature, but sadly this social constraint of what is acceptable sexuality and what isn't has put a lot of gay people in a mental and sexual prison. God does not call us to live inauthentic lives, but the religious right wants us to keep our sexuality hidden and out of their sight.
I think we need a major societal shift in the way we think and let people grow up healthy and happy instead of stunted. If we let gay young people know that it is ok to be gay, they would get to explore their feelings out in the open and go thru the same travails that straight kids go through. They would seek more permanence in their relationships.

Just my opinion...

[tdogg]

What you say makes sense pnggrad. The only thing I would add is, that I don't see all that many heterosexual relationships being all that permanent, even given their priviledge to be legally married. This country is way too uptight about sex. It is a gift, to be treasured and also enjoyed. I prefer to enjoy it with the one person I love with all my heart, and that I expect to stay with all my days. Things can change (hence heterosexuals also have the priviledge of divorce), but as far as I can see in my future, this is it for me. But I certainly wouldn't begin to judge someone else who perhaps has a different view on what sex is to them or how they express their sexuality (of course, given we don't hurt anyone or break laws).

[Freespirited]

PK,
When one speaks of sex outside of marriage, I tend to think it is a social constraint put upon people by a religious establishment that says sex is wrong period and one shouldn't engage in it unless they want to procreate. In addition to that, since gay people are excluded from the right to marry, the religious right likes to point fingers at us and say we are immoral because we have sex with a same sex partner outside of marriage. Hello? if we could GET MARRIED, we wouldn't be sleeping around. Moreover, gay people are often afraid to explore their sexuality out in the open. We can't date like straight people do, go to the prom, show affection, etc, so whatever we do has to be in secret or behind closed doors, or worse yet, in dark corners of bars because otherwise we are accused of "flaunting our sexuality". I think it leads to stunted sexual maturity which I think fosters the idea that gay people bed hop and are promiscuous. We aren't allowed to do anything else. I applaud gay people who are comfortable in their sexuality and aren't sexually immature, but sadly this social constraint of what is acceptable sexuality and what isn't has put a lot of gay people in a mental and sexual prison. God does not call us to live inauthentic lives, but the religious right wants us to keep our sexuality hidden and out of their sight.
I think we need a major societal shift in the way we think and let people grow up healthy and happy instead of stunted. If we let gay young people know that it is ok to be gay, they would get to explore their feelings out in the open and go thru the same travails that straight kids go through. They would seek more permanence in their relationships.

Just my opinion...


I love your comment! unfortunately I like to add that the so called religious right also exist amongs fundamentalist and conservative GAYS too!

I know many gay people who prefer to live a celibate life because they feel gay sex is a sin as per their religious beliefs! in my opinion that kind of mentality is very unhealthy which triggers psychological side effect, that leads many gay christians to live very deprived, unhappy lives, and a very negative self image of themselves and their sexuality!


LEANDRO

[antonyh]

I know many gay people who prefer to live a celibate life because they feel gay sex is a sin as per their religious beliefs! in my opinion that kind of mentality is very unhealthy which triggers psychological side effect, that leads many gay christians to live very deprived, unhappy lives, and a very negative self image of themselves and their sexuality!
LEANDRO

I have to disagree. If a gay person chooses to be celibate because they feel it is the best way they can reconcile their faith and sexuality, I say we should support them. It is a hard enough decision without added oppression from other LGBT people.

[Zerbie]

Mixed - I agree to an extent with both of you, because you're both right. That's why it's such a conflict!

We need to respect their decision for celibacy if they feel unable to reconcile their sexuality with their faith. BUT, I know people in this situation too, and they are not happy. They cry over the lack in their life. These are not people who WANT to be celibate, but people who believe they MUST in order not to lose their relationship with God. I respect the decision, but I am also heartbroken for these people, for the joy, intimacy, and human growth and companionship that they are deprived of.

[BrentRichards]

As one who lived a long time in commitment to celibacy because I believed my homosexuality was wrong ... please do respect those people, and allow them to make their own choices. There was no way I was going to be pushed out of that mindset before I was ready, and looking back, I'm not sure I should have been ready any sooner. We all come our own way. Some will choose that for life and be fulfilled in it, others will choose it as a solution of integrity until they can reconcile their faith and sexuality. They're one of us, not the enemy. My two cents.

[Zerbie]

As one who lived a long time in commitment to celibacy because I believed my homosexuality was wrong ... please do respect those people, and allow them to make their own choices. There was no way I was going to be pushed out of that mindset before I was ready, and looking back, I'm not sure I should have been ready any sooner. We all come our own way. Some will choose that for life and be fulfilled in it, others will choose it as a solution of integrity until they can reconcile their faith and sexuality. They're one of us, not the enemy. My two cents.

Yes. Beautifully said, Brent. :love:

[Freespirited]

I like to clarify that I am ONLY speaking about those whose chosen path to celibacy didn't make them very happy people, as they struggle everyday with the longing to be with a mate, and their oppressed sexuality; is that healthy??

I respect those who choose to be celibate as long as they are happy with not just pleasing God but also being at ease with their basic human instints and needs! and I am speaking from experience from having worked as a trained counselor years ago in local schools and universities in my area with questioning gay youth and university students.



LEANDRO

[antonyh]

Mixed - I agree to an extent with both of you, because you're both right. That's why it's such a conflict!

We need to respect their decision for celibacy if they feel unable to reconcile their sexuality with their faith. BUT, I know people in this situation too, and they are not happy. They cry over the lack in their life. These are not people who WANT to be celibate, but people who believe they MUST in order not to lose their relationship with God. I respect the decision, but I am also heartbroken for these people, for the joy, intimacy, and human growth and companionship that they are deprived of.

I think the decision to be celibate is very difficult for gay Christians because it places them in a situation where they experience hostility from two communities. They experience hostility from the Christian community because they are gay (even though they are celibate) and they experience hostility from the LGBT community because they are viewed with suspicion. Must be a lonely place.

If I interpret the Bible using an Evangelical perspective (ev sem grad here), I still can't say definitively that the Bible of not against homosexuality. It is a hard call to make especially from Romans 1. I'm not an Evangelical, but if I was, it would be a hard call. Don't freak out ya'll :pray:

Given this background, I think it is valid for someone who cherishes their faith and tradition, to make a sacrifice and live a celibate life.

Can I do it...hell no. But I can respect someone making that decision.

[Zerbie]

I think the decision to be celibate is very difficult for gay Christians because it places them in a situation where they experience hostility from two communities. They experience hostility from the Christian community because they are gay (even though they are celibate) and they experience hostility from the LGBT community because they are viewed with suspicion. Must be a lonely place.

Given this background, I think it is valid for someone who cherishes their faith and tradition, to make a sacrifice and live a celibate life.

Can I do it...hell no. But I can respect someone making that decision.

Dear God!! Are we coming across as hostile?????!! The whole point of being here is wanting to provide a safe space where all gay people can feel loved and cherished, and safe to cipher out how (or if) to reconcile their sexuality with their faith.

I have the utmost respect for the seriousness of this journey. It is someone's entire inner LIFE we're talking about.
But at the same time I feel pain and sorrow when I know that someone who craves an intimate relationship, a partner, affection, touch, physical expression, emotional intimacy, is denying it to himself/herself out of a sense of having No Other Choice.
Of always being caught between two intolerables: loneliness, lack of sexual fulfillment, lack of partnership, lack of emotional romance OR fulfilling one's sexual/emotional/psychological need for human intimacy with an uneasy dread of offending God or even severing oneself from God in doing so. Either one of these scenarios leads to heartbreak or to intolerable anxiety. It breaks my heart that anyone should be caught between two non-negotiables in this way.

I am sure that it's part of Soulforce's mission to provide an atmosphere where people in these situations can feel valued and loved where they are right now. Whether they decide to "come out," be celibate, explore and question, or just what. It's for them that SF exists, is it not?

For my part, I hope to see a world where people caught "in the middle" are neither prodded to become "ex gays" nor prodded to take up the flag, come out, and march in the street. Actually, that was the point of the thread I started about a year ago, Antony, before you were here. I think it was called 'Conflicted questioning gay people' or something like that.

Maybe it's time to bump it?

The last thing I ever want to do is drive people off or compound their feelings of isolation.

[Simon]

Wow! Interesting thread.

This begs me to ask a very important question: let us say a celibate gay or lesbian person would come to this forum and start repeatedly posting that homosexuals should remain celibate because they believe that the Bible is saying that same-sex intercourse is a sin and also that there are eunuchs (a typical celibacy ideology), would you welcome and let them stay here? Keep in mind, that those supporters of celibacy and believers in the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, are also gays and lesbians. It's just Antony and Zerbie have recently stated in several of their posts that SF should welcome all gays and lesbians, regardless of the stages, where they are on their spiritual journeys reconciling their faith and sexuality. So, I was prompted to ask this kind of question.

Just curious,

Simon

[Zerbie]

Wow! Interesting thread.

This begs me to ask a very important question: let us say a celibate gay or lesbian person would come to this forum and start repeatedly posting that homosexuals should remain celibate because they believe that the Bible is saying that same-sex intercourse is a sin and also that there are eunuchs (a typical celibacy ideology), would you welcome and let them stay here? Keep in mind, that those supporters of celibacy and believers in the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, are also gays and lesbians. It's just Antony and Zerbie have recently stated in several of their posts that SF should welcome all gays and lesbians, regardless of the stages, where they are on their spiritual journeys reconciling their faith and sexuality. So, I was prompted to ask this kind of question.

Just curious,

Simon

As long as they aren't telling OTHERS to make the SAME DECISION, of course they should be made a welcome part of the group. The point is, as someone (Brent?) just said - they're ourselves - they're US.

The point is, all people should be valued and made welcome. But it isn't okay to persistently tell others that there is something essentially wrong with them for who they are. That constitutes verbal abuse, and would fall outside SF forum guidelines. We once had an "ex gay" visit for a day or two during which he continually insisted on persuading others that they needed to "change" as well, and he was, I believe, banned, for his continued insistence that others here needed to "repent"- or however it was worded.

But an individual making that choice for himself alone? - respecting that others have found their spiritual journey to be different - would, I personally hope, be welcomed with open loving arms.

[keltic63]

Wow! Interesting thread.

This begs me to ask a very important question: let us say a celibate gay or lesbian person would come to this forum and start repeatedly posting that homosexuals should remain celibate because they believe that the Bible is saying that same-sex intercourse is a sin and also that there are eunuchs (a typical celibacy ideology), would you welcome and let them stay here? Keep in mind, that those supporters of celibacy and believers in the sinfulness of homosexual behavior, are also gays and lesbians. It's just Antony and Zerbie have recently stated in several of their posts that SF should welcome all gays and lesbians, regardless of the stages, where they are on their spiritual journeys reconciling their faith and sexuality. So, I was prompted to ask this kind of question.

Just curious,

Simon

As Zerbie pointed out, as long as that person did not make condemning statements to others about their lack of celibacy, they would be welcome to join in the discussions. I also think that those people who believe that homosexual orientation is ok, but homosexual acts are sinful, are on shaky theological ground. It wouldn't take long for the theologians around here to debunk that theology. I've read the statements over at GCN about "Side B" theology, and frankly, it's too much of a stretch to arrive at that decision. I ran it through the "Jesus Filter" and it just doesn't match.
As others have pointed out, celibacy is not a mandate, but rather a "charism" or gift. An individual called to celibacy out of respect to their service to God, is not the same as someone who has it imposed upon them by religious dogma.

[u-dog]

As one who lived a long time in commitment to celibacy because I believed my homosexuality was wrong ... please do respect those people, and allow them to make their own choices. There was no way I was going to be pushed out of that mindset before I was ready, and looking back, I'm not sure I should have been ready any sooner. We all come our own way. Some will choose that for life and be fulfilled in it, others will choose it as a solution of integrity until they can reconcile their faith and sexuality. They're one of us, not the enemy. My two cents.

They didn't "choose" celibacy. They were gifted with it for a season. As were you.

All Christians (Gay and straight alike) can and should choose to live "Chastely" but no one chooses "celibacy" unless they are gifted with it by the Holy Spirit.

[antonyh]

Dear God!! Are we coming across as hostile?????!! The whole point of being here is wanting to provide a safe space where all gay people can feel loved and cherished, and safe to cipher out how (or if) to reconcile their sexuality with their faith.

Sorry to give you the impression I was harping on your entry or on Soulforce. I was making a broad generalized observation.

[antonyh]

They didn't "choose" celibacy. They were gifted with it for a season. As were you.

All Christians (Gay and straight alike) can and should choose to live "Chastely" but no one chooses "celibacy" unless they are gifted with it by the Holy Spirit.

If an Evangelical with a sincere conscience decides that life long chastity is the best way they can live with fidelity to their God and faith, then we should support them.

[keltic63]

If an Evangelical with a sincere conscience decides that life long chastity is the best way they can live with fidelity to their God and faith, then we should support them.


I agree, but I will not agree if that same Evangelical decides to impose that on all lgbt people.

[antonyh]

I agree, but I will not agree if that same Evangelical decides to impose that on all lgbt people.

Amen to that.

I think it boils down to recognizing the difficulty of the issue and allowing people freedom of conscience.

I have great difficulty accepting any attempts to change someones sexual orientation. I feel that is doing psychological violence to someone.

[u-dog]

If an Evangelical with a sincere conscience decides that life long chastity is the best way they can live with fidelity to their God and faith, then we should support them.

"Chastity" is more than a pretty word for "celibate" Married people who limit their sexual expression to each other are "chaste". Daniel and his husband are living chaste lives even though they are presumably intimately and sexually active with each other. I think that you might even be able to make the case (though it would be a bit of a stretch :rolleyes: ) that Scott S. is living a chaste lifestyle within his polyamorous group of Pagan Faery lovers. "Chaste" means living in such a way that one's sexual expression is disciplined (that is NOT a reference to S&M ;) ) within covenanted relationships.

Celibacy is a subset of Chastity. I can chose to live chastely or unchastely, but I don't believe that celibacy is a choice. If I am gifted with the ability to be celibate then I can choose that form of chastity. If I am NOT gifted with Celibacy then I must choose another form of chastity... a covenanted relationship with another person.

If a gay Christian person were to come here and tell us that he has the gift of celibacy and wishes to choose that form of chastity in order to honor God. We should honor that.

If that person were to come here and tell us that ALL OF US have the same spiritual gift that he does and must choose just as he has chosen, then we would NOT need to honor THAT.

If that person were to come here and tell us that he had the gift of celibacy and was choosing that form of chastity, but it became clear over time that HE DID NOT have that gift and trying to live a life for which he was not gifted, we would be required by both justice and love to confront him with the fact that he was trying to live in a way that was damaging to himself AND dishonoring God.

[antonyh]

"Chastity" is more than a pretty word for "celibate" Married people who limit their sexual expression to each other are "chaste". Daniel and his husband are living chaste lives even though they are presumably intimately and sexually active with each other. I think that you might even be able to make the case (though it would be a bit of a stretch :rolleyes: ) that Scott S. is living a chaste lifestyle within his polyamorous group of Pagan Faery lovers. "Chaste" means living in such a way that one's sexual expression is disciplined (that is NOT a reference to S&M ;) ) within covenanted relationships.

Celibacy is a subset of Chastity. I can chose to live chastely or unchastely, but I don't believe that celibacy is a choice. If I am gifted with the ability to be celibate then I can choose that form of chastity. If I am NOT gifted with Celibacy then I must choose another form of chastity... a covenanted relationship with another person.

If a gay Christian person were to come here and tell us that he has the gift of celibacy and wishes to choose that form of chastity in order to honor God. We should honor that.

If that person were to come here and tell us that ALL OF US have the same spiritual gift that he does and must choose just as he has chosen, then we would NOT need to honor THAT.

If that person were to come here and tell us that he had the gift of celibacy and was choosing that form of chastity, but it became clear over time that HE DID NOT have that gift and trying to live a life for which he was not gifted, we would be required by both justice and love to confront him with the fact that he was trying to live in a way that was damaging to himself AND dishonoring God.

If an Evangelical with a sincere conscience decides that abstaining from sex for the rest of his/her life is the best way to live with fidelity to God and faith, then we should support them.

All this polyamorous group of Pagan Faery lovers and S&M stuff is going to scare away Simpleman and Simon.

p.s. Your semantic domains for celibacy and chastity may be too rigid.

[u-dog]

If an Evangelical with a sincere conscience decides that obstaining from sex for the rest of his/her life is the best way to live with fidelity to God and faith, then we should support them.

All this polyamorous group of Pagan Faery lovers and S&M stuff is going to scare away Simpleton and Simon.

p.s. Your semantic domains for celibacy and chastity may be too rigid.

Let me see if I can be clearer Antony:

1. I don't believe that the ability to refrain from sex is a "decision" that everyone/anyone can make. In that belief I draw on direct observation, personal experience, the writings of Paul, and the writings of john Calvin. Paul wishes that we could all be gifted to choose to be celibate as he has done for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, however he admits that we are not and that it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

2. A person who is Gay, Christian and who wishes to be celibate, but who is, in fact, NOT gifted with that "Charism" will do both himself and the Kingdom of God harm in the attempt and should not be encouraged (supported loved, and held accountable -- yes).

3. A person who is Gay, Christian, wishes to be celibate and who IS GIFTED WITH THIS CHARISM should be honored for their decision if it is their intent to honor God with it.

4. This is NOT ABOUT SEMANTICS. This is an essential point for Gay Christians, because if our hypothetical Christian friend can "Choose celibacy" then the Church can continue to insist that ALL GAY CHRISTIANS MUST CHOOSE THAT PATH. And that is just plain, flat out wrong !! The church CANNOT legislate who will have and who will not have what Spiritual gifts.

[antonyh]

4. This is NOT ABOUT SEMANTICS. This is an essential point for Gay Christians, because if our hypothetical Christian friend can "Choose celibacy" then the Church can continue to insist that ALL GAY CHRISTIANS MUST CHOOSE THAT PATH. And that is just plain, flat out wrong !! The church CANNOT legislate who will have and who will not have what Spiritual gifts.

So you're disagreeing with Mel White where he write:

"As a gay man who accepts my homosexuality as a gift from God, I am ready to end my quarrel with those homosexual or bisexual men and women who are now living in heterosexual relationships or practicing celibacy or various methods of restraint (often at great personal price). The debate forces us to believe that there is only one right way to respond to our need for intimacy and affiliation. If only we could see each other as God's children, making difficult decisions, living our lives as best we can, trusting God to love us, forgive us, and understand our hearts. We should grant each other the right to make our own decisions about sexual orientation and then support each other even when we disagree. Our journeys are much the same. We need each other. This debate just forces us apart."

[u-dog]

between what I said and what Mel is saying in that quote, but if it is Mel's opinion that Celibacy is an act of will (a choice) rather than a spiritual gift (a charism) granted by the Holy Spirit, then, yes, I disagree with him.

[BrentRichards]

I think the choice/charism distinction is significant ... I just don't want to be the one deciding who's got the charism and who doesn't.

[antonyh]

I think the choice/charism distinction is significant ... I just don't want to be the one deciding who's got the charism and who doesn't.

I think it is hocus pocus. People decide.

Their choices need to respected.

[u-dog]

but I'm thinking about the "ex-gay" fella's that used to (and probably still do) show up to testify before General Assembly committees and were then spotted hitting the gay bars in the evenings.

If a brother or sister in Christ is :headbang: trying to be what he or she is not, then we have an obligation to help that person understand that trying to be celibate when that is not their gift is self-destructive and doesn't honor God or further the Kingdom.

A person who IS SO gifted and called should be accepted and honored for their choice and for their desire to please God as long as there is no implication that their choice is somehow superior.

that, is really all that I am saying. Celibacy is not a choice that just anyone can make and we need to fight the notion that it is.

dave

[antonyh]

but I'm thinking about the "ex-gay" fella's that used to (and probably still do) show up to testify before General Assembly committees and were then spotted hitting the gay bars in the evenings.

If a brother or sister in Christ is :headbang: trying to be what he or she is not, then we have an obligation to help that person understand that trying to be celibate when that is not their gift is self-destructive and doesn't honor God or further the Kingdom.

A person who IS SO gifted and called should be accepted and honored for their choice and for their desire to please God as long as there is no implication that their choice is somehow superior.

that, is really all that I am saying. Celibacy is not a choice that just anyone can make and we need to fight the notion that it is.

dave

I'm not referring to ex-gays, but to people who are gay, accept that, but simply choose to abstain.

[u-dog]

never mind.

[Freespirited]

The questions we should all be asking is:

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

(2) If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

(3) Does celibacy helps a person purify their sinful human nature?

(4) How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

PENNIES FOR YOUR THOUGHTS!! ;)


I welcome any responses to my questions!!!


LEANDRO

[antonyh]

The questions we should all be asking is:

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

Not sure if you're referring to sins in general or "the sin of homosexuality" in particular.

(2) If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

Sexual orientation is part of being. Even if you don't act on it, it is still part of being.

(3) Does celibacy help a person purify their sinful human nature?

No

(4) How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

It would give you more time to serve God and to be with God and serve others. Having a partner is very time consuming.

PENNIES FOR YOUR THOUGHTS!! ;)

[Simon]

As Zerbie pointed out, as long as that person did not make condemning statements to others about their lack of celibacy, they would be welcome to join in the discussions. I also think that those people who believe that homosexual orientation is ok, but homosexual acts are sinful, are on shaky theological ground. It wouldn't take long for the theologians around here to debunk that theology. I've read the statements over at GCN about "Side B" theology, and frankly, it's too much of a stretch to arrive at that decision. I ran it through the "Jesus Filter" and it just doesn't match.
As others have pointed out, celibacy is not a mandate, but rather a "charism" or gift. An individual called to celibacy out of respect to their service to God, is not the same as someone who has it imposed upon them by religious dogma.

I remember that on GCN, they had a feature called the Great Debate between Justin and Ron. I guess it's not very liked here, right? A couple of years ago, they did an interview with a man named Matt on their radio, the leader of this "Side B group." Check it out:
http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio/trans_092904.php

In my opinion, this is the best example of an open dialogue I have ever seen. I think this is how all activists shoul conduct dialogues on the sensitive issues of sexuality.

[antonyh]

I remember that on GCN, they had a feature called the Great Debate between Justin and Ron. I guess it's not very liked here, right? A couple of years ago, they did an interview with a man named Matt on their radio, the leader of this "Side B group." Check it out:
http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio/trans_092904.php

In my opinion, this is the best example of an open dialogue I have ever seen. I think this is how all activists shoul conduct dialogues on the sensitive issues of sexuality.

Here are the guidelines for this group:

"Welcome to the SideB main page (still under development)! Here you'll find an overview of what "SideB" means, answers to some FAQ, and information that will help you decide whether this is a group you'd like to join!

For starters, some definitions are in order! What does this "SideB" thing mean? Essentially, "SideB" is a way to describe a set of beliefs about human sexuality. Just like any term that attempts to define a set of beliefs, there's definitely individual variation, but the basic tenets are these:

1) We believe that God has established a very particular context for sexual expression: namely, in a monogamous marriage between a man and a woman.

2) Therefore, we as SideB people do not seek out sexual relationships with same-sex partners. Instead, those of us who are gay/bisexual and SideB choose paths of singleness/celibacy, or committed friendships/relationships that do not involve sexual activity between same-sex partners.

3) We believe that simply experiencing same-sex attraction (e.g. having a homosexual or bisexual orientation) is NOT inherently sinful, and that efforts to become heterosexual are NOT required to live a life that is pleasing to God."

Never heard of this group, certainly interesting. Would we welcome someone in SideB here? I know I would.

[Freespirited]

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

Not sure if you're referring to sins in general or "the sin of homosexuality" in particular.

I am referring to the sin of being a homosexual!! do you feel your sexual self is that of a sinner whatever your sexual preference is?

(2) If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

Sexual orientation is part of being. Even if you don't act on it, it is still part of being.

It is true that sex is a part of your being, but you must act sexually, lust, or sexually desire someone in order to truly feel a connection with whatever sexual preference you identify with!! God values those who are pure at heart and not how sexually active one is, versus those who seemingly live a saintly or celibate life to the outside world, but inside hides a very tormented and obscure person.

(3) Does celibacy help a person purify their sinful human nature?

No

I agree too!!

(4) How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

It would give you more time to serve God and to be with God and serve others. Having a partner is very time consuming.

Funny you said that! but if a heterosexual couple have sex aren't they braking the rule of celibacy? how different is it if two homosexuals share the same level of physical intimacy out of love for each other? aren't they all sharing and serving God's golden rule of love equally!? or is love making only exclusive to heterosexuals? isn't long term relationships of any sexual orientation a spiritual shared time with God and others at the same time!? do you think that being alone is NOT time consuming?? try asking any single and lonely people how time consuming it is to spend countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves!!! there is no worse time consumed then wasting years of your life without ever having loved someone totally!!


Leandro

[antonyh]

My replies in italics

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

Not sure if you're referring to sins in general or "the sin of homosexuality" in particular.

I am referring to the sin of being a homosexual!! do you feel your sexual being is a sin whatever your sexual preference is?

No, there is nothing sinful about sexual orientation.

If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

Sexual orientation is part of being. Even if you don't act on it, it is still part of being.

It is true that sex is a part of your being, but you must act sexually, lust, or sexually desire someone in order to truly feel a connection with whatever sexual preference you identify with!!

True

God values those who are pure at heart and not how sexually active one is, versus those who seemingly live a saintly or celibate life to the outside world, but inside hides a very tormented and obscure person.

You're creating two dualisms. You're disconnecting a "pure heart" from "how sexually active you are". Our heart and sexuality intermix. You're also creating a dualism between "a saintly or celibate life" and happiness.

I would say that you may or may not have a pure heart when sexually active or you may have a celibate life and be either happy or tormented. The dualisms you've suggested don't map reality very accurately.

(3) Does celibacy help a person purify their sinful human nature?

No

I agree too!!

I don't believe people have a sinful nature. That is for another discussion.

How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

It would give you more time to serve God and to be with God and serve others. Having a partner is very time consuming.

Funny you said that! but if a heterosexual couple have sex aren't they braking the rule of celibacy? how different is it if two homosexuals share the same level of physical intimacy out of love for each other? aren't they all sharing and serving God's golden rule of love equally!? or is love making only exclusive to heterosexuals? isn't long term relationships of any sexual orientation a spiritual shared time with God and others at the same time!? do you think that being alone is NOT time consuming?? try asking any single and lonely people how time consuming it is to spend countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves!!! there is no worse time consumed then wasting years of your life without ever having loved someone totally!!

I strenuously disagree...single people are every bit as spiritual as couples. There are many examples of people who have lived fulfilling, intimate, satisfying lives without a partner. Mother Theresa comes to mind. Henry Nouwen. Thomas Merton (funny...they are all Catholic).

Just to inject some humor. Many partnered people would die for a few countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves.

[BrentRichards]

My replies in red ... coming from the perspective of someone who would have identified with side B for many years.

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

Not sure if you're referring to sins in general or "the sin of homosexuality" in particular.

I am referring to the sin of being a homosexual!! do you feel your sexual being is a sin whatever your sexual preference is?

No, there is nothing sinful about sexual orientation.

I'd say most would agree that there is nothing sinful about being homosexual, but trying to separate your identity from the prohibition to act on who you are is more than a little tricky ... I'd say I always felt a sub-terranean guilt about my sexuality, acting on it or no. And, I clearly thought that my choice of abstinence was better than another's choice to embrace their sexuality. Can't say that's how all side B people think, it was how I thought.

If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

Sexual orientation is part of being. Even if you don't act on it, it is still part of being.

It is true that sex is a part of your being, but you must act sexually, lust, or sexually desire someone in order to truly feel a connection with whatever sexual preference you identify with!!

True


This is tricky, yes ... I never had to act on my homosexuality to know it was there. Publically, however, I did NOT identify with a sexual identity. My thought was "why create that kind of chaos in my life over who I'm NOT sleeping with?" Healthy? No. This also reminds me of a book by Jeff Konrad (not his real name, I gather) called "You Don't Have To Be Gay" (Don't read it, it will just piss you off) ... Konrad isn't really an advocate of reparative therapy or anything, but definately of celibacy ... he describes himself as a "non-gay homosexual" ... homosexuality being the orientation, and gay being the choice to embrace it (my words, not his ... he says gay is the "lifestyle" ... grrr). Sadly, I identified myself with that term for a long time.


(3) Does celibacy help a person purify their sinful human nature?

No

I agree too!!

I don't believe people have a sinful nature. That is for another discussion.

No. I speak as an evangelical Christian here, and I do believe in a sinful nature ... we have both the potential for great good and great evil inherent in us. Neither celibacy nor any other sacrifice or good work can do anything to purify our nature. Only God's grace can do that.

How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

It would give you more time to serve God and to be with God and serve others. Having a partner is very time consuming.

Funny you said that! but if a heterosexual couple have sex aren't they braking the rule of celibacy? how different is it if two homosexuals share the same level of physical intimacy out of love for each other? aren't they all sharing and serving God's golden rule of love equally!? or is love making only exclusive to heterosexuals? isn't long term relationships of any sexual orientation a spiritual shared time with God and others at the same time!? do you think that being alone is NOT time consuming?? try asking any single and lonely people how time consuming it is to spend countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves!!! there is no worse time consumed then wasting years of your life without ever having loved someone totally!!

I strenuously disagree...single people are every bit as spiritual as couples. There are many examples of people who have lived fulfilling, intimate, satisfying lives without a partner. Mother Theresa comes to mind. Henry Nouwen. Thomas Merton (funny...they are all Catholic).

Just to inject some humor. Many partnered people would die for a few countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves.

U-Dog, you'll be proud of me here: I think celibacy can ONLY bring you closer to God when you're living it as a charism, not as an enforced state or an attempt to "impress" God or others with your righteousness. Henry Nouwen is mentioned above, and he actually wrote what I think is one of the best things ever written on the celibate life, a book called Clowning In Rome. There is NOTHING inherently superior about a celibate life, nor is there any reason to think that a celibate person is, for that reason, closer to God.

[/QUOTE]

[BrentRichards]

Double posted ... ignore this one.

[antonyh]

My replies in blue ...

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

Not sure if you're referring to sins in general or "the sin of homosexuality" in particular.

I am referring to the sin of being a homosexual!! do you feel your sexual being is a sin whatever your sexual preference is?

No, there is nothing sinful about sexual orientation.

I'd say most would agree that there is nothing sinful about being homosexual, but trying to separate your identity from the prohibition to act on who you are is more than a little tricky ... I'd say I always felt a sub-terranean guilt about my sexuality, acting on it or no. And, I clearly thought that my choice of abstinence was better than another's choice to embrace their sexuality. Can't say that's how all side B people think, it was how I thought.

Profound observation: "Trying to separate your identity from the prohibition to act on who you are is more than a little tricky." I am not sure how you do that.


If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

Sexual orientation is part of being. Even if you don't act on it, it is still part of being.

It is true that sex is a part of your being, but you must act sexually, lust, or sexually desire someone in order to truly feel a connection with whatever sexual preference you identify with!!

True

This is tricky, yes ... I never had to act on my homosexuality to know it was there. Publically, however, I did NOT identify with a sexual identity. My thought was "why create that kind of chaos in my life over who I'm NOT sleeping with?" Healthy? No. This also reminds me of a book by Jeff Konrad (not his real name, I gather) called "You Don't Have To Be Gay" (Don't read it, it will just piss you off) ... Konrad isn't really an advocate of reparative therapy or anything, but definately of celibacy ... he describes himself as a "non-gay homosexual" ... homosexuality being the orientation, and gay being the choice to embrace it (my words, not his ... he says gay is the "lifestyle" ... grrr). Sadly, I identified myself with that term for a long time.

(3) Does celibacy help a person purify their sinful human nature?

No

I agree too!!

I don't believe people have a sinful nature. That is for another discussion.

No. I speak as an evangelical Christian here, and I do believe in a sinful nature ... we have both the potential for great good and great evil inherent in us. Neither celibacy nor any other sacrifice or good work can do anything to purify our nature. Only God's grace can do that.

I take a more Buddhist approach. Our identification with the mind and it's irrationality is the source of evil. Identification with the mind obscures clear interaction with our true nature which is not evil. This is a whole conversation all by itself.


How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

It would give you more time to serve God and to be with God and serve others. Having a partner is very time consuming.

Funny you said that! but if a heterosexual couple have sex aren't they braking the rule of celibacy? how different is it if two homosexuals share the same level of physical intimacy out of love for each other? aren't they all sharing and serving God's golden rule of love equally!? or is love making only exclusive to heterosexuals? isn't long term relationships of any sexual orientation a spiritual shared time with God and others at the same time!? do you think that being alone is NOT time consuming?? try asking any single and lonely people how time consuming it is to spend countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves!!! there is no worse time consumed then wasting years of your life without ever having loved someone totally!!

I strenuously disagree...single people are every bit as spiritual as couples. There are many examples of people who have lived fulfilling, intimate, satisfying lives without a partner. Mother Theresa comes to mind. Henry Nouwen. Thomas Merton (funny...they are all Catholic).

Just to inject some humor. Many partnered people would die for a few countless nights, weekends, months, vacations, seasons, holidays, and years all by themselves.

U-Dog, you'll be proud of me here: I think celibacy can ONLY bring you closer to God when you're living it as a charism, not as an enforced state or an attempt to "impress" God or others with your righteousness. Henry Nouwen is mentioned above, and he actually wrote what I think is one of the best things ever written on the celibate life, a book called Clowning In Rome. There is NOTHING inherently superior about a celibate life, nor is there any reason to think that a celibate person is, for that reason, closer to God.


I have never read Clowning In Rome. My favorite book by Nouwen is Reaching Out: Three Movements of the Spiritual Life.

[tdogg]

I can see everyone's points here. I could see someone being celibate because of a choice (for whatever reason/s) and I could see a person being celibate because they feel called by God to be celibate. I don't think we can invalidate anyone being celibate whether by choice or calling. A person could have a valid reason or reasons for remaining celibate and if it's that person's choice, I believe God will bless them for it. Sometimes we take on too much responsibility when we could definitely leave some things for God to handle...

...like, the matter of accountability. Background - I consider myself a Christian, gay, woman (well I AM a woman, not just consider it!). By all means and purposes my spiritual beliefs lie in the teachings of Jesus and that he is my savior. They may not exactly coincide with specific beliefs of heaven, hell, sin, damnation or any of that, but I definitely feel that I have a spiritual relationship with Jesus and Jesus is a spiritual being. Ok.

Point. I DO NOT believe that any person is accountable to another person for 'sin'. Gosh, isn't that how we are in the place we are in anyway? Once you start getting people involved, people have to define 'sin', determine the state of another person's heart, and determine if according to their definition another person is sinning, and then take it upon themselves act. All this on what another person is doing. Wow, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a full time job for myself, and I consider myself a fairly decent and mild person without a lot of drama. To have accountability for other people I know (even limited to those I consider "christian"), well, I DON'T have time for that!

For my performance at work, yes if I want to stay there, I grant my employer to hold me accountable. For those to whom I owe money, I also grant my permission for them to hold me accountable (I signed papers doing that). For my life partner, when I committed to be with her, I passed along some authority to hold me accountable for my statements and actions.

In respect to another, including someone I would consider a Christian, sorry, I don't give permission for them to hold me accountable for anything. That alone is a priviledge/responsibilty I give to God.

Sorry...but I really do have HUGE issues when someone brings up 'accountability'.

[Montanna]

I agree with that tdogg !!!!! Very well put. Montanna :)

[antonyh]

Point. I DO NOT believe that any person is accountable to another person for 'sin'. Gosh, isn't that how we are in the place we are in anyway? Once you start getting people involved, people have to define 'sin', determine the state of another person's heart, and determine if according to their definition another person is sinning, and then take it upon themselves act. All this on what another person is doing. Wow, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a full time job for myself, and I consider myself a fairly decent and mild person without a lot of drama. To have accountability for other people I know (even limited to those I consider "christian"), well, I DON'T have time for that!


I like your perspective. Unfortunately, social control is a big agenda of the Evangelical church.

[tdogg]

I like your perspective. Unfortunately, social control is a big agenda of the Evangelical church.

That's the problem, they are so busy trying to control everyone else, they have no time to actually DO any LOVING work for God. :(

Thanks Montanna! ;)

[scott snedeker]

As pagans we connect to God with sex.

For us celibacy is disconnection from God

Not a sin, just sad and empty.

I don't want sex when I am overwhelmed and depressed.

This is also when my connection to my inner being is the weakest

[kara speltz]

I can see everyone's points here. I could see someone being celibate because of a choice (for whatever reason/s) and I could see a person being celibate because they feel called by God to be celibate. I don't think we can invalidate anyone being celibate whether by choice or calling. A person could have a valid reason or reasons for remaining celibate and if it's that person's choice, I believe God will bless them for it. Sometimes we take on too much responsibility when we could definitely leave some things for God to handle...

...like, the matter of accountability. Background - I consider myself a Christian, gay, woman (well I AM a woman, not just consider it!). By all means and purposes my spiritual beliefs lie in the teachings of Jesus and that he is my savior. They may not exactly coincide with specific beliefs of heaven, hell, sin, damnation or any of that, but I definitely feel that I have a spiritual relationship with Jesus and Jesus is a spiritual being. Ok.

Point. I DO NOT believe that any person is accountable to another person for 'sin'. Gosh, isn't that how we are in the place we are in anyway? Once you start getting people involved, people have to define 'sin', determine the state of another person's heart, and determine if according to their definition another person is sinning, and then take it upon themselves act. All this on what another person is doing. Wow, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a full time job for myself, and I consider myself a fairly decent and mild person without a lot of drama. To have accountability for other people I know (even limited to those I consider "christian"), well, I DON'T have time for that! .

I absolutely agree with you. My personal definition of sin is anything that separates us from God and one another. And as I see it, ensuring that my own life is a reflection of God's light in the world, is a full time job. Wasn't that what Jesus meant when he said, remove the plank from your own eye?

kara

[Daniel]

My thoughts....

The questions we should all be asking is:

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

There was a time in my life when I was celibate. I should note, however, that this was motivated out of fear rather than love (and some degree of ignorance...remember safer sex and the terrible '80's?) That said, there was a time before that, when I wasn't out yet, that I thought that somehow, if I didn't act on being gay that I might be - to use your words- forgiven. It took me a while to get it through my head that there was nothing to be forgiven for. ;)

(2) If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

The water doesn't go away from the source just because you've turned off the faucet.

(3) Does celibacy helps a person purify their sinful human nature?

Hell no. :lol: And I- for one- am not sold on this siinful nature point of view. Rather, I observe that we make mistakes in life. But being born into sin isn't one of them.

(4) How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God". With that in mind, the idea that we can be closer to that which has not left us is antithetical. That said, there are trantrics who maintain that sexual energy can be transmuted via spiritual practice. I doubt, however, that this is being engaged in by your average gay person who is having troulble with their sexuality. It takes a certain maturity to take that path. Maturity which is lacking in those who are motivated out of fear rather than love.

[Freespirited]

The questions we should all be asking is:

(1) Do celibate gays consider themselves more likely to be forgiven by God for their sins then other sexually active gay men??

There was a time in my life when I was celibate. I should note, however, that this was motivated out of fear rather than love (and some degree of ignorance...remember safer sex and the terrible '80's?) That said, there was a time before that, when I wasn't out yet, that I thought that somehow, if I didn't act on being gay that I might be - to use your words- forgiven. It took me a while to get it through my head that there was nothing to be forgiven for.

(2) If by definition a person who consider themselves straight, gay, or bisexual is mostly due to their sexual attraction towards someone, then why does a person who chooses to live a celibate life identify with a sexual identity???

The water doesn't go away from the source just
because you've turned off the faucet.

(3) Does celibacy helps a person purify their sinful human nature?

Hell no. And I- for one- am not sold on this siinful nature point of view. Rather, I observe that we make mistakes in life. But being born into sin isn't one of them.

(4) How does living a celibate life makes a person closer to God?

"Nothing shall separate us from the love of God". With that in mind, the idea that we can be closer to that which has not left us is antithetical. That said, there are trantrics who maintain that sexual energy can be transmuted via spiritual practice. I doubt, however, that this is being engaged in by your average gay person who is having troulble with their sexuality. It takes a certain maturity to take that path. Maturity which is lacking in those who are motivated out of fear rather than love.
My thoughts....

Dear Daniel I was looking forward to your response!

I appreciate your level of sincerity and frankness,

as well as your confidence, acceptance, and the

self love shared in all of your comments in regards

to homosexuality!!


Thank you so very much!! :applause:


LEANDRO