Gee.. thanks, Soulforce

[Drizzt]

Hi guys, I'm a student in Cornerstone University, where a bunch of you Equality Riders came and hung around just outside our campus for one day (then came to our Chapel the next morning)

Cutting to the chase, I'd like to know how on earth you guys manage to justify homosexuality even through these verses

"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out ot us so we ocan have sex with them."
Genesis 19:4-5

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer punishment of eternal fire"
Jude 7



"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion"
Romans 1:26-27


I do agree that we shouldn't discriminate based on sexuality, but I find no reason to think homosexuality isn't an act of sin.

I also think that Cornerstone was right to keep you guys out. Not because of your sexual orientation, but because you were trying to use the university as a means to spread your message. Cornerstone doesn't agree with you, so they're not about to let you go around preaching on its campus. Here's some scripture to back up their actions...


"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."
2 John 9

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who brought them--bringing switch destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their desctruction has not been sleeping."
2 Peter 2:1-3


If you're being opressed, it's not because you're gay, it's because you're not preaching the right message.

[andrewlittle]

I guess I'm not as good at writing fiction and twisting God's word into unrecognizable B.S. as you are.

Can I ask what version of the scriptures you're quoting from, because it in no way at all lines up with my Bible? It's like you pulled it all from your own a... Well, never mind. That would be insulting, and I wouldn't want to insult such a simple-minded, ignorant jack-ass.

[kara speltz]

Hi guys, I'm a student in Cornerstone University, where a bunch of you Equality Riders came and hung around just outside our campus for one day (then came to our Chapel the next morning)

Cutting to the chase, I'd like to know how on earth you guys manage to justify homosexuality even through these verses

"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out ot us so we ocan have sex with them."
Genesis 19:4-5

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer punishment of eternal fire"
Jude 7



"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion"
Romans 1:26-27


I do agree that we shouldn't discriminate based on sexuality, but I find no reason to think homosexuality isn't an act of sin. (Don't give me that "it's too old in the OT" reply, because it was reaffirmed in the NT)
I also think that Cornerstone was right to keep you guys out. Not because of your sexual orientation, but because you were trying to use the university as a means to spread your message. Cornerstone doesn't agree with you, so they're not about to let you go around preaching on its campus. I even have scripture to back Cornerstone up


"Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work."
2 John 9

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who brought them--bringing switch destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their desctruction has not been sleeping."
2 Peter 2:1-3


If you're being opressed, it's not because you're gay, it's because you're not preaching the right message.

Well Drizz: First and foremost, I'm grateful that you and the rest of the theocrats are not as yet fully in control of our government. We have a constitution and it is that which is supposed to govern our society, NOT the bible.

It appears you're here on our forum to lord your self rightous beliefs in heterosexual superiority over the rest of us. But I'm praying that some where the Love of God can get through to the hard hardedness you express
and so I'm suggesting that you stop your offensive rant against your brothers and sisters and read the pamphlet, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality."
Jesus had much to say about the Pharasees who's lives were governed by the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law. You are a child of God and because of that, I do believe that you have the capacity for compassion and it is for that, which I pray.

Kara

[Drizzt]

I guess I'm not as good at writing fiction and twisting God's word into unrecognizable B.S. as you are.

Can I ask what version of the scriptures you're quoting from, because it in no way at all lines up with my Bible? It's like you pulled it all from your own a... Well, never mind. That would be insulting, and I wouldn't want to insult such a simple-minded, ignorant jack-ass.

Oh wow, and I was just asked that I should tone down my words

I'm quoting from the NIV, but if you'd like, I'll quote from another version of the bible.


As for Kara, I just read the pamphet, and I don't agree with him. He acts like their homosexuality is a result of their sin, and is not what Paul is disgusted at. It's pretty obvious, to me at least, that Paul is quite disgusted partly because of their actions. They have indecent acts.

[kara speltz]

[QUOTE=Drizzt;26901]

As for Kara, I just read the pamphet, and I don't agree with him. He acts like their homosexuality is a result of their sin, and is not what Paul is disgusted at. It's pretty obvious, to me at least, that Paul is quite disgusted partly because of their actions. They have indecent acts./[QUOTE]

Wow, you have an amazing capacity to twist things, my friend. Rev Mel White is a Doctor of Theology, first of all. And secondly you totally misconstrued (probably deliberately, I suspect) what that pamphlet says. Homosexuality IS NOT A SIN. It is part of God's divine plan. Your bigotry on the other hand is a sin, which I hope you'll repent of. You're seriously treading on very thin ice, here with your antigay BS.

kara

[u-dog]

SO Mods? I think this is one them what oughta be tossed out on their keester. Whadda you think?

Brothers and sisters, can I suggest that we leave this one alone? If you handle manure it tends to get all over your hands. I don't see how anyones dignity will remain intact if we interact with this sort of person.

[nmwolfboy]

Wow, Drizzt, quite an entry onto the SF boards! :eek: :lol:

i'm curious - when the Equality Riders visited Cornerstone, did you personally engage in any dialogue with any of them?

If you're being opressed, it's not because you're gay, it's because you're not preaching the right message.

First off, there's no "if" about glbt people being denied some of the basic rights that are due to all humanity. It's a fact, like it or not.

And while i generally avoid proof-texting from the Bible, how's this for a message:

God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgement, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us. Those who say, ‘I love God’, and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen. The commandment we have from him is this: those who love God must love their brothers and sisters also. 1 John 4:16-21

That's a pretty clear message that i hope we all can find agreement with.

Pax :dove:
scott

[Drizzt]

Just because Mel White has a doctorate, it doesn't mean I should agree with him. Maybe I should quote all the doctorates out there that do say homosexuality is a sin?

Maybe instead of outright insulting me, you should tell me what exactly I'm twisting. I'm quoting straight from the bible.

"Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones."

Jesus had much to say about the Pharasees who's lives were governed by the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law. You are a child of God and because of that, I do believe that you have the capacity for compassion and it is for that, which I pray.

Pharisees were very artificial people who were more concerned with their image than actually following God, not because they followed the law very strictly.



I am not trying to oppress homosexuals, but show that homosexuality is a sin.

[Drizzt]

i'm curious - when the Equality Riders visited Cornerstone, did you personally engage in any dialogue with any of them?


No, because I had a relatively busy day. However, I'm talking to you guys now.


It suprises me that you guys aren't willing to recieve me on your forums when you're expecting Cornerstone and every other christian college to recieve you guys on their campuses.

That's a pretty clear message that i hope we all can find agreement with.

Sure is. Not only that, we should love EVERYBODY. I don't hate you guys, I just think you're wrong.

[u-dog]

a person comes to these forums with the same respectfulness that Soulforce came to cornerstone and other colleges we DO recieve them. People who walk in and start swinging? Not so much.


Respect Your Fellow MembersThe Soulforce Community includes people with diverse backgrounds, life journeys, and religious beliefs. It is a given that there will be differences of opinion.

Due to the medium of forums, we cannot physically see the faces or hear the voices of fellow members. When expressing disagreement, always remember that you are talking to a real human being. Show respect and use emotion icons if you think someone might take something you say offensively.

Inappropriate Content
The following content is not allowed on the Soulforce Forums:

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We welcome people who are on the journey to understanding and accepting gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. However obvious anti-gay comments will not be allowed in the public forums. Such comments are not merely opinions, but rather a way to demean and oppress GLBT people. Any posts deemed by the Soulforce staff to be anti-gay will be removed. First time offenders will always receive a warning via private message. Repeat offenders will lose both their right to post messages on any of the Soulforce Public Forums and also their right to send private messages to other members.
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[Daniel]

Hey folks. This is a message to myself and to anyone else who wants to listen.

It's getting pretty testy, hot and downright violent around here. And we're the people who believe in nonviolence, right?

I've posted my share a snippy and tart 'insights' lately- I'm sure you can find them easily. Just look at how I've been responding to simpleman for instance. But you know what? Meeting violence with violence goes nowhere, though I know it feels good in the moment. That feel good feeling has a sour aftertaste though.

And you know what? The poster on this thread who is making everyone's temperature climb through the roof is just another misinformed person. We go after the misinformation, right? Not the person.

I'm a real fuck-up (haven't yet written that word before -as far as I can remember- on these boards) when it comes to the methods of nonviolence.

But a friend here has reminded me of one thing: avoid posting when you are angry and pissed off.

Yeah....it's hard when the blood gets boiling and the fingers get ichy...but this cyberspace sanctuary is still going to be here after one gets a grip.

[BrentRichards]

Here's a general principle I learned in my years of Campus ministry (with Campus Crusade for Christ, if anyone is keeping score) ... when you begin an evangelistic conversation with "You're an idiot!" ... you've also ended it. Nobody is interested in what you have to say when you open the conversation with insults and attacks.

Too many times, what some Christians think is "evangelism" does more to slake the conscience of the "evangelist" than it does to touch the heart of the hearer. And no, it's not just "the offense of the cross" ... it's the offensiveness of the speaker --and those aren't the same thing.

The prophet said of Messiah (Isa. 42, quoted in Matt. 12) "He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory."

Make no mistake, if you are not welcomed here, it is because of your METHOD, not your MESSAGE. Don't try to tell yourself otherwise.

[BrentRichards]

Hey folks. This is a message to myself and to anyone else who wants to listen.

It's getting pretty testy, hot and downright violent around here. And we're the people who believe in nonviolence, right?

I've posted my share a snippy and tart 'insights' lately- I'm sure you can find them easily. Just look at how I've been responding to simpleman for instance. But you know what? Meeting violence with violence goes nowhere, though I know it feels good in the moment. That feel good feeling has a sour aftertaste though.

And you know what? The poster on this thread who is making everyone's temperature climb through the roof is just another misinformed person. We go after the misinformation, right? Not the person.

I'm a real fuck-up (haven't yet written that word before -as far as I can remember- on these boards) when it comes to the methods of nonviolence.

But a friend here has reminded me of one thing: avoid posting when you are angry and pissed off.

Yeah....it's hard when the blood gets boiling and the fingers get ichy...but this cyberspace sanctuary is still going to be here after one gets a grip.

Well-said, Daniel. "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." (Proverbs 15:1)

[hillsong2010]

i have a question that one of my friends brought up in dialogue that we had at my school Cornerstone!! but yeah she brought up this scripture.....

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

the context of this scripture is when paul addresses the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols which is not a sin but if it causes others to sin than it is a sin....

so my friend had asked one group member amy, if you go around telling people it is ok to be homosexual when they feel that in their hearts it is wrong, you are persuading them sin because paul had said that we should not cause our brothers and sisters to go against their hearts and what they feel as sin in their hearts....

is their conviction when you persuade others to go against what their hearts are telling them not to do?

[BrentRichards]

i have a question that one of my friends brought up in dialogue that we had at my school Cornerstone!! but yeah she brought up this scripture.....

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

the context of this scripture is when paul addresses the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols which is not a sin but if it causes others to sin than it is a sin....

so my friend had asked one group member amy, if you go around telling people it is ok to be homosexual when they feel that in their hearts it is wrong, you are persuading them sin because paul had said that we should not cause our brothers and sisters to go against their hearts and what they feel as sin in their hearts....

is their conviction when you persuade others to go against what their hearts are telling them not to do?

This is a legitimate question, but it should have it's own thread, in my opinion ... can I take the liberty of creating one for it?

[Daniel]

I am not trying to oppress homosexuals, but show that homosexuality is a sin.

Let's try looking at this from another viewpoint, shall we?

"I am not trying to oppress black people, but show that black people are inferior."

"I am not trying to oppress jews, but show that jews sin against God because they refuse to recongnize that Jesus is their Lord and Savior."

"I am not trying to oppress women, but show that they sin when they take positions rightly accorded to men."

It's very easy to see another person's so called sin. I all depends on one's point of view.

Love and compassion see things very differently however.

[u-dog]

I have officially taken a deep breath and counted to ten.

[hillsong2010]

yes you may

[Drizzt]

Make no mistake, if you are not welcomed here, it is because of your METHOD, not your MESSAGE. Don't try to tell yourself otherwise.

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.

[Drizzt]

"I am not trying to oppress black people, but show that black people are inferior."

Let me continue that. "Black people are inferior, therefore we have the right to discriminate against them"

Which is different from my argument. Homosexuality is a sin, but we shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

[BrentRichards]

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.

"I want to tell you guys that you're wrong." and "I'm here for discussion" don't go together my friend. That's exactly my point ... your METHOD, not your MESSAGE, is the reason this is my last comment on this topic ... but if you can equate "blatant and blunt" with doing your Christian duty, go ahead and sleep well tonight. I will.

[keltic63]

a person comes to these forums with the same respectfulness that Soulforce came to cornerstone and other colleges we DO recieve them. People who walk in and start swinging? Not so much.

Drizzt has been advised of the guidelines and by joining the forums agreed to abide by those rules.

[Drizzt]

"I want to tell you guys that you're wrong." and "I'm here for discussion" don't go together my friend. That's exactly my point ... your METHOD, not your MESSAGE, is the reason this is my last comment on this topic ... but if you can equate "blatant and blunt" with doing your Christian duty, go ahead and sleep well tonight. I will.

Nothing wrong with being blunt. Jesus pissed off a lot of people too, because he came to tell people they were wrong.

[u-dog]

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.


Drizzt ???!!! ! Come on!!

Salvation through homosexuality? Who could possibly justify that??

those of us who are Christians believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. period. paragraph.

We believe that homosexuality is irrelevant to Salvation. as irrelevant as eye-color and brain hemisphere dominance.


and just a gentle reminder Drizzt: you're not Jesus

[Daniel]

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.

Want to last here longer than two seconds? Want to actually be listened to? Then please mind your manners.

It is bad bad manners to assert that "I want to tell you guys that you're wrong." We can read: we got that loud and clear from your FIRST post. You don't have to raise your voice and repeat yourself ad infinitum. That won't get you anywhere. Ok?

As Oscar Wilde said:

Manners before Morals

[BrentRichards]

Jesus pissed off a lot of people too, because he came to tell people they were wrong.

I promised to butt out of this conversation, but Wow! If that's your understanding of why Jesus came, I'm terribly sorry for you.

[davidb]

Forgive me, but I'm counting to ten and it's not helping...

First of all, these threads are posted in a forum called "Faith and Nonviolence."

Mr. Drizzt, you may think that you are doing a loving thing by calling us sinners here to repentance, but what you are doing is bashing us with your 40-pound bible. I feel violated by your message.

Just so you know I spent 25 years in the mind-fuck that is the GARBC, and it is no surprise that I cannot tolerate you people for more than a few minutes at a time.

To come here, in the forum for faith and non-violence, and to attempt to tell us who we are in God's eyes is completely insulting, and the opposite of what Christ would do. Learn to have some respect for people who believe differently from you. Take five minutes to try to listen to people here, before you inform them of their eternal destination, and stop trying to shove your narrow-minded, patriarchial, theological clap-trap on us.

These kind of debates accomplish nothing, I find your tone and words to be extremely insulting.

[kara speltz]

Nothing wrong with being blunt. Jesus pissed off a lot of people too, because he came to tell people they were wrong.

I'm with you Brent, talk about making Jesus absolutely meaningless. Drizz your faith, in my opinion, is really pathetic. You don't even know who this Jesus person was. He was forever being criticized for hanging with the margenalized. Time and time again, Jesus told us what his life was about - it was about LOVE.

Jesus tells us in Mathew how we will be judged and it has nothing to do with our sexuality. Have we fed the hungry? Clothed the naked? Visited the sick and imprisoned? That's the criteria. I have never understood how it is that the Christian church has gotten so hung up in this litmus test of sexuality, when Jesus pretty much didn't even speak about it.

Get a life Drizz! Have you even read the Sermon on the Mount? Do you understand it at all? How do you measure up? Or are you so busy, judging others that you have no time to pay attention to following in the carpenter's footsteps?

kara

[u-dog]

How do you REALLY feel? :)

[Joe Brummer]

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.


You have already made up your mind so what is there to discuss? You think you are right and that is that.

I am not a Chrisitan, but I do follow in the footsteps of Christ's message. I also follow the message of Gandhi. Gandhi believed that each of us holds a piece of the truth and the untruth. If we tear away the untruths all you are left with is the truth. In order to find the untruth and the truth, you have to listen and respect each others beliefs. I don't see much of that going on here.

If I were you, Drizzt and you truly wanted a "Discussion" put you dukes down. You won't get far with anyone with your fists in the air.

Words can be just like fists when used just right. Here are my suggestions to you from the view of nonviolence:

Ask questions, but ask out of curiousity not tricks! Ask because yoiu truly want to know, and will respect the answer may not be what you expected.

Make statements that reaffirm you understand someone else's point of view, then you can talk about contradictions, but I see you just trying to prove people wrong, that isn't a discussion, it is mental anguish. Others may hold a different view of the bible than you, it doesn't mean they are wrong anymore than you are.

And most importantly, as the Buddha wrote, If you think you are right...check again!

This post should perhaps be closed, then reopened with a fresh start so that groundwork can be laid out for a peaceful discussion rather than a prove me wrong battle.

[Daniel]

Nothing wrong with being blunt. Jesus pissed off a lot of people too, because he came to tell people they were wrong.

Did he? I wonder about that. Sure. I get the whole temple thing and all that. But to use that story as an excuse (and it often used as an exuse for one's own judgmentalism), isn't only unethical, it goes against the message of Christ, which was what? Oh yeah. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

How about we use our imaginations a bit and posit what Jesus was trying to do by thinking about what the story of the Temple means rather than the actions in it?

How about thinking about the Temple story as a what Jesus was advocating for, rather than against?

We are fools if, when pointing to the moon with our fingers, mistake our fingers for the moon.

[Joe Brummer]

Nothing wrong with being blunt. Jesus pissed off a lot of people too, because he came to tell people they were wrong.

Ps, Drizzt....just an observation....if you are here for the discussion, it won't go well if you piss people off. Take deep breaths, your salvation is not dependent on ours. We can and will disagree, but no one need be pissed off by disagreements.


Remember: The object is not to bring someone to their knees, it is to bring them to their senses. (Gandhi)

[andrewlittle]

It didn't help much.

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.

So, evidently you justify salvation through heterosexuality. Damn, I wish that were true - I'd be home free. I wouldn't have to worry about what Jesus said it takes to be a disciple. I wouldn't have to worry about loving my neighbor - or the really tough part right now, loving the unlovable.

Let me continue that. "Black people are inferior, therefore we have the right to discriminate against them"

Which is different from my argument. Homosexuality is a sin, but we shouldn't discriminate against homosexuals.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah go. You conveniently didn't quote Isaiah 1:10-31, 3:8-17, Jer 23:14-40, Eze 16:46-63, Zep 2:9-15 which all discuss their sins. Their sexual sins of trying to rape the angels, to dehumanize them, was just part and parcel of their love of power and abuse of the innocent.

If you would actually read passages in context - as part of a whole instead of in little soundbytes, you would, of course, know what the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah were. But then you'd have to find other fabrications to justify your claim that some of God's children - people whom God created - were worthless sinners by God's design.

I'll let you wrestle with God on your day of reckoning - I'm pretty damn comfortable that my sins are forgiven by God, and my salvation assured by my faith in Jesus Christ - not the fact that I sleep with my wife.

[Alecto]

I'm here for discussion. I want to find out how you justify salvation through homosexuality, and I want to tell you guys that you're wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile, but only to be extremely blatant and blunt.

That's not really discussion; that's monologue with interruptions. I will first remind you that the people on these forums come from EVERYWHERE (for example, you're here with a name, and you were not an Equality Rider). As such, we are all at...varying points in our views even just on nonviolence. Overall things try to be kept respectful, but many of the people here have no official connection to soulforce. And, when you come in swinging, as someone said (with a clearly sarcastic post title, even, that I'm SURE you knew would be a less-than-respectful way to start a dialogue), then yes. You're going to get people who will bite, and who will swing back. Normally I'd be one of those people, but I make a point not to here, out of respect for the vision of soulforce.

I'm not going to get into your original question, because I don't believe I'm the correct person to be answering scripture; I'm not Christian and the Christian scripture has no meaning to me. I live in a country where my freedom from that Scripture is protected, and that's good enough for me.

[keltic63]

I'm gonna let everyone cool down, take a breath, and relax.

We'll review this tomorrow and make a decision about reopening this thread.


keltic, moderator