Some help needed

[gman620]

Ok everyone, I’d like to explain my situation. I was born and raised Catholic and dedicated to my faith. I came out as gay about 2 years ago. At first, I integrated my sexuality and faith well, believing that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. One day a few months ago I saw a fundamentalist argument that the Bible in fact does. The problem is that both arguments are equally convincing to me, so it’s basically tearing me apart.

This link shows a bunch of articles that attempt to rebut pro-gay theology, and I am distressed because they do such a good job at it. I’d appreciate it if someone could read some of these articles and tell me what you think. I'd like to know if you think these arguments against pro-gay interpretations of the Bible are valid. Here's the link

http://www.leaderu.com/focus/gaytheology.html

I am in deep distress over this, so any help would be appreciated.

[Zerbie]

Hi Gman,

I am so sorry to read of your distress. I am also quite certain that some of this forum's many Bible-educated members will be posting replies to you in the coming days. Being poorly informed on Biblical matters myself, I won't attempt to address the conflict directly - I know someone else will.

My own take on things is to go as directly to the source as possible. To me that means taking my concerns and questions directly to the Lord Himself. :pray: If it appeals to you, I suggest that you pray, contemplate, and meditate, allowing yourself to become receptive to what the spirit has to teach you directly. Human argument can be endless. Especially this argument.

Remember, whatever questions or concerns you have right now, that you are infinitely loved. Whatever you feel, whoever you are, whatever you do, God loves you infinitely and without condition.

I am sure you will receive the type of response you asked for from some of the others soon.

Meanwhile, hugs.
:love: :love: :love:

[u-dog]

Underdog! and more importantly... Uncle Andy! He is our main Bible guy. Uncle Andy isn't on right now and I am off to bed! So Biblical exegesis will have to wait for tomorrow, but I will add you to my prayers tonight and look at the link you included tomorrow.

Short answer is: The Bible doesn't address the issue of committed gay relationships as we understand them today AT ALL. The Bible doesn't address homosexual orientation AT ALL. Jesus never spoke about it AT ALL.

Check out these sites: www.jesusmcc.org and www.wouldjesusdescriminate.org

Dave (sometimes referred to as "Grampa Dave" by certain rude young whippersnappers)

[Dash]

Dave (sometimes referred to as "Grampa Dave" by certain rude young whippersnappers)

I thought you said, "nude young whippersnappers". And I was like, "How did he know that I...

...I mean, um...

Here's my offering: www.religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org)

They have a great section on homosexuality.

:running:

[Emproph]

gman,

First of all, you can’t trust Leadership U. They’re one of the worst sites as far as accuracy or integrity goes.

That said, the page you linked to and the articles it linked to that I read were some of the fairer material I’ve seen on that site. Mainly because they avoided the “gays are perverts” routine and stuck with the Biblical arguments that exist.

However, much of the arguments were essentially, “The Bible says homosexuality is wrong, Period!”

Based on that approach, it’s important to notice the 99% that is not said.

They do not say that we should be put to death as in Leviticus 20:13. If their condemnation of homosexuality was truly Biblically literally based, they would be advocating this. They are not doing so, therefore they either believe that we should be put to death and are not saying so, or do not believe the Bible should be taken literally.

It’s not hard to see that their beliefs are not truly based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. Remarriage as defined by Jesus is adultery. Anyone divorced and remarried for reasons other than spousal infidelity or nonbelief would also be subject to death as per leviticus 20:10.

Do you want people who are remarried to be put to death? There are hundreds of examples of such absurdity when one considers taking the Bible literally.

They are selectively literal, and to be fair, I don’t think that’s avoidable. One cannot advocate the murder of one’s neighbor while claiming to be treating/loving them as one’s self. The deception I see here, as well as with most anti-gay organizations, is that they don’t want you to think about things like that. So they present the information as though everything else has already been decided and is in perfect harmony, giving the illusion that the Scriptural chaos and uncertainty that simultaneously runs rampant does not exist, simply because they don’t mention it.

In other words, Leadership U is just another political hack. If they really believed in the literal interpretation of the Bible, and were honest about it, they’d be shouting for the death of nearly every homosexual and remarried person in the United States.

Anyway, if you have any specific examples that particularly bother you I’d be happy to delve into this further. There’s just way too much material there to approach from any one angle.

Don’t be shy though, this is cake. Of what I did read, I didn't read anything new, and much of it was familiar. ;)

[rustaman]

Ok everyone, I’d like to explain my situation. I was born and raised Catholic and dedicated to my faith. I came out as gay about 2 years ago. At first, I integrated my sexuality and faith well, believing that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. One day a few months ago I saw a fundamentalist argument that the Bible in fact does. The problem is that both arguments are equally convincing to me, so it’s basically tearing me apart.

This link shows a bunch of articles that attempt to rebut pro-gay theology, and I am distressed because they do such a good job at it. I’d appreciate it if someone could read some of these articles and tell me what you think. I'd like to know if you think these arguments against pro-gay interpretations of the Bible are valid. Here's the link

http://www.leaderu.com/focus/gaytheology.html

I am in deep distress over this, so any help would be appreciated.

Hi gman-
I know exactly how you feel. Been there, done that. It hits right in the pit of your gut. I have been doing a lot of research the past 2 years. The bottom line is that what you are reading are the same old arguments based on the same old interpretations from the Religious Right. What is sad is that those of us who are sensitive to this can find ourselves seduced back into believing that God hates homosexuals. And I am here to tell you that it IS NOT TRUE.

Here are a few thoughts:
-The Religious Right does not own the Bible. They do not have a copyright on the way the Bible should be interpreted. Because they are able to use their interpretations to “prove” their case does make it True. (Incidentally, they accuse us of the same thing)
-Newer biblical scholarship and research indicates that the current translations of the Bible regarding homosexuality are INCORRECT. What is being talked about is idolatry and sexual practices involved in idol worship.
-Many of us are victims of what Rembert Truluck calls Bible abuse. I recommend his book, Steps To Recovery From Bible Abuse. Here is the most current website: http://www.otkenyer.hu/truluck/index.html
The book can be purchased through Chi Rho Press http://www.chirhopress.com/ (Shipping is a little pricey but worth it.) There are many other excellent books – more come out, as it were, every day. I cried all the way through Mel White’s book, Stranger at the Gate.
-Only you can decide what to believe about who God is for you. It is very personal. For me, I am loved unconditionally. I am created in the image and likeness of God. I am God’s perfect child. God does not make mistakes. I am the physical expression of God in this world. This is the vision and the prayer I hold for you. You are loved.

While doing some online research I came across this very sweet article written by Robert W. Alexander, a heterosexual pastor, foreign missionary, and father of 7 children.
http://www.zuberfowler.com/seeking.html

Another article that I was quite impressed with written by James B. Nelson, professor of Christian ethics at United Theological Seminary of the Twin Cities – in 1977 !!
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=430

You are asking the right questions. We all must dig deep to loosen the chains that bind us.

Namaste my friend.

[BrentRichards]

I've seen some of these articles before, some not specifically, but they usually come from pretty much the same angle. Here's a couple of general principles I've found they use to "rebut" the possibility of an affirming view of Scripture:

1. Both sides in this debate are often guilty of namecalling. We call them narrow-minded, they call us revisionists. Edit all this name-calling out. It's meaningless.

2. Evangelicals and (to a lesser degree) fundamentalists are perfectly willing to contextualize and use cultural understandings of scripture when it suits them (for example, with regard to the NT teaching on circumscision, women in leadership, conduct and dress in worship, and so on ...) but call foul when a similar principle is used to understand Scriptures appearing to condemn homosexuality. The context is critical! Evangelicals affirm that the three most important rules of understanding scripture are context, context, and context! It is both legitimate and essential to ask "What did the biblical authors mean when they refer to same-sex practices" ... according to the historical context, they almost certainly have to be seen as referring to pederasty, prostitution, and practices connected to idolatry and temple prostitution practices of surrounding religions. To generalize this to any and all homosexual relationships is irresponsible use of the Scriptures.

3. Some treat modern English translations as the final authority. They are not. The word "homosexual" (and related terms) never appeared in any translation prior to 1958. The word didn't exist in NT Greek or OT Hebrew. "They" accuse "us" of creatively retranslating Pauline passages to get rid of the homosexual reference, when in fact, a very modern retranslation PUT that word there in the first place.

4. Many of the arguments used by evangelical and fundamentalist believers (I am an evangelical myself, by the way, so I can criticize my own freely) sound very strong IF you start with the assumption that gay is wrong, and then use the passages to prove that. That's called "isogesis" ... basically reading INTO the text, rather than pulling OUT of the text what is actually there. Removing that assumption makes many of the arguments lose major steam all at once.

Are there specific questions or challenges these articles raised for you? Specific Scriptures they pointed to for which you're having difficulty seeing past their rebuttal? I'm sure several of us will be happy to have a crack at them. Tempting as it is to start a point by point rebuttal of each of the articles linked, even I don't have the nerve to get that wordy here ...

Most of all, welcome! You're ok here. God loves you, and we're prepared to accept his judgement on that, not the negative part of the church's!

Brent

[Pablo Rafael]

Gman,

I know exactly what you are going through. I spent 40 years of my life struggling with the idea that gay = evil. Others have already gone over some of the scriptural verses and done so more eloquently than I would, so I won't repeat. I will just say that not once does the Bible ever condemn committed monogamous gay relationships. No verse ever speaks against loving relationships. And as has been brought up already, the term "homosexual" isn't in the original Greek of the New Testament. The term sometimes translated that way is unclear and in no way refers to loving committed relationships anyhow. Like Brent said, if there are any specific scriptural verses or concepts you would like to discuss specifically, please bring them up.

Just to give you a personal story. I fought against the idea that I was gay. I denied it for decades. Then I accepted I was gay, but still believed that it was evil. I prayed repeatedly that God would take away these desires and thoughts, but nothing ever happened. It was only after I changed my prayer to "God what do you want to show me?" That it seemed to me that God replied, "Finally, you listen to me. You are exactly how I made you to be. Why have you been fighting me for so long?" I have no question that being gay is God's plan for me. Once I let God remove the weight from my soul, I was free.

Also I firmly believe that the key point in the Bible is LOVE. We have all sinned, but God loved us enough to send His Son. We are not judged by what we do, but by the rightouesness of Christ. Jesus said that the sum of the law is "Love the Lord, your God.", "Love your neighbor as yourself." Anyone who approaches the Bible without looking at it from a foundation of LOVE misses the main point. People who condemn loving gay relationships universally approach the topic without love.

People have picked out verses from the Bible and used them to support slavery, but slavery cannot be part of God's plan because it is contrary to God's message of love. People have used the Bible to prove that women should obey men. Using the Bible to oppress women runs counter to love, so it cannot be Godly. People have used the Bible to gain wealth at the expense of the poor. Where is the love in that? All through history people have used the Bible to oppress others and to gain power, wealth and influence. Those uses are against the plan of God. If any teaching does not come from love, it can't be part of God's plan of grace.

I know that I am not evil, and my gay orientation is not evil. I encourage you not to let youself get into that way of thinking. That way of thinking only leads to a slavery to guilt. If you look into your heart, I am sure you will also see that your orientation is not evil.

There are a lot of great books on the subject. Some I have read are:
Stranger at the Gate by Mel White (The book that really changed my life.)
The Church and the Homosexual(Or any other book by this author) by John J McNeil (Kind of heavy on Catholicism)
A Time to Embrace by William Stacy Johnson
Homosexuality and the Bible (Not sure if I have the title right) by Jack Rodgers (Heavy on Presbyterianism)
Straight into Gay America by Lars Clausen (Not a theological book, but an interesting read.)

Above are just a sampling of theologians: Catholic, Calvinist, Lutheran who are supportive of gay relationships. Christians are not uniformly anti-gay though it sometime seems that way. We are in a time when the realization is coming upon the church that being gay is OK. It is slow, but I believe that the Holy Spirit is at work.

Don't let people get you down.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[rustaman]

Above are just a sampling of theologians: Catholic, Calvinist, Lutheran who are supportive of gay relationships. Christians are not uniformly anti-gay though it sometime seems that way. We are in a time when the realization is coming upon the church that being gay is OK. It is slow, but I believe that the Holy Spirit is at work.

Don't let people get you down.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Let us not leave out the Episcopalians! They are probably the most gay friendly of all the mainline churches. There are openly gay priests and Bishops both here and in England. I went to a lecture last week given by retired Bishop John Shelby Spong. Even though he is heterosexual, Bishop Spong has bravely championed gay rights and inclusion for years. He is one of my heroes. His 2005 book The Sins of Scripture: Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love is a good read.

[Zerbie]

Gman,

How are you doing?

Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Much courage be yours.
:love: :pray:

[kara speltz]

Ok everyone, I’d like to explain my situation. I was born and raised Catholic and dedicated to my faith. I came out as gay about 2 years ago. At first, I integrated my sexuality and faith well, believing that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. One day a few months ago I saw a fundamentalist argument that the Bible in fact does. The problem is that both arguments are equally convincing to me, so it’s basically tearing me apart.

This link shows a bunch of articles that attempt to rebut pro-gay theology, and I am distressed because they do such a good job at it. I’d appreciate it if someone could read some of these articles and tell me what you think. I'd like to know if you think these arguments against pro-gay interpretations of the Bible are valid. Here's the link

http://www.leaderu.com/focus/gaytheology.html

I am in deep distress over this, so any help would be appreciated.

I am a Catholic lesbian who is very out at her parish. I've preached there and been on the parish council and just about every other ministry at my parish. Know that there is a place for you in the Church. Some of our greatest saints were gay. Two years ago, when we protested at the Bishops Conference we carried pictures of 4 Catholic gay and lesbian saints - Fr. Mychal Judge, Fr. Henri Nouwen, Dr. Tom Dooley and Mary Moylan (one of the Catonsville 9 - VN anti war protester).

Those 4 we know for sure were gay, but there are all sorts of saints that were gay, but our history has been denied us.

kara

[BrentRichards]

Just to give you a personal story. I fought against the idea that I was gay. I denied it for decades. Then I accepted I was gay, but still believed that it was evil. I prayed repeatedly that God would take away these desires and thoughts, but nothing ever happened. It was only after I changed my prayer to "God what do you want to show me?" That it seemed to me that God replied, "Finally, you listen to me. You are exactly how I made you to be. Why have you been fighting me for so long?" I have no question that being gay is God's plan for me. Once I let God remove the weight from my soul, I was free.

Also I firmly believe that the key point in the Bible is LOVE. We have all sinned, but God loved us enough to send His Son. We are not judged by what we do, but by the rightouesness of Christ. Jesus said that the sum of the law is "Love the Lord, your God.", "Love your neighbor as yourself." Anyone who approaches the Bible without looking at it from a foundation of LOVE misses the main point. People who condemn loving gay relationships universally approach the topic without love.

Marry me!
(Oh boy, am I gonna be in trouble with SOMEBODY now!)

[BenL]

gman,

I, too, grew up in the Catholic Church. In fact, in my late teens and early 20s -- a LOOOONNNG time ago -- I was in a religious order. I left after four years and before making solemn (permanent) vows, precisely because I am gay. The separation was one of the most painful experiences of my life, because I loved the religious life as observed by this particular order.

Hindsight being 20/20 (and I have a LOT of it), it's the best thing that ever happened to me. For years I had comdemned myself and implored God to remove my homosexual longings and "temptations." God, of course, remained silent, waiting for me to approach him in prayer without my homosexual agenda, to co-opt a phrase, but with my "child of God" agenda. I gradually learned that God loved me unconditionally just the way I was. I'm sure he didn't always love my behavior -- hell, I didn't always love my behavior.

Unlike some others here, I could not stay in the Catholic Church if I was going to grow in God's love as a Christian. I moved to the Episcopal Church through the ministry of a very holy and ascetic priest, now deceased, whom I consider my spiritual father. The Episcopal Church allowed me the freedom to develop my own conscience concerning my sexual orientation. It took all the years of my life (awright, I'm 63) to get where I am now. I consider everything I went through, good and bad, as preparation for the present I am living now. For me the salvation experience did not come in a moment's repentance, but in a lifetime of growth. And I still have a long road ahead.

I believe the Bible is God's Word. I also believe that using snippets of the Bible to clobber people with is a gross abuse of God's Word. To me it is a worse sin than homosexuality is to the fundamentalist. The Bible belongs to all of us. Don't let anyone take it from you or hold it hostage from you. Reclaim it and learn in it the marvelous story of God's love for all creation, human beings included. A phrase from the old Book of Common Prayer comes to mind: "all sorts and conditions of men,"so inclusive even in its non-inclusive language.

Gman, don't let anyone tell you God doesn't love you. They have no right to do that. It's blasphemous for them to presume to speak for God on this most important matter.

Much love and support.

[BrentRichards]

It's blasphemous for them to presume to speak for God on this most important matter.

Exactly! I pound this point with evangelicals and fundies ... You'd better be VERY cautious about speaking for God where he hasn't spoken for himself!