Feeling a little resentment

[bsnyder83]

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

[tdogg]

I think the problem is that people feel one must be married and have children to be normal. There's nothing wrong with having fun (i.e., gay pride parade). For those who see a person having a good time once and then deciding all gays and lesbians are that, well, that is short-sight and narrow-minded, and that's what we need to change.

Personally, I don't advocate people ceasing to have a good time and express themselves just so the short-sighted and narrow-minded can change their minds. Diversity is a gift, we are ALL different and we should celebrate that, not cease being ourselves and on occasion a bit out of ourselves.

Whether we are settled down with a spouse/life partner and have a family, or whether we want to get out and join in every gay pride parade we can, we are entitled to each and every right afforded to any other hetero person in this country.

Not sure I've officialy met you bsnyder83 - if not and you are new, a huge welcome to the forums here! I'll search around for your intro post if there is one. Hope you hang out and we can get to know each other better!!

Tdogg

[antonyh]

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

It is hard to know how to reply...my partner and I are the most boring gay couple alive. We like each other, stay home and cook and clean. My partner is writing a fantasy novel and I like to read poetry. We hate clubbing (although that was not always true of me). People know me.

That said, I do value the diversity that manifests itself in our beautiful and sometimes naughty subculture. If people like me marched in the pride parade, I am not sure we've have 400,000 people attending in Chicago. I think I will march with the ACLU this year with their silly liberty hats.

As far as men taking on the feminine, I highly support that. Men in our culture devalue the feminine and that is unfortunate. There is this delightful African American guy at Pot Belly's that wears eye shadow to work. You have to admit that it helps us all get a little closer to our feminine sides.

[Daniel]

My guy and I are pretty boring too. And the people we know are pretty boring as well. :lol::lol::lol: No late night club dates for us. I need my beauty sleep!

Speaking frankly, I don't think we don't have equal rights because gay people are too queer (and that's a word that has been taken back btw). Rather, my sense is that we don't have our rights because of religious oppression. Get that out of the way and equal rights are a nobrainer.

[BenL]

Straight people can be stereotyped, too, but because their orientation is generally accepted, the stereotypes rarely get attributed to that. But, my heavens, have you ever seen footage of a Carnival (Rio) or Mardi Gras (New Orleans) parade. How about some of the costumes and antics the straights put on for those parades? Or are they a little less than straight just for a day? Is it OK for them to have fun and camp it up, but not us?

I see your point. Television always goes for the outlandish. It makes for better visuals. As you say, how boring would it be if we all paraded in our everyday dress? Small-town Pride parades have a lot more of the "normal" looking folks in them. But just remember it's the people who push at the margins who keep the middle open for all of us.

All of what you say is why it is so important for more of the GLBT community to come out of hiding, so that the rest of the world can see that we're just their neighbors and that we share so many of their goals and dreams.

[marutidas]

Well this is an interesting thread,
on the one hand we have people judging us for what they see on TV and other media sources. On the other, defining the "NORMAL" gay couple.
Normal is all relative, for me, is being a spiritually ecclectic Gothic Drag Queen/ Leather person So to say Homebody Gay is Normal when it may actually be a small portion of the Gay community (Not knowing if that is the truth since no survey has ever been done.) From what I know of the Gay community here in Albuquerque, many of us like to just have a good time.(I don't go out much because I have to work at night.) It has been said Albuquerque is good for couples, having known many commited couples go out on the town.

Just set the record striaight, I have not met a single "NORMAL" person EVER!

[Alecto]

You contradict yourself a bit. You say that all the leather daddies and drag queens and dykes on bikes deserve equal rights, but that the reason they don't have them is because they're leather daddies and drag queens and dykes on bikes. Do you see a disconnect there? We shouldn't have to normalize to please straights. I'll say that again: We deserve rights, regardless of what we do for entertainment, or how we get to work, or what we wear. Trying to be "just like them" isn't going to change anything, because at the end of the day, we're still different because we're gay. Semantically, I make a distinction between the heterosexual / GLB dichotomy (and the cisgender and heteronormative / GLBT dichotomy) and the "Straight / Queer" dichotomy. I think there's a major issue when the organizations and people who are representing us show only white lesbians who move to the suburbs to have 2 kids and 3.5 dogs, because the message is that "hey, look! There's some of us that deserve rights." By leaving out all the other folks, there's this....shame. "We're not associated with them; just ignore them; they're not the ones who're gonna be using the rights anyway". Whereas two loving people who go to the bathhouses (safely) every weekend deserve the option of marriage, (and safety from housing and employment discrimination) every bit as much as Straight people.


Honestly...this is a major pet peeve of mine, and I feel that I'm not...particularly clear about what I'm trying to say, but (hopefully) I don't think I've been offensive either.

[keltic63]

What is NORMAL?

really, do we know? can anyone say what it is?

I may end up rambling here, but let me attempt to lay out a few thoughts.
No one is normal. I think if we held up anyone as an example of normal then examined them throroughly, we'd find something that is definitely "not normal" about them, whether they were straight, gay, or somewhere in between!
Straight people have plenty of stereotypes about them, but their sexuality isn't usually part of the stereotype, and if it is, then that part of their stereotype is usually praised: Playboy bunnies, Sex kittens, Macho Casanovas, etc. STRAIGHT sexual stereotyping plays well to the masses in a positive way (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) especially if it is a straight male out to conquer as many women as possible.
Gay sexual stereotyping does not play as well. obviously. However, I think that the displays we often see at Pride parades stem from the desire to make the straight world uncomfortable. We're different and suffer for it; Some segments of the lgbt community take that and run, owning their differences instead of accepting the shame that the straight world would heap upon them (us) for being who we are.

One thing the straight world doesn't talk about: the number of married couples involved in the swinging lifestyle. why not? well, for one thing, they don't want their sex lives to be public knowledge. hmmm, that's interesting. not to mention that people involved in the "lifestyle" as THEY call it, are recruited, and often recruit other couples to join them. there's gotta be a stereotype there somewhere. And are these the people who get to determine whether or not I deserve equal rights?

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with everything I see at a Pride parade. But then, I'm not comfortable with everything I see in the straight world, and that's the world I get to look at every day. So the hetero's see 30 seconds of some drag queen twirling a baton on the nightly news once a year in June? if that's how they form their opinion of who we are, then they are pathetic, and certainly must not know any lgbt people. Of course, we could do the same and judge all straight people by what we see in the news (pedophiles, thieves, hookers, baby-killers, wife-beaters....) Just remember, the news shows need to sell time to advertisers; showing pflag and HRC is not going to keep the viewers titillated enough to watch the upcoming commercials.

[Daniel]

Well this is an interesting thread,
on the one hand we have people judging us for what they see on TV and other media sources. On the other, defining the "NORMAL" gay couple.
Normal is all relative, for me, is being a spiritually ecclectic Gothic Drag Queen/ Leather person.

Never said us gay boys are normal....I said we were boring..a very different thing! :D And I was trying to be funny actually.

I agree with you. Normal is relative. And 'normal', I think, depends a great deal on where you live, and in what context one lives. It also depends on who is doing the defining.

What comes to mind here is the bru-ha-ha over Richard Gere's kissing of an Indian female movie star in India. Here- kissing in public is considered normal (for straight people anyway). In India? No way. I also have friends who live in New Dehli and they tell me that, as for their being a gay couple, it's accepted, just not talked about. That's considered 'normal'. In that, India and the US are somewhat alike! (Don't Ask Dont' Tell)


Likewise, I saw a guy on the street yesterday who was wearing gold lame shoes, a pink blazer, white pants and some pretty fantastic bangles and beads. He looked great- and no one batted an eye. Likewise, more than a few people here in NYC wear all black (such a cliche...but there you have it...you know...the downtown artist type), and if you plopped them down in Kansas they would not be 'normal', because the context would be radically different.

All this aside, I'm for everyone being who they are an wanna be. I don't have any assimilationist dreams. Diversity is beautiful.

[Zerbie]

Hi bsnyder. Welcome. :) Theater? I'm a singer myself - lots of opera, some musical theater way back when. Pleased to meetcha. :cool:

Folks, I'm not sure the OP is saying we should all assimilate - I think he is griping about the perpetuation of stereotypes in the media and mainstream as being ALL that gay (or LB or T) is.

There's all kinda stuff in both the straight world and the gay world that I personally just don't "get." That doesn't mean it defines an entire group. I think the frustration should be more rightly placed with those straight folks who just jump right to the assumption that leather-drag-queen-glitter-dry-humping is all that anybody gay is about. :rolleyes: That's a ridiculous conclusion to make - but somehow there it is, some folks actually think that. To assume so without a moment's thought that not EVERY gay person dresses in glitter and thongs on a regular basis is simple-minded at best. The fault lies more with the lack of education of those who would believe such, than with a guy who dresses in drag for a pride parade.

The pride parades attract all types, and all kinds of folk who are VERY ordinary 9 to 5ish, blend-in-with-the-mainstream types will take their ONE DAY to dress up, let their hair down, and maybe look or act outrageous. For one day.

Part of the gay pride tradition is celebrating having the courage and freedom to express the more maligned parts of one's personality. Pride began as a commemoration of Stonewall, and it was the butch lesbians, the drag queens, the transgender, and the "feminine" gay men who were right in the thick of things at Stonewall, expressing the most courage. We may not fit into any of those descriptions ourselves, but we owe them a debt for having had the courage to make it possible for us to live a life vastly better than the hell they endured in the 1960s.

[Daniel]

Part of the gay pride tradition is celebrating having the courage and freedom to express the more maligned parts of one's personality. Pride began as a commemoration of Stonewall, and it was the butch lesbians, the drag queens, the transgender, and the "feminine" gay men who were right in the thick of things at Stonewall, expressing the most courage. We may not fit into any of those descriptions ourselves, but we owe them a debt for having had the courage to make it possible for us to live a life vastly better than the hell they endured in the 1960s.

Well Spoke! Well Spoke!

We stand on their shoulders. Every one of us.

[dsdrane]

Harrumph!

:D

[Sagebrush Dan]

I agree with the original poster on a few points. In particular, the public near-nudity and the public simulated sex acts. I live in Oregon, where the religious right is constantly trying to strip us of our rights or of any dignity. And what is their ammo? Not the drag queens, not the people freely expressing whatever or whoever they are.
What they use against us is the guys in thongs parading down Broadway (the one in Portland) juggling dildoes, or the pride parades around the country with public nudity and simulated sex during the parade. And it hurts us. We have no way to fight back on that one.

One sixties radical said that Reagan got elected in 1980 because the teens in the 60s insisted on their right to have sex in the public parks. In the context of the documentary where he said that, it made perfect sense. I believe in freedom of expression and people dressing just as wildly as they want to. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the public indecency and the fact that it plays right into the propaganda machine of the religious right.
I'm tired of sacrificing my rights as a boring human being so that a few exhibitionists can get their jollies at my expense.

[Alecto]

Sage...I can understand that. But at the same time, I'm not in a position to understand that. The pride parade in my city is...apparantly pretty tame. Do we have dancers showing lots of skin on floats? Yes. But no sex toys, and usually no overt sex acts. So...I haven't seen any of the more outrageous things that people complain about (and yet, in my city, people still complain about them and won't go to the parade).

At the same time, I think it makes some kind of sense for people to be very public and "in your face" about sexuality. It's sex that's used against us because it's sex acts that are aversive to people. That's how you get some people who say things like "it's fine that you're gay but do you have to be SO gay"; they don't want to be reminded and they sure as hell don't want to see PDA. What I'm getting at is that it does make a certain kind of sense to try to reclaim that part of our lives. It's been used as a weapon against us, and so some of us try to use it as a weapon against them. It ties in, somewhat, with the Queer Nation Manifesto: "Every time we fuck, we win". Am I in favor of such? I don't think so (I mean, ideally, we wouldn't need weapons at all, right?). But I completely understand it, and it does go a little beyond "a few exhibitionists getting their jollies at your expense".

[kimmyd]

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

I think that, by and large, gays are being taken more seriously--despite the kinds of parades/displays you described. The individuals that do that don't take themselves seriously enough, nor do they realize how they hurt the gay community with their actions: continuing that only makes us look 'silly' and will keep people from accepting us as just ordinary people. It's a shame. A gay parade with same-sex families and couples acting more apporopriately would much better serve the cause. Keep the rainbows, but do away with the glitter and humping, replace them with serious gay parents, strollers and banners that say, "We know what family love is too" might be better and mean a lot more.

But that's just my take.

[tdogg]

All this aside, I'm for everyone being who they are an wanna be. I don't have any assimilationist dreams. Diversity is beautiful.

Amen! :agree::rainbow: Diversity is a beautiful thing!

"Normal" would mean someone has to define it, and if you ask 20 people to define it, you would likely get 20 different definitions. So let's just be ourselves (even if it means being half-naked at a gay pride parade!). :love:

[antonyh]

Part of the gay pride tradition is celebrating having the courage and freedom to express the more maligned parts of one's personality. Pride began as a commemoration of Stonewall, and it was the butch lesbians, the drag queens, the transgender, and the "feminine" gay men who were right in the thick of things at Stonewall, expressing the most courage. We may not fit into any of those descriptions ourselves, but we owe them a debt for having had the courage to make it possible for us to live a life vastly better than the hell they endured in the 1960s.

Amen to that. I just came across a lovely photo album put together by the extreme right about a youth pride day in Mass. They are getting so good at this that we can leave our cameras at home and let them document our events. I just see a celebration of courage and freedom. Bsny, who cares what these people think. Seriously.

http://www.massresistance.org/index.html

[Freespirited]

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?


My friend I hear you and can understand your point! I don't think your post is not degrading what is to be gay! but rather you are expressing concern and shame of other gays whose exhibitionism are sending the wrong message to those who have no clue of what is to be gay!! and FREAKS, EXHIBITIONISTS, SEXUAL PREVERTS WE ARE NOT!! your concern is quite justifiable in that if we want to be respected by society we should first and foremost show some self-respect, and most importantly show the world that we can also be normal, respectable, and decent members of society. I can assure you that human beings are visual creatures wether we like to admit it or not! is like this you see...if two people with the same qualifications are interviewed for a job, but one is not appropiately dressed more then likely his attention getting attire is not going to get him the respect and credibility he needs to get the job! am I getting my point across!? acting normal have no association with being heterosexual...acting normal is a matter of being sensitive to others different from us, and the only way to do that is by being consciencious of people's feelings, and most of all showing self-respect to ourselves.


LEANDRO

[antonyh]

My friend I hear you and can understand your point! I don't think your post is not degrading what is to be gay! but rather you are expressing concern and shame of other gays whose exhibitionism are sending the wrong message to those who have no clue of what is to be gay!! and FREAKS, EXHIBITIONISTS, SEXUAL PREVERTS WE ARE NOT!! your concern is quite justifiable in that if we want to be respected by society we should first and foremost show some self-respect, and most importantly show the world that we can also be normal, respectable, and decent members of society. I can assure you that human beings are visual creatures wether we like to admit it or not! is like this you see...if two people with the same qualifications are interviewed for a job, but one is not appropiately dressed more then likely his attention getting attire is not going to get him the respect and credibility he needs to get the job! am I getting my point across!? acting normal have no association with being heterosexual...acting normal is a matter of being sensitive to others different from us, and the only way to do that is by being consciencious of people's feelings, and most of all showing self-respect to ourselves.


LEANDRO

Last time I checked we were already on the margins. I am not sure how putting on a suit and tie for the majority is going to "help the cause". The problem is homophobia. It is a heart disease that operates quite independently from any offense caused by leather pants and dry humping on a pride parade float.

A lot of the "acting out" you see in our community is really about surviving. That night of clubbing may be the only place on earth a gay man can be totally himself. The pride parade is about visibility. The mannerisms are about liberation.

So let's not judge our community. We get enough of that already.;)

[Alecto]

Last time I checked we were already on the margins. I am not sure how putting on a suit and tie for the majority is going to "help the cause". The problem is homophobia. It is a heart disease that operates quite independently from any offense caused by leather pants and dry humping on a pride parade float.

A lot of the "acting out" you see in our community is really about surviving. That night of clubbing may be the only place on earth a gay man can be totally himself. The pride parade is about visibility. The mannerisms are about liberation.

So let's not judge our community. We get enough of that already.;)

Said much more nicely than I probably would have. Thanks.

[Alecto]

I think that, by and large, gays are being taken more seriously--despite the kinds of parades/displays you described. The individuals that do that don't take themselves seriously enough, nor do they realize how they hurt the gay community with their actions: continuing that only makes us look 'silly' and will keep people from accepting us as just ordinary people. It's a shame. A gay parade with same-sex families and couples acting more apporopriately would much better serve the cause. Keep the rainbows, but do away with the glitter and humping, replace them with serious gay parents, strollers and banners that say, "We know what family love is too" might be better and mean a lot more.

But that's just my take.

First, PLEASE don't make presumptions about the self-esteem of these people. Your experience is not theirs. I think a lot of the people described take themselves very seriously. Gender nonconformity, or, hell, ANY of the nonconformity described could be (and often is) a very conscious political decision. And they would very likely say that by staying in your quiet little life, by assimilating, and by changing your behavior to "normalize", YOU are doing a great disservice to the GLBT community. By "straightening" (recognizing a difference between the "straight vs. Queer" dichotomy and the "heteronormative Vs. not" dichotomy) the image, you send the message that "we don't want anything to do with those queers over there. They'd make excellent targets for your religious, institutional, and individual attacks, because we don't think they're really as worthy of defending". And that's unacceptable. Why should we have to be "ordinary" people in order to be accepted? WHy can't they except us as "slightly different" people?

As for a parade with a bunch of non-heterosexual Straight families (see above for semantics involved with "straight"), let's face it: that's boring. Furthermore, the parade in question is supposed to be to celebrate the Stonewall Riots. The second word in there is RIOTS. These weren't people who wanted to just not make waves, sit back, and fit in. These were people who were sick of being treated as sub-human, and who held onto their differences while fighting back. Furthermore, this parade is for US, not for them. If they don't like what they see, then they don't have to come. That said, I also get grumpy when more mainstream GLBT people complain about the parade beeing to Queer, but then using that as an excuse not to go (whereas the more logical action would be to show up, get involved, and make sure that the mainstream population is represented).

[Freespirited]

Last time I checked we were already on the margins. I am not sure how putting on a suit and tie for the majority is going to "help the cause". The problem is homophobia. It is a heart disease that operates quite independently from any offense caused by leather pants and dry humping on a pride parade float.

A lot of the "acting out" you see in our community is really about surviving. That night of clubbing may be the only place on earth a gay man can be totally himself. The pride parade is about visibility. The mannerisms are about liberation.

So let's not judge our community. We get enough of that already.;)


I have nothing against us gays doing those acts in a club amongst ourselves, even if you think being called a "prostitute or a bitch" if we so desire to call that being proud of being gay by lookers, more so by our own??? I do have a problem with gays or heterosexuals for that matter exposing their private parts and doing indecent acts in public whatever PUBLIC setting that may be! I don't think being proud of our nakeness have NOTHING to do with being proud of who we are as gay human beings! futhermore I think public indecent acts are far from being manneristic in nature to show our liberations as gay people. One more thing!! are you forgetting that in a lot of those parades there are a lot children expose to that kind of exhibitionistic act!? yes does right!! gay people have the right to bring their children to those parades too, you know!! now that is a beautiful and more positive aspect to show off of our gayness don't you think!?

LEANDRO

[tdogg]

First, I think people in this country are generally uptight about naked bodies and sex. We need to loosen up a bit (and I don't mean in the way you might think). Our sexual selves are just as significant as our other selves. We should feel free to express our sexual selves in the way we express our mental and emotional selves. I'm not saying to be exploitative, run around the neighborhood naked or get together with any ole one on the street. Just loosen up, accept your sexual self and be a little free to be ok with it.

Then, I just don't see anything wrong with a group of people expressing their imagination and creativity in a gay pride parade. It's been a long haul (and will continue to be) and particpants are celebrating how far they have come, that they have learned to love themselves and that they can be who they are no matter who agrees or not. They have a right to do their thing. IMO, it should be celebrated and if you can't get out there and join in then at least respect their right to do their thing in the parade. Hey, you can join in and be as clothed as you want and opt not to participate in any pretend sexual acts or whatever. You can express yourself, be yourself.

For those who are concerned about children being at a gay pride parade, while I wouldn't have a problem with bringing my child (I'm not a mom thought, so ???), for those that are concerned with what their child might see, well, it's a gay pride parade. So one should expect their child might see some half-naked bodies, body movements and outlandish costumes and floats. Definitely not the Rose Parade. So, perhaps the option would be to take their child to the Rose Parade where there are marching bands and horse riders and pretty flowery floats. By the way, I enjoy that too!

Guess my point is, we need to get over wanting everyone to act a certain way so that we are accepted. Each person should be accepted for who they are and not stuffed into a pre-made box that someone feels they should fit into. We are a hugely diverse world, and community, and our diversity is what makes this world so beautiful. I hear what is being said, and on the surface it may make sense, but deep down, every person has the right to be who they are and still obtain each and every right the next person has. Even if they go wild and crazy on pride day.

[bsnyder83]

Thanks for all of the comments. Everyone has great points. I never wanted to convey that i was ashamed of these "stereotypes," I was just a little concerned that that was what the most of people i run into 'know' of when the think of the gay community. Keep in mid that i live in a SMALL CITY IN INDIANA!!!! Many of these people still think that blacks are inferior by God's will, so we are talking about big time ignorance. I have drag queen friends who i love, transgrendered friends, butch lesbians, and a couple of guys that wear more makeup that a circus clown, and they all deserve to be who they wanna be.

I was just venting about how many of those in culturally malnourished areas percieve gays, and that is as sexual freaks and extremely promiscious. And when they see boys in thongs grinding each other on a float shaped like a big ol' weiner.......exactly. And i understand the ORIGINAL point of Pride parades (i.e. reactionary to the Stonewall Riots) but ask any of these little pill-popping twinkies, and they will have no clue what you are saying. "Are they a new punk band?"

Then again maybe it's just the commercialization of Pride now, being an easy way to make money by waiving sex and alcohol in front of our consumer noses. And if thats the case than i think we have successfully intergrated our selves with the rest of American culture.;)

Ben

[Daniel]

Then again maybe it's just the commercialization of Pride now, being an easy way to make money by waiving sex and alcohol in front of our consumer noses. And if thats the case than i think we have successfully intergrated our selves with the rest of American culture.;)


You make a salient point!

Can't tell you how many conversations I've had every Pride Day here in NYC where this is talked about. Pride has become very commercial. Exceedingly so. It seems to have grown far from its roots as a march of protest.

[kimmyd]

Alecto,

I'm not making presumptions about anything, nor did I say my experience was theirs.

Where--and how--do you come to your strange conclusions about my post?

And while you might consider my idea 'boring', it isn't vulgar and disgusting. I'd take my kids to my idea any day versus the other choice.

Don't put words in my mouth and put down my ideas like you're some kind of pro parade organizer. You're just another guy posting on here like the rest of us.

[kimmyd]

First, I think people in this country are generally uptight about naked bodies and sex. We need to loosen up a bit (and I don't mean in the way you might think). Our sexual selves are just as significant as our other selves. We should feel free to express our sexual selves in the way we express our mental and emotional selves. I'm not saying to be exploitative, run around the neighborhood naked or get together with any ole one on the street. Just loosen up, accept your sexual self and be a little free to be ok with it.

Then, I just don't see anything wrong with a group of people expressing their imagination and creativity in a gay pride parade. It's been a long haul (and will continue to be) and particpants are celebrating how far they have come, that they have learned to love themselves and that they can be who they are no matter who agrees or not. They have a right to do their thing. IMO, it should be celebrated and if you can't get out there and join in then at least respect their right to do their thing in the parade. Hey, you can join in and be as clothed as you want and opt not to participate in any pretend sexual acts or whatever. You can express yourself, be yourself.

For those who are concerned about children being at a gay pride parade, while I wouldn't have a problem with bringing my child (I'm not a mom thought, so ???), for those that are concerned with what their child might see, well, it's a gay pride parade. So one should expect their child might see some half-naked bodies, body movements and outlandish costumes and floats. Definitely not the Rose Parade. So, perhaps the option would be to take their child to the Rose Parade where there are marching bands and horse riders and pretty flowery floats. By the way, I enjoy that too!

Guess my point is, we need to get over wanting everyone to act a certain way so that we are accepted. Each person should be accepted for who they are and not stuffed into a pre-made box that someone feels they should fit into. We are a hugely diverse world, and community, and our diversity is what makes this world so beautiful. I hear what is being said, and on the surface it may make sense, but deep down, every person has the right to be who they are and still obtain each and every right the next person has. Even if they go wild and crazy on pride day.


You have a very, very good point.

I guess mine is, if we want to be taken as serious, normal and moralistic people, we need to act like that.

BUT, there is nothing wrong with fun displays either.

There just needs to be a middle ground somewhere: fun AND serious.

[kimmyd]

Then again maybe it's just the commercialization of Pride now, being an easy way to make money by waiving sex and alcohol in front of our consumer noses. And if thats the case than i think we have successfully intergrated our selves with the rest of American culture.;)

Ben[/QUOTE]


Lol.

Yay us.:love::lol:

[Alecto]

Alecto,

I'm not making presumptions about anything, nor did I say my experience was theirs.

Where--and how--do you come to your strange conclusions about my post?

And while you might consider my idea 'boring', it isn't vulgar and disgusting. I'd take my kids to my idea any day versus the other choice.

Don't put words in my mouth and put down my ideas like you're some kind of pro parade organizer. You're just another guy posting on here like the rest of us.

What I was getting at is that you're making assumptions about these people when you don't know what their experience is (when it is, obviously, very different from your own). By referring to everyone we're talking about as "exhibitionists", and talking about how these people see themselves, you're projecting a set of assumptions. And that ain't right. I think I've said in my previous posts (though, I'm not looking at them, so it bears repeating) that I'm not defending public nudity or sex acts or anything else that would legally be considered...well...not. But the OP started out talking NOT about nudity, or sex acts, but about butch lesbians and nelly twinks and drag queens. That, I hope you can agree, ain't right. (And I may have gone into defensive mode by making assumptions about just who you were referring to as "exhibitionists"; I do think that the parade has become, in many cities if not mine, too sexualized; I do NOT think that people who subvert gender expression are deserving of anyone's judgement though).
I completely understand why you want to "ditch the humping"; that makes sense to me, but why does the glitter have to go with it?

You have every right to take your kids where you want to, and I DO have some major issues that, at very least, if a pride parade is going to be an overly sexualized party, they don't at least let people know that. It seems like there should be SOME family-friendly option available; like how there's several Mardi Gras parades. What I'm saying is, I'm with you on some of this, but other parts (which I may have misunderstood?) are very insulting.

Also...how do you know I'm not a pro-parade organizer? ;) If I was, would my opinions hold any more sway? I'm trying not to be too terribly grumpy, but I have a major, MAJOR pet peeve when people within the queer community start judging each other for stupid things, and I get VERY angry when people start blaming the more visible "fringes" of the GLBT community (the Queer people) when these are the folks who, historically as well as today, have taken the brunt of the homophobic violence.

[Daniel]

.... and I get VERY angry when people start blaming the more visible "fringes" of the GLBT community (the Queer people) when these are the folks who, historically as well as today, have taken the brunt of the homophobic violence.

All too often, the sort of thinking which goes along the lines of 'if only you people would dress and act nice, we'd give you your rights' morphs into 'you got what you deserved'. And I'm not talking party favors.

Either thought is violent as far as I'm concerned.

[Zerbie]

All too often, the sort of thinking which goes along the lines of 'if only you people would dress and act nice, we'd give you your rights' .

Yep.

It's deceptive. It doesn't work that way. It just turns the "nice" oppressed person into a doormat.

Then again, I also believe that finding the appropriate balance between doormat and in-your-face-counterproductive to be about the most difficult challenge that there is. Good luck balancing on a razor blade! And it's all part and parcel of the Deluxe Oppression Package Deal: they heap it on you, and then it becomes your job to be the genius one to figure out the precise balancing act of how to "persuade" Mr Oppressor into "giving" you the dignity he took away from you in the first place. People wonder why there's anger???

[antonyh]

I don't think being proud of our nakeness have NOTHING to do with being proud of who we are as gay human beings! futhermore I think public indecent acts are far from being manneristic in nature to show our liberations as gay people.
LEANDRO

You forgot to mention the Lesbians that ride topless on motorcycles during the dyke parade. Don't blame it all on the boys :lol:

[Rick336]

Here's an article that appeared in the Advocate a year ago on this subject:

Is Gay Pride Good PR?

A-List Hollywood publicist Michael Levine assesses the public relations impact of pride festivals and parades.

It is undeniably true that it is difficult to be gay in our society. Cultural, religious, and in some cases governmental disapproval of homosexuality by the majority infects the daily lives of gay men and lesbians, and it can seem that the pressure from all sides to deny one's identity is overwhelming and unrelenting.

The need for release, for freedom, is unmistakable. But gay pride festivals in cities around the country can sometimes do more harm than good.

I say this as a sympathetic heterosexual who makes a living in public realtions and has done so for more than 20 years. When I discuss the impact of gay pride demonstrations and parades, it is not from a standpoint of moral disapproval or even political ideology. I'm assessing the impact made on society as a whole - the good or damage done to the cause of gay identity and rights in the United States - by the spectacle that gay pride demonstrations can make.

From where I'm standing it's not doing a lot of good.

Believe me, I understand that it must feel wonderful to take to the streets with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people who, finally, agree with you and understand your life. I realize that even in today's less closeted society it has to be a joyful moment to stop trying to play by the majority's rules and simply aknowledge one's own identity: to be you.

But it comes with a cost. Society's mind-set in the 21st century is determined by the media, in particular television. And in a 24-hour news cycle, when entire networks have to fill a full day, every day, with current happenings, the impact of gay pride festivals will be reduced to a 20-second piece of videotape that will be played and replayed multiple times during the day until something new, something else that makes "good television" replaces it.

And if you think that a 20-second clip is going to be a reasoned assessment of the plight of an oppressed minority, a sound bite from a gay man or lesbian who makes a thoughtful point about demanding an equal place in our country, you are living in a very different society than I am.

What's going to be shown on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and for all I know Aljazeera, is a montage of drag queens, leather enthusiasts, and floats in the shape of a penis - all parading down Main Streets in major cities with the implied message to the red states in Middle America that this is on its way to an avenue near you.

We can debate for years whether this is an accurate or appropriate depiction of most gay men or lesbians. But I can tell you from a strict public relations viewpoint that it will not - ever - help the cause of gay equality in the United States.

When Muslims in this country argue that the media ( in news or fictional television and film ) depict only the most radical of their religion and thereby distort the view that most Americans have of all Muslims, they have a point. Such portrayals make for vivid images, something that will cause a viewer to stop channel surfing and take a look - and that's what television networks are trying to do. But it doesn't necessarily paint an accurate picture or provide comprehensive information about complex issues.

You'd think that a 24-hour news cycle would offer more depth, as news organizations would have much more time than they once did - 30 minutes a night until the 1980s - to delve into complex issues. But what has happened is that the news has become polarized, and the extra time is generally given to loud political debate (if one cares to use the most polite term for the screaming that goes on). Discussion of issues is left by the wayside.

I don't argue for one second that gay people should not be proud of who they are, nor that they should deny their true identities for the sake of society. But I don't think that wild gay pride celebrations and demonstrations in public serve well the cause they claim to support.

They make good television, but they certainly don't make for better public policy.

Levine is founder of the prominent Los Angeles public relations firm Levine Communications Office. He is the author of 17 books, the latest of which is Broken Windows, Broken Business (Warner). Find out more at BrokenWindows.com

The Advocate website is http://www.Advocate.com

[Alecto]

You forgot to mention the Lesbians that ride topless on motorcycles during the dyke parade. Don't blame it all on the boys :lol:


I thought I heard somewhere that it's state by state whether going topless is technically nudity / indecent. So...maybe they have every legal right to ride topless, right?


As for "good PR"; I would contend that the Pride Parade isn't for them, it's for us. If they want to peer in at the queers, there's not much we can do to stop them (just like there's not much we can do to stop the curious college kids from stopping into our bars to gawk at us). What we can do is re-claim the straight space of a city street, and for one day make the whole public street into Queer space. We can empower ourselves as well as come together to celebrate ourselves.

At ANY wedding / other large celebration, you can find SOMETHING embarassing to catch on tape. I think that the PR piece is a very accurate description of the role of the media in our lives (too many people think they have some inherent responsibility for truth, or accuracy, or social justice: the ONLY responsibility they have is to make money). I don't, however, think that "straightening up" is going to change anything. We'll either be boring enough to not make the news at all, or they'll find SOMETHING to make outrageous. It's not as though drag queens don't exist; why should we pretend they don't? WHy should the "leather enthusiasts" and dykes on bikes be marginalized for "good PR"?

And is it terribly wrong that I find it distasteful that the Advocate essentially hired a PR person for the entire gay community? And that it's that much worse that it's a straight person, who has to "understand that it must feel" because they've never felt it themselves?

[Dash]

But, my heavens, have you ever seen footage of a Carnival (Rio) or Mardi Gras (New Orleans) parade. How about some of the costumes and antics the straights put on for those parades? Or are they a little less than straight just for a day? Is it OK for them to have fun and camp it up, but not us?

I think this is soooo important to consider. :inspector: In my opinion, we all too often buy into society's condemnation of ourselves. :borg: We believe (in part) that we are less than legitimate members of society because...because...because they point out that we SHARE common human forms of celebration and excess. We did not learn this behavior because we are gay, and therefore somehow less than human, but because we are HUMAN--and humans play this way sometimes!

It is a long tradition of bawdy display represented as far back as Carnivale hundreds of years ago, bacchanals of the ancient world and beyond. San Francisco just had is annual (since 1912) Bay to Breakers (http://origin.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/localnews/ci_5947368) footrace. Early 80's, as I understand, Oklahoma State University (my undergrad) had an annual "Streakers Night" where all the kids would spill out of the dorms in the hot August evening and run wild and free! :running: This went on for years until some violence and vandalism brought it to an end (alas, before my time there). Luther College has "Naked Soccer" (so my Luther friends tell me) where students get up at 4am in the freezing cold and the faculty cook pancakes. Oberlin College is just a big hairy orgy according to reports. :lol: Even here at Northwestern the young folks run a race around the lake fill (http://media.www.dailynorthwestern.com/media/storage/paper853/news/2007/01/29/Campus/Daring.Runners.Bare.All.But.Weather.Puts.A.Chill.O n.Race.Attendance-2682832.shtml) in the deep mid-winter taking off items of clothing each lap.

It ain't a gay thing, friends. It's human. As a community we should never BLAME ourselves, or let them blame us for being merely human and expressing our humanity in the very same ways that others do. It may be, by some reckoning, licentious...but WE are not therefore any different or worse than society as a whole.

[RM260boy]

reading this thread has given me flashback's to the 60's sending shivers down my spine.

what the glbt community needs i think is a person to rally us in large groups. someone who can speak for our community. someone who can get the lazy people like myself (i will be doing more very soon i hope) to address our concerns with conviction.

unfortunately i am one of the "good" gays. in the past i have not spoken up when i have seen toes being stepped on. i have remained silent when i should said, "hey, don't you think that that is not very nice". i think that if more of us spoke up (with respect of course) when offensive words are spoken, that then there would be less offensive actions against the glbt community. of course this might (or might not) have an affect on an individual, but over time it would. i would like to think that society could be changed by individuals

i think that what is hard to accept is that the entire spectrum - from glitter to coseted homophobes - (my choice of ends not real ones) are part of our community, and a good portion of our problem.

i say that we take advantage of the internet, the airwaves, the newspapers and all of the other media that i have left out to point out little things so that big ones don't happen.

my wish, and i have to participate to make it come true.

rally the troops we are taking over! :laughing:

[Alecto]

What's funny is, I think we have too many people trying to speak for us. We've got Joe Salmonese of HRC (which..I'm sure has done a lot of good, but as a "political" organization, has also had to make compromises that I don't agree with). It's a lobby group, essentially, and it works a LOT differently than, say, ACT UP (led by one Mr. Larry Kramer: http://youtube.com/watch?v=vGFUX-SfR4U). Both have, arguably, rallied large groups, but they've been rallied in different ways to do very different things. And...that's probably a good thing, but I guess I'm saying the leaders are out there. I'm not sure what the missing piece is, but it seems like that's not it.

[Daniel]

Gay Gandhi?


Maybe that's each of us.

[Zerbie]

Gay Gandhi?


Maybe that's each of us.

Ja. Sort of.

I'm just speculating here, but it strikes me that we all need to prepare ourselves for the possibility of being in a leadership position someday. Then, as to whether it happens, that depends on circumstance and chance. I think it really amounts to a combination of calling meets preparedness.

There really isn't any one charismatic personage who all, or even most, of the LGBT community rallies around and identifies with the movement - none that I've ever observed anyway. The creation of such, if even possible, will take someone being really developed and prepared to step in just happening to land in a set of circumstances that enable a unified movement to take off. From what I understand of history, there has NEVER been a unified gay movement - always fractious. But I think it would only help us to have a central figure who most (we'll never get all) of the community feels comfortable to rally round.

I been waitin' on a gay Gandhi since I was about seven. But I don't think such a personage can be force-created. Too much involves a complex interaction of circumstance.

So thank you, Daniel, for the reminder that in the meantime, it's up to each and every one of us. It's far more powerful to BE what is needed than to sit around bemoaning its absence.

[Freespirited]

All I can say is that my idea of fighting for my rights, or showing pride of my gayness in a parade is NOT by acting in a degrading and indecent way as a way to draw attention, am I really fighting for my rights here? and then after demand to be taken seriously by anyone else!? Duh! there is a time and place for everything, but shaking the naked cheeks of my buttocks through my pants in public is only going to cause shock value, annd NOT the right kind of value I need in order to be respected, or even understood by those who don't know what it is to be gay!


Leandro

[antonyh]

All I can say is that my idea of fighting for my rights, or showing pride of my gayness in a parade is NOT by acting in a degrading and indecent way as a way to draw attention, am I really fighting for my rights here? and then after demand to be taken seriously by anyone else!? Duh! there is a time and place for everything, but shaking the naked cheeks of my buttocks through my pants in public is only going to cause shock value, annd NOT the right kind of value I need in order to be respected, or even understood by those who don't know what it is to be gay!


Leandro

It takes all types to make the world go round.

Honestly, if Pride was such an embarassment, why do politicians line up in droves to be in the parade? Last year we have the Governer and all the people running for his position.

[Sherrie Z]

A few random thoughts ...

A Gay Gandhi would be great ... any kind of Gandhi would be great ... but Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn't do it by themselves. We have the power to be Gandhi in our own ways ... and here at Soulforce, that's exactly what we have ... the embodiment of non-violent resistance.

As a person who happens to be a caucasian, hetero, non-trans, and single female ... and who happens to be on the quiet and reserved side in terms of personal style ... I would be profoundly disappointed if the LGBT community as a whole ever toned itself down for the sake of pleasing or appeasing the larger "straight" world ...

There is a time and place for playing the game ... most job interviews, most meetings with legislators, most media appearances on political programs ... but in everyday real life ... or during a parade or a party or a celebration ... without color and diversity, without real freedom of expression, what would be the point? To fight for full freedom of expression, but to do so only in the form and style of mainstream conformity? Huh?

There may be just a few individuals in any given pride parade who kinda push the boundaries past the line of good taste, but if we start making rules or drawing lines about what is or isn't OK, we could get into much worse trouble than the minor trouble caused by those occasional moments of bad taste ...

Even though I personally lean toward the quiet and reserved side ... I am sooo much more uncomfortable on those occasions when I am surrounded by lily white families with strollers ... by couple-centric, well-behaved and properly dressed mainstream society ... than I am in the midst of the wildest moment during any pride parade or club scene ... but that's just me.

Whatever your personal preference in terms of style or expression or social surroundings ... without a genuinely open and free society ... without real diversity and without appreciation and respect for the full range of cultural expression, that is, without freedom and color ... we have no real democracy, we have no real life, and we certainly would have no fun! You're here, you're queer, and thank God! : )

[Dash]

What do you all think of this?

Now King David was told, "The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-Edom and everything he has, because of the ark of God." So David went down and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David with rejoicing. When those who were carrying the ark of the LORD had taken six steps, he sacrificed a bull and a fattened calf. David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the LORD. After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.

When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."
~2 Samuel 6:12-22

I don't if it relates completely to the topic, but that last line of David's is a zinger. :)

[RM260boy]

wow sherrie :applause::applause::applause:
wow dash :applause::applause::applause:

also slightly off subject but kind of related:
i just saw ron paul for my first time on bill maher. so i "wiki-ed" him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul . i normaly don't pay attention to republican contenders, except for the sound bites, until it gets closer to the election, and i am seriously thinking about changing parties so that i can vote for him in the republican primary. his political positions lined up almost perfectly, for the things that i look for in a national politician. anyway, i am going to watch the republicans this closer this go round.

[Sherrie Z]

wow sherrie :applause::applause::applause:
wow dash :applause::applause::applause:



Thanks, RM ... and thanks to Dash too, for that intriguing quote ... : )

[Freespirited]

A few random thoughts ...

A Gay Gandhi would be great ... any kind of Gandhi would be great ... but Gandhi and Martin Luther King didn't do it by themselves. We have the power to be Gandhi in our own ways ... and here at Soulforce, that's exactly what we have ... the embodiment of non-violent resistance.

As a person who happens to be a caucasian, hetero, non-trans, and single female ... and who happens to be on the quiet and reserved side in terms of personal style ... I would be profoundly disappointed if the LGBT community as a whole ever toned itself down for the sake of pleasing or appeasing the larger "straight" world ...

There is a time and place for playing the game ... most job interviews, most meetings with legislators, most media appearances on political programs ... but in everyday real life ... or during a parade or a party or a celebration ... without color and diversity, without real freedom of expression, what would be the point? To fight for full freedom of expression, but to do so only in the form and style of mainstream conformity? Huh?

There may be just a few individuals in any given pride parade who kinda push the boundaries past the line of good taste, but if we start making rules or drawing lines about what is or isn't OK, we could get into much worse trouble than the minor trouble caused by those occasional moments of bad taste ...

Even though I personally lean toward the quiet and reserved side ... I am sooo much more uncomfortable on those occasions when I am surrounded by lily white families with strollers ... by couple-centric, well-behaved and properly dressed mainstream society ... than I am in the midst of the wildest moment during any pride parade or club scene ... but that's just me.

Whatever your personal preference in terms of style or expression or social surroundings ... without a genuinely open and free society ... without real diversity and without appreciation and respect for the full range of cultural expression, that is, without freedom and color ... we have no real democracy, we have no real life, and we certainly would have no fun! You're here, you're queer, and thank God! : )


I am going to push the envelope here by simply agreeing with you that diversity is key towards human understanding, that being said why is it so hard to understand that lily white families, racial minorities, illegal aliens, couple centric, well-behaved and properly dressed peoples are also a part of the gay community as well as in mainstream society with values and morals!? period, and who said that I as a gay man can't have morals and values too!? in my opinion it is our own fault for not wanting to be a part of morality just because there are others who share same sets of values or morals, but who use it in a destructive and negative way! furthermore I question the validity and sincerity of those who only support us through the filtered screen of politics, behind a monitor, or even those who come to the parade only to have a good laugh at us, and when they go back to the comfort of their own home or mindframe they still think the worse of us.


If you accept and encourage diversity will you welcome at your place of worship and feel comfortable sitting right next to a prostitute dressed inappropiately, who also happens to be a christian? will you give a job to a tanned skin hispanic male, who is also an ilegal alien, but have a family to suport? will you accept ghetto talk with fouled language on your favorite tv shows or local programming? why not? aren't all these people part of the rainbow within our society? then why not accept their human condition as well!?

I stopped blaming society for criticizing me for being gay the day my own mother looked straight into my eyes, and told me I should stop blaming heteros for my miseries and shortcomings! of course I hated her for saying that at the time, but now that I am older and wiser I understood her sentiments quite well, and she was right!! so I stopped feeling sorry and having self pity at myself for wanting to be what the straight and gay community demanded of me, and then my life turned 360 degrees in a better light. As a result I am finally enjoying the freedom of just being me, but quietly, and without the support of external influences. I don't need to go to a parade to shake my butt to boost my confidence and the reassurance of being proud of who I am. That is not to say that I live a boring life, since I do enjoy going to gay nightclubs every once in a while to celebrate my gayness, but in a confined and safe gay environment. Furthermore I was brought up in a home where self respect and the respect of others was a way of accepting myself and others different from me.


You as a heterosexual woman have no idea of what gay people go through to be who we are!? for starters there is a lack of role models in our own comunity for the young gay men in mainstream gay communities, which unfortunately much of it is very liberal. It is ok to be open minded but it is also important to be consciencious and considerate of conservationism as well, so as long as both respect and value each other's point of view!! I respect drag queens and exhibitionists, so much so that when they run into legal problems I will be the first one to help them out of trouble. but if we were to ruled out the conservatives wether gay or straight we will live in a totalitarian society, and that is not healthy for a democracy! in order to enjoy freedom for those who demand it, they must do it with civility and properness so they get their main point across, belief me other people will take them more seriously, slowly but surely!! A fine example of that can be noticed in the images of Gandhi and Martin Lurther King on the main page of Soulforce! this two leaders lead millions to march the streets in a civil and proper way, where their voices and messages were there most powerful weapon versus the usage of sex and exhibitionism as a way to draw attention as is so common in the gay parades.


Funny that most gay people are bought into the idea that Stonewall's drag queens incident in Nyc was the starting point of the gay movement! personally I think that they were just a diverse group like many others who had contributed through the ages to the gay movement throughout history. Thanking or validating drag queens for my freedoms to be gay is like thanking my parents for making me gay just because they gave me birth!! but my parents have never demanded recognition for all of my personal accomplishments just because they brought me into this world!!


LEANDRO

[tdogg]

If you managed to stop all pride parades in this country, it would not make a difference in our fight for equality. The reason we are up against such great obstacles isn't because GLBT people go nuts in a pride parade. It's because there are so many out there that preach hate against us, and they would do it even if pride parades didn't exist.

If a person isn't interested in seeing or joining in a pride parade, great, stay home. I'm not going to judge. If a person wants to join in a pride parade, dress up in whatever and march down the road, great for them too. Not going to judge. I am gay and have gone through difficult times (and going through them now) BECAUSE I am gay and I certainly have nothing against craziness in a pride parade (can't wait to get to my first one, hopefully SF this year!), and I'm all for people expressing themselves. I love it. I love diversity. I love different. I think it is what makes the world go 'round.

Hey, I even love those who aren't into that sort of thing. They help make the world go 'round too.

I don't think the answer is to judge drag queens or nutty parade marchers. We must go after those who are preaching the hate. Shut them down. Strive for equality. Never give up, never give in. We all deserve equal rights, even if we dress a little differently or dry hump in a parade or stay home and watch the Friends while we eat ice cream.

[Freespirited]

If you managed to stop all pride parades in this country, it would not make a difference in our fight for equality. The reason we are up against such great obstacles isn't because GLBT people go nuts in a pride parade. It's because there are so many out there that preach hate against us, and they would do it even if pride parades didn't exist.

If a person isn't interested in seeing or joining in a pride parade, great, stay home. I'm not going to judge. If a person wants to join in a pride parade, dress up in whatever and march down the road, great for them too. Not going to judge. I am gay and have gone through difficult times (and going through them now) BECAUSE I am gay and I certainly have nothing against craziness in a pride parade (can't wait to get to my first one, hopefully SF this year!), and I'm all for people expressing themselves. I love it. I love diversity. I love different. I think it is what makes the world go 'round.

Hey, I even love those who aren't into that sort of thing. They help make the world go 'round too.

I don't think the answer is to judge drag queens or nutty parade marchers. We must go after those who are preaching the hate. Shut them down. Strive for equality. Never give up, never give in. We all deserve equal rights, even if we dress a little differently or dry hump in a parade or stay home and watch the Friends while we eat ice cream.


I am not passing any judgement, I merely expressing my own opinion as you are. I am simply sharing my impressions of what I feel as the best and most effective way for others who may not understand, or are doing some soul searching, as to what it is to be human and gay! it is important for others diiferent from us to see us equally normal as them, because after all (wether you agree with me or not) when going back to our homes we are all equally normal human beings after taking off our clothes, the masks, makeup, and the roles we use to put up an act in society! that is perhaps the point I am trying to make! why try to be different by putting up an act of what we are not in real life!? isn't being real what we try to be!? or is acting up of what we are not perceived as being real in today's society?

I agree that diversity is good, but having said that isn't everyone, including those who may not agree with you, part of that diversity as well!? or is diversity in our gay community only exclusive to those of us who are suitable for or experts at shock value? as those who stand above everyone elses? I read somewhere in this post a very disturbing comment about someone implying that the presence of drag queens are more important then the presence of gay parents with their children in a parade!? now that is really sad!


LEANDRO

[tdogg]

I hear what you are saying Leandro. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves just to win the approval of those who feel we should be within some type of boundaries they would consider 'normal'. For some, dressing in drag is quite normal and though they may not be drag queens 24/7, they are for a significant part of their lives, and it's an important thing. We shouldn't want them not to express themselves for a select few.

We must work at equality and acceptance just as we are. A whole diverse world of all types, not just someone another person hopes to see in a 'box'. That includes those with views that dressing in drag, dancing in gay clubs and marching in pride parades isn't their thing.

I think more importantly, people just need to be out, and be themselves. The more we do that, the more we become routine (as opposed to normal) and the closer we are to acceptance. "Normal" means someone has to define it, and then the others have to live within the definition.

You are totally free and right to have your opinion. Mine is just that, my opinion, coming from someone who expressed herself many ways, just as I desire without expectations or hopes that others will consider me normal or approve of my ways. So naturally that may not coincide with your opinion. I have strong feelings about those who want to put others in boxes, within boundaries, and wish they lived, acted and spoke a certain way so that we would be accepted. We should all be accepted just as we are, when we are expressing our personalities, or not. Just my feelings on this.

By the way, I don't consider a pride march participant any more OR LESS important than gay parents. They are both important to the color and diversity of our world. Life wouldn't be the same if we were all the same.

[Sherrie Z]

Funny that most gay people are bought into the idea that Stonewall's drag queens incident in Nyc was the starting point of the gay movement!

LEANDRO

Thank you, Leandro, for your response to my post. I am not going to go point by point to list where we agree and disagree. I think that those points would likely be clear to anyone who has read and compared our posts. This same type of discussion has been going on for decades. The cool thing about this forum is the wide range of ideas and opinions that we have, and that even in disagreement, we share so much more in common.

Your mention of the Stonewall incident reminds me that very few people are aware that there was a similar incident in San Francisco three years prior to Stonewall ... the Compton Riot occurred for similar reasons and with a similar clientele ... but is not as widely known. The riot took place in a cafeteria called Compton's in the Tenderloin area of downtown San Francisco in 1966. Just something of interest to pass along ... : )

[Freespirited]

I hear what you are saying Leandro. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves just to win the approval of those who feel we should be within some type of boundaries they would consider 'normal'. For some, dressing in drag is quite normal and though they may not be drag queens 24/7, they are for a significant part of their lives, and it's an important thing. We shouldn't want them not to express themselves for a select few.

We must work at equality and acceptance just as we are. A whole diverse world of all types, not just someone another person hopes to see in a 'box'. That includes those with views that dressing in drag, dancing in gay clubs and marching in pride parades isn't their thing.

I think more importantly, people just need to be out, and be themselves. The more we do that, the more we become routine (as opposed to normal) and the closer we are to acceptance. "Normal" means someone has to define it, and then the others have to live within the definition.

You are totally free and right to have your opinion. Mine is just that, my opinion, coming from someone who expressed herself many ways, just as I desire without expectations or hopes that others will consider me normal or approve of my ways. So naturally that may not coincide with your opinion. I have strong feelings about those who want to put others in boxes, within boundaries, and wish they lived, acted and spoke a certain way so that we would be accepted. We should all be accepted just as we are, when we are expressing our personalities, or not. Just my feelings on this.

By the way, I don't consider a pride march participant any more OR LESS important than gay parents. They are both important to the color and diversity of our world. Life wouldn't be the same if we were all the same.

I am glad we both understand our views on this ever ending and sometimes tiresome debate of what is right or what not! I am glad you understand that the celebration of diversity goes beyond looks and stereotypes! and frankly I am a lot more open minded then I seem! I don't know why but as I've gotten older I'ved become a lot more conservative then my younger wilder days!! maybe it is because being accepted is not an issue with me anymore!? I am very happy in my own skin!!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts without being overly sensitive about it! that is why I love this discussion forum, because most people here are very accepting if not at least respectable of differences!


LEANDRO

[Freespirited]

Thank you for your response to my post. I am not going to go point by point to list where we agree and disagree. I think that those points would likely be clear to anyone who has read and compared our posts. The cool thing about this forum is the wide range of ideas and opinions that we have, and that even in disagreement, we share so much more in common.

Your mention of the Stonewall incident reminds me that very few people are aware that there was a similar incident in San Francisco three years prior to Stonewall ... the Compton Riot occurred for similar reasons and with a similar clientele ... but is not as widely known. The riot took place in a cafeteria called Compton's in the Tenderloin area of downtown San Francisco in 1966. Just something of interest to pass along ... : )


Sherrie!!

Thank you for your courteous response! I am glad you are aware that Stonewall was just one of many other smaller incidents that have gradually contribute to our cause for self-respect and dignity not just for being gay but more importantly for being human beings!

My opologies for sounding a bit harsh an my previous reply to you! you are right when you say that this forum is quite unique, in that we can discuss anything without taking it personally, and at the same time reacting in a mature and accepting way! thank you again for your positive feedbacks! as I do value your thoughts on the subject!


LEANDRO

[Sherrie Z]

Thanks, Leandro!

I very much appreciate your kind and thoughtful response ... and here's to diversity, cheers! : )

Hugs,

Sherrie Z

[tpdncr4christ]

My friend and myself (both gay men) were having a conversation about why we thought gay rights has such a resistance. And one of my beliefs, is that most people are ignorant to the fact that there ARE "normal" gay poeple. Because unlike a racial minority, people cant neccesarily tell youre gay just by looking at you. As far as they are concerned , they only know of the stereotypes, drag queens, leather daddies, lesbians who look like john goodman, and twinkie gay boys who worship paris hilton. And i do have friends of all sterotypes, however at this point in politics when we want to get recognized as "normal" people who want to get married and have kids. It seems that the American majority only sees these stereotypes when they think of homosexuals. And, partially, it is not their fault for their ignorance. Just look what one sees at a gay pride parade. Drag queens and gay boys in thongs covered in glitter dry humping each other. Now all of these people deserve equal rights but is anyone else just a little frustrated by all off these perpetuated sterotypes?

I like you sir. I agree completely with what you're saying. Well, kinda...

Yes we should be proud, and yes we should embrace our flamboyant nature every now and then, but that shouldn't be the only side we show off. It's like that one bible story... the one about the parts of the body. We can't have just a hand, and the nose can't tell the eye to stop seeing... Just like we can't just have one type of gay people. We need to show off the less flamboyant folks, we need to educate the public by saying we are here... I don't think bsnyder83 is saying we should get rid of those of our members on fire, I think he is saying show off the rest. Let the normal show as much as the... flamboyant. I like it.

[keltic63]

We need to show off the less flamboyant folks, we need to educate the public by saying we are here... I don't think bsnyder83 is saying we should get rid of those of our members on fire, I think he is saying show off the rest. Let the normal show as much as the... flamboyant. I like it.

this is, of course, correct, Austin. the problem is that at the Pride Parade, the normal are right there marching along with the more flamboyant; it's just that the "normal" lgbt people aren't the ones that show up on the 6:00pm news!

[tpdncr4christ]

this is, of course, correct, Austin. the problem is that at the Pride Parade, the normal are right there marching along with the more flamboyant; it's just that the "normal" lgbt people aren't the ones that show up on the 6:00pm news!

ok... so it's not the gay community that needs reform, it's the media. Got it. I've never been to a pride parade so I wouldn't know... Who wants to take our pitchforks and torches and knock down fox evening news, or maybe cbn? We could take em. until they just :borg: us...

[tdogg]

I think most media organizations are run by conservative right wingers, mostly of the Christian variety. They are addicted to sensational. They need sensational to 'bring in the sheep' and keep people followers and not leaders. They cannot survive without the sensational.

How often do we see positive aspects of our GLBT world on the news or in newspapers? I don't see it too often unless I'm watching the LOGO channel, and it's not always that positive there either. It's for the most part negative. The general population watches TV and reads the newspapers and believes what is being reported. We all know what is reported isn't always, isn't usually, what actually happened.

So maybe you have something there - we take over all media and report things the way they actually happen!

[tpdncr4christ]

do we have any good resources? how about this one!:

Fake Gay News (http://www.fakegaynews.com/)

It may not be true but it is certainly much more entertaining.

[BrentRichards]

I think most media organizations are run by conservative right wingers, mostly of the Christian variety. They are addicted to sensational. They need sensational to 'bring in the sheep' and keep people followers and not leaders. They cannot survive without the sensational.

How often do we see positive aspects of our GLBT world on the news or in newspapers? I don't see it too often unless I'm watching the LOGO channel, and it's not always that positive there either. It's for the most part negative. The general population watches TV and reads the newspapers and believes what is being reported. We all know what is reported isn't always, isn't usually, what actually happened.

So maybe you have something there - we take over all media and report things the way they actually happen!

I don't think it has anything to do with the media being conservative or liberal ... they're ruled by the almighty dollar, not a political viewpoint. "Whatever sells papers, that's what we print."

[Dash]

I don't think it has anything to do with the media being conservative or liberal ... they're ruled by the almighty dollar, not a political viewpoint. "Whatever sells papers, that's what we print."

I agree with you 100% Brent!

I read both liberal and conservative blogs. The liberals swear the media is run by conservatives, and the conservatives decry the media as the tool of liberals.

What I think is this: journalism sniffs out the sensational...both of liberal and conservative issues. Trouble is...liberals are not shocked by the things that are sensational about liberalism. In fact they barely see them...even though they are in the news. Likewise, conservatives are blind to the shocking things revealed about conservative issues. They simply are not shocked by seeing themselves.

I always make the mistake of reading Americablog or DailyKos, and then running over to see what the folks at Redstate are saying about the issues. What I find are conservatives yakking about everything BUT the things the liberals are complaining about. If an issue becomes big enough in the news, then both sides get around to discussing it, but usually the disconnect between the two perspectives on public issues is positively vertiginous.

The result? Each side thinks the media is against 'em.

[antonyh]

We just had IML (International Male Leather) here and all the religious right pundits where there snapping pictures to post on their blogs to scare the faithful about the perverse corruption of America by the homosexual agenda.

I think the issue is more that the extreme right use events like this to give a distorted view of our community. Although they also went hog wild with the Cheney's new grandchild...and that was a beautiful picture of family love.

So in the end, who really cares what they think?

[BrentRichards]

the disconnect between the two perspectives on public issues is positively vertiginous.

Remind me never to play Scrabble with you! Excellent word!