My reflections

[Drizzt]

I came in without trying to sound respectful, so I apologize, I didn't think it was necessary (I like to be blunt in discussions like these). Know that I do respect your beliefs, no matter how wrong I think they are. My arguments were not "you have to agree with me" but "this is why you should agree with me". I also do accept you, and would welcome you into my house, as long as you dont have a malicious agenda.

Even after reading Mel White's stuff, and everything else you have thrown in my face, I still am convinced that homosexuality is a sin.

Even after throwing my beliefs in your face, all I've done is offend you.

I came to try to figure out why you believe what you believe, and I have done so.

I also came to try to convince you through discussion that you're wrong, and that is impossible. The only thing you're going to do is insult me and my beliefs.

Some of you have tried to calm people down, and I admire you for that. What I thought could have happened was a constructive intelligent debate, but most of you aren't willing to have one. If I continue this it will continue to be a meaningless debate.

Hopefully after reading this you can get to your senses and treat people how you want to be treated. Also, hopefully you'd be more willing to discuss with people that think homosexuality is a sin (there should probably be a seperate subforum for that).

[Joe Brummer]

Perhaps what could be discussed is how those who believe homosexuality is a sin and those who believe not can still come together and create the Beloved Community where each person's views are accepted and respect. Now that is a conversation I think is long overdue.

I think your apology is well written and I hope you know you are welcome here at least by me. We all make mistakes at trying to "change the world" and learn along the way!

I would suggest that when you come with arms down, and vunerablities open, you will find the discussion can and will happen, but you cannot come into a discussion to solve a conflict with the mindset that you are right. You must come with the mindset that we all have much to learn from each other.

I thank you and know I appreciate your apology, please accept mine for any harsh words you may have experience here.

[Daniel]

I came in without trying to sound respectful, so I apologize, I didn't think it was necessary (I like to be blunt in discussions like these). Know that I do respect your beliefs, no matter how wrong I think they are. My arguments were not "you have to agree with me" but "this is why you should agree with me". I also do accept you, and would welcome you into my house, as long as you dont have a malicious agenda.

Even after reading Mel White's stuff, and everything else you have thrown in my face, I still am convinced that homosexuality is a sin.

Even after throwing my beliefs in your face, all I've done is offend you.

I came to try to figure out why you believe what you believe, and I have done so.

I also came to try to convince you through discussion that you're wrong, and that is impossible. The only thing you're going to do is insult me and my beliefs.

Some of you have tried to calm people down, and I admire you for that. What I thought could have happened was a constructive intelligent debate, but most of you aren't willing to have one. If I continue this it will continue to be a meaningless debate.

Hopefully after reading this you can get to your senses and treat people how you want to be treated. Also, hopefully you'd be more willing to discuss with people that think homosexuality is a sin (there should probably be a seperate subforum for that).


Drizzt- some of us have been around here for a short time, some longer. None of us speak for Soulforce proper. You should keep that in mind. You should also keep in mind that this forum, even though it is public, is something of a sanctuary of those who are sorting out their feelings as well as dealing with the effect of religious oppression. Such thing aren't done overnight.

Neither is reading one pamphlet on this website and thinking about it for 30 minutes enough. I doubt that you will see things differently until you think about things for a good long while and have repeated and sustained contact with gay persons. Gay people who come to terms with their sexuality don't do so in one blazing moment. It takes time. Some people take a long time. And others are so fearful and depressed that they give up and take their lives- they are in that much pain.

What would help a great deal is if you could imagine yourself in the shoes of a young gay person who has been taught, by word and example, to hate himself/herself. Until you can do that, until you can identify with those who are so unlike yourself, there will be no reason for you to 'see' anything differently.

The problem, of course, is that those how have worked out their issues with sexuality are all too often confronted with those- such as youself- who embody all that they have endeavored to put behind them. Your views - and even the words you use- only remind them of a very painful time during their life. You might keep this in mind.

No one here is perfect. No one here has all the answers for you. The voices here only have their experience and life stories to share with you. And you will be able to connect to those stories insofar that you can listen to what they have to say- even if it is said in anger and frustration- which comes from a well-spring of hurt and trauma.

Treating others how one would like to be treated goes both ways. In time, I hope you will come to see how your use of language is a trigger for many here.

Have you ever listened to your voice on tape? If you have, you will undoubtedly feel that the person speaking isn't you...it must be someone else. That's because sound waves travel in such a way that our own ears don't pick up the sound of our voices as other people hear it. It's only when we learn to really listen to to our own voice- it's intent and meaning-and its effect on others- that we get some sense of who we are and our effect on the world around us. We also have to learn to listen to others instead of simply waiting to put in our thoughts.

Soulforce's goal is not to convince other people that they are wrong. That's a very poor goal. Did Jesus come to convince the people of the world that they were 'wrong'? Great teachers don't teach that way. Likewise, as you express it, convincing gay people that they are 'wrong' is a goal that is bound to fail. It makes for condemnation. And condemnation never works- either for you or for us. It goes against the Golden Rule, which is a tough Rule, seeing that it turns the world of dog-eat-dog-one-must get-ahead-at-all-costs on its head.

Soulforce exists to shine a light on the very real consequences of homophobia and anti-gay prejudice. Gay people are an inconvenient truth to those who posit that the world should look like such and so- based on what? What some pastor said who never met an actual gay person, and is afraid of meeting one? Who knows nothing of gay people? This is a case of the blind leading the blind.

Rather than coming here to prove that you are right, you might be spending time asking gay people about their experiences and insights.

The greatest mystics repeatedly tell us that Truth speaks to us in silence. And with that in mind, I hope you will take what you have read and heard here and sit with it in Silence. Real Silence- which is altogether different that the chattering the mind, which thinking it is the all that is the everything, cannot see anything other than itself because it is too busy being busy.

[Rick336]

I still am convinced that homosexuality is a sin.

This is not meant to be funny or tacky. I'm very sincere here.

You believe that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible also says that eating shellfish is a sin and that working on the Sabbath is a sin worthy of death.

Do you eat shellfish?
Have you ever worked on the Sabbath?

The reason I'm asking these questions is that it's hard for me to understand why some Christians can pick and choose which verses of scripture are to be obeyed and which ones can be ignored. It's very confusing.

So basically my question is this: If you've ever eaten shrimp or mowed the lawn on Sunday will you be tortured in hell for eternity?

Thanks.

Rick

[ladyinred]

Rick!!!!! I ate shellfish!! Will,will, will I burn!???????( Sorry just the mischief in me, had to lighten things up a little):lol:

[scott snedeker]

The primary reason that I don't believe homosexuality is a sin is that I was attracted to males from the beginning of my sexual awakening (at age 7). I had the Hots for Iron Man and Captain America.:lol:

If God created me with this attraction to men only to command me later to not passionately love the man (men) who holds my heart, while Heterosexuals are entitled to this joy with his blessing, then He created me for the purpose of suffering loneliness and self hatred.

I would then be a second class human with less entitlement than those who were created with attraction to the opposite sex.

It would be like raisnig a kitten only to kill it slowly by feeding it bird seed instead of its proper diet.

These would both appear to be examples of asinine cruelty.

I know better than to accuse God of asinine cruelty.

When reading passages of Leviticus, Many interpret from them that homosexuality is against God's will. This I believe Is by taking direct literal meaning of these passages taken out of any context.

If other passages are taken in this same fashion we would also be commanded to not wear polester-cotton blend shirts, sell our wives, stone people who divorced and remarried, be excluded from heaven for having testicular cancer, etc.....

My God loves me unconditionally whether I wear cotton spandex shorts or eat an egg Mcmuffin or make love to a man. If these passages are indeed accurate and written by God, then My recociliation of the two would be that these pasages are a test for me written by Him for me to recognize when lies are written or spoken that falsely suggest God creates some people to satisfy a cruel gratification. That would explain the trivial "wearing mixed fiber" abomination clause in leviticus.

I am however a pagan as it is. For me there is no sin. Only love (God's will) or absence of love (against God's will)

My message is this: Learn to break down barriers to unconditional love and allow love to fiil our soul without condemnation or judgement and you will feel God's true presence more than ever before. I believe that you were directed to this site to receive this very message. When love wins over condemnation we all win. :love:

[Emproph]

Drizzt- some of us have been around here for a short time, some longer. None of us speak for Soulforce proper. You should keep that in mind. You should also keep in mind that this forum, even though it is public, is something of a sanctuary of those who are sorting out their feelings as well as dealing with the effect of religious oppression. Such thing aren't done overnight.

Neither is reading one pamphlet on this website and thinking about it for 30 minutes enough. I doubt that you will see things differently until you think about things for a good long while and have repeated and sustained contact with gay persons. Gay people who come to terms with their sexuality don't do so in one blazing moment. It takes time. Some people take a long time. And others are so fearful and depressed that they give up and take their lives- they are in that much pain.

What would help a great deal is if you could imagine yourself in the shoes of a young gay person who has been taught, by word and example, to hate himself/herself. Until you can do that, until you can identify with those who are so unlike yourself, there will be no reason for you to 'see' anything differently.

The problem, of course, is that those how have worked out their issues with sexuality are all too often confronted with those- such as youself- who embody all that they have endeavored to put behind them. Your views - and even the words you use- only remind them of a very painful time during their life. You might keep this in mind.

No one here is perfect. No one here has all the answers for you. The voices here only have their experience and life stories to share with you. And you will be able to connect to those stories insofar that you can listen to the what we have to say- even if it is said in anger and frustration- which comes from a well-spring of hurt and trauma.

Treating others how one would like to be treated goes both ways. In time, I hope you will come to see how your use of language is a trigger for many here.

Have you ever listened to your voice on tape? If you have, you will undoubtedly feel that the person speaking isn't you...it must be someone else. That's because sound waves travel in such a way that that our own ears don't pick up the sound of our voices as other people hear it. It's only when we learn to really listen to to our own voice- it's intent and meaning-and its effect on others- that we get some sense of who we are and our effect on the world around us. We also have to learn to listen to others instead of simply waiting to put in our thoughts.

Soulforce's goal is not to convince other people that they are wrong. That's a very poor goal. Did Jesus come to convince the world that they were 'wrong'? Great teachers don't teach that way. Likewise, as you express it, convincing gay people that they are 'wrong' is a goal that is bound to fail. It makes for condemnation. And condemnation never works- either for you or for us. It goes against the Golden Rule, which is a tough Rule, seeing that it turns the world of dog-eat-dog-one-must get-ahead-at-all-costs on its head.

Soulforce exists to shine a light on the very real consequences of homophobia and anti-gay prejudice. Gay people are an inconvenient truth to those who posit that the world should look like such and so- based on what? What some pastor said who never met an actual gay person, and is afraid of meeting one? Who knows nothing of gay people? This is a case of the blind leading the blind.

Rather than coming here to prove that you are right, you might be spending time asking gay people about their experiences and insights.

The greatest mystics repeatedly tell us that Truth speaks to us in silence. And with that in mind, I hope you will take what you have read and heard here and sit with it in that Silence. Real Silence- which is altogether different that the chattering the mind, which thinking it is the all that is the everything, cannot see anything other than itself because it is too busy being busy.

Only so that I could sign up after reading something like that. :D

[davidb]

Even after throwing my beliefs in your face, all I've done is offend you.

Throwing our belief's in each other's faces has a tendency to do that. And please know that the Equality Riders weren't trying to impose their beliefs on you. I know that you were told that was what was going on, but it truly wasn't. They were simply trying to personalize the effects that comments like Dr. Rogers have on gay people, and give you a face to go with the name, and to show you that the rhetoric really doesn't match the reality.

I came to try to figure out why you believe what you believe, and I have done so.

You've learned all you need to know about what we believe in the last 48 hours? Please know it's not that simple. Try to keep an open mind, and don't let your reading of Mel's pamphlet and the interactions you've had in this place form the basis for your beliefs about gay Christians. I've been out and proud for 15 years, and I still learn things about myself, my creator, and life all the time that come as a total surprise. Even though I grew up in the GARBC, and am a product of its churches and schools, I can't say with any real certainty that I know what you believe. Contrary to what I said last night, I really wouldn't presume to know your convictions, or what your beliefs will look like in five, ten, twenty years.

I still am convinced that homosexuality is a sin.

Okay, I respect that. I really do. And over the years I have become 100% convinced that homosexuality is not a sin. It is a simply what I am, no different from the fact that I have brown hair and green eyes. While I am different from the norm, I am no less than the norm. Yes I am a sinner, but my sexuality is not a sin.

So does the fact that we disagree on this fundamental issue mean that there is no room for dialogue between us? Are there no points that we can agree on? Is our common humanity to be disregarded because of this? If so--that's truly sad--and if you ask me, that stands in complete denial of the work of the Holy Spirit in both of our lives. If you are "fearfully and wonderfully made," and I am "fearfully and wonderfully made," then what are we supposed to do?

Yes, the river that we need to cross is very, very wide. Misunderstandings abound on both sides. Who knows, maybe its best that we not try to cross it. But if we are ever going to try, we are going to need a great deal of help. For me, the Equality Rides are taking steps to start these conversations. That is why I think it is so unfortunate that you were not given the opportuntity to have these conversations face-to-face.

I hope that you can keep an open heart and mind, and receive these remarks in the spirit with which they are intended.

[keltic63]

My turn to be blunt:


I came in without trying to sound respectful, so I apologize, I didn't think it was necessary (I like to be blunt in discussions like these). Know that I do respect your beliefs, no matter how wrong I think they are. My arguments were not "you have to agree with me" but "this is why you should agree with me". I also do accept you, and would welcome you into my house, as long as you dont have a malicious agenda.

Hey, this sounds like a respectful apology.

Even after reading Mel White's stuff, and everything else you have thrown in my face, I still am convinced that homosexuality is a sin.Oops, my bad. Eventhough it appeared to be an apology, it's becoming an accusation.

Even after throwing my beliefs in your face, all I've done is offend you.

And you did a damn good job of it.

I came to try to figure out why you believe what you believe, and I have done so.Here he is folks, the amazing DrizzT!!! able know all, see all, tell all in a few short hours spent in an internet forum.

I also came to try to convince you through discussion that you're wrong, and that is impossible. The only thing you're going to do is insult me and my beliefs.You came to convince us that we're all wrong and going to burn in hell for believing differently than you. You had no intention of understanding where lgbt persons are in their spiritual journeys.

Some of you have tried to calm people down, and I admire you for that. What I thought could have happened was a constructive intelligent debate, but most of you aren't willing to have one. If I continue this it will continue to be a meaningless debate.translation: some of you are a real credit to your race....err I mean, your kind of people.

Hopefully after reading this you can get to your senses and treat people how you want to be treated. Also, hopefully you'd be more willing to discuss with people that think homosexuality is a sin (there should probably be a seperate subforum for that).Well how could we resist such a charming invitation. "Hey asshole, when you sober up and get on prozac, I'd be willing to chat with you."

Please. I don't need your Christian love, it stinks, much like filthy rags.

[ladyinred]

Personally I'll have to agree with Keltic, this is getting soooooooooooooooooooo soooooooooooooooooo old trying to dialogue with people who aren't going to change their minds and have already reached the verdict anyway... :unhappy: :unhappy:

[davidb]

I was just reminded that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting that the result will be different.

[Daniel]

He said that. And the guy didn't start talking until he was 7 or 8. He also said:

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

As well as:

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."


And I can't resist one more:

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."

Who am I to argue with genius?

[Drizzt]

Please. I don't need your Christian love, it stinks, much like filthy rags.

Keltic, once again, you're arguing against doctrine, not discrimination. Understand at least that much.

[davidb]

Compassion
Main Entry: com·pas·sion
Pronunciation: k&m-'pa-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French or Late Latin; Anglo-French, from Late Latin compassion-, compassio, from compati to sympathize, from Latin com- + pati to bear, suffer -- more at PATIENT
: sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it
synonym see PITY
- com·pas·sion·less /-l&s/ adjective

Obviously this word is not in your vocabulary, Mr. Drittz. Maybe you should try to use it once in a while.

I am TOO through.

[keltic63]

Keltic, once again, you're arguing against DOGMA, not discrimination. Understand at least that much.


There, that's better.

[scott snedeker]

Drizzt,

The reason you were directed to this site was explained in my last post. If you cannot accept it, then you are not prepared for the this step in your spiritual growth. Come back in a year or so. You have more work to find a love of self before you can love others it seems. We will be here when you are ready.

[tpdncr4christ]

I came in without trying to sound respectful, so I apologize, I didn't think it was necessary (I like to be blunt in discussions like these). Know that I do respect your beliefs, no matter how wrong I think they are. My arguments were not "you have to agree with me" but "this is why you should agree with me". I also do accept you, and would welcome you into my house, as long as you dont have a malicious agenda.

Even after reading Mel White's stuff, and everything else you have thrown in my face, I still am convinced that homosexuality is a sin.

Even after throwing my beliefs in your face, all I've done is offend you.

I came to try to figure out why you believe what you believe, and I have done so.

I also came to try to convince you through discussion that you're wrong, and that is impossible. The only thing you're going to do is insult me and my beliefs.

Some of you have tried to calm people down, and I admire you for that. What I thought could have happened was a constructive intelligent debate, but most of you aren't willing to have one. If I continue this it will continue to be a meaningless debate.

Hopefully after reading this you can get to your senses and treat people how you want to be treated. Also, hopefully you'd be more willing to discuss with people that think homosexuality is a sin (there should probably be a seperate subforum for that).

Ok. Homosexuality is a sin. I'll go with you this time. Here's a little something you should learn about these people (as amazing as they are) they will take the tone you set. I have learned that lesson the hard way. You come in saying something that is stone, there gonna come back like stone. Not a good way to make friends.

Now, to the topic at hand. Dr. Mel White says Homosexuality isn't a sin. You say it is. Everyone else seems to be agreeing with good 'ol Mel, so I shoot for your argument. Let's say homosexuality, more specifically homosexual acts are considered sin by God on High. Let us say that love between to men or two women is abhorable in the eyes of God.

Ok.

What about divorce? Christ condemns divorce extensively throughout his Biblical career. He even says that to look upon another woman in a sexual way is to be considered adultery. That's one thing I don't understand about people who wish to protect the sanctity of marriage by not letting homosexuals get married, when straight people only get it right 40% of the time. The divorce rate is now nearly 60%. If you condemn homosexuals as you do, do you treat couples that have divorced the same way? Because it seems to me, that if homosexuality is indeed a sin, divorce and adultery are just as bad. If you preach to us, preach to them as well.

Now, concerning my family here:

This community is very, jumpy. That's something I've noticed. I love them all, but the second you disagree with one of them, they will jump down your throat and not hesitate to throttle you wrotten. For instance, if you come in saying people get too damned offended, they'll come back and tell you people have every damn right to get offended. And, sadly, they tend to be right. I know it's frustrating, but you can't expect them/us to listen to you when you come in not wanting to listen to us. Does that make sense? We are rooted firm in our beliefs, we have to be to survive, and I am sure you are rooted in yours. Do not expect that you can change the minds of people who have fought to get where they are today, without comming in willing to be changed. In a good debate, both parties leave with more understanding, and both parties leave with changed points of view. You cannot come in here and expect to sit us down and listen to you without you listening to us. Don't forget, this is our ground, our turf. If the community doesn't like you, you're gone. Which sucks, I know, so be nice to us. Listen to us, and we listen to you. I promise.

[pnggrad79]

I agree with Keltic, and loved how TP played the devil's advocate-well done, my friend.

My two cents-this guy Drizzt must have ego issues at best. Coming onto a predominantly gay website to preach hatred and ignorance and fundamental Christianity, is like, well, Mel White going to Westboro Baptist Church and trying to convince them they are wrong. What is Drizz trying to prove? Methinks he protesteth too much!

I neither have the time nor the inclination to argue with someone who can't see past his own prejudices and ignorances. He truly is a modern day Pharisee and he needs to go preach his venom somewhere else. Hey, I hear Westboro is hiring....

[Jamie McDaniel]

...is like, well, Mel White going to Westboro Baptist Church and trying to convince them they are wrong.


Ummm, that really happened. :rainbow:

"White and Phelps met for 90 minutes Wednesday afternoon at the Westboro Baptist Church, where Phelps is pastor."

www.soulforce.org/article/690

[Dash]

Ummm, that really happened. :rainbow:

"White and Phelps met for 90 minutes Wednesday afternoon at the Westboro Baptist Church, where Phelps is pastor."

www.soulforce.org/article/690

Holy Frijoles!!! He did what? :eek: Eeeepp!!

God bless Mel! When I engage angry opposition, I always feel like a naked man wandering into a den of snarling wolves...and that's only in cyberspace. To actually go there... He got some brass...:award:

[Daniel]

Oh....you mean....I get it.

Nice to have you back where you belong.....Dolly.

~

And you...the guy with the dancing shoes...nice work.

[ladyinred]

Bringing up the view that homosexuality is a sin. This is used as an excuse to deprive homosexuals of equal rights and to discriminate against them. Several people have pointed out that biblical verses condemn divorce and adultery. So why if they see sin as so abhorent are they not applying the same standards to people who do these things? Here is a point I'd like to make, Evangelicals have the highest rate of divorce in the nation. The red states or bible belt states have the highest rate of divorce over the blue(democratic states)

Since they claim to be so pious and moral why shouldn't the same thing apply to them. If anyone get's a divorce or commits adultery, he now can be discriminated against on that basis , he can be deprived, of housing , job opportunity and other consequences as well because of his "sinful nature".(Now you all know I don't really agree with this, but am trying to point out the hypocrisy of their viewpoints)If they see the sin as so abhorent and they believe in the bible, they are hypocrites when they apply a double standard, one "sin" is seen as worse than all the rest, and of course they reason away, "But yes, ours don't count, we are forgiven, and therefore justified in God's eyes ."So their's don't count? And they can overlook the biblical scripture that doen't fit into their liking and ignore "the word of God?"

[Rick336]

If they see the sin as so abhorent and they believe in the bible, they are hypocrites when they apply a double standard, one "sin" is seen as worse than all the rest, and of course they reason away, "But yes, ours don't count, we are forgiven, and therefore justified in God's eyes ."So their's don't count? And they can overlook the biblical scripture that doen't fit into their liking and ignore "the word of God?"

I agree. Their double standard beliefs fly in the face of logic and reason. But for some of these folks, logic and reason is not an option.

I have a fundamentalist friend who believes that it's the absolute truth that a donkey talked. It says so in the Bible. But he believes that global warming is a complete lie. No amount of evidence to the contrary will get him to see reason.

A suicide bomber who plans to blow up a bus load of innocent people believes that he'll get seventy-two virgins in heaven for his deed. The chances of him seeing the irrationality of this are slim.

This is why religious fundamentalism is so scary. Reason and logic don't work.

Rick

[Emproph]

...is like, well, Mel White going to Westboro Baptist Church and trying to convince them they are wrong.Ummm, that really happened. :rainbow:

"White and Phelps met for 90 minutes Wednesday afternoon at the Westboro Baptist Church, where Phelps is pastor."

[12/10/1999] www.soulforce.org/article/690Holy Frijoles!!! ... :eek: Eeeepp!!

He got some brass...:award:

He does, and I'll say it. He has some holy cohones.

[rustaman]

First off, Mr. Drizzt, I want to thank you for caring enough to come here for some dialogue. That is the whole reason for Soulforce, and it is indeed the reason the Equality Riders were at your school.

I am an older guy, and I have been around more blocks than you can imagine. What I have learned through experience is that dialogue means respecting each other’s right to have personal beliefs, opinions, ideas, and most importantly the right to not agree. As soon as I slip into “I am right, he or she is wrong,” the dialogue is over, and I am simply preaching my truth at the expense of others. Most people do not take kindly to that – as you have already noticed.

Please be aware that you are attending a school that has a particular way of teaching. You are being taught what they want you to know. It is defined as dogma. Intrinsically there is nothing wrong with that – it happens everywhere. It is one of the things institutions do. But the reality is that not everyone believes what you believe. Not everyone interprets scripture the way you do. It is also reality that neither the Religious Right, or your denomination, or your school, or you own the Bible, or any translation or interpretation of the Bible. Not everyone has the same spiritual beliefs that you do. And having the spiritual beliefs that you do makes you right only for yourself. It does not make you right, and me wrong.

If you do not agree with more recent translation studies that make it clear that what is being talked about in the Bible is NOT homosexuality per se, that is OK. If I do not agree with your translation, that is OK too. But, and this is a very big BUT (and very hard for me) it is not your job or my job to judge this or each other – read Matthew 7:1-5. Our task is to take the high road, the “narrow path” in scripture, as often as we possibly can. To reach out to each other with love and understanding, to practice compassion, to help the poor, the needy, the sick, and the less fortunate is what Jesus lived and stressed over and over and over.

No one is asking you to agree with what we believe. What we ask is that you treat us with the same respect and dignity that you expect from others. If you seek to understand, come to the discussion with an open heart and an open mind. If you are only here to judge and challenge, as scripture says, please shake the dust off your shoes, and move on.

[pnggrad79]

Wow, Mel White actually met with Phelps? Unbelievable. I am glad Mel had the "brass" to do it. Mel is serious about his mission to bring reconciliation between the gay and straight communities, beginning with the churches, where most of this animosity was born. You gotta go to the source with it.

This guy, DrizzT, may need a visit from Mel as well. Actually Drizz might need to read What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey, in which he details Mel's coming out experience and his willingness to embrace his friend and extend to him grace even though he doesn't agree with him. That is more than most straight churches are willing to do. They want to just heap on the abuse and hatred, and have no idea what grace is, much less how to dispense it.

[Freespirited]

The primary reason that I don't believe homosexuality is a sin is that I was attracted to males from the beginning of my sexual awakening (at age 7). I had the Hots for Iron Man and Captain America.:lol:

If God created me with this attraction to men only to command me later to not passionately love the man (men) who holds my heart, while Heterosexuals are entitled to this joy with his blessing, then He created me for the purpose of suffering loneliness and self hatred.

I would then be a second class human with less entitlement than those who were created with attraction to the opposite sex.

It would be like raisnig a kitten only to kill it slowly by feeding it bird seed instead of its proper diet.

These would both appear to be examples of asinine cruelty.

I know better than to accuse God of asinine cruelty.

When reading passages of Leviticus, Many interpret from them that homosexuality is against God's will. This I believe Is by taking direct literal meaning of these passages taken out of any context.

If other passages are taken in this same fashion we would also be commanded to not wear polester-cotton blend shirts, sell our wives, stone people who divorced and remarried, be excluded from heaven for having testicular cancer, etc.....

My God loves me unconditionally whether I wear cotton spandex shorts or eat an egg Mcmuffin or make love to a man. If these passages are indeed accurate and written by God, then My recociliation of the two would be that these pasages are a test for me written by Him for me to recognize when lies are written or spoken that falsely suggest God creates some people to satisfy a cruel gratification. That would explain the trivial "wearing mixed fiber" abomination clause in leviticus.

I am however a pagan as it is. For me there is no sin. Only love (God's will) or absence of love (against God's will)

My message is this: Learn to break down barriers to unconditional love and allow love to fiil our soul without condemnation or judgement and you will feel God's true presence more than ever before. I believe that you were directed to this site to receive this very message. When love wins over condemnation we all win. :love:


Don't mind me folks! I am new to this website! I am just reading by
random some of the member's thoughts, and so far I am very pleased
of what I read! I am delighted to feel a sense of pride. wisdom, and
openmindness being expressed, encouraged, and shared by almost
everyone in this forum. And what I love is the fact that most of
you are not overly sensitive and close minded to differences
of opinions or even attacks from those who don't agree with our
sexuality! good for you guys and girls!


Getting back to the topic! I think that the most important thing we
christians should keep in mind is that love does not discriminate
against gender, sexual identity, or religious peoples! the bottom
line is that our primary mission as fellow christians is to be and
act as humanly as posible and foremost towards all peoples, then
to work towards any other hidden agenda we may have!


Furthermore if the Bible condemns divorces why are there so
many "good" heterosexual christians getting divorced? if
Jesus Christ expressed anger at the merchants selling their
merchandise infront a place of worship why do modern
day christians openly allow flea markets and even Bingo at
their local churches? and the list goes on of many other
sinful things that is allowed but nothing to do with love,
which in essence is the key mission of every good christian
to follow and set as an example! but when two men love
each other why most christians and even some some gay
christians consider it a sin???? is love a sin too then????


LEANDRO

[tdogg]

Drizz

For what it's worth - my 2 cents:

You believe homosexuality is a sin. I believe it is not.

You feel that you have gained an understanding of what GLBT people (or at least 'us' here on the forums) are all about in 48 hours. I say impossible - most of us took years to figure out ourselves - we are still at it. Even if you spend 48 hours straight reading and watching and listening, there is NO way you could understand who we are, what we are and what we are all about. You could however, begin to start gaining an understanding...

I haven't read the other thread that this seems to be a sub topic of - so I'm not sure what all transpired. I seem to get a feel that you think some of the people here were not respectful or kind to you. It will help to know you cannot gain an understanding of what we are about in 48 hours, so perhaps to have better dialogue you'll need to be more compassionate and less judgmental. More work, but it will work better.

Have you read all the threads and posts on these forums? If not, I suggest you do. What books have you read? Documentaries have you watched? GLBT people have you talked to? Doing all of this will certainly help to grow your understanding of us.

You are welcome here, believe that. But also know that we have heard your argument countless times from countless others and we don't have to go there anymore. The debate of whether or not our sexuality - and in turn ourselves - is sinful, is over. We do not believe it is - regardless of what you or others believe. So coming here to say we are sinful and who we are is sinful isn't going to get you far.

But if you really truly genuinely want to gain an understand of GLBT people, I think depending on your approach you should have some excellent dialogue if you just prepare yourself with some knowledge and compassions.

Welcome anyway, and I hope you are able to find constructive mutually respectful dialogue and take away some profound ideas and thoughts to carefully and lovingly consider.

Tdogg

[BruceChris]

First off, I'm not sure if anyone has done any serious research on this or not, but it is highly likely that more than half of all heterosexual acts are preformed outside of marriage. In either case, I think that it is just as accurate to say that Heterosexuality is a sin.

It's nice to be able to add a little balance here, and keep things in perspective

Other than that, my religious beliefs tell me that before anyone can be forgiven, they have to be in a state of contrition and humility, before they can even ask for it, in a manner that is acceptable to God. I do not believe that anyone who is sitting in judgdment can rightfully ask to be forgiven their sins.

(edit) But then again, the above paragraph is pretty judgemental


Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[andrewlittle]

I was getting ready to do a "where's Bruce" thread. Glad to have you back among the righteous, buddy.

[u-dog]

I didn't realize he was missing :confused:

[BruceChris]

Yeah, I haven't been around a whole lot. My Computer guru tells me that my motherboard is toast, and it may be a Looong tme before he can fix me up. So I use the computer at the church, and get on when I can.

But hey, if ya really miss me that much, I'm sure I can think of some suitable put-downs to tide you over, until I get back online.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[u-dog]

No, no... thats fine. (nice to see you fella!)