Inspired by the transgender threads. Do you feel your gender?

[Zerbie]

Genuine question, folks. It's about something I've never understood, ever in my life.

I get the impression from observing things people say that other people *feel* that they are a man, a woman, one or the other.

I have NO IDEA what ya'll are talking about.

I don't feel like a woman. I don't feel that I am a woman. But neither am I transgender. I know I'm not transgender because I don't feel a dissatisfaction with my body for being female. Neither do I feel a need to change it to male. If it were male, I can't imagine I would feel I was a man any more than I feel that I am a woman now. I just feel *me.*

Do you "feel" that you *are* a man? Do you "feel" that you *are* a woman? Can you explain to me how it feels to feel that you are a man or woman? How does that differ from just feeling that you're you?

Uhhhhh. . . does anyone even understand the question? :p

[Alecto]

I do understand. It's hard for cisgender people to consider it, because everything is "right" for us; it never has to be a worry. I never thought much about gender at all until I met a (now) very good friend who was trans, and who was also very patient with me.

Try, instead of thinking "if I was a man, would I feel like a man?"; "If I had a penis, how would that be?". It's deeper than genitalia, of course. Something else that might help to ponder is something my friend told me: a lot of it IS personal and feeling like everything matches up, but there's also a lot of it that's about having society react to you and see you the way you want to be seen. Men get treated differently from women. Without even getting into the power hierarchy (patriarchy) and sexism and privilige, there's a lot of things that aren't about privilige that are still "different".

Any of that make sense?


In answer to your question: I went a long time thinking that, while it would be different to be a girl, I wouldn't really mind. Having thought more about it, I think I've changed my opinion on that. I'm male, and was meant to be male, and would not feel right if people didn't recognize that. And if I didn't see that in the mirror. I can say that I DO feel my gender. (I think it arguably gets more complex than that, cause I'm into the idea of "queer" in a more literal sense lately, and embracing the Otherness thrust upon me as a gay male, but that's probably a discussion for a different time).

[andrewlittle]

Actually, the question makes perfect sense - so does the confusion over the question.

I used to act like I thought I should feel - not very pretty, that. Actually, to be honest, I acted like what I was told I was supposed to feel like. That is what I think really qualifies as gender confusion.

Now, I'm Andy and I feel like Andy.

Sometimes that means fighting back the urge to thump the snot out of someone in a testerone induced fit of bravado, and sometimes it means that I feel soft and cuddly, and just wanting to surround myself with luxuriously soft night clothes (vomit bags are in the upper left drawer).

Sometimes it means I want to use my 240-volt, 8-hp table saw with the 6 foot sliding top, and sometimes I want to cook using my gas stove top with the fine adjustment ability to stir fry or simmer.

It always means I want to feel pretty - and that's the one I never succeed at. Sigh!

[Zerbie]

Thanks for the replies. Andy, is your answer that you do, or do not, "feel" you are a man?

I'm actually more confused by Alecto's post than when I first posted. That's okay, it's interesting. I imagine if my body were male, I would have some very different experiences. But I cannot imagine that I would be any less me.

What does it feel like to feel that you are a (fill in the blank)?

I think I haven't actually communicated the question.

Let me try an example. Recently, a friend had final oral exams for a graduate degree. She told me that upon heading into the room for the oral comps, her anxiety was compounded because the professors present were all men, and the fact that she felt she had to hold her own *as a woman.* I had no idea what she was talking about. That makes no sense to me. I would be wondering if I knew my stuff - not wondering how I would hold my own as a gender.

Let me ask another question, one that might lead better to what I don't understand. I googled 'cisgender' and saw that one criterion of its definition was "identifying as" the birth gender.

HOW DOES ONE DEFINE identifying AS a gender? Does it mean feeling deeply and strongly that "I am a fill-in-the-blank??" Or can it mean shrugging your shoulders and saying, "Well, I guessssssss it falls under this category, if I have to pick"??

[BrianB]

They did a transgender discussion at the local PFLAG meeting a while ago. Some people on the panel said that for them gender identity was a very fluid thing. In other words, some days they identified as strongly male but other days their identity was strongly female. Their feeling affected how they presented themselves from day to day. I could relate to having a feminine side but I'm definitely male.

OTOH, I'm bisexual but that is fluid for me. Sometimes I'm strongly attracted to men and other times to women. It has shifted over time to the point that I'm mostly attracted to men right now. Have I muddied the waters more?

[BenL]

Zerbie, it is indeed confusing, especially for people who don't feel a disconnect between their bodies and their perceived gender.

One way to understand it a little better is to think of gender as what's between your ears and sex as what's between your legs. Sorry if that sounds crude, it's not meant to be.

My husband Charley has always felt male in his brain. He felt oppressed as a woman not because of the patriarchal dominance of men in our society but because he knew intuitively that he was a man. It took him more than 50 years to have the courage to embrace his true gender and then to do something about bringing his body into line with his male gender.

Gender is a social construct. It dictates how a person should appear and act. Some of it is body-based, like broad shoulders v. soft curves. Some of it is clothing or presentation. Some of it is mannerism. The line between butch lesbian and FTM transsexual, for instance, is a fine one. Butch lesbians embrace their femaleness but choose to express it in a masculine way. FTMs come to realize that they were never meant to be female at all.

Gender is about how a person is preceived by others. As someone else said, even without sexism men are perceived differently than women. Transsexuals are only part of the transgender continuum. Many younger people today experience their gender as fluid -- more male at times, more female at others. These genderqueer folks don't want to be imprisoned by either gender so inhabit the territory between the two.

All this is as difficult for a cisgender people to understand as it is for most heterosexuals to understand same-sex attraction.

But, in the end, all of us under the TBLG umbrella are gender outlaws. Even if we are not feminine men or masculine women, who we love is not who the majority expects us to love. That's where the BLG people transgress gender norms. Being transgender is about gender identity, not sexual orientation. But perception of our total behavior, whether gender expression or sexual attraction, is what makes us all queer (with apologies to those who don't like that word) and family.

[andrewlittle]

Thanks for the replies. Andy, is your answer that you do, or do not, "feel" you are a man?

I guess the answer is that I don't "feel" like I'm any gender specifically.

I am comfortable in my skin. When I look in a mirror, I recognize and appreciate myself (okay, maybe if I had a better looking head, a more svelt body and a big... okay, we won't go there). I am who I am, and that includes gender fluidity as far as feelings and actions.

The concept of "would I be comfortable as a woman" has no meaning for me. I am a man - I am a woman - I am a person who has a wide variety of emotions, feelings, actions and preferences each of which culture would like to classify as male or female. In the end, however, I don't give a rat's behind about culture's classifications - I am who I am.

While that happens to be embodied within a male physiology (which is approaching just a 50/50 shot, anyway), my physical appearance does not define who I am. Neither does it contradict who I am.

So, do I feel like a man? If someone could show me the definitive notion of what a man is supposed to feel like, and I'll give them an answer. Right after I tell them that they have no business telling me what I should feel like - and telling them that if they believe they have to define manhood - or womanhood, for that matter - they probably have serious doubts about their own conformity to the definitions they are trying to promote.

In short, Zerbie, my answer would have to be, "No! I don't feel like a man, because I don't like the popular definitions of 'man'."

[dsdrane]

I definitely feel comfortable in my male skin, but not so much manly, per se, at least not how it is usually defined by the majority in our culture.

Interestingly, I never felt so male as when I finally (at age 22) was intimate with another man. The thing that so many who are homophobic fear -- some sort of emasculation -- had the exact opposite effect on me.

Age plays a part, too. All my life, I always felt younger than I actually was, more boyish than "man-ish". Now, at 40, I feel 40, and in a very good way.

All the meters are registering correctly now.

;)

[Daniel]

Oh Zerbie....this is a very interesting subject. And it is written about extensively in a book called Gay Soul.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780062510419&itm=1

Some American Indians have what they call the "Two Spirited". And one of the writers in the book, Andrew Ramer (we met years ago- at the Healing Circle on 17th Street) has this to say.

The more I become who I am, the less like a man or a woman I feel. The more gay men become ourselves, the more we do become different. I think the future of the world, the hope of the world, depends upon us, that men who love men are the only people who can save the planet. That's our job, our purpose. We carry this other kind of energy that no one else carries, and it's entirely in our hands to save the world. On an archetypal level, every tribe has its own characteristics that are woven our of the total fabric of what it means to be a human being. However, since we are talking about gay men specifically here, it is my belief that we are the ones that stand at the outermost edge of transformation.

I agree with Ramer insofar that GLBT people (not just men btw) have a way of bringing healing to the world. We seem to be natural go-betweens. Some American Indian tribes called this being Two Spirited.

And my life has unfolded as his has: the older I get, the more I experience myself as being something other than male or female. I've always gotten a double-take from people, as if their expectation of what I should be did not match up with the reality.

I also agree with David. Sleeping with another man made me understand what male energy was all about. And what a thrill that was/is. It was/is healing.

[Zerbie]

They did a transgender discussion at the local PFLAG meeting a while ago. Some people on the panel said that for them gender identity was a very fluid thing. In other words, some days they identified as strongly male but other days their identity was strongly female. Their feeling affected how they presented themselves from day to day. I could relate to having a feminine side but I'm definitely male.

OTOH, I'm bisexual but that is fluid for me. Sometimes I'm strongly attracted to men and other times to women. It has shifted over time to the point that I'm mostly attracted to men right now. Have I muddied the waters more?

Not at all! That was clear as day! Me too, to all of the above.

Now that's more like what I experience. I have "moods" for lack of a better word, where I might feel sort of "femme" for a while, or somewhat 'testosterone laden' for a while, but I don't "identify" AS a gender.

I think what it comes down to is that I don't have a stable consistent self-identity in a gendered way. But apparently others do. I can think of many cisgendered people who have said things that indicate they really feel they *are* a man or a woman. And I don't understand what that could possibly feel *like.*

[Zerbie]

Zerbie, it is indeed confusing, especially for people who don't feel a disconnect between their bodies and their perceived gender.

One way to understand it a little better is to think of gender as what's between your ears and sex as what's between your legs. Sorry if that sounds crude, it's not meant to be.

My husband Charley has always felt male in his brain. He felt oppressed as a woman not because of the patriarchal dominance of men in our society but because he knew intuitively that he was a man. It took him more than 50 years to have the courage to embrace his true gender and then to do something about bringing his body into line with his male gender.

Gender is a social construct. It dictates how a person should appear and act. Some of it is body-based, like broad shoulders v. soft curves. Some of it is clothing or presentation. Some of it is mannerism. The line between butch lesbian and FTM transsexual, for instance, is a fine one. Butch lesbians embrace their femaleness but choose to express it in a masculine way. FTMs come to realize that they were never meant to be female at all.

Gender is about how a person is preceived by others. As someone else said, even without sexism men are perceived differently than women. Transsexuals are only part of the transgender continuum. Many younger people today experience their gender as fluid -- more male at times, more female at others. These genderqueer folks don't want to be imprisoned by either gender so inhabit the territory between the two.

All this is as difficult for a cisgender people to understand as it is for most heterosexuals to understand same-sex attraction.

But, in the end, all of us under the TBLG umbrella are gender outlaws. Even if we are not feminine men or masculine women, who we love is not who the majority expects us to love. That's where the BLG people transgress gender norms. Being transgender is about gender identity, not sexual orientation. But perception of our total behavior, whether gender expression or sexual attraction, is what makes us all queer (with apologies to those who don't like that word) and family.

Hey Ben!

This all makes complete sense to me, too. Tho it took about 3 minutes to figure out what TBLG was. :lol:

You hit on something in your first line, way above. You mention people who don't experience a disconnect between their bodies and their perceived gender. I don't have a disconnect between my body and my perceived gender. But I have a disconnect between who I am, and my perceived gender. Which I believe would also be there if my body were male.

[Zerbie]

:weee: :rainbow: :good: :lol: :lol:

Andy - I'm with ya. I'm just me, and I have a hard time with people pigeon-holing where they think I should be because of the form my body appears with. Thanks for elaborating. We're very much alike in this way.

Daniel, I was ready to smack Ramer for leaving me out of the Save The World equation - I wanna save the world, too, dammit! Thanks for putting the Ls Bs and Ts back in to the equation. That corrects Ramer's formula. And I know some Ss who belong there too.

David and Daniel - to both o' ya, I'm right with you when you mention the male energy that was, what's the word, affirmed? And perhaps increased? by intimacy with other men. I never felt more "feminine" in my life than when I was dating lesbian women. That was the one time when I really started connecting the "me" sense to my body in a gendered way. I felt more female when dating women than I've ever felt around men. In fact, when I was attracted to men was when my latent (invisible to all but me!) butch side came out. I call him Mr. Testosterone, and he really knows how to lure in a man. :lol:

[dsdrane]

Oooooooo! May I get some tutorials from Mr. Testosterone, por favor???

:D

[Zerbie]

Oooooooo! May I get some tutorials from Mr. Testosterone, por favor???

:D

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You don't need 'em darlin'.

[Dash]

I think as a guy growing up, I was more sensitive about something that I felt I wasn't No...I don't really feel myself as particularly male or female, though I've never wanted to be anything else either (I'm rather fond of my body). An old friend/pastor/therapist once remarked that I seemed balanced between male and female.

I've always been kinda put off by both girls that seem too girly (affectedly so) and guys that are too macho. :sick: A little authenticity goes a long way, and the people I love most usually have a healthy blend.

Mostly, I just feel like a kid. Look what I picked!! My co-worker and I were passing the lilacs and lily of the valley back and forth like a doobie! :lol:

[Sherrie Z]

These two books are especially interesting in terms of discussing gender and identity ...

"Gender Outlaw" by Kate Bornstein

"She's Not the Man I Married" by Helen Boyd

Kate tells about her transgender experiences and about gender in general ... Helen tells about being married to a cross-dresser who may or may not be transitioning further, and also about her own gender identity, and about gender in general (also see Helen's book "My Husband Betty")

*************************************

Answering the question of whether I *feel* my gender (I'm a non-trans female) ... when I've thought about this question in the past, I've mostly leaned toward saying that I just feel like me and not so much in terms of gender ... but in some ways I could answer yes, in some ways I could answer no ... even with social expectations and political considerations aside ... and this post would be really, really long if I attempted to describe what all that might mean (LOL) ... at any rate, I can't say that I feel male per se, but I sometimes feel somewhat androgynous ... in previous posts, Zerbie has spoken of identifying with gay men, and I have responded likewise ... I like people of all genders and orientations, but I tend to be especially comfortable around gay men. So whatever all that means ... I'm especially interested in this topic, thanks for bringing this up! : )

*************************************

How encouraging it was this week to see the cover story from Newsweek on "The Mystery of Gender" ... with this phrase on the cover: "Aside from the obvious, what makes us male or female? The new visibility of Transgender America is shedding light on the ancient riddle of identity"

Then inside:

"A growing number of Americans are taking their private struggles with their identities into the public realm. How those who believe they were born with the wrong bodies are forcing us to re-examine what it means to be male and female."

Exactly. Not that we here at Soulforce need to be forced, LOL ... and "shedding light" on the riddle ... no kidding! Hooray! How wonderful that a fuller rainbow of gender is finally getting more mainstream coverage ... and that the presence and visibility of more colors in the rainbow causes everyone to become more aware of their own colors and hopefully and especially to appreciate the colors of others.

The online version of Newsweek has links to additional articles, see their sidebar for more links:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18618970/site/newsweek/

[BrentRichards]

Mostly, I just feel like a kid. Look what I picked!! My co-worker and I were passing the lilacs and lily of the valley back and forth like a doobie! :lol:

Every time I smell lilacs ... [Somebody prove their musical theater savvy and identify that line ...]

I'm wondering if I don't "feel" my gender because my gender identification (though not my orientation) is "in line" with the cultural norms/expectations. Much like I'm seldom aware of my "whiteness?" I'd imagine that trans people are only naturally more aware of what it "feels like" to be their identified gender.

I can however very much identify with the feeling of "not being a real man" ... thanks to the cultural messages most of us grew up with about what "real men" are like ... they're jocks, sports fanatics, whatever ... oh, yeah, and they don't like other men! Feeling at home with myself as a "real man" was a tremendous part of the "groundwork" for coming out.

[Sherrie Z]

"Every time I smell lilacs" ... from Nunsense ... (OK, I looked it up) ... : )

And Lilies of the Field? A film about nuns ... do I detect a theme here? (wink wink)

[Alecto]

I reviewed what my post entailed, and...yes, it does kind of raise more questions than it answers, but I think that can be ok. Right? There's a lot of different views about gender that I can kind of understand, all of which agree on one thing: enforcing a false dichotomy sucks. Some people want to essentially do away with the concept of gender, so that there's "no gender"; everyone is percieved as an individual. Other people think there should be room for infinite genders, and that gender is important and should remain in the world, but just with infinite options. Honestly...it does all get really confusing, and sometimes I'm ok with saying "I don't get this part, but I get that I don't get it so that's kind of ok".

"I imagine if my body were male, I would have some very different experiences. But I cannot imagine that I would be any less me." Exactly. Sort of. You would still be you regardless of your body parts, but people wouldn't see you the same way. And when you looked in the mirror, you wouldn't see yourself the same way. There would be a disconnect with what you see, and what othe rpeople see, and how you KNOW you are as a person.

As for what it feels like to be male...Like I briefly mentioned, I think a part of this ties in with my sexuality. Maybe "gay male" is a better label for the gender that I feel. That is such an important part of my identity...it's like if I were a lesbian instead, I can't even imagine that. Because I'd be into women. And if I were a heterosexual woman instead, I can't even imagine that, because I'd be heterosexual. Does that sound stupid? There is also ...I guess there's the "male energy" people were talking about. I'll third or fourth the idea that sex with a man is somehow very ...gender-laden and empowering. I don't know. I guess answering the question is like answering "what does it feel like to feel your arm?". It's there, and you know it's there, and even when you close your eyes you can kind of feel it's shape and where it's at, but it's impossible to describe it to, say, an amoeba (first thing I could think of without arms ;D). Or to someone who has arms, but doesn't really think about 'em, or doesn't feel them. Am I making sense without sounding terribly patronizing? Cause that's not the direction I'm trying to go.

[marutidas]

I think I have an intering view on gender, when I am Pandora, I feel like a woman though the pluming does not match, I think gender lyes more in the mind and spirit that it does in the body itself. I don't look at being a drag queen as just putting on a dress, but more expressing my feminine nature. Giving the other part of my soul a name and form. that does not mean I want to change my external gender.

I have been contemplating the roles of my two halfs for a while.
I feel my shakti or creative feminine force is where a great deal of confidence lyes. giving a name to my other half has helps me feel like a whole person. when I am not Pandora, I feel kinda gender neutral. I feel male thats only because of my external gender.

Well, thats just my thoughts on the matter.

[tpdncr4christ]

I am sure I am male.

My dad has a comic shoved somewhere in his file cabinet of a little boy and little girl. Now the girl has her hand in the boy's pants. The caption reads: "So that's why little boys run faster than little girls, stick shift and ball bearings!"

I am certain of my stick shift and ball bearings.

[Zerbie]

I think as a guy growing up, I was more sensitive about something that I felt I wasn't No...I don't really feel myself as particularly male or female, though I've never wanted to be anything else either (I'm rather fond of my body).

Me too!! Mine, I mean. ;)

An old friend/pastor/therapist once remarked that I seemed balanced between male and female.

Me too!! I've been told that often, as long as we're talking about personality, not appearance. Somewhere, I have results of an online test that show my brain is exactly situated at the mid-point between the male brain and the female brain. Don't know how reliable that test was, tho. :p

I've always been kinda put off by both girls that seem too girly (affectedly so) and guys that are too macho. :sick:

Ugh! yuck! I hate that!! I can't stand affectations. Luckily, I don't see a lot of that. When I do, it's mostly at the gym - what IS it about the gym that brings out rigid gender stereotypes?


A little authenticity goes a long way, and the people I love most usually have a healthy blend.

Mostly, I just feel like a kid. :lol:

Uh huh! Gimme authenticity any day. If ya wanna see if I feel like a kid, come look at the living room - toy animals everywhere you look. :p

[Zerbie]

T*************************************

Answering the question of whether I *feel* my gender (I'm a non-trans female) ... when I've thought about this question in the past, I've mostly leaned toward saying that I just feel like me and not so much in terms of gender ... but in some ways I could answer yes, in some ways I could answer no ... even with social expectations and political considerations aside ... and this post would be really, really long if I attempted to describe what all that might mean (LOL) ... at any rate, I can't say that I feel male per se, but I sometimes feel somewhat androgynous ... in previous posts, Zerbie has spoken of identifying with gay men, and I have responded likewise ... I like people of all genders and orientations, but I tend to be especially comfortable around gay men. So whatever all that means ... I'm especially interested in this topic, thanks for bringing this up! : )

*************************************

/[/url]

I hear ya. Okay, there IS *one* circumstance when I can actually *feel* my gender. It's literally the only time in my life I'm aware of feeling female.

Are ya ready for this?

It's when I'm gardening - and only the food/herb crops. Flowers don't give me the same feeling. Sowing seeds, harvesting vegetables, I suddenly get hit with this awareness of my body as female AND what I am doing "feels" female. I get hit with a thought that for all that my life would be unrecognizable to someone from 10000 years ago, if you suddenly dropped a woman from 10,000 years ago into the garden, she and I would instantly connect over the continuity of working to support life from the goods of the earth.

Weird 'nuff?

Anyway Sherrie - what is it about gay men? Having gay men around automatically makes me feel way more comfortable than when they aren't. A way to make a place instantly feel more like home. :love:

I've felt this way since I was in Kindergarten. What does it mean?!?!?! :lol:

Though ya know? There have been women like us for hundreds of years. I found us in something like an 8th century visigothic penal code. . . said that god damns women who enjoy the companionship of "perverts" and "loose-tongued catamites." I was like, uh oh,:eek: that's me.

Then again, I also think that lesbians walk on water.

[Zerbie]

"I imagine if my body were male, I would have some very different experiences. But I cannot imagine that I would be any less me." Exactly. Sort of. You would still be you regardless of your body parts, but people wouldn't see you the same way. And when you looked in the mirror, you wouldn't see yourself the same way. There would be a disconnect with what you see, and what othe rpeople see, and how you KNOW you are as a person.

.

In other words, you're saying absolutely nothing would change about the way I experience (or rather, don't experience) gender. Because that's what it's like now.

Why did you think your answer would be read as patronizing? All I see is your attempt to describe a feeling (thanks, I knew it was a weird question when I asked!), and your philosophy - which does not seem all that unlike my own, as it turns out.

[Alecto]

I think I have an intering view on gender, when I am Pandora, I feel like a woman though the pluming does not match, I think gender lyes more in the mind and spirit that it does in the body itself. I don't look at being a drag queen as just putting on a dress, but more expressing my feminine nature. Giving the other part of my soul a name and form. that does not mean I want to change my external gender.

I have been contemplating the roles of my two halfs for a while.
I feel my shakti or creative feminine force is where a great deal of confidence lyes. giving a name to my other half has helps me feel like a whole person. when I am not Pandora, I feel kinda gender neutral. I feel male thats only because of my external gender.

Well, thats just my thoughts on the matter.

lol. I feel very very male when I'm not in drag, and pretty much what you described when I am. Makes for an interesting dichotomy.


And, Zerbie, I'm saying that gender is in the mind. So you would still know your gender, you would still be YOU. But people would be less likely to be able to see you for you.
The gardening thing sounds...awesome. My family has, instead of a green-thumb, a rotting thumb of death when it comes to keeping any kind of plants alive, but it does sound very...powerful. To nurture life.

Oh, and the reason I wasn't sure how it sounded...I have a tendancy to come here pretty late at night. And then I try to type what I want to say, and sometimes I read it over and remember it's the internet without any voice inflection, and remember that people here don't really know me, and...I try to look out for things that could be taken wrong. ::shrug:: I also don't want to come off as some guru of gender politics; I've talked some things over with a friend, and I know about some of the differing views out in "the community", but...I'm no expert. And I didn't want it to sound like I was talking down to you or anything, like "god why isn't she getting this".

[Zerbie]

lol. I feel very very male when I'm not in drag, and pretty much what you described when I am. Makes for an interesting dichotomy.


And, Zerbie, I'm saying that gender is in the mind. So you would still know your gender, you would still be YOU. But people would be less likely to be able to see you for you.
".

Why would they be less likely to see me as me if my body were male than they are right now?

[tdogg]

I've always been kinda put off by both girls that seem too girly (affectedly so) and guys that are too macho. :sick: A little authenticity goes a long way, and the people I love most usually have a healthy blend.


Same here. Then again, sometimes I am probably considered a bit girly...well, ok, one example... My partner and I were at a friend's place at a party. They had lots of friends and neighbors over. We were in a very competitive volleyball game (background, other than riding horses and backpacking, and on occasion lifting weights like a pro, I am NOT all that athletic!). Well, the ball was volleyed my way, and like a true girly girl, I missed the ball (although I gave it a good try), so I had to run after it. It was sandy, and well I just don't run all that well in the sand, so...I sort of did my girl run where I tried to balance with my arms as well as my legs and, one gentleman (not sure how 'gentle' he was..) in the game mentioned "well we know who isn't the man." His ignorance is still good for a chuckle from me....:lol:

But really, I'm kinda like Uncle Andy. Sometimes I feel more feminine and sometimes more masculine. Some days I want to be cuddled and fussed over and hold a silk blanket, and sometimes I want to lift weights and dig ditches and show my biceps to everyone. I don't necessarily think of these things as feminine or masculine - just some days I feel strong and testosteronish and sometimes I feel less strong and my estrogen is kicking in. Some days jeans & hiking boots, some days skirts & tall boots.

I enjoy just being me and not really fitting into anyone's stereotype. It frees me up to express myself however I want and to accept however I feel. I can't say that I feel like a woman, like others have said, it would depend on an interpretation of what a woman is supposed to feel like. I like my body, glad I'm a female for various reasons (especially riding them horsies!), but otherwise I can't be certain what I'm supposed to feel to feel like a woman.

New mystery...why am I the spider whisperer, but scream at moths??? Why can I admire snakes & lizards, but cringe at the thought of more than 10 ants??? HUH??? Where is the male or female in that?? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I just love being 'me' :love::rainbow::cowboy::magic::aparty::weee:

[Zerbie]

But really, I'm kinda like Uncle Andy. Sometimes I feel more feminine and sometimes more masculine. Some days I want to be cuddled and fussed over and hold a silk blanket, and sometimes I want to lift weights and dig ditches and show my biceps to everyone.

Whoo whoo!! (Whistles) ;)



I don't necessarily think of these things as feminine or masculine - just some days I feel strong and testosteronish and sometimes I feel less strong and my estrogen is kicking in. Some days jeans & hiking boots, some days skirts & tall boots.

:love::rainbow::cowboy::magic::aparty::weee:

Me too. :)

[BruceChris]

A lesbian, and a tomboy, and a jock-ette. Definitely a hoyden, on a regular basis. Many of my best friends are lesbians, or just women, and I always feel better around females, than males.

But surgery is such a hassle, and I know that if I wore a dress, I would still look pretty much like I do in one now, so what's the point? Actually, I still think that tomboys are generally the neatest people around, and I still wanna grow up to be Ann Bancroft, but I know it ain't gonna happen. So, as long as I can "pass" as a guy, you won't tell anybody, will ya?

Peace and Love, Chris

[Pablo Rafael]

Interesting thread, Zerbie.
And interesting responses from everybody.

Somehow I have never thought of this issue. I feel very comfortable being male. I have never thought of myself in any different way. I have a lot of the traditional male characteristics. I like big physical projects and activities. The women I work with often make comments with exasperation such as, "That's just what you'd expect a guy to think!" I am usually left clueless with a "huh? whud I do now?" response.

Being the rebel that I am, though, I hate to keep people confined to stereotypes. If I want to do something that is generaly considered "feminine" I will do it. I especialy hate the macho male pretense that so many men have. Everyone should just be themselves. When I was a teenager and we had family gatherings, the men and women would separate into different groups. I would sometimes join the women just to upset the system.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[tdogg]

A lesbian, and a tomboy, and a jock-ette. Definitely a hoyden, on a regular basis. Many of my best friends are lesbians, or just women, and I always feel better around females, than males.

But surgery is such a hassle, and I know that if I wore a dress, I would still look pretty much like I do in one now, so what's the point? Actually, I still think that tomboys are generally the neatest people around, and I still wanna grow up to be Ann Bancroft, but I know it ain't gonna happen. So, as long as I can "pass" as a guy, you won't tell anybody, will ya?

Peace and Love, Chris

Oh BruceChris - you are beautiful just as you are!! Inside & out! Don't change a thang honey. :love::rainbow:

[dsdrane]

I also would make a conscious decision not to join "the menfolk" in some group activity. I always have.

For example, Christmas 2004 was a big, huge reunion in Maine at my aunt & uncle's farm. The house is ridiculously large and I think we slept 30 on Christmas Eve. All in beds. Anyhoo, the menfolk like activities like getting a circa 1950 tractor to start just for the hell of it on a day where the mercury barely managed to break 15 degrees Fahrenheit.

I don't think so.

Even without the insane weather, I have no desire to take part. I love them all and, to a man, each is a great guy. Truly...and no gay issues...at least insofar as it impacts me. (And I would know.)

I've just always felt more comfortable with the women.

Why would I want to pass up an opportunity to hang with my 1st cousins' grandmother, who, for all intents and purposes, is my grandmother, too, and who is an incredibly interesting person, with an incredible life...only you have to honor her enough to slow down long enough to actually speak with her.

It never ceases to amaze me how few do.

[Sherrie Z]

I hear ya. Okay, there IS *one* circumstance when I can actually *feel* my gender. It's literally the only time in my life I'm aware of feeling female.

Are ya ready for this?

It's when I'm gardening - and only the food/herb crops. Flowers don't give me the same feeling. Sowing seeds, harvesting vegetables, I suddenly get hit with this awareness of my body as female AND what I am doing "feels" female. I get hit with a thought that for all that my life would be unrecognizable to someone from 10000 years ago, if you suddenly dropped a woman from 10,000 years ago into the garden, she and I would instantly connect over the continuity of working to support life from the goods of the earth.

Weird 'nuff?

Cool 'nuff! Brings to mind discussions about "women's spirituality" and/or "earth religions" ... with connections between women and herbs, cats, and the moon ... : )

Anyway Sherrie - what is it about gay men? Having gay men around automatically makes me feel way more comfortable than when they aren't. A way to make a place instantly feel more like home. :love:

I've felt this way since I was in Kindergarten. What does it mean?!?!?! :lol:

And living in San Francisco, I can go to the Castro ... the famous "gay neighborhood" ... aka "gay mecca" ... and just revel in the energy there. It just feels ... so much like HOME!

Though ya know? There have been women like us for hundreds of years. I found us in something like an 8th century visigothic penal code. . . said that god damns women who enjoy the companionship of "perverts" and "loose-tongued catamites." I was like, uh oh,:eek: that's me.

LOL, I love this!!! Now I'm curious ... I think there are some books that have explored these relationships in our post-Will&Grace/Margaret Cho world ... I'm intrigued! Research alert!

Then again, I also think that lesbians walk on water.

LOL ... reminds me of a great quote from the Gary Olden movie "Prick Up Your Ears" that essentially describes lesbians as the highest class of people. I'll try to find it ... : )



PS Just as I'm typing this ... there was a mention of "jewel tones" on HGTV. LOL, see thread on color for reference ... wink wink ... : )

[Julie Nemecek]

As a recently fully out transgender (M2F), I can agree with much of what has been said (gender as a continuum, between your ears, etc.) but would also add that for many transgender people (especially transsexuals) there is a remarkable since of peace and comfort that comes from transitioning (hormones as well as other changes). This should not be a surprise in that living authentically beats living a lie every time. My blood pressure has dropped, I sleep better, I wake up looking forward to the day, my walk with Christ has grown immeasurably deeper, and worship ever-so-more precious. Colors and smells draw my attention more, I am a more open and engaging person (so my wife, Joanne, says), and sometimes it takes trying on 3 or 4 outfits before one feels right for the day. My emotions and my head now combine to help me think/feel/respond to other people and how I experience life.

This is the first time I have tried to put this into words, but this is what it feels like for me to "feel like a woman". All that plus that it feels right and God-honoring.

[Zerbie]

As a recently fully out transgender (M2F), I can agree with much of what has been said (gender as a continuum, between your ears, etc.) but would also add that for many transgender people (especially transsexuals) there is a remarkable since of peace and comfort that comes from transitioning (hormones as well as other changes). This should not be a surprise in that living authentically beats living a lie every time. My blood pressure has dropped, I sleep better, I wake up looking forward to the day, my walk with Christ has grown immeasurably deeper, and worship ever-so-more precious. Colors and smells draw my attention more, I am a more open and engaging person (so my wife, Joanne, says), and sometimes it takes trying on 3 or 4 outfits before one feels right for the day. My emotions and my head now combine to help me think/feel/respond to other people and how I experience life.

This is the first time I have tried to put this into words, but this is what it feels like for me to "feel like a woman". All that plus that it feels right and God-honoring.

Wow, that sounds wonderful!! Congratulations! :)

Welcome to the forum, Julie.

[Zerbie]

BruceChris, we love you!! :love::love::love:

Hey Pablo and David: What IS it with family gatherings? My family of origin always split into two groups, men & women, also. It was usually, women standing around in the kitchen where nothing of substance either happened or was talked about, and men sitting in the living room, with the television blasting & shouting over it, or AT it. Then there was me: depending upon whose house the gathering was held at, I would escape off to the basement or the attic and work on research projects for school all day. I would get huge chunks of term papers outlined or written on Thanksgiving or Easter.

Sherrie: I am so totally horrendously jealous of you for living in MECCA!! (I've been calling the Castro Mecca since I was a little girl.) Once, hubby & I drove through on a vacation trip. There was no place to park, so hubby, who was driving, said we would not get out of the car. I was like, clawing the car window!!

[BrentRichards]

As a recently fully out transgender (M2F), I can agree with much of what has been said (gender as a continuum, between your ears, etc.) but would also add that for many transgender people (especially transsexuals) there is a remarkable since of peace and comfort that comes from transitioning (hormones as well as other changes). This should not be a surprise in that living authentically beats living a lie every time. My blood pressure has dropped, I sleep better, I wake up looking forward to the day, my walk with Christ has grown immeasurably deeper, and worship ever-so-more precious. Colors and smells draw my attention more, I am a more open and engaging person (so my wife, Joanne, says), and sometimes it takes trying on 3 or 4 outfits before one feels right for the day. My emotions and my head now combine to help me think/feel/respond to other people and how I experience life.

This is the first time I have tried to put this into words, but this is what it feels like for me to "feel like a woman". All that plus that it feels right and God-honoring.

Hi Julie! Welcome ... you had some pretty nice coverage in Newsweek! Thanks for taking a stand for all of us GLBT folk!

[Julie Nemecek]

Thanks for the welcomes. Transgender acceptance and protections are growing fast. In the last few months five states have added "gender identity" to their non-discrimination laws. ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) is working its way through congress to add sexual orientation and gender identity to federal protections. Joanne and I were in D.C. last week and the sense is that it may pass both houses this time.

[Zerbie]

Thanks for the welcomes. Transgender acceptance and protections are growing fast. In the last few months five states have added "gender identity" to their non-discrimination laws. ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) is working its way through congress to add sexual orientation and gender identity to federal protections. Joanne and I were in D.C. last week and the sense is that it may pass both houses this time.

That would be awesome! Let's hope so. And also lobby like h*ll.

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks for the welcomes. Transgender acceptance and protections are growing fast. In the last few months five states have added "gender identity" to their non-discrimination laws. ENDA (Employment Non-Discrimination Act) is working its way through congress to add sexual orientation and gender identity to federal protections. Joanne and I were in D.C. last week and the sense is that it may pass both houses this time.


Welcome, Julie!

We are honored to have you join us! It was great to see your story and photo in the recent Newsweek article on "(Rethinking) Gender" ... : )

We have posted some info about ENDA and the Matthew Shepard Act in the "GLBT News/Issues" section of this forum, so it is very nice to hear your encouraging words about those efforts.

By the way, how are you enjoying your new toaster? (wink wink)

Love & Hugs,

Sherrie Z

[Sherrie Z]

Sherrie: I am so totally horrendously jealous of you for living in MECCA!! (I've been calling the Castro Mecca since I was a little girl.) Once, hubby & I drove through on a vacation trip. There was no place to park, so hubby, who was driving, said we would not get out of the car. I was like, clawing the car window!!


In that case, you'll just have to come out and visit again, OK? I'll definitely think of you the next time I'm there. Maybe someday we could meet under the huge rainbow flag! (under the rainbow? over the rainbow?)

Or maybe this would work ... Just close your eyes, click your ruby slippers together, and say ... "there's no place like the Castro, there's no place like the Castro" ... : )

[tdogg]

Anchor Oyster Bar (in the Castro) - best place for raw oysters in SF and possibly anywhere!!! I live for the 1 - 2 x a year I get over there! :love:

[BruceChris]

You sound like a woman who is at peace with herself, and your picture looks very nice. Have a wonderful life.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[DanaH]

Well, there are some interesting posts here. I am transgendered, and I can tell you that I never feel like a man. I have known I was female since early grade school. Do I "Feel" like a woman? I don't know how to answer that.

What makes a woman a woman and a man a man? Is it a vagina or a penis?

I think we can all agree that there are more differences that that.

What makes us attracted to women or men?

I don't have the answer to either, but I know the answer isn't anatomy.

I wish I had the answer to this, I don't? I am glad to see you discussing it, it helps me to understand my gay and lesbian friends a little better.

Brian said above something about being bi-sexual, attracted to men at one time and women at another. Maybe there is such a thing as bi-gendered, you get the idea. There are so many facets to gender identity and orientation. But then, I would never suggest that you shouldn't be gay because there are times you are attracted to the opposite sex.

I'm not suggesting that you are telling me I shouldn't be transgender, just thinking out loud.

[BrianB]

Hi Dana, I've come to the conclusion that I am who I am. Whether that's someone who feels feminine and frilly or somone who feels macho and manly. Another thing is that I'm attracted to a person. It does not matter to me if they have male plumbing, female plumbing, or something in between. I believe we should all just "be" and love whoever we love.

[tdogg]

Hi Dana, I've come to the conclusion that I am who I am. Whether that's someone who feels feminine and frilly or somone who feels macho and manly. Another thing is that I'm attracted to a person. It does not matter to me if they have male plumbing, female plumbing, or something in between. I believe we should all just "be" and love whoever we love.

Perfectly said Brian!

[Zerbie]

Well, there are some interesting posts here. I am transgendered, and I can tell you that I never feel like a man. I have known I was female since early grade school. Do I "Feel" like a woman? I don't know how to answer that.

What makes a woman a woman and a man a man? Is it a vagina or a penis?

I think we can all agree that there are more differences that that.

What makes us attracted to women or men?

I don't have the answer to either, but I know the answer isn't anatomy.

I wish I had the answer to this, I don't? I am glad to see you discussing it, it helps me to understand my gay and lesbian friends a little better.

Brian said above something about being bi-sexual, attracted to men at one time and women at another. Maybe there is such a thing as bi-gendered, you get the idea. There are so many facets to gender identity and orientation. But then, I would never suggest that you shouldn't be gay because there are times you are attracted to the opposite sex.

I'm not suggesting that you are telling me I shouldn't be transgender, just thinking out loud.

No of course not.

Hmmmmm. Maybe I should look into the bi-gendered thing. But there is still the preliminary question of what it means to be gendered, first, before bi-gendered. Or is there a non-gendered? A switching-gendered?? :confused::confused:

I've always had the take that I'm me regardless of my body, and okay, the body is female, so "woman" fits as a descriptor, but it isn't WHAT I am. Maybe that's a particular mindset or personality trait of its own. Or maybe I can accept that "woman" fits as a description because there isn't a male gender identity for it to conflict with and if I were trans, there would have been, and then I would have noticed. :confused:

Oh geez - I think I just muddied it up more! :lol:

Let me ask you a question Dana. Maybe it's one that's impossible to answer, I don't know. The one thing I don't get from the transgender experience, since I don't share it, is how you know you have a gender that conflicts with your body. What instinct tells you so? Of course, I'm assuming conflict. While I don't feel I'm a woman, I neither feel I am a man, and have no conflict with my body. I imagine that a transgender person does experience a conflict between their physical presentation and how they feel they really are. If I've gotten that wrong, please help.

[DanaH]

Let me ask you a question Dana. Maybe it's one that's impossible to answer, I don't know. The one thing I don't get from the transgender experience, since I don't share it, is how you know you have a gender that conflicts with your body. What instinct tells you so? Of course, I'm assuming conflict. While I don't feel I'm a woman, I neither feel I am a man, and have no conflict with my body. I imagine that a transgender person does experience a conflict between their physical presentation and how they feel they really are. If I've gotten that wrong, please help.

Zerbie, good questions, and I wish I knew the answers. Let me muttle a little bit and see what comes out. :lol:

When a young girl gets to wear her first dress, what instinct is that? Is it simply a right of passing? When your breasts start to grow or when you get your period, or when you just want to cry or do your hair, when you don't want to play ball and you're not interested in cars. I understand the difficulty in understanding, and I wish I knew what it was. All I know is my body didn't grow to match my mind. I want hips and breasts, I want to be able to have children (which I will never be able to do). I want a lot of things female, and feminine, but most of all, I just want the body that didn't grow. I feel deformed.

I had a girlfriend once, Angie. She still holds a special place in my heart. She was a TomBoy, and I hope that term isn't offensive to anyone. She did not, and does not identify as a male. She also never wanted to wear dresses, loved baseball, and joined the military. To me, she had a masculine energy that I was attracted to.

I've read here and in other strings how some of you feel that you just are who you are. Or that you felt more feminine when with women. What is that feminine feeling? Or if you just are who you are, couldn't you equally be in love with someone of the opposite anatomy? Wouldn't that make life easier. Are you attracted to the anatomy or are you attracted with what goes along with it (usually :-)? I'm truly not trying to be disrespectful. I think it's great that we can ask these questions of ourselves in a respectful and open way.

I would like to add, and I'm a little afraid of putting this here, but I think it's necessary. In my community there are differences between Cross Dressers, Drag Queens and Transexuals. I truly don't understand cross dressers or drag queens. I know that I'm not a gay man and I know that dressing in womens clothes doesn't give me sexual pleasure. I know that all of this kind of muddies the waters, but I guess it just is what it is.

Being involved, really involved, in GLBT communities for the past 5 years, I have learned to respect everyone in the GLBT spectrum.

Did I answer any of your questions? I'm not sure. I would be happy to talk more.

[lydiam]

So, I haven't jumped in on this conversation yet, but I'm fascinated because I'm bisexual and I've been thinking about what gender means to me lately.

I've never been unhappy with my gender, just with the concept of gender. I remember a lot of confusion as a child, for example when my brother (12 years older) and his guy friends would come in from playing basketball and take their shirts off, I would take mine off too and I didn't understand why I was getting in trouble for that... if they can do it, so can I. I also remember going to slumber parties as a young teen and everyone going around the circle talking about which boy they had a crush on this week... I always said "I don't have a crush on any boys" (and I didn't...) but what I was thinking was "Why didn't we invite the boys? And why are we talking about them like they're aliens that have come to rescue us... or abduct us... or something us..?" :p

I didn't understand the difference and I HATED:mad: anyone being treated differently than anyone else. I kind of thought... men and women were different because they got treated differently, not because they really are different. I'm thinking there's more to it than that now that I've gotten to talk to some transgendered people and taken some time to really try to feel what that might feel like. I understand not wanting to be treated like a certain gender is treated... I just don't understand yet really wanting to be treated like the other gender and somehow knowing that you are the other gender.:confused: I'm trying.

So, as I started coming to terms with my own sexuality I thought, eh, gender just isn't important to me... it's about the soul of the person, not the gender. But, then I realized... I'm attracted to women probably 80% of the time and the men I'm attracted to usually like for me to give them manicures and are equally happy watching football and Phantom of the Opera... my hate of gender stereotypes blinded me to this until my friends pointed it out... but that made me think... maybe gender is a factor for me.

So I've been thinking, am I attracted to the things that are nurtured into females, like I believed as a child and teen, or am I attracted to some kind of "female" thing... something you're just born with..?:confused:

So, in all this blabbering I guess I'm not really talking about experiencing your own gender so much as experiencing other people's gender. I'm also not exactly answering or asking any questions... oh well.

[Zerbie]

Zerbie, good questions, and I wish I knew the answers. Let me muttle a little bit and see what comes out. :lol:

When a young girl gets to wear her first dress, what instinct is that?

I don't remember "getting" to wear a first dress, but I can tell you that it didn't come from an instinct. It came from Mom, putting this piece of fabric over me. . . .
Hmm. Come to think of it, I remember walking to kindergarten & every week I switched philosophies: one week I would wear a dress or skirt everyday & explain to the buddy I walked to school with why it was superior to pants. The following week I would wear trousers to school every day & explain to her why it was superior to skirts. I literally alternated with expressing 2 different gendered styles of dress for ALL of kindergarten and first grade. By second grade I knew I would never decide which expression I identified with more & that it would always change.

Is it simply a right of passing? When your breasts start to grow or when you get your period,

Biology. I was happy about it because it meant getting older & I couldn't wait to be adult.

or when you just want to cry

Okay, I've had that a lot. Is that a woman thing? I think it's a human thing. Or is it just a woman thing to acknowledge that you want to?


or do your hair,

Admitted. :) But this "instinct" came quite late in my life. . . in fact, 2 months ago. At the same time, I developed my first real interest in make-up. Puberty strikes post-30?? :p:lol:

when you don't want to play ball and you're not interested in cars.

Never cared about such things, though I adore the weight room, & don't care what a car looks like as long as it rolls. Ooh, but - my car is a girl. I've been told it's a girl-thing to think your car is a girl. :p Her name is Bella, & she doesn't go to the dealer or the body shop, she goes to The Spa.

I understand the difficulty in understanding, and I wish I knew what it was. All I know is my body didn't grow to match my mind.

This is where our experiences just diverge. I will never experience what you've experienced (well, probably not). When asked what sex I am, I take the cue from my body. It's clearly & decidedly female, so that must be what "I" am. For you, there seems to be an "I" inside who knows she's female, ALL THE TIME, & always living in a body that mis-matches with her identity in every way. I will have to rely on imagination to get deep inside that one. And guess that we were intended to be quite different from each other by the one who made us, just like all other creatures differ from one another.


I want hips and breasts, I want to be able to have children (which I will never be able to do). I want a lot of things female, and feminine, but most of all, I just want the body that didn't grow. I feel deformed.

:love::love::love::love::love: My God. Dana! I guess that must be what it takes for someone to go through all the risks & enormous stresses associated with transition. It must need to be that strong. I can't share the experience, but I can understand that intensity behind it. Please let me know how I can be supportive of you & the transgender community in general.

I had a girlfriend once, Angie. She still holds a special place in my heart. She was a TomBoy, and I hope that term isn't offensive to anyone. She did not, and does not identify as a male. She also never wanted to wear dresses, loved baseball, and joined the military. To me, she had a masculine energy that I was attracted to.

I once fell head over heels for a guy who had an incredibly "feminine" energy - at least, to my perception. I kept seeing him as female. Given that he was a straight guy with an athletic background & into weight-lifting etc. it always seemed weird to me that I read his energy as female all the time.

I've read here and in other strings how some of you feel that you just are who you are. Or that you felt more feminine when with women. What is that feminine feeling?

Yes! That's sort of what my original question was getting at! As I recall at the time, it was a sense that I was connecting spiritually with my body AS a female body, and somehow, perhaps. . . universalizing what I felt female *was.* It coincided with a desire to wear dresses all the time & an attempt to grow my hair long.

Or if you just are who you are, couldn't you equally be in love with someone of the opposite anatomy?

Oh trust me, it does!! :lol::lol:

Wouldn't that make life easier.

Actually, erm, no. It REALLY does not. :rolleyes: Instead of the proverbial twice as many dates for Friday night, it was more like, half as many dates for Friday night. By the time I sifted through lesbians who didn't trust bisexuals, men who thought I would be some kind of swinger, men who were homophobic, men looking to prove their manhood by scoring a lesbian, people of either gender who believe bisexuals don't exist. . . .:rolleyes: Very few were left.

Now I'm faced with the problem of where I belong in LGBT activism and whether I'm a member of the community or an "ally," but actually, I seem to be *both* simultaneously. It's great for having insights to every perspective (except the trans one, obviously), but it's lousy for niche-finding.

Are you attracted to the anatomy or are you attracted with what goes along with it (usually :-)?

I can truly report that each time I fell in love (3 times) it was with the total being, as I perceived it: their spiritual being, and the body secondary. Of course, sometimes one can alter the body enough to alter someone's inner self-perception, so perhaps if their bodies were different, their spirits would have manifested differently enough that I may not have responded. There is, in addition to the emotional kinship, an indescribable physical "something" that sparks romantic interest, or it would remain a friendship. And no, I have no idea what that Something is. Only that for me, it can be sparked by a person of either gender, or at least, it could in the past.

I'm truly not trying to be disrespectful. I think it's great that we can ask these questions of ourselves in a respectful and open way.

Me too, and no offense taken! Not even remotely! I hope you are comfortable too - sometimes I get glib & silly b/c otherwise the issues can become very abstract, or very heavy, or seriously academic. So I like to laugh at the ironies & make a little fun. In no way do I discount the seriousness of the import to this discussion. Obviously for me this can always remain philosophical, whereas for you it is an everday concrete thing that has real repercussions in your life. I really appreciate you jumping in to the discussion.

I would like to add, and I'm a little afraid of putting this here, but I think it's necessary. In my community there are differences between Cross Dressers, Drag Queens and Transexuals. I truly don't understand cross dressers or drag queens. I know that I'm not a gay man and I know that dressing in womens clothes doesn't give me sexual pleasure. I know that all of this kind of muddies the waters, but I guess it just is what it is.


Being involved, really involved, in GLBT communities for the past 5 years, I have learned to respect everyone in the GLBT spectrum.

Did I answer any of your questions? I'm not sure. I would be happy to talk more.

I have no idea. I've lost track. :p But I have loved your perspective which has added a lot to this whole discussion. I may never figure myself out now! :D

As to the distinctions between cross-dressing, drag, and transexual: well yeah! I think it's obvious that there are distinctions. I guess it depends how you come at the discussion though. To the far right, you, a gay drag queen, & a cross-dressing straight guy would be all the same thing: to them, a man in a dress. But they discount the *meaning* behind an action/means of self-presentation, that to them looks to be the same thing. It's 3 very different ways of self-expression for quite different reasons and purposes. 2 of them are men costuming, the 3rd is a woman (though they would assuredly dispute us there). I admit I don't "get" cross-dressing either. Do I need to?

When I was in high school I had an evening job ringing a cash register at a CVS store. One night, a person (I have always presumed this person to be a cross-dressing man), entered our store while I was in a back corner shelving items. He was over 6 feet tall, wore a long blue dress, hose, pumps, had a long-haired wig, and full makeup right down to the volumizing mascara. There were 3 of us working that night: me, another cashier, and our supervisor. The other cashier & the supervisor laughed and told me there was a "freak" in the store. They hid in the breakroom watching from behind the mirror/one-way window while I rang up his purchases (more hose, and nailpolish). He was perfectly polite and I felt really bad about the way everyone was carrying on. After he left the store the others came back to make snotty remarks. I just shrugged and said, "It's just clothes."

I don't think we need "get" everything about what everyone wears and so on, in order to respond accordingly to someone's *behavior* without being unduly swayed by outward appearances. I will never forget how guilty I felt that night when I rang up those purchases, like I was part of ridiculing that person just by having colleagues so obviously laughing and carrying on. I just pretended I didn't know that the energy in the room had gone bezerk.

Now the conversation has *really* drifted. . . who's next? :p

[tdogg]

I don't think we need "get" everything about what everyone wears and so on, in order to respond accordingly to someone's *behavior* without being unduly swayed by outward appearances.

I don't think we always need to 'get' something either. Sometimes things just are, people just are. Isn't that what unconditional love is? In part anyway? I don't get you, but I love/care about you. Sometimes, I get you and not crazy about it, but I love/care about you.

It only took me 48 years of my life (all of it so far) to decide that I don't always have to understand. Sometimes it just is. Even things with myself.

And, Z, my cars are always girls too! ;):) They have masculine names, but girls just the same. My little Nissan was the Blue Thunderbolt, and my current car, a dark grey Eclipse, is the Silver Bullet. But definitely a girl!!

[Progo35]

After reading all of this, I am just SO GRATEFUL that the gender I feel concurs with the gender I am biologically. I imagine that that would be very hard. I hope that you continue to find supportive, kind people, Dana.

You know, it's interesting, I've always really liked being a girl? Like, I have never wanted to be a guy...which makes life easier for me...yeah, I don't know, I was just thinking about how being female is part and parcel of who I am...like, it jives with the rest of who I am emotionally, spiritually, historically...

I saw the Gwen Arrajo story on Lifetime and it really put transgenderism in an accessible, realistic (I think) context for me. It also broke my heart: people are cruel. But, despite that, onward and foward, shall we?

[Zerbie]

IAnd, Z, my cars are always girls too! ;):) They have masculine names, but girls just the same. My little Nissan was the Blue Thunderbolt, and my current car, a dark grey Eclipse, is the Silver Bullet. But definitely a girl!!

When I was ten, I named my bicycle that. She was a lady bicycle of course. ;) :)

[DanaH]

When a young girl gets to wear her first dress, what instinct is that? Is it simply a right of passing? When your breasts start to grow or when you get your period, or when you just want to cry or do your hair, when you don't want to play ball and you're not interested in cars. I understand the difficulty in understanding, and I wish I knew what it was. All I know is my body didn't grow to match my mind. I want hips and breasts, I want to be able to have children (which I will never be able to do). I want a lot of things female, and feminine, but most of all, I just want the body that didn't grow. I feel deformed.

I had a girlfriend once, Angie. She still holds a special place in my heart. She was a TomBoy, and I hope that term isn't offensive to anyone. She did not, and does not identify as a male. She also never wanted to wear dresses, loved baseball, and joined the military. To me, she had a masculine energy that I was attracted to.

I've read here and in other strings how some of you feel that you just are who you are. Or that you felt more feminine when with women. What is that feminine feeling? Or if you just are who you are, couldn't you equally be in love with someone of the opposite anatomy? Wouldn't that make life easier. Are you attracted to the anatomy or are you attracted with what goes along with it (usually :-)? I'm truly not trying to be disrespectful. I think it's great that we can ask these questions of ourselves in a respectful and open way.

.................

Did I answer any of your questions? I'm not sure. I would be happy to talk more.

Zerbie, and everyone else. It may be strange to answer one's own post, but I've put some more thought into this one.

I remember watching TV once and there was a young girl on who was enjoying herself (don't remember the event), and at one point she commented how much she loved being a girl. My wife looked at me with the stranges expression on her face and said she didn't know what the girl was talking about, "what does that mean?" I thought to myself, I knew what it meant, how could she not know?

I know that there are people with whom their gender identity matches their anatomy, and their sexual orientation matches what society says is "normal". For them, they don't get us! I've heard that if we allow homosexual marriages, we might as well give dogs and cats the same rights. I can't imagine a more insulting and (literally) a more dehumanizing comment, and I think it was made by some pretty high up in the Catholic Church.

Why are "most" people attracted to the opposite anatomy? Who knows. I absolutely love our community, and by that I mean GLBT and any other letter that belongs there. I so much enjoy the company of my Gay/Lesbian/Bi friends, and I have good friends in each of those communities. I am so fortunated to have them. So, for my friends, I try to understand, but I know I will never completely understand because I don't feel what they feel. And, I know they have the same issue with T people as well.

Why is a Gay or Lesbian attracted to the same anatomy? Should I use the term anatomy or gender? Does anatomy matter? Are Gay's and Lesbians attracted to the personality usually associated with those genders/anatomy's. Why is there often a masculine and feminine side of a gay/lesbian couple? Why are Bi's equally attraced to both genders. I have a very close, and I might even say one of my closest friends, who is bi-, and when I talk to her I see the same things in her eyes that I feel. I know how real it is for her.

So, do you "Feel" like a man or woman? Is gender and anatomy the same thing? If it is, what does that mean for the gay/lesbian community? If it isn't, what does that mean for the gay/lesbian community?

Instinct - I realize some of the things I said above have nothing to do with instinct. They are more rights of passage for a girl as she grows. Men go through similar things. I always felt left out for not getting to wear my easter dress, or my first heals, or pantyhose (in my generation and background, a sign you were a young woman), or experiment with makeup, or wear that short skirt, or bobbie socks, or whatever.... I was so jealous of the other girls, and scared to death the boys would find out.

I don't know how to describe to you what "feeling" like a woman means. Does it mean that I like feminine things, and want to emulate women? I'm sure for some percentage of TG's out there that may be the truth. I can't imagine that any of the GLBT's out there have hard and fast lines defining who they are, and there are a lot of people out there who cross dress for different reasons. For me, it's about my body first. I think I've said here that I feel I'm deformed, although most people looking at me would say I'm a healthy male. How is it I feel like a woman? I know that when I look in the mirror, what I see isn't me. Geez, I guess I just don't kow how to put it into words.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this thread/conversation and some of the wonderful things Zerbie has said. I hope we can help each other understand. Please respond to any of my questions, I would love to hear what you think.

Dana.

[Zerbie]

Zerbie, and everyone else. It may be strange to answer one's own post, but I've put some more thought into this one.

I remember watching TV once and there was a young girl on who was enjoying herself (don't remember the event), and at one point she commented how much she loved being a girl. My wife looked at me with the stranges expression on her face and said she didn't know what the girl was talking about, "what does that mean?" I thought to myself, I knew what it meant, how could she not know?

Why are "most" people attracted to the opposite anatomy? Who knows. I absolutely love our community, and by that I mean GLBT and any other letter that belongs there. I so much enjoy the company of my Gay/Lesbian/Bi friends, and I have good friends in each of those communities. I am so fortunated to have them. So, for my friends, I try to understand, but I know I will never completely understand because I don't feel what they feel. And, I know they have the same issue with T people as well.

This is when I become glad I'm bisexual. I completely get being attracted to the other sex and I completely get being attracted to the same sex. What frustrates me is that I don't have the same deep-down complete understanding of being transgender. Or maybe I do, and it's all much simpler than I'm making it out to be.

Why is a Gay or Lesbian attracted to the same anatomy? Should I use the term anatomy or gender? Does anatomy matter?

$64,000 question. Apparently anatomy does matter, for those who only respond to one sex or the other. UNLESS, as you posit below, personalities come in genders, and some of us are attracted only to male or to female personalities. I disbelieve the latter, b/c I am certain I do not have a gendered personality, therefore I find it difficult to believe that anyone has. And that may be what leaves me asking questions when it comes to transgender.

Are Gay's and Lesbians attracted to the personality usually associated with those genders/anatomy's. Why is there often a masculine and feminine side of a gay/lesbian couple?

But ya find that among straights too. Mostly, people take turns expressing various energies (male vs female, etc).

I have a very close, and I might even say one of my closest friends, who is bi-, and when I talk to her I see the same things in her eyes that I feel.

Which same things?
I know how real it is for her.

So, do you "Feel" like a man or woman? Is gender and anatomy the same thing? If it is, what does that mean for the gay/lesbian community? If it isn't, what does that mean for the gay/lesbian community?

I think the standard sociological response is that gender is socially constructed and therefore gender and anatomy are not identical. Am I up to date on this understanding?


For me, it's about my body first. I think I've said here that I feel I'm deformed, although most people looking at me would say I'm a healthy male. How is it I feel like a woman? I know that when I look in the mirror, what I see isn't me.

:love:
That I understand.

Geez, I guess I just don't kow how to put it into words.

It sounds like this matter is a no-word kind of thing. Wish we had something else at our disposal so we could communicate! Things would get pretty whacky if we tried to convey this using only the little smiley's the forum software provides. :p:love::confused::dove:

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this thread/conversation and some of the wonderful things Zerbie has said. I hope we can help each other understand. Please respond to any of my questions, I would love to hear what you think.

Dana.

I hate that you feel deformed. :( Can you love your body even if it seems the wrong reflection of you?
:dove:

[Progo35]

I feel I am lucky in that my gender "fits" who I am as a person.


The name "Meghan" means simultaneously "Pearl" and "Strong" The best translation of it I found says that in Irish Gaelic, it means, "Pearl, the Strong." For some reason, some translations only include one or the other characteristic, but to me, "pearl" signifies my spirtiual uniqueness as it relates to my relationship with God. "Strong" is something that reminds me that I have inner strength to deal with the problems I face and turn them into opportunities to be an instrument of God's glory.


Being a woman also establishes a connection with the traditional idea that women are a "weaker" sex, which contrasts with the meaning of my name. It is also encouraging: Some people see me as a "weaker mind" because of my learning disorder but history tells me that this is prejudice and can be changed. And, having had to deal with some of my issues has made me spirtiually and or emotionally stronger than some men I know.


Nevertheless, I am a highly sensitive person and I cry pretty easily in front of those that I trust (and sometimes those I don't), and I guess being a female gives me the social freedom to do so without being labled as a "wimp." It's not that I think males who cry are wimps, I just think that being a girl makes it easier for others to understand that about me, right or not.

I do, however, do a lot of "tomboyish" things, like still playing in the stream, catching frogs, playing with mud....which is more childlike at this point that guy-like. Anyway, I think everyone knows what I mean. I think that I just have a more daring personality than some people I know: as a woman, I don't really feel compelled to do things that girls are expected to do in different situations.

So, actually, I think I prefer being a girl. But, that also has to do with the fact that I've only met one guy so far that displays "feminine" tendencies in his dealings with others: he plays with his kids, stays home with them when they're sick, gets teary eyed over injustice, and generally projects an image of gentleness in contrast to some other guys who seem more "macho" if you know what I mean. Some guys I know don't seem to think a lot about things-they just go and do them. But, college is really the first time I've bee around decent guys that weren't indecent when we were growing up together, so I'm becoming more and more aware of differences and similarities as I go along.

I do think that the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" is a fairly accurate representation of how men and women respond to various situations. It helped me a lot with understanding communication with my male aquaintences.

[Jessica_Valdez]

to shed light to the topic........... Transgender comes fron self-discovery. I personally felt as if I was always a female. I would be disgusted by the talk of me getting with another female (pure lesbianism..hehehe). I always saw myself as a female becuase it felt natural for me. It was a part of me. I didnt start going through the trans process until I noticed how female I looked with long hair. I knew from there on, that was who I was most confortable with. It felt natural, as if that was a part of me that was missing all these years. I began dressing in female attire slowly and t then went all out and became full-time. I dont see myself as having any male parts but tag them as female genitalia parts. And I think it all had to do with the way I was brought up not saying I wasnt gay from day one. But I was always around girls and raised by girls. While I was in the womb my mother was hoping for a girl. Well she got one only 18 years later.... hahaha.... But overall it is who I am most confortable with and who I feel represents my inner thoughts and feelings....

[Emproph]

This whole thread is rich.
You know, it's interesting, I've always really liked being a girl? Like, I have never wanted to be a guy...which makes life easier for me...yeah, I don't know, I was just thinking about how being female is part and parcel of who I am...like, it jives with the rest of who I am emotionally, spiritually, historically...

I think that's a genuine appreciation for it. I wake up every day knowing that "I," my gender, is not what my body is. I have no problem being a male, and I have no desire to change to female, it just takes twice as much energy to fill the role so to speak -- personally, in that I am a man and want to look and act like one (because I find that attractive), and "societal" expectation as well -- mostly (also) in regard to looking and acting like your perceived gender. But I am always in my body, never just my body, or just myself.

It's like wearing a very heavy costume. But that's suffering, and that's life. I think anyone who feels, or is deformed would describe the challenge that way.

But so often the stress of the challenge is all confusing, and to that extent the ability to even see it as a challenge becomes impossible. Because it's never seen as something that can be understood.

In that sense, some things can only be understood from outside the challenge itself. But I don't think our "gender confusion" here, is one of those things.

That'll have to be a segue for now.

[Emproph]

Zerbie I’m so grateful that you started this thread.

I have been wondering specifically about your views on this – as you’ve expressed before that you’re equally attracted to both genders, and so I was wondering if you actually *feel* both genders too.

You know my story, but to recap; I am a heterosexual female with a male body, and I have the reincarnational memory to prove it (at least for myself anyway :)). Point being though, I DO *feel* my gender.

But the truth of my femininity would be the same without what I consider to be substantiable proof of it. The only difference it makes is in the confidence to be able to say with a straight face (no pun) that my spiritual gender is female, and my physical gender is male.

Certainty is beauty. Certainty of confusion is even more beautiful.
~~~
As far as gender as energy goes, try:

Male = Positive
Female = Negative

Not in the Good vs Bad, Love vs Evil sense, but break it down and think about it from a physical energy perspective -- with the intent of understanding it from a universal energay perspective.
(I swear to you that typo was unintentional)

Ever played with those refrigerator block magnets, where if you faced two of them together they would resist on one side but smack together on the other? Now take that down to the molecular level, and then hopefully back up to us again in the gender sense.

Aren’t atoms made of protons and electrons?

Protons = Positive
Electrons = Negative

Neutrons don't count, they're neutral. (Or are they bitrons? Hmmm...)

“And we shall create man in our own image” said God
(remind me)

I have a theory. I think that many cisgender homosexuals would admit to being the opposite spiritual gender than they are physically if it weren’t for the social psychological constraints placed on them, often times even from the gay community, ie; it’s not attractive to be feminine when attempting to “attract” a partner, PLUS, the socially accepted, horrendously openly expressed heterosexual male homophobia that exists to compound the issue.

I’m also thinking that is may not be as big of an issue for lesbians, just because women, the feminine spirit/gender, as a whole – tends to be more accepting. Perhaps not as much today (with all the anti-gay sentiment), but it seems that a masculine female would be more accepted in feminine circles more so than a feminine male in male circles.

But the dynamic of rejection remains the same. I realize that many have absolutely no issue with this, but I would still ask, to what extent are some of us “unsure” of our gender distinction specifically because of past beliefs due to social expectation? And to what extent are we aware of the nuances of our own self censorship in this regard?


Ok, I’m no where near done, but I’m throwing this out there for now. :)

[Zerbie]

Thank you Patrick. I don't believe I understood 9 tenths of your post, but will reply to the bits that registered with me, and hope the conversation continues.


Zerbie I’m so grateful that you started this thread.

I have been wondering specifically about your views on this

My views on which part of the conversation, specfically? I know I've written a lot here already, but even in the process and since starting the discussion I am re-considering a lot of what I thought before.

– as you’ve expressed before that you’re equally attracted to both genders, and so I was wondering if you actually *feel* both genders too.

Yes I am attracted to both genders. Not sure how equal the attraction is, it has varied enormously with time, and only for about 2 or 3 years did interest manifest equally -- those were the years during which I felt ready to meet a partner and intentionally cast a very wide net so that I would not have eyes closed to the ideal partner for an arbitrary reason. Overall, despite my "gender doesn't matter" attitude, I've noticed that I tend to respond to the two genders quite differently. I tend to feel more sense of self-recognition around men, and more sense of "other" around women. Not a rule - just a tendency, percentage-wise.

Do I "feel" both genders? I think so. Of course the question I asked when I started this topic was what does "feeling" your gender mean? What does feeling female or male feel like? In part, because I'm trying to figure out if I feel female in ways that I take for granted and cannot be aware of because they've always been there.

The feelings I *am* aware of, gender-wise, pass like moods for me. I have femme moods, non-gendered moods, and (relatively) butch moods. Sometimes Mr. Testosterone just *has* to jump up and smack a doorframe (if he's feeling very teenage).:lol: Sometimes I just *have* to do a yin yoga practice (which for me feels the ultimate in femme) and go pick wildflowers. Mostly, I don't notice any gender.




You know my story, but to recap; I am a heterosexual female with a male body, and I have the reincarnational memory to prove it (at least for myself anyway :)). Point being though, I DO *feel* my gender.

Your past life memories show you being female in ALL of them?

But the truth of my femininity would be the same without what I consider to be substantiable proof of it. The only difference it makes is in the confidence to be able to say with a straight face (no pun) that my spiritual gender is female, and my physical gender is male.


You are very beautiful Emproph; I love you. :love:

Certainty is beauty. Certainty of confusion is even more beautiful.
~~~
As far as gender as energy goes, try:

Male = Positive
Female = Negative


Ever played with those refrigerator block magnets, where if you faced two of them together they would resist on one side but smack together on the other? Now take that down to the molecular level, and then hopefully back up to us again in the gender sense.

Aren’t atoms made of protons and electrons?

Protons = Positive
Electrons = Negative

Neutrons don't count, they're neutral. (Or are they bitrons? Hmmm...)

Lemme nail this down: you posit that gender may be atomic? And that the atomic gender can oppose the anatomical gender? Fascinating theory!!! Have never heard anything like it before! But why not? Interesting. Tell us more. :reading:[/

]

I have a theory. I think that many cisgender homosexuals would admit to being the opposite spiritual gender than they are physically if it weren’t for the social psychological constraints placed on them, often times even from the gay community, ie; it’s not attractive to be feminine when attempting to “attract” a partner, PLUS, the socially accepted, horrendously openly expressed heterosexual male homophobia that exists to compound the issue.

[COLOR="Blue"]NOooo idea. Maybe you could start a poll for this question? (nudge)

he dynamic of rejection remains the same. I realize that many have absolutely no issue with this, but I would still ask, to what extent are some of us “unsure” of our gender distinction specifically because of past beliefs due to social expectation? And to what extent are we aware of the nuances of our own self censorship in this regard?


Ok, I’m no where near done, but I’m throwing this out there for now. :)

What past beliefs would make someone unsure of their gender distinction? and what IS a gender distintion? Do you mean "identification?"

Thanks, keep it comin'. :cool:

[Sherrie Z]

This has been one of my favorite threads since I joined the forum ... : )


A few random thoughts ...

The wide range of experiences and ideas and grey areas described in these posts emphasizes the overall general idea that gender identity as well as sexual orientation are not always so specifically defined ...

There are as many definitions and experiences and variations related to gender as there are people ... most people lean strongly toward a given orientation or identity, but the lines aren't really that clearly drawn ...

We have specific definitions like "gay" or "straight" ... but we also have "bi" and everything in between in varying degrees ... with most people identifying one way or another for most or all of their lives, but with some shifting their identity over time ... our actual orientation is not determined by our external physical gender, but by something else internal ...

We have specific definitions like "male" or "female" but we also have "trans" and everything in between in varying degrees ... with most people identifying one way or another for most or all of their lives, but with some shifting their identity over time ... our actual gender identity is not determined by our external physical gender, but by something else internal ... and in some cases, even external physical gender is not clear at birth ... and in some cases, physical gender is eventually changed to more closely match internal identity ...

Just as in nature ... the outdoor world, and in other species ... with humans, variety and variation are the norm ... there is no actual norm per se, just a norm that variety is always present ... and something to be appreciated and celebrated ...

Social pressures and expectations and assumptions can inform or interfere, but what is so impressive is that even in the face of massive social pressures, even pressures that are in some part internalized ... sooner or later the actual true spirit of a person so often appears and survives against all odds ...

This process is lifelong, with more and more of our actual layers surfacing over time ... as our definitions expand ... as our assumptions are examined and re-examined ... and as we challenge social pressures and expectations ... to reveal more and more of who we are individually, and who we can be collectively ...

And as with gender identity and orientation ... the same goes for our spiritual and political and cultural and physical and social and collective identities ... there's always another layer of truth and new experience just hanging around somewhere waiting to be discovered ...

We get to, and we should, make our own definitions. And sometimes we get to change them as needed or wanted. And sometimes we even get to have fun with it too.