American Baptists

[Sagebrush Dan]

Hi. Newbie here. I was raised Conservative Baptist, which is a little to the right of Hitler on social issues, and was taught that American Baptists are the epitome of evil. So, naturally I want to go to an American Baptist church.

I have heard rumors that American Baptists are affirming. Is that true? Does it vary from church to church?

I have done a quick check through to see if there are any threads on this already, but couldn't tell from the thread titles. Any help would help.

Thanks.

[keltic63]

I searched the American Baptist website, but the term "homosexuality" doesnt even get a hit. You might check this site: Welcoming and Affirming Baptists (http://www.wabaptists.org/)
if you can't find an American Baptist church, you may find something that is suitable through the site.

[andrewlittle]

The core polity of the ABC sets precedence on the local congregation - it is relatively autonomous from denominational control.

That being said, the offical stand of the ABC is "hate the sin, love the sinner."

From the ABC's website http://www.abc-usa.org/documents/ABCUSA%20Responses%20Actions%20%20%20Issue%20of%20 Homosexuality.pdf
NOVEMBER 2005: The General Board voted “To amend the document entitled We Are American Baptists by adding the following statement to the section A Biblical People: Who submit to the teaching of Scripture that God's design for sexual intimacy places it within the context of marriage between one man and one woman, and acknowledge that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Biblical teaching.”
There are exceptions that belong to an open and affirming group of ABC churches, but most of them have Cooperating Church status - not full membership in the ABC. I am personally familiar with one in Granville, Ohio, and I know that there paassage through the ABC denominational process has been ugly and vitriolic, at best.

You will need to check out individual ABC churches to determine their level of tolerance or embrace. Good luck and Godspeed in that search.

[davidb]

Dan,

I just posted a response to you're question over at "hi, my name is..." I was actually raised GARBC, and my church thought that the conservative baptists were liberal. HA! Thankfully, these forums are a friendlier place.

David

[keltic63]

The core polity of the ABC sets precedence on the local congregation - it is relatively autonomous from denominational control.

That being said, the offical stand of the ABC is "hate the sin, love the sinner."

From the ABC's website http://www.abc-usa.org/documents/ABCUSA%20Responses%20Actions%20%20%20Issue%20of%20 Homosexuality.pdf

There are exceptions that belong to an open and affirming group of ABC churches, but most of them have Cooperating Church status - not full membership in the ABC. I am personally familiar with one in Granville, Ohio, and I know that there paassage through the ABC denominational process has been ugly and vitriolic, at best.

You will need to check out individual ABC churches to determine their level of tolerance or embrace. Good luck and Godspeed in that search.

In looking at the Welcoming and Affirming Baptist churches listed on the WABaptist website, many of them appear to have affiliations with more than one denomination. The closest one to me, Pittsburgh, is actually associated with at least 3 denominations that may or may not see eye-to-eye theologically. I suspect that this particular church functions much as in independent church. I would assume the same of some others listed on that page.

even in my own denomination that is considered somewhat progressive, not all congregations are open and affirming; many of the individual churches look downright evangelical. My own home church is not "officially" open and affirming (there is a process) however, I have not felt unwelcome there since I came out (they all know, believe me!)

[kara speltz]

Hi. Newbie here. I was raised Conservative Baptist, which is a little to the right of Hitler on social issues, and was taught that American Baptists are the epitome of evil. So, naturally I want to go to an American Baptist church.

I have heard rumors that American Baptists are affirming. Is that true? Does it vary from church to church?

I have done a quick check through to see if there are any threads on this already, but couldn't tell from the thread titles. Any help would help.

Thanks.

I have a very dear friend who is an American Baptist minister in Minneapolis. He's heterosexual but is one of our staunchest allies. His sister is gay and they actually delayed his ordination because he wouldn't condemn LGBTs. But ultimately he did get ordained thru some means that I never quite understood. Like Jimmy Creech, he is one of those brave heterosexuals who will risk it all to stand with us. Definately check out AWAB (www.wabaptists.org) to find a welcoming baptist church.

Kara

[Eugene]

I was raised Southern Baptist but started attending an American Baptist church when I came out. Actually, the church I started attending began as a Southern Baptist church but was thrown out of the local association when they hired a female pastor in the mid-80's. Then they became an "affirming" church in the 90's.

The pastor told me that American Baptist churches range from conservative to liberal. The one I attended was more than liberal, and I don't attend anymore. I have always considered "liberal" to be the same as "modernist", meaning an emphasis on reason and rational thought as opposed to faith in the supernatural. I would be quite comfortable with that. But what I found in this American Baptist church wasn't rationalism. It was gnosticism/mysticism/religious pluralism. I decided that I wasn't going to discard my spiritual and intellectual convictions just to be "affirmed" as a gay Christian -- by people whose beliefs I don't even consider to be Christian. So I don't attend anymore.

So yes, you can find affirming American Baptist churches. But you might discover that they are Baptist in name only. You might do just as well attending a Unitarian church or becoming a Buddhist, if you're comfortable with that. Pardon the sarcasm.

[Daniel]

So yes, you can find affirming American Baptist churches. But you might discover that they are Baptist in name only. You might do just as well attending a Unitarian church or becoming a Buddhist, if you're comfortable with that. Pardon the sarcasm.

Are Baptists sitting on cushions these days- meditating? ;) :lol:

:D


:pray:

[Eugene]

Well, I suppose so. There was a meditation group in that church when I left. Never attended, so I can't tell you what they sat on. ;)

[Daniel]

Well, I suppose so. There was a meditation group in that church when I left. Never attended, so I can't tell you what they sat on. ;)

One reason I joined this forum is because one of the organizers of the ERide last year is a Buddhist. That made me feel welcome here, as someone who was formerly Assemblies of God and has learned a lot from Buddhist thought and practice.

If I had thought that only those with the right brand or expression of Christianity were allowed to be members here, well....that would be a different story.

[Eugene]

Well, I hope you're not misinterpreting me. I don't have a problem with Buddhists. (And I practice yoga, BTW, so I'm not the typical evangelical -- aside from being gay.)

But when I attend a Baptist church, I expect adherence to traditional Baptist theology -- or at least traditional Christian theology. I don't think religious pluralism, new age stuff, or eastern mysticism qualifies. Nor does the teaching of tarot (which occurred in the AB church I attended) or the idea that Christianity is about enlightenment and self-deification rather than personal salvation (which was also taught in the Sunday school class I attended). I expect a Christian church to adhere to the Apostle's Creed, at a minimum.

[u-dog]

I have always considered "liberal" to be the same as "modernist", meaning an emphasis on reason and rational thought as opposed to faith in the supernatural.

I have always considered myself to be a "liberal" or "progressive" Christian but have never thought of reason and rational thought as being "opposed" to faith in the supernatural.

I accept the theory of evolution to be a rational and logical explanation of how life in general and human life in particular came to be the way it is, but I also believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. I believe that the big bang theory to be consistant with the facts as I understand them but have no problem with Mary being a virgin at the time of Jesus' conception (though, sorry Pablo, Mary and Joseph DEFINATELY "did it" after jesus was born!:lol:)

My position as a "Liberal" is that God doesn't lie -- either in the Bible or in the Creation, so if there SEEMS to be a discrepancy between revelation and reason its because we have misunderstood one or the other. Usually its the Bible which we have misunderstood.

Dave

[kara speltz]

Well, I hope you're not misinterpreting me. I don't have a problem with Buddhists. (And I practice yoga, BTW, so I'm not the typical evangelical -- aside from being gay.)

But when I attend a Baptist church, I expect adherence to traditional Baptist theology -- or at least traditional Christian theology. I don't think religious pluralism, new age stuff, or eastern mysticism qualifies. Nor does the teaching of tarot (which occurred in the AB church I attended) or the idea that Christianity is about enlightenment and self-deification rather than personal salvation (which was also taught in the Sunday school class I attended). I expect a Christian church to adhere to the Apostle's Creed, at a minimum.

Dear Eugene: I consider myself a Christian. A Roman Catholic Christian to be exact, but I also have to acknowledge that my spirituality is extremely eclectic and I have benefited deeply from a number of other spiritual practicies. I think that just about all spiritual practices lead to the same path. I have studied, Wicca, Huna, Yoruban, the teachings of Ram Das, as well as the spiritual beliefs of "Seth," which are contained in "The Nature of Personal Reality." All of these currently form the basis of my spiritual practice and understanding.

They blend beautifully within my own daily spiritual practice. I find that there really is no conflict in any of them. Early in my spiritual seeking Ram Das said something very wise, about take what resonates with you and let the rest go.

That's what I have done, and it has truly been a blessing to me. Sometimes the "need to be right," can create blinders to what God is trying to teach us. God is so much bigger than we give Him/Her credit for.

kara

[Daniel]

Well, I hope you're not misinterpreting me. I don't have a problem with Buddhists. (And I practice yoga, BTW, so I'm not the typical evangelical -- aside from being gay.)

But when I attend a Baptist church, I expect adherence to traditional Baptist theology -- or at least traditional Christian theology. I don't think religious pluralism, new age stuff, or eastern mysticism qualifies. Nor does the teaching of tarot (which occurred in the AB church I attended) or the idea that Christianity is about enlightenment and self-deification rather than personal salvation (which was also taught in the Sunday school class I attended). I expect a Christian church to adhere to the Apostle's Creed, at a minimum.

I'm glad to hear that you don't have a problem with Buddhists, however, since you mention 'enlightenment' and 'self-deification' in the same breath, I wonder if the subject, rather than the person, is your concern. You may know that Buddhism has teachings regarding enlightenment, but it would be a gross misunderstanding to characterize them as 'self-deification'. Perhap you did not mean to imply this, but the lack of clarification certainly makes me wonder if your views on faith are sectarian in expression, and exclude more than they include.

I would hope for the later, for the simple reason that gay persons have enough difficulty dealing with conservative orthodoxy to only encounter the same from one of their own.

[pnggrad79]

University Baptist Church in Austin, Texas was a Southern Baptist church that was kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention for ordaining two gay men in the late 90's. Their pastor, Larry Bethune, was unwavering in his stand on the ordination of these two men. Their church suffered a drop in attendance, but welcomed scores of gay and lesbian members. I believe now they are associated with the AWAB and American Baptists, but someone (Nathan maybe) correct me if I am wrong.

I grew up Southern Baptist but now I am non denominational, attending an MCC church here in Houston, called Resurrection MCC. Hope that helps. Where do you live, Newbie? :)

[Sagebrush Dan]

Hi there,
I have been away a few days, so haven't had a chance to respond.

I live in Portland, Oregon. I have been told via PM that there are a couple affirming Baptists in Seattle. I heard a few years ago that there was one in suburbia here. I didn't attend back then cuz I was dealing with PTSD and agoraphobia and all that wonderful stuff from Vietnam and getting kicked out for being gay (the VA has at least been sympathetic to it, and let me know that they believe that the homophobia is primarily responsible for the PTSD). Anyway, I digress.

There was a particular doctrine in the Charismatics that I find offensive (I won't be mentioning it here, cuz I don't like to start forest fires, let alone get caught up in one). I love the emphasis on the Holy Spirit, I love speaking in tongues, and getting slain in the Spirit is a major kick in the pants. I love their form of Praise and Worship and, being a pianist, I love playing in the Spirit. I just can't deal with that one doctrine and the paranoia that doctrine causes. Neither do I believe that there is a demon for virtually every affliction that we have. So, if I could find some affirming Charismatic Baptists, then that would be ideal.

I am a little gunshy right now because I had tolerated a very spiritually abusive gay charismatic church for about 17 years. It was rather cultish and, I'm ashamed to admit, I got caught up in it as well. We believed God was going to do a great move in our church and we were going to be bigger than the Toronto blessing. I stayed in the abusive situation because I believed that to be true. The leadership treated everyone like crap and if anyone disagreed with them, we were disagreeing with God because God was going to do a mighty move there. I finally got fed up with the nonsense and left, opting out of "God's great move". I started going to another gay charismatic church that was made up of people that either left the other church or were thrown out. The original church finally collapsed and is now gone.
But, the same "bad Christian, bad Christian" mentality is in the new one. The current pastors practice love more than any other pastor I've seen, but they preach law and more law and doctrine, and "aren't people stupid." I'm fed up with that crap.

There are churches here that preach wonderfully meaty sermons of hope and love and joy, but they are also on the forefront of the anti-gay ballot measures that plague our state every couple years.

ARGH!!!!!!!!

That is all (for now).

[Zerbie]

Hi


I didn't attend back then cuz I was dealing with PTSD and agoraphobia and all that wonderful stuff from Vietnam and getting kicked out for being gay (the VA has at least been sympathetic to it, and let me know that they believe that the homophobia is primarily responsible for the PTSD).

I'm sorry to hear of this. I've dealt with PTSD also (very different cause) and know all too well how awful it can be. Sounds like it may have resolved for you - hope so.

being a pianist, I love playing in the Spirit.

Wonderul! There are many musicians here on the forum. I'm a singer. Used to play piano very well, but stopped about 15 years ago for lack of access to piano, and lack of time back then. I'm still surprised at how much my "chops" have deteriorated - I still think I play at the level I was when I quit.


istian" mentality is in the new one. The current pastors practice love more than any other pastor I've seen, but they preach law and more law and doctrine, and "aren't people stupid." I'm fed up with that crap.

There are churches here that preach wonderfully meaty sermons of hope and love and joy, but they are also on the forefront of the anti-gay ballot measures that plague our state every couple years.

ARGH!!!!!!!!

That is all (for now).

Glad that you are searching for a more suitable "home." Wishing you luck at finding the right place at the right time. :pray:

[Sagebrush Dan]

Thank you, Zerbie.
Yeah, the agoraphobia is pretty much gone, thanks to EMDR therapy and Zoloft. The EMDR cure was accidental — we were focusing on my fear of failure.
The Zoloft came after my third heart attack where I died five times. They were afraid the nasty aftereffects of the NDE (panic attacks) would kill me, so I went on it. One of the angels that visited me after that NDE experience pulled absolutely no punches on getting rid of stress — I didn't think she'd ever shut up (didn't realize she was an angel until she left; I thought she was just some crusty mean nurse). The latest reports on stress and heart attacks match exactly what she said a few years before those reports. So, I'm on Zoloft. Wish I wasn't, but there you have it.
EMDR therapy is a major hoot. No one knows why it works, but it does.

Oh about the former church. One of the pastors is now a male prostitute here in town. Really gross to remember him preaching what he did, and then to now go on his website which leaves nothing to the imagination.

[Daniel]

Thank you, Zerbie.
Yeah, the agoraphobia is pretty much gone, thanks to EMDR therapy and Zoloft. The EMDR cure was accidental — we were focusing on my fear of failure.
The Zoloft came after my third heart attack where I died five times. They were afraid the nasty aftereffects of the NDE (panic attacks) would kill me, so I went on it. One of the angels that visited me after that NDE experience pulled absolutely no punches on getting rid of stress — I didn't think she'd ever shut up (didn't realize she was an angel until she left; I thought she was just some crusty mean nurse). The latest reports on stress and heart attacks match exactly what she said a few years before those reports. So, I'm on Zoloft. Wish I wasn't, but there you have it.
EMDR therapy is a major hoot. No one knows why it works, but it does.

Oh about the former church. One of the pastors is now a male prostitute here in town. Really gross to remember him preaching what he did, and then to now go on his website which leaves nothing to the imagination.

Wow Dan. You've got one heck of a fascinating story. Seriously. From Vietnam to NDE's and an angel, and a charismatic leader who turns out to be a sex-worker. You couldn't make this stuff up. If you are ever interested in writing memoir, I'd say you have PLENTY of material. :D

I'm glad someone here PM'd you with some places to investigate. :cool: Wishing you all the best in your quest for peace, joy and fellowship.