call me crazy

[manutd2090]

but honestly I think it's a mistake to lock the thread "gee thanks" because it's a topic that really needs to be talked about. Although when people start swearing and using harsh words I suppose locking it isn't such a bad idea. Anyways I figured I'd just start a new thread to pick up the conversation again, but keep it clean and cool. A lot of you probably won't be happy to hear that I agree with Drizzt, the topic starter. I think that everything he said made really good points and everything he took from the bible was absolutely true.

Now I don't know how you guys were treated throughout your trip, but I would expect you ran into a lot of people who just turned their heads and treated you like dirt. Now THAT is something I would disagree with. I think you're beliefs aren't exactly correct, but I'm willing to hear you out and listen to what you have to say, AS LONG AS you are willing to hear mine. I won't go on right now to quote bible verses and whatnot seeing as everyone pretty much covered that. So I just want to see what else people have to say about this. Give me your arguments. Calmly.

[Daniel]

Now I don't know how you guys were treated throughout your trip, but I would expect you ran into a lot of people who just turned their heads and treated you like dirt. Now THAT is something I would disagree with. I think you're beliefs aren't exactly correct, but I'm willing to hear you out and listen to what you have to say, AS LONG AS you are willing to hear mine. I won't go on right now to quote bible verses and whatnot seeing as everyone pretty much covered that. So I just want to see what else people have to say about this. Give me your arguments. Calmly.

What? You've been reading Anne Heche?

Suggestion: if you want to play ball you're going to have to make the first move. What's on your mind? The more specific you can be, the better.

[manutd2090]

I pretty much agree with everything Drizzt says. I didn't really get into my arguments because I wanted to hear what people had to say about what Drizzt had been saying. Anyways after posting this thread I noticed Drizzt had posted another thread where the conversation had picked back up, maknig my thread pointless. However if anyone would like to start something up here, I'd be glad to talk.

my opinions:

Homosexuality is a sin. It states more than once how it is in the Bible. However I also believe that lying is a sin. And I do that a lot, many people do. What I'm saying is that one sin is no different from another sin. Homosexuals don't need to be called out and have people yell at them for sinning. Everyone sins. It's part of our life ever since the fall of man.

[Emproph]

I pretty much agree with everything Drizzt says. I didn't really get into my arguments because I wanted to hear what people had to say about what Drizzt had been saying. Anyways after posting this thread I noticed Drizzt had posted another thread where the conversation had picked back up, maknig my thread pointless. However if anyone would like to start something up here, I'd be glad to talk.

my opinions:

Homosexuality is a sin. It states more than once how it is in the Bible. However I also believe that lying is a sin. And I do that a lot, many people do. What I'm saying is that one sin is no different from another sin. Homosexuals don't need to be called out and have people yell at them for sinning. Everyone sins. It's part of our life ever since the fall of man.

I have a horrible time getting answers to these questions if you care to take a stab at it. Keep in mind though that I seldom take prisoners, but if you want me to respect that your beliefs are actually based on the Bible, as opposed to just coinciding with it, then I need to know that you also believe in the parts of the Bible that are not socially popular (or at least why you don't).

If one's moral (Biblical) beliefs aren’t truly Biblical, then saying that they are is a lie. In this case, a lie to justify a false witness. Which in my experience is usually, but not always the case (I just want to clarify that I don't dismiss a person's Biblical beliefs condemning homosexuality out of hand).

And I'm not asking for an essay or all 'the right answers' in response as I realize some of this may require some thought, even if it's just the thought required to articulate your position. But I would sincerely appreciate as thorough (at least as far as acknowledging the points presented here goes) of an honest reponse as possible. :)

Some of this may not apply to you directly but helps to show where I'm coming from, and it may provide an opportunity to show where you stand on certain things that are often brought up as well.

~~
Cutting to the chase, I'd like to know how on earth you guys manage to justify homosexuality even through these verses

"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out ot us so we ocan have sex with them."
Genesis 19:4-5

If this is one of the things that convinces you homosexuality is wrong, what is the connection between gang rape and my need to love and be loved?

And what do you think it says about someone's idea of morality when gang rape is equated with my need to love an be loved – for the expressed purpose of condemning homosexuality – before condemning the patently abhorrent behavior of oh-so-holy Lot offering up his own daughters to be gang-raped in order to protect his two male stranger guests?

~~
This part I posted in another thread but it hasn’t been responded to, so I’ll repost it here with some modification.

how do you reconsile the argument of not lying with a male as a woman? how can we as christians get around that? and the fact that God says and lists homosexuality as a sin that is "abhorant" in his eyes?
leviticus 20:13 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:13;&version=31;)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

I’d like to know why this verse is so commonly used to describe lesbians as well as gay men. Sure you can still go the Romans 1 route to make your point, but to use this verse to condemn homosexuality is inaccurate at best and intentional deception at worst.

And how do you reconcile God's supposed admonition to have we homosexual males "put to death?" Is this also one of your Biblical beliefs? If not (assuming you believe the condemnation part is accurate), why not?

Or, as in Luke 16:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2016:18;&version=31;)
Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
leviticus 20:10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=leviticus%2020:10&version=31)
'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
How do you reconcile the argument that those who are remarried (outside of the biblical exceptions for divorce; spousal adultery and non-belief) should be condemned as adulterers AND be put to death?

Surely there are many more unrepentant adulterers (via remarriage) than there are homosexuals that are doomed to eternal damnation. Why is this not proportionately more of a concern?

To sacrifice the salvation of a majority (adulterers), for the condemnation of a minority (homosexuals), appears to me as being even MORE sinful than homosexuality and/or adultery combined.

Even if we were "reprobate of mind," how would we know that you recognize truth better than us, when such a significant Biblical truth as that is completely ignored?

do you believe perhaps that is possible to have been given over to a reprobate mind... that is being given up to your own desires.... as the scriptures say that God will do.. is sometimes give people over to reprobate minds?

A better question might be why God didn't explain the connection between same-sex attraction itself and inherent evil (reprobate mind). Evil in my book as per Jesus' second command (LIKE the first), is the desire to do harm to others.

I have yet to hear a VALID theory on that. (same-sex attraction = hurt others)

i am not comparing your orientation to murder.. i am just curious to know what you think about that question.. why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptable...
and i don't believe pedophilia is right.. but what do you think?:)

Thus the reason for age-of-consent laws. Most children are not mature enough to understand the potentially detrimental effects of sex. It usually causes great psychological and/or physical harm, thus we call it child abuse. Like murder or theft or rape, one doesn't need to be taught that this is NOT doing unto others as you would have done unto you, or Loving your neighbor as yourself.

And:
why would God not be more clear cut of gayness if it were acceptablePerhaps to test those who claim to know the true nature of Good and evil - to ensure that it is understood that such a nature is NOT arbitrary. That the determination of evil requires the discovery of something harmful to others.

I realize manutd that you said this:
What I'm saying is that one sin is no different from another sin. So as far as those last few points go in regard to the nature of sin, how is it possible to believe that all sin is equal? Is Hitler on par with the person who "covets" their neighbor's lawn? Or is it just those sins that have no discernable aspect of harm-to-others that are equal?

Do you work on the Sabbath, or do you have a day set a aside that you consider to be the Sabbath? That's one of the ten commandments, I'm assuming that part of the Bible still applies. And what about coveting, also one of the 10 commandments. Does this sin, and all of the others offend you as much as homosexuality?

And remember, I am convinced that I was born this way. I clarify with the word "convinced" for your benefit and NOT because of any lingering doubt on my part. Point being, I wasn't born coveting. Envy is a chosen thought, the need to love and be loved is something humans are born with, as in created by God with. To condemn "homosexuality" is to condemn this. That's why there's precious little room to avoid coming across as offensive when you say homosexuality is a sin. It is to claim that my desire for happiness, in and of itself is sinful.

If you think I'm delusional or confused about my having been born this way or that I am too confused to understand the difference between promiscuous sex and love itself, then please say so, but please don't skirt the issue for fear of being offensive. You very well may be offensive, but avoiding the magnitude of what you suggest is even MORE offensive. And I'm not too confused to recognize that.

how do you feel about these sexually immoral things which are sins against your own body?
If the argument is about "sins against the body," why wouldn't those sins that cause the destruction of the body be MORE important than the sexual one's? Wouldn't we start with the Tobacco and Alcohol industries as compared with masturbation? Masturbation doesn't kill you or negatively affect anyone else as far as I can tell, yet over 1000 people a day die from cigarettes. What do you think God thinks about those sins against the body that also affect the rest of society?

~~
Again manutd, my point is this. You claim that homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says so and you want to know how we "justify" ourselves. Before I can even respect your premise, I need to know that your belief in the Bible is credible – first. Because it has been my experience that a good 90% of the people who make this same claim are full of s**t. And to be fair, I'm not including the ones who are only a half or a quarter full of it, or even those who are totally full of it but get an A for effort!

Ultimately what it comes down to is not whether or not you agree with our witness, but the manner in which you express your disagreement. That goes for any issue, not just LGBT, and of course that admonition applies to us as well.

The Golden Rule. Not necessarily my forte', but definitely the goal.

[Daniel]

I pretty much agree with everything Drizzt says. I didn't really get into my arguments because I wanted to hear what people had to say about what Drizzt had been saying. Anyways after posting this thread I noticed Drizzt had posted another thread where the conversation had picked back up, maknig my thread pointless. However if anyone would like to start something up here, I'd be glad to talk.

my opinions:

Homosexuality is a sin. It states more than once how it is in the Bible. However I also believe that lying is a sin. And I do that a lot, many people do. What I'm saying is that one sin is no different from another sin. Homosexuals don't need to be called out and have people yell at them for sinning. Everyone sins. It's part of our life ever since the fall of man.

You are not the first person to offer the opinion expressed above. And btw, this opinion may fall outside the guidelines which you signed in order to register as a member.

With all due respect to your person and interest in conversation, it would be helpful for those of us here if you acquainted yourself first with the material addressing the verses in the bible that you allude to.

You will find the relevant material here:

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible

[manutd2090]

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you guys justify yourselves. That's all.

Anyways in regards to Emproph

And remember, I am convinced that I was born this way

First off I want to make myself clear that I understand that and I do believe that. Even though I think your beliefs may be wrong, I'm not asking you to change them, all I am asking is for you to consider what I'm saying. If you do that I'll do the same for you.



If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

I’d like to know why this verse is so commonly used to describe lesbians as well as gay men. Sure you can still go the Romans 1 route to make your point, but to use this verse to condemn homosexuality is inaccurate at best and intentional deception at worst.

And how do you reconcile God's supposed admonition to have we homosexual males "put to death?" Is this also one of your Biblical beliefs? If not (assuming you believe the condemnation part is accurate), why not?

Again, I agree with you on that fact that this verse may be somewhat inaccurate to condemn homosexuality. I don't believe that homosexuals should be put to death because this verse is from the old testament. Back then God's laws were a lot more strict and extreme. Once Jesus died on the cross a lot of things changed. However both the Old and New Testament comdemn homosexuality.


Is Hitler on par with the person who "covets" their neighbor's lawn?

My answer to this is yes. In God's eyes. On earth these two sins are clearly different, but in God's eyes a sin is a sin.


In short, I'm not trying to call you guys terrible sinners. I'm not any more offended by you than any other sinners. I think theres no reason why you can't be treated equally in today's society. I understand that you don't "choose" to be gay, but it's just something you're born with, it's the way your mind just works. And I know that asking a homosexual to change there ways is like asking a straight person to become gay. I don't expect you to change your ways just because I'm telling you I'm wrong. I just want to clerify that being gay is a sin.

[u-dog]

I just want to clerify that being gay is a sin.

So you are saying that you AGREE that Homosexuality is not a BEHAVIOR, that it IS a state of being but that that STATE OF BEING is ... sin?


So I am sinning simply by living and breathing? irrespective of who or what I screw?

[BruceChris]

In answer to your last question, I have absolutely NO reason, OR need, to justify myself, because I know that God loves me.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[kara speltz]

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you guys justify yourselves. That's all.



Damn I hate it when people have the audacity to say "justify yourselves." Who do you think you are? I don't have to justify my life to you or any other human being. God knows what's in my heart and that's all I need.

The arrogance of heterosexuality is obscene in my estimation. Just like the KKK thinking whites are superior to blacks and jews, etc.

Do your own damn homework. If you want to know what I think about being gay, I suggest you read, "What the Bible Says & Doesn't Say About HOmosexuality." You don't even have to buy it, you can download it from our website.

Would you go on a black forum and ask black people to justify themselves?

Get a life. Focus on your own damn sins. My sins have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING GAY. They all relate to my failure to love my brothers and sisters enough to, "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned," which Jesus says is what we'll be judged for.

kara

[Emproph]

I just want to clerify that being gay is a sin.

I also believe that lying is a sin. And I do that a lot...

Then we’re in agreement. Being gay is not a sin.

[keltic63]

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you guys justify yourselves. That's all.

How do you justify yourself? You readily admit that you have sin in your life, and that your sin is one mentioned several times in the Bible. How will you make it into heaven with this ongoing, unrepentant sin that you're involved in?

I'm not sure God really needs us to justify our existance to each other. That would imply some hierarchy. What is the reason that I would need to justify myself as Christian and Gay, to you?



Again, I agree with you on that fact that this verse may be somewhat inaccurate to condemn homosexuality. I don't believe that homosexuals should be put to death because this verse is from the old testament. Back then God's laws were a lot more strict and extreme. Once Jesus died on the cross a lot of things changed. However both the Old and New Testament comdemn homosexuality.They condemn a lot of other things as well. The New Testament adds things to the gospel. Paul in particular placed a lot of extras on top of Christ's message. Many of those things are now ignored, and I don't recall a Third Testament being written or another Messiah that came to earth to negate those rules that Paul added. What of those?



In short, I'm not trying to call you guys terrible sinners. I'm not any more offended by you than any other sinners. I think theres no reason why you can't be treated equally in today's society. Then I'm not sure I understand why you're here.


I understand that you don't "choose" to be gay, but it's just something you're born with, it's the way your mind just works. So, is it a sin, or not? You seem to be wishy-washy on this point.
And I know that asking a homosexual to change there ways is like asking a straight person to become gay. Yet that does seem to be the goal of so many fundamentalist christians, as well as many of the colleges the ER visited. Many of those colleges have not only expelled students for being gay, they've sent them to reparative therapy to change their orientation. Professional organizations agree that such therapy is not proven to be effective, and may actually be more damaging than helpful.
I don't expect you to change your ways just because I'm telling you I'm wrong.We know you're wrong about homosexuality. glad to see you admit that.

I just want to clerify that being gay is a sin.didn't you just say that you were wrong??? :confused:

[antonyh]

Give me your arguments. Calmly.


Oh great white, heterosexual male...I guess you did not get what you wanted :lol:

Damn I hate it when people have the audacity to say "justify yourselves." Who do you think you are? I don't have to justify my life to you or any other human being. God knows what's in my heart and that's all I need.

The arrogance of heterosexuality is obscene in my estimation. Just like the KKK thinking whites are superior to blacks and jews, etc.

Do your own damn homework. If you want to know what I think about being gay, I suggest you read, "What the Bible Says & Doesn't Say About HOmosexuality." You don't even have to buy it, you can download it from our website.

Would you go on a black forum and ask black people to justify themselves?

Get a life. Focus on your own damn sins. My sins have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING GAY. They all relate to my failure to love my brothers and sisters enough to, "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned," which Jesus says is what we'll be judged for.

kara

[manutd2090]

I'm sorry but I'm done here. I'm done with this thread and coming back to this website at all. For those of you who chose to express your opinion to me without biting my head off, thanks, and for those of you who just chose to swear at me, use sarcasm, etc., maybe you should think about holding your tongue. You don't represent your group (Soulforce) very well. The point that I was trying to make was that I disagree with you but I want to hear what you have to say because I'm not stubborn. Obviously most of you are. So what's the point? God is your judge, not me.

[Daniel]

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you guys justify yourselves. That's all.

Seeing that you've already been flamed by one member here (yes- gay people are flaming- they really are), I hope you are starting to understand that your first sentence above, from the perspective of a gay person, doesn't exactly jive with the second: this is deeply offensive material.

Why?

How about we put in in another context? LIke this.

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you jews justify yourselves. That's all.

or

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you blacks justify yourselves. That's all.

or

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you mexicans justify yourselves. That's all.


or

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you palestinians justify yourselves. That's all.

or

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you muslims justify yourselves. That's all.

Do I really need to go on? Do you get it yet?

How is it that human beings think that other human beings have to justify themselves? One group or another thinks that another group is beneath them it seems.

I hope you would agree that this kind of thinking is madness- and that you simply did not think things through before you wrote the words you did.

Either we are all Children of God or we are not.

Which is it?


~

Addendum:

Sorry you tripped over the doorsill on your way in. The reaction you have received should tell you one thing: attack- even though unwitting- usually gets a reaction out of people- and not a favorable one. You seem to expect us to be saints while at the same time reserving the right to call us sinners. Now, there's some irony for ya.

[tpdncr4christ]

Umm... first of all, I would like to take it upon myself to apologize for the behavior of the other members on this forum, which is something I find myself doing allot lately.

I'll more than gladly justify myself and my lifestyle to you if that is what you want. I don't find your curiosity offensive.

Why do we perceive homosexuality to be ok rather than a sin? We don't have a choice. I was born with attraction to males. All my life, from as early as the age of three I remember being interested in the male anatomy. I believe that God gave me these attractions for a reason, that I was called to be gay. I can't see myself falling in love with a woman. It's that simple.

Being gay, and being Christian is one of the most difficult things anyone could ever do. To still love a God, even though He condemns you for being who created is something that few people can do. I think gay Christians are at times can personify Christianity better than any others. Jesus called us to love our enemies, to love our neighbors as ourselves, and to love Him above all else. If you are gay, and Christian, than you love someone who condemns you. That takes strength and faith. It's not easy.

How can I justify this? I know I can love God because God loves me. I know He created me, and I know He loves me. I don't need a reason, I don't need an excuse to let me live my life and love the man I plan on falling in love with.

And if I do end up in Hell for the rest of eternity, I will gladly walk through the flames and turn my back on a God who created me for damnation. But I really don't think that's going to happen.

manutd2090, don't leave. Please... these folks can be a bit jumpy, but they loose their harshness with time. Remember you are blessed,

Austin

[antonyh]

I'm sorry but I'm done here. I'm done with this thread and coming back to this website at all. For those of you who chose to express your opinion to me without biting my head off, thanks, and for those of you who just chose to swear at me, use sarcasm, etc., maybe you should think about holding your tongue. You don't represent your group (Soulforce) very well. The point that I was trying to make was that I disagree with you but I want to hear what you have to say because I'm not stubborn. Obviously most of you are. So what's the point? God is your judge, not me.

:hissy: :hissy: :hissy: :hissy: :hissy:

I demand that you justify yourself!

[tpdncr4christ]

:hissy: :hissy: :hissy: :hissy: :hissy:

I demand that you justify yourself!

grow up. please

[antonyh]

grow up. please

Agitating people off their superior white male heterosexual thrones is exactly what Soulforce does every time they get arrested.

I am NOT the one that needs to grow up.

[tpdncr4christ]

Agitating people off their superior white male heterosexual thrones is exactly what Soulforce does every time they get arrested.

I am NOT the one that needs to grow up.

Indeed, throwing a hissy fit at someone who wants an honest calm dialogue does not merit any maturation at all. We all need to grow up, but come on. Sarcastic or not your response was immature. That is not the kind of appropriate dialogue that this forum is meant to sustain.

[kara speltz]

I'm sorry but I'm done here. I'm done with this thread and coming back to this website at all. For those of you who chose to express your opinion to me without biting my head off, thanks, and for those of you who just chose to swear at me, use sarcasm, etc., maybe you should think about holding your tongue. You don't represent your group (Soulforce) very well. The point that I was trying to make was that I disagree with you but I want to hear what you have to say because I'm not stubborn. Obviously most of you are. So what's the point? God is your judge, not me.

My, such a sensitive soul. I didn't realize you'd take a couple of damns so intensely. I can't use the word damn in your presence but you can tell me to justify myself? Talk about double standards!

And Austin, for the record. Don't ever apologize for me.

There was nothing I said that you needed to apologize for.

kara

[ladyinred]

manutd2090
Now let me ask you to justify yourselves. How do you who call yourself Christians overlook what Jesus said about divorce and adultery and remarrying? Perhaps we need some answers from you? After all you believe the bible is the inerrant word of God,why don't YOU follow it then?Let's point out the letters of Paul that you say condemn homosexuality ,why do you overlook in the same paragraph that he says adulterers and fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God, I'd like to ask you some more about biblical scriptures and will point out others as well if you will answer my questions. Why do you eat pork if it is forbidden in the old testament? Why don't you follow the sabbath rules as laid out in the old testament? Why don't you stone adulterers as it is laid out in the old testament?Why do you wear clothes with mixed fibers if it is condemned by the old testament? Why don't you just have sex soley for procreation as you say it is laid out in the bible? Isn't sex outside having children supposedly a sin to you all,even if you are married? What about married men looking on another woman with lust in his heart, and Jesus describing this as adultery ? This is just the tip of the iceberg, I have lots of other questions to ask you as well. Now tell me how do you justify your selves?

[ladyinred]

Well I guess Kara has has been sworn at so much being told she is going to hell for being a lesbian, I guess we can overlook a few damns on her part.At least she didn't say damn you all to hell.LOL

[manutd2090]

Being gay, and being Christian is one of the most difficult things anyone could ever do. To still love a God, even though He condemns you for being who created is something that few people can do. I think gay Christians are at times can personify Christianity better than any others. Jesus called us to love our enemies, to love our neighbors as ourselves, and to love Him above all else. If you are gay, and Christian, than you love someone who condemns you. That takes strength and faith. It's not easy.

How can I justify this? I know I can love God because God loves me. I know He created me, and I know He loves me. I don't need a reason, I don't need an excuse to let me live my life and love the man I plan on falling in love with.


Honestly I really admire your post. It gives me hope that there are others out there who have some sense to take a step back at look at something from all sides.


And if I do end up in Hell for the rest of eternity, I will gladly walk through the flames and turn my back on a God who created me for damnation. But I really don't think that's going to happen.


Like I said before we are all sinners no matter what sin it is that you commit. I DO NOT believe that you will go to hell for being gay. God loves everyone and the grace of God is incredible. If it means anything to you, this group has changed my views of homosexuality quite a bit, but I still believe that it's not right. It's just something I grew up on and what I've been taught. But what I have learned is that there is no reason someone who's gay can't be a Christian. I was actually speaking with a friend not too long ago, who had a friend that went to Christian school his whole life, and then at his 10 year high school reunion came out and told his close friends he was gay. It takes a lot to be gay and be Christian, and that's something I really admire you guys for. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you should be excommunicated.

"Jesus loves the outcasts. He loves the ones the world loves to hate. And as long as there's a heaven, there'll be a failure to excommunicate."
-Relient K

[manutd2090]

manutd2090
Now let me ask you to justify yourselves. How do you who call yourself Christians overlook what Jesus said about divorce and adultery and remarrying? Perhaps we need some answers from you? After all you believe the bible is the inerrant word of God,why don't YOU follow it then?Let's point out the letters of Paul that you say condemn homosexuality ,why do you overlook in the same paragraph that he says adulterers and fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God, I'd like to ask you some more about biblical scriptures and will point out others as well if you will answer my questions. Why do you eat pork if it is forbidden in the old testament? Why don't you follow the sabbath rules as laid out in the old testament? Why don't you stone adulterers as it is laid out in the old testament?Why do you wear clothes with mixed fibers if it is condemned by the old testament? Why don't you just have sex soley for procreation as you say it is laid out in the bible? Isn't sex outside having children supposedly a sin to you all,even if you are married? What about married men looking on another woman with lust in his heart, and Jesus describing this as adultery ? This is just the tip of the iceberg, I have lots of other questions to ask you as well. Now tell me how do you justify your selves?

You bring up a lot of good points. And you're right, all those are sins just the same. I never said that they weren't sinning. It's just that the topic we're talking about is being gay. As for the "laws" talked about in the Old Testament, I already went over that.

[manutd2090]

My, such a sensitive soul. I didn't realize you'd take a couple of damns so intensely. I can't use the word damn in your presence but you can tell me to justify myself? Talk about double standards!

You call yourself a Christian and yet you repeatedly and openly take the Lord's name in vain? Sorry I don't mean to be rude but, it's true

[kara speltz]

You call yourself a Christian and yet you repeatedly and openly take the Lord's name in vain? Sorry I don't mean to be rude but, it's true

Where did I take the Lord's name in vain? I think you've lost your mind.

[antonyh]

You call yourself a Christian and yet you repeatedly and openly take the Lord's name in vain? Sorry I don't mean to be rude but, it's true

I didn't know Damn was one of the Lord's names :confused:

[manutd2090]

You call yourself a Christian and you continually and openly swear
Satisfied?

As for you I don't question your Christianity because you're gay, but because of your actions towards others

I was starting to warm up to this group until you started mocking me. You don't represent the group very well at all...

[ladyinred]

Isn't the point you are trying to make here is gays are sinners,and why is it inappropriate for me here to point out biblical scriptures about "sins"?

[manutd2090]

Isn't the point you are trying to make here is gays are sinners,and why is it inappropriate for me here to point out biblical scriptures about "sins"?

Yes but adultery has never been questioned as being a sin or not. Homosexuality has.

[antonyh]

You call yourself a Christian and you continually and openly swear
Satisfied?

As for you I don't question your Christianity because you're gay, but because of your actions towards others

The Apostle Paul told the Galatians, "I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves!"

See there is swearing in the Bible too.

[ladyinred]

Perhaps a simple statement would sum this up. "Why do you look at the mote in your brother's eye without perceiving the beam in your own?"

[ladyinred]

As for people on this forum continiously swearing that is hardly the case, but of course I doubt if a single person on earth could proclaim to being perfect and having never had slips of the tongue from time to time, no one I know of at least. In the heat of frustration or anger can you honestly say you've never sworn?

[antonyh]

As for people on this forum continiously swearing that is hardly the case, but of course I doubt if a single person on earth could proclaim to being perfect and having never had slips of the tongue from time to time, no one I know of at least. In the heat of frustration or anger can you honestly say you've never sworn?

Then there is Jesus: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for ye are like whited sepulchres, which appear beautiful outwardly, but within are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness."

Maybe we don't swear enough at homophobia.

No offense, but this is not the cute little Sunday School class you attend where everyone wears a suit and pretends they are righteous.

You are among people who have been oppressed by people who call us sinners. It is a little more messy and honest out here!

[u-dog]

Things are getting a little snippy around here and I for one would like it to stop.

Manutide2090 has expressed an unpopular and insulting opinion and we have heard it. Perhaps we need not hear it again? If Manutide2090 would now like to ask us about our experiences or our understanding of the relevant biblical texts (other than asking us to "justify ourselves" of course) he could do so in a respectful and caring way.

The rest of us have had the opportunity to vent our anger at being insulted by Manutide2090's opinion and maybe we could all just calm down, reign in the sarcasm a smidge and move on now?

Sort of "Torpedo the damns, full speed ahead" so to speak :lol:

[manutd2090]

The Apostle Paul told the Galatians, "I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves!"

See there is swearing in the Bible too.


Paul was a sinner just like you and me. I swear too, as bad as it is, but I just don't think it's absolutly necessary to use in Christian forum.

[manutd2090]

Things are getting a little snippy around here and I for one would like it to stop.

Manutide2090 has expressed an unpopular and insulting opinion and we have heard it. Perhaps we need not hear it again? If Manutide2090 would now like to ask us about our experiences or our understanding of the relevant biblical texts (other than asking us to "justify ourselves" of course) he could do so in a respectful and caring way.

The rest of us have had the opportunity to vent our anger at being insulted by Manutide2090's opinion and maybe we could all just calm down, reign in the sarcasm a smidge and move on now?

Sort of "Torpedo the damns, full speed ahead" so to speak


Alright let me address the "justify yourselves" expression. Looking back on it, probably not the best phrase to use, I'll admit. You guys probably get that a lot and are sick of it. My apologies.

I never tried to start up a heated argument, just a simple debate where you could back up your ideas.

[u-dog]

The Apostle Paul told the Galatians, "I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves!"

See there is swearing in the Bible too.

That isn't really swearing Antony. Paul is making an ironic little joke. The "unsettlers" are encouraging Galatian men to get circumcized and arguing that circumcision is a pre-requisite to inclusion in the church. Paul is saying that he wishes they would RADICALLY circumsize themselves. Sort of like when my mother used to threaten the cat with "I'm going to cut off your tail behind your ears!"

[u-dog]

If circumcision is akin to "taking a little off the top" castration is a buzz cut. he is hoping that the knife will slip and they will end up wihout children. need I be clearer? Its a little harsh, but its as close to a joke as Paul ever gets. not a really funny guy as a rule, but that comment always makes me laugh.

[antonyh]

If circumcision is akin to "taking a little off the top" castration is a buzz cut. he is hoping that the knife will slip and they will end up wihout children. need I be clearer? Its a little harsh, but its as close to a joke as Paul ever gets. not a really funny guy as a rule, but that comment always makes me laugh.

:lol:

Can I tell superior white heterosexual males that call us sinners that I wish they would castrate themselves instead of using the word "damn". Oh, sorry that was Kara.

[manutd2090]

I like to kiss boys, what's to debate

Haha well I guess when you put it that way, I've got nothing.

hah, just kidding. But seriously, the way you live your life is totally up to you, and no one can make you stop. I'm just telling you my belief in order to listen to what you and other people have to say about it. And a lot of people have given good replies and made good points. My idea of homosexuality being a sin hasn't changed, but I will look on it in a much different way from now on.

[manutd2090]

Can I tell superior white heterosexual males that call us sinners that I wish they would castrate themselves instead of using the word "damn". Oh, sorry that was Kara.

Are you implying that you want me to castrate myself? Ouch. I'm trying my best to be nice and not saying anything too terrible that would make other people want me to castrate myself. I wish this thread was a little bit more light-hearted. I mean it's a serious subject but let's not all get too serious about it.

[u-dog]

Man? Can you be specific about what you want to know about how we think about our sexuality and its relationship to our spirituality? Is there a way of thinking that you don't understand or find questionable? is there a particular biblical text that you feel is a slam dunk that we could help you see in an alternate way?

[antonyh]

Are you implying that you want me to castrate myself? Ouch. I'm trying my best to be nice and not saying anything too terrible that would make other people want me to castrate myself. I wish this thread was a little bit more light-hearted. I mean it's a serious subject but let's not all get too serious about it.

I was just trying to see if we could replace damn with more Biblical language.

[ladyinred]

Personally, I don't see my statements as sarcastic, but logical. Since someone wants to point out to us why homosexuality is a sin, why not examine biblical verses that pertain to them on adultery and divorce and ask them questions about their stand on biblical scripture.

Now to explain the one's they pointed out that seem to be about homosexual behavior.I can understand their outrage to gang rape as it seems to imply in the story of Sodom and Gommorrah that the men who were knocking on Lot's door tried to do. No one would agree with violent sex acts of any kind from any person regardless of their sexual orientation. But what if it was rape of a woman, would that be any less outrageous?And how many homosexuals today do you know go knocking on peoples' door to gang rape somebody, they would be in the minority. And as far the LGBT community approving of such behavior from their own kind that would hardly be the case. We aren't asking for support to commit crimes against others by any means.

[u-dog]

:lol:

Can I tell superior white heterosexual males that call us sinners that I wish they would castrate themselves instead of using the word "damn". Oh, sorry that was Kara.

No that would not be an appropriate analogy. However if you were to suggest that a SWHM go F*** himself THAT would be analogous to Paul's joke. ;)

[manutd2090]

I just want to know what bible verses and whatnot you use to back up that homosexuality is not sinning. I guess I probably should've said that from the start. sorry.

[u-dog]

That would be like me asking you what Bible verses you use to justify eating scallops or being left handed.

[antonyh]

No that would not be an appropriate analogy. However if you were to suggest that a SWHM go F*** himself THAT would be analogous to Paul's joke. ;)

Never thought about that :D :lol:

[u-dog]

"I have always understood the Sodom and Gomorah story in Genesis to be a prohibition against homosexual behavior. Can you help me understand why you don't think that it is?"

[manutd2090]

That would be like me asking you what Bible verses you use to justify eating scallops or being left handed.

Well you could ask me what Bible verses I use to back up that homosexuality is a sin. That might be a little bit better.

But if you're saying that you can't use any bible verses to back up your beliefs, then how do you think it's right?

(once again people, if any of my posts sound rude, I don't mean for them to be, so please don't write up some angry reply to me. Just tell me why you think I'm wrong)

[Alecto]

Um, just throwing this out there. I usually don't comment on these kinds of things, because my beliefs tend to align close to what Kara has expressed.
And, I'm usually not feeling patient, or in any way responsible for having any kind of nonviolent dialogue with people. I shouldn't have to "justify myself" (as has been expressed), and the burden shouldn't be on ME to educate straight people. If they want to know, they should take it upon themselves to find out, and to read the literature and all that.

I'm hoping, man, that you can kind of see why it might ignite such strong emotions to come into what could be seen as "queer space", that is, our space, and just say "I'm gonna try to be respectful, but I think you're all wrong. Argue with me, prove me wrong. EDUCATE ME!". Might not be what you meant, but that's definitely how it gets percieved. That having been said, I'm a little surprised because usually, if there's a place to go for people to do just that, it would be here. Might be because the Ride is done, and people are tired, and need a break from being patient, but...you certainly lit a fire.


As for me, justifying myself to you, I just ask you this: do I, or do I not have religious freedom in this country? If religious sin is the only thing you got against Homosexuality, I personally don't identify as Christian and should in NO WAY be bound by yours (or anyone else's) conception of what offends God. It should only come down to what harms other living creatures (and neither shiny happy monogamous gay marriages nor big queer group sex situations do that). I'm not saying all or most gay people aren't all about the monogamy, but it does bother me that in an effort to "clean up the image", we try to counter-stereotype and pretend that those other people don't exist. Or that if they do exist, they're somehow less deserving of all the same rights as everyone else.
and, ::endrant::

[ladyinred]

manutd, here's the deal. too often biblical scriptures are used against gay people to discriminate against them, to dehumanize them and to deny them their basic rights. What.. would happen if the same biblical scriptures were used to discriminate against people who divorced, didn't observe the sabbath, ate pork, wore fiber blends and so on? Perhaps you see why we get so sick of hearing it. Sin is not being used against heterosexuals to discriminate against them is it? They can still have families, remarry,go to church,hold jobs, and don't have legislation aimed at them to take away their rights.. Their "sins" are overlooked and aren't seen as a justification to discriminate against them. So why the double standard toward gays? Ok, see what I mean? If sin is a means of legislating and justifying discrimination , then shouldn't it logically pertain to all things perceived as sin,even yours or john doe who decided to divorce his wife? ( I'm not saying this is what I agree with , but pointing out the ludicrous notions people seem to have to justify discrimination toward people)

[u-dog]

Well you could ask me what Bible verses I use to back up that homosexuality is a sin. That might be a little bit better.

There are only a handful of them and I have heard them all before (I have been engaged in this "dialogue" since well before you were born ... since 1978). Which one do you think is the strongest and we'll start by dismantling that one.

But if you're saying that you can't use any bible verses to back up your beliefs, then how do you think it's right?

Gay is an essential and inherent part of who I am... who God created me to be so I don't need a Bible verse to tell me its right. I need a convincing Bible verse to tell me that I should sever a central part of Who I am.

[Alecto]

Well you could ask me what Bible verses I use to back up that homosexuality is a sin. That might be a little bit better.

But if you're saying that you can't use any bible verses to back up your beliefs, then how do you think it's right?

(once again people, if any of my posts sound rude, I don't mean for them to be, so please don't write up some angry reply to me. Just tell me why you think I'm wrong)

I think that what u-dog is (very patiently) trying to express is that...it's kind of like asking you

"What bible verses do you use to back up a belief that there aren't purple elephants walking the earth?"

It's not so much a positive belief, but just a lack of a belief. Most people here would probably say (again, I'm not Christian, and ANYONE feel free to jump in and correct me) that the Bible doesn't have much, if anything, to say at ALL about our modern understanding of homosexuality. As such, we can only look at the overall message of the spirit of the Bible (because the letter has zilch to tell us), and see that God is love. God should have no problem with love, then.

(Just a PS on my background, I do have some idea what I'm talking about because I was raised Catholic and spent enough years in Catholic school; Christianity's just not my thing anymore).

[manutd2090]

manutd, here's the deal. too often biblical scriptures are used against gay people to discriminate against them, to dehumanize them and to deny them their basic rights. What.. would happen if the same biblical scriptures were used to discriminate against people who divorced, didn't observe the sabbath, ate pork, wore fiber blends and so on? Perhaps you see why we get so sick of hearing it. Sin is not being used against heterosexuals to discriminate against them is it? They can still have families, remarry,go to church,hold jobs, and don't have legislation aimed at them to take away their rights.. Ok, see what I mean?

When you put it that way, yes, I do see what you mean. I would never discriminate against gay people, heck, I have two gay friends and I treat them just as I treat all my other friends. The reason I treat them the same is because I also have friends who have sex before marriage, and friends destroy their bodies with drugs. No matter what sin you commit, you shouldn't be discriminated for it. Everyone is a sinner.

[manutd2090]

just so everyone is aware, I'm done on this forum for tonight, and seeing as I have a very busy week coming up, I probably won't get a chance to get to my computer. So don't think I'm just abandoning this talk. I'll do my best to get on the computer to check out the thread.

[Freespirited]

You guys and gals are amazing! I love each and everyone's opinions
about homosexuality not being a sin! I for one have no need to
justify myself because I know God loves me just the way I am,
so I don't really need to challenge anyone's opinions; to each its
own!!


But the questions of wether being gay is a sin or not is technically
consider anti-gay, and could well be going against the rules of
conduct of those who agree to it when they created a profile.


Luckly it seems most of the members of this forum are very tolerant,
mature minded, and even welcomes differences of opinions for the
sake of mutual understanding and freedom of speech! which compare
to other religiously based gay website SOULFORCE have proven to be
far superior in tolerance then most.


Thus I am proud to be a part of this forum that is brave enough to
allow some of its members to bend the rules of which they agree
to adhere to. That in essence saids a great deal about the great
quality of people this forum is made of.



LEANDRO

[u-dog]

Waiting with baited breath! Good luck on whatever is keeping you busy! (exams?)

[nmwolfboy]

Please... these folks can be a bit jumpy, but they loose their harshness with time.

Speak for youself, Austin :)
i tend to get more harsh with time. :lol:

During the time i've participated on the Soulforce forums, it seems we get at least one newbie per week, saying they're seeking dialogue, but spewing offensive statements. Some appear to do so out of ignorance - they don't realize what they're saying is hurtful. However, it seems that every so often it becomes obvious that the offending newbie is being duplicitous; they are looking to be disruptive and upset other participants. Typically i've seen this particular type of newbie state repeatedly that they are looking for 'dialogue' and that they have no intention of offending or hurting people. The difference between the two types of newbies always becomes apparent pretty quickly.

My participation here has led me to rethink how i understand dialogue. I've not really reached any conclusions, i've only developed more & more questions.

Is dialogue really possible when someone states up front that they have unalterable beliefs that seem to imply they have tacit permission to devalue my experience and perceptions from the start?

Bearing the principles of Soulforce's non-violent resistance in mind, isn't it completely appropriate to challenge the statements of someone who says that the way i love is a sin?

i certainly don't feel any need to justify my existence as a gay Christian. It's enough for me that God accepts me and is present in my life. God is present in my relationship with my same-gender partner. People can choose to believe that or not - it doesn't change the truth of my life. :weee: It does however seem incumbent upon someone who refuses to see or understand the blessings of God in my life to justify why they think God's grace is limited with respect to me. Isn't that also in keeping with SF's principles of non-violent resistance?

For people who are truly willing to accept that God is bigger than their preconceptions (hopefully on my good days that includes me!) :) and given that we each have different understandings of God, religion, sexuality, etc., what is it that we're seeking to create here together? The best answer i can come up with for myself is that i'm trying to help co-create a forum where i can grow in understanding about the thinking of people who oppose the way i love. How does God work through them?

Pax :dove:

scott

[manutd2090]

no actually my week is full of performances for the musical that's been taking up my life for the past couple of months.

just so you're all aware, I am only in high school. but it's conversations like these that I love. Just because I'm younger don't think of me as someone who can't have a serious talk. thanks! :)

[Zerbie]

As I said before I'm not trying to argue or get anyone angry. I just want to hear how you guys justify yourselves. That's all.

.

I'm breaking one of my own cardinal rules, which is always to read the thread in its entirely before posting any response. But I've just completed a graduate term paper, I'm tired, and I coasted unprepared onto this discussion, saw about maybe 3 of the posts from the beginning, and now have something to interject: La.

This may have been said already, but even if it has, then consider my statement supplemental:

WHY on earth should people be asked to "justify themselves"??

Do you mean to propose that anyone who is gay and does not believe his/her being is "sin" owes a justification for their existence? :'(

Have you thought about the implications of this demand?

Dear Visitor,
Gay people are a part of this world. They are a part of nature itself and have been for millenia. They owe NO ONE justification. They Belong Here. :dove: They are very much loved and it will not do to demand justification for their existence.

[Zerbie]

no actually my week is full of performances for the musical that's been taking up my life for the past couple of months.

just so you're all aware, I am only in high school. but it's conversations like these that I love. Just because I'm younger don't think of me as someone who can't have a serious talk. thanks! :)

Well on a less combative note then, what musical are you doing?? I'm a performer, most of my friends are as well, and was just at a performance of Candide earlier today.
:)

[u-dog]

We take people your age very seriously and have grown enormously from their contributions. With any luck we will grow from our association with you too. and you from us perhaps.

So a musical eh? hmmmmm.... Not a closet case are you? ;)


:eek: The above comment was a totally inappropriate joke and the poster OUGHT to be ashamed of himself!

[manutd2090]

I'm breaking one of my own cardinal rules, which is always to read the thread in its entirely before posting any response. But I've just completed a graduate term paper, I'm tired, and I coasted unprepared onto this discussion, saw about maybe 3 of the posts from the beginning, and now have something to interject: La.

This may have been said already, but even if it has, then consider my statement supplemental:

WHY on earth should people be asked to "justify themselves"??

Do you mean to propose that anyone who is gay and does not believe his/her being is "sin" owes a justification for their existence?

Have you thought about the implications of this demand?

Dear Visitor,
Gay people are a part of this world. They are a part of nature itself and have been for millenia. They owe NO ONE justification. They Belong Here. They are very much loved and it will not do to demand justification for their existence

Here I am after saying I'm leaving, but I just can't resist. You're right you shouldn't have to justify yourself. Something I've learned after I started the thread. horray! you've changed my opinion. congrats. Anyways I just want opinions from people telling me about their experiences and how their life goes being a gay Christian. I love hearing stories from other people, so don't hesitate to inform me by telling me something you've personally experienced.

[manutd2090]

So a musical eh? hmmmmm.... Not a closet case are you?

lol! hmm probably not. :) just an actor :p

[tpdncr4christ]

And Austin, for the record. Don't ever apologize for me.

There was nothing I said that you needed to apologize for.

Kara, may I ask you not to assume I am referring to you? Because I'm not. At least, not in this thread.

Manutide2090 has expressed an unpopular and insulting opinion and we have heard it. Perhaps we need not hear it again? If Manutide2090 would now like to ask us about our experiences or our understanding of the relevant biblical texts (other than asking us to "justify ourselves" of course) he could do so in a respectful and caring way.

What is wrong with justifying yourself? I am the only person who didn't take offense to that? I have no problem telling anyone that I am gay and I am loved.

Personally, I don't see my statements as sarcastic, but logical. Since someone wants to point out to us why homosexuality is a sin, why not examine biblical verses that pertain to them on adultery and divorce and ask them questions about their stand on biblical scripture.

One man's logic is another man's sarcasm. I've never understood answering questions with questions. Why can't we just give him an answer. He asked what verses do we use to support the belief that homosexuality isn't a sin, and we never gave them to him. There are two verses I know of that are gay friendly, Mathew 8:5-13 and Mathew 19:1-12. In chapter 8 Jesus heals the male servant, the Hebrew word used here is pias, or male sex slave. In 19 the Pharisees ask Jesus about divorce, and Jesus condemns it (who'd a thunk it?) and goes on to say about marriage in verse 11 that "...Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given." Those passages, I believe, answer his question directly.

[u-dog]

Here I am after saying I'm leaving, but I just can't resist. You're right you shouldn't have to justify yourself. Something I've learned after I started the thread. horray! you've changed my opinion. congrats. Anyways I just want opinions from people telling me about their experiences and how their life goes being a gay Christian. I love hearing stories from other people, so don't hesitate to inform me by telling me something you've personally experienced.

":sing: ...The Rain in Spain stays mainly in the ....":sing: Sorry... wrong musical.

NOW THIS IS A STATEMENT WE CAN WORK WITH !!! THANKS MAN!:) :) :)

[tpdncr4christ]

lol! hmm probably not. :) just an actor :p

ME TOO!

We have a lot in common... uh oh... maybe we could actually be... friends?!?

I am currently in the musical at my high school this week as well. I love acting, its probably the only reason I go to school anymore.

As for asking me, feel free to PM me whenever. I'd be happy to talk about all these wise old folks behind their backs, I mean, umm... I love you all!:love: :love: :love: Don't eat me...:pray:

[manutd2090]

haha sweet deal. what musical you doing? I've gotten myself in the "Music Man" not my favorite musical ever but it's not so bad

[u-dog]

What is wrong with justifying yourself? I am the only person who didn't take offense to that? I have no problem telling anyone that I am gay and I am loved.

You'll understand when you're ... NO! NO! :headbang: :headbang: I WON"T SAY IT !!! ;) :x


Austin, If you are comfortable with the request, GO FOR IT. You may be the one among us who can make headway.

[manutd2090]

What is wrong with justifying yourself? I am the only person who didn't take offense to that? I have no problem telling anyone that I am gay and I am loved.

You'll understand when you're ... NO! NO! I WON"T SAY IT !!!


Austin, If you are comfortable with the request, GO FOR IT. You may be the one among us who can make headway.

I can see why people would be insulted when asked to justify themself. I can only imagine what you guys have been through and I suppose that someone asking you all the time to justify yourself may get a little, well annoying. So I apologize, I came into this thread with not the greatest attitude.

[Zerbie]

haha sweet deal. what musical you doing? I've gotten myself in the "Music Man" not my favorite musical ever but it's not so bad

The Music Man!! :lol: Omigosh, one of the first musicals I ever did when I was small! (I auditioned for Amaryllis but I came across too much older than my real age to play the part, so I was just some random kid in the chorus.) I will always love the Music Man because of that production! :D

What part are ya' doin'?

BTW - on the original topic, I'm happy to hear that something we've said "clicked." :) Welcome to our cyber-space. I have conservative Christian buddies who I do shows with and stuff, too. No one asks anyone to justify themselves - we just hang out, do our work, treat each other with kindness and caring. It's kind of like heaven on earth when everyone gets along.

[tpdncr4christ]

You'll understand when you're ... NO! NO! :headbang: :headbang: I WON"T SAY IT !!! ;) :x


Austin, If you are comfortable with the request, GO FOR IT. You may be the one among us who can make headway.

I'll understand when I'm... hairier? Stronger? Fatter? Thinner? :confused: Gosh... I don't have any idea what you could be implying Grandpa Dave. ;) :rolleyes:

haha sweet deal. what musical you doing? I've gotten myself in the "Music Man" not my favorite musical ever but it's not so bad

We're doing Thoroughly Modern Milly. I'm dance captain! Yay me! And now that I've had my big headed arrogant moment for this hour, we can all move on with our lives. Music Man must be fun... I mean, who doesn't like dance librarians and two timing music teachers?

[u-dog]

I can see why people would be insulted when asked to justify themself. I can only imagine what you guys have been through and I suppose that someone asking you all the time to justify yourself may get a little, well annoying. So I apologize, I came into this thread with not the greatest attitude.

I knew there had to be a reason I kept on with this thread instead of going to bed. You're a good man, man. Now I'm going to bed.

Dave


PS Don't believe ANYTHING that that Whippersnapper Austin tells you about us. IT S LIES! ALL LIES I TELL YOU!!

[manutd2090]

The Music Man!! Omigosh, one of the first musicals I ever did when I was small! (I auditioned for Amaryllis but I came across too much older than my real age to play the part, so I was just some random kid in the chorus.) I will always love the Music Man because of that production!

ahh dare I say...I'm....Marcellus. I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I took the part. But it's been a lot of fun, this is actually my first production I've ever been in. I've been in drama for a while but I'm always so busy I can't audition for stuff.

[Zerbie]

We're doing Thoroughly Modern Milly. I'm dance captain! Yay me! And now that I've had my big headed arrogant moment for this hour, we can all move on with our lives. Music Man must be fun... I mean, who doesn't like dance librarians and two timing music teachers?

Way to go Austin!!!!! :D :applause:

God, I love theater people!!!! :D :D :D

[manutd2090]

Practically 20 minutes ago I said I had to go, but here I am. I like talking with you guys, what can I say. Anyways I really do have to leave now, so I wish you all the best for now.

-Kevin

[tpdncr4christ]

Four for you Glenn Coco, you go Glenn Coco you go!

And none for Gretchen Weiners

Sorry... I tend to quote Mean Girls when I hear someone say they need to go...

Zerbie, aren't theater people just amazing? I love them too.

[Daniel]

Alright let me address the "justify yourselves" expression. Looking back on it, probably not the best phrase to use, I'll admit. You guys probably get that a lot and are sick of it. My apologies. .

Thank you. Your words are much appreciated.

[andrewlittle]

Mostly because I couldn't answer the first question.

I have noticed something, however, that I would like to point out - to all parties involved.

Do you "old-timers" remember frankandcathy? Seems to me Cathy came in with about as much knowledge of how to dialogue constructively with GLBT folks as man did (this is not criticism, man - ooh, I just realized your name is Kevin). Her original question really caused some sparks to fly, didn't it?

And yet, over time we grew to love and respect her (not without the occasional bump in the road, of course), and it was reciprocated. In the process of engagement, Cathy adjusted her phrasing and approaches, and indeed the nature of her questions, as a result of learning what triggers GLBT people have developed from lives being in lived in estrangement and denigration.

Cathy showed a curiosity that was not meant to hurt, but to know. That is sometimes the most important aspect of life - to know and be known.

I have already seen Kevin adjust his approach and acknowledge a little more understanding. Can we do the same? While I fall short of apologizing for some of the reactions, which would be quite arrogant for me to do since I wasn't directly affected by the initial question, I am as curious about Kevin as he is about GLBT. If we can help each other reframe questions, perhaps we can come to some constructive dialogue - and perhaps not.

I, for one, am very happy that Kevin has shared a little something about himself that gives me glimpses into the person behind the name. Yeah, they're just words, but they convey images anyway.

So, anyway, what do think? Is manutd2090 this season's frankandcathy?

And, Kevin, if I may ask - manutd - Manchester United? Just curious.

Andy

[manutd2090]

Mostly because I couldn't answer the first question.

I have noticed something, however, that I would like to point out - to all parties involved.

Do you "old-timers" remember frankandcathy? Seems to me Cathy came in with about as much knowledge of how to dialogue constructively with GLBT folks as man did (this is not criticism, man - ooh, I just realized your name is Kevin). Her original question really caused some sparks to fly, didn't it?

And yet, over time we grew to love and respect her (not without the occasional bump in the road, of course), and it was reciprocated. In the process of engagement, Cathy adjusted her phrasing and approaches, and indeed the nature of her questions, as a result of learning what triggers GLBT people have developed from lives being in lived in estrangement and denigration.

Cathy showed a curiosity that was not meant to hurt, but to know. That is sometimes the most important aspect of life - to know and be known.

I have already seen Kevin adjust his approach and acknowledge a little more understanding. Can we do the same? While I fall short of apologizing for everyone, which would be quite arrogant for me to do, I am as curious about Kevin as he is about GLBT. If we can help each other reframe questions, perhaps we can come to some constructive dialogue - and perhaps not.

I, for one, am very happy that Kevin has shared a little something about himself that gives me glimpses into the person behind the name. Yeah, they're just words, but they convey images anyway.

So, anyway, what do think? Is manutd2090 this season's frankandcathy?

And, Kevin, if I may ask - manutd - Manchester United? Just curious.

Thanks for understanding that I didn't start the thread to start insulting anyone, but to learn about them and hear them out. I still say that I stand by my original beliefs, but I understand where you guys come from A LOT more.

P.S. call me whatever you'd like, the name's Kevin though. and yes manutd is Manchester United. I'm just a soccer freak. :D

[ladyinred]

Hey I think it is pretty remarkable that he shared something about himself .Being young he is probably impressionable having heard alot of negativity about LGBT people. I think yes, he is willing to dialogue and we can learn something about him too.Plus it is neat when you actually share something in common with people, like being interested in acting.And it did seem to open the door to friendlier conversation didn't it.

[kara speltz]

Here I am after saying I'm leaving, but I just can't resist. You're right you shouldn't have to justify yourself. Something I've learned after I started the thread. horray! you've changed my opinion. congrats. Anyways I just want opinions from people telling me about their experiences and how their life goes being a gay Christian. I love hearing stories from other people, so don't hesitate to inform me by telling me something you've personally experienced.

Dear Kevin: Thank you for that acknowledgement. And thanks for sharing something about yourself. It makes a world of difference. I'm glad you've hung in there. And I promise you'll hear some pretty amazing stories over the time here.

Just a quickie history of me. I'm almost 70; came out when I was 38 after being married. I have a son, and two wonderful grand children. I returned to the Catholic Church some 20 years ago, after finding a wonderfully inclusive parish where all are welcome to the table. I'm very active there as well as very active in the peace movement for over 40 years. I've traveled twice to Iraq because I felt that was what God was calling me to. My relationship with God is stronger, because I am a lesbian. My oppression makes me aware of my dependence on God.

Ok, that's a quickie from me. kara

[Freespirited]

I can see why people would be insulted when asked to justify themself. I can only imagine what you guys have been through and I suppose that someone asking you all the time to justify yourself may get a little, well annoying. So I apologize, I came into this thread with not the greatest attitude.


There is no reason for you to even justify as to why you don't
understand what is being gay or wether for you it is a sin! but
if I am willing to accept your views (and god knows I am not just
agreeing with you to sound neutral) simply because I respect the
fact that you are not gay; then why is it so difficult for so many heterosexuals to accept us as we are!?


I had always accepted and loved my two straight parents even
the times I didn't agree with their views, or better yet I even
accepted the fact they had the right to not accept my
homosexuality when they didn't, and yet I have never thought
any less of them, distanced myself from them, or even stopped
loving them at the worse or best of times!


LEANDRO

[keltic63]

Mostly because I couldn't answer the first question.

I have noticed something, however, that I would like to point out - to all parties involved.

Do you "old-timers" remember frankandcathy? Seems to me Cathy came in with about as much knowledge of how to dialogue constructively with GLBT folks as man did (this is not criticism, man - ooh, I just realized your name is Kevin). Her original question really caused some sparks to fly, didn't it?

And yet, over time we grew to love and respect her (not without the occasional bump in the road, of course), and it was reciprocated. In the process of engagement, Cathy adjusted her phrasing and approaches, and indeed the nature of her questions, as a result of learning what triggers GLBT people have developed from lives being in lived in estrangement and denigration.

Cathy showed a curiosity that was not meant to hurt, but to know. That is sometimes the most important aspect of life - to know and be known.

<snip>

So, anyway, what do think? Is manutd2090 this season's frankandcathy?

And, Kevin, if I may ask - manutd - Manchester United? Just curious.

Andy

Might I suggest "context"? We like to talk about context when we're discussing the Biblical scriptures and how we apply their meanings and relevance to us. How about we look at what happened in this thread, especially the negative response at the beginning, in terms of context?

We have just gone through about 6 weeks of the Equality Ride, where we watched young people, students we have come to think of as our own, do some courageous things, and get arrested. Their actions have brought many new members to our forums, and these new members have not always been friendly voices:
P-Kay
Skeptictank
Why-Lord-Why
simpleman
DrizzT
Recall that JacoBison's arrival here was a rocky start as well.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, however, seeing this in the context of our very recent history, it offers an explanation.

I have spoken to a few friends here in pm's about my fatigue. I had planned to take Thursday off from moderating duties, and I did. I was gone from the forums for more than 24 hours. However, before I left, I spoke out, quickly and harshly, toward one of these new members. With that post, I realized I needed to take a break.

A month from now, a new frankandcathy, or Kevin, or Blossom will show up. I'm sure our response will be different, not only because of time, but also because of what we've learned here.

Peace (breathe it in; speak it out)

[tdogg]

Hi Kevin, welcome to the forums. You've had a pretty interesting welcome, it looks like.

Think you've figured out by now, most of us don't feel the need to justify ourselves to another person. In fact, we feel quite strongly about that. Many/most/all of us feel quite strongly that the Bible doesn't condemn us at all, for being who we were created to be. It's no different than any other physical, mental or emotional trait we were born with - much like the color of your eyes or hair, your height, your IQ. It sounds like you get that we don't believe in a God who would create us and then condemn us to hell strictly for that which he created - it just does not make sense, especially considering the love that Jesus taught.

And you seem to have figured out that there are no Bible verses that specifically approve of so many things - driving a car for instance, or attending high school, eating chocolate cake, working for state service - I could go on and on but I believe you see that point clearly. I do have a Bible verse for you, that proves to me that my God created me and loves me just as he created me - God tells me that I am wonderfully and fearfully made - wow, God MUST love me just as I am!! What a wonderful incredible thing to know! God loves you just as you were created too! Isn't that amazing?!

Kevin, please take some time and really read through the threads and posts on this forum - you will find our stories, experiences, opinions and even perhaps some of those justifications you sought earlier. It will be well-worth your time. And see, you've already found some common threads with some of us here on the forum. Musicals, acting - our lives are much like yours. I hope you enjoy your stay here at SF, and get to know everyone a little better. And thanks for sharing some about yourself too.

And to my soulforce friends here, your posts made me smile, think and appreciate all of you. I love the passion, compassion, conviction and straight foward talking. That's why I love it here so much. :love: :love:

[andrewlittle]

At the risk of getting lovingly jumped on, because I am claiming to be an outsider (which I'm not, BTW - just qualifying my answer), I would like to tell you why I don't think, as an ally, that GLBT are sinners because of sexuality. (My, that was a long, awkward sentence.)

I am a minister, and a Biblical language scholar of ill-repute. I am not in the majority camp, even among liberals, because I tend to take the Bible very seriously and believe every effort should be made to understand what it really says - as opposed to what I have been taught that it says.

First, all supposed Biblical prohibitions are really built on Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. There several posts dealing with this, but let me lead you towards the most recent one:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2860

Also, The Sodom story, as has been addressed in numerous threads also, is (according to virtually all of the other Biblical passages dealing with Sodom) erroneously associated with homosexual activity, and more correctly deals with abuse of power and violent inhospitality (not just not welcoming, but stingy, self-righteous, greedy, abusive inhospitality).

Anyway, we can get into more of the Bible passages, if you interested, but my bottom line is that I don't believe the Bible labels same-sex relations a sin. Sexual indiscretions - yes. Adultery - yes. All anner of other things that we all share amongst us - yes. But, GLBT - no.

I also cannot justify condemning out-of-wedlock or non-committed sexual relations between people of the same sex as sinful, since the laws of the land do not provide for being "in-wedlock" or generally recognize committed GLBT relationships. I actually consider laws against lawful recognition of GLBT relationships as sinful, since they force GLBT folk to either live in a manner that religious circles call sin or to live in a way that would deny their very creation in the image of God.

As far as GLBT being sinners, I absolutely agree. But only to the same extent, and for exactly the same reasons, as us hetero folk. For myself, I find that about the time I start thinking I have the "love God and love your neighbor as yourself" thing down, I start to get proud and self-righteous - and then I'm sinning in the next most common way the Bible talks about. So I just assume that I am on a pilgrimage towards God along with all other people, and the Holy Spirit guides and supports me along the way.

[nmwolfboy]

A month from now, a new frankandcathy, or Kevin, or Blossom will show up. I'm sure our response will be different, not only because of time, but also because of what we've learned here.

Peace (breathe it in; speak it out)

Amen, brother! :agree: :cookie: :flower: :)

-s

[nmwolfboy]

I also cannot justify condemning out-of-wedlock or non-committed sexual relations between people of the same sex as sinful, since the laws of the land do not provide for being "in-wedlock" or generally recognize committed GLBT relationships. I actually consider laws against lawful recognition of GLBT relationships as sinful, since they force GLBT folk to either live in a manner that religious circles call sin or to live in a way that would deny their very creation in the image of God.


Shucks, Andy, i just love reading your posts. :love: :agree:

Last week at a forum with our Bishop, a new parishioner (who happens to be gay and also a priest) quoted an old Hebrew saying (or possibly a saying from an early Greek church father - there was some dispute about attribution):
Before every person precedes a host of 10,000 angels crying "Make way! Make way for the image of God!"
i was glad that someone had the cojones to point out to our Bishop that glbt folk share in the angels' proclamations. :weee:

Pax :dove:

scott

[andrewlittle]

Might I suggest "context"? ... We have just gone through about 6 weeks of the Equality Ride, where we watched young people, students we have come to think of as our own, do some courageous things, and get arrested. Their actions have brought many new members to our forums, and these new members have not always been friendly voices ... I'm not offering this as an excuse, however, seeing this in the context of our very recent history, it offers an explanation.

I have spoken to a few friends here in pm's about my fatigue. I had planned to take Thursday off from moderating duties, and I did. I was gone from the forums for more than 24 hours. However, before I left, I spoke out, quickly and harshly, toward one of these new members. With that post, I realized I needed to take a break.

A month from now, a new frankandcathy, or Kevin, or Blossom will show up. I'm sure our response will be different, not only because of time, but also because of what we've learned here.

Peace (breathe it in; speak it out)

Ah! A life lived learning. To me that's heaven - as long as we take care of ourselves along the way. I am glad you took a break, since you thought it necessary.

Since your verbal altercation happened in PM, I wasn't privy to it - as indeed was no-one else. As far as I've seen - you've handled the fresh flood of visitors quite well.

How about a round of appreciation for ALL our moderators during the last few weeks, folks. What do you think?

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Hey, don't look at me like that. If a little sucking up helps someone else feel better about themselves, who am I to withhold it? Don't listen to them, Steve. They don't know s**t.

P.S. That day off - you ought to do that more often - it's good for your soul and your love life. ;)

[BrentRichards]

Wow, this will teach me to take a weekend off!

[rustaman]

Might I suggest "context"? We like to talk about context when we're discussing the Biblical scriptures and how we apply their meanings and relevance to us. How about we look at what happened in this thread, especially the negative response at the beginning, in terms of context?

We have just gone through about 6 weeks of the Equality Ride, where we watched young people, students we have come to think of as our own, do some courageous things, and get arrested. Their actions have brought many new members to our forums, and these new members have not always been friendly voices:
P-Kay
Skeptictank
Why-Lord-Why
simpleman
DrizzT
Recall that JacoBison's arrival here was a rocky start as well.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, however, seeing this in the context of our very recent history, it offers an explanation.

I have spoken to a few friends here in pm's about my fatigue. I had planned to take Thursday off from moderating duties, and I did. I was gone from the forums for more than 24 hours. However, before I left, I spoke out, quickly and harshly, toward one of these new members. With that post, I realized I needed to take a break.

A month from now, a new frankandcathy, or Kevin, or Blossom will show up. I'm sure our response will be different, not only because of time, but also because of what we've learned here.

Peace (breathe it in; speak it out)

I think we must take a lesson from our exceptional, courageous, peacemaking Equality Riders. They have presented themselves over and over, not anonymously but in person, to fundalmentalist Christian institutions for the second year in a row to attempt face to face dialogue. What do you think would have happened if everytime someone brought up homosexuality is a sin/justify yourselves, the Equality Riders reacted with anger, and put downs? Their credibility would have been totally shot.

When some of the individuals from these same institutions come to this forum with their questions, comments, and yes, their prejudices, it behooves us to treat them with respect. This is Soulforce. It exists as a way to practice stating, and teaching others our truth in a loving, non-violent, non-attacking way. In being part of this, we are called to be bigger than our anger, our fear, and our own prejudices. It ain't easy, but from my perspective it's way worth it.

If manutd2090, aka Kevin, or anyone else comes to us with questions and assumptions, let's teach them. We need to take every opportunity to put our truth out there in a way that people can hear it. If any of these people are really not interested in hearing what we have to say, that will become evident. Let's just not start at that place.

I just want to say thank you to the peacemakers and the teachers. You surely walk in the steps of the Master.

[keltic63]

I think we must take a lesson from our exceptional, courageous, peacemaking Equality Riders. They have presented themselves over and over, not anonymously but in person, to fundalmentalist Christian institutions for the second year in a row to attempt face to face dialogue. What do you think would have happened if everytime someone brought up homosexuality is a sin/justify yourselves, the Equality Riders reacted with anger, and put downs? Their credibility would have been totally shot.

When some of the individuals from these same institutions come to this forum with their questions, comments, and yes, their prejudices, it behooves us to treat them with respect. This is Soulforce. It exists as a way to practice stating, and teaching others our truth in a loving, non-violent, non-attacking way. In being part of this, we are called to be bigger than our anger, our fear, and our own prejudices. It ain't easy, but from my perspective it's way worth it.

If manutd2090, aka Kevin, or anyone else comes to us with questions and assumptions, let's teach them. We need to take every opportunity to put our truth out there in a way that people can hear it. If any of these people are really not interested in hearing what we have to say, that will become evident. Let's just not start at that place.

I just want to say thank you to the peacemakers and the teachers. You surely walk in the steps of the Master.


Russ, it's not easy doing this kind of work, whether in person, or online. If you look at the beginning of most of the threads that got heated, our members did a pretty good job of remaining cool and trying to engage in dialogue.

I offered my post as an observation, a contextual way of viewing the events, and perhaps discovering why things went they way they did. It is not an excuse.

I'm proud of our members here. Many of the members who engaged in the dialogue have hundreds, if not thousands of posts here. as moderator, I know who I can depend on when it comes to engaging those voices who disagree with us, and do it in a very positive, open way. So in the past week, some of us lost sight of the ideals. I guarantee you, the members who lost their cools, including myself, most likely did so because of fatigue. We grew weary of the same arguments. we grew weary of yet another new member coming to attack, and let's be clear about this, it's been 6 weeks of the ER, and 6 weeks of confronting similar posts.

We need to also remember that the Equality Riders attended training, intensive training. I'm sure they felt like they could have gone off on the people they met, but the situation was a bit different. They were face to face with new people at each college. So, our members were here in the forums, with little or no training, save that which we picked up on our own, and we were confronted with the same voices, often for days on end.

Russ, we're not perfect, but I think we did a great job here.

[Emproph]

God tells me that I am wonderfully and fearfully made - wow, God MUST love me just as I am!! What a wonderful incredible thing to know! God loves you just as you were created too! Isn't that amazing?!

I don't know why I keep forgetting that because I know it's REALLY TRUE


It's so simple.

[tdogg]

Keltic (and the other moderators, Jamie, ??)

I've never said thank you for all that you do here. I know it is time consuming, eye straining and yes sometimes brainstraining. And of course there is the emotional aspect. It's a very tough job and that's why few offer to fill the position. I really appreciate all that you do. Without you, this wouldn't be a safe and welcoming place where we can discuss ideas, issues and experiences. Thank you for that. Thank you for making the SF forums such a wonderful place to be.

THANKS!! :love: :love: :love:

[rustaman]

Russ, it's not easy doing this kind of work, whether in person, or online. If you look at the beginning of most of the threads that got heated, our members did a pretty good job of remaining cool and trying to engage in dialogue.

I offered my post as an observation, a contextual way of viewing the events, and perhaps discovering why things went they way they did. It is not an excuse.

I'm proud of our members here. Many of the members who engaged in the dialogue have hundreds, if not thousands of posts here. as moderator, I know who I can depend on when it comes to engaging those voices who disagree with us, and do it in a very positive, open way. So in the past week, some of us lost sight of the ideals. I guarantee you, the members who lost their cools, including myself, most likely did so because of fatigue. We grew weary of the same arguments. we grew weary of yet another new member coming to attack, and let's be clear about this, it's been 6 weeks of the ER, and 6 weeks of confronting similar posts.

We need to also remember that the Equality Riders attended training, intensive training. I'm sure they felt like they could have gone off on the people they met, but the situation was a bit different. They were face to face with new people at each college. So, our members were here in the forums, with little or no training, save that which we picked up on our own, and we were confronted with the same voices, often for days on end.

Russ, we're not perfect, but I think we did a great job here.

Keltic, I absolutely agree with you, and please forgive me if my post came across as critical – that was not my intention. Actually, I am amazed every time I visit here at what is happening, and the soul of this forum. The conversations that happen here are remarkable. And I am sure that revisiting the same issues over and over can get frustrating.

I for one know about not being perfect. I am currently doing 21 days of no complaining, no criticizing, no judging. Sometimes there is a fine line between what is and what is not, and sometimes the message just plain misses the mark. This has been so much more difficult than I thought it would be. Since starting this in the middle of March I have blown it repeatedly, and have had to start over again and again. Today marks 14 consecutive days. The struggle with this has been worth it. It has caused me to call forth the best in myself, and it has helped me look for the positive intention in others. It has also challenged me to offer feedback in a constructive way that can actually be heard. Every situation has within it an opportunity for learning and growth. And I have found so many opportunities!

So please allow me to express my gratitude for all the good works that happen here - and especially to you Keltic, and the other moderators, for your ongoing willingness to put yourself on the line online. You folks are great.

[ladyinred]

Actually Keltic, this forum does a great job. And yes the same ol' does get a bit weary after a while. I've been on forums where I can tell you what mean and nasty is. All I can say is people here are far from it. of course in the past if people peed me off I could chew them up and spit them out(Not saying I was nice) but if they got ugly I basically gave it back to them 100 times. No, I'm not that way anymore..It's not the best way to communicate, or to influence people..and you don't exactly win friends either.