question on causing a brother/sister to stumble

[hillsong2010]

i have a question that one of my friends brought up in dialogue that we had at my school Cornerstone!! but yeah she brought up this scripture.....

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

the context of this scripture is when paul addresses the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols which is not a sin but if it causes others to sin than it is a sin....

so my friend had asked one group member amy, if you go around telling people it is ok to be homosexual when they feel that in their hearts it is wrong, you are persuading them sin because paul had said that we should not cause our brothers and sisters to go against their hearts and what they feel as sin in their hearts....

is their conviction when you persuade others to go against what their hearts are telling them not to do?

[u-dog]

so my friend had asked one group member amy, if you go around telling people it is ok to be homosexual when they feel that in their hearts it is wrong, you are persuading them sin because paul had said that we should not cause our brothers and sisters to go against their hearts and what they feel as sin in their hearts....

If an open and self-affirming gay person were trying to convince a NON-self-affirming gay person to have sex, then I would say "yes" that would be putting a stumbling block in front of the friend in the sense that Paul means that.

However, asking the person to reconsider whether their sexuality or acting upon their sexuality is IN FACT a sin, is NOT a putting a stumbling block. Its just theological discourse. Asking a group of people to consider the damage that their beliefs are doing to others is not placing a stumbling block either, IMHO

[hillsong2010]

ok here is another question...

how do you reconsile the argument of sodom and gomorrah.. i have heard that it God did not destroy it for homosexuality...but rather for inhospitality... where does that come from??? also from the scriptures that clearly state not lie with a male as a male??? what do you say when you are in that argument?? how can you reconsile that? i don't understand

[kara speltz]

i have a question that one of my friends brought up in dialogue that we had at my school Cornerstone!! but yeah she brought up this scripture.....

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

the context of this scripture is when paul addresses the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols which is not a sin but if it causes others to sin than it is a sin....

so my friend had asked one group member amy, if you go around telling people it is ok to be homosexual when they feel that in their hearts it is wrong, you are persuading them sin because paul had said that we should not cause our brothers and sisters to go against their hearts and what they feel as sin in their hearts....

is their conviction when you persuade others to go against what their hearts are telling them not to do?

Do you know that in ancient times, being left handed was considered a sign of being controlled by Satan? People who were left handed were often tortured and at best had their left hand tied behind them. So, if I met someone who was struggling with trying their best to be right handed but unhappy and not able to fully be right handed, would I be putting a stumbling block in their lives to let them know that they are exactly as God created them to be?

The answer to both questions, I believe is NO. However, I surely would never suggest any one do anything that feels contradictory to their conscience. I am a pastoral minister, and when people ask me about these kinds of things, I recommend first, reading Psalm 139 with the understanding that God has always known who we are. And that they continue to ask God's direction in following the path that God has directed for them.

kara

[BrentRichards]

i have a question that one of my friends brought up in dialogue that we had at my school Cornerstone!! but yeah she brought up this scripture.....

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

the context of this scripture is when paul addresses the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols which is not a sin but if it causes others to sin than it is a sin....

so my friend had asked one group member amy, if you go around telling people it is ok to be homosexual when they feel that in their hearts it is wrong, you are persuading them sin because paul had said that we should not cause our brothers and sisters to go against their hearts and what they feel as sin in their hearts....

is their conviction when you persuade others to go against what their hearts are telling them not to do?

As I said, I believe this is a perfectly reasonable question. Paul, in the Scripture you reference, is indeed speaking of matters of conscience, and the idea of sacrificing our priviledge for the sake of "weaker brethren."

Note a few significant differences in what Paul is addressing, and application to what Soulforce is doing:

1. First, the whole context of his discussion is "those whose faith is weak." To apply the principle of "not doing what someone else thinks is wrong" more generally allows us to suggest that confronting the church when it is wrong (which it often has been in history) is a violation of another's conscience. This is a big stretch of Paul's principle, and one with dangerous results. Paul himself did not use the principle that way ... for example, he confronted the "Judaizers" (see his letter to the Galatians) for insisting on circumscision, and told them in no uncertain terms that calling for circumscicion among believers (which many thought was a scripturally justified demand) was wrong. He doesn't seem to concern himself with whether anyone's misplaced "faith" will be offended by his refusal to uphold an OT Jewish law.

2. The matter at hand in Paul's argument (eating meat sacrificed to idols) is one of moral indifference. Nobody NEEDS to eat meat sacrificed to idols. The act in itself has no moral value. So, if I choose to do something as purely a matter of "I wanna," and thereby damage the faith of the weaker brethren, I am wrong. When we move into the debate about homosexuality, we can disagree about the moral value of homosexuality, but I can't imagine either side of the debate suggesting that it is a matter of moral indifference. Soulforce (and those of us who support what they are doing) believe that a tremendous moral injustice is being done ... gay people have been told for generations that we have no place at the cross, or at the very best, we have a "second class" place. The churches teaching has contributed to all kinds of mistreatment, self-hatred, disillusionment and loss of faith, and yes, plenty of deaths as well (by suicide or violence). That is NOT a matter of moral indifference. If someone's faith is "offended" by my stand for justice, it is not a violation of Paul's principle. If this were a violation of the principle, I could just as easily argue that Christians who speak against homosexuality are offending my faith... which of us has the right not to be offended?

3. The language of "we who are strong" and "those who are weak" is most clearly a reference to maturity of faith here, but one can't help but notice the similarity of language to the piles and piles of scripture talking of duty toward the poor, the oppressed, and the outcast. In this light, it is impossible to cast the chuch establishment in the role of the "weak" who are being offended.

The difficulty with this passage is that many Christians have used it as an excuse to remove personal freedom, and to militate against personal conscience in debatable matters... it has been used to categorically forbid smoking, drinking, dancing, card playing, going to movies, and on, and on, and on ... It may indeed have some relevance to those matters, but I would argue it is NOT the principle to go for in this particular debate.

Those are my first thoughts ... many brighter minds here will doubtless have more to say!

[u-dog]

The idea that Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned for inhospitality comes from the story itself. the angels appear as strangers. Every single male person from old guys to little boys come out and demand to rape the strangers. if you understand the culture in which this story was written you know that there was a STRONG expectation that strangers will be welcomed and protected. The reason the story doesn't consider Lot's offer of his virginal daughters as a sin is that he offers them as a way to PROTECT the STRANGERS.

If you check out all 15-20 places in the Scripture where S and G are referenced you will find that the Bible NOWHERE identifies the sin of Sodom as same-sex behavior... or even same-sex rape for that matter. Go ahead and look those passages up (go to www.Biblegateway.com and search on "Sodom". see what you come up with. The other biblical writers mostly identify economic injustice as the primary sin of Sodom.

[BrentRichards]

ok here is another question...

how do you reconsile the argument of sodom and gomorrah.. i have heard that it God did not destroy it for homosexuality...but rather for inhospitality... where does that come from??? also from the scriptures that clearly state not lie with a male as a male??? what do you say when you are in that argument?? how can you reconsile that? i don't understand

This one is quite simple. I absolutely think one of the sins of Sodom was it's sexual immorality (though the idea that it involved lack of hospitality as well is inescapable). Certainly, in the Genesis 19 account, the sexual overtones are clear. What was about to happen was homosexual gang rape. Now, my question to you is, how do you generalize that to say that "since homosexual gang rape is wrong, homosexuality is wrong." It's a huge leap. If the principle held, we'd have to say that Scripture is against heterosexuality, too, because it clearly condems certain heterosexual sins. That's an irresponsible use of Scripture.

[hillsong2010]

how do you reconsile the argument of not lying with a male as a woman? how can we as christians get around that? and the fact that God says and lists homosexuality as a sin that is "abhorant" in his eyes?

[kara speltz]

ok here is another question...

how do you reconsile the argument of sodom and gomorrah.. i have heard that it God did not destroy it for homosexuality...but rather for inhospitality... where does that come from??? also from the scriptures that clearly state not lie with a male as a male??? what do you say when you are in that argument?? how can you reconsile that? i don't understand

Dear Hill: Ezekial lists the sins of Sodom & Gamorrah, and it was greed and inhospitality. Jesus makes it even clearer, when he tells the disciples that if some one is inhospitable to them to shake the dust from their feet and move on. He goes on to compare that to Sodom & Gamorrah.

Now, I am going to advise you the same as I have a number of people who have joined this forum as a result of the Equality Ride. You really need to do your homework. And that homework starts out by reading the pamphlet, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality." You can download it by going to our home page and check out resources, or store.

The reason I say you need to do your own homework, comes from my experience in the Civil Rights Movement. As white people began to question their beliefs in white superiority, it wasn't the responsibility of black people to educate them. It was the responsibility of those who carried these untruths to open their hearts and minds and begin to treat their Afro American brothers and sisters as equals. I did make a lot of mistakes, but I also did my homework and so people were very compassionate with me as I threw off the myths of the superiority of white people.

I understand you're just becoming aware that there might be another truth out there that you've never considered, but don't abuse us in your learning process, please. I think you're trying your best and just like back in the civil rights movement, we white folks made all sorts of mistakes, it's understandable, but it is also painful to those of us who time and time again are told we can't be gay and christian. So start with the pamphlet, it will explain many of your questions. And welcome to the forums.

kara

[BrentRichards]

The idea that Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned for inhospitality comes from the story itself. the angels appear as strangers. Every single male person from old guys to little boys come out and demand to rape the strangers. if you understand the culture in which this story was written you know that there was a STRONG expectation that strangers will be welcomed and protected. The reason the story doesn't consider Lot's offer of his virginal daughters as a sin is that he offers them as a way to PROTECT the STRANGERS.

If you check out all 15-20 places in the Scripture where S and G are referenced you will find that the Bible NOWHERE identifies the sin of Sodom as same-sex behavior... or even same-sex rape for that matter. Go ahead and look those passages up (go to www.Biblegateway.com and search on "Sodom". see what you come up with. The other biblical writers mostly identify economic injustice as the primary sin of Sodom.

Worth noting that the hospitality theme is even more overt in the Gibeah narrative (Judges 19) which tells a nearly identical story. In responding to those who seek contact with the guests, the home owner says ""No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing." Notice ... "SINCE THIS MAN IS MY GUEST..." He doesn't say "Since gay is bad..." or "Since man lying with man is an abomination..." Obviously, the thing he sees as most relevant here is the treatment of his guests. The sexual element is not absent, it's simply not the only, or even the main, theme.

[Bearnabas]

It's cool that people are coming to the site because of Equality Ride and I agree with Kara that they need to read the basic text--since it's right here on the site. This goes for all those skeptics too who come with the basic kinds of questions... and it's cool that they come with questions...

Can we put a banner of some sort on the homepage that directs people who want to ask the basic questions first directing them to Dr. White's text--as in a direct link? It might save them and us time--and they get their basic questions answered.

[BrentRichards]

how do you reconsile the argument of not lying with a male as a woman? how can we as christians get around that? and the fact that God says and lists homosexuality as a sin that is "abhorant" in his eyes?

We as Christians do not look to the Levitical Code for our ethics. There are hundreds of Levitical laws we feel no need to "reconcile" or "get around" ... we simply know that they are not our laws, they are ancient Israel's ... do you keep Kosher? Observe strict Sabbath restrictions? Avoid wearing clothes made of two different fabrics? Lest you think I'm straying far afield, you need only go a few verses farther on from the law you quote to find that for a husband and wife to have sex during the woman's period was grounds for expulsion from the community ... why do we not take this seriously? The law is part of redemptive history, but it was FULFILLED in Christ, and no longer binds us.

Beyond this, and this applies even more to what the NT says about homosexuality, we always need to ask "exactly what is the Bible against in this passage." It is easiest to assume that the Biblical authors meant whatever is most obvious to us from our particular set of definitions and assumptions about the world. It is easiest, but not faithful to Scripture. The concept of homosexuality in Biblical times can hardly be argued to be identical with our concept. It was inextricably tied up with idolatry, and (especially in NT times) with pederasty (which we'd usally call child abuse). Again, to generalize from condemnations of these practices going on around the Bible authors to condemn any and all homosexual expressions is an irresponsible leap.

I will agree with Kara that, if you really do want to understand how we read these scriptures, and how we understand God's attitude toward us, there are some excellent resources out there for that ... not least of all Mel's introductory pamphlet.

[andrewlittle]

how do you reconsile the argument of not lying with a male as a woman? how can we as christians get around that? and the fact that God says and lists homosexuality as a sin that is "abhorant" in his eyes?

Leviticus (transliterated from Hebrew)
18:22 v’et-zacar lo tishcab mish’c’bey ishar to’ebah he
20:13 v’iysh ashere yishcab et-zacar mish’c’bey ishar to’ebah asu sh’neyhem mot yumatu d'mehem bam

Of significance to me, especially if one is going to rely on the actual Hebrew wording is mish’c’bey ishar. The word mish’c’bey is a common plural construct form of the noun mishcav meaning ‘couches’ or ‘beds’. A construct noun denotes something that belongs to the next absolute noun (free-standing, more or less) and is usually translated using the preposition ‘of’. The word ishah (not ishshah) is a common feminine singular absolute noun meaning ‘a woman’, and would be the noun to which mish’c’vey refers. The two words together, then translate as ‘beds of a woman’ or 'a woman' beds'.

The Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate agree and both used the same phrasing, appropriate to the respective grammars of course, to translate these words.

The Greek translated this as coiteyn gunaykos. The word gunaykos is a genitive feminine singular common noun. The genitive case denotes ‘belonging to’ or ‘of’ in the much the same way as the Hebrew construct noun. The word coiteyn (bring to mind coitus) means variously bed, place of marital relationship, place of insemination – in short, place where marital coitus occurs. Therefore, the two words together, coiteyn gunaykos, mean simply ‘a bed of a woman’.

The Latin Vulgate translated this phrase as coitu femineo. Far from the Latin being definitive, interpreting the meaning of coitu and femineo is critical. Coitu can be either a supine verbal form, similar to an infinitive, or a noun. The presence of femineo, an adjective which generally qualifies a noun, is of immense importance. The use of an adjective requires the presence of a noun. The most likely understanding would be that the noun that femineo modifies is coitu, which would lead to the translation ‘a woman’s meeting place’ or, logically, ‘a woman’s bed’.

The other option, treating coitu as a supine verb, would give the meaning we later find in English translations, but would also be grammatically incorrect. The adjective femineo is left without a noun to modify. The rough translation of the two words together into, "to have sexual intercourse like a woman" is very flawed, and inconsistent with the Hebrew and Greek, which were unequivocal.

The entirety of an accurate translation of 18:22, therefore, is:
You will not lie down with a male on a woman’s beds; it is an abomination.
And 20:13 is:
A man who lies down with a male on a woman’s beds – they have committed (done) an abomination. Both of them shall be put (executed) to death; their blood is upon themselves.

What, then, is an abomination? Since in both Hebrew and Greek, "woman" and "wife" are synonymous, the proscription is about a man lying with a man on a wife's bed - bed being held in Leviticus 15 to be virtually sacrosanct. There is a pattern that "spoiling the bed" is one of the ways adultery is described. These are proscriptions, but the action being prohibited is not the male-male sex, but rather the male-male sex occuring on the bed of a wife - it is about the common theme of adultery of a man already in relationship with a woman.

[hillsong2010]

what do you think of the genesis argument? that God created woman for man and no where in genesis or the bible does it talk of homosexual relationships. why would God have created woman instead of a man? if it is ok with God for us to be gay than why did God not say that it is ok so that we don't have to argue about it like murder... we don't argue about murder because that is clear cut... also with the fact the bible does not say specifically a lot of things like masturbation or pedophilia.. how do you feel about these sexually immoral things which are sins against your own body?

[hillsong2010]

do you believe perhaps that is possible to have been given over to a reprobate mind... that is being given up to your own desires.... as the scriptures say that God will do.. is sometimes give people over to reprobate minds?

[keltic63]

what do you think of the genesis argument? that God created woman for man and no where in genesis or the bible does it talk of homosexual relationships. why would God have created woman instead of a man? if it is ok with God for us to be gay than why did God not say that it is ok so that we don't have to argue about it like murder... we don't argue about murder because that is clear cut... also with the fact the bible does not say specifically a lot of things like masturbation or pedophilia.. how do you feel about these sexually immoral things which are sins against your own body?

are you comparing my orientation, my capacity for love, to murder?

since the bible is silent on pedophilia, do you think it's ok?



and here's what my dad taught me about masturbation: 9 out of 10 people do it, and the 10th one is a liar. :lol:

[keltic63]

do you believe perhaps that is possible to have been given over to a reprobate mind... that is being given up to your own desires.... as the scriptures say that God will do.. is sometimes give people over to reprobate minds?


are you saying we're too sick to know that we're sinning?

[hillsong2010]

are you comparing my orientation, my capacity for love, to murder?

since the bible is silent on pedophilia, do you think it's ok?



and here's what my dad taught me about masturbation: 9 out of 10 people do it, and the 10th one is a liar. :lol:

i am not comparing your orientation to murder.. i am just curious to know what you think about that question.. why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptable...
and i don't believe pedophilia is right.. but what do you think?:)

[kara speltz]

i am not comparing your orientation to murder.. i am just curious to know what you think about that question.. why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptable...
and i don't believe pedophilia is right.. but what do you think?:)

Hill: I made a request of you that from your succeeding posts it would seem you didn't feel the need to respond to. I asked you to read, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality." And to spend some time learning instead of just blocking what we are saying to you. You have your pat answers to every thing we say to you. It's clear you're not here to learn only to condemn.

It's sad to watch you conservatives consistently do this crap. Come on line, pretend you have an interest at dialogue and then just use it to take pot shots at us.

Believe me when I say to you that you are being used to do work of evil. Of causing your LGBT sisters and brothers deep pain. And as M.L. King, Jr. said, " We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitrolic words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people."

I only wish you "good people" would keep silent but God knows what is in our hearts even if you don't

And since you haven't had the courtesy to do your homework, and stop your bashing, I will no longer attempt to try to dialogue with you because I truly believe that you're not interested in dialogue only in proving yourself right. Sad, sad, sad.

kara

[hillsong2010]

Hill: I made a request of you that from your succeeding posts it would seem you didn't feel the need to respond to. I asked you to read, "What the Bible Does and Doesn't Say About Homosexuality." And to spend some time learning instead of just blocking what we are saying to you. You have your pat answers to every thing we say to you. It's clear you're not here to learn only to condemn.

It's sad to watch you conservatives consistently do this crap. Come on line, pretend you have an interest at dialogue and then just use it to take pot shots at us.

Believe me when I say to you that you are being used to do work of evil. Of causing your LGBT sisters and brothers deep pain. And as M.L. King, Jr. said, " We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitrolic words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people."

I only wish you "good people" would keep silent but God knows what is in our hearts even if you don't

And since you haven't had the courtesy to do your homework, and stop your bashing, I will no longer attempt to try to dialogue with you because I truly believe that you're not interested in dialogue only in proving yourself right. Sad, sad, sad.

kara

you honestly are totally misconstrued and really need to keep quiet.. i am a person struggling to understand both sides of the issue... i know so little of what i desire to know but i thought that because you soulforce participants would be knowledgable about these things that i ask... i asked not in hostility nor in a demeaning way.. and honestly shut up with the whole "pretending to dialogue" i am trully dialoguing!!!!!! i have no intension on hurting anyone.. only in gaining knowledge.. if you can't stop judging me already by saying i have not read your pamphlet..which i did.. and saying that i am conservative.. which i am not.. you just need to shut up.. stop being the victim and look at my questions as nothing more than that... as questions..and if this can't be a safe enviroment to ask questions without ridicule than that is your fault!!!!!! because i have not used any language to make myself look like i have all the answers.. if i did i would not be in theis forum!

[ladyinred]

Hillsong, they have been trying to answer your questions, but it does seem that you have come here to attack people because they are gay rather than trying to get their perspective on things. As for what you say about pedophilia , you are lumping gay people in with that.Let me ask you this what do you have to say about straight people who do the same thing? Would you lump heterosexuality in with acts of pedophilia and say it is a straight person's disease? Explain how an estimated 1 out of four girls is molested then,if you don't think this is not a problem with heterosexuals as well? But would you equate heterosexuality with pedophilia, of course not. Because not all heterosexuals do things like that and in fact most do not. As far as gays thinking pedophilia is right,of course not.

However you may not understand the meaning of dialogue, while you have the right to disagree, ask questions, you do cross a line when you start to attack people, and your last response was pretty rude. Telling people on this forum to shut up for one is inappropriate, you came here and were supposedly here to ask questions, people will not respond positively to your questions if you take a combative stance.
Asking questions is one thing and there is nothing wrong with asking questions about the scriptures you pointed out, but it is the way you've gone about it. Kara refused to dialogue with you in further. that is her right to end the conversation if she so chooses. If you cannot carry on a civil conversation without being hostile, then this dialogue will erode and no one benefits.And if you think you are being treated unfairly by this forum, I'm sorry, but we have certain rules we ourselves must adhere to, ones' that show respect and consideration to others here that are members on this forum and that should apply to others who visit this forum as well. If you wish to carry on this dialogue however, please respect the rights and feelings of other's on this forum and they will be more than glad to answer your questions

[Emproph]

you honestly are totally misconstrued and really need to keep quiet.. i am a person struggling to understand both sides of the issue... i know so little of what i desire to know but i thought that because you soulforce participants would be knowledgable about these things that i ask... i asked not in hostility nor in a demeaning way.. and honestly shut up with the whole "pretending to dialogue" i am trully dialoguing!!!!!! i have no intension on hurting anyone.. only in gaining knowledge.. if you can't stop judging me already by saying i have not read your pamphlet..which i did.. and saying that i am conservative.. which i am not.. you just need to shut up.. stop being the victim and look at my questions as nothing more than that... as questions..and if this can't be a safe enviroment to ask questions without ridicule than that is your fault!!!!!! because i have not used any language to make myself look like i have all the answers.. if i did i would not be in theis forum!

hillsong, you need to understand that we’ve been through these questions more times than we can count, and much too often the intent of the person asking the questions is just as Kara described. I agree that the manner in which you are asking questions here have not been condemnatory in nature, but it is important to understand that much too often it is the end result of the dialogue.

It would be a good assumption to conclude that questions such as yours will be perceived as condemnatory. Not to discourage you, just to suggest that it’s almost imperative that you make the EXTRA effort to ensure that your words are not taken as such.

A little sincerity goes a long way ‘round these parts. You’re asking questions and so are we. To just acknowledge that a question was asked or that a suggestion was made, can make a profound difference – as simple as “I’ve read Mel White’s “what the Bible says about..., and don’t feel lead to comment on it just yet,” will often do the trick. It at least let’s us know that you’re not just dismissing us. Being dismissed or having our concerns flatly ignored is of supreme insult. I’m not suggesting that this was your intention, but it’s something you should be aware of that we are very sensitive to, and to please be sensitive to what we’ve been subjected to in this regard.

I realize it’s a challenge, but like I said, a simple acknowledgment that you’re not sure how to phrase something as non-offensive can do wonders for furthering amiable dialogue. It’s as simple as saying “I don’t mean to be offensive when asking this, so please show me how to better ask such a question in the future.”

It’s also important to acknowledge and respond to questions that have been answered, even if just to say “I’ll have to think about that.” :)


That said,
how do you reconsile the argument of not lying with a male as a woman? how can we as christians get around that? and the fact that God says and lists homosexuality as a sin that is "abhorant" in his eyes?
leviticus 20:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:13;&version=31;)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

Is a woman lying with a woman NOT “abhorrent?” And how do you reconcile God's supposed admonition that we homosexual males “must be put to death?”

Or, as in Luke 16:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2016:18;&version=31;)
Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
leviticus 20:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:10&version=31)
'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
How do you reconcile the argument that those who are remarried (outside of the biblical exceptions; adultery itself and non-belief) should be condemned as adulterers – AND be put to death?

Surely there are many more unrepentant adulterers (via remarriage) than there are homosexuals that are doomed to eternal damnation. Why is this not more of a concern?

To sacrifice the salvation of a majority (adulterers), for the condemnation of a minority (homosexuals), appears to me as being even MORE sinful than homosexuality and/or adultery combined.

Even if we were "reprobate of mind," how would we know that you recognize truth better than us, when such a significant Biblical truth as that is completely ignored?

do you believe perhaps that is possible to have been given over to a reprobate mind... that is being given up to your own desires.... as the scriptures say that God will do.. is sometimes give people over to reprobate minds?

A better question might be why God didn’t explain the connection between same-sex attraction itself and inherent evil (reprobate mind) – the desire to do harm to others.

I have yet to hear a VALID theory on that. (same-sex attraction = hurt others)

i am not comparing your orientation to murder.. i am just curious to know what you think about that question.. why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptable...
and i don't believe pedophilia is right.. but what do you think?:)

Thus the reason for age-of-consent laws. Most children are not mature enough to understand the potentially detrimental effects of sex. It usually causes great psychological and/or physical harm, thus we call it child abuse. Like murder or theft or rape, it goes without saying that this is NOT doing unto others as you would have done unto them, or Loving your neighbor as yourself.

And:
why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptablePerhaps to test those who claim to know the true nature of Good and evil – to ensure that it is understood that such a nature is NOT arbitrary. That the determination of evil requires the discovery of something harmful to others.
how do you feel about these sexually immoral things which are sins against your own body?
If the argument is about “sins against the body,” why wouldn’t those sins that cause the destruction of the body be MORE important than the sexual one’s? Wouldn’t we start with the Tobacco and Alcohol industries as compared with masturbation? Masturbation doesn’t kill you or negatively affect anyone else as far as I can tell, yet over 1000 people a day die from cigarettes. What do you think God thinks about those sins against the body that also affect the rest of society?

[ladyinred]

Or, as in Luke 16:18
Quote:
Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
leviticus 20:10
Quote:
'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Another point to consider what if we applied the old leviticus law of stoning adulterers with Jesus's views on adultery, with the high rate of divorce in our country that would mean alot of people being put to death. Obviously we do not apply those standards today do we?

[Pablo Rafael]

why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptable...
and i don't believe pedophilia is right.. but what do you think?:)

I don't think you can use that logic. We believe because the Bible reveals to us a teaching. A person can't use the reasoning that "here is a doctrine, now prove to me from the Bible that it isn't true." The Bible is very clear on pedophilia. Even if it doesn't state the situation directly, there are numerous clear references about treating others in love, taking care of children, etc.
Why is it then with homosexuality that the conservative Christian community asserts that is wrong and then tries to find scriptures against it? Doctrines need to flow from Scripture. They can't be formulated and then Scripture used to try to hold them up.

The Sodom story. Does it ever say that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality? Nowhere in Scripture does it say that. Would it have been OK if it were heterosexual gang rape? Without any reference to homosexual rape the whole situation described would have been a sin.

The Leviticus passage. How many of he Levitical laws do conservative Christians follow? Since we believe that we no longer have to follow those laws because they were fulfilled by Christ's death on the cross, why does that one verse keep getting brought up? Do we follow the levitcal laws today, Yes or No? You can't say yes for only one situation no to all the rest.

What about the terms Paul uses in the New Testament that are sometimes translated homosexual? Since that term didn't even exist in the first century, then we are relying only on a translation. The meaning of the terms isn't even known; it is a supposition. Again I believe a case of "Of course homosexuality is wrong, therefore those terms must refer to it."

Even if you believe that the Bible speaks against gay men, you would have to admit that it nowhere talks about lesbians. All the references are to men, not women.

The Bible is very clear on approaching others in love. It encourages long term committed relationships. It is clear on being faithful to one's spouse. It is clear on teaching that the motive for any action is the important thing. It is clear that we should let the Bible speak for itself and not add our own teachings. The Bible has been used by many over the centuries to oppress others; that is contrary to the message of the Gospel.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Emproph]

The Sodom story. Does it ever say that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality? Nowhere in Scripture does it say that. Would it have been OK if it were heterosexual gang rape? Without any reference to homosexual rape the whole situation described would have been a sin.


I keep forgetting that about Sodom and Gomorrah. It's an issue of gang-rape, not homosexuality.

Unless of course that the argument is that God hates homosexual gang-bang more so than the exponentially more prevalent heterosexual gang-bang.

Fortunately, and I say this with all sarcasm, at least God approves of giving your own virgin daughters up to be gang-raped in lieu of welcome strangers.

[nmwolfboy]

well... i have to say that after karas comment.... i really feel affirmed in my spirit that i am not to accept these homosexual things.. cuz i have struggled with them.. and now that i know even people like kara are so judgemental and critical... it created confusion and confusion is not from God... so thanks Kara! because i now feel at peace with the fact that in my life homosexuality is not and has never been acceptable for me

To add my $0.02 worth -

i've read & re-read the posts in this thread. From where i sit, i don't see Kara's posts as judgmental. Critical, yes, but what's wrong with that? Especially since the criticisms are presented respectfully, relative to the tone of your posts, hillsong.

Now, i perceive that you don't see your posts that way. i even believe that you're here to learn. However, you also say:

i asked not in hostility nor in a demeaning way.. and honestly shut up with the whole "pretending to dialogue" i am trully dialoguing!!!!!! i have no intension on hurting anyone.. only in gaining knowledge..
That, added to the way you've written in some of your other posts, really comes across to me as hostile, demeaning, and hurtful. And i'm pretty thick-skinned, and certainly don't view myself as a victim. Dialoguing in a respectful way, especially with others who likely hold different opinions, and who have no problem pointing out where they differ from you, is no easy task. i have days when i'm up to the task, and days when i'm not.

As gently as i can, i'm suggesting that perhaps the manner in which you ask your questions is not as non-hostile nor as respectful as you surmise. Perhaps you might consider taking some time to forbear from posting & instead browse through past postings on other threads here at Soulforce. All of the questions you've asked have been asked before in one way or another. They've been discussed, argued about, shot down, resurrected and researched ad nauseum here. If people here are not hearing you, perhaps God's suggesting that you listen (ie, read) for a while.

One of the ways i understand the implications of the two commandments which Jesus gave us (Mark 12:28–34 and Matthew 22:34-40) is that i should strive to see & love each person i come into contact with as Jesus would see & love them. Of course, i fail quite often. That's what it means to me to be a sinner in need of God's Grace. :pray: :) Take the time to ask Him to reveal Himself to you here. i promise to make the same request of Him. :agree:

Pax :dove:

scott

[Daniel]

well... i have to say that after karas comment.... i really feel affirmed in my spirit that i am not to accept these homosexual things.. cuz i have struggled with them.. and now that i know even people like kara are so judgemental and critical... it created confusion and confusion is not from God... so thanks Kara! because i now feel at peace with the fact that in my life homosexuality is not and has never been acceptable for me

Dear proto gay person aka hillsong,

You really have things turned inside-out here.

We don't define ourselves based on the reactions of other people if we think about things for a good long minute. I mean, let's get real here, do you just decide what to do in life based on which way the wind blows? I doubt it. Even jelly fish can swim a little bit against the current. Kara is the least of your concerns.

To be candid, your train of thought comes off as a rationalization. Know what that means? It means that your questioning of yourself is now being shut down because of some else's reaction to you.

Know what? That's what internalized homphobia does.

Hey. You may have same-sex attraction. You may not. What the heck do I know? Not much as far as you are concerned- only you can say what is truth for you. But I do know that if you define yourself by the reactions of others- good and ill- you are not going to get anywhere in life. And you won't know what you actually do think and feel.

People get judgmental when they feel like they are being judged. And people as I've observed always...and I mean always ...become judgmental of others only after they are judgmental with themselves. This is why the scripture say Do unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You. Trouble is, we get it backwards. ;) We do unto others what we do to ourselves. Got that? In modern language, it's called projection. We hate something in ourselves and instead of owning up to that hate, criticize another in word, deed or attitude, for the same thing. And we do it without thinking or an awareness of what we are doing.

You might take a moment it think about the fact that you may be coming off to people here as judgmental because you may harbor judgement about feelings of same-sex attaction. You judge those feelings rather than look at them with compassion.

You may not be able to accept those feelings right now. They may frighten you a lot. And if that is the case, it wouldn't suprise me at all for you to want to distance those feelings from youself.

The best thing I can tell you is to read all the information on this site and see a counselor that will not JUDGE you for your feelings, whatever they are.

Information is power. But to get that info, you are going to have to extend yourself in a way that doesn't bring harm to yourself of others. That just messes things up- and clouds the issue.

I wish you much peace.

[Emproph]

well... i have to say that after karas comment.... i really feel affirmed in my spirit that i am not to accept these homosexual things.. cuz i have struggled with them.. and now that i know even people like kara are so judgemental and critical... it created confusion and confusion is not from God... so thanks Kara! because i now feel at peace with the fact that in my life homosexuality is not and has never been acceptable for me

There's still the matter of the fact that you want it to be acceptable.

Kara's judgement and criticism is not as a result of same-sex attraction. There should be no confusion about this. Anyone can judge anyone and be critical for any reason.

I criticized you and judged you in my own way in my posts. I regret that I added to any sense of your confusion. That was not my intention. I speak from a place that is free of that confusion, so does Kara.
It's not about "homosexuality," and you understand this. It's about wanting to love and be loved. The desire to be happy.

It doesn't matter what any of us here at Soulforce say, it's about you loving and respecting yourself enough to not feel guilty about the need to be truly happy. To share the love that God has for you with another person.

:dollar: It happens, it's real. :dollar:

[davidb]

Hill,

While we may be of different generations, we do come from similar religious backgrounds, so I feel compelled to reply to your posts. I’m not interested in having a theological debate with you regarding the passages in Leviticus 18, Romans 1, etc., because over the year’s I’ve realized that believers come to differing conclusions on these issues. And frankly, imho people twist the Bible in so many self-serving ways, and have done so for so long, I believe that you can make an argument for just about anything. I don’t doubt your sincerity, and I don’t want you to doubt mine. I simply want to tell you my story, because I fear that it is not being told on your campus—and it should be.

I was brought up in a loving Christian home--my parents have been married for almost 50 years. They raised my sister and I in the care of a conservative GARBC church in upstate NY. I accepted Christ when I was 5 years old, and decided that I wanted to demonstrate my commitment by being baptized when I was 8. I was filled with a genuine zeal for Christ and an irrepressible urge to share his message of redemption with others. I was the child who brought the most friends from my neighborhood in for Good News Club, and I had a shelf full of Awana awards in my bedroom. I went to Bible camp every summer, was selected to be a leader in my youth group, and led bible studies with other teens in my community. After graduating from a Christian high school, I attended Baptist Bible College in Clarks Summit, PA, and Grace College in Winona Lake, IN with dual degrees in Psychology and the Bible in the 1980s.

I was completely committed to Christ. I was also gay.

From as early as I can remember having romantic attachments, they were always directed at members of my same gender. Even from the time that I was in elementary school, I knew for certain that I had to keep my feelings to myself, lest I become outcast from my family, my church, and my community. Acting on my feelings would have been a death sentence. I sat in my pew for years and listened to my Pastor preach about the terrible fate that awaited sinners, especially people who indulged in sexual sins. He was a very powerful man, completely motivated by fear, and he made sure that his particular brand of hell-fire-and-brimstone sermons had tremendous results. I heard week-in and week-out that homosexuality was equivalent to child molestation and murder, and I was informed constantly that the flames of hell would burn especially bright for someone who was a deviant.

The very words you used in some of your posts--reprobate, immoral, condemned--were the words that described my very worst fears growing up. I understand your fears because I lived them. And worse than my fear was the silence. There was no one—not one pastor, counselor or teacher—that I felt safe enough with to verbalize my struggles. I watched peers of mine be ex-communicated because they got pregnant or were found guilty of fornication. A different witch-hunt would be held every few months. On the outside I was a competent, devout, Christian leader. On the inside I was depressed, gripped with guilt and fear, and struggling with suicide. Stumbling? I was fallen, battered, twisted, bruised, and bleeding.

Not to be selfish here, but I have to ask, who in my religious community really cared? I felt more than enough pressure put on me to be obedient, to talk the God-talk, to follow the party line, and to obey the rules. But where was the love? Where was the support? Where was the message “you are fearfully and wonderfully made, irregardless of your struggles, you are precious to God, and he loves you—no ifs, ands, or buts.” In my years of affiliation with evangelical Christianity, I experienced no love without conditions.

And if you tell me that no one at Cornerstone is struggling like I did, then you are deceiving yourself. Over the years, I have met between 8 and 12 glbt individuals--under completely random circumstances--who graduated from your university. And countless others from similar schools.

People e-mail the Equality Riders from every institution—from the most conservative to the most liberal—thanking them for visiting their campus and showing support. Many people state that it is the first time they have met someone who is openly Christian and openly gay. This is the message you need to hear, and I hope that your heart is open enough to hear part of it. Take time to listen to people who have come to different theological conclusions that you have. Yes, it’s confusing. And I know you’ll throw the “God is not the author of confusion” argument out. But God also does not live in a box, and there is a whole world out there that is part of God’s divine creation that doesn’t blindly accept your theological constructs and your code of conduct. Learn to respect these differences, and listen to the opinions of others with an open heart and an open mind. Yes, this will cause you conflict at Cornerstone. But Cornerstone is only for a time, and after you leave you are going to have to make your way in a pluralistic society, and your life will be much richer—trust me—if the primary motivation is something other than fear.

Just some random thoughts from a former kindred spirit…

[kara speltz]

Hill,

While we may be of different generations, we do come from similar religious backgrounds, so I feel compelled to reply to your posts. I’m not interested in having a theological debate with you regarding the passages in Leviticus 18, Romans 1, etc., because over the year’s I’ve realized that believers come to differing conclusions on these issues. And frankly, imho people twist the Bible in so many self-serving ways, and have done so for so long, I believe that you can make an argument for just about anything. I don’t doubt your sincerity, and I don’t want you to doubt mine. I simply want to tell you my story, because I fear that it is not being told on your campus—and it should be.

I was brought up in a loving Christian home--my parents have been married for almost 50 years. They raised my sister and I in the care of a conservative GARBC church in upstate NY. I accepted Christ when I was 5 years old, and decided that I wanted to demonstrate my commitment by being baptized when I was 8. I was filled with a genuine zeal for Christ and an irrepressible urge to share his message of redemption with others. I was the child who brought the most friends from my neighborhood in for Good News Club, and I had a shelf full of Awana awards in my bedroom. I went to Bible camp every summer, was selected to be a leader in my youth group, and led bible studies with other teens in my community. After graduating from a Christian high school, I attended Baptist Bible College in Clarks Summit, PA, and Grace College in Winona Lake, IN with dual degrees in Psychology and the Bible in the 1980s.

I was completely committed to Christ. I was also gay.

From as early as I can remember having romantic attachments, they were always directed at members of my same gender. Even from the time that I was in elementary school, I knew for certain that I had to keep my feelings to myself, lest I become outcast from my family, my church, and my community. Acting on my feelings would have been a death sentence. I sat in my pew for years and listened to my Pastor preach about the terrible fate that awaited sinners, especially people who indulged in sexual sins. He was a very powerful man, completely motivated by fear, and he made sure that his particular brand of hell-fire-and-brimstone sermons had tremendous results. I heard week-in and week-out that homosexuality was equivalent to child molestation and murder, and I was informed constantly that the flames of hell would burn especially bright for someone who was a deviant.

The very words you used in some of your posts--reprobate, immoral, condemned--were the words that described my very worst fears growing up. I understand your fears because I lived them. And worse than my fear was the silence. There was no one—not one pastor, counselor or teacher—that I felt safe enough with to verbalize my struggles. I watched peers of mine be ex-communicated because they got pregnant or were found guilty of fornication. A different witch-hunt would be held every few months. On the outside I was a competent, devout, Christian leader. On the inside I was depressed, gripped with guilt and fear, and struggling with suicide. Stumbling? I was fallen, battered, twisted, bruised, and bleeding.

Not to be selfish here, but I have to ask, who in my religious community really cared? I felt more than enough pressure put on me to be obedient, to talk the God-talk, to follow the party line, and to obey the rules. But where was the love? Where was the support? Where was the message “you are fearfully and wonderfully made, irregardless of your struggles, you are precious to God, and he loves you—no ifs, ands, or buts.” In my years of affiliation with evangelical Christianity, I experienced no love without conditions.

And if you tell me that no one at Cornerstone is struggling like I did, then you are deceiving yourself. Over the years, I have met between 8 and 12 glbt individuals--under completely random circumstances--who graduated from your university. And countless others from similar schools.

People e-mail the Equality Riders from every institution—from the most conservative to the most liberal—thanking them for visiting their campus and showing support. Many people state that it is the first time they have met someone who is openly Christian and openly gay. This is the message you need to hear, and I hope that your heart is open enough to hear part of it. Take time to listen to people who have come to different theological conclusions that you have. Yes, it’s confusing. And I know you’ll throw the “God is not the author of confusion” argument out. But God also does not live in a box, and there is a whole world out there that is part of God’s divine creation that doesn’t blindly accept your theological constructs and your code of conduct. Learn to respect these differences, and listen to the opinions of others with an open heart and an open mind. Yes, this will cause you conflict at Cornerstone. But Cornerstone is only for a time, and after you leave you are going to have to make your way in a pluralistic society, and your life will be much richer—trust me—if the primary motivation is something other than fear.
Just some random thoughts from a former kindred spirit…

David: What a beautiful, loving letter you have written to Hill. I hope he can take it all in. Hill I'm not condemning you, I hope you understand that. I am confused because your last posting, sounded like you were saying you are gay and struggling with that. That was not my understanding from your previous posts.

Hill, please reread David's letter, again and again, if you have to. Please read the 139th Psalm and know that God has always known who you were, even before you began to get an inkling. Stop responding to these posts for a while and just give yourself time to take it all in.

kara