The language that we use

[Vanessa White]

Progo got me thinking over on the fagbug thread: What words do you find that are absolutely offensive in terms of describing a person with a LGBTQ identity? What ones do you prefer to use, or "take back" for empowerment's sake?

As a lesbian, I really don't care for the word "dyke" AT ALL. I do, however, like the word, "Queer", because it feels like a sense of pride when I say it in an activism, militant sort of odd way. And, I totally dislike the word "homosexual", way too clinical for me.

Any thoughts friends??? :love::love::love::love::love::love:

[u-dog]

Progo got me thinking over on the fagbug thread: What words do you find that are absolutely offensive in terms of describing a person with a LGBTQ identity? What ones do you prefer to use, or "take back" for empowerment's sake?

As a lesbian, I really don't care for the word "dyke" AT ALL. I do, however, like the word, "Queer", because it feels like a sense of pride when I say it in an activism, militant sort of odd way. And, I totally dislike the word "homosexual", way too clinical for me.

Any thoughts friends??? :love::love::love::love::love::love:

I'm totally with you on "Queer" and "Homosexual" Queer is empowering and "in your face" . "Homosexual" sounds like a G___ D___ disease. "Gay" is good. I like "Dyke" and know lots of Lesbians who do also, but... I'm not one so I bow to your feeling. I won't call you a Dyke even with deep respect and affection! (I try never to piss off Lesbians... Way too scarey)

As I tried to say on the "fagbug" thread I think the ONLY way to turn the enormous energy of these epithets to the good is to embrace them.

Dave

[Zerbie]

Progo got me thinking over on the fagbug thread: What words do you find that are absolutely offensive in terms of describing a person with a LGBTQ identity? What ones do you prefer to use, or "take back" for empowerment's sake?

As a lesbian, I really don't care for the word "dyke" AT ALL. I do, however, like the word, "Queer", because it feels like a sense of pride when I say it in an activism, militant sort of odd way. And, I totally dislike the word "homosexual", way too clinical for me.

Any thoughts friends??? :love::love::love::love::love::love:

Well now, hey this is a fun topic!

Horror #1: the F word (whether spelled with 3 letters or with 6). I will always envision some guy tied up to kindling wood with a torch being held to it whenever I hear that horrible horrible word!

Horror #2: this one: f*g-h*g. Same reason as above, only now add a woman tied up nearby. On occasion, despite my dislike of the word, I have been known to admit being a bit of a f*gh*g myself. :p

I agree homosexual sounds weird. It will always remind me of the time in childhood when I went hunting through the dictionary when my parents' backs were turned, to see what was written under the spooky "H" word. Otoh, it doesn't really bother me, and sometimes I even use it. I mean, we use "heterosexual" a lot, don't we? So I might be most like to use it as a contrastive: homosexual versus heterosexual orientation.

I agree with Vanessa about the word dyke. It really doesn't click with me, even though some folks like it. When I hear "dyke" I think of a gigantic wall holding back water from coastal cities below sea level (dike).

I love the word queer. But I don't think it's "in your face." For whatever reason, I perceive that word as subtle. It conjures up for me imaginings of beautiful art, spiritual exploration, fantasy - fantasy in the sense of Lord of the Rings-type movies, not as in sexual fantasy. Can't say why. :lol: I think the Queerfolk sound like a race of characters out of Tolkein, they probably wear really beautiful flowing clothing and live in a magical city where everyone is kind and there is peace. For whatever reason, that's what "queer" says to me. :p:lol:

I love the word lesbian! No particular reason. I just think it's REALLY beautiful.

I like the word gay, too. It's so short it's cute. ;)

I hate being encumbered by the acronym LGBT. It isn't pretty. We need a word, not a bunch of letters. Like, I dunno, Rainbowfolk, or something!:rolleyes::p It's why I'm frequently guilty of just saying "gay." "Gay" community speaks better than a bunch of letters. But then there is the issue that it appears to exclude some members, especially those who are trans. I think we need a nice attractive but descriptive word to replace LGBT. I would say queer, but some members of the community in question really dislike that word.

As a scholar, I used to like: homoerotic/homoeroticism. As in, "homoeroticism in Renaissance art." Then it occured to me we never talk about "heteroeroticism." So for my last term paper, which was on homoeroticism and Franz Schubert, I tried to more often just say, "eroticism." They could see from the context that it was "homo."

[keltic63]

often, Scott and I will refer to our women friends as our "hags" eliminating the f*g part. phone rings "it's your hag" "wanna talk to her?"

we also can't let the word "straight" come out of our mouths without some kind of comment. While driving and helping each other with directions

me: go straight
scott: I tried that, it didn't work
me: go gaily forward then!

"homosexual" is too clinical. although I love it when Grace calls Will a big 'MO

I don't care for dyke. although lesbian sometimes seems to formal. like showing up at our local gay bar and seeing a large number of women (it happens occasionally) it seems odd to say "why are there so many lesbians here?" when we can just as easily say "what's with all the women here?" since it's a gay bar, it's assumed that they are lesbians.

what about "lesbo's" ? what do you think of that one?

[u-dog]

Well now, hey this is a fun topic!



As a scholar, I used to like: homoerotic/homoeroticism. As in, "homoeroticism in Renaissance art." Then it occured to me we never talk about "heteroeroticism." So for my last term paper, which was on homoeroticism and Franz Schubert, I tried to more often just say, "eroticism." They could see from the context that it was "homo."

Some of the young uns just like the word "Mo" its 33% shorter even than "gay"

The thing about "homoeroticism" that I don't like (in addition to the fact that it takes all afternoon to say) is that it focuses our identity solely on sex and I think that our glbt lives and culture are about more than just sex.

[scott snedeker]

I like "faerie" to me it means unconditional love, expression on the outside the beauty on the inside, no pressure to conform, joy, magic:magic:, like a special secret to share with the inner child of another. ;)

Radical faeries are the funnest!:rainbow::flower::cookie::sing::love:

[Zerbie]

S

The thing about "homoeroticism" that I don't like (in addition to the fact that it takes all afternoon to say) is that it focuses our identity solely on sex and I think that our glbt lives and culture are about more than just sex.

Well I was referring to contexts where it is precisely the sexuality that's being talked about as apart from orientation, sense of group belonging, or even necessarily love. Like, pics of guys fondling each other: (homo)erotic.

[Zerbie]

often, Scott and I will refer to our women friends as our "hags" eliminating the f*g part. phone rings "it's your hag" "wanna talk to her?"

Yeah, I kinda get it. I don't really like the word hag myself tho. That says to me that she's at least 115 years old, extraordinarily wizened, has a serious stoop and cane, and a wart on her nose the size of my pinkie toe. :lol:

we also can't let the word "straight" come out of our mouths without some kind of comment. While driving and helping each other with directions

me: go straight
scott: I tried that, it didn't work
me: go gaily forward then!

?

:lol:

I love opportunities like that! Of course, given my situation, the opportunities are often extraordinarily rich:

Driver: Hey Zerbie, which way is the restaurant?
Zerbie: Er, west I think.
Driver: So, should I go straight?
Zerbie: Why not? Worked for me. Of course, Steve might not like it if ya did, though.

[dsdrane]

I definitely use "'mo" to be playful, otherwise it's "gay".

I was around when we apparently took back "queer", but, then, I was also around for the "grunge" period; and, as I don't dress that way anymore (I think I did for about 5 weeks before moving on to the Tibetan phase), I feel no need to use "queer".

(So '90s.)

Besides, "queer" was the wimpy way out; if people had really wanted to defuse a nuclear-strength word, they would've tackled "fag"...or more explosive yet, of course, "faggot". Now that could have sucked some wind out of the homophobes' sails!

I do remember some cool t-shirts from the whole Queer Nation period that spelled out in big, college-block-y letters "FAG" across the chest. I loved the shirt, but it was really more for the more buff crowd, and I was such a pip-squeak at the time.

Adjectivally-speaking, I prefer the Yiddish fegulah, as in: Her son, the doctor...he's fegulah. But, then, I love Yiddish for just about anything. I really must find out what the noun version is....

My fegulah friend in architecture school liked to call our lesbian friends "beans", though I'm not sure of the spelling on that. If anyone out there takes deep umbrage with this, I plead ignorance and forgiveness...but I always thought it was super cute.

[scott snedeker]

'Mo is campy and fun.

Deuce Bigalow could do something with it--that movie cracks me up with "you ungrateful He-bitch! Now get your man-gina back to work!":lol:

how 'bout "He's my main 'Mo! So don't you be gettin' any ideas, sugar puppy!":eek:

or

Watch your PC when your in 'Mo-ville ...and with those tight jeans your wearin' you'll be known as one cool cat 'cause they'll nick name you Pria-puss

"No? nothing? Oh what the hell let's just blow up the world like we always do!"

----Dr. Evil

[kara speltz]

Progo got me thinking over on the fagbug thread: What words do you find that are absolutely offensive in terms of describing a person with a LGBTQ identity? What ones do you prefer to use, or "take back" for empowerment's sake?

As a lesbian, I really don't care for the word "dyke" AT ALL. I do, however, like the word, "Queer", because it feels like a sense of pride when I say it in an activism, militant sort of odd way. And, I totally dislike the word "homosexual", way too clinical for me.

Any thoughts friends??? :love::love::love::love::love::love:

It's funny how words are. I love the word dyke, but I had to explain to my son that it wasn't a word he could use. It got even more complicated because, he's interracial and he is (was) NEVER allowed to use the "N" word. But I did explain to him that while some blacks could use the word and not mean it in a deroggatory way, the use of the word dyke was reserved for lesbians.

To me a dyke is a strong woman. And our annual gay pride parade always leads off with the dykes on bikes.

I'm not comfortable with fag, or faghag. And I've had to adjust to the word "queer." I will use it in a very intentional way at times. And it was my young friends who helped me realize that it was exactly the same situation as my using dyke.

I used to be a bus driver in Boston in the middle of what was called, "forced bussing." Back in the 70s and 80s. I never cared whether the kids used any four letter words, but any word that was derrogatory, such as the "N" word, or "chinc," "spic," "fag," all were forbidden.

After being out for 30+ years it's all so complicated :rolleyes:

[scott snedeker]

I watched one [black] comedian trivialize the sting of the N word by making it a snack food

like "I love Cool ranch Nacho cheese Ni__ers"

or "I'll get the sour cream and onion Ni__ers"

But I get a little nervous when I hear about the hickory smoked barbeque Ni__ers"

[BrentRichards]

I didn't see this thread, so I already voiced my opinion on "queer" and "fag" in the thread that spawned this one.

I also like the playful ones, like "mo" or the more cryptic "happy homeowner."

Does anyone else remember the days of "are you family?"

Other countries and cultures have some fun ones, too ... I truly wouldn't mind being called a poof, or a poofda ... I'm so British wannabe. I don't know if British/Australian gay folk call themselves that or not. I've also heard the British usage "dodgy" ... parallel to queer. Don't know what kind of connotations it has, but it's fun to say.

I also tend to use "gay" generically. How do the LBT people react to that? I don't know.

Not nearly as easy to say, but great in principle, is "same gender loving" ... I like that it is broader than sex.

[BrentRichards]

d_pedr ... would love to hear your thoughts on how the language is used where you are!

[keltic63]

Does anyone else remember the days of "are you family?"




reminds me of the question "are you a friend of Dorothy?" :D

[Dash]

Does anyone else remember the days of "are you family?"


reminds me of the question "are you a friend of Dorothy?" :D

Daniel taught me, "I think he goes to our church."

I like "Mo." :)

I like it with a little extra: "Mo-Latte" (caucasian gay) or "Cinnamon Mo Special" (sexy Indian gay...mmmmm)

You can do it with "Ro" too: "Spicy Ro with a twist" (flirty straight male...or is he?)

Sometimes I like to use "She-mo" and "He-mo"--or the "ro" versions thereof: "Venti mocha she-ro" (Grace Jones)

That's how he talked about people, as if they were--items on a menu--'That one's delicious looking, that one is appetizing', or 'that one is not appetizing.' ~Catherine (Liz Taylor) in Suddenly, Last Summer

[keltic63]

Daniel taught me, "I think he goes to our church."

I have a cousin who says "he's a member of our denomination."

[tpdncr4christ]

I can never say the word straight without some kind of comment... it's too difficult

My friends know they can make fun of my gayness as much as they want, as long as they don't use the words: fag or queer. I'm cool with everything else.

I really like fairy. We have a joke about the TV show Heroes, where everyone has a super power, and mine is I am actually a fairy, with magic rainbow colored butterfly wings and pixie dust. :love: :rainbow: :love:

I don't care for the word homosexual, too much sex. When someone says, "Are you a homosexual?" I say, "No, I am homagapo." It's my own word, meaning: a person who loves a member of the same gender, homagapi is plural, heterogapo is a person who loves a member of a different gender, and heterogapi is that plural. :D

O... and we also call homophobic straight people "ro's." My friends decided there were no derogatory words for straight people, so we invented one.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Seems like a lot of folks are cool with queer but dislike homosexual. Just the opposite for me, even after Queer Eye seriously took the edge off. I use homosexual a lot now (well, not a lot. It is a distant third after LGBT and GLBT community and gay.)

Although now that I reflect there was a time when that word would cause a negative reaction in me because that was the only word you would hear from the fundamentalist pulpit. Those HO-MO-SEX-U-ALS seemed to cause such problems for GAWD and JEE-ZUS. Maybe my like for it now is part of taking it back. Hummm. Hadn't thought of that.

Does anyone else remember the days of "are you family?"

That's still a good one. And reading Daniel's version of "I think he goes to our church" had me cracking up.

[Vanessa White]

I didn't know we had so many ideas about this, and I am likin' it!!!:lol: I remember "belong to our church", also others such as "plays on our team" or "a member of the club". Never heard the terms "beans" (sp) for lesbians, but I do like it, kinda cutesy. Lesbo I never thought much about, but leads me to think about the island of Lesbos, possible beginnings of lesbian frolicking, so it is kind of fun to think of. And, I like the word "faeries" in the way that Scott spelled it, but not particularly the other "fairy" spelling. Strange, huh? Not sure why that is. "Fairy" spelled in that way seems to have been used against us more. The LGBT and sometimes Q seems like a total mouthful that I don't like to be bothered with, but similar to what Zerbie said, I don't want to leave anyone out either, by using gay. Including trans persons and bisexual persons. I have honestly never heard 'mo- I am really out of the loop, I guess! But I have to say I am kinda likin' it too! What about gaydar? Does anyone use that term anymore, and also, do you find that you have it or don't??? I used to think that I did have really accurate gaydar, but not in the last few years, unless those that I thought it was going off for were in total denial :lol::lol:!!!!


I am loving this!! :love:

[dsdrane]

Anyone remember "light in the loafers"? :D

When I was yet a wee gayling, my gay auntie -- Aunt Felice the Bad -- related an anecdote wherein someone asked him if he were a "practicing homosexual", to which he replied:

No, I perfected it years ago!

I just love that! :lol:

Also, while we're on the subject, I always loved the, now, archaic German euphemistic phrase warmer Bruder or "warm brother". The word in common usage now in German-speaking countries is schwul, which seems to have evolved also from this concept of "warm", following the same sort of etymological arc as our word "queer".

'Course, they use "gay", too.

[BrentRichards]

"Plays in our league" is a favorite ... with homage to its usage in Broken Hearts Club, a sappy but really fun gay friends movie. BHC also yields one of my favorites: an attractive guy passing is pointed out with the word "Meanwhile..." which then becomes a noun: "He's a total Meanwhile..." I use this with some of my friends.

I actually have never heard Ro ... I like it. The only "slur" for straights I knew was "Breeder." I sometimes challenge people using the term "That's so gay!" by answering "That's so breeder!"

Dash, I was dying with your latte-language. I gotta club with you some day ... HAHAHA!

I also like the sound of the German term, "Schwul" (rhymes with school) ... I think its a fairly neutral/positive term. Anybody know for sure?

[BrentRichards]

Anyone remember "light in the loafers"? :D

When I was yet a wee gayling, my gay auntie -- Aunt Felice the Bad -- related an anecdote wherein someone asked him if he were a "practicing homosexual", to which he replied:

No, I perfected it years ago!

I just love that! :lol:

Also, while we're on the subject, I always loved the, now, archaic German euphemistic phrase warmer Bruder or "warm brother". The word in common usage now in German-speaking countries is schwul, which seems to have evolved also from this concept of "warm", following the same sort of etymological arc as our word "queer".

'Course, they use "gay", too.

Read to the end of the thread before replying, Brent. Sorry to try to steal your schwul!

[BrentRichards]

I don't care for the word homosexual, too much sex. When someone says, "Are you a homosexual?" I say, "No, I am homagapo." It's my own word, meaning: a person who loves a member of the same gender, homagapi is plural, heterogapo is a person who loves a member of a different gender, and heterogapi is that plural. :D

These sound like latin names for lizards. Heterogapo nelsonii, etc.

I love it, though ... great talk starter!

[Progo35]

Last night I was thinking about our discussion and I thought about the fact that the most times that I've heard a derogatory remark in respect to gay poeple is when the word "gay" is used to describe something dumb, obnoxious or nerdy. So, just a thought. In my town, N. Andover, it's almost like people have realized that fag is not a PC word and have resorted to using gay as a supplementary put down.

[dsdrane]

For what it's worth, my sister's been using that at least since high school (mid- to late-80s), so I think it's usage definitely pre-dates the un-PC-ification of "fag".

In fact, it's so a part of her lexicon that she still uses it...in front of me...with absolutely no self-consciousness or desire to offend, as she is completely cool with gay people and her gay brother. It's as if the term has evolved into a homonym...or, rather, a HOMOnym.

Haha!

[BrentRichards]

HOMOnym.

Ba-dum-ching

[Daniel]

Had never heard the term 'mo' before this thread! What do you know? Does that mean I'm out of touch? Hopelessly losing my queer vibe? :lol:

Queer's one word I find myself using a lot more. And even the one with 5 hurdles: Ho-Mo-Sex-U-Al. Usually with irony involved.

Dkye? Never. Off limits. Reserved for those who are. Never feel comfortable saying it. I just imagine a friend where I work, who is a dyke (oh crap! I said it!) looking at me with snake eyes. That's enough to stop me.

Fag? That one still stings. To hear mostly, out of the mouths of adolescents on the street, on their way home from school, in groups of 10 or more, clawing, pushing and laughing at each other.

Dash mentioned my use of 'I think he goes to our church" which reminds me of a story.

I took hubby to a famous restraurant around the corner for his birthday a few years ago, where the service is stellar and the feeling of the place is old-world. So there we were, and the waiter was of the old guard, poised, dignified, with an air of refinement. We were talking about the menu blah blah blah and I leaned over to hubby and said in a stage whisper "Do you think the waiter goes to our church?"

Little did I know that, at that precise moment, Mr. Dignity leaned in towards our table and his head was dead level with mine, a foot to my right.

I turned and our eyes met. Full stop. He blinked once. The slightest whisper of a smile on his face.

"Would you like to hear what we are offering on our special menu this evening?" His right eyebrow rose in question.

I instantly turned beet red.

He recommended great entree's and a dessert I remember still. A Napolean that melted in your mouth with strawberry cream and blueberries.

I left a huge tip.

[Zerbie]

Daniel taught me, "I think he goes to our church."

I like "Mo." :)

I like it with a little extra: "Mo-Latte" (caucasian gay) or "Cinnamon Mo Special" (sexy Indian gay...mmmmm)

You can do it with "Ro" too: "Spicy Ro with a twist" (flirty straight male...or is he?)

Sometimes I like to use "She-mo" and "He-mo"--or the "ro" versions thereof: "Venti mocha she-ro" (Grace Jones)

I didn't understand a word you said. :(
:lol:

[BenL]

I knew a guy who was older than me, and that's saying something, who alluded to a gay man by saying, "Well, we all know he's a little light in the loafers." That one got a guffaw out of me the first time.

Also, I've heard certain kinds of gay men described as fey, but I think that takes a perfectly wonderful English word and restricts it to orientation rather than it's more poetic sense of eccentric or with sensibilities beyond the physical world. But haven't we done the same with the perfectly good word gay? Not all gay men are gay blades, are they? :lol:

[Zerbie]

I didn't know we had so many ideas about this, and I am likin' it!!!:lol:

And, I like the word "faeries" in the way that Scott spelled it, but not particularly the other "fairy" spelling. Strange, huh? Not sure why that is. "Fairy" spelled in that way seems to have been used against us more. The LGBT and sometimes Q seems like a total mouthful that I don't like to be bothered with, but similar to what Zerbie said, I don't want to leave anyone out either, by using gay. Including trans persons and bisexual persons. I have honestly never heard 'mo- I am really out of the loop, I guess! But I have to say I am kinda likin' it too! What about gaydar? Does anyone use that term anymore, and also, do you find that you have it or don't??? I used to think that I did have really accurate gaydar, but not in the last few years, unless those that I thought it was going off for were in total denial :lol::lol:!!!!


I am loving this!! :love:

I love faeries! And fairies! Whatever kind, as long as it's not meant in a derogatory way. If it is, then :mad:

I've heard "mo," & it doesn't do anything for me. New to me is "ro"! 'Scuse me, how long has THAT been around! I barely understood a word of Dash's post. I guess I'm old school, except for how I view the word queer.

Oh, I hate Queer Eye. It makes it look like all gay men are desexualized beings who flounce around decorating 24/7.

I love gaydar. I was born with phenomenal gaydar, but it deteriorated over time - possible from overuse. I was great at identifying the closeted folk, scary that. Had to stand close to them to get a reading. Once, a guy friend introduced me to his wife and the moment I shook her hand my brain screamed "lesbian! lesbian! lesbian!" I was like, "Shut up, brain!" She came out to her husband a few hours later. :eek:

Check out Queer Duck: The Movie. There's a scene where the homophobes have security cameras that read the gay people outside, and the screen reads "Gaydar!" and it's beeping. . . :lol:

[Zerbie]

Had never heard the term 'mo' before this thread! What do you know? Does that mean I'm out of touch? Hopelessly losing my queer vibe? :lol:

Daniel darling, it means you are even more Old School than I. ;) (blows kiss)


Dash mentioned my use of 'I think he goes to our church" which reminds me of a story.

I took hubby to a famous restraurant around the corner for his birthday a few years ago, where the service is stellar and the feeling of the place is old-world. So there we were, and the waiter was of the old guard, poised, dignified, with an air of refinement. We were talking about the menu blah blah blah and I leaned over to hubby and said in a stage whisper "Do you think the waiter goes to our church?"

Little did I know that, at that precise moment, Mr. Dignity leaned in towards our table and his head was dead level with mine, a foot to my right.

I turned and our eyes met. Full stop. He blinked once. The slightest whisper of a smile on his face.

"Would you like to hear what we are offering on our special menu this evening?" His right eyebrow rose in question.

I instantly turned beet red.


I left a huge tip.


BWAAHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! :rofl: :lol:

Can I please be there next time that happens? :D

[BrentRichards]

Oh, yeah, I forgot, another favorite is just "g" ... as in "Oh, yeah, he's g."

Sadly, it's been co-opted by the gansta culture ... but I don't give up easily.

[u-dog]

BrentRichards;31288
The only "slur" for straights I knew was "Breeder." I sometimes challenge people using the term "That's so gay!" by answering "That's so breeder!"

Of course this one is problematic (not necessarily offensive but problematic) for some of us. What do you think Steve? Ben?

[BrentRichards]

Of course this one is problematic (not necessarily offensive but problematic) for some of us. What do you think Steve? Ben?

True ... would I then be an "Adopter?"

[tdogg]

Daniel, you had me laughing my butt off!! :lol::lol::lol: Thanks!

Gay, yes. Easy, nice to say, encompasses 'all' of me. 'Mo, yes - but around my area, mainly with younger males. I like She-Mo for us gals! cute!

Lesbian, I like, but a few of my lesbian friends hate it. Don't know why, but they are pretty much 1/2 in the closet so that might be it??? Lesbo, Lezzie, don't use, don't bother me. Beans, cute.

Dyke I like (or is it lyke). To me, even if used derogatory, it has a certain empowerment for me. It reaches that butchy masculine part of me that wants to lift weights and be tough. It doesn't bother me necessarily when others use it, but when straights (esp str8 males) use it, makes me chuckle inside (like, what do YOU even KNOW about DYKES).

Fag and any derivative, I hate it. Probably all the childhood taunts (not necessarily of me, but of friends on the receiving end). Bad memories and most often I see it used in derogatory ways. Hag used in any way, don't care for it.

Homosexual, to me it emphasis the 'sex' part of us and leaves out the rest. Which may be why so many oppressors emphasize the 'sex' part of us too and ignore the rest. Anyway, clinical, scientific (like homosapien) and I use it but not my fav.

I remember 'family', we still use it around here now and then. I like 'church' too! :lol: And what is going on with gaydar? Mine is still fairly good, but slowly it's getting ever so slightly unsure.... It MUST be all the closet cases!

[u-dog]

I remember 'family', we still use it around here now and then. I like 'church' too! And what is going on with gaydar? Mine is still fairly good, but slowly it's getting ever so slightly unsure.... It MUST be all the closet cases!

I think that as homophobia slowly loses its grip and gender boundries blur there are more out, Butch guys who don't give off the "signals" and fewer gay guys giving off the signals because they are freer to simply say "I'm gay" and don't have to give hints. Also, more hetero-guys are allowing the masculine/faminine boundry to blur (as in Metrosexuals) Gay-dar may simply be becoming obsolete.

Freedom and affirmation by ourselves for ourselves and by society at large is changing gay culture a lot from one generation to another. Just look how different many of Jenn's and Austin's and Greg's attitudes are from those of us one or two generations back. Things are changing. Changing for the good, but changing in ways that no one could have predicted.

[Progo35]

One thing I have to admit is that I kind of wish the gay movment had thought of a new word for gay people rather than appropriating "gay" which used to mean, "happy." Now, everytime I have to sing an older song that has the word "gay" in it, I think about gay people right away and the "mood" of the song feels tarnished by the association of gayness with social problems. Also, when I was little, I remember using the word "gay" in reference to happiness and people laughed. And, I probably heard that word from an older song. So, how do you explain the two meanings of the word "gay" to a six year old? Also, I guess you could provide a simple explanation just like some parents do with "where do I come from?" "Mommy + Daddy = you." "oh, okay." So perhaps you could say, "gay means 'happy' sometimes and sometimes it means "two mommies"? Although, this might take the "where do I come from" analogy too far...

[tdogg]

It would be interesting to see who exactly came up with "gay' to mean us.

I personally love the word gay, used to describe me as well "gay". I'm a gay person and I'm pretty happy about it. So gay fits me perfectly.

I think the more we lose the mindset that there is something wrong with gay people, the less conflict there would be over the use of 'gay'. Just my opinion. Same with rainbows.

[Zerbie]

I think that as homophobia slowly loses its grip and gender boundries blur there are more out, Butch guys who don't give off the "signals" .

Only that doesn't explain that my gaydar does wonderfully at picking out those butch guys in a millisecond.

There are times when John Inman could flit by in a Tinkerbell costume and my gaydar will not pick up on it, but I spot the butch dude, out or closeted is of no concern, like: Zing!!

It just makes No. Sense.

:p

[Zerbie]

One thing I have to admit is that I kind of wish the gay movment had thought of a new word for gay people rather than appropriating "gay" which used to mean, "happy." Now, everytime I have to sing an older song that has the word "gay" in it, I think about gay people right away and the "mood" of the song feels tarnished by the association of gayness with social problems..

As a singer I run into this a lot. It dismays me when we encounter it, because it means re-writing the song or lose the meaning it was supposed to have, or else leave it and let the audience think of - well, the wrong meaning.

The funniest I ran into of that situation was the Fiordiligi/Dorabella duet from Cosi, in English translation: the 2 girls are telling each other which of the 2 cute guys they chose to go out with, and one girl tells the other, " I myself prefer the dark one; he is gay."

Does. Not. Work. As. Meant to. :p

[Daniel]

Also, more hetero-guys are allowing the masculine/faminine boundry to blur (as in Metrosexuals) Gay-dar may simply be becoming obsolete.


Do I observe a freudian slip in evidence?

hmmmmm.....masculine famine...

(spock ears rising)

[u-dog]

Do I observe a freudian slip in evidence?

hmmmmm.....masculine famine...

(spock ears rising)

Make fun of a sick person! Kick me when I'm down! nice guy Daniel! ;)

[Progo35]

Zerbie-
There are many loud gaffaws eminating from my room right now... :D

[BrentRichards]

Make fun of a sick person! Kick me when I'm down! nice guy Daniel! ;)

Men, can't live with 'em ... like I'd know.

[Dash]

One thing I have to admit is that I kind of wish the gay movment had thought of a new word for gay people rather than appropriating "gay" which used to mean, "happy." Now, everytime I have to sing an older song that has the word "gay" in it, I think about gay people right away and the "mood" of the song feels tarnished by the association of gayness with social problems. Also, when I was little, I remember using the word "gay" in reference to happiness and people laughed. And, I probably heard that word from an older song. So, how do you explain the two meanings of the word "gay" to a six year old? Also, I guess you could provide a simple explanation just like some parents do with "where do I come from?" "Mommy + Daddy = you." "oh, okay." So perhaps you could say, "gay means 'happy' sometimes and sometimes it means "two mommies"? Although, this might take the "where do I come from" analogy too far...

As a singer I run into this a lot. It dismays me when we encounter it, because it means re-writing the song or lose the meaning it was supposed to have, or else leave it and let the audience think of - well, the wrong meaning.

The funniest I ran into of that situation was the Fiordiligi/Dorabella duet from Cosi, in English translation: the 2 girls are telling each other which of the 2 cute guys they chose to go out with, and one girl tells the other, " I myself prefer the dark one; he is gay."

Does. Not. Work. As. Meant to. :p

See... I don't think that the history of the word "gay" is quite what people think it is. From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

gay (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gay)
1178, "full of joy or mirth," from O.Fr. gai "gay, merry," perhaps from Frank. *gahi (cf. O.H.G. wahi "pretty"). Meaning "brilliant, showy" is from c.1300. OED gives 1951 as earliest date for slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.), but this is certainly too late; gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N. Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang;" the term gey cat (gey is a Scot. variant of gay) was used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng. for "young hobo," one who is new on the road and usually in the company of an older tramp, with catamite connotations. But Josiah Flynt ["Tramping With Tramps," 1905] defines gay cat as, "An amateur tramp who works when his begging courage fails him." Gey cats also were said to be tramps who offered sexual services to women. The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"] calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays. The word gay in the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back to 1637. Gay as a noun meaning "a (usually male) homosexual" is attested from 1971.

Wiki has further discussion of the etymology of "gay" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay).

Seems that, yes, a VERY LONG TIME AGO, it did just mean "happy", "cheerful", etc... But for most of the 20th century, and even back in the 19th century, it has had strong sexual (straight & otherwise) overtones. That it was accepted by people whose sexuality (and ostracization therefor) connected them as a group should be no surprise in my opinion.

Certainly for no time when any of us were alive (not even our most ancient fathers here) has the word meant just pastel dresses on little girls running through wildflowers.

I think this notion is a common misprision born of...well...not naivety, but of innocence of the language. I remember first encountering the word in some of my (old) elementary primers; but having taken a closer look at the history, I think it is rather funny that it was used in them.

Anyway, I think it bears consideration. :inspector:

[Zerbie]

See... I don't think that the history of the word "gay" is quite what people think it is. From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

gay (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gay)
1178, "full of joy or mirth," from O.Fr. gai "gay, merry," perhaps from Frank. *gahi (cf. O.H.G. wahi "pretty"). Meaning "brilliant, showy" is from c.1300. OED gives 1951 as earliest date for slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.), but this is certainly too late; gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N. Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang;" the term gey cat (gey is a Scot. variant of gay) was used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng. for "young hobo," one who is new on the road and usually in the company of an older tramp, with catamite connotations. But Josiah Flynt ["Tramping With Tramps," 1905] defines gay cat as, "An amateur tramp who works when his begging courage fails him." Gey cats also were said to be tramps who offered sexual services to women. The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"] calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S. Hays. The word gay in the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back to 1637. Gay as a noun meaning "a (usually male) homosexual" is attested from 1971.

Wiki has further discussion of the etymology of "gay" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay).

Seems that, yes, a VERY LONG TIME AGO, it did just mean "happy", "cheerful", etc... But for most of the 20th century, and even back in the 19th century, it has had strong sexual (straight & otherwise) overtones. That it was accepted by people whose sexuality (and ostracization therefor) connected them as a group should be no surprise in my opinion.

Certainly for no time when any of us were alive (not even our most ancient fathers here) has the word meant just pastel dresses on little girls running through wildflowers.

I think this notion is a common misprision born of...well...not naivety, but of innocence of the language. I remember first encountering the word in some of my (old) elementary primers; but having taken a closer look at the history, I think it is rather funny that it was used in them.

Anyway, I think it bears consideration. :inspector:

I'm aware of it's use back to about the 1920s. Didn't know it went as far as the 1890s, that's interesting! :)

I vote for re-writing the words to a song/aria in translation if what's given is the word gay for "happy" and the queer connotation makes nonsense of the song otherwise. Haven't you run into this a lot too?

[Dash]

I'm aware of it's use back to about the 1920s. Didn't know it went as far as the 1890s, that's interesting! :)

I vote for re-writing the words to a song/aria in translation if what's given is the word gay for "happy" and the queer connotation makes nonsense of the song otherwise. Haven't you run into this a lot too?

I'm totally guilty of rewriting. For Example... Marian(?) Farquhar's pitiful translation of Bartered Bride. "Joys of childhood, gaily blended..." became "sweetly tended."

Hahah!!

[Zerbie]

I'm totally guilty of rewriting. For Example... Marian(?) Farquhar's pitiful translation of Bartered Bride. "Joys of childhood, gaily blended..." became "sweetly tended."

Hahah!!

:D

I still say Dorabella announcing to Fiordiligi that she wants to date the "gay" man trumps them all! :lol: When we did it, the translation was changed from "he is gay" to "he is sweet."

[BrentRichards]

misprision

Remind me AGAIN never to play Scrabble with you.

[BrentRichards]

I'm aware of it's use back to about the 1920s. Didn't know it went as far as the 1890s, that's interesting! :)

I vote for re-writing the words to a song/aria in translation if what's given is the word gay for "happy" and the queer connotation makes nonsense of the song otherwise. Haven't you run into this a lot too?

"The Palms" by Jean-Baptiste Faure has been traditional Palm Sunday fare at several of the churches I've attended. For the past couple years, I've done it as a solo at our church. It was extra poignant this year, the first Palm Sunday since I've been out at church:

"O'er all the way green palms and blossoms gay
Are strewn today in festal preparation ..."

I had to wonder if anyone noticed the irony, and whether I involuntarily put a little extra emphasis on the word ...

[BrentRichards]

:D

I still say Dorabella announcing to Fiordiligi that she wants to date the "gay" man trumps them all! :lol: When we did it, the translation was changed from "he is gay" to "he is sweet."

Don't rewrite it, just transpose it, and I'll play Dorabella.

I often joke that I was once in an all-gay production of Shakespeare's Romeo and Julius. The rest of the joke is a bit blue, so I'll leave it out here.

[u-dog]

Don't rewrite it, just transpose it, and I'll play Dorabella.

I often joke that I was once in an all-gay production of Shakespeare's Romeo and Julius. The rest of the joke is a bit blue, so I'll leave it out here.


PM it to me!!!! I inherited a love of off-color jokes from my saintly Presbyterian Mother

I once heard a gay joke from one of my parishioners (back in my first call) that was so funny I almost wet myself but so AWFUL I have never told it to anyone.

PM me if you want to hear it.

[Zerbie]

PM it to me!!!! I inherited a love of off-color jokes from my saintly Presbyterian Mother

I once heard a gay joke from one of my parishioners (back in my first call) that was so funny I almost wet myself but so AWFUL I have never told it to anyone.

PM me if you want to hear it.

No fair guys!!! Post 'em, now!!

Wonder what an all-male cast of Cosi would look like?

[d_pedr]

Hi Brent, took a while but saw your prompt.

gay is used most for any same sex relationships, though mostly for male ones, 'homosexual' is much too clinical, by often used by those who don't understand. The way they say it implies dissapproval a lot.

unfortunately 'gay' is also used for things that don't work properly, or poor quality TV programs - don't ask me why.

Queer is quite liked my gay friends, there's also an old nothern saying
'There's now't as queer as folk'.
Meaning that its hard to understand other people, usually used, at some point they've be let down by a friend.

Lesbian and Dyke are frequently and mostly interchangeable, and as we've seen above it depends who you are which is preferred.

We do have some web sites which advertise their restaurants, Hotels, Bed & Breakfast (B&B) places etc as Gay, Mixed, or Gay friendly. Most of the Gay list are those owned by Gay couples (male or female)

Hope this helps with our separation by a common language.

love and hugs

[u-dog]

Queer is quite liked my gay friends, there's also an old nothern saying
'There's now't as queer as folk'.


This explains the title of the popular TV show that began in Britain and then was remade for the US market "Queer As Folk". Which, BTW, I love.

[Zerbie]

This explains the title of the popular TV show that began in Britain and then was remade for the US market "Queer As Folk". Which, BTW, I love.

Yeah I didn't know where that title came from either. I like the show too.


Now where's that joke?!! (PM it to me if you really don't wanna post it.) I'll consider myself warned.

[d_pedr]

Hi Zerbie and u-dog

Queer as Folk came out over here, at least 2 series, based in Canal Street in Manchester, which I thoroughly enjoyed. Then it was re-made for you guys over there, and shown over here, and though similar it was great too.