Biblical problems with gay marriage?

[ladyinred]

Biblical Problems with Gay Marriage (Taken from the free Christian website/
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If you believe that "the United States is a "Christian nation" and support the idea of a so-called "Defense of (biblical) Marriage Act" because of what the bible teaches, then you should prove your sincerity by promoting the rest of what the Bible teaches about marriage. To begin with, (in keeping with Gen. 29:17-28; II Sam. 3:2-5) that Act should be modified to read "Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women". Then U. S. law should be revised to incorporate the following :
A. (in keeping with II Sam. 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron. 11:21) marriage must not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives.
B. (in keeping with Deut. 22:13-21) in order to be considered valid, a marriage the bride must be a virgin. If she is not a virgin, she must be executed.
C. (in keeping with Gen. 24:3; Num. 25:1-9; Ezra 9:12; Neh. 10:30) marriage of a believer and a non-believer must be forbidden.
D. (in keeping with Deut. 22:19; Mark 10:9) since marriage is for life, neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any State, nor any state or federal law, shall be construed to permit divorce.
E. (in keeping with Gen. 38:6-10; Deut. 25:5-10) when a married man dies without children, his brother must marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he must pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law.

My addition,of course you'd have to stone anyone who commits adultery,(According to the old testament) including men and women who have remarried, because Jesus condemned divorce and said any man who divorces and remarries commits adultery and causes his ex wife to if she remarries.
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[tpdncr4christ]

I love you.

That is so cool... :love::love::love:

[BruceChris]

In biblical times, people would commit adultery, and then get stoned. Now days, it's pretty much the other way around. :lol: :lol: :lol:

P&L, BC

[Gregory_de_Bois]

In biblical times, people would commit adultery, and then get stoned. Now days, it's pretty much the other way around. :lol: :lol: :lol:

P&L, BC

:lol::lol:

[sjbouza]

In biblical times, people would commit adultery, and then get stoned. Now days, it's pretty much the other way around. :lol: :lol: :lol:

P&L, BC

OMG...i get it....:lol::lol::lol: What is sad is I had to read it like 6 times. I am sooooo blonde sometimes. And I make fun of my partner for not getting jokes. He is gonna have a field day with this one. Hummmm, maybe I shouldnt tell him:confused::rolleyes:

[pnggrad79]

Well I agree with that! When I came out to my dad, he told me that the Bible expressly forbids homosexuality. He quoted to me Leviticus, and I said that if that were still in effect, why did he also like bacon with his eggs? why did he insist on wearing clothes made from two different types of fabric? why did he like jumbo size shrimp? Those are also forbidden by Scripture(old testament). He actually said to me, "Well, there are some laws that are obsolete and no longer valid, but not homosexuality." I said, " So who decides what old testament laws are obsolete? Anyone who decides he likes a BLT? All of a sudden because they like bacon, that old testament law is obsolete?"

My question is- Who decides what is valid and what is not? Who decides what is permissible and what is not? From history's example, the establishment always can find a way to justify their tyranny in the Bible, using Scripture. I want to know exactly where in the Bible did God or Jesus EVER negate, invalidate, abolish or retract anything they said?

Leviticus condemns men lying with men as with a woman. If it was valid back then, it is valid today.

Leviticus also condemns eating shellfish, pork and wearing multifabric clothes- So close down every shellfish restaurant, discontinue the whole crab industry, allow pigs to run rampant, and let's all go back to wearing just cotton. If it was valid then, it must be valid now.


No, I think that the religious leaders today have to have a bandwagon to jump on. They have to have an issue, because they know that they are losing their hold on the people. The church has been the source of much pain and discord in the population that many feel they have no place in the community of faith. The church has nothing to offer anyone but impossible standards, an angry God, and a condemning spirit, that only wants your money.

When the church becomes what the BIBLE says it should be, it will be a place of refuge for the lost and dying. It will be a haven for the sick and weary. It will be a source of love for the unloved, it will be a place where anyone can go, sing praises to the Creator, worship Him in spirit and truth and have a true relationship. That is what the church should look like, but sadly it is far from it.

:'(

[alakazoom87]

Well I agree with that! When I came out to my dad, he told me that the Bible expressly forbids homosexuality. He quoted to me Leviticus, and I said that if that were still in effect, why did he also like bacon with his eggs? why did he insist on wearing clothes made from two different types of fabric? why did he like jumbo size shrimp? Those are also forbidden by Scripture(old testament). He actually said to me, "Well, there are some laws that are obsolete and no longer valid, but not homosexuality." I said, " So who decides what old testament laws are obsolete? Anyone who decides he likes a BLT? All of a sudden because they like bacon, that old testament law is obsolete?"

My question is- Who decides what is valid and what is not? Who decides what is permissible and what is not? From history's example, the establishment always can find a way to justify their tyranny in the Bible, using Scripture. I want to know exactly where in the Bible did God or Jesus EVER negate, invalidate, abolish or retract anything they said?

Leviticus condemns men lying with men as with a woman. If it was valid back then, it is valid today.

Leviticus also condemns eating shellfish, pork and wearing multifabric clothes- So close down every shellfish restaurant, discontinue the whole crab industry, allow pigs to run rampant, and let's all go back to wearing just cotton. If it was valid then, it must be valid now.


No, I think that the religious leaders today have to have a bandwagon to jump on. They have to have an issue, because they know that they are losing their hold on the people. The church has been the source of much pain and discord in the population that many feel they have no place in the community of faith. The church has nothing to offer anyone but impossible standards, an angry God, and a condemning spirit, that only wants your money.

When the church becomes what the BIBLE says it should be, it will be a place of refuge for the lost and dying. It will be a haven for the sick and weary. It will be a source of love for the unloved, it will be a place where anyone can go, sing praises to the Creator, worship Him in spirit and truth and have a true relationship. That is what the church should look like, but sadly it is far from it.

:'(

I'm not going to get in a big old debate with you guys, however, it is standard doctrine that kosher laws no longer exist. Its written in scripture: Acts 10:9-16.

[pnggrad79]

That was my point exactly AL! Thanks for being so succinct in the middle of my preaching, ranting and raving! You said it well!;)

[alakazoom87]

Well I was just confused as to why you would relate homosexuality to kosher laws. We know for a fact that as Christians, we do not need to uphold to the kosher food laws. However, the current "debate" that is taking place, is whether or not we need to uphold the homosexuality laws.

I completely understand your argument as a whole: we cannot pick and choose what still stands from the levitical laws. However, you cannot use kosher foods as ammunition.

[ladyinred]

I just posted the thing above on marriage to show how hypocritical straight evangelicals can be on the issue of marriage. Marriage back in old testament days regarded women more as property and chattel. Men more or less basically did as they pleased. Abraham had a concubine, Solomon 1000 wives and concubines.

Also I read where the divorce rate is highest among evangelicals in the red states or bible belt. Let's just say people who live in glass houses have no right to throw stones at LGBT people when they don't live according to the standards of their own bible which they insist is the infallible word of God when they are breaking it's commandments all the time. They have premarital sex, even though the bible expressly forbids it, they divorce in spite of what Jesus said about divorce.So there is not much room for them to point the finger at gays and say they are sinful. And really no room to throw stones at others and condemn them when their own behavior doesn't measure up and all too often falls short of an "ideal" Which is why Jesus probably said for this reason that the measure you use to judge others will come back to you(The measure you mete will be meted unto you)

Perhaps that is why Jesus called people hypocrites for looking at the speck in their brother's eye without perceiving the log in their own? LGBT people are frankly tired of double standards.
There is really nothing to justify bigotry and discrimination toward gays. If so, then the same laws that are used to discriminate against gays should also apply to others who commit "sins" including straight people who do the above. Of course the religious right in all it's hypocrisy wouldn't dare to do that because they would lose many of their own congregation and supporters, many of which are divorced and remarried. They don't want to lose their cash cows .

As Jesus said,"He who is without sin, may cast the first stone." Straight people better drop the rocks folks and look at that ol' log in their own eye before they start to condemn others.

[ladyinred]

Now we know why there is a need for SoulForce,ACLU,PFAW, DEFCON, and other human rights groups who obviously see through the double standards and hypocrisy of the right. And that's why most people roll their eyes here when we here the rantings of the right about how gays are such "sinners":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Progo35]

I really don't understand why Christians quote leviticus as necessitating their position. The only verses that are relevant to Christian practice are in the New Testament, so that anyone who is concerned with the morality or immorality of being gay must refer to Corinthians. Those are the only statements that I take into account: that make me concerned for the spiritual wellfare of gay individuals. As another user noted, Acts recounts the substitution of Christ's sacrifice for many of the ritual practices in the Old Testament.

[ladyinred]

Progo35:Even if certain Christians do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle it does not excuse treating LGBT people inhumanely.Why does the bible say to follow the golden rule for example?What about the bible saying judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy ,mercy truimphs over judgment?

Why did Jesus say to be merciful as your Father in Heaven is merciful? Why did Jesus say judge not unless you be judged?Why Did Jesus command us to love our neighbor as ourself?

For those who vilify and attack gays, this does not show any concern for their welfare, nor does it show love.
Is it loving to another person to cause them pain and torment?

Is it loving to be inhumane to others? Is it loving to use threats of coercion to intimidate people to keep them in line? Is it loving to tell them they are unworthy of God's love and grace and are going to hell? Is it loving to harm others?

So is it loving to destroy people's lives? Jesus said I've come into the world not to condemn it but to save it. The bible says ."That God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." That doesn't exclude anyone from God's love, justice and sense of mercy does it.

Is it loving to use gay people as scapegoats for all the ills of our society and blame them for heterosexuals divorcing and their relationship and family problems or for everything bad that happens to other people?

Is it loving when hate crimes are committed against gays who are then told they deserve what they got?Is it loving to torment LGBT kids at school and make their lives a living hell on earth?

Is it loving to dehumanize people and strip them of their dignity and worth as individuals? And I am so sure straight people would want to be treated this way,if this kind of ugliness and maltreatment were directed at them. And why does the bible say,"love does no harm to a neighbor and therefore is the fulfilment of the law?" Doesn't seem here that it excludes LGBT people.

For all their talk of love the sinner and hate the sin. The religious right has a strange idea of what love is.The bible speaks of loosening the bonds of oppression and letting the oppressed go free. Should Christians further oppress the oppressed then? Should they show no mercy to the outcasts and marginalized? LGBT people are no different from any other human being in how they want to be treated.

[alakazoom87]

Progo35:Even if certain Christians do not agree with the homosexual lifestyle it does not excuse treating LGBT people inhumanely.Why does the bible say to follow the golden rule for example?What about the bible saying judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy ,mercy truimphs over judgment?

Why did Jesus say to be merciful as your Father in Heaven is merciful? Why did Jesus say judge not unless you be judged?Why Did Jesus command us to love our neighbor as ourself?

For those who vilify and attack gays, this does not show any concern for their welfare, nor does it show love.
Is it loving to another person to cause them pain and torment?

Is it loving to be inhumane to others? Is it loving to use threats of coercion to intimidate people to keep them in line? Is it loving to tell them they are unworthy of God's love and grace and are going to hell? Is it loving to harm others?

So is it loving to destroy people's lives? Jesus said I've come into the world not to condemn it but to save it. The bible says ."That God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." That doesn't exclude anyone from God's love, justice and sense of mercy does it.

Is it loving to use gay people as scapegoats for all the ills of our society and blame them for heterosexuals divorcing and their relationship and family problems or for everything bad that happens to other people?

Is it loving when hate crimes are committed against gays who are then told they deserve what they got?Is it loving to torment LGBT kids at school and make their lives a living hell on earth?

Is it loving to dehumanize people and strip them of their dignity and worth as individuals? And I am so sure straight people would want to be treated this way,if this kind of ugliness and maltreatment were directed at them. And why does the bible say,"love does no harm to a neighbor and therefore is the fulfilment of the law?" Doesn't seem here that it excludes LGBT people.

For all their talk of love the sinner and hate the sin. The religious right has a strange idea of what love is.The bible speaks of loosening the bonds of oppression and letting the oppressed go free. Should Christians further oppress the oppressed then? Should they show no mercy to the outcasts and marginalized? LGBT people are no different from any other human being in how they want to be treated.

Do you honestly believe that any Christian that believes homosexuality is a bigot/hypocrite? Basically, you are putting all Christians who don't believe on your views of what sexual immorality is in one category, and that by default is wrong.

Your argument seems to say: right Christians shouldn't have any concern for homosexual Christians because right Christians are all having premarital sex, all right Christians are divorced, and all right Christians are hypocrites. Do you see how unfair this is? The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality.

Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians.

*prepares to be hated and yelled at by soulforce forum although alakazoom87 has not stated his own beliefs on the matter*

[pnggrad79]

Al- Consider this?

IF homosexuality is a sin- why is it that the religious right picks and chooses what they want to harp on next? In my opinion, the argument is if homosexuality is a sin (personally I don't believe it is) then it should not be considered any worse than premarital sex. gambling, drunkeness, extramarital sex, divorce or a host of any other prohibitions in the Bible. Therefore, it is simply being judgmental and self righteous to point at someone else's faults, when you have plenty of your own to worry about.

IF homosexuality is NOT a sin- then the religious right needs to just shut the hell up! We don't want to get married in your narrow minded churches and we don't want your way of life. We simply want what the Constitution says is ours by virtue of the fact that we are Americans. We want the ability to live, work, love, and raise families just like everyone else.

[alakazoom87]

So, we should not help each other out with each others sins? And just ignore its existence entirely?

Matthew 18:15

[Daniel]

So, we should not help each other out with each others sins? And just ignore its existence entirely?

Matthew 18:15

Zoom honey. Did I just hear you utter a pick up line?

Loving another person is hardly a sin. Even if they are of the same sex.

[keltic63]

Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians.

*prepares to be hated and yelled at by soulforce forum although alakazoom87 has not stated his own beliefs on the matter*

#1, get yourself a dictionary and a thesaurus.

#2, state your own opinions, own what you post, or I will ban you. I promise you this.

[pnggrad79]

So, we should not help each other out with each others sins? And just ignore its existence entirely?

Matthew 18:15

I don't believe other people's sins are mine to monitor. After all on Judgment Day, it won't be any other person standing with me in front of God when it is my turn. It will be just me and HIM. Nobody else has the right or privilege to judge me or my actions except GOD and sadly I can't think of one person in the so called Religious Right that even remotely resembles or acts like HIM. The Religious Right is the the Religious WRONG!!!!

[ladyinred]

Pngrad:"IF homosexuality is a sin- why is it that the religious right picks and chooses what they want to harp on next? In my opinion, the argument is if homosexuality is a sin (personally I don't believe it is) then it should not be considered any worse than premarital sex. gambling, drunkeness, extramarital sex, divorce or a host of any other prohibitions in the Bible. Therefore, it is simply being judgmental and self righteous to point at someone else's faults, when you have plenty of your own to worry about."

IF homosexuality is NOT a sin- then the religious right needs to just shut the hell up! We don't want to get married in your narrow minded churches and we don't want your way of life. We simply want what the Constitution says is ours by virtue of the fact that we are Americans. We want the ability to live, work, love, and raise families just like everyone else."
__________________
Exactly what I was trying to point out in my posts ,the pick and choose thing with the religious right and those who think like them.Why is the supposed sin of homosexuality worse than any other sin in the bible, and used to discriminate against gay people and to deny them their rights? Christianity is not at dispute here, there are many Christians who don't agree with the religious rights mentality and lack of humanity.

Alakazoom what makes you qualified to help LGBT people ,are you an expert on human sexuality and mental health, are you so knowledgeable of God that you know everything he thinks? What about your own life, is your life itself above scrutiny or reproach that you can continously point out the "sins" of others and as Jesus said,not notice the log in your own eye? Sorry but I say LGBT people do not need your kind of help.We all have seen where many times that leads to with reparative therapy, and guilt trips and bible beating over the head.Many times suicide, despair and broken lives.Actually what LGBT people need to be saved from are the likes of YOU who think they know better about what others should or should not be doing and how they should be saved.

Besides it is not in your power to change others or even to force change on others, they must determine what is right for them based on their own personal relationship with God. Sorry if that doesn't agree with your view of how people need to be saved or your interpretation of the bible but then again you are not God. I would keep a focus on the person you need to ,yourself and what may need to change for you to grow spiritually,that's all you have control over is your own life.As the bible says ,"Love does not demand it's own way."(As in imposing itself on others and demanding others to conform to it's expectations)

[sjbouza]

alakazoom87...I have this to ask of you.

Prove to me, as well as anyone else on this forum that you are right. That homosexuality is wrong. Prove it beyond a doubt!!!

Sorry but it is a loaded question because you cant prove it. In no way can you prove that homosexuality is wrong. You can quote verse after verse all you want, that is NOT proof by any means of the word. One follows the Bible by faith and faith alone. You dont know for absolute fact that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one, you just HOPE it is.

It seems convenient that you jump to arms when the Christian right is all lumped into one group and generalized about. But you seem to have no problem with the Christian right lumping all homosexuals into one generalized group. That sir is the definition of hypocrisy. Your true colors have come through.

The number one and probably only reason that Dobson and Roberston have jumped on the anti gay bandwagon is they see the monitary value of it. These people arent concerned with your soul they are concerned with your wallet. I have watched the 700 Club a few times and each and every time Roberston pleas for money. The man doesnt even believe that the Bible is perfect. His own words.

What people are trying to say here, and you are missing the point as you usually do, is that the Christian right needs to clean its own backyard up before they start telling others that theirs is a mess. They love to use the Bible to "prove" whatever, but when it is turned back on them, they use the excuse that it doesnt mean that anymore. As was asked above, who on this earth has the authority to say what the Bible does or doesnt say anymore. NO ONE!!! It is up to each person to interpret the Bible in his/her own life. It isnt up to you to tell me or anyone else what we can or cannot do. Where in the Bible did it ever say, "make them believe just like you do or else?" NO WHERE!!!

The holier than thou attitude is getting a little boring and somewhat irritating!!! You can only go by what you "think" the Bible says or what someone else has told you it says. You cannot PROVE in any way shape or form that you are correct.

Sadly I must end this...my BOYFRIEND ( :eek: )is calling.

[ladyinred]

SjBousa "What people are trying to say here, and you are missing the point as you usually do, is that the Christian right needs to clean its own backyard up before they start telling others that theirs is a mess. They love to use the Bible to "prove" whatever, but when it is turned back on them, they use the excuse that it doesnt mean that anymore. "

Point well taken.:lol::applause: Of course it only does with their (The Christian right)reference to gays.
We all have enough to worry about with our own backyard.
But one correction,
please SjBousa,and this is meant with no disrespect, we do not put our faith in the bible but in God and his Spirit alone. The bible is controversial as it is, we do not put faith in, God alone we put faith and trust in. When you understand that God's word is written in your heart and as in 2 Cor 3:3 Clearly,you are a letter from Christ prepared by us, It is written not with pen and ink, but the Spirit of the living God." It is carved not on stone,but the human heart."
2Cor 3:4-6 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. I personally think when we know the peace of God we will understand our true direction and course in life.Let God speak through your heart and not the words of a written book. "My peace I give unto you,not as the world giveth do I give unto you, let your heart neither be troubled or afraid."Jesus Christ

[ladyinred]

Hey could you all help me with indenting the quotes, I still haven't figured out what to do with it, That way I can properly separate my words from others words and quotes ,thanks .

[sjbouza]

Hey could you all help me with indenting the quotes, I still haven't figured out what to do with it, That way I can properly separate my words from others words and quotes ,thanks .

Just click on the "quote" button at the bottom of the post you want to quote. If you dont want to quote the entire thing you can delete the parts you dont want to use.

[ladyinred]

Thank you, thank you, I have been grappling with that for a long time.

[ladyinred]

"The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality."

Self righteousness is not righteousness.It is judgmental and blind-sided. None of us has the right to say we are the best or more superior to anyone else.You base everything on comparisons.Not one person can claim to be perfect or all knowing in God's eyes. Go back to the verses and what Jesus says about judgmentalism."Can the blind lead the blind? " He said
Precisely because you judge others you cannot see reality,you are blinded to it.And because you judge, you do not understand other people;in other words,you do not walk in their shoes,so to speak.

[tdogg]

Do you honestly believe that any Christian that believes homosexuality is a bigot/hypocrite? Basically, you are putting all Christians who don't believe on your views of what sexual immorality is in one category, and that by default is wrong.

Your argument seems to say: right Christians shouldn't have any concern for homosexual Christians because right Christians are all having premarital sex, all right Christians are divorced, and all right Christians are hypocrites. Do you see how unfair this is? The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality.

Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians.

*prepares to be hated and yelled at by soulforce forum although alakazoom87 has not stated his own beliefs on the matter*

Zoom, you seem to be quite upset over what people have posted in response to your postings...perhaps you feel that people are disrespecting you? Being rude and less than compassionate? Treating you like a second-hand citizen, maybe?

Welcome to our world buddy. We live through this on a daily basis. This is one of the first steps a person must take if they truly want to understand someone else. If you want to really dialogue with us (forget the witnessing part by the way), you must understand us. To do that you must try to walk a few steps in our shoes. To do that you have to either empathize with us or experience somehow what we do. Sounds like you have started to take a small baby step perhaps?

Anyways, I think it will go a long way in talking to others on THIS forum and in getting responses that might be more in line with what you anticipate.

[d_pedr]

Hi All

If physical Sex unites those involved (see Paul's views in 1 Cor 6:16b "The two will become one flesh"). This would mean that most of us have many more husbands or wives than anyone would think!

Then, there is same sex marriage, and I have seen several in these forums lasting over 15 years, and at least one of over 29 years. These would have started long before any legal arguments as to whether they should be allowed.

My marriage lasted physically 11 years, legally before separation 9 years, and about 10 and a half years from wedding to divorce. Any of these figures do not match up to those mentioned above.

So which is a better human demonstration of God's love for his church?

I know what I think and take my hat off to those whose relationships have lasted.

love and hugs to you all

[pnggrad79]

Zoom, you seem to be quite upset over what people have posted in response to your postings...perhaps you feel that people are disrespecting you? Being rude and less than compassionate? Treating you like a second-hand citizen, maybe?

Welcome to our world buddy. We live through this on a daily basis. This is one of the first steps a person must take if they truly want to understand someone else. If you want to really dialogue with us (forget the witnessing part by the way), you must understand us. To do that you must try to walk a few steps in our shoes. To do that you have to either empathize with us or experience somehow what we do. Sounds like you have started to take a small baby step perhaps?

Anyways, I think it will go a long way in talking to others on THIS forum and in getting responses that might be more in line with what you anticipate.


TDogg- you hit the nail on the head! If straight people would just jump off their high horses and live like we have to live for one freaking day, they would be up in arms storming their churches, and their government for change. The reason straight people, at least most of them, don't care what happens to us, is that it DOESN'T HAPPEN TO THEM!!!!!! It's like sometimes we casually drive past the homeless guy on the street corner and because it isn't us, we have little empathy.

I just want them to spend one day in our shoes!!!!:rolleyes:

[alakazoom87]

So, I see that I've got a lot of responses to look at.

Ladyinred, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't help each other with our sins. You seem to be saying that having accountability for our sins is basically illogical, because the person who will be keeping us in check is only judging us.

If a buddy of mine says that he is a Christian but is also a fornicator, I am going to go point out his sin to him. Is that judging? Is it wrong of me to worry about the spiritual health of my friend? No, actually it is biblical that we take care of each other not only physically but spiritually as well.

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.



P.S.

Boy does typing on a forum take patience heh, I wish I could talk instead.

[alakazoom87]

Hi All

If physical Sex unites those involved (see Paul's views in 1 Cor 6:16b "The two will become one flesh"). This would mean that most of us have many more husbands or wives than anyone would think!

Then, there is same sex marriage, and I have seen several in these forums lasting over 15 years, and at least one of over 29 years. These would have started long before any legal arguments as to whether they should be allowed.

My marriage lasted physically 11 years, legally before separation 9 years, and about 10 and a half years from wedding to divorce. Any of these figures do not match up to those mentioned above.

So which is a better human demonstration of God's love for his church?

I know what I think and take my hat off to those whose relationships have lasted.

love and hugs to you all

I'm trying to follow what you are saying here:

Are you saying that by having sex you are automatically married?

[keltic63]

So, I see that I've got a lot of responses to look at.

Ladyinred, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't help each other with our sins. You seem to be saying that having accountability for our sins is basically illogical, because the person who will be keeping us in check is only judging us.

If a buddy of mine says that he is a Christian but is also a fornicator, I am going to go point out his sin to him. Is that judging? Is it wrong of me to worry about the spiritual health of my friend? No, actually it is biblical that we take care of each other not only physically but spiritually as well.

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.



P.S.

Boy does typing on a forum take patience heh, I wish I could talk instead.


Thank you.

[tdogg]

Why do I have to be accountable to an imperfect person in regards to whether or not I'm sinning? Which person gets to decide? I don't need a human being to point out what they feel are my sins. That means that person would be the one to decide I'm sinning, and exactly what sin they feel I'm commiting. I have God for that.

Now, perhaps if I'm breaking human-made laws or hurting another person, then sure, I could see someone pointing that out to me (or law enforcement).

[Daniel]

All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.


Perhaps a little research is in order here.


big·ot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[French, from Old French.]

WORD HISTORY Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant “an excessively devoted or hypocritical person.” Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense “a superstitious hypocrite.”

Well....I think the general observation on this forum is that your views fall squarely within the definition in bold above.

No one like to think of themselves as being bigoted. I certainly don't. But I've come to realize that I have all sorts of uncharitable views about things and people lurking around in my head. One has to be carefully taught to think such things. At least, that's my observation.

Have you ever watched a child? Really observed them? (I taught school so I know what I'm talking about here.) They soak up the world around them with eyes of wonder, like houses with the doors thrown wide open.

They don't care about straight or gay, black or white, Democrat or Republican. What changes that? Other people. Children are frightfully good mimics. They learn to walk and talk like their parents. Think like 'em too.

Maybe this is why the bible talks about having to be like a little child to enter the Kingdom of God.

A little wonder might get us all there.

[ladyinred]

Daniel,I have alot of respect for you because of your honesty.We all fall short but it takes alot of introspection and honesty to admit that we have our own issues so to speak. But that's also a catalyst for change and growing.

[Emproph]

I'm also a hateful bigot (I tend to hate bigots). But I don't mistake that for Christian love.

[ladyinred]

http://www.holisticharmony.com/courses/miracles/01miracles.asp Often those who judge others and who hold prejudicial views are dealing with a distorted sense of reality that they project on others.

[ladyinred]

The question Alakazoom is why such a preoccupation with homosexuality? Why do you think it is your duty to judge and save other people?Are they asking for your help or advice? Are they asking you to save them? Again why did Jesus say to focus on the beam in your own eye before you offer to help remove the speck in anothers. Think about what is at the heart of his message.

You perhaps need to examine your own motives before "helping" others perhaps? What you don't see is none here is interested in changing to conform to your world views and judgments of right and wrong. They aren't interested in fitting your mental box or preconceptions of how they need to behave or should change to find grace and acceptance in your eyes,nor do they need your approval.

Is it that you see something you don't like about homosexuality based in your belief that they are "evil" and should change? That is your perception not theirs nor their belief about themselves, they just don't happen to agree with your evaluation of them. If you are hell bent on trying to change them and convince them of how "wrong" they are, it won't work. Are you somehow affected negatively by that? It has nothing to do with you and your life and they certainly aren't harming you in any way.

They just happen not to agree with you,is the world going to come to an end if they don't?

[ladyinred]

In other words people can only be true to themselves. They shouldn't have to try to change just so you think they are "ok." You may need to deal with that issue your self. They "is" what they "is" .Perhaps you haven't heard that the key to mental health is "to thine own self be true" Or happy is the man who is mentally faithful to himself. Alakazoom. You can take us or "leave" us. Your choice. But we are what we are and you cannot change us or convince us to be different.No one here should feel compelled to explain anything to you.
Perhaps this poem will explain it: (This a gift to you all)

Unconditionally Me

by Jim Messina

I am who I am

You cannot change me so please do not try

So let up with the criticisms, put downs and attempts to make me fit your "box" for me

Face it, it is easier for you just to accept me as I am than to work at making me who you want me to be

Of course you do not have to agree with what I say or do

Just accept me as the human I am

I am weak, have sinned, failed, and have made many mistakes in my life

Hey, that's what makes me the "unique me" that I am

I will never be perfect, ideal, or the "image" you want for me

Accept me for who I am as I accept you for who you are

Let's have fun together and allow our "real selves" the freedom to be "us"

We can be a team of unconditional mutual love and acceptance if you relax and let it happen

[ladyinred]

http://www.whitecranejournal.com/wc01116.htm

Excerpt from the article:
"Yet another facet of The Shadow is the reality, obvious to gay men but compulsively opaque to most straight people, that the sexual sins that homosexuals get blamed for, especially child molestation and devaluating the family, are in fact behaviors of heterosexuals that the mainstream culture supports them in denying, like sexual attraction to their own children and loss of interest in their marriages. Their problems are projected onto us, the gay men whose lives are lived in the culture's Shadow. We get blamed for the culture's problems and laws get passed against us, but nobody actually addresses the real problems."


Now these statements are not being judgmental, what they are saying is we can not hope to solve societal problems by scapegoating a certain group of people. We have to deal with them individually and collectively. (Me)


"Shadow as Internalized Homophobia "

In the gay world, Shadow has another sort of meaning, parallel to the Jungian but with a different emphasis. Here it refers to so-called internalized homophobia, our tendency to accept the mainstream culture's disapproval of sex in general and homosexuality in particular and then to judge ourselves badly and repress our sexual feelings into unconsciousness so that we experience them as compulsions and uncontrollable urges. Such negative self-judgment results in depression and rigidity.

[Emproph]

..since I believe homosexuality is a sin..

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

[Dash]

I'm not going to get in a big old debate with you guys, however, it is standard doctrine that kosher laws no longer exist. Its written in scripture: Acts 10:9-16.

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Acts 10:9-16, which was referenced above. The story continues...

While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"

The dream is interpreted. Has nothing to do with Kosher Laws.

Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Many here are filled with the Spirit. It manifests itself again and again in glorious displays of wisdom and love.

May none of you ever doubt that we are acceptable to the Divine heart, for if the Spirit has found us acceptable, who will keep us out?

This story is an important lesson for both those who oppose queer folk and those who believe the Bible is inerrant. Nothing is inerrant that changes itself.

[ladyinred]

"Nothing is inerrant that changes itself. " Hmmmmmm words to ponder ,nothing is inerrant that changes itself.

[pnggrad79]

So, I see that I've got a lot of responses to look at.

Ladyinred, you seem to be saying that we shouldn't help each other with our sins. You seem to be saying that having accountability for our sins is basically illogical, because the person who will be keeping us in check is only judging us.

If a buddy of mine says that he is a Christian but is also a fornicator, I am going to go point out his sin to him. Is that judging? Is it wrong of me to worry about the spiritual health of my friend? No, actually it is biblical that we take care of each other not only physically but spiritually as well.

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.



P.S.

Boy does typing on a forum take patience heh, I wish I could talk instead.

AL,

I think most people today, at least in the Christian community, have taken this admonition a little too seriously. I believe if that buddy of yours was fornicating, you need to gently take him/her aside and talk with them, NOT POINT FINGERS, and pray for them. There but for the grace of God, it might have been or is YOU. Beyond gentle admonition and lots of introspective prayer, it is NOT YOUR BUSINESS. You are NOT the HOLY SPIRIT and last time I checked, IT WASN'T YOU WHO DIED FOR MY SINS!

We should care for one another spiritually but only in the vein that we are all on a journey and where I am spiritually may not be where you are, so it is not my place to judge your spirituality and vice versa. The Bible tells us to build each other up, not tear down. The Bible tells us to speak to each other with love, and grace. Not condemnation or judgment. Love casts out fear. The Bible is a book of LIFE, not Death. When you set out to "witness" to us here at Soulforce, you speak DEATH to us, because your message is contentious and divisive and it seems that all you want to do is stir up trouble, and believe me, we have had enough of that in our lives.

I wish for one day you could live as most of us do. I wish for one day, you didn't have the right to marry your spouse. I wish for one day you had to wait in the waiting room while the one you love is being operated on, but because you are not family, no one talks to you about anything. I wish for one day that you could be run out of your church because you are gay. I wish for one day, that you can't put your spouse on your insurance, or file "married" on your taxes and get that huge tax benefit. I wish for one day someone would paint in ugly colors all over your car, "FAG", or beat you up because you are gay, or they suspect you are. I wish for one day, your father and mother refuse to talk to you and disinherit you, or you are denied access to your own children because you're gay. I wish for one day you could live like we do and maybe your perspective would change.This my friend is our life as gay and lesbian Christians. But you have no idea what that is all about, because you live a privileged straight existence and will never know what any of that is like.

Get your finger out of my face and look at your own heart. If you want to witness to us, witness Christ's unbounding love, grace and mercy as he died as every gay man, every lesbian, every straight person when he was crucified. Witness to us faithfulness, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control and peace. Please don't speak into our lives DEATH and DESTRUCTION. So much of our lives have already had enough of that spoken into it.

We welcome lively discussion and even disagreement, that is the spice of life. We will not let anyone, however, brow beat, judge, or speak libelous of us or malign who we are.

[fredyboy]

(this is alakazoom)

Yeah, Keltic impolitely interrupted our conversation and banned me. For saying this:

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.

He has been looking for a reason to ban me and so, when I finally said my beliefs on homosexuality he pounced on me like a tigger... However, I'll probably be banned for making closing comments. Two things:

ladyinred:

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

emproph:

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.


Love you all, go ahead and ban me keltic for expressing my "oppressive" views.

[u-dog]

Yeah Keltic! Go ahead and ban him. I call dibs on a front row seat on Judgement day so I can watch him squirm with guilt and contrition when he finally understands what he and those like him have been doing to God's glbt children.

Of course I know that God will forgive him, wrapped as he will be in the righteousness of Christ, but I just wanna be there when the whole truth is opened before him.

Of course I'll have to stand there and squirm for WANTING to see him squirm, but it will be worth it.

[Daniel]

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).


If this is your version of compassion and Christian love, you have a long way to go.

You don't understand gay people because you are busy judging them, and perhaps, even yourself.

You think your message that I and my husband of 15 years are detestable is a 'good work'? Sorry. Doesn't feel good to me.

You views are oppressive and misguided if only from a lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture itself. Maybe you will come to see this in this lifetime.

Love will find a way.

[keltic63]

(this is alakazoom)

Yeah, Keltic impolitely interrupted our conversation and banned me. For saying this:

Now, you guys for some reason think that I believe I have no sin... (that would be judging in itself right there)... what makes you think that I am self-righteous by saying that we should help each other spiritually by keeping each other accountable? All of your tones seem to be saying that: since I believe homosexuality is a sin that, by default, I am now a self-rightous bigot who only wants to judge and hurt homosexuals.

He has been looking for a reason to ban me and so, when I finally said my beliefs on homosexuality he pounced on me like a tigger... However, I'll probably be banned for making closing comments. Two things:

ladyinred:

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

emproph:

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.


Love you all, go ahead and ban me keltic for expressing my "oppressive" views.


Banned again.

and let me take a moment to point OUT a few things here.

keltic is merely the moderator, the Principal, if you will. I make sure that our members play nice and follow the rules.
the Rules, are what you agreed to abide by when you joined this site. Either you didn't understand them, alakazoom/fredy, or you chose to ignore them. Obviously, your word means nothing. I think we've seen this before in other fundamentalist christians in which it's determined that it's ethical to lie in order to accomplish the fundamentalist agenda.
homophobia is an interesting thing. internalized homophobia is far more interesting! It can cause some people to return to their gay and lesbian friends, because they identify with them, yet that identification with them turns to hatred because they cannot stand to see their own reflection.
the truth, alakazoom/fredy/matthew, is that many of the members who have engaged you in dialogue have also pm'd me to request that you be banned. I explained that you would only be banned when and if you violated the guidelines, which you have done now, at least twice.
I hope the best for you zoom! when you need help because someone discovers your secret, I hope you're able to find a group like ours to give you some support.

[u-dog]

If Steve is right and you have a secret and you get ready to deal with it ... come back here. Most of us understand the way that homophobia and oppression twist and deform our character and will be quick to forgive

[Zerbie]

Guys,
'Zoom, etc. - - *IF* Keltic is correct in the surmise that you may be struggling with your own sexuality, and if someday you ever do want to reach out and explore self-acceptance, come back, we'll be here.

With all due respect though, guys, do you think we might be jumping to conclusions that 'zoom is gay?

Ducking out, now. :shield:

[pnggrad79]

Keltic, I will defend you! Zoom apparently just became a member to express his oppressive, prejudiced, narrow minded views, and to hurt yet another gay person. Thank you for banning him! We have no need of any more hurt, death and destruction in this forum! Enough, off with you, Zoom. Be gone, and your little dog, too!

Another fundy back to the boiling pot to see what other trouble he can brew! I hope one day it all comes back to you, buddy. I hope someone you love dearly turns out to be gay, and then you'll know the hurt you have dispensed in the name of Jesus to us.:(:(:(:(

[BrentRichards]

About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."
"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Acts 10:9-16, which was referenced above. The story continues...

While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon's house was and stopped at the gate. They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Simon, three men are looking for you. So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them."

Peter went down and said to the men, "I'm the one you're looking for. Why have you come?"

The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say." Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?"

The dream is interpreted. Has nothing to do with Kosher Laws.

Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us."

Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

"We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Many here are filled with the Spirit. It manifests itself again and again in glorious displays of wisdom and love.

May none of you ever doubt that we are acceptable to the Divine heart, for if the Spirit has found us acceptable, who will keep us out?

This story is an important lesson for both those who oppose queer folk and those who believe the Bible is inerrant. Nothing is inerrant that changes itself.

Preach it Dash! This would be a good time to pass the plate ... I know I'd dig deep after that sermon!

[ladyinred]

ladyinred:

I do what I do because of the Great Commission, Christ told us to go out into the world and spread the gospel. So, read Acts and read James. We are to go out into the world and DO good works and not sit around philosophizing about whether or not God was "just kidding" when he called homosexuality detestable. (Look at the reasons why the Levitical laws were made, most were made for the times back then, but when something is called detestable by GOD then, I'll take his Word for it).

emproph:

If it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?

I wouldn't understand why people would do it.


After reading Dash's response on the bible,I agree nothing inerrant changes. The laws of the old testament were tribal and pertained to the Hebrew people and their viewpoints of the outside world which they were often in conflict with, they were also clannish as Dash pointed out in their rejection of Gentiles as "Unclean" or as unfavored by God.

Then God suddenly appears to Peter to accept the Gentiles and not to see them as unclean because that is not God's will.This alone points out that their old rules and customs apparently were considered wrong by God .(So apparently even the Apostles could be proven wrong in their ideas and beliefs)
Even though in the old testament they were supposedly told by God not to associate with the heathen and even to kill them, the Hebrews in those days firmly believed that anyone else outside their own little group was heathen, they would not even marry them, because they were not God's chosen,like they the Hebrews were.

So we now see that verses in the old testament banning other nations and tribes (gentiles) were apparently erroneous, they got it wrong.

. I don't think people here are asking you to point out the "error" of their way or to save them. I often think people who think that they can act like God often have ulterior motives. This forum is not for proselytizing here for people to browbeat gay people and "convict" them of the errors of their ways.

This is a forum of support for LGBT people who have been ostracized often by their church and families and those who firmly believe that LGBT people are not sinful by nature.


You talk about being banned, now the shoe is on the other foot because many times when SoulForce tries to dialogue with churches or religious leaders they are automatically banned from the table of discussion. So they reserve the right to do the same if they feel someones language or posture is offensive to them.At least they allowed you on this forum to discuss things, but they also reserve the right to disagree with you and your position on the bible.

You may have a right to your own views but what Soul Force is saying is don't IMPOSE them on people here.You are already convinced that LGBT people are guilty and sinful by default, so you are trying to use guilt to browbeat them.Do not say you aren't because you are using the bible exactly for that end. You have just by your own admission of the above words said homosexual people are detestable and sinful, this very much mirrors your view of LGBT people. I will say again people here do not want your advice on how they need to be saved.LEAVE THEM ALONE.That is between their soul's and God

You claim to speak for the bible but do you actually know the perspectives of the authors when they spoke against something, do you know any thing about past civilizations or their traditions or tribal mentality? You can only interpret at best guess what they were saying from only your own point of view. Do you claim to speak for God then? On what basis? Have you heard his voice speak through you?
Do you claim to know the perspective by which the scripture speaks? There was no word for homosexuality until the 19th century. Biblical translations are ambigious at best. And even the bible itself as mentioned about Peter above and in Dash's post, prove the apostles could be wrong in their outlook of things.

Read:
A word about taking the bible literally, it is impossible for two reasons. First, the English translations preachers claim to be the literal word of God, are not always true to the original language of the Bible, Hebrew. All translations are really interpretations, and there are over 400 biblical words known as hapax legomena, whose English translation we don't know. The English you read is a best guess. The second reason why biblical literalism is impossible is because no one takes the entire bible literally. Serpent handling Pentecostal Christians in Appalachia come closest to following the words of Jesus literally in Mark 16. Perhaps you are aware of people who advocate self-mutilation in obedience to Jesus’ words in Mark 9. I'm not. And if we were to execute children who insult their parents as is written in Deuteronomy 21, we’d all be dead.

--Rabbi Micah Greenstein
from the sermon "Religion Without Humor Is Blasphemy"

[BrentRichards]

Yeah, Keltic impolitely interrupted our conversation and banned me.

How rude, Keltic! How could you be impolite to such a kind and gentle soul, and just when we were enjoying our "conversation" with him so much.

He has been looking for a reason to ban me and so, when I finally said my beliefs on homosexuality he pounced on me like a tigger...

You are a vicious tigger, Steve. That's T - I- Double Guh- ER. A.A. Milne is not for the faint of heart.

Love you all, go ahead and ban me keltic for expressing my "oppressive" views.

"Love you all, you detestable abominations!"

Sigh, I think I'll miss him. Well, maybe. I'll try to. Nope, no good, I'm already over it.

[tymejumper]

I'm not going to get in a big old debate with you guys, however, it is standard doctrine that kosher laws no longer exist. Its written in scripture: Acts 10:9-16.

Kosher meats may be in the Bible, but how about usery? (The loaning of money and demanding repayment with interest involved) I believe that was never written out of the Bible anywhere. I guess every savings and loan, bank and credit card company should be stoned also!

Also, a question, did not Jesus come to tell us how we were suppost to live? Did he not say those ways are the old ways? He changed several things from the old testament. He NEVER had one thing to say about homosexuality and also I believe even in the lod testament it says that " a man shall not lie down with a man like a woman", no where does it say that women should not lie down with women! Does that mean only that gay males are sinners? LOL It sure pays to be a lesbian!:lol:

[tymejumper]

Do you honestly believe that any Christian that believes homosexuality is a bigot/hypocrite? Basically, you are putting all Christians who don't believe on your views of what sexual immorality is in one category, and that by default is wrong.

Your argument seems to say: right Christians shouldn't have any concern for homosexual Christians because right Christians are all having premarital sex, all right Christians are divorced, and all right Christians are hypocrites. Do you see how unfair this is? The tone of your posts seems to say that the best and most righteous Christians are the ones who approve of homosexuality.

Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians.

*prepares to be hated and yelled at by soulforce forum although alakazoom87 has not stated his own beliefs on the matter*

The only thing I can say to prove homosexuality is NOT the sin many Christains and other religions are making it out to be is the fact that they believe God is all knowing and can do anything. Did not God destroy Soddom and Gomorra?(propbaly spelled wrong)This was done because of all the sin (many seem to think that is was because of homosexuals) Well, if homoseuxal sex really offended the All Mighty THAT much, he would proceed to destroy all homosexuals much in the same manner of that fatefull city. Now, I dont want to hear about freewill and such becuase the only people who got to exercise freewill were the couple who left the city and his wife looked back and turned to a pillar! It is obvious that some may say that HIV is the "gay desease" and that is Gods way, well then why are heteros geting it? and children? and why do we have protease inhibitors that help people stricken with it to live full lives and longer lives? Certainly if he has passed his judgement on our sin then we would be able to do nothing to stop the rampage. When someone gives a sound and valid reason to as why homosexual sex is a sin, other than a book, then I will believe it.

[ladyinred]

Also, a question, did not Jesus come to tell us how we were suppost to live? Did he not say those ways are the old ways? He changed several things from the old testament. He NEVER had one thing to say about homosexuality .
lol:
Here again you are correct ,Jesus broke the sabbath rules ,even though it in the old testament expressly states those who work on the sabbath shall be put to death, they were not even allowed to light fires in their own homes.( He was often criticized for teaching and healing on the sabbath and for he and the disciples harvesting grain on the sabbath to eat which was considered work by the pharisees,of course according to the bible you cannot even gather sticks on the sabbath in the old testament)

In the old testament ,It says God commanded an eye for an eye ,a tooth for a tooth,Jesus said ye had heard in the days of old where it is written an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you ,Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you..
If these were apparent mandates given by God why did Jesus change them ,wouldn't that have been against God and his commands? Apparently there was something wrong with the old system in the first place and why Christ came was to correct the erroneous notions people had about God .It also shows(To me PROVES) that the bible is not the inerrant and infallible word of God because Jesus contradicted the old testament mandates and rules many times.(Not fasting for one,associating with the "heathen" for another, and many others)

Personally I haven't seen anything in the bible where it claims it is infallible or inerrant. Have any of you all read that statement or claim in the bible, I haven't.

[ladyinred]

tymejumper, it is silly to believe that God's wrath is on homosexuals by punnishing them with aids. Look at Africa with the 12 million + children being orphaned because of the aids epidemic, do you honestly think God would punnish children by making them orphaned and left to fend on their own with no parents and to roam the streets without a home.Does that sound fair? Does that sound like what a loving merciful God would do? Do you think children should have to suffer because of parents mistakes.If people believe that aids has anything to do with God's wrath, he must be pretty cruel to take it out on innocent children who have no control over their parents behavior.

[ladyinred]

My question is why these people have an obsessive focus on homosexuality. What is behind that?

[ladyinred]

"Also, your argument still doesn't satisfy the claim that homosexuality is not a sin, it merely illudes the subject all together by pointing the finger back at right Christians."Alakazoom

First your words are an assault on many here implying that they aren't Christians, when many here are of the Christian faith, since your sins don't nullify your claim to be a Christian , neither does the so-called sin of homosexuality nullify the fact that they are Believers in God and Christ.

You seem focused on the "sin" of homosexuality while those who divorced and go to church are still considered Christians even though the bible and Jesus spoke against it, how is it you use certain sins to exclude certain people then? Ever had premarital sex?
The bible admantly speaks against it ( I was reading where the vast majority of people here in the US are not virgins and it is said a very small minority actually are, so according to the bible they are not "Christians?")are you excluded from the church because of that by the way?

And if you literally believe the bible as unerring and infallible,those who commit fornication and adultery( Jesus also said a man who divorces his wife,save for fornication, and marries another commits adultery and causes the woman to if she remarries) will not inherit the kingdom of God,(1 Cor 6:9 the same one you use to condemn homosexuals)that will exclude a hell of alot of people then so evidently they cannot (according to your infallible , unerring biblical worldview) be considered Christians by virtue of "sin" either. How is it you overlook certain "sins" as acceptable in the eyes of God where others aren't and then excommunicate homosexuals from your churches? What is the rationale for that by the way?

By the way there is no way to undo divorce and fornicating once you've done them, even if you divorced your current partner and remarried your former, you still again have comitted the "sin" of divorce. So since you literally believe the bible as God's inerrant and infallible word why is it that you and other straight people don't abide by it's commands and justify overlooking certain "sins" over others? It's all convoluted to me. And apparently nullifies God's mercy and grace . You apparently don't follow the bible tit for tat or literally in many ways, why then do you expect gay people to?
Also the words in 1Corinthians 6:9 were not even said by Jesus but Paul. Jesus never said people would be outcasted from the kingdom because of their actions,he just didn't agree with them. But also stated that the kingdom of heaven was within and for people to fear not for it was the father's good pleasure to bring the kingdom unto them.

From my view the bible is pretty much a controversial mess, which is why I study alternative forms of Christianity like the course in miracles and progressive thinking on Christianity that feels the bible is just incomplete in it's answers and that there is room for improvement and evolution in our understanding of God and Christianity.I also take inspiration from buddhism and other religions. Because there is so much confusion around morality and religion, there is something that I do take literally from the bible,"God is not the author of confusion but of PEACE." So to me anything that does not promote the wellbeing of a person or persons or peace of mind is off kilter or off balance. I also feel the way to God is an individual matter as he speaks to our hearts, from the Course's standpoint you can only find the truth within you.

[pnggrad79]

Here again you are correct ,Jesus broke the sabbath rules ,even though it in the old testament expressly states those who work on the sabbath shall be put to death, they were not even allowed to light fires in their own homes.( He was often criticized for teaching and healing on the sabbath and for he and the disciples harvesting grain on the sabbath to eat which was considered work by the pharisees,of course according to the bible you cannot even gather sticks on the sabbath in the old testament)

In the old testament ,It says God commanded an eye for an eye ,a tooth for a tooth,Jesus said ye had heard in the days of old where it is written an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth, but I say unto you ,Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you..
If these were apparent mandates given by God why did Jesus change them ,wouldn't that have been against God and his commands? Apparently there was something wrong with the old system in the first place and why Christ came was to correct the erroneous notions people had about God .It also shows(To me PROVES) that the bible is not the inerrant and infallible word of God because Jesus contradicted the old testament mandates and rules many times.(Not fasting for one,associating with the "heathen" for another, and many others)

Personally I haven't seen anything in the bible where it claims it is infallible or inerrant. Have any of you all read that statement or claim in the bible, I haven't.



LadyinRed,
There was something wrong with the OLD system, that is why is called the OLD testament. If Zoom would read his Bible, all of it, he would notice that in Hebrews, it tells us all the way through it that Jesus was the new covenant, the new promise, the hope of salvation. He broke through an obsolete system of rules and regulations that from the outset, God knew creation couldn't meet. Therefore, they had the system of blood sacrifices. Jesus was the finisher of that sacrifice, he paid the final price once and for all, finishing the covenant God wanted with his creation. That is tremendous hope for gays and lesbians, that on that day when Christ died, he became us on the cross, effectively paying the price for us as us, and now God looks at us through the blood of Christ, and not through that old system. We are clean, we are whole, we are free!

A lot of conservative Christians conveniently forget that little part, and like to point fingers because they pay lip service to grace, and speak about it, sing about it, but rarely dispense it as we saw with Zoom. He is just an example of those who hate us and are out to prove we are wrong. He needs our prayers and our compassion. Jesus told us to pray for our accuser and love those who spitefully use us. Hard to do, but....

I am not aware of any place in the Bible that says it is inerrant and infallible. The Bible is replete with examples of how God changes his mind, alters his plan, pursues another course.

Sadly, the Christian community shakes its collective head and says,"God, you're not doing it right, all this grace and love stuff, don't you realize, if we extend grace to all the homosexuals then they are going to infiltrate our churches, and government and poison our children's minds. We can't do that, God. See, where you went wrong is, you said "Whosoever" when we really don't want all the "Undesirables". We can let the divorcees in, because God, if we didn't, our churches would be empty and how are we going to afford that new Lexus and that million dollar home we just bought? But we draw the line at homosexuals, because, well, I love my hairdresser and my mechanic, but that is where they need to stay, as servants and taxpayers to the white, straight establishment. We can't treat them like you do, because well, it would just look bad on us, God. So, forgive us God, but you're not doing it right. We will just correct it for you and you can stay up there in heaven and do your thing, and we will just take care of it for you." And that is exactly what they do, and all the while, the church continues to resemble less and less what Christ intended for the church to be. The church today is losing credibility and stature, people no longer feel the church has anything to offer because it is in the business of condemning people instead of welcoming them, and closing its doors to homosexuals, and encouraging families to disown their gay children, etc.

It is sad, but what we are seeing with this latest bandwagon the Christians are on, is a last desperate attempt to control the hearts and minds of the people. They are losing, and they know it. They won't go down without a fight, but they always lose- slavery (cost this nation a Civil War), women's rights(got the right to vote in 1919 and reproductive freedom in 1973), the Inquisition(lasted 300 years) the Holocaust(last 12 years), the Crusades( lasted about 400 years give or take), all examples of when people used Christianity and the Bible to justify murder and all manner of evil over the centuries. Nowhere does the Bible give permission for any of this, but this is what the Church has done and it just doesn't have much credibility anymore.

So Zoom is just misguided and misinformed and who knows why he joined this forum. He will have to answer to God for that one, but Keltic did the right thing in kicking him out. This needs to be a safe place for gay and lesbian, bi, or trans people to come and feel like they have a place to be free and talk, laugh, argue, love and pray for one another. God knows we need a safe place when so much of our world is not safe, or welcoming. :injured:

[ladyinred]

"This needs to be a safe place for gay and lesbian, bi, or trans people to come and feel like they have a place to be free and talk, laugh, argue, love and pray for one another. God knows we need a safe place when so much of our world is not safe, or welcoming. " I agree whole heartledly. I laughed about your bit on the lexus.. LOL Yes true the bible throughout the course of history has proved change is possible and even necessary, that" rules" of the past were many times too rigid or strict to adhere to(as in the case of Jesus breaking the sabbath, think how awful it would be if we took old sabbath rules today and applied them to firemen, medical personnel, policemen ,people who had to work on Sunday would have to be put to death, it sounds ridiculous doesn't it, especially if you were having a heart attack and needed to be rushed to the hospital and there had to be someone driving the ambulance to get you there. But I think the bible isn't the end either, there is still a process going on with God and his creation , call it evolution if you want.
We all now know the earth is not flat and probably several billions of years old, the people in the old testament didn't have the technology back then to understand those things. They couldn't see the world through a microscope, there were no archeologists and scientists back then to prove other -wise.

But how does God's grace speak to LGBT people as Alakazoom speaks of it. How many LGBT people have cried in the dark begging God to change them but to no avail only to commit suicide and feel like they were outcasts and unloved by God..That's not God's grace and mercy when it speaks to their own destruction, how does that save a person? I've even written FRC years ago on this , their answer? God is convicting them of their sin. Like who cares. Go drop dead , God is convicting you of your "evil" ways. They just don't get it.They were impervious to the pain .Their words were like hollow registers. No compassion, no ,"Gee, that sounds so horrible is there any way we can help this person,we don't want that to happen." Nothing.
Imagine someone you dearly loved and cared about who became suicidal and distraught,would you say ,"Gee honey, I guess God is convicting you of your evil ways"? Doesn't that sound preposterous? You would probably go out of your way to get them help so they won't do something that drastic.You would not want them to suffer and hurt that way.And you certainly wouldn't want to compound the problem by making it worse for them.

[Emproph]

since I believe homosexuality is a sinIf it weren't a sin how would you feel about it?I wouldn't understand why people would do it.
"One common misunderstanding is that we DO gay."
~awediot

[pnggrad79]

"One common misunderstanding is that we DO gay."
~awediot

Zoom wouldn't understand because he is not gay. And typically when things happen that we don't understand, we automatically assume they are bad. That is what Zoom is doing and the larger Christian church as a whole. The only people who do understand what it is to be gay and Christian are gay Christians.

Zoom is a "ro"(as Keltic says) who thinks that anyone who doesn't think he does is wrong, and he is wrong. He likes to put God in a tiny little box and use him to further his misguided, and warped agenda. I feel sorry for people like him. They are sad little people who have too much time on their hands, and who have something to prove. He needs to just go on with himself and leave us alone.:rolleyes:

[d_pedr]

I'm trying to follow what you are saying here:

Are you saying that by having sex you are automatically married?

Hi, maybe in some way I am, as that is an interpretation that could be given.

Many times in the Bible it talks of weddings (like Jacob and Leah) and then says something like he took her into his tent and slept with her and she became his wife - then in the morning, he finds its Leah not Rachel whom he wanted to marry.
i.e. its not the wedding that does it.

I think that it needs the committed relationship too, to realy be a marriage.

One thing I am sure of is that sex changes the nature of a relationship.

In some ways I was trying to get more discussion, maybe I'll start another thread.

love and hugs

[tymejumper]

tymejumper, it is silly to believe that God's wrath is on homosexuals by punnishing them with aids. Look at Africa with the 12 million + children being orphaned because of the aids epidemic, do you honestly think God would punnish children by making them orphaned and left to fend on their own with no parents and to roam the streets without a home.Does that sound fair? Does that sound like what a loving merciful God would do? Do you think children should have to suffer because of parents mistakes.If people believe that aids has anything to do with God's wrath, he must be pretty cruel to take it out on innocent children who have no control over their parents behavior.

better put than in my reply!

[tymejumper]

If this is your version of compassion and Christian love, you have a long way to go.

You don't understand gay people because you are busy judging them, and perhaps, even yourself.

You think your message that I and my husband of 15 years are detestable is a 'good work'? Sorry. Doesn't feel good to me.

You views are oppressive and misguided if only from a lack of knowledge and understanding of scripture itself. Maybe you will come to see this in this lifetime.

Love will find a way.

I talked to my mother about this forum. She had the best answer. God don't make junk!

I believe that one can find anything they want to in the Bible. When afican americans were fighting for freedom, people used the Bible to "prove" that God didn't want them to be free! The problem comes in when people attempt to interpret the Bible and put their own spin on it. They read whatever they wish to into it. Many books were taken out or edited over the two thousand odd years it has been around and unless we actually go back and sit at Jesus' knee and ask him, we will never truly know what was said. It is in my opinion, best to use the Bible as guide book, not as an EXACT plan for living. The basics being : be good to each other, love each other, don't lie,cheat or steal from each other, help others in need, respect your elders and love your children, find someone to love for your life and be faithful to that person and love them with a full heart, be happy, and be happy with what you have not always yearning for what others have.

Congrats on 15 years!!!!!

[tdogg]

Zoom/Fredy/Matthew, if you are reading this, in your future endeavors it would be helpful for you to understand the meaning of the word "gospel".

It means GOOD NEWS, which is not what you have been 'witnessing' here on these threads. It does not mean hell and condemnation, hate or accusation.

I truly pray that God will help you to open your eyes, ears and then your mind and heart. That way you will be prepared to spread the GOOD NEWS for which you feel such a calling.

Compassion and love to you...