BYU Grads Perspective

[provocougar]

Of course i found out about this orginization when soulforce recently made its trek to BYU to stage some protests. I thought it was curiously strange. First and foremost being a member of the LDS church, i think people will know my belief system. I've read a few posts on here and don't want to beat any horses to death (or then we'd have PETA protesting as well). So lets see if i can take a different angle. I believe that being gay is wrong, morally and socially. I don't hate gays, heck i don't even really know any, because its not something i go around asking people. Ok, back to the angle, My God and your God are two different things. Because i believe in a God that believes that homosexuality is wrong. Whereas soulforce members believe in a God that embraces and even promotes homosexuality. So therefore we must believe in different Gods? Any thoughts?

[YoungTopper86]

I'm glad you have been taking the time to read our posts and perspectives. I'm also glad you are stating your opinion and asking for comments.

I'll get the ball rolling by saying you need to get some gay friends. They are very compassionate. Take me for instance, I'm a "giver" to the community, I don't "take" at all. I'd say we need more people like myself, but then whom would I "give" to. And that's my point. If you only want people like yourself, then the world couldn't revolve as it does. Think about that and I'll get into more details about your comments in a moment...

[dsdrane]

Any thoughts?

Nope. Not a one.

(Someone'd better get PETA on the horn....)

:smashy:

[provocougar]

I'll get the ball rolling by saying you need to get some gay friends. They are very compassionate. Take me for instance, I'm a "giver" to the community, I don't "take" at all. I'd say we need more people like myself, but then whom would I "give" to. And that's my point. If you only want people like yourself, then the world couldn't revolve as it does. Think about that and I'll get into more details about your comments in a moment...

I never said that i want people like myself. Diversity brings new perspective to the table. I guess i just don't understand how someone could think that BYU is a destructive force in the society to a point that you would protest against it.

[keltic63]

I never said that i want people like myself. Diversity brings new perspective to the table. I guess i just don't understand how someone could think that BYU is a destructive force in the society to a point that you would protest against it.


hmmm, I guess I just don't understand how someone could think that gays and lesbians are a destructive force in the society to a point that one would restrict their rights, pronounce their lives similar to murder, pedophilia, bestiality, call them names like "abomination", fire them, evict them, beat them up, kill them, lie about them, make fun of them......

[YoungTopper86]

If the topics we protest for are so different to you, then that is exactly why they are necessary. You are stuck in a box at your university and you don't know how real live people like us live and are discriminated against! I know YOUR god doesn't want you to discriminate against other people, so why do you do it?

[provocougar]

hmmm, I guess I just don't understand how someone could think that gays and lesbians are a destructive force in the society to a point that one would restrict their rights, pronounce their lives similar to murder, pedophilia, bestiality, call them names like "abomination", fire them, evict them, beat them up, kill them, lie about them, make fun of them......

Exactly! That is exactly how lds members are persucuted by other christian orginizations, so we know how it feels. .......i see you are a PA resident as well!

[dsdrane]

Irony...I-Rah-Nee!

[SlimPickens]

So, the irony is that we are treating your community the same way we are treated? (I am also LDS and a student at BYU-Idaho) I have seen many people ask newcomers to these forums if they know any gay people. I am wodering if you know any LDS people. We are taught not to discriminate. We are taught that the freedom to choose our actions is God's gift to us. We try to use that freedom to follow him as best we know how, but if others choose another way that is up to them. So, why is this belief under attack?

[provocougar]

If the topics we protest for are so different to you, then that is exactly why they are necessary. You are stuck in a box at your university and you don't know how real live people like us live and are discriminated against! I know YOUR god doesn't want you to discriminate against other people, so why do you do it?

So if we all thought your way we would be in a different box. So we are just trying to play musical boxes? I don't descriminate, discrimination is not offerring a job or service or talking to someone based on their age, sex and race.
...All right, another LDS'er, welcome welcome!

[YoungTopper86]

So if we all thought your way we would be in a different box. So we are just trying to play musical boxes? I don't descriminate, discrimination is not offerring a job or service or talking to someone based on their age, sex and race.
...All right, another LDS'er, welcome welcome!

Guess what. I used to be LDS myself. That all ended when I was denied the opportunity to progress in the church because of my sexuality. If that's not discrimination, then I don't know what is.

[provocougar]

Guess what. I used to be LDS myself. That all ended when I was denied the opportunity to progress in the church because of my sexuality. If that's not discrimination, then I don't know what is.

What progression are you talking about? Members of the church do not seek positions or offices since they are all unpaid? You are correct that we excommunicate members who willfully practice homosexuality. I guess if that is what you are referring to discrimination then i guess so. But you could say that the women's soccer team is discriminating against me or the united negro college fund is as well.

[dsdrane]

So, the irony is that we are treating your community the same way we are treated?

Yes, especially with respect to other Christian demoninations.

(I am also LDS and a student at BYU-Idaho) I have seen many people ask newcomers to these forums if they know any gay people. I am wodering if you know any LDS people.

Yes, I do know LDS people.

We are taught not to discriminate.

And yet, you do.

We are taught that the freedom to choose our actions is God's gift to us. We try to use that freedom to follow him as best we know how....

Right there with ya, Slim.

...but if others choose another way that is up to them. So, why is this belief under attack?

No sane person chooses a path that would bring them scorn, abuse, or shunning by the larger community around them. No one chooses to be gay; it is something that is chosen for them. The only choice an individual faces is whether to accept God's design or fight it. I, frankly, think it is the height of arrogance to critique God's design. Others seem to think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, to the point that folks are talking about selecting the sex (or, one day, the sexual orientation) of their child. Wow.

Your belief structure is not being attacked by the Equity Riders; rather it is specifically the discriminitory policies of the institution of higher learning associated with your church and how they come to bear psychologically, socially, in myriad different ways on students unlucky enough to find themselves at BYU when they discover that their sexual orientation is other than strictly heterosexual.

Try putting yourself in that hypothetical person's shoes for a minute or two. I'd be surprised if you could, honestly, but it's worth a shot.

[antonyh]

Of course i found out about this orginization when soulforce recently made its trek to BYU to stage some protests. I thought it was curiously strange. First and foremost being a member of the LDS church, i think people will know my belief system. I've read a few posts on here and don't want to beat any horses to death (or then we'd have PETA protesting as well). So lets see if i can take a different angle. I believe that being gay is wrong, morally and socially. I don't hate gays, heck i don't even really know any, because its not something i go around asking people. Ok, back to the angle, My God and your God are two different things. Because i believe in a God that believes that homosexuality is wrong. Whereas soulforce members believe in a God that embraces and even promotes homosexuality. So therefore we must believe in different Gods? Any thoughts?

Same God, different interpretations of the Bible.

[YoungTopper86]

What progression are you talking about? Members of the church do not seek positions or offices since they are all unpaid? You are correct that we excommunicate members who willfully practice homosexuality. I guess if that is what you are referring to discrimination then i guess so. But you could say that the women's soccer team is discriminating against me or the united negro college fund is as well.

Yes, exactly. I am saying all these things do discriminate. It's wrong. Why shouldn't I be able to play on the women's soccer team? If you say for the sake of competition, then that's where you're wrong too. Competition is for barbarians, not civilized people. We should all just play together. Why couldn't the church just allow me to do what I want and just let god do the judging?

[provocougar]

dsdrane - I have been in those shoes, we all have. When we are in a belief system we don't adhere to, we walk away. We find somewhere else. Which is what BYU offers, they don't force the Honor Code on you, but if you attend there, you follow the rules, and if not they invite you to leave.


Same God, different interpretations of the Bible.
Ah .... back to the original goody, see i would disagree. The God I believe in loves all but has rules about certain things. That person is not the same person you believe in. (which is fine)

[provocougar]

Yes, exactly. I am saying all these things do discriminate. It's wrong. Why shouldn't I be able to play on the women's soccer team? If you say for the sake of competition, then that's where you're wrong too. Competition is for barbarians, not civilized people. We should all just play together. Why couldn't the church just allow me to do what I want and just let god do the judging?

Well, .... i really don't know how to respond to that! But rules, regulations, commandments (whatever you want to call them) exist to give us purpose and direction.

[u-dog]

My God and your God are two different things. Because i believe in a God that believes that homosexuality is wrong. Whereas soulforce members believe in a God that embraces and even promotes homosexuality. So therefore we must believe in different Gods? Any thoughts?

I'm sorry to hear this friend! Because since I worship the One, True God you must be worshipping some false idol ! and that's just really sad! But since you just tell your god what to think anyway... why not tell him to like gay people? Or ... do you not like gay people? Maybe thats where your god got this idea about not liking gay people in the first place! do you think?

[YoungTopper86]

Well, .... i really don't know how to respond to that! But rules, regulations, commandments (whatever you want to call them) exist to give us purpose and direction.

And they certainly do succeed at giving me "da-rection" (gays guys can be turned on by anything).

Hey provocougar, we should meet up when I pass through PA next time. I can show you da-rection for sure. We can experiment with each other's. I say don't knock til you knock it, you know?

[provocougar]

I'm sorry to hear this friend! Because since I worship the One, True God you must be worshipping some false idol ! and that's just really sad! But since you just tell your god what to think anyway... why not tell him to like gay people? Or ... do you not like gay people? Maybe thats where your god got this idea about not liking gay people in the first place! do you think?

Couldn't i say the exact same thing, but put my spin on it too!

I'm sorry to hear this friend! Because since I worship the One, True God you must be worshipping some false idol ! and that's just really sad! But since you just tell your god what to think anyway... why not tell him to not like gay people? Or ... do you like gay people? Maybe thats where your god got this idea about liking gay people in the first place! do you think?

[YoungTopper86]

I'm sorry to hear this friend! Because since I worship the One, True God you must be worshipping some false idol ! and that's just really sad! But since you just tell your god what to think anyway... why not tell him to like gay people? Or ... do you not like gay people? Maybe thats where your god got this idea about not liking gay people in the first place! do you think?

Interesting perspective u-dog, you. I think it is convenient that provo was born straight (is that politically correct?) and his god feels gay is wrong... I would like to hear provo's comment to that too.

[u-dog]

Well, .... i really don't know how to respond to that! But rules, regulations, commandments (whatever you want to call them) exist to give us purpose and direction.

You need a new god Provo! If your religion teaches that "rules, regulations, and commandments give us purpose" it really sucks! My God is way better! He gave his life to wipe away my sins and then invited me into this cool relationship where I can experience joy and purpose and the powerful sense of being surrounded by love. he invites me into the process of co-creating the world! and sharing really GOOD news with others about forgiveness of sins and abundant life promised to all!

he even suggested (well actually itwas his son, Jesus) that following the rules and regulations and commandments could help you pretty up the outside of your tomb but that unless you are inwardly transformed by a relationship with him that the corpse inside would still stink. He wasn't so big on the whole "rules" thing because he understood himself to be the fulfillment of those rules.

[YoungTopper86]

Okay, so provo has a good point. How can you KNOW you have the TRUE god, anyway?

[dsdrane]

dsdrane - I have been in those shoes, we all have. When we are in a belief system we don't adhere to, we walk away. We find somewhere else. Which is what BYU offers, they don't force the Honor Code on you, but if you attend there, you follow the rules, and if not they invite you to leave.

And which shoes would those be?

"...they invite you to leave"...how exactly does that work?

In a perfect world, every gayling out there would know by the end of high school what their particular sexual orientation was and would know to steer clear from schools where this particular part of personhood would not be kosher. (Fortunately for my team, this is already happening in many places, so, from my point of view, there's hope.) However, as you know, this is largely not the case.

As a student yourself, you must know the tremendous pressures placed on young people at this time in their lives: they are still tied to their parents financially; they are tremendously affected by what their peers think; their worldview is just beginning to open ever so slightly; and they're bridging that gap between childhood and adulthood. On top of all this, you have hormones bouncing all over the place; you have crushes; you have puppy love; your school or community may forbid contact, but no one seems to be able to let your heart in on that particular pact.

It's a lot, no? Pressure to perform; pressure to fit in; pressure to obey; pressure to please.

Now what happens if, say, you're a boy and your heart falls for another boy.

Oh, man, you are so screwed. What do you do? You fight it, of course. Or you hide it. Maybe you even try to play along. Worst case, you kill yourself.

Let's not shrink from the most important reason why Soulforce (if I may be so bold...and, just so you know, I'm not authorized to speak for them) does what it does by shining a light onto places and onto issues most people don't know or care about: they do it to save lives -- lives in the living, breathing sense and lives in the sense of what do you do with the life God has given you.

GLBT teens and young adults are many times more likely to commit suicide than their straight counterparts. And, if they do survive childhood and college and their communities to get to a place where they don't have to "play along" anymore, many are racked with guilt and depression.

So, the next time you hear of someone oh-so-pleasantly "invited to leave" a BYU campus, take a moment to consider what that might mean for the person being sent away. And take another moment to ask yourself how you'll explain to God on your judgment day why you saw no problem with that.

[u-dog]

Couldn't i say the exact same thing, but put my spin on it too!

I'm sorry to hear this friend! Because since I worship the One, True God you must be worshipping some false idol ! and that's just really sad! But since you just tell your god what to think anyway... why not tell him to not like gay people? Or ... do you like gay people? Maybe thats where your god got this idea about liking gay people in the first place! do you think?


My point exactly Provo.

[provocougar]

You need a new god Provo! If your religion teaches that "rules, regulations, and commandments give us purpose" it really sucks! My God is way better!

Since i don't know how to grab multiple quotes i'll just have to answer one at a time. So then... we do agree that we believe in Different Gods then. You are saying that my God sucks so then yours must be the "true" one? Right? Also, i was just commenting on how rules and such give us direction for our good, not that the other stuff you mentioned wasn't important. So here is a question i would pose to all. What happens when we die? and how will we be judged?

[provocougar]

Okay, so provo has a good point. How can you KNOW you have the TRUE god, anyway?

My belief is that you come to know the true God through honest, sincere, DEDICATED searching and then can the spirit can testify to you of its trueness, I know its hard to describe, but so is trying to describe how salt tastes.

[u-dog]

Okay, so provo has a good point. How can you KNOW you have the TRUE god, anyway?

How does anyone know ?

I was introduced to the scriptures of the Old and New Testament by parents, friends, and grandparents. Those two testaments introduced me to the person of Jesus Christ. They allowed me to stand at the foot of the cross and look up at the dying God/Man. I came, (by the power of the Holy Spirit) to understand that what I was looking at was the heart of the God of the universe. The one who created me. I gave my life to him and haven't ever looked back (much). he is the one who gives me purpose and direction. He is the one who guides my footsteps. he is the the one who taught be about Justice and compassion.

And... as they say... the rest is history.

[u-dog]

So here is a question i would pose to all. What happens when we die? and how will we be judged?


That's easy! When I die I will stand before the throne of God wrapped in the righteousness of Christ !!! I will be judged according to HIS righteousness. Period. Paragraph.

Pretty cool huh?

[YoungTopper86]

How does anyone know ?

I was introduced to the scriptures of the Old and New Testament by parents, friends, and grandparents. Those two testaments introduced me to the person of Jesus Christ. They allowed me to stand at the foot of the cross and look up at the dying God/Man. I came, (by the power of the Holy Spirit) to understand that what I was looking at was the heart of the God of the universe. The one who created me. I gave my life to him and haven't ever looked back (much). he is the one who gives me purpose and direction. He is the one who guides my footsteps. he is the the one who taught be about Justice and compassion.

And... as they say... the rest is history.

That sounds great, but I have a question: If you are anything like me, then you were first taught that being gay is against god. Therefore, when I started acknowledging my feelings for other males, I felt like I was betraying god. So, in my case, instead of deciding god really has no problem with it and I can continue to worship him and be saved, I turned away altogether. How did you overcome your feelings that god is against you if that was the first thing you learned? I want to worship god and be saved, but I feel I am wrong in his eyes because of what I've always been taught. I just can't quite shake that feeling.

[provocougar]

Let's not shrink from the most important reason why Soulforce (if I may be so bold...and, just so you know, I'm not authorized to speak for them) does what it does by shining a light onto places and onto issues most people don't know or care about: they do it to save lives -- lives in the living, breathing sense and lives in the sense of what do you do with the life God has given you..... So, the next time you hear of someone oh-so-pleasantly "invited to leave" a BYU campus, take a moment to consider what that might mean for the person being sent away. And take another moment to ask yourself how you'll explain to God on your judgment day why you saw no problem with that.

Come on now, you can't honestly believe that everyone lives in a bubble. If someone is gay nowadays, plenty of venues and groups exist to support them. There is already enough "shining of lights" going on that people with issues know who/where to turn to.
On the last note, if i start ranting and raving, swearing and giving out death threats on this site i will get kicked out, because i signed an agreement. Same thing goes with BYU, you sign an agreement (honor code) if you break it they can ask you to leave. Everyone knows this going in. Another thing is that it isn't fair to the other people that would live the honor code but were not excepted to BYU. The person breaking the rules is displacing someone that would willingly.

[u-dog]

That sounds great, but I have a question: If you are anything like me, then you were first taught that being gay is against god. Therefore, when I started acknowledging my feelings for other males, I felt like I was betraying god. So, in my case, instead of deciding god really has no problem with it and I can continue to worship him and be saved, I turned away altogether. How did you overcome your feelings that god is against you if that was the first thing you learned? I want to worship god and be saved, but I feel I am wrong in his eyes because of what I've always been taught. I just can't quite shake that feeling.


Youngtopper,

fortunately for me I WASN"T taught that first thing. I was taught first thing that God loved me and would DO ANYTHING to bring me home and wrap me in his arms (up to and including offering his son as sacrifice on my behalf) I learned that there was NOTHING I could do to stop God from loving me.

I was also raised by loving parents who embodied this unconditional love in everything they did and said. My mother's absolute FAVORITE Sunday school song was "RED AND YELLOW BLACK AND WHITE, THEY ARE PRECIOUS IN HIS SIGHT ... JESUS LOVES THE LITTLE CHILDREN OF THE WORLD" She believed that Gospel of radical inclusion fiercely and ... silly me... I believed her. When I discovered that I liked boys better than girls, it never crossed my mind that God might hate me for it.

I still struggled hard NOT to be gay (and PRAYED without ceasing) but that was more because I was afraid of the hatred of human beings. I even got married and had kids because I was afraid of being tossed out of polite company. I'm still married as it turns out. but I stay married now because I love my wife and she loves me and we've watched a lot of water flow under the bridge together and its hard to imagine life without her. But... sex is pretty much non-existant and our life together hasn't been easy. We continue to work together to make our life the best it can be in every way (including sex) but I would in no way hold up my decisions as a model for others!!

Find the person that you can love with your WHOLE SELF and with your WHOLE LIFE and "Cleave" to that person (whatever "Cleave" means :confused: ) You will please God in that way (but you WON'T earn salvation that way -- salvation can't be earned-- just accepted)

Youngtopper, GOD DOES LOVE YOU !! YOU CAN WORSHIP AND SERVE AND LOVE GOD AS A GAY MAN JUST AS SURELY AND FULLY AS IF YOU WERE A STRAIGHT MAN!!

I used to wonder why it was that God refused to "deliver me" from being gay. I prayed so hard and so earnestly for that. Looking back I now realize the reason. I don't just "have gay feelings" I AM GAY. In order to take my GAYNESS away he would have needed to destroy me. Had God made me Straight, he would have made me into someone else. Someone ... not me. God loves me too much to have done such a thing. I believe this ABSOLUTELY.

Dave

[dsdrane]

So, in my case, instead of deciding god really has no problem with it and I can continue to worship him and be saved, I turned away altogether. How did you overcome your feelings that god is against you if that was the first thing you learned? I want to worship god and be saved, but I feel I am wrong in his eyes because of what I've always been taught. I just can't quite shake that feeling.

Lil'Top...you will shake it in time, but you're going to have to unlearn some things.

First and foremost, you have to unlearn the belief that just because someone fervently believes something doesn't make it true. Your fellow non-ex-LDSers know that what they know is 100% correct. Why do you suppose that is? Because that's what they've always known. And it suits them just fine. Why on Earth rock the boat?? And, just to make sure they never saw anything outside the safety and certainty of their own world, they went to a Mormon institution of higher learning.

So, it is with rectitude, certainty, and no little condescension that they can feel ok about the fact that there is no room for LDSers like you. But, hey, they don't make the rules, God did, right?

So, now, ask yourself...what about all these other denominations, other religions, or a lack of religion altogether. Some have viewpoints like your old church, and some have wildly different views.

Who's correct? How do we know?

I, only recently (and I'm now 40), decided to throw my hat in with the Episcopalians. I followed my heart and my brain. It was that simple.

Ultimately, I could care less whether p-cougar thinks one God is different from the other. It simply doesn't signify. P-cougar is free to worhip however P-cougar wants, that's the beauty of this country of ours. And, likewise, you and I, can find our own paths.

I would urge you to swim around these threads, as well as to check out www.gaychristian.net. Read the posts, ask more questions; only you can find the right path for you. The only thing you must do is love yourself and know that God loves you, too. The rest will solve itself.

Pax,

David

[provocougar]

Lil Top - Just as easily as others can give opinion so can I. So instead of "shaking" it, why don't you embrace it and come back to the Gospel. Open arms always exist. Repentance is a true principle of the gospel, everyone has to do it.

[YoungTopper86]

dsdrane and u-dog, you two are very sweet! You'll have to forgive me if I haven't yet learned how to handle myself. I'm new to the site and I've only recently "come out of the closet". Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean I've told everyone in my case. I hope I can find myself as you two have described. It sounds wonderful! Thanks again!

[kara speltz]

Come on now, you can't honestly believe that everyone lives in a bubble. If someone is gay nowadays, plenty of venues and groups exist to support them. There is already enough "shining of lights" going on that people with issues know who/where to turn to. On the last note, if i start ranting and raving, swearing and giving out death threats on this site i will get kicked out, because i signed an agreement. Same thing goes with BYU, you sign an agreement (honor code) if you break it they can ask you to leave. Everyone knows this going in. Another thing is that it isn't fair to the other people that would live the honor code but were not excepted to BYU. The person breaking the rules is displacing someone that would willingly.

Oh, I wish that were true. One of my jobs is to answer Mel White's emails. I can't tell you how many times I've heard suicide stories. Not to mention the fact that transgenders and gays get murdered at a greater rate than statistics show straights do. Transgenders are murdered at a rate even higher than Afro-American teenage boys are. And years ago when my son was just a teenager, I recall the figure for young Afro American males was something like 1 in 5 would be murdered! T's rate is even greater than that.

It was less than a month ago, we received a letter about another gay teen committing suicide just because they couldn't figure out how to resolve the conflict of loving God and being gay.

Another letter that came in the same time as the letter about the suicide was even sadder. It was about a young gay high schooler who was being physically abused by his father because his father had learned he was gay. The abuse got so bad that he finally fought back and ended up killing his dad.

I recall just a year or so ago, meeting a young woman who was the daughter of a baptist minister. She told me that she read "Stranger at the Gate," with a razor blade in her hand.

You have no idea of the suffering these teachings create.

kara

[u-dog]

dsdrane and u-dog, you two are very sweet! You'll have to forgive me if I haven't yet learned how to handle myself. I'm new to the site and I've only recently "come out of the closet". Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean I've told everyone in my case. I hope I can find myself as you two have described. It sounds wonderful! Thanks again!


Stick around Kiddo !! There's way sweeter people here than the two of us! Just wait till Zerbie signs on! she is way sweet!

[dsdrane]

Sure everyone has to do it.

Corporally, I do it every Sunday at the Holy Eucharist service at my church.

Individually, I do it at least once a day, just God and me, mano-a-mano.

The only catch is: I don't ask for forgiveness of my homosexuality because there is no reason to...at least not in my church. But even that is beside the point, because I do not need a particular denomination or creed to back up my 110% certainty that God could care less whether gay or straight.

Or whether you are Mormon or not.

In fact, I bet my earthly life and my eternal life on it.

-d.

P.S. On a personal note, could you please see to it that my cousin Lisa is treated better. You see, she lives out in SLC but is non-Mormon and feels that folks aren't very friendly. Anything you could do would be really appreciated.

[provocougar]

Oh, I wish that were true. .....
You have no idea of the suffering these teachings create.


I really would like to comment on Kara's comment on a deeper scale but I need to get home and mow the lawn. There are thousands of people, young and old who commit suicide for various reasons. I bet there are more deaths realted to work and school pressure than anything else. But life has to go on. I'd like to give my parable of the popcorn. You know not every kernel pops in the bag, and what do you do with the ones that don't pop, you toss them out. Life is like a pressure cooker, everyone,... EVERYONE is under some type of pressure, they feel the heat, so when the heat and pressue is on, some people choose to give up while others perform! And it usually doesn't matter how big the performance is, as long as you pop! So that is my advise to all, just give it your best shot.

[u-dog]

I really would like to comment on Kara's comment on a deeper scale but I need to get home and mow the lawn. There are thousands of people, young and old who commit suicide for various reasons. I bet there are more deaths realted to work and school pressure than anything else. But life has to go on. I'd like to give my parable of the popcorn. You know not every kernel pops in the bag, and what do you do with the ones that don't pop, you toss them out. Life is like a pressure cooker, everyone,... EVERYONE is under some type of pressure, they feel the heat, so when the heat and pressue is on, some people choose to give up while others perform! And it usually doesn't matter how big the performance is, as long as you pop! So that is my advise to all, just give it your best shot.

Son,

You REALLY need to get a new religion! I understand that the LDS church is big out your way. Why don't you give them a try?

[dsdrane]

And it usually doesn't matter how big the performance is, as long as you pop! So that is my advise to all, just give it your best shot.

Some of us just pop with a little more pizzazz, is all.

And it is beautiful in God's sight.

:cool:

[BrentRichards]

I really would like to comment on Kara's comment on a deeper scale but I need to get home and mow the lawn. There are thousands of people, young and old who commit suicide for various reasons. I bet there are more deaths realted to work and school pressure than anything else. But life has to go on. I'd like to give my parable of the popcorn. You know not every kernel pops in the bag, and what do you do with the ones that don't pop, you toss them out. Life is like a pressure cooker, everyone,... EVERYONE is under some type of pressure, they feel the heat, so when the heat and pressue is on, some people choose to give up while others perform! And it usually doesn't matter how big the performance is, as long as you pop! So that is my advise to all, just give it your best shot.

You did NOT just say people who suicide (for whatever reason) are "unpopped kernels" that we just "toss out." Did you? Lord have mercy on us all. What ever happened to "not a sparrow falls...?"

[andrewlittle]

You did NOT just say people who suicide (for whatever reason) are "unpopped kernels" that we just "toss out." Did you? Lord have mercy on us all. What ever happened to "not a sparrow falls...?"

I liked u-dog's suggestion that this guy find some kind of faith - an LDS church might do some good. I have known many, many LDS folks - still count a good number of them as friends - but they all show a great deal of compassion and caring for God's children and creation.

Sometimes, in each and every church, you find someone who has no compassion, no heart, no concept of loving neighbor - and, yet, they still claim to be people of faith. I can't argue with that, but I do think most churches are embarrased by them.

I wonder which comes first - the suicide or being told they're "unpopped kernels" and worthy only of tossing out. That would be quite the evangelism tool, I think.

[Daniel]

Come on now, you can't honestly believe that everyone lives in a bubble. If someone is gay nowadays, plenty of venues and groups exist to support them. There is already enough "shining of lights" going on that people with issues know who/where to turn to.

It's not about belief provo. It's about how gay students live and breath. You're not the first person here to suggest that students can simply up and leave and everything will be ok. It's doesn't work that way: young gay people in conservative colleges- by-and-large- do not have the financial resources, the emotional support of their parents, much less community support to just up and leave. They are products of an environemnt which teaches them to hate themselves. And that internalized homophobia isn't easily or readily overcome.

To suggest that there are enough "shining of lights" and a self-awarensess of 'who/where to turn to" on your part only show that you are living in a bubble.

[davidb]

If someone is gay nowadays, plenty of venues and groups exist to support them. There is already enough "shining of lights" going on that people with issues know who/where to turn to.

Well who knew that Provo was such a gay friendly place? With all these "shining of lights," why do so many of us waste our time in NY, SF, LA, Chicago, etc., when all the love and support that we need is right there...in Provo?

[BrentRichards]

Well who knew that Provo was such a gay friendly place? With all these "shining of lights," why do so many of us waste our time in NY, SF, LA, Chicago, etc., when all the love and support that we need is right there...in Provo?

Hey, c'mon over to Lancaster County ... the Amish are a heap affirming! In fact, all over conservative central PA, we're just loaded with gay affirming organizations, community centers, churches, workplaces ... oh, wait, no we're not. Sorry, I was thinking of somewhere else, I guess.

But what am I complaining about? If I don't like it here, all I have to do to change that is uproot my whole life, quit my job, tell my kids to say goodbye to their friends, pack the boxes and move to Castro, right? "Get back in your ghettos where you belong, you gays!" (Whoops, that was my "out loud" voice, wasn't it?) After all, the voice of the majority has spoken, and it tells us things aren't so bad for us after all. Whew! Glad we've cleared that up, I was beginning to get worried!

[Time to leave now, my sarcasm levels are well above normal limits]

[provocougar]

Hey, c'mon over to Lancaster County ... the Amish are a heap affirming! In fact, all over conservative central PA, we're just loaded with gay affirming organizations, community centers, churches, workplaces ... oh, wait, no we're not. Sorry, I was thinking of somewhere else, I guess.]

Maybe i will! I've always wanted to visit the Amish and since i live so close in Chester County! LOL, i don't know where people got the idea that I live in Provo, even though i did go to BYU. See, once again people just jump to conclusion and eat it up like piranhas!

I'm just saying that you sign an honor code to live a certain way at BYU. If you don't like it, don't sign it, they don't force you to. I had to sign agreements for my house, for my car, for my job, heck for the internet i'm using and even this website. If you agree to something and you don't adhere to it, you have no honor in my book, gay or straight!

[provocougar]

You did NOT just say people who suicide (for whatever reason) are "unpopped kernels" that we just "toss out." Did you? Lord have mercy on us all. What ever happened to "not a sparrow falls...?"

Correct, i didn't say that, but i'm saying that everyone feels pressure, some more than others some less!

[davidb]

Hey, c'mon over to Lancaster County ... the Amish are a heap affirming! In fact, all over conservative central PA, we're just loaded with gay affirming organizations, community centers, churches, workplaces ... oh, wait, no we're not.

I spent 20 years in central NY and 3 years in northeast PA, and I can tell you that, from my experience, the support centers and welcoming communities were there...but you had to drive to NYC to get to them.

I think I better stay here in the city with my good friend Lisa Douglas, who said "Darlin I love ya but give me Park Avenue.":)

[BrentRichards]

Maybe i will! I've always wanted to visit the Amish and since i live so close in Chester County! LOL, i don't know where people got the idea that I live in Provo, even though i did go to BYU. See, once again people just jump to conclusion and eat it up like piranhas!

I'm just saying that you sign an honor code to live a certain way at BYU. If you don't like it, don't sign it, they don't force you to. I had to sign agreements for my house, for my car, for my job, heck for the internet i'm using and even this website. If you agree to something and you don't adhere to it, you have no honor in my book, gay or straight!

I'm sorry, I'm getting heated and extremely sarcastic ... which doesn't help discussion.

And, by the way, you should come up and visit Amish Country, if you haven't.

But the point is, there is more to changing society than just changing laws, and that is what Soulforce is trying to do ... prevailing attitudes and prejudices have an immense effect on those surrounded by them, and "get up and go somewhere else" is not an okay suggestion to solve the problem. We could no more have said "Hey, move north!" to the millions of racial minorities mistreated in the American south for so many decades and even today (not exclusively, of course), even though their RIGHTS were/are technically protected by law. It's about societal change, and I for one won't apologize for advocating/working for it.

I would also suggest, Provo (your user name is where people got the idea you live in Provo, I'm sure), that your idea of "hey, you agreed to it" suggests to me (and I could be wrong) that you've not had the experience of being part of a despised minority. Many of us gay folk "agree" to a lot of things as part of a "cunning survival plan" (to quote transgendered comedian Eddie Izzard) to make it through our daily life. It reminds me of the comments I hear from youth in this tiny racially-uniform town I live in, when they make racial jokes in the presence of a minority kid: "He doesn't mind, he knows we're only joking." Of course he "doesn't mind..." if you were the only black kid in town, do you really think you'd be ready to tell off all your friends for their racism and end up totally alone?

Just a thought.

[BrentRichards]

Correct, i didn't say that, but i'm saying that everyone feels pressure, some more than others some less!

Good! ... But your analogy was potentially very offensive.

In fact, there are some pretty solid numbers to tell us how often this happens. According to a US Dept of Health and Human Services study in 1989, as many as 30% of all teen suicides are GLBT youth. Considering that GLBT youth make up, at most 10% of the population, that means they're at least 3 times more likely to commit suicide than straight peers. If the population of GLBT youth is more in the 3% range (as the lowest estimates say) that would mean they are 10 times more likely to suicide. That should give us pause ... especially as Christians!

[Daniel]

I'm just saying that you sign an honor code to live a certain way at BYU. If you don't like it, don't sign it, they don't force you to. I had to sign agreements for my house, for my car, for my job, heck for the internet i'm using and even this website. If you agree to something and you don't adhere to it, you have no honor in my book, gay or straight!

I guess it hadn't even occurred to you that a young person, when they enter a conserative school with the blessing and push of their parents, hasn't even dealt with the fact that they are gay? And I have to be frank: from all that you have said so far here, I don't get the impression that you give two-hoots about gay people, the discrimination they face in our society or what oppression and discrimination does to them. I understand you think you are looking out for the interests of your school, but the interests of real people with real concerns is what we are talking about here.

Can you see that?

[provocougar]

I guess it hadn't even occurred to you that a young person, when they enter a conserative school with the blessing and push of their parents, hasn't even dealt with the fact that they are gay? And I have to be frank: from all that you have said so far here, I don't get the impression that you give two-hoots about gay people, the discrimination they face in our society or what oppression and discrimination does to them. I understand you think you are looking out for the interests of your school, but the interests of real people with real concerns is what we are talking about here.

Can you see that?

I was not being rude or condesending, i have been completely cordial up to this point but you are the one telling me "I'm not a real person" and i guess i don't have "real" concerns either. Where are my "two-hoots" about my feelings and thoughts huh. I guess you must be more important then me.

so, can you see that?

[BrentRichards]

OK, everybody breathe. More heat than light at the moment, I'm afraid!

[provocougar]

I would also suggest, Provo (your user name is where people got the idea you live in Provo, I'm sure), that your idea of "hey, you agreed to it" suggests to me (and I could be wrong) that you've not had the experience of being part of a despised minority. Many of us gay folk "agree" to a lot of things as part of a "cunning survival plan" (to quote transgendered comedian Eddie Izzard) to make it through our daily life. Just a thought.

Enjoyed the thoughts, you must not be a phillies fan! LOL. And growing up in Oklahoma (the bible belt) as an LDS kid where there are 3 out of 900 kids (so, there are more homosexual kids than LDS) in high school. Kids and adults would ridicule us, my football coach would crack jokes around the team about it, ...... i know about persecution. There are more anti-mormon books out there than any other religion, There are more hatred filled books and writings written about Joseph Smith and the church leaders than probably all the books ever written about presidents of the united states. Most christian churches don't even admit that the LDS church is christian, they think it is a cult, many of you are already thinking this. so yes, I know perfectly well what it is like to be disdained. But the church continues growing and growing, we do not discriminate or persecute, we only invite others to live the Gospel.

[BrentRichards]

Enjoyed the thoughts, you must not be a phillies fan! LOL. And growing up in Oklahoma (the bible belt) as an LDS kid where there are 3 out of 900 kids (so, there are more homosexual kids than LDS) in high school. Kids and adults would ridicule us, my football coach would crack jokes around the team about it, ...... i know about persecution. There are more anti-mormon books out there than any other religion, There are more hatred filled books and writings written about Joseph Smith and the church leaders than probably all the books ever written about presidents of the united states. Most christian churches don't even admit that the LDS church is christian, they think it is a cult, many of you are already thinking this. so yes, I know perfectly well what it is like to be disdained. But the church continues growing and growing, we do not discriminate or persecute, we only invite others to live the Gospel.

Fair enough, but consider that many gay people fear having even their closest friends and family know about their sexuality for fear of losing them (and their fear is often justified) ... and I suspect you've never heard anyone say "You're LDS? That's sick! Ew! Disgusting! You pervert!" I am quite aware of how many Christians speak of the LDS, but have you ever been accused of being "a danger to children" or "a threat to the American family?" It is a question of degree. There is a difference between being disdained and misunderstood for your beliefs (an experience I've also had as a conservative evangelical) and being outright despised and hated for your very existence.

I must go ... but in parting, for the record, no, I'm not a Philly fan.

[Daniel]

I was not being rude or condesending, i have been completely cordial up to this point but you are the one telling me "I'm not a real person" and i guess i don't have "real" concerns either. Where are my "two-hoots" about my feelings and thoughts huh. I guess you must be more important then me.

so, can you see that?

I can see that you have your point of view and aren't willing (or able) to see another perspective. And for the record, I didn't say you were not a 'real person'. Of course you have real concerns and real feelings, What I pointed out is that- for all intent and purposes- you have repeatedly glossed over the concerns of gay students on this thread and what discrimination and oppression has done to them- and is doing to them as we speak. Instead of thinking about what was written to you, you chose, instead, to attack.

I am sorry you are offended. There isn't any nice way to tell someone they have a blind spot. And you seem to have a blind spot as far as the issues that face gay people.

Out of sight, out out mind?

Perhaps, when you aren't feeling so defensive, you will give the matter more thought.

[provocougar]

I am sorry you are offended. There isn't any nice way to tell someone they have a blind spot. And you seem to have a blind spot as far as the issues that face gay people.

I was not offended. Can't the fence swing both ways, can't i say you have a blind spot? So it all comes back to what truth is. So what is the truth?, and how do we find it? Some people say the bible, some people say personal revelation, others say other people. However, i think we can both agree on the fact that truth is absolute, it doesn't change. So you can say i'm wrong and i can say your wrong, but someone is right, ... right? so how do we know? That my friends is the question. So back to the original posting about BYU. I loved BYU and I went there because i wanted the structure and atmosphere that exists there, isn't that viable for me?

[davidb]

This whole back-and-forth reminds me of a discussion my old minister (gay, son of conservative Baptist minister) had with his mother, about 20 years after he had come out to his family.

She said:

You know, for all these years I have been praying, every day, asking God to change you. I'm tired. Do you know what I pray now? I ask God to change me. :cool:

[Zerbie]

That sounds great, but I have a question: If you are anything like me, then you were first taught that being gay is against god. Therefore, when I started acknowledging my feelings for other males, I felt like I was betraying god. So, in my case, instead of deciding god really has no problem with it and I can continue to worship him and be saved, I turned away altogether. How did you overcome your feelings that god is against you if that was the first thing you learned? I want to worship god and be saved, but I feel I am wrong in his eyes because of what I've always been taught. I just can't quite shake that feeling.

Hi LittleTop, I haven't seen you posting before, so, welcome. :love:

I am so sorry to read your sad words. :'( :love:

How are we supposed to unlearn what we were taught as small children? To discern what's really going on, not just what our parents, who were mere people and not gods, happened to think or believe when we were small? Indeed, the million-dollar question.:rolleyes:

Take things slowly LittleTop. :love: Be with yourself for a while. Let your sense of self develop before making any sweeping decisions or pronouncements. You may with time come to an understanding deep within that God loves you precisely as you are, gay included, and be able to shine forward in life confident in that. :shield: No less a power than the God of the Universe holds you safe in His heart.

One thing I know (know with my bones, and deeper than my bones, my entire soul): God loves all his babies, and sexual orientation is not a determining factor in whether or not we receive His limitless love. It is without condition.

I can only suggest that, when you feel ready, you approach God in deep prayer and reverence. Bring this concern to Him. Surrender your doubts to Him. Pray. And wait. Let His spirit speak to you. You will have to be very quiet and very peaceful, so as to clear your mind of your own preconceptions, your worst fears, your doubts, and the voices of other people: that includes mine and Provocougar's and everyone else's. Do not take us to speak for God. We can't possibly. We can only tell you what we have experienced and point you towards those things which have helped us.

Take your concern directly to God. Have the courage to ask the Lord Himself. You are His beloved child. He made you because he loves and wants you. Always remember that.

[Daniel]

I was not offended. Can't the fence swing both ways, can't i say you have a blind spot? So it all comes back to what truth is. So what is the truth?, and how do we find it? Some people say the bible, some people say personal revelation, others say other people. However, i think we can both agree on the fact that truth is absolute, it doesn't change. So you can say i'm wrong and i can say your wrong, but someone is right, ... right? so how do we know? That my friends is the question. So back to the original posting about BYU. I loved BYU and I went there because i wanted the structure and atmosphere that exists there, isn't that viable for me?

If you say so, however, I read the meaning of your words differently. Sure. You can say I have a blind spot. But my blind spot- and I'm positive I have one- has little to do with the fact that I know I am gay and am Ok the way I am. You- assumably- are not gay and are trying to tell me by the assertion of your 'truth' -in so many words- that my reality is somehow an illusion. That's the bottom line here as I see it. I'm not saying you're wrong, I am simply saying that your blind spot- your lack of coherent information- can inform you of nothing about my experience- or any other gay person's for that matter. Therefore, since you- as yet- show little evidence of being open to anything but your own thoughts, there is little to 'discuss'.

You may think you know all that you need to know about us folk, but I beg to differ.

When you talk about the truth and the bible or your BOM, I can already 'hear' where you are going to go. It's pretty transparent to someone like me who's formerly AG. Been around that block a hundred times.

No. We can't agree that the truth is absolute. That's a stretch I don't feel comfortable making for the simple reason that my life experience has taught me that assertions of the sort are too often subject to flawed egos. From there one usually goes on to assert WHAT that truth is. Wars and the like usually result.

As I posted earlier on another thread..

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=27146&postcount=3

I don't see discussions of this sort of having anything to do with who is right and who is wrong. That way leads to warfare as well.

So ...no. I don't agree that is the question. That may be YOUR question. But I won't be able to answer it for you. I can only tell you my perspective and how I arrived at it. Besides which, I do not feel comfortable speaking for the Almighty. It takes a mighty big ego to do that.

Etiher that or a prophet. And they are never welcome in their own country.

[dsdrane]

I loved BYU and I went there because i wanted the structure and atmosphere that exists there, isn't that viable for me?

Of course, it's viable for you.

All many of us are asking -- and you brought it up, Lamb -- is that you try to understand how, for some who go with exactly the same reasons you did, it suddenly becomes unviable.

Can you understand how painful it must be for someone who wants deparately to be there -- wants to continue to be there -- to suddenly understand that, if they speak the truth, they will have it taken all away?

I would posit that, no one who has never been in the position of being ready -- mentally, emotionally, financially (if necessary) -- to come out to their parents understands this. You literally have to be ready for your parents -- your parents! -- to reject you.

Who does something like that? To my mind, God, himself, should send a lightning bolt into their hearts, but it happens all the time. I don't care what the reasons are; THAT is a sin.

Coming out to your community and/or school is just as tough.

Provo, you keep bringing it back to you: couldn't you make the same argument; didn't you have to sign the same Honor Code; didn't you feel the same pressure.... Does everything have to be equated with something in your own life to be valid? Are you some sort of Golden Mean of expectation and tolerance?

I would say no. Not even close.

The fact that you've stuck to this discussion so far tells me that you are struggling to understand all of this. I give you kudos for that. However, you'e got to go that one step further and imagine something you yourself don't know anything about. You have to go beyond yourself and walk in the shoes of, in this case, a young Mormon just coming to terms with his or her sexual orientation while at university.

Until you do, this thread can go on and on and get nowhere. I know for a fact that there are some in this community who are not even joining this thread because they are sick to death of having to explain this to yet another questioning person. And that's ok, because someone else will rise up to take their place.

And, by the way, not to sound hostile, but there will always be someone else to step into the breach...forever and ever, for as long as it takes. You and yours will not win this battle. Equal rights and equal treatment shall be the law of land one day.

I may not live to see it, but I have no doubt in its inevitability.

So, to you I say: join the fight, or get out of the way.

[kara speltz]

Of course, it's viable for you.

All many of us are asking -- and you brought it up, Lamb -- is that you try to understand how, for some who go with exactly the same reasons you did, it suddenly becomes unviable.

Can you understand how painful it must be for someone who wants deparately to be there -- wants to continue to be there -- to suddenly understand that, if they speak the truth, they will have it taken all away?

I would posit that, no one who has never been in the position of being ready -- mentally, emotionally, financially (if necessary) -- to come out to their parents understands this. You literally have to be ready for your parents -- your parents! -- to reject you.

Who does something like that? To my mind, God, himself, should send a lightning bolt into their hearts, but it happens all the time. I don't care what the reasons are; THAT is a sin.

Coming out to your community and/or school is just as tough.

Provo, you keep bringing it back to you: couldn't you make the same argument; didn't you have to sign the same Honor Code; didn't you feel the same pressure.... Does everything have to be equated with something in your own life to be valid? Are you some sort of Golden Mean of expectation and tolerance?

I would say no. Not even close.

The fact that you've stuck to this discussion so far tells me that you are struggling to understand all of this. I give you kudos for that. However, you'e got to go that one step further and imagine something you yourself don't know anything about. You have to go beyond yourself and walk in the shoes of, in this case, a young Mormon just coming to terms with his or her sexual orientation while at university.

Until you do, this thread can go on and on and get nowhere. I know for a fact that there are some in this community who are not even joining this thread because they are sick to death of having to explain this to yet another questioning person. And that's ok, because someone else will rise up to take their place.

And, by the way, not to sound hostile, but there will always be someone else to step into the breach...forever and ever, for as long as it takes. You and yours will not win this battle. Equal rights and equal treatment shall be the law of land one day.

I may not live to see it, but I have no doubt in its inevitability.
So, to you I say: join the fight, or get out of the way.

Martin Luther King said it best in his powerful, "Letter from a Birmingham Jail." "We who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to surface the hidden tension that is already alive... We must come to see that human progress never rolls in on the wheels of inevitability. It comes through the tireless efforts and persistent work of people willing to be coworkers with God and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation."

Thus, we cannot, we MUST not give up. kara

[Daniel]

Kara- thanks for King's words. :love:

[davidb]

I used to date someone in the Melchizedek Priesthood as well.

Mr. Provocougar, what do you think that means?

[Daniel]

You dated the same guy? :eek:

(cool pic David!)

[davidb]

I rather doubt it. I think there's more than one closeted Priest of Melchizedek out there.

[antonyh]

I used to date someone in the Melchizedek Priesthood as well.

Mr. Provocougar, what do you think that means?

So how was your experience?

[davidb]

Intense and a little scary. Remember the character in Angels in America? Just like that...but not as hot. Who am I kiddin.

[antonyh]

Intense and a little scary. Remember the character in Angels in America? Just like that...but not as hot. Who am I kiddin.

Did you ever see the movie Latter Days. I thought it was pretty good :applause:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latter_Days

http://www.latterdaysmovie.com/images/home_aaron.gif

[Daniel]

Didn't date a Mormon boy, but was friends with a nice fellow years ago. He played the double bass. Was gay gay gay, but couldn't deal with it. Don't know what became of him after he moved back to Utah. I'd like to think he is happy right now with some other Mormon fellow. But after watching Latter Days wonder about that. In some ways, I think coming out as gay in the Mormon church may be harder than it is for evangelicals.

Another thing: I live 5 blocks away from the Mormon Temple (is that the correct term?) here in NYC, the one that was featured in Angels in America. I pass the building every day on my way to work. It was renovated recently. Now has an angel on top- which points its trumpet West.

[davidb]

I'm a huge fan of that movie, mostly b/c of the very hot Elder Davis. From my experience, the "my way or the highway" attitude is really prevailing.

Interestingly enough, about 6 of my cousins, who were raised Baptist, converted to Mormonism (is that what its called? an ism?) after they moved to Arizona.

And, not to start a flame war with any LDS folk, but I loved the HBO series Big Love when it was on last year. I don't think that it was necessarily accurate at all, but it was really fascinating, and some of the actors were amazing.

[antonyh]

Didn't date a Mormon boy, but was friends with a nice fellow years ago. He played the double bass. Was gay gay gay, but couldn't deal with it. Don't know what became of him after he moved back to Utah. I'd like to think he is happy right now with some other Mormon fellow. But after watching Latter Days wonder about that. In some ways, I think coming out as gay in the Mormon church may be harder than it is for evangelicals.

Another thing: I live 5 blocks away from the Mormon Temple (is that the correct term?) here in NYC, the one that was featured in Angels in America. I pass the building every day on my way to work. It was renovated recently. Now has an angel on top- which points its trumpet West.

Yes I agree, it would be harder to come out in the Mormon church.

[Zerbie]

Not that I have ANY personal experience with this, but from what I have observed, it seems that cradle Mormons who are gay have a particularly brutal time dealing with what their church has taught about homosexuality.

I know a lot of Mormons. The ones I know who are gay have had a rough time of it with their church. One often tells me how much he wants to go back to church, but he is not allowed there because he is gay.

[u-dog]

A woman I dated in college (back in the 70's) came out as a Lesbian, got involved with an ex-mormon woman and they have lived happily ever after ever since (about 17 years now, if I haven't lost track). Her partner had a VERY rough time of it. She was totally shunned by her family and was alienated from her children (not her choice OR theirs) for years.

[Rick336]

Because i believe in a God that believes that homosexuality is wrong.

I'm confused. Which God is that?

Is he the one from the Bible that says slavery is okay but eating shellfish isn't?

Rick

[provocougar]

Ok, I see a lot of conversation has gone on through the night. Many people have dated an elder or a someone else in the church. I'm sure there are quite a few homosexuals in the LDS church. However, we see it as a different angle than most churches. I would say that people that claim to be LDS and are gay are not really LDS, because you can know them by their fruits. I don't know why people would even want to be mentioned with the LDS church if they were actively gay. What would be the point? Now I don't want any backlash about discrimination, we do invite everyone to come and be members of the church, I served a 2 year mission in Brasil where we baptized a young kid who had sexual relations with the same sex. It was an interesting process, but it happened.

….. Lets see, can't remember all the comments, but yes, I would say that being a member of the LDS church has the toughest demands, going back to pressure, and I'm sure it would be "brutal" to live with those sexual tendencies, … its hard, people crack, some people can't do it. But even coal can be made into diamonds with a little bit of pressure, heat and time. How can you think that the greatest glory isn't obtained by the greatest sacrifice? I'm not talking fanatical either. We just need to be humble and willing.

……..the join the fight or get out of the way comment…..mmmmm….. Isn't that what everyone says, so ditto.

I haven't seen those movies, just like I'm sure you wouldn't watch anti-gay movies or shows, I wouldn't watch those either.

And Antonyh, no I don't think he was serving the same God, in a sense, very tough to explain.

[Daniel]

….. Lets see, can't remember all the comments, but yes, I would say that being a member of the LDS church has the toughest demands, going back to pressure, and I'm sure it would be "brutal" to live with those sexual tendencies, … its hard, people crack, some people can't do it. But even coal can be made into diamonds with a little bit of pressure, heat and time. How can you think that the greatest glory isn't obtained by the greatest sacrifice? I'm not talking fanatical either. We just need to be humble and willing.

Can't remember all the comments? That's too bad. It's hard to have a conversation when the person who initiates the conversation starts bailing out of it and making excuses. Sorry provo...that's how you're coming across now. Making excuses.

It's not brutal to live with 'tendencies', is brutal to be gay and have to live with expressions of faith such as you expouse.

I guess we have very different worldviews: the only kind of squeeze I think is worth giving people is a hug.

If I haven't forgotten my musical theatre lore- diamonds are a girl's best friend.

[antonyh]

I would say that people that claim to be LDS and are gay are not really LDS, because you can know them by their fruits. I don't know why people would even want to be mentioned with the LDS church if they were actively gay. What would be the point?

The LDS guy I dated was born into the LDS church. He loved the church. He loved Jesus Christ. When puberty hit for him he discovered his sexual orientation, that he was gay. When he attended BYU he had a partner. They lived in a house with four other guys. They had to pretend that they were straight and late at night when everyone was a sleep, they would sneak into each other's rooms to be together.

He and his boyfriend feared discovery more than anything in the world. He knew that if he came out that he would be excommunicated from his church, would shame his entire family and would loose everything that was precious to him as a Mormon.

He left Utah to go to graduate school and I am sure to escape the situation where he had to lie about who he was and who he loved. He still loved his boyfriend in Utah and I hope they were able to find each other again. It was positions like yours that tore them apart.

Can you at least admit to how devistating this kind of scenario would be on one of your brothers?


And Antonyh, no I don't think he was serving the same God, in a sense, very tough to explain.


Sure it is because he does worship the same God.

[YoungTopper86]

Hi LittleTop, I haven't seen you posting before, so, welcome. :love:

I am so sorry to read your sad words. :'( :love:

How are we supposed to unlearn what we were taught as small children? To discern what's really going on, not just what our parents, who were mere people and not gods, happened to think or believe when we were small? Indeed, the million-dollar question.:rolleyes:

Take things slowly LittleTop. :love: Be with yourself for a while. Let your sense of self develop before making any sweeping decisions or pronouncements. You may with time come to an understanding deep within that God loves you precisely as you are, gay included, and be able to shine forward in life confident in that. :shield: No less a power than the God of the Universe holds you safe in His heart.

One thing I know (know with my bones, and deeper than my bones, my entire soul): God loves all his babies, and sexual orientation is not a determining factor in whether or not we receive His limitless love. It is without condition.

I can only suggest that, when you feel ready, you approach God in deep prayer and reverence. Bring this concern to Him. Surrender your doubts to Him. Pray. And wait. Let His spirit speak to you. You will have to be very quiet and very peaceful, so as to clear your mind of your own preconceptions, your worst fears, your doubts, and the voices of other people: that includes mine and Provocougar's and everyone else's. Do not take us to speak for God. We can't possibly. We can only tell you what we have experienced and point you towards those things which have helped us.

Take your concern directly to God. Have the courage to ask the Lord Himself. You are His beloved child. He made you because he loves and wants you. Always remember that.

Zerbie, thank you so much. Trust me, this all helps tremendously. I actually didn't expect to get this kind of help. Now that I am, and I see how much is available, I'd like to ask for some direction on a certain issue that needs to be addressed immediately for my own well being:

I come from friends, family, and a lifestyle not suitable or common for a gay boy. Basically, I come from a football fanatic father, a basketball fanatic mother, and a sports background myself. I played all the major sports and built a reputation as a masculine figure, you could say. Of course you can see my dilemma. I want to be open about my sexuality, but I still live in this same world. I will be an outcast, or at least a loner. I will stand out in a way that no one respects, but I need their respect. I need people to listen to me and follow me, because I'm in a leadership position. I've ever so slightly let my true self shine through in select situations with select people, just to see how they'd react, and it was scary. This struggle has actually started to destroy my self-confidence all together. Now I'm losing my ability to look people in the eye, even those that don't know the truth. I think I am paranoid that everyone can see the truth, even though I'm hiding it. This makes things worse. I'm losing everything now. If I could just be myself, I could be a million times better off, but that seems impossible. I don't speak as much anymore because I'm afraid I'll say the wrong things. It's that bad and much worse.

How can I make this transition? Or, how can I at least just go back to the way I was? I feel that even if I came out completely, and everyone surprisingly was supportive, I would still be super self-conscious because I know they don't respect me behind my back (trust me, I'm in those conversations now, but not the target). I feel the absolute and only hope is doing what provo says - to move away from everything. But, as you all have said, that's absolutely impossible!

Does anyone understand this? Can anyone help?

[dsdrane]

Can you at least admit to how devistating this kind of scenario would be on one of your fellow brothers?

Antonyh, would it matter if he did? He's not going to do anything about it, so what's the point?

Time to move on, Kids.

[shiningstones16]

Hello everyone, I am also LDS and a student at BYU-Idaho. I have been very curious about your organization since I heard about your visit to the school.

I just want to try to clarify Provo's statements a little if I can (it seems there is alot of deconstruction of statements in this forum, from booth sides, hope that all of us can have eyes to see what others are trying to say... not what it sounds like they are saying from our own perspective)

As members of the LDS church, we believe that when we accept Christs atonement and sacrifice for us, our hearts will be changed and we will desire to follow his teachings and comandments more than we desire to act for our personal desires. We believe that he knows what is best for us, that is why he taught us and gave us comandments, and continues to teach and give comandments today through a modern prophet and apostles. This requires sacrifice of personal desires by all who enter the LDS church. Believe me, there are things that all of us desire that we are taught to be inapropriat, not just LGBT. But we are okay with the sacrifice, because we believe he knows us better than we know ourselves, and that through his teachings and comandments, the truth will set us free.

I know a few "gay" members of the church. I even know a few in positions of leadership. I know it is not the case for all memebrs of our church who are attracted to the same gender... but these men are happy and have accepted that they must sacrifice their personal desires for the kingdom of God. They have forsaken themselves for the sake of Christ's kingdom just like we all strive to do. I look up to these individuals for guidance through my strugles.

There are many in our church who strugle to find their place. And, our hearts go out to them. I also know families who unfortunantley just don't know how to deal with the orientation of a child. This is increadably sad, especialy because of the importance of family to people of our faith. I know that they love their child, but they do not know how to express that love and express that they do not accept their childs actions... so they regretably cut themselves off from the situation. You are all right in that we as LDS need to be more tolerant of the choices God's children make. But you also need to accept that it is not something we can accept as blameless before God. We can still be friends and learn from each others diverse perspectives. We can still have respect and compasion for each other and we should learn and cultivate our ability to do this. But we cannot accept this behavior and if you cannot accept our belief, so be it. Let's encourage acceptance of the rest of us to promote a better life for all.

[dsdrane]

How can I make this transition? Or, how can I at least just go back to the way I was? I feel that even if I came out completely, and everyone surprisingly was supportive, I would still be super self-conscious because I know they don't respect me behind my back (trust me, I'm in those conversations now, but not the target). I feel the absolute and only hope is doing what provo says - to move away from everything. But, as you all have said, that's absolutely impossible!

Does anyone understand this? Can anyone help?

Lil'Top, you're not the first to go throught this, nor, sadly, will you be the last. If we all do our jobs right, however, fewer and fewer will have to go through this over time. That's something to fight for, eh?

You cannot go back to the way you were, and God doesn't want you to, anymore than He wants an acorn, once germinated and sprouting, to somehow squish itself back into the acorn. You are God's work of art (like we sing in church at a baptism), and you are meant to develop in the unique way God has intended for you.

He never said it would be easy, but He always promises it'll be worthwhile.

Why don't you trust Him? Because He's thrown you a curve-ball? Because His plan doesn't match your own? (What's that joke: How do you make God laugh? By making your own plans. Something like that.)

Also, you need to work on respecting yourself, that's when you'll garner true and lasting respect from others.

Finally, just remember that to lie to yourself and to others is to lie to God to to make a mockery of his design for you. No true godly person would ask you to do that, would they?

We're -- and tons of others -- are here for you. We've all been there to one degree or another.

[antonyh]

There are many in our church who strugle to find their place. And, our hearts go out to them. I also know families who unfortunantley just don't know how to deal with the orientation of a child. This is increadably sad, especialy because of the importance of family to people of our faith. I know that they love their child, but they do not know how to express that love and express that they do not accept their childs actions... so they regretably cut themselves off from the situation. You are all right in that we as LDS need to be more tolerant of the choices God's children make. But you also need to accept that it is not something we can accept as blameless before God. We can still be friends and learn from each others diverse perspectives. We can still have respect and compasion for each other and we should learn and cultivate our ability to do this. But we cannot accept this behavior and if you cannot accept our belief, so be it. Let's encourage acceptance of the rest of us to promote a better life for all.

You're saying that Mormons cherish the family, but if a child is gay, that some families turn them away. Makes me wonder if there is any real depth to the Mormon's commitment to family.

Did you know that 30% to 40% of homeless youth are gay?

[shiningstones16]

Once again, I hope we can see what others are trying to say, instead of deconstructing it into what we want them to say.

I also expressed regret on this topic. All comunities have members that strugle with aplying their beliefs. Even, from what has been said here, many Gay Christians strugle to see themselves as accepted by God. The LDS church teaches us to focus on our behavior, not other's. I know that in the case of the family I refered too, they are working very hard on learning to express their love to their son.

And yes, there are some families that are more concerned about the behavior of a child than how they treat that child... but, hopefuly they will learn that this is not Christ's way. We all need to look inward, learn what we need to change about ourselves... and let that light shine forth. Why is there sooo much time spent by people trying to change others?

[suzer1013]

My experience, for what it's worth....

My "best friend" throughout high school and much of my young adult life was Mormon. When we were 16, she told me I was going to hell because I was an Episcopalian. I (gently) challenged her reasoning and theology, forgave her for her comment (she did not back down from her stance), and we moved on with our friendship.

Though I was never very popular with the guys in high school, I did have my eye on one young man. I talked about wanting to date him a lot. I wanted so much to fit in with the other girls, to be dating someone, so everyone could see that I was attractive and desirable -- but I never had much luck in that area. (Perhaps I gave off a lesbian "vibe" -- who knows?) My LDS "best friend" ended up dating him, despite the fact that she knew I had hoped to date him. I struggled with my feelings of jealousy and resentment, but forgave her and moved on.

When she got married, my "best friend" asked me to be the maid of honor at her wedding, but then proceeded to tell me I could not attend the temple ceremony because I am not Mormon. I could attend a beach ceremony where non-Mormons would be allowed. I could not afford to travel to Hawaii for the wedding, so the question was moot, but it was somewhat offensive to know I was not even allowed in her church for the wedding! The doors of my church are open to everyone.

When I finally told my "best friend" that I am a lesbian, she said something about the fact that she would not discriminate against me and she then proceeded to never speak to me again. I can only imagine, but I suspect she thinks I will somehow infect her children with gayness if I am near them, or will perhaps make her see that GLBT people are loving, kind and caring, and she will have to rethink her stance on the issue. Since she doesn't want to be challenged in her beliefs, it's easier to shun me and stay insulated in her little LDS world.

Is this the Christian love that the LDS church teaches?

I love my friend, even though we haven't spoken in years. I still wish for a friendship with her. We did have some fun times together, despite the moments of hurt. I guess many friendships are like that. When I was in high school, I even wished I could escape my family and live with hers. There was a lot I liked about her religion, but that was before I knew much about it. As I've learned more (especially after being told I was going to hell because I wasn't Mormon), I've seen both the good and bad side of the LDS church. Most Mormons I've known were good and kind people, but if you aren't Mormon, you are shunned -- sometimes in subtle ways, sometimes in more obvious ways. So it strikes me as strange when I hear LDS members complain about being discriminated against by people of other religions. Because, after all, LDSers discriminate as well!

To be completely fair and honest, I struggle with feelings of bitterness about Mormonism, based on my painful experience and trying friendship with my LDS "best friend." I put "best friend" in quotes now, because I question whether we really were ever friends at all. And that experience has surely colored my perceptions regarding Mormons in general. (Despite trying to see a larger picture, I am human!) I've also had a couple other friends who were Mormon, and they were pretty honest with me about the problems within the LDS church (they had big problems with Utah Mormons, to be more specific -- they felt discrimination and one-upmanship -- who is more "righteous" than who -- within the church itself!).

Finally the Equality Riders are not protesting BYU or the LDS church as a whole. They are trying to have conversation and bring light to teachings that are harmful to GLBT people.

Susan

[Daniel]

How can I make this transition? Or, how can I at least just go back to the way I was? I feel that even if I came out completely, and everyone surprisingly was supportive, I would still be super self-conscious because I know they don't respect me behind my back (trust me, I'm in those conversations now, but not the target). I feel the absolute and only hope is doing what provo says - to move away from everything. But, as you all have said, that's absolutely impossible!

Does anyone understand this? Can anyone help?


Hi Topper. Sorry to have missed your intro myself. This thread is getting a lot of attention, and I feel like your concern may be in danger of getting lost in the shuffle. You might start a new thread about your concern so that it can get the attention it deserves.

That said, there's no going back. And if you do go back, you will only get very depressed- and god knows what will come of that. So I would stop thinking about 'going back'. That won't help you in the slightest.

What you need is a plan as well as a good counselor. In fact, you need a support system in place. Since you are into sports, how about thinking about the matter in terms of a game strategy? What would you do then?

I've been around the kind of guys you are talking about: don't forget the role of humor in such situations. It can be very disarming. The best defense is an offense? :D

Do you have someone you can talk to about this on a regular basis? For one thing, this will help you deal with your fears as well as help to build up your inner resources so that you can come out when you choose to. It really is about self-esteem to a great extent. Yes. I hear you loud and clear that you want respect and want to be thought of as a leader. The trouble is, you can not really have respect when you do not respect youself. Respect is not simply a matter of what others think of you. It is based on integrity and self-worth. If you put yourself in a hole you are asking others to throw dirt on you. As the saying goes: we teach others how to treat us. If we put up with shit, we get shit on. Sounds simple, but it's true.

Case in point. When I had my first boyfriend my mother invited us to Thanksgiving and then, a few days later, disinvited my partner, telling me that she wasn't 'comfortable'. What did I do? I told her that if he wasn't coming, I wasn't either. Yeah. It was tough. But I meant it. I drew that line in the sand right then and there. That's the day I became an adult in their eyes, and not a child waiting for acceptance. I got respect because I started filling up my own shoes.

Of course, I'm not saying that you have to take a hard stand. Everyone's journey is different. My only concern is that if, when you you start coming out, you bargain away your humanity, you are asking for big trouble.

Of course you are going to be self-concious. We've all been there. But you know what? Once one starts the process, you will be surprised. Those who you think will react negatively may act positively. People can surprise us. Even those who say the nastiest stuff. Sometimes they are the first ones to 'get' it.

Only the truth sets us free. Not only that, it has the potential of setting everyone free. That said, you are not responsible for everyone's reaction. Your only responsibility is to treat yourself and others as you would like to be treated.

I'd like to leave you with this thought, which is meant with humor and a dash of truth. It's something Gore Vidal said once.

All children alarm their parents, if only because you are forever expecting to encounter yourself.

[provocougar]

I feel the absolute and only hope is doing what provo says - to move away from everything. But, as you all have said, that's absolutely impossible!

Does anyone understand this? Can anyone help?

Daniel - I never said I was making excuses, i'm engaging.

YoungTopper - Zerbie had some really good comments about how you need to find your own path. It doesn't matter what other people say, you can find the truth out for yourself. It may take time, anguish and dedication, but you can find the answers, but are you open to receive them?

[provocougar]

To be completely fair and honest, I struggle with feelings of bitterness about Mormonism, based on my painful experience and trying friendship with my LDS "best friend."

And rightly so, i know plenty of bad mormons, and yes "utah" mormons are the worse! LOL, however, this is not what the church teaches, we believe that the church is true, the people aren't.

[dsdrane]

It may take time, anguish and dedication, but you can find the answers, but are you open to receive them?

Physician, heal thyself.

:cool:

[Daniel]

Once again, I hope we can see what others are trying to say, instead of deconstructing it into what we want them to say.

I also expressed regret on this topic. All comunities have members that strugle with aplying their beliefs. Even, from what has been said here, many Gay Christians strugle to see themselves as accepted by God. The LDS church teaches us to focus on our behavior, not other's. I know that in the case of the family I refered too, they are working very hard on learning to express their love to their son.

And yes, there are some families that are more concerned about the behavior of a child than how they treat that child... but, hopefuly they will learn that this is not Christ's way. We all need to look inward, learn what we need to change about ourselves... and let that light shine forth. Why is there sooo much time spent by people trying to change others?

What is not understood, apparently, is that gay people are not a behavior. That is the common misunderstanding.

Are straight people a behavior? I rather doubt that they are considered the sum of what they do in bed with others.

You speak of deconstruction, when, from my point of view, that is exactly what your point of view IS doing to gay persons. Turning them into behaviors, rather than seeing them as persons with feelings and intrinsic selfworth. So, who is doing what to whom?

[provocougar]

Physician, heal thyself.

:cool:

optometrist, examine thyself ......... see its not hard to come up with a witty sarcastic remark, but I'm trying to engage in dialogue, if you wish to do the same please continue, but sarcasm has no room for such important debates

[Daniel]

Daniel - I never said I was making excuses, i'm engaging.

YoungTopper - Zerbie had some really good comments about how you need to find your own path. It doesn't matter what other people say, you can find the truth out for yourself. It may take time, anguish and dedication, but you can find the answers, but are you open to receive them?

You are engaging alright. You are engaging in what amounts to anti-gay rhetoric, seeing that you have the hubris to assume that your answers are THE answers. In positing this, you invalidate the very people you address, this writer included.

You do not seem to be able to accept how you are coming across here, which points out a great many things, none of which are flattering, to say the least.

You you you....it's all about you....

So be it.

I wish you much peace. That's all I can, and will say, for now.

Moderators?

[provocougar]

Can you at least admit to how devistating this kind of scenario would be on one of your brothers?

I can, i'm sure the torment would be tremendous, however can you see how equally devasting it would be to the principles of the church and BYU if we just said, "oh, its ok".

What i don't get is where people have the sense of entitlement. Where does it come from? What aspect in life teaches that we can do whatever we want because it makes us feel good? Family orginizations don't teach that, school doesn't teach that, work doesn't teach that, nor church, nor the petting zoo, nor the streets we drive on teach us to do what we want, nor does orgainized sports teach us to do whatever we want. I know this will get twisted but rules are the fabric of society, civilizations are built on principles. Every orginzation that exists today has rules, creeds, mission statements that people live by. Why would God be any different. I have not seen or witnessed one act or participated in any group where i was ever led to believe that i could do do whatever I felt inclined to do. Just a thought.

[dsdrane]

optometrist, examine thyself ......... see its not hard to come up with a witty sarcastic remark, but I'm trying to engage in dialogue, if you wish to do the same please continue, but sarcasm has no room for such important debates

Wit was the farthest thing from my mind when I wrote that.

No, sir, you are trying to justify Lord knows what in your own house by using the tools of your trade to lure back a wayward lamb who finally figured out what's what and bolted (or is trying to bolt)...and I, for one, am not going to stand idly by and watch you do it.

Your arrogance is staggering and dialogue appears to be the last thing you want.

Why don't you tell us why you're really here?

[antonyh]

I can, i'm sure the torment would be tremendous, however can you see how equally devasting it would be to the principles of the church and BYU if we just said, "oh, its ok".

I don't know how principles can be devistated, but I do know how human beings can be devistated. I don't know how you can put change of beliefs on the same level as the torment of one of your LDS brothers.

Are beliefs so important that they are worth holding onto even when you know that they produce torment in your brother?

I just don't get it. Why would you want any human being to suffer.

[shiningstones16]

In regards to decontstruction, this is a term in literary theory based on the idea that language never has the capasity to convey a thought. Because of the power of individual past and perspective, we will always personaly interpret what is writen. But I believe we can, through open minds, actualy have a meaningful discusion if we are open to hear what is said, not interpret it.

I'm sorry, but sexuality does not define me. It is a part of me and an important part. Just as your sexuality is an important part of who you are. But does it define you? I am also a husband and a father, LDS, a student, an artist, a reader, a thinker, a cook, a gardner, a friend, a gamer, a cycler, and hopefuly above all a follower of Christ.

I don't know how saying that there is more to all of us than our sexuality is offensive. It seems to me, that more tolerance, kindness and compasion will come from looking at the sum of the parts, the human being... rather than focusing on one part of that human being. I personaly think that if we could do this, we would create a world that was kinder and happier for everyone! LGBT's, LDS, all minorities!

[antonyh]

I'm sorry, but sexuality does not define me. It is a part of me and an important part. Just as your sexuality is an important part of who you are. But does it define you? I am also a husband and a father, LDS, a student, an artist, a reader, a thinker, a cook, a gardner, a friend, a gamer, a cycler, and hopefuly above all a follower of Christ.


I imagine that most of the time you take your sexuality completely for granted. Since our sexuality is a matter of great scrutiny, it is harder for us to take it for granted.

[kara speltz]

I can, i'm sure the torment would be tremendous, however can you see how equally devasting it would be to the principles of the church and BYU if we just said, "oh, its ok".

What i don't get is where people have the sense of entitlement. Where does it come from? What aspect in life teaches that we can do whatever we want because it makes us feel good? Family orginizations don't teach that, school doesn't teach that, work doesn't teach that, nor church, nor the petting zoo, nor the streets we drive on teach us to do what we want, nor does orgainized sports teach us to do whatever we want. I know this will get twisted but rules are the fabric of society, civilizations are built on principles. Every orginzation that exists today has rules, creeds, mission statements that people live by. Why would God be any different. I have not seen or witnessed one act or participated in any group where i was ever led to believe that i could do do whatever I felt inclined to do. Just a thought.

Provo, I have to say that quote about where people have a sense of entitlement coming from you a white heterosexual male with more privilege than you're ever will be able to comprehend is laughable. You tread all over people with your sense of entitlement. And then ask us who don't have it why. Your arrogance is absolutely astounding.

kara

[provocougar]

Are beliefs so important that they are worth holding onto even when you know that they produce torment in your brother?

I just don't get it. Why would you want any human being to suffer.

To touch on the last comment, I don't want anyone to suffer, nor does God, however, people do suffer and God allows it cause he allows us to make our own choices. We are here without the training wheels on and He knows we will fall and be bruised and cuts up our knees and will allow us to suffer because that is how we learn to progress, He is there to help us but he knows best.

There is no realy way to answer the beliefs question lightly, so i will say, yes, they are more important, they raise above the individual, We do not conform our beliefs to the individual, but the individual to the beliefs.

[shiningstones16]

Ok, As much as I hate to see the backlash from this... here goes. Is it better for a human being to suffer but a short moment in this life to follow a comandment and recieve eternal joy and happiness for that sacrifice? Or to suffer in the eternities? I know that you all disagree with this... but I can not, for I feel I will offend God in doing so. Jesus Christ suffered a pain that he did not want to, for us... and I believe he requires us to follow his example, and suffer following his commands as he suffered for us.

You are all free to disagree... but, if you really want to create an environment of kindness, why not agree to disagree. Just as much as you feel my beliefs are damaging, I feel your beliefs are also. Just as much as you feel I am making people to suffer, I feel you are doing the same. Why can't we look past this, look for the good in each other and, while we are here below, press forward as a comunity. We may not agree on everything... but constantly dwelling on this will never make the here and now a better place for anyone.

So, here is a new question. Without forcing us to change our beliefs... what can we do to prevent the untimely death and suffering of human beings?

[dsdrane]

In regards to decontstruction, this is a term in literary theory based on the idea that language never has the capasity to convey a thought. Because of the power of individual past and perspective, we will always personaly interpret what is writen. But I believe we can, through open minds, actualy have a meaningful discusion if we are open to hear what is said, not interpret it.

I'm sorry, but sexuality does not define me. It is a part of me and an important part. Just as your sexuality is an important part of who you are. But does it define you? I am also a husband and a father, LDS, a student, an artist, a reader, a thinker, a cook, a gardner, a friend, a gamer, a cycler, and hopefuly above all a follower of Christ.

I don't know how saying that there is more to all of us than our sexuality is offensive. It seems to me, that more tolerance, kindness and compasion will come from looking at the sum of the parts, the human being... rather than focusing on one part of that human being. I personaly think that if we could do this, we would create a world that was kinder and happier for everyone! LGBT's, LDS, all minorities!

Agreed...but we're not the ones doing the defining.

I love it when some have said to me "why is everything gay, gay, gay with you", and they have absolutely no idea the extent to which implicit or explicit heterosexuality pervades daily life in our society -- from Jack & Jill, to Close-Up toothpaste commercials, to soap operas, to absolutely everything.

You don't have to define yourself by your sexuality because it's done for you in a zillion ways all the time.

I, too, am a son, a brother, a nephew, a co-worker, an architect, a Democrat, an Episcopalian, etc.; but, because I'm also gay, it colors everything else, whether I want it to or not. That decision is made by others.

And it will continue to do so until such time as it no longer matters.

Hence Soulforce, my friend.

[provocougar]

Provo, I have to say that quote about where people have a sense of entitlement coming from you a white heterosexual male with more privilege than you're ever will be able to comprehend is laughable. You tread all over people with your sense of entitlement. And then ask us who don't have it why. Your arrogance is absolutely astounding.

kara

Really, i guess you have me figured out then......... oh wait, ... i'm not white. So i guess the quote isn't as laughable and the arrogance is wrongly placed.

[shiningstones16]

I, too, am a son, a brother, a nephew, a co-worker, an architect, a Democrat, an Episcopalian, etc.; but, because I'm also gay, it colors everything else, whether I want it to or not. That decision is made by others.

And it will continue to do so until such time as it no longer matters.

Hence Soulforce, my friend.

Thank you for this thoughtful response... this makes a lot of sence to me. So, what can we do, together, despite our diference in beliefs to make this world a better place?

P.S. I love architecture and I'm also a Dem (/gasp)... see all that we share and can build on... I hope we can all overcome the need to tear each other down. Thanks again for the thoughtful responce.

[dsdrane]

Ok, As much as I hate to see the backlash from this... here goes. Is it better for a human being to suffer but a short moment in this life to follow a comandment and recieve eternal joy and happiness for that sacrifice? Or to suffer in the eternities? I know that you all disagree with this... but I can not, for I feel I will offend God in doing so. Jesus Christ suffered a pain that he did not want to, for us... and I believe he requires us to follow his example, and suffer following his commands as he suffered for us.

This is a false dichotomy.

How about this question, instead: should one take what God has given and live one's life as it was designed, or should one assume that some sort of mistake was made and try to change it or subdue it?

You believe homosexuality is a sin based on scripture and God's commandments.

I believe homosexuality is not a sin based upon the same.

You and I, and our churches, interpret the word of God as written by man in a very different way. Whole books, many of them, have been written on the topic of homosexuality and the Bible. So, folks, we ain't gonna get too far here.

What we can do is acknowledge vast differences of approach, as well as acknowledge that there are people who need love and support (as opposed to guilt and misguided attempts to "cure"). If, ultimately, it's more important for LDS doctrine to "throw out the unpopped kernals", fine, but couldn't they -- you -- find a better, more supportive, less damning way to help the transition elsewhere?

Is being Right the only thing that matters in the end? The God I worship would say "no".

[antonyh]

So, here is a new question. Without forcing us to change our beliefs... what can we do to prevent the untimely death and suffering of human beings?

I think we have established that your gay LDS brothers are suffering among you. Given how important it is to make the world free of suffering for everyone, would you be willing to at least examine your beliefs about homosexuality? Have you studied what the Bible really says about the subject?

[Daniel]

In regards to decontstruction, this is a term in literary theory based on the idea that language never has the capasity to convey a thought. Because of the power of individual past and perspective, we will always personaly interpret what is writen. But I believe we can, through open minds, actualy have a meaningful discusion if we are open to hear what is said, not interpret it.

I'm sorry, but sexuality does not define me. It is a part of me and an important part. Just as your sexuality is an important part of who you are. But does it define you? I am also a husband and a father, LDS, a student, an artist, a reader, a thinker, a cook, a gardner, a friend, a gamer, a cycler, and hopefuly above all a follower of Christ.

I don't know how saying that there is more to all of us than our sexuality is offensive. It seems to me, that more tolerance, kindness and compasion will come from looking at the sum of the parts, the human being... rather than focusing on one part of that human being. I personaly think that if we could do this, we would create a world that was kinder and happier for everyone! LGBT's, LDS, all minorities!

Dear one....as someone who toils with his own spelling, it's kind of funny to read your post about deconstruction and see the words that are missing a few letters, or some too many. Is that too interpretive on my part? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You might try using the Preview Post tab before you click Submit Post. :D

I know what deconstruction means in terms of literary theory. I also know what it means to miss another person's point because one is too busy focusing on one's own.

My point was this: the thought I hear in posts on this thread (including your own posts) is that being gay is a behavior which must be resisted at all costs, and as such, is not an identity, being something one only engages in. And since it is what what does, well....one can do something else, right? Wrong. This invalidates a gay person's experience as a human being. It reduces that person to an object to be despised and rejected.

(Messiah: a man of sorrows....acquainted with grief)

This point of view posits that gay people are not gay at all, just disorded straight people. As such, gay people are deconstructed. Their expression of sexuality is separated from them through condemnation of that expression.

Again- who is deconstructing whom?

Of course, we are more than our sexuality. No argument there. My sexuality does not define me, but it does give me a particular lense with which to experience the world, one which is different from those who are straight.

But love is love- I can tell you that. If you want to posit that straight people get more points from God by virtue of their sexual expression, knock yourself out. Just don't ask me to agree with you. I know different because I see differently.

My love for my husband, and his for me, is no less than that which you feel for your wife. Love is Love. And if you can't see that.....

[shiningstones16]

Once again... my beliefs are based on what I have learned from God, through the Bible, The Book of Mormon, and from the words of a living Prophet and Apostles. I believe God loves us so much that he doesn't want us to stumble about our faith by having only the Bible to establish it on. He has given us other scriptures to clarify the doctrines, and modern prophets to help us honor those doctrines today. You can not convince me to change my beliefs.

So, do we continue to wallow in the mire... or do we find a way to work together to relieve suffering. I am asking you what I can do, without having to change my beliefs. And you keep giving the same answer, change your beliefs. How arogant! I can accept our diferences in order to help relieve the suffer of others... can you?

[shiningstones16]

But love is love- I can tell you that. If you want to posit that straight people get more points from God by virtue of their sexual expression, knock yourself out. Just don't ask me to agree with you. I know different because I see differently.


I would love it if you were to agree with me... but if you don't. I accept that. And, I am sure you would love it if I were to agree with you, but I can not.

That being said... what do we do now?

PS... That preview post thing, you might want to check it out... "Physician, heal thyself." ;)

[Daniel]

Once again... my beliefs are based on what I have learned from God, through the Bible, The Book of Mormon, and from the words of a living Prophet and Apostles. I believe God loves us so much that he doesn't want us to stumble about our faith by having only the Bible to establish it on. He has given us other scriptures to clarify the doctrines, and modern prophets to help us honor those doctrines today. You can not convince me to change my beliefs.

So, do we continue to wallow in the mire... or do we find a way to work together to relieve suffering. I am asking you what I can do, without having to change my beliefs. And you keep giving the same answer, change your beliefs. How arogant! I can accept our diferences in order to help relieve the suffer of others... can you?

Arrogant has two r's btw. And if you look back, you'll see that I go back and edit myself. ;)

In the text above, you seem be equating- abet obliquely- my experience as a human being with a swamp. That's something I can imagine.

Living with other people's condemnation of my sexuality, can be, at times, like wading through a swamp.

I'm not asking you to change your beliefs. What you change or don't change is your concern.

What soulforce is about, as David (dsrane) has eloquently expressed, is the response we have towards those who experience religious oppression, which is caused by misinformation and lack of knowledge.

And that response is compassion. Nothing less than that. That means, as I see it, that one does not invalidate the person one is addressing by reducing their experience to what they do in bed with someone they love.

[shiningstones16]

I was not equating your experiance to a swamp. I was talking about this conversation. You don't want to change your views, I don't want to change mine. Continualy focusing on our diferences is the mire. Sorry if I was misunderstood.

I'll be unable to post for a while, but will be back later to see what has been said. Hope you all have a great afternoon.

[Daniel]

I was not equating your experiance to a swamp. I was talking about this conversation. You don't want to change your views, I don't want to change mine. Continualy focusing on our diferences is the mire. Sorry if I was misunderstood.

I'll be unable to post for a while, but will be back later to see what has been said. Hope you all have a great afternoon.

Dear one,

Thanks for your message. Ok. I can see where I misunderstood you.

I don't have a point of view, properly speaking. Being gay isn't a point of view and isn't something one can change like a coat or a pair of pants. Being gay is not an attiitude or a belief. You may think so, but your thinking will not be in accord with evidence to the contrary.

It may not appeal to you, there are ways to deal with our differences. As I see it, this entails seeing the person one is conversing with in terms of their whole being. That may be hard for you to do, since your beliefs - as far as I can tell- do not allow gay persons to be, that is, have intrinsic worth.

That's the difference and the mire in the conversation. And I can only imagine that this is due to your lack of knowledge regarding sexuality.

One of the interesting things about living in a big city (and I do) is seeing the diversity of people. Is it any wonder that cities tend to be more left-leaning than rural areas? It goes with the territory. In a place like a city, once one engages with gay persons long enough, one sees that they are like everyone else: they want to love and be loved just like everyone else.

What I'm getting to here is that, the capacity with which you are able to see gay persons as people with desires and goals similar to your own, will be the degree to which you are able to engage in interactions which are mutually beneficial.

However, if you maintain that gay people have no right to exist, are cast away from the love of God, are defective creatures and don't know it, you will not get very far. You'll be stuck in your own mire. You will be engaging in pity- and that's not compassion.

[BrentRichards]

Why can't we look past this, look for the good in each other and, while we are here below, press forward as a comunity.

That would be a community where you're welcome but we're not, right? The LDS church has specifically said we're not welcome in the community here below (as have many other churches and religious bodies ... this is far from an exclusively LDS issue). We got TOSSED from the community, we didn't leave. We aren't the ones who have said "We disagree, so we won't be part of your community." We have been told that because we disagree, we are not welcome in the community, or at least not entitled to full status and priviledge like everyone else. Please recognize that your statement above sounds tremendously ironic from an LGBT perspective. It's quite similar to what WE have been saying. We don't have the power to exclude those who disagree with us. You (not you personally, but the larger church) do.

[BrentRichards]

Ok, one suggestion ... can we not make fun of each other for typo's? That's not helpful.

Two, to answer the "what now?" question ... that is precisely the difficulty, because from our (my, let me speak only for myself) perspective, what you are effectively asking is "I've decided you're unacceptable, so what can I do to accept you?" I don't have an answer to that question. The old "love the sinner, hate the sin" principle sounds nice, but it's awfully tough to put into practice. If you think (and say) that a significant part of my identity is, in itself, a sin, you are never going to come across to me as loving and accepting me.

I can't tell you how to accept me while finding me unacceptable. Sorry.

[Zerbie]

Shine: Thank you for asking the important question. You are not going to change your beliefs. K'.

So what can you still do to alleviate the suffering that God's gay children experience in this world? A lot. I'll make a few suggestions:

* when ballot initiatives arise that would take away health care, domestic violence protections, hospital visitation rights and similar from unmarried (including of course, gay) couples: oppose them. On the grounds that, whether you approve or disapprove of someone having a same-sex partner, they do not deserve to lose medical care or protections against violence, simply on that basis. Because you are a person of faith, you believe that all people should receive the best medical care and the same protections under our government that you yourself receive.

* when legislation is proposed that would prohibit firing competent employees from their jobs simply because they are gay: support it. On the grounds that all people have an inalienable right to gainful employment and to earn their own living from the sweat of their brow, without having this taken away because a supervisor doesn't like the fact that they're gay. Because you are a person of faith who believes all people have the right to feed themselves through their own hard work.

* when legislation is introduced that would classify violent physical assaults against LGTB people as hate crimes: support it. On the grounds that all people have a right to be protected from violence, and that if, God forbid, one is brutally tortured and murdered because one is gay, that law enforcement should be given the resources and the mandate to investigate the crime, find the perpetrators, and bring them to justice. If your friends object that this would criminalize their thoughts or beliefs, point out what the legislation actually does, which has NOTHING to do with beliefs, thoughts, or speech, but only with investigating and prosecuting VIOLENT crime such as assault and murder. That unless they plan on running out with a nail-studded baseball bat, this legislation will never affect your Christian friends.

* on a more personal level: treat your gay acquaintances and friends with as much respect as you would like to receive yourself. Respect the validity of their relationships with God, even if their walk is different from yours and they have acknowledged themselves beloved of God exactly as they are. When you are tempted to "rescue" them by explaining about sacrifices and eternal torment, please credit your friends with having heard and considered this before: they have considered this matter with an intense urgency you as a straight person cannot imagine. Credit them with the authority to decide for themselves what it all means, having heard all sides of the story before, pondered deeply within their hearts, and prayed with that urgency you cannot imagine. They have found an answer to that urgent prayer. Respect that fact.

Next time you look into the eyes of a gay person, know that the Lord Himself is looking at you from within those eyes: as you do unto the least of these. . . . What you say to a gay person, you say to Him. He Himself has told us so.

[Daniel]

Ok, one suggestion ... can we not make fun of each other for typo's? That's not helpful..
I was not trying to make fun of anyone. What I was trying to point out- perhaps too subtly- is the way in which we think we are doing one thing, when, in fact, we are doing something else.

This is not unlike the person who thinks they are being compassionate- but is actually- being condemnatory. We do not perceive ourselves as others perceive us. And that's the whole point.

My fault, of course, is that I can engage conservative voices here in a 'teacherly' manner. That's me to a tee if you only knew me in my profession.

I'm working on being a better lover of people who push my buttons. If only they would do the same.

[antonyh]

Shine: Thank you for asking the important question. You are not going to change your beliefs. K'.

So what can you still do to alleviate the suffering that God's gay children experience in this world? A lot. I'll make a few suggestions:

Very good suggestions :)

[Zerbie]

. Of course you can see my dilemma. I want to be open about my sexuality, but I still live in this same world. I will be an outcast, or at least a loner.

Something nearly every gay person fears. A lot depends upon one's environment, I think. You are the one IN your environment, and know it enough to say how folks around treat gay people. Otoh, since it is also about *you,* some of your reaction may be colored by your fears for the worst.


I will stand out in a way that no one respects, but I need their respect. I need people to listen to me and follow me, because I'm in a leadership position. I've ever so slightly let my true self shine through in select situations with select people, just to see how they'd react, and it was scary.

I'm sorry LittleTop. :( Scary letting your friends see who you are? Or scary because their reactions were less than validating?

The difference is really crucial. It is always a vulnerable feeling to open your heart to others and let them see who you are inside. But if the person is validating, then it is worth opening up to them and receiving their love and affirmation. Otoh, if the other people you shared with have NOT been validating, then slow down. Nurture that little flame of self-discovery and self-love, and protect it from the cruelty of the world until it can grow powerful and strong to withstand whatever is said to you. Based on your words, you do not happen to be at that place of unshakeable inner security yet. Your sense of self seems fragile right now. So protect it lovingly, and let it grow. You will know when it is strong. When it comes from inside you, and doesn't rely on the reactions of others all the time.

This struggle has actually started to destroy my self-confidence all together. Now I'm losing my ability to look people in the eye, even those that don't know the truth. I think I am paranoid that everyone can see the truth, even though I'm hiding it. This makes things worse.

Yes. Certainly. You must nurture your inward strength. I think that it will come when you are able to cast yourself again on the mercy of God, in full understanding that He treasures you precisely as He has made you, sexual feelings included. He knows you have those desires, and He knew that you would have them before you yourself ever experienced them. You're still His precious baby and always will be, whatever comes of your questioning right now.

When you are sure that He holds you securely, you will be able to look ANYONE in the eye.

I'm losing everything now. If I could just be myself, I could be a million times better off, but that seems impossible. I don't speak as much anymore because I'm afraid I'll say the wrong things. It's that bad and much worse.

Can you find a non-judgmental therapist or counselor to talk these things over and gain some support? Or perhaps a community group that you can trust? Of course, you always have us - but sometimes we need face to face interaction. And hugs help a lot. :love: :love: :love:

I feel that even if I came out completely, and everyone surprisingly was supportive, I would still be super self-conscious because I know they don't respect me behind my back (trust me, I'm in those conversations now, but not the target).

I wish I could tell you that fear is unfounded. Sadly, I know precisely what you mean - being married, people feel that they can say certain things to me about the gay people we know, things that make me feel very sad. All I can possibly think to say to you about that is, LittleTop, anyone who would value you so little as to say bad things about you behind your back is ignorant and cowardly, and you deserve far better friends than that. One thing coming out does, it tends to reveal to us who our true friends are. All I can say is, don't put so much investment on what other people say or think. Are those other people all such experts? Are they God? Heck, no! Take their words with a big grain of salt. Use what helps you, and let the rest sift through the filter.

Does anyone understand this? Can anyone help?

Your worth is not determined by what anyone else thinks, LittleTop. Your worth is intrinsic.

Big hugs. :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

[BrentRichards]

Shine: Thank you for asking the important question. You are not going to change your beliefs. K'.

So what can you still do to alleviate the suffering that God's gay children experience in this world? A lot. I'll make a few suggestions:

* when ballot initiatives arise that would take away health care, domestic violence protections, hospital visitation rights and similar from unmarried (including of course, gay) couples: oppose them. On the grounds that, whether you approve or disapprove of someone having a same-sex partner, they do not deserve to lose medical care or protections against violence, simply on that basis. Because you are a person of faith, you believe that all people should receive the best medical care and the same protections under our government that you yourself receive.

* when legislation is proposed that would prohibit firing competent employees from their jobs simply because they are gay: support it. On the grounds that all people have an inalienable right to gainful employment and to earn their own living from the sweat of their brow, without having this taken away because a supervisor doesn't like the fact that they're gay. Because you are a person of faith who believes all people have the right to feed themselves through their own hard work.

* when legislation is introduced that would classify violent physical assaults against LGTB people as hate crimes: support it. On the grounds that all people have a right to be protected from violence, and that if, God forbid, one is brutally tortured and murdered because one is gay, that law enforcement should be given the resources and the mandate to investigate the crime, find the perpetrators, and bring them to justice. If your friends object that this would criminalize their thoughts or beliefs, point out what the legislation actually does, which has NOTHING to do with beliefs, thoughts, or speech, but only with investigating and prosecuting VIOLENT crime such as assault and murder. That unless they plan on running out with a nail-studded baseball bat, this legislation will never affect your Christian friends.

* on a more personal level: treat your gay acquaintances and friends with as much respect as you would like to receive yourself. Respect the validity of their relationships with God, even if their walk is different from yours and they have acknowledged themselves beloved of God exactly as they are. When you are tempted to "rescue" them by explaining about sacrifices and eternal torment, please credit your friends with having heard and considered this before: they have considered this matter with an intense urgency you as a straight person cannot imagine. Credit them with the authority to decide for themselves what it all means, having heard all sides of the story before, pondered deeply within their hearts, and prayed with that urgency you cannot imagine. They have found an answer to that urgent prayer. Respect that fact.

Next time you look into the eyes of a gay person, know that the Lord Himself is looking at you from within those eyes: as you do unto the least of these. . . . What you say to a gay person, you say to Him. He Himself has told us so.

You're right, Zerb, these are valid and important suggestions ... my response above was from a purely interpersonal perspective.

[Daniel]

I can't tell you how to accept me while finding me unacceptable. Sorry.

Excellent point btw. Really sums it up.

[BrentRichards]

Excellent point btw. Really sums it up.

Why thank you.

[kara speltz]

I would love it if you were to agree with me... but if you don't. I accept that. And, I am sure you would love it if I were to agree with you, but I can not.

That being said... what do we do now?


I too, have trouble with this whole concept of hate the sin, love the sinner. First and foremost because I am so sure there is no sin in LOVE. It is our failure to love that is sinful.

So here's a specific suggestion shining. I'm sure that within your own family there are gays and lesbians. I would also bet that there are divorced and remarried people within your family. Now I come out of Roman Catholicism where divorce and remarriage put you outside of the church. But that same Church, does nothing to legislate against divorced and remarried. The sure sign of bigotry is if you treat LGBTs differently than you treat divorced and remarried people. Because Jesus did speak about divorce but not about LGBTs.

So for a start, pay attention to how you perceive divorced and remarried people and how you perceive LGBTs, because by your own rules, supposedly they are equivalent in what you consider their sin.

I have spoken to dozens and dozens of Roman Catholic bishops and not a one of them could give me a good reason for treating LGBTs differently than divorced and remarried Catholics. But in California in 1999, the California bishops spent some $400,000 to ensure a ban on gay marriage. If they were sincere at all they would have been spending that money on banning remarriage, but they weren't. And take a look at the Republican candidates for president - except for one, they've all been married more than once and some more than three times. So rather than vote against a candidate who might possibly have the gumption to stand up for equal marriage protection, perhaps base your choice on who lives out the call for justice.
Clearly there is a double standard that prevails in almost every religious institution, not to mention their followers.

kara

[provocougar]

So what can you still do to alleviate the suffering that God's gay children experience in this world? A lot. I'll make a few suggestions:


Very good suggestions, i could see myself supporting those issues because they are in support of the general public and not just gays, straights, whites or blacks. I believe that all people should be treated equally.

Here is a question, one i've always wondered honestly and curiously. If you like someone of the same sex, how do you approach them? Because chances are that they are hetero (unless you are in that setting). Wouldn't that be the cause of some akward moments? I've never known anyone (personally, friendly wise) that is gay, nor do I know if i ever will, so it is just a curiosity.

[andrewlittle]

Very good suggestions, i could see myself supporting those issues because they are in support of the general public and not just gays, straights, whites or blacks. I believe that all people should be treated equally.

Here is a question, one i've always wondered honestly and curiously. If you like someone of the same sex, how do you approach them? Because chances are that they are hetero (unless you are in that setting). Wouldn't that be the cause of some akward moments? I've never known anyone (personally, friendly wise) that is gay, nor do I know if i ever will, so it is just a curiosity.

Hi provocougar, I'll take a stab at that, even though I don't exactly qualify to answer. Some others may, or may nor, be bothered by the question.

I'll begin by asking how you would approach someone of the opposite gender? Hopefully, that would be based on some sense that there may be an affinity or mutual interest of some sort. While "bull-in-the-chian-cupboard" approaches work for some, most staright people take a little time to consider who it is they may be approaching.

I have been approached several times by gay men - I think its because of my somewhat effeminate mannerisms - and it does, indeed, not need to be awkward. The reaction is, many times, what makes it such. Each time I have been approached politely and respectfully, engaged in conversation, and at some point a question was asked or a comment made that let me know this person was interested beyond just chat.

At that point, I have simply said, "you know, I am straight, but thanks anyway for the compliment." I will then immediately pick the conversation up along a thread we have already discussed. I don't see the need for melodrama, or standing aghast - but then I don't feel the least bit slighted that someone might think I'm gay. If they're macho, redneck homophobes, I would pretty much bet it was meant as an insult - but, if they were gay, it was definitely meant as a compliment.

This probably doesn't answer you question from the perspective you wished. I just think that, many times, its the reaction that is, or makes it, awkward.

[Zerbie]

Gay people have this power called gaydar. We just know if somone is gay. You may think I'm jesting, but I'm not...seriously. However, I would not suggest trying to use the power yourself. God only gave it to homosexuals.

.

Oh dear. :lol: What does it mean if you're female and have trouble spotting lesbians but have infallible gaydar for gay males?

Waita minute - by this logic, it would seem that I'm a gay man. :D :weee:
Breaking this to my incurably heterosexual husband is going to be difficult. :lol:

Seriously now, to Provo: I just grinned all over when I read tthat you see yourself supporting those issues. That's what's most important. :D

To answer your question: as Andy says, it's not at all unlike approaching someone of the opposite sex. Anyway, that opposite sex person could turn out to be gay!
People are people, and when we like someone, we tend to be a little shy or nervous hoping they like us. So you try to figure out if that person might be available. Sometimes there is an instant "gaydar moment" when you first meet a gay person, and you just instinctively know they're gay without asking yourself or even thinking about it. I joked above about having gaydar for men, but on a serious side, I often DO just "know" and I can't say why, I just "feel" it.

As far as meeting cute people: there is much pitter-patting of hearts when gay folks develop crushes, too. :) :love:

[BrentRichards]

Hi provocougar, I'll take a stab at that, even though I don't exactly qualify to answer. Some others may, or may nor, be bothered by the question.

I'll begin by asking how you would approach someone of the opposite gender? Hopefully, that would be based on some sense that there may be an affinity or mutual interest of some sort. While "bull-in-the-chian-cupboard" approaches work for some, most staright people take a little time to consider who it is they may be approaching.

I have been approached several times by gay men - I think its because of my somewhat effeminate mannerisms - and it does, indeed, not need to be awkward. The reaction is, many times, what makes it such. Each time I have been approached politely and respectfully, engaged in conversation, and at some point a question was asked or a comment made that let me know this person was interested beyond just chat.

At that point, I have simply said, "you know, I am straight, but thanks anyway for the compliment." I will then immediately pick the conversation up along a thread we have already discussed. I don't see the need for melodrama, or standing aghast - but then I don't feel the least bit slighted that someone might think I'm gay. If they're macho, redneck homophobes, I would pretty much bet it was meant as an insult - but, if they were gay, it was definitely meant as a compliment.

This probably doesn't answer you question from the perspective you wished. I just think that, many times, its the reaction that is, or makes it, awkward.

Well said, Andy. I have on occasion (male super model that I am [cough]) been approached by interested females ... I can't take offense at that.

I'd also like to be very clear, Provo, that we gay guys are not out stalking you straight guys (no, I know, you didn't say that ... but some do have that feeling of "Ew, you're looking at me."). I would personally NEVER approach a stranger to express romantic interest if I didn't know him to be gay ... and my general assumption, just based on the statistics, is that he's not. Personal rule: Don't hit on straight guys. Waste of time. I'm being flippant, but the point is there. Sometimes, homophobia really is fear ... thinking that gay guys are out to "recruit" or "convert" you (generic "you," I know you didn't say this) makes them a threat to be "dealt with."

For the record, "gaydar" is extremely fallible in my experience. The only time I personally am EVER asked if I'm gay is in gay contexts (clubs, activist events) ... as in "Wait, are YOU gay?" Apparently, even there, I don't ping on gaydar. Maybe its the spike heels (joke!).

And the most telling thing you've said so far ... you don't know any gay people. Please, find a gay friend or two ... not to "change your mind" ... but to learn to understand this as about PEOPLE, not just ISSUES. I think you'll find it a valuable experience, even if it doesn't change your theology one iota. Just my two cents.

[BrentRichards]

I should say that the "awkward moments" abounded for me as a deeply closeted conservative Christian ... because I would not acknowledge and deal with my sexuality in a healthy way, I regularly "fell for" straight friends, and insisting in my own mind that how I felt was just "brotherly love" I put some friends in very awkward positions by the emotional expectations I had of a friendship ... demands appropriate to a romantic love, not a brotherly one ... I had to come to terms with my sexuality to be able to maintain healthy non-sexual/non-romantic friendships with other men (gay or straight). Now, as an openly gay man, I no longer feel the draw or compulsion to relate to straight men in that way ... and I've talked with numerous other gay men who have had a similar "shift" in attitude and experience since coming out.

[davidb]

I know that gaydar is a very un-politically correct concept. That being said, mine is about 99.5% accurate...

[antonyh]

I've never known anyone (personally, friendly wise) that is gay, nor do I know if i ever will, so it is just a curiosity.

I never thought I would be chatting with a Mormon in a million years. Your world is as far away as my world is to you.

Gotta love the Internet :rolleyes:

[scott snedeker]

How can I make this transition? Or, how can I at least just go back to the way I was? I feel that even if I came out completely, and everyone surprisingly was supportive, I would still be super self-conscious because I know they don't respect me behind my back (trust me, I'm in those conversations now, but not the target). I feel the absolute and only hope is doing what provo says - to move away from everything. But, as you all have said, that's absolutely impossible!

Does anyone understand this? Can anyone help?


Hi Top!

First if you haven't seen it already your should Rent Latter Days. It's a movie of a young mormon guy who is outed.

The fear of not being respected openly is an emotional reflection of not respecting yourself.

If homosexuality is a sin, and my only attraction is to males, then God created me for the purpose of emotional torture. This makes me a second class human with less entitlement to joy than straight fellas. Kinda not good for my self respect to believe that I am a second class human.

During my emotional and spiritual growth I had to go outside of the faith that communicated that constant message of being a second class human to find my self: a gay boy entitled to passion, love, equal worthiness, and the joy of living true to my God-given gay nature.

I honor God by living true to my nature. Now I bring back to the faith of other gay and straight people this message that I know to be true. :earth:

Maybe your part of being a true Mormon is to go outside your faith for The time being, not forever. Maybe like Brigham Young, your destiny is to break off, discover the truth that you are a magnificent being because you are gay. Then Come back to show your famly and friends the shining Gay being your are so that they can see a truer example of God's message of unconditional love. Those that do, come in to your fold and closer to God.:love:

Those that don't, well:

"Is there a Hymn for all those left behind?
Is there a prayer for every heart left barren?
Is there a call for all the saints to be reminded.
To sing a hymn for all those left behind.":pray:

--from the soundtrack of Latter Days
Maybe this is how He intends for you to help make Church of Latter Day Saints, Kinder and more nurturing:dove:

Kara, One of the founders of Soulforce has told me her story of how she did this same thing to bring from without this message in to the Catholic faith.:good:

[u-dog]

I know that gaydar is a very un-politically correct concept. That being said, mine is about 99.5% accurate...


OK! lets test it. How about me? Am I gay?

[keltic63]

Very good suggestions, i could see myself supporting those issues because they are in support of the general public and not just gays, straights, whites or blacks. I believe that all people should be treated equally.

That's good to hear.

Here is a question, one i've always wondered honestly and curiously. If you like someone of the same sex, how do you approach them? Because chances are that they are hetero (unless you are in that setting). Wouldn't that be the cause of some akward moments? I've never known anyone (personally, friendly wise) that is gay, nor do I know if i ever will, so it is just a curiosity.

Didn't you say you're in PA???? Please, I live in a small town, classified as a "borough" so it's less than 5,000 people. I know at least 20 gay people in town. How far are you from Pittsburgh? I could meet you for coffee and then you'd know a real gay person! However, I suspect you already know gay people and they don't feel comfortable being out to you.

Gay people have this power called gaydar. We just know if somone is gay. You may think I'm jesting, but I'm not...seriously. However, I would not suggest trying to use the power yourself. God only gave it to homosexuals.

You should try to meet some gay people. We're fun to be with.

we went out to eat last night and at the restaurant we figure we saw a minimum of 4 gay men and 2 lesbians. 2 of the gay guys were with women. We figured they were just unaware of their orientation, or still dealing with their feelings, perhaps trying to be straight. Or, they were just out with a friend, no romantic connection at all.

Yes, we really are the most fun!

I know that gaydar is a very un-politically correct concept. That being said, mine is about 99.5% accurate...

Yes, I'm aware that gaydar is considered a myth, but then all myths have their basis in some kind of truth. Sometimes it's just too easy to pick out the gay guys.

[provocougar]

Whoa there folks, didn't want everybody to get hot and steamy over the inquisition about finding mates! LOL, I guess it is good to know that most of you seem to have no problem, didn't Michael Scott (The Office) try to buy a gaydar from Staples? : ).

Didn't you say you're in PA???? Please, I live in a small town, classified as a "borough" so it's less than 5,000 people. I know at least 20 gay people in town. How far are you from Pittsburgh? I could meet you for coffee and then you'd know a real gay person! However, I suspect you already know gay people and they don't feel comfortable being out to you.

Yes i do live in PA, west of philly, just moved here two months ago from Oklahoma. Since i hardly now anyone here yet, besides my coworkers and church members, I really doubt i know any gays here. Plus, i'm a very likeable person, people tell me all kinds of stuff, and i can talk to all kinds of different peeps; like right now.

[keltic63]

Whoa there folks, didn't want everybody to get hot and steamy over the inquisition about finding mates! LOL, I guess it is good to know that most of you seem to have no problem, didn't Michael Scott (The Office) try to buy a gaydar from Staples? : ).



Yes i do live in PA, west of philly, just moved here two months ago from Oklahoma. Since i hardly now anyone here yet, besides my coworkers and church members, I really doubt i know any gays here. Plus, i'm a very likeable person, people tell me all kinds of stuff, and i can talk to all kinds of different peeps; like right now.


My real point is that you do know gay people, you don't know that they're gay.

[provocougar]

And take a look at the Republican candidates for president - except for one, they've all been married more than once and some more than three times. So rather than vote against a candidate who might possibly have the gumption to stand up for equal marriage protection, perhaps base your choice on who lives out the call for justice.
Clearly there is a double standard that prevails in almost every religious institution, not to mention their followers.

kara

Thats right, Mitt Romney! another lds'er! :D (don't know if i'll vote for him since he waffles on the abortion issue)

[kara speltz]

Thats right, Mitt Romney! another lds'er! :D (don't know if i'll vote for him since he waffles on the abortion issue)

lol he waffles on everything, from his position on same gender marriage to gun control. seems the only thing he's been consistent in is his marriage, but that surely doesn't make him presidential material.

Truthfully there isn't a candidate I trust. Once again, I'll be voting for the one who is the least of the problems.

[davidb]

My gaydar is 99.5% accurate in real life. And only with men. Cyberspace is a different matter.

[BrentRichards]

OK! lets test it. How about me? Am I gay?

Fuh-laming! [Like I would know]

[u-dog]

If I pretend to like football? You absolutely can't tell!


I have only ever been hit on by another guy ONCE in my life (girl scouts honor!) In high school and college, my straight friends ALL had stories to tell about guys hitting on them in bus stations and restaurants. not me. I used to go home and look in the mirror to see if I had a hump on my back or something.

I finally concluded that it was because I was such a stud.

[BrentRichards]

If I pretend to like football? You absolutely can't tell!


I have only ever been hit on by another guy ONCE in my life (girl scouts honor!) In high school and college, my straight friends ALL had stories to tell about guys hitting on them in bus stations and restaurants. not me. I used to go home and look in the mirror to see if I had a hump on my back or something.

I finally concluded that it was because I was such a stud.

Yeah, I've told myself the same thing. Whatever gets us through the night.

[u-dog]

Next time you are travelling west on I-70 stop about an hour before you get to Illinois and I'll meet you at some macho sports bar. we can knock back a few brews, watch the game, and cruise chicks or somethin

:lol: :lol:

[davidb]

Maybe you boys could go to Shoney's afterward for the breakfast buffet?

[BrentRichards]

Maybe you boys could go to Shoney's afterward for the breakfast buffet?

I actually WORKED at a Shoney's breakfast buffet one summer!

And, I have to admit to being a regular at a local beer and wings night, and late night/early morning breakfasts at Waffle House. I drive a mini van, register Republican, wear plaid (rarely flannel), own a cabin in the woods without running water, like snakes, wear KMart shoes and dislike Cher. Who's coming to revoke my gay card?

[keltic63]

I actually WORKED at a Shoney's breakfast buffet one summer!

And, I have to admit to being a regular at a local beer and wings night, and late night/early morning breakfasts at Waffle House. I drive a mini van, register Republican, wear plaid (rarely flannel), own a cabin in the woods without running water, like snakes, wear KMart shoes and dislike Cher. Who's coming to revoke my gay card?


I was OK with all that until I got to KMart shoes. :(

[BrentRichards]

I was OK with all that until I got to KMart shoes. :(

Wow, it's usually the Republican part that gets me in trouble first.

[dsdrane]

I can overlook everything but the mini-van. :eek:

:cookie:

[u-dog]

I drive a mini-van !!

but as soon as the engine drops out of it I'm going to stop

[dsdrane]

I drive a mini-van !!

but as soon as the engine drops out of it I'm going to stop

Well...I was a young Republican, so much so that I was the youngest delegate to the 1986 Maine State Repub. Convention at age 18.

I've long since learned the error of my ways, but I will admit to maintaining soft spots for William Cohen and Olympia Snowe.

Hopefully we can forgive each other....:cookie:

[u-dog]

but I'm finding myself seriously disillusioned by Brent's confession to ongoing latent republicanism. Are there any ex-republican programs in Pennsylvania that we could get him into? Perhaps if he prayed, God would deliver him out of his Republican lifestlye?

You know Hate the political party but love the political party member?

[BrentRichards]

but I'm finding myself seriously disillusioned by Brent's confession to ongoing latent republicanism. Are there any ex-republican programs in Pennsylvania that we could get him into? Perhaps if he prayed, God would deliver him out of his Republican lifestlye?

You know Hate the political party but love the political party member?

I get regular "shock therapy" from some of the bozos I've voted into office, and that hasn't helped, so get off my case.

[davidb]

Anyone who's ever said that we gays are all alike and have one agenda ought to read this forum. Just sayin'.

[BrentRichards]

Anyone who's ever said that we gays are all alike and have one agenda ought to read this forum. Just sayin'.

Shhh ... don't tell. If they find out we're like everyone else it will KILL our publicity... (see Mel's "How Can I Be Sure God Loves Me Too" video

[shiningstones16]

but I'm finding myself seriously disillusioned by Brent's confession to ongoing latent republicanism. Are there any ex-republican programs in Pennsylvania that we could get him into? Perhaps if he prayed, God would deliver him out of his Republican lifestlye?

You know Hate the political party but love the political party member?

SO, I have to say... reading the forum this evening has been pretty enjoyable. It may surprise some of you to find out that there are LDS democrats! I really don't have guilt, I don't think it is moraly opposed to my religious beliefs... but I sure get told it is alot. Oh well... good times. I may not be chalenging my faith's doctrinal beliefs... but there are plenty of social, cultural and political beliefs that are accepted by members of our faith... that as much as they want to disbelieve, are not doctrinal.

Needless to say... the "hate the political party joke" really hit a home run for me. Got quite the kick outa' it... thanks for keepin' me laughin' U-Dog!

[Wanderer]

Provo,

First of all, sorry I'm so late to the discussion. I do that a lot...unfortunately.

Second, and far more importantly, I'm glad to see that you are willing to support your gay and lesbian neighbors who are pursuing a more just society in our country. Bravo!

Third, (...and I want to preface this by saying that this is *not* an attempt to change your doctrinal stance, although it *is* an attempt to feed your thinking...) I thought that I would point out a few scriptures for your consideration. These are things that I have referenced (briefly) elsewhere on this site, and I wanted to see your reaction.

You are LDS, right? You accept the Protestant Bible, (...well...except for the Song of Songs...,) right? You also accept the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants? (The Pearl of Great Price need not detain us for the moment.) Then consider that these texts teach us that love has no agenda for others. For example, the first duty of love is service (Matt 20:26-27.) The concern of love is peace and mutual edification (Rom 14:19.) This gives a duty to those who are spiritually stronger: they are to seek the genuine good of those who are weaker (Rom 15:1-2; see also D&C 81:5 and 108:7.) Everyone, weak or strong, should be other-centered, and not self-centered (1 Cor 10:24.)

All of this is rooted in the very nature of love, which is never self-centered (1 Cor 13:5.) Our patience with each other can and should be motivated by the recognition that God is in charge of the universe; nothing happens that is not in His plan; everything is as He ordained, even if, to our eyes, it seems "defective," somehow (Ex 4:11; 2 Ne. 27:27; Jacob 4:10.) Job rhetorically asked God if He took some sort of sick pleasure in punishing goodness (Job 10:3.) The implied answer of faith is: No, of course not. But to our human eyes, (here represented by Job) it looks that way, from time to time. After all, it is God Himself who formed and fashioned us (Job 10:8.) It is in His image that we were made (Ether 3:15.)

Of course, none of this "proves" anything at all about gay sex, gay relationships, gay marriage, etc., etc. But my hope is that you consider this when dealing with gay *people.* Whatever anyone's doctrinal stance on this or any issue, may we never forget that *every* human being we deal with is the image of God (Gen 1:26-27, and *many* others) and is the object of God's unfathomable love (Jn 3:16-17) and the recipient of His enlightenment (Jn 1:9.)

Wanderer

[tdogg]

Very good suggestions, i could see myself supporting those issues because they are in support of the general public and not just gays, straights, whites or blacks. I believe that all people should be treated equally.

Here is a question, one i've always wondered honestly and curiously. If you like someone of the same sex, how do you approach them? Because chances are that they are hetero (unless you are in that setting). Wouldn't that be the cause of some akward moments? I've never known anyone (personally, friendly wise) that is gay, nor do I know if i ever will, so it is just a curiosity.

It's called gaydar, honey. :lol:

Sorry...couldn't resist... :p

Not too different than one would approach someone one was interested in dating of the opposite sex: You get to know the person a bit (oh, that takes some time and patience tho...), then if you still are interested, ask them out. If you hit it off, you go out again. If not, no harm no foul. If they aren't interested, you say thanks and go on your own way. If they are straight but interested, you really really have some decisions to make.

Works ok either way, if one was so included to date both sexes.

[tdogg]

It pays to read through ALL the posts before thinking I'm coming up with a real funny one...

Dang! Missed again.

Anyways, yes there is such a thing as gaydar. Mine is much more sensitive than my partners!!! ;)