What Comes First?

[alakazoom87]

I'm going to quote something off this website and talk about it a little bit. Hopefully giving you guys something to think about.

"Whatever some people believe the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American."

Before I get started, let me say one thing. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, as my Lord and savior. The Bible is the word of God.

Now, the above quotation (like many others on this website) saddens me. Putting the fussing aside about whether or not being a homosexual Christian is an oxymoron or not. Look at what the above quotation is saying! The above quotation is saying that the United States Constitution supercedes what the Bible, the word of God, has to say. Are the forefathers of this nation more wise than the apostles themselves? I think not.

Read the Bible for what it says, not what you want it to say.


P.S.

I realized that I put this post in the wrong area of the forum so I moved it here.

[antonyh]

I have three reactions:

1. :lol:
2. :headbang:
3. :rainbow:

Do we really want to go down this road?

[andrewlittle]

I have three reactions:

1. :lol:
2. :headbang:
3. :rainbow:

Do we really want to go down this road?

Wow, I'm impressed. My reactions all included derogatory remarks and expletives. Of course, my head is vacuous until someone comes and posts something I've NEVER HEARD BEFORE to give me something to think about.

[antonyh]

Wow, I'm impressed. My reactions all included derogatory remarks and expletives. Of course, my head is vacuous until someone comes and posts something I've NEVER HEARD BEFORE to give me something to think about.

LOL...there have to be a hundred threads on this topic in one form or another.

[lydiam]

1. :lol:
2. :headbang:
3. :rainbow:

that really does say it all.

[Britt.]

Agreed, antonyh. I think I just vomited in my mouth a little. Redundancy...

[u-dog]

LOL...there have to be a hundred threads on this topic in one form or another.

Antony has an excellent point, Alakazoom. We have discussed what you are saying a million times before and we don't really want to start all over again from scratch. So here is what you need to do.

1. Look through the gazillion threads that are archived here, read the ones that you find most provocative, and

2. when you find something that you don't understand or don't agree with bring that back to us and we will do our best to help you understand. I would particularly draw your attention to a thread about "biblical inerrancy"


Your little phrase: "Read the Bible for what it says, not what you want it to say." is true as far as it goes, but that is a very difficult thing to actually do. In our collective experience almost no one who says that actually does it.

Do us all a favor and DON'T preach to us. Start your posts with humble statements like "I don't understand how you come to this conclusion about "x" or "are you saying that________ ?" or "I understand Paul to be saying.... how do you interpret that"

If you come back and say "God says that ________ " we are not likely to be very receptive to what you say next.

just my 2 cents.

[Pablo Rafael]

Matthew,

I don't want to be argumentative, but every time I hear someone say that "we have to believe what the Bible says and not what we want to believe", it always ends up being "This is what I say that the Bible says. Therefore you cannot argue against me."

The Bible must be interpreted. Everyone who says they believe the Bible, interprets it to find its teachings. I, like you, also believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. But is cannot be taken literally without looking at context and how God works among his people (which is grace). Since God is love and he directs us to act in love, any act that opresses people cannot be from God. All too often people have used the Bible to oppress people and further their own interests.

People have used what the Bible says to:
Fuel the inquisition
Oppose interracial marriage
Opress women and deny basic rights
Go to war
Condemn gays
Corrupt the church
Foster materialism
etc. I could go on and on.

I believe that since all of these go counter to the nature of God (which is LOVE), they cannot be in agreement with the Bible. I have enough humility to say that I cannot understand God fully. And though I do not believe that we can change God's Word to suit our own needs, we also cannot put our own interpretation on it and force other people to adhere to our own interpretation. To do so is none less than idolatry. It is when I put myself above God.

I totally agree with you that the Word of God is more important than the laws of the nation. However, since people have so abused God's Word and used it for their own personal gain or to reinforce their own prejudices, I feel it is necessary that we do not allow any one religious point of view to have dominance in our nation.

Sorry for the defensive tone of this post. I get upset when I feel that people are taking the Bible and twisting it to support their own opinions. I value God's Word highly and hate to see it misused.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[BruceChris]

"Whatever some people believe the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American."

Your quotation seems to be saying that to be a Good American is to be more expressive of Unconditional Love than the Bible, the "Word of God" is. (We should only be so lucky.)

Do you believe in an all-forgiving God of Unconditional Love? If you cannot say that, then perhaps it is your understanding of the Bible, and of God that needs some work.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[alakazoom87]

"Whatever some people believe the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American."

Your quotation seems to be saying that to be a Good American is to be more expressive of Unconditional Love than the Bible, the "Word of God" is. (We should only be so lucky.)

Do you believe in an all-forgiving God of Unconditional Love? If you cannot say that, then perhaps it is your understanding of the Bible, and of God that needs some work.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

I was basically saying that the website says that it is better to hold to the US Constitution than it is to hold to God's word, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

[alakazoom87]

"A careful look at all scripture references refering to homosexuality causes one to see that the Bible does speak against rape, opression. taking advantage of others sexually, using sex for monetary gain, idolatry. Never does it speak against loving monoganmous homosexual relationships."

Actually Paul puts all of those in the same category of being "wicked" in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

[u-dog]

I was basically saying that the website says that it is better to hold to the US Constitution than it is to hold to God's word, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

The US Constitution is the Supreme Law of this land. By which is meant that all other laws passed by the Federal legislature and signed by the president as well as all the state legislatures are governed by this law. The intention and purpose of the Constitution is to protect the states against the power of the federal government, the small states from the power of the large ones, all minorities from the power of the majority, the individual from the power of the state, and to protect the religious freedom of all persons from the power of the state AND from the religious beliefs of OTHER persons.

Given this understanding of the Constitution, the answer to your question is YES YES YES!!!! It is MUCH BETTER to hold to the US constitution than it is to hold any one persons or groups UNDERSTANDING of what the Bible says. IT is better for YOU it is better for ME it is better for the Gospel.

THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST HAS THRIVED IN THIS COUNTRY AS NOWHERE ELSE PRECISELY because we have held to the US Constitution rather than to what somebody thinks the Gospel is.

And if you or anyone else attempts to replace this constitutional democracy with a Christian Theocracy that is ruled by the Bible, Little old Gay Christian American Me will be manning the barricades against you !!:eek::smashy:

[u-dog]

"A careful look at all scripture references refering to homosexuality causes one to see that the Bible does speak against rape, opression. taking advantage of others sexually, using sex for monetary gain, idolatry. Never does it speak against loving monoganmous homosexual relationships."

Actually Paul puts all of those in the same category of being "wicked" in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Matthew, What are the Greek words that Paul uses to "put all of those in the same catagory" ? And what is the Greek word that you are translating as "wicked"? in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

[andrewlittle]

Matthew, What are the Greek words that Paul uses to "put all of those in the same catagory" ? And what is the Greek word that you are translating as "wicked"? in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

Evidently he takes the NIV as the literal word of God, since it translates adikoi to "wicked". Oddly enough, in most other translations adikoi it translates as "the unjust" or "unbelievers". In other places in which the various noun forms of adikoi appear, it is translated in the NIV as evildoer(s), dishonest, wicked, and even unjust, unrighteous and unbeliever. It seems that the same Greek word can mean almost whatever you want it to, at least if you wrote the NIV.

[Daniel]

Now, the above quotation (like many others on this website) saddens me. Putting the fussing aside about whether or not being a homosexual Christian is an oxymoron or not. Look at what the above quotation is saying! The above quotation is saying that the United States Constitution supercedes what the Bible, the word of God, has to say. Are the forefathers of this nation more wise than the apostles themselves? I think not.

Read the Bible for what it says, not what you want it to say.


Let's here it for the Consititution, shall we? The document - along with the Bill of Rights- which protects everyone from the tryanny of those who would place their own will- and call it God's- above the life breath of their fellow citizens.

I'm so glad our forefathers had the foresight to foresee the need for separation of Church and State. They were wise indeed.

More wise that the apostles?

Only a grossly misinformed person would equate the Constitution with the Bible.

[tpdncr4christ]

Before I get started, let me say one thing. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, as my Lord and savior. The Bible is the word of God.

...

Read the Bible for what it says, not what you want it to say.

I agree with you here alakazoom. The bible is indeed the word of god. But, if we were to read the bible for what it says then we ought to just declare ourselves gods. Don't believe me? Look up Psalm 82:6. it says, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

See... we shouldn't read the Bible for what it says, that would just be too difficult, not to mention hypocritical and blasphemous.

[alakazoom87]

The US Constitution is the Supreme Law of this land. By which is meant that all other laws passed by the Federal legislature and signed by the president as well as all the state legislatures are governed by this law. The intention and purpose of the Constitution is to protect the states against the power of the federal government, the small states from the power of the large ones, all minorities from the power of the majority, the individual from the power of the state, and to protect the religious freedom of all persons from the power of the state AND from the religious beliefs of OTHER persons.

Given this understanding of the Constitution, the answer to your question is YES YES YES!!!! It is MUCH BETTER to hold to the US constitution than it is to hold any one persons or groups UNDERSTANDING of what the Bible says. IT is better for YOU it is better for ME it is better for the Gospel.

THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST HAS THRIVED IN THIS COUNTRY AS NOWHERE ELSE PRECISELY because we have held to the US Constitution rather than to what somebody thinks the Gospel is.

And if you or anyone else attempts to replace this constitutional democracy with a Christian Theocracy that is ruled by the Bible, Little old Gay Christian American Me will be manning the barricades against you !!:eek::smashy:

You have missed my point. Read what I said again.

[lydiam]

Alakazoom- Ok, let's see if we can clarify and get to the heart of your concern. Help me out here. I hear you saying that you feel saddened because you believe folks here take the constitution seriously but not the Bible? Is that the issue you wanted to speak to?

[alakazoom87]

Evidently he takes the NIV as the literal word of God, since it translates adikoi to "wicked". Oddly enough, in most other translations adikoi it translates as "the unjust" or "unbelievers". In other places in which the various noun forms of adikoi appear, it is translated in the NIV as evildoer(s), dishonest, wicked, and even unjust, unrighteous and unbeliever. It seems that the same Greek word can mean almost whatever you want it to, at least if you wrote the NIV.

So your word study says that "adikoi" has been translated to mean: unjust, unbeliever, dishonest, wicked, unrighteous. Are any of these words something that you want to be labeled, I hope not. My point still stands.

[alakazoom87]

Alakazoom- Ok, let's see if we can clarify and get to the heart of your concern. Help me out here. I hear you saying that you feel saddened because you believe folks here take the constitution seriously but not the Bible? Is that the issue you wanted to speak to?

What I am saying is that this website believes that the Constitution supercedes what the Bible says.

The Constitution takes preminence over anything that the Bible says, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

The Constitutation should not supercede the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is the word of God.

[DanaH]

One of these days I'm going to create a "Religious" video game with several weapons.

"My Bible Says"
"The Bible IS the word of God, and is therefore infallible"

I sometimes wonder what the bible would say if we took out all the numbers.

Somebody tell me why we wast time with people who start this type of string.

Can you name other Religious weapons?

[tpdncr4christ]

What I am saying is that this website believes that the Constitution supercedes what the Bible says.

The Constitution takes preminence over anything that the Bible says, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

The Constitutation should not supercede the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is the word of God.

The Bible is the word of God. But this is not a country of God. Do not think that because you are Christian, or that because the majority of our forefathers were Christian you have any right to demote the constitution. This is supposed to be a country free of religious oppression, full of a plethora of religious orientations, not a country destined or ruled by God. Regardless of what you believe this is a country based in freedom, defined in freedom, and ruled by freedom. If you wish to live in God's land move to Israel.

So unless you are saying we should create a religious Judeo-Christian Theocracy, I would suggest you move on because no one here is going to listen to you.

[lydiam]

What I am saying is that this website believes... The Constitution takes preminence over anything that the Bible says, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

Before I start in, I just want us to get on the same page about a little language issue. The website doesn't actually believe anything... it's just a website. You may believe that a statement you found on the website implies something. Would it be ok to use that language instead? It keeps things from getting sticky.:)

Now, let's take the quote you feel uncomfortable with...
"Whatever some people believe the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American."

Would you agree that the Bible can be interpreted in a myriad of ways? That it can be used to support many things ("Even satan can quote scripture for his purposes"). I'm going to say, from the other things you've written that you do believe the Bible can be interpreted (of course it can, right? otherwise it would be a very meaningless book, full of contradictory statements.)

So back to the quote "Whatever some people believe the Bible seems to say..."
This is not "Regardless of what the Bible says..." I could understand how THAT would make someone uncomfortable, but this is, for example if I believed that I should take Leviticus literally and so I beat my children, the fact that I BELIEVE the Bible SEEMS to tell me that I should does not mean that no one has the right to call child protective services. Are you comfortable with that? My child still has the right not to be beaten.

Similarly there are people who interpret the Bible to say that LGBT people do not deserve rights as LGBT people, such as protection from hate crimes, marriage rights, etc. But, catering to "whatever some people believe the Bible seems to say" is hurtful to me and could someday be hurtful to you.

Discrimination against a group based on an interpretation of the Bible, has happened time and time again (civil rights, interracial marriage, women's rights, etc.). The part of that phrase that I find a little hard to digest is that it's un-American... unfortunately, it is the story of America to discriminate based on someone's interpretation of the Bible.

It's not that I think the constitution trumps the Bible. It's that I think no one's particular interpretation of the Bible trumps my, and your, rights.

[Angeleliza41]

I remember reading the passage you quoted. I am new forums, so I could be mistaken, however the content around this was a TV talk show attack. The person, perportedly a Minister said that all LGBT should be killed. When asked if he would pull the trigger the man said "No, that would be the job of the Government to kill us. It seems to me that there could be no better reason to have the Secular Law of the land handy.
As for, the Constitution superceding the Bible, that is not what was being discussed. I might add that when asked about Secular Government, Jesus said to Give to Ceasar what was Ceasar's, and give to God what was God's. Now this is a powerful statement, because this "Secular" Government he spoke of was run by someone claiming godhood, namely Ceasar.
If our Secular Government wants to protect my right not to be murdered on the street, so be it.
I personal will give to Ceasar what is due Ceasar, while I am grateful for the freedom to worship the One with no Name, the God of Abraham. Governments come and go, but my faith in God remains unchanged.
Angel Eliza, Minister of the Church of Thomas

[u-dog]

You have missed my point. Read what I said again.

Ok... I reread it. It still implies the same thing to me. Perhaps you should take another go.

[Sherrie Z]

One of these days I'm going to create a "Religious" video game with several weapons.

"My Bible Says"
"The Bible IS the word of God, and is therefore infallible"

I sometimes wonder what the bible would say if we took out all the numbers.

Somebody tell me why we wast time with people who start this type of string.

Can you name other Religious weapons?


LOL, Dana! : )

This reminds me ... a few years back I was involved with a left-leaning political website where those of opposing persuasions would frequently pop in and try to start arguments. When these "trolls" appeared, the regulars would often post reminders such as "please don't feed the trolls" to ask people not to bother to respond to these provocative posts, but it was too tempting for many not to respond.

Finally, the website came up with a great response when trolls would appear trying to start arguments, whether directly or under the guise of supposed serious discussion. It was frequently announced that whenever a troll would post any comment, the regulars would automatically start making donations to the primary cause of the website. So when trolls appeared, they knew that their posts would cause an instant spike in donations. Whenever trolls would post ... instead of responding directly to them, the regulars would start posting comments such as "Ca-ching!" ... or "I just donated again" ... and so on, to indicate that they were making donations in honor of the troll's post. It worked. After that, there were fewer trolls showing up to start arguments, and fewer direct responses to the trolls, other than the donations. I loved this idea. Maybe we could try that here. Hee Hee Hee. : )

[sjbouza]

The Bible is the word of God. But this is not a country of God. Do not think that because you are Christian, or that because the majority of our forefathers were Christian you have any right to demote the constitution. This is supposed to be a country free of religious oppression, full of a plethora of religious orientations, not a country destined or ruled by God. Regardless of what you believe this is a country based in freedom, defined in freedom, and ruled by freedom. If you wish to live in God's land move to Israel.

So unless you are saying we should create a religious Judeo-Christian Theocracy, I would suggest you move on because no one here is going to listen to you.

This is one of the truest statements I have ever read. Not to take away from what anyone else has said here or in other threads. This country in no way is a Christian nation no matter the Christian community wants to believe or make others believe. I consider myself a Christian, however, I dont believe that God wants us to force our beliefs upon others. Didnt He give us "free will" to choose? I dont remember ever reading anywhere in the Bible that says we are to "go into the world and make them believe the same way that I do." No, we are to tell the world of the gospel, and if they choose to accept it then fine, if not then fine.

The Constitution is the supreme law of THIS COUNTRY. The Bible is the supreme law of Christianity. Those are two totally different things. You cannot combine the two and have freedom, it IS NOT POSSIBLE.

I know I am gonna get kicked for what I am about to say...however. Christianity STOPPED being about Christ a very long time ago. It is no longer about the gospel of our Lord and Savior. It is now about "showmenship" and money. It is about who has the bigger and more elaborate church. It is about who can influence politics more. Organized religion has lost its way somewhere along the line. Here is the proof in a question. Why do we need a multi million dollar building to worship God in? Why does one need ornate and elaborate buildings for gathering together? Didnt Christ tell His disciples to sell all they had, give it to the poor and follow Him? (os something to that affect) So how can one justify spending millions upon millions of dollars to build a structure? Does this glorify God in some way? I dont think He is sitting up in Heaven saying, "wow, that is a beautiful church, They really love me because they spent more money than the last church did. I am going to bless them more now." No, I can see Him shaking His head and saying, "that money could have gone to feed my starving children. That money could have helped my children that are suffering at the hands of evil. Why didnt you spend that money to glorify me instead of yourself?"

Now I am not trying to say I "know" what God is thinking, that was just used as an illistration. Organized religion has become more about money than about the love of Christ. So when you say that this country values the Constitution over the Bible, I say wonderful. Because it is the people of this country that have perverted the Bible and used it to gain wealth and power over the weak and helpless. If it wasnt for the Constitution we wouldnt have the country that we have today.

Look at it this way. If we were to throw out the Constitution, well not throw it out but place the Bible as more important or the "supreme law of the land" then what would we have...CHAOS!!! Why do I say that? Because then you would have the problem that the Christian religion has now. What religious sect is the right one? Who has the "correct" interpretation of what the Bible says? With the Bible as the "supreme law" now we have civil wars between the different religions. They would all be fighting for supremacy. So what religion do you want to be forced to follow? What beliefs are you willing to give up because you lost the "holy war". Look at all the countries that are "ruled by religion", they are constantly fighting. The different sects are always at war with one another because of their beliefs. This is what will come to this country if the Bible becomes supreme to the Constitution. If that is the type of country that one wishes to live in then I feel for you. Because it will get to a point of "believe this way or die". Does that sound like freedom to you.

The Bible may give you freedom from sin, but religion will never give you freedom from anything.

[tpdncr4christ]

I know I am gonna get kicked for what I am about to say...however. Christianity STOPPED being about Christ a very long time ago.

The only thing you will get sir is a great big pat on the back! So true! So true!

Amen to that.

[antonyh]

What I am saying is that this website believes that the Constitution supercedes what the Bible says.

The Constitution takes preminence over anything that the Bible says, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

The Constitutation should not supercede the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is the word of God.

Raising the Bible above the Constitution assumes that you live in a country where everyone wants to be an Evangelical Christian. We live in a country filled with all kinds of different beliefs (even within the Christian space). Ideally we want everyone to feel at home in the good old USA. The Constitution provides a protected place for you to view the Bible as the inerrant word of God. It also provides a protected place for Muslims to worship Allah. We're also hoping that the vision of equality in the Constitution eventually provides a fair place for LGBT people.

[DanaH]

"Let's hear it for the Consititution, shall we? The document - along with the Bill of Rights- which protects everyone from the tryanny of those who would place their own will- and call it God's- above the life breath of their fellow citizens.

I'm so glad our forefathers had the foresight to foresee the need for separation of Church and State. They were wise indeed."


I would take another look at what Daniel said (above), I think he said it beautifully.

I used to believe as you did, that there should be no separation of church and state. I can now see the vital need for it.

It appears we've given you enough rope...... This great country, and I do love my country, for all it's faults, and all it's freedoms, allows us to worship as we want, and free speech, etc... etc... If nothing else, it allows us to grow in our spirituality by allowing us to question, and to challenge what we've been told. Wow!! I think you need to do more questioning and less preaching. I've been where you are, and I truly hope you allow yourself to grow.

[tdogg]

Ok, 'zoom87, let's see where shall we start?

Hmmmm, do you eat shrimp? Do you wear clothes of mixed fibers? What do you think of women who cut their hair?? Wear make up? Speak in church? What about divorce and remarriage? Just for starters....

Do you not think we've heard all of this before and then some?

Yes what everyone else said - this country is founded on the US Constitution NOT the Bible. Sorry, our government has nothing to do with the Bible. By the way, what version exactly is the inerrant, accurate and true Word of God? Which version do you use, and how do you know it's THE one?



I know I am gonna get kicked for what I am about to say...however. Christianity STOPPED being about Christ a very long time ago. It is no longer about the gospel of our Lord and Savior. It is now about "showmenship" and money. It is about who has the bigger and more elaborate church. It is about who can influence politics more. Organized religion has lost its way somewhere along the line. Here is the proof in a question. Why do we need a multi million dollar building to worship God in? Why does one need ornate and elaborate buildings for gathering together? Didnt Christ tell His disciples to sell all they had, give it to the poor and follow Him? (os something to that affect) So how can one justify spending millions upon millions of dollars to build a structure? Does this glorify God in some way? I dont think He is sitting up in Heaven saying, "wow, that is a beautiful church, They really love me because they spent more money than the last church did. I am going to bless them more now." No, I can see Him shaking His head and saying, "that money could have gone to feed my starving children. That money could have helped my children that are suffering at the hands of evil. Why didnt you spend that money to glorify me instead of yourself?"

The Bible may give you freedom from sin, but religion will never give you freedom from anything.

So true Scott!! Well said!

[u-dog]

LOL, Dana! : )

... instead of responding directly to them, the regulars would start posting comments such as "Ca-ching!" ... or "I just donated again" ... and so on, to indicate that they were making donations in honor of the troll's post. It worked. After that, there were fewer trolls showing up to start arguments, and fewer direct responses to the trolls, other than the donations. I loved this idea. Maybe we could try that here. Hee Hee Hee. : )

This MIGHT have unintended consequences however. Jeff Lutes and Jamie McDaniels might start writing really annoying posts under psuedonyms in order to get us to contribute to Soulforce ;)

[sjbouza]

I would have to say the chicken came first.:lol::eek:

Sorry, just a little totally random humor there. Was feeling I just needed to do that for some reason...:weee::weee:

[BrentRichards]

My own little box:

Inside: Little me with all the answers.


Outside: The rest of the world that doesn't have a clue


Ok, so the view's not much, but I'm COMFORTABLE here, right? Ah, this is the life.

Please don't feed the trolls.

[DanaH]

What I am saying is that this website believes that the Constitution supercedes what the Bible says.

The Constitution takes preminence over anything that the Bible says, whether or not you believe homosexuality is a sin or not.

The Constitutation should not supercede the Bible. Why? Because the Bible is the word of God.

The Constitution and the Bible are two completely different things. In terms of trumping, ther aren't in the same game.

I'm not sure what preminence is, other than the context in which you've used it. So, are you here to tell us all how wrong we are or to learn and improve your understanding, or to save us all, or what?

I would offer that those who wrote the constitution came here because of religious opression. They didn't want the "state" to tell them what to believe or how to believe. And before we get into the details of just why they came here, I hope we can agree that was one reason. It seems unbelievable that we're having this conversation today! In the wake of 911, in the presence of current debates about war. What is this war about? It's about religion.

I guess, like the two Jehovah's witnesses who just walked by, I just need to tell you, thank you for your dedication, and that I appreciate your belief and your right to believe it. However, I do disagree. Thank you very much.

This would be the point where you would say, "Thank you for your time.", and Politely leave.

[alakazoom87]

I have not been stressing my beliefs on what the Bible says.

I am merely bringing up the issue that this website says that the Constitution has preeminance over the Bible.

If i was a homosexual saying that the Bible shouldn't be superceded by the constitution, would you believe me?

If I became a homosexual would I become more righteous in your eyes?

[keltic63]

I have not been stressing my beliefs on what the Bible says.

you stated that you thought it was sad that this website emphasizes the importance of the constitution over YOUR interpretation of the Bible. If that is not what you meant to say, you need to restate your opinion, give us further explanation of your original post.


I am merely bringing up the issue that this website says that the Constitution has preeminance over the Bible.

That has already been responded to in this thread. Please take a moment and read through all the responses.


If i was a homosexual saying that the Bible shouldn't be superceded by the constitution, would you believe me? one's orientation makes no difference in the statement that you are trying to make. the constitution is what allows you to hold the Bible in such high regard. In this country, the constitution gives you the freedom to believe as little or as much of the Bible as you desire.

If I became a homosexual would I become more righteous in your eyes?

How does one "become a homosexual" ? is there a training course? an online master's degree? a correspondence course?

Again, one's orientation does not automatically give a person more or less credibility. This particular statement by you, indicates that you have some prejudice; it seems that you do place some importance on the orientation of the person making the statement. Is this true? Do you only accept the words, advice, criticisms of straight people? (of course, I'm assuming you are straight, if that's not the case, accept my apology)

[u-dog]

[QUOTE]If I became a homosexual would I become more righteous in your eyes?

No... not more righteous...but... Wow... how exactly would you do that? I tried for 30 years to become a heterosexual and couldn't ever seem to pull it off

[lydiam]

I have not been stressing my beliefs on what the Bible says.

I am merely bringing up the issue that this website says that the Constitution has preeminance over the Bible.

If i was a homosexual saying that the Bible shouldn't be superceded by the constitution, would you believe me?

If I became a homosexual would I become more righteous in your eyes?
Hi Matthew. No, nobody here minds your sexual orientation. That's why we're all here, because this is a place that doesn't mind anyone's sexual orientation! :) So, I think we've established that your concern is that you interpret that quote we've been discussing to say that the constitution trumps the Bible. We heard you. We responded. Sure, some responded to some undertones of your beliefs, I'll give you that, but I think some people have done pretty well addressing your concern. I don't think there's much further explaination we can give you on that one.

Some of us here are Christians, some are all kinds of other things. Maybe you didn't know that part. We all have differing beliefs about and/ or interpretations of the Bible (and the constitution too, I'm sure). As far as the Bible and the Constitution go, I wouldn't worry about them going to war with eachother... they're documents. They can't. People can. It's not so much "what the Bible says" or "what the website says," it's your interpretations, judgements, etc. We can talk about Biblical interpretation, we can talk about personal beliefs, but the constitution is the constitution... it protects people of all faiths, genders, heights, races, sexual orientations, etc. The Bible is the Bible... it's a book that contains the stories and lessons of Christianity. I appreciate them both and "they" aren't in a competition in my mind.

[sjbouza]

I am merely bringing up the issue that this website says that the Constitution has preeminance over the Bible.

Yes, I think most if not all people have gotten that point. What you are failing to see is that we are telling you why that is the way it should be, If it wasnt for the Constitution you wouldnt have the right of reading that Bible. I think it is you who are failing to see the explanations that are being put forth to you.

I will say it again, if this country was under the supreme rule of the Bible then it would be total chaos. I will ask you again, what beliefs would you be willing to give up? Which organized religion has the correct interpretation of what the Bible says? Which of the organized religions will be the "supreme religion" and the only one that we can follow?
Cant you see the problems in that? How many different sects of Christianity do we have in this country? If we have the Bible as the "supreme rule" then we must also have only one religion. If you dont have just one religious belief this country WILL BE THROWN INTO WAR! There is no argument against that fact. It has been proven out through history that it will happen.

Again, this country is not in any way, shape or form a Christian nation. For proof of that please google Treaty of Tripoli. It is plainly stated in that document that America is in no way a Christian nation. We are a melting pot of different religions and beliefs. So you are telling others that dont believe in Christ or what the Bible says that they now have to forsake their religious beliefs and follow something they dont believe in? Is that what you think America is about?

Your sexuality has nothing to do with whether people agree or disagree with you. I am a little put off offended even that you even brought that up. It seems to me that you are saying that homosexuals cant understand what heterosexuals are talking about. Whether that is what you were meaning or not that is how I took it and when I read it I was VERY offended.

The Bible should not have anything to do with anything that deals with the government or laws. It has NO PLACE there. It is a religious book that is followed by faith and faith alone. The Constitution on the other hand is a document that can be followed by pure knowledge. We know for a fact who it was written by, when it was written and what it is saying. The Bible on the other hand while we may know who wrote the books of the Bible and approximately when they were written, we cannot prove anything beyond that. No one can "prove" that it was "inspired" by God. No one can "prove" that it is nothing more than a bunch of stories and rules for living that were put together by a bunch of people with no divine attributes what so ever. It is by faith alone. Then you have the interpretations of the Bible. Ten different people can read the same verses and come up with ten different interpretations. So who has the correct one? That is the problem. There can only be one that is right. So with that in thought, there can be only one organized Christian religion that is right. When you can tell everyone who is right and who is wrong then maybe. But until then I am glad this country isnt run by the Bible.

[tdogg]

Yes what everyone else said - this country is founded on the US Constitution NOT the Bible. Sorry, our government has nothing to do with the Bible. By the way, what version exactly is the inerrant, accurate and true Word of God? Which version do you use, and how do you know it's THE one?


Alakazoom87 - so, any answers to the above questions yet?

[alakazoom87]

Yes, I think most if not all people have gotten that point. What you are failing to see is that we are telling you why that is the way it should be, If it wasnt for the Constitution you wouldnt have the right of reading that Bible. I think it is you who are failing to see the explanations that are being put forth to you.

I will say it again, if this country was under the supreme rule of the Bible then it would be total chaos. I will ask you again, what beliefs would you be willing to give up? Which organized religion has the correct interpretation of what the Bible says? Which of the organized religions will be the "supreme religion" and the only one that we can follow?
Cant you see the problems in that? How many different sects of Christianity do we have in this country? If we have the Bible as the "supreme rule" then we must also have only one religion. If you dont have just one religious belief this country WILL BE THROWN INTO WAR! There is no argument against that fact. It has been proven out through history that it will happen.

Again, this country is not in any way, shape or form a Christian nation. For proof of that please google Treaty of Tripoli. It is plainly stated in that document that America is in no way a Christian nation. We are a melting pot of different religions and beliefs. So you are telling others that dont believe in Christ or what the Bible says that they now have to forsake their religious beliefs and follow something they dont believe in? Is that what you think America is about?

Your sexuality has nothing to do with whether people agree or disagree with you. I am a little put off offended even that you even brought that up. It seems to me that you are saying that homosexuals cant understand what heterosexuals are talking about. Whether that is what you were meaning or not that is how I took it and when I read it I was VERY offended.

The Bible should not have anything to do with anything that deals with the government or laws. It has NO PLACE there. It is a religious book that is followed by faith and faith alone. The Constitution on the other hand is a document that can be followed by pure knowledge. We know for a fact who it was written by, when it was written and what it is saying. The Bible on the other hand while we may know who wrote the books of the Bible and approximately when they were written, we cannot prove anything beyond that. No one can "prove" that it was "inspired" by God. No one can "prove" that it is nothing more than a bunch of stories and rules for living that were put together by a bunch of people with no divine attributes what so ever. It is by faith alone. Then you have the interpretations of the Bible. Ten different people can read the same verses and come up with ten different interpretations. So who has the correct one? That is the problem. There can only be one that is right. So with that in thought, there can be only one organized Christian religion that is right. When you can tell everyone who is right and who is wrong then maybe. But until then I am glad this country isnt run by the Bible.


Let's just say I read through the first two paragraphs of your post and realized that:

I don't need a government to tell me whether or not I am allowed to read my Bible or practice my faith in Christ.

Some people have gotten too comfortable with their freedoms that the US has given to them.

[tpdncr4christ]

You have gotten on my nerve, which is difficult to do. As I have said before, I will reiterate now, if you want to live in a nation blessed by God, go to Israel. If you want the freedom not to worry about oppression continue to live here, but do not oppress your beliefs on any one else. You can preach, you can express, and you can even witness your beliefs, but the second you force them on other people in this country you surrender all your freedoms and all your rights.

Do not come into a forum like this and rant because you feel the need. Disagreement within informative and progressive dialogue is one thing, but coming into this place, which many of us consider to be a home, and preaching to us that our belief's are wrong is wrong. It is a belief because it is something we believe. It is not fact.

I write poetry. I've written several poems about anger and fear expressed at my parents about how they reacted to my coming out. I posted one of my better poems on this forum, Your Mask, and got the most interesting interpretations of it. Someone thought I was talking to God, someone else felt as if I was talking to parts of myself. That is what makes my poetry powerful.

That is what makes the Bible so powerful. Not that it is written in stone, but the fact that it can be interpreted into so many different things. The fact that God can speak through the Bible to each and every person on this planet in a different way through that book is a miracle in itself. Faith journey's are like fingerprints, no two are the same. The bible is a tool used by God to reach us, it is not the law of the land. Do not confuse the two.

[alakazoom87]

"It is a belief because it is something we believe. It is not fact."

Did you just say that you choose to believe in something that is not a fact?

[lydiam]

:
I don't need a government to tell me whether or not I am allowed to read my Bible or practice my faith in Christ.

If you truly believe that, there's no reason you would need to ask if the Constitution trumps the Bible. It's fine, read the Bible, practice your faith. Others will read their holy books and practice their faiths. I was hoping you would reveal some deep seated curiosity or desire for discussion, but this is just us discussing and you restating your original thought with no development or consideration of what we've said... which is a monologue... so, I'm done with this thread. Wish you all the best and if you ever really want to dialogue, that I don't mind doing. God bless you.

[tpdncr4christ]

"It is a belief because it is something we believe. It is not fact."

Did you just say that you choose to believe in something that is not a fact?

Yes I did.

I believe in something much more than fact. I believe in a righteous and terrible Creator who designed us to love Him. I have no proof to support my belief, there is no tangible evidence that what I believe is true and fact, that evidence left the earth 2,000 years ago.

I don't need fact to tell me I was designed to love God. I don't need fact to tell me God loves me. Fact is a truth known by actual experience or observation, and I have never seen Christ face to face. I have witnessed His finger prints, I have seen His glory, but I cannot bring proof to it. I have no support tangible or logical that proves that the God I believe in is the God of the universe. But I still believe. I have no proof of my God. But I still believe. I cannot show you the God I believe in. But I still believe.

I don't need fact to believe in God. God supersedes fact.

Now, if you're done attacking me with you're witty remarks, I'd suggest you further dissect my last post and comprehend what I was actually trying to tell you, rather than picking apart phrases to try and devalue my words. Please, respond to the entirety of what I am saying, not just what serves your purpose.

[keltic63]

Let's just say I read through the first two paragraphs of your post and realized that:

I don't need a government to tell me whether or not I am allowed to read my Bible or practice my faith in Christ.




Now, if you're done attacking me with you're witty remarks, I'd suggest you further dissect my last post and comprehend what I was actually trying to tell you, rather than picking apart phrases to try and devalue my words. Please, respond to the entirety of what I am saying, not just what serves your purpose.

alakazoom, if you're going to participate in discussions here, particularly discussion that you have initiated, please display the courtesy of actually reading the entire responses of those members who are willing to engage in discussion with you.

[scott snedeker]

I don't need a government to tell me whether or not I am allowed to read my Bible or practice my faith in Christ.

Some people have gotten too comfortable with their freedoms that the US has given to them.

Sweetie, I am not a christian and neither are millions of people in America, and billions of people in the world. If you believe that I am too comfortable with my pagan spirituality, then have you considered that I may consider you too comfortable with your belief of "inerrancy" of the Bible?

The constitution guarantees that I do not have the right to force you to be pagan.

Think about that for a minute.

What if religious freedom were not guaranteed by the constitution?

Then you have Iraq, Iran, and other theocratic nations where thousands have been slaughtered in God's name because their government's purpose is to carry out the leaders interpretation of God's will.

I can't force you to be pagan because the constitution protects you. Radical extremist "muslims" don't have the authority any duty to "honor kill" you because the constitution protects you.

It is not that the constitution supercedes God's will. It supercedes human interpretation of God's will. Whether you interpret it from the Bible, Koran, no belief, or from nature-based spirituality (paganism)

[Sherrie Z]

This MIGHT have unintended consequences however. Jeff Lutes and Jamie McDaniels might start writing really annoying posts under psuedonyms in order to get us to contribute to Soulforce ;)

LOL!!! : ) Hmmm, now there's a good idea ... wink wink ...

[sjbouza]

Some people have gotten too comfortable with their freedoms that the US has given to them.

Well, I am glad that we can get comfortable with the freedoms that we have. I think it is the Christian religion that has gotten to comfortable with the freedoms that they are trying to force their beliefs down other peoples throats. Where do you get off? From everything that you have written you seem to want a nation where you can only have the Christian faith. Who are you? Are you Christ come back? Did God give you some special knowledge that he has given no one else?

You havent listened to anything that anyone has said in this thread. You have done nothing but argue the same small phrase. In fact sir this is a free country and you have the right to what you think as well as everyone else has that same right. Obviously you dont want to learn anything or look at what other people have to say about the issue. There has been post after post explaining the issue and you just blow it off. You have no desire for dialog, you are just here to argue your point which has no merit.

[u-dog]

Let's just say I read through the first two paragraphs of your post and realized that:

I don't need a government to tell me whether or not I am allowed to read my Bible or practice my faith in Christ.

That's right zoomboy! No one needs that! And the thing that makes sure that no government WILL tell you whether or not you are allowed to read your Bible.... is THE US CONSTITUTION. Without the constitution you would have governments lining up to tell you ALL KINDS OF THINGs you are allowed and not allowed to do.

Some people have gotten too comfortable with their freedoms that the US has given to them.
This is ALSO correct, Zoomer, and at the top of that list are conservative Christians of a certain stripe. They take their religious liberty SO FOR GRANTED that they feel totally free to shred the Constitution whenever it is inconvenient to them, and feel free to impose their religious views in ways that deny others THE SAME religious liberty.


It beats me why we are over in Iraq looking for enemies of the UNITED STATES when we have plenty of constitution shredding enemies of freedom right here in our own country ( like our illustrious President for example! That man belongs at Guantanamo if anyone does!)

[BrentRichards]

Ahem! Ahem!

[tpdncr4christ]

Ahem! Ahem!

?

I'm confused...

[BrentRichards]

Do not feed the trolls

[tdogg]

You have gotten on my nerve, which is difficult to do.

That is what makes the Bible so powerful. Not that it is written in stone, but the fact that it can be interpreted into so many different things. The fact that God can speak through the Bible to each and every person on this planet in a different way through that book is a miracle in itself. Faith journey's are like fingerprints, no two are the same. The bible is a tool used by God to reach us, it is not the law of the land. Do not confuse the two.

Wow Zoom87, if you've gotten on Austin's nerves, you've really done it. Austin is the easiest-going person on the forums.

I agree totally with what Austin says above - even one verse in the Bible could mean something different to us each time we read it. Depends on our immediate situation (if any), and where are prayers and meditation lead us in regards to that scripture. Surely you don't believe the Bible is to be read and personally interpretated without any prayer or meditation???

Hey, still waiting for answers to my questions (see my 2 posts above)...

[tpdncr4christ]

Hey, still waiting for answers to my questions (see my 2 posts above)...

Here's the trick Tdogg, you just have to say something that he can twist to make him respond. He can't give you a straight response... haha, how ironic. :cool: :love: :D

[tpdncr4christ]

Check it out... I'm sure you've already heard this... just felt like reiterating some words from your distant childhood memories.

You think I'm an ignorant savage
And you've been so many places
I guess it must be so
But still I cannot see
If the savage one is me
Now can there be so much that you don't know?
You don't know ...

You think the only people who are people
Are the people who look and think like you
But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger
You'll learn things you never knew you never knew

Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

[tdogg]

Here's the trick Tdogg, you just have to say something that he can twist to make him respond. He can't give you a straight response... haha, how ironic. :cool: :love: :D

Oh, so that's it! Sheesh, I'm kind of straightforward and not sure I can come up with a version to twist....I'll see what I can do! :lol::rofl::p

[dewdrop_world]

Do not feed the trolls

Quite agree. Sometimes the best thing to do is to walk away.
James

[alakazoom87]

Ok, 'zoom87, let's see where shall we start?

Hmmmm, do you eat shrimp? Do you wear clothes of mixed fibers? What do you think of women who cut their hair?? Wear make up? Speak in church? What about divorce and remarriage? Just for starters....

Do you not think we've heard all of this before and then some?

Yes what everyone else said - this country is founded on the US Constitution NOT the Bible. Sorry, our government has nothing to do with the Bible. By the way, what version exactly is the inerrant, accurate and true Word of God? Which version do you use, and how do you know it's THE one?



So true Scott!! Well said!

I use all sorts of translations; such as NKJV, NASB, NIV, etc. I'll start off my answer with a question.

Imagine living in China where the Communist Government doesn't allow the distribution of Bibles. Here in America there are organizations that are trying to get Bibles into China. Imagine being one of those Chinese people who finally get their hands on a Bible, pretend its a NKJ version (doesn't really matter). Is that person not reading the Word of God? Or are they reading lies?

I believe in an omnipotent God that can do amazing things, such as distribute His word to people that have never had the chance to read it.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness,

[alakazoom87]

Check it out... I'm sure you've already heard this... just felt like reiterating some words from your distant childhood memories.



Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

I can tell that you have already judged my character even though I haven't really said much.

-Do you believe that I'm a hot headed Christian that doesn't know why he believes what he believes.
-Do you believe you are philosophically superior to me perhaps?
-Do you believe that I have never thought about what it would be like to be in someone elses shoes?

[tpdncr4christ]

I can tell that you have already judged my character even though I haven't really said much.

-Do you believe that I'm a hot headed Christian that doesn't know why he believes what he believes.
-Do you believe you are philosophically superior to me perhaps?
-Do you believe that I have never thought about what it would be like to be in someone elses shoes?

No... I just think you should watch more Disney. It's good for the heart, AND for the soul.

[alakazoom87]

To be honest, all of my friends have Disneyland Passes and go all the time. However, I haven't been there in 10 years.

[u-dog]

To be honest, all of my friends have Disneyland Passes and go all the time. However, I haven't been there in 10 years.

Well then! That solves that mystery. I believe that we have gotten right to the heart of the problem. Way to go Austin. Such an incisive mind you have!