Hi My Name is Paul

[paul]

and I'm er, gay.

I suppose my story won't be atypical. I feel like I've told it so many times but must not be telling it in the right places because I am still alone, which I'm really tired of.

I was raised in a fundamental Christian background so I knew from an early age that ssa was "wrong, sin, broken, twisted, sick, etc." I became a "Jesus Freak" at 15, carried my bible everywhere, read it constantly. As I read it, it is a sin for a man to lie with another man...so, I knew God would change me or at least give me the ability to resist temptation. I confessed my ssa to my church at 19 because I saw I wasn't changing and assumed it was because I was proud and was not confessing my sin. They gathered around me, prayed, bound the enemy and it was never discussed again after that.

I married a woman at 21 (she was a part of the church and was there when I "confessed"). I'd like to say that she knew of my ssa when we married. The truth is, no one "knew" (including myself) what it meant to be attracted to the same sex...this was the 70's and no one knew much of anything. This was still back in the days when "Exodus" was a movie staring Paul Newman. I opened up to my new wife, about a month after we married, that I still struggled with ssa. I was still very confident that God would undertake and that she would be my help mate in the struggle. I was naive, she was naturally devastated and I again realized that I was alone with this. I've been married 30 years.

I came out to my adult sons in December of 06, neither wants anything to do with me right now, I think because I've hurt their mom. My wife wants me to remain with her and still sees ssa as something I didn't choose but that I am still broken. I have a sordid past of cheating on my wife, for which I am ashamed. I've been celibate (as regards men) for a year now (quite a record for me). I had become addicted to anonymous sex. The addiction broke (I don't know how else to put it) when I gave up fighting that I am gay and accepted it. Now I don't feel the least bit driven and am in shock after a lifetime of compulsion, but it's true.

So, I'm a gay man married to a woman who I love and don't ever want to hurt again. There's the short version.
paul

[Zerbie]

:'(:love:

What a tragic story! Not too unusual either. It's just so sad to hear of all that you and your wife went through, and still have to deal with because no one understood what being gay meant. I'm so sorry. :(

I'm glad you came here. You will find a lot of caring people on this forum. A lot of them went through things similar to what you are dealing with. Dave, (aka U-dog) is gay, and still married. . . I'm sure he will see your note soon, and introduce himself to you.

Sorry you're feeling alone in this struggle - I think that will change now that you're here. A lot of people will understand your experience here.

Stick around for a while, jump into the conversations, or start your own topics. I think you'll like it here.

Best to you, your wife, and your family. :pray:

[paul]

Zerbie,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I don't want to sound too pathetic, I have met two very wonderful people on the www in the last 8 months, but I don't want to over stress them with my life, so I hold back. I really need more friends who relate, so I'm hopeful. I also want to be a friend to others, not just be a sponge (easy to do). I've avoided coming here (soulforce) because I deconverted from fundamental Christianity a year and a half ago and wasn't sure that, uh, my kind would be welcomed here,:rolleyes: probably silly, but you know how it is to put yourself out there...thanks again for the welcome.
paul

[antonyh]

Hi Paul. You'll be in my thoughts as you navigate this difficult time in your life. I've not personally gone through what you are experiencing, but I have seen friends go through it. I think you will find that there are plenty of people to talk with on these forums.

[paul]

thanks antonyh.
paul

[Pablo Rafael]

Thanks for sharing your story. I gather from your post that you and I are about the same age. I can relate to a lot of your story. I just knew that God would change me and get rid of the "evil desires". It wasn't until I accepted that it was OK to be gay, that things started to turn around for me. I never chose to get married although the thought had occured to me; I had thought that I could get over being gay if I ignored it and pretended to be straight for long enough.

There are a lot of very compassionate and understanding people here on these forums. Pretty much anything can get discussed as long a a person doesn't try to condem us for being gay. Religiously there are people with a wide-range of religious convictions and practices. Please feel free to share your thoughts and concerns.

By the way, cool name. ;)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[keltic63]

welcome Paul,

Like you, I was brought up in a fundie home, sure that God would change me, got married, had kids, etc.

I left my wife, and now I have a wonderful partner with whom I share my life. I know some good things are in store in the coming year or so ;)

it may be possible for you to remain with your wife, it may not. there are so many "if's" for me, it was a good thing to get out of the marriage. for others, like u-dog, he has decided to stay with his wife and work on the marriage while still recognizing his orientation. Neither way is easy, and no one is going to tell you that a particular way is right for you, only you can decide that.

we're here for you, take advantage of our experience. we love doing that sort of thing!

[u-dog]

Hi Paul! Welcome.

I am the Dave aka U-dog of whom others have spoken. I am married to Polly who will also poke her head in to say "hi" before long no doubt. I am gay and we have three college age sons. We came out to them a few weeks ago. For us that experience has been a very positive one. they received the news with grace and openess.

I came out to Polly as Bi before we married and since she is too that wasn't a deal breaker for her. We have been faithful to each other for our 23.5 years but our intimate relationship has been rocky at best and a cause of pain to both of us. I finally came out to myself and her as gay about 2 years ago now. We continue to work on our relationship in counseling and out. We don't pretend to know where the road is leading, but for now we travel it together. We have raised some good kids together and done some amazing things in spite of the mismatched nature of our relationship. There are things we still want to do together. Anyway... God is good and We'll see what happens next!

I made different choices than you did... more from fear than from character... if the truth were known, but don't imagine that I judge you for the choices you made. Life in a mixed orientation marriage is difficult in many ways and there have been NO road maps or support mechanisms until very recently.

There is a support group on Yahoo for people in Mixed Orientation Marriages and there are several online support groups for women married to gay men. If you want the info on those just PM me and I will pull them together and send them along to you. (THAT GOES FOR ANY OF YOU LURKERS OUT THERE TOO!) You would be amazed how many marriages like ours there are out there! Most marriages end at disclosure but its amazing how many couples decide to stay together and all of the ways they find to make that work!

I hope when you say that you "de-converted" from fundamentalism that it doesn't mean that you have lost your sense of connection to the divine! There are so many affirming communities of Christians out there. God loves you just the way He created you! and there are people who make no bones about telling you so! (like me for instance). There are also people of other faith paths on this forum and they will be willing to share their journeys with you also. There are also people here who have left faith behind. So one way or another you will find support ... spiritual, psychological, emotional, political here.

Welcome home!! :love:

ps: I want to underscore what Steve (Keltic) said. there are several ways that you can go and no one here will try to tell you which is the best way for you or judge you for the decisions you and your wife make. I totally support and affirm Steve's choice to leave his wife and he is very, vocally supportive of me and my choices. Only you are in a position to know what is right for you. we are here to offer whatever we can that is of value from our experience.

[BrentRichards]

Welcome Paul ... I also share some of your experiences, though I narrowly "dodged the bullet" on marriage ... I was engaged at 20, but cowarded out, which was purely by the grace of God.

I was interested in your note of how obsessive thoughts/behaviors abated with openness ... my experience has been similar there. I'm reminded of the AA expression "You're only as sick as your secrets" ... gay is not a sickness, of course(!), but when we keep our identity secret, it can certainly lead us into some unhealthy ways of being.

Anyway, hope you enjoy your stay here!

[paul]

Thank you everyone for your replies and kind welcome.

Pablo,
there's something about your name that I like too...can't quite figure it out...

keltic,
I am glad you were able to decide what to do and that you are happy now, I know it was tough. I look forward to getting to know you. I'm trying to figure it out now. I honestly don't know the 'best' thing to do. I don't want to simply be selfish. I'm not sure what's possible, so it's one step at a time.

udog,
thanks for the warm welcome, your life is pretty amazing. "deconverted..." well, I cannot quite bring myself to say there is no God, I don't know enough to say such a thing. The God I thought I knew doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean there isn't a God, just my ideas were obviously off. I guess I have a better idea of what I believe God isn't than I do of what God is.

Brent,
thanks. re obsessive thoughts/behaviors. no two ways about it, it was addiction. I do think there was something about my beliefs that fed the addiction. The idea that there was someone ("Christ") who would "rescue me from this body of death" vs. me doing it myself. Don't misunderstand me, I don't blame "God," but me. It took me 35 years to figure it out (slow learner, I should never roller skate). For me sex was the only way I wasn't alone, it was the only time I was "known," if only in a small, brief, partial way. The begging, fasting, praying,confession, humiliation, shame, guilt deliverance, Christian therapy, Exodus programs twice...well, everything I could try for 35 years in a "Christian" context didn't infuse me with the strength to even resist, never mind "freedom" from desire. Giving up and just saying "hey, this is the way I am, I didn't choose it, I'm just this way and saying it to anyone and not caring who knew. I stopped "confessing" and simply accepted this part of me and the change was instant. It's really ironic that all the years I fought ssa I couldn't manage to resist, when I gave up fighting I could simply say no to destructive behavior. I'm still in shock waiting for the other shoe to drop, but it isn't dropping. Hard to explain, but there it is.

[keltic63]

keltic,
I am glad you were able to decide what to do and that you are happy now, I know it was tough. I look forward to getting to know you. I'm trying to figure it out now. I honestly don't know the 'best' thing to do. I don't want to simply be selfish. I'm not sure what's possible, so it's one step at a time.


In my case, it was not only unselfish to leave, it would have been deadly for me to stay. I was destroying myself because I blamed myself for all the bad things that happened in the marriage and in the family. I talked to a therapist (my full story is here somewhere, I'll not bore you with the details now) and finally got to a point where I could see that leaving was best for everyone involved. I hated leaving my kids, but keeping them in that atmosphere was bad for them. It made sense for me to move out, but stay in the same city so I could still care for them.

udog,
thanks for the warm welcome, your life is pretty amazing. "deconverted..." well, I cannot quite bring myself to say there is no God, I don't know enough to say such a thing. The God I thought I knew doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean there isn't a God, just my ideas were obviously off. I guess I have a better idea of what I believe God isn't than I do of what God is.

I had several fights with God along the way, and especially as my outting progressed. Fortunately, I had a wonderful pastor who helped me see that God made me the way that I am, and that God wanted me to be the best "steve" that I could be. That can be a difficult thing to comprehend when you've got years of fundie teaching to undo. God's not waiting to slap you down; think of God like a parent watching a toddler learn to walk: the parent roots for the kid and is disappointed when the child falls, but never stops loving the child when he falls. God's rooting for you! God wants the best for you.

Brent,
thanks. re obsessive thoughts/behaviors. no two ways about it, it was addiction. I do think there was something about my beliefs that fed the addiction. The idea that there was someone ("Christ") who would "rescue me from this body of death" vs. me doing it myself. Don't misunderstand me, I don't blame "God," but me. It took me 35 years to figure it out (slow learner, I should never roller skate). For me sex was the only way I wasn't alone, it was the only time I was "known," if only in a small, brief, partial way. The begging, fasting, praying,confession, humiliation, shame, guilt deliverance, Christian therapy, Exodus programs twice...well, everything I could try for 35 years in a "Christian" context didn't infuse me with the strength to even resist, never mind "freedom" from desire. Giving up and just saying "hey, this is the way I am, I didn't choose it, I'm just this way and saying it to anyone and not caring who knew. I stopped "confessing" and simply accepted this part of me and the change was instant. It's really ironic that all the years I fought ssa I couldn't manage to resist, when I gave up fighting I could simply say no to destructive behavior. I'm still in shock waiting for the other shoe to drop, but it isn't dropping. Hard to explain, but there it is.

giving up ssa is like saying that you're trying to give up chocolate; but that's not exactly a good comparison. ssa makes it sound like a behavior, and if it's a behavior then it's a choice. You've finally acknowledged your orientation, and because of that, you realize that there are other, safer, more appropriate opportunities for you. This is good. reminds me somewhat of turning 21, and I actually drank less after I was "legal." You've recognized your orientation, stopped hiding it (at least to some key people in your life) and now that you're "legal" in the sense of being honest, you no longer have the need to sneak about and participate in destructive behavior.

I'm glad you're here.

[fromac6263]

Hi Paul

I know what you are going through I was married twice before I found my partner of 17 yrs. She came into my life at the right time.
I'm a Baptist preachers kid so being a fundamentalist was definately in my vocab.

Please don't ever turn your back on God. He is the God of love not hatred and he wants to still have a relationship with you. He made us and what he has made let no one destroy, mentally or spiritually.

Thanks for your story and welcome

[paul]

keltic,
I hope you didn't take my statement as implication that you were "selfish?" It was a strictly personal statement on my part. I don't have a code carved in stone that I can equally apply to everyone. I am having to weigh out exactly what you mention...is it more selfish to stay or go (for me). I don't know, it's quite a knot to untie. I don't have the same perception of God as you seem/ed to (i.e., "fights with God"). I cannot honestly say I perceive a God to fight with. My definition of God is quite thoroughly undone, and that took 35 years. At best I occassionally speak with an "if you are there" God, but have yet to get a response that I can in some way quantify. Still, if I am praying, I concede there may be a reason beyond residual fundamental roots that remains to be discovered.

Hi fromac,
You were married twice and now have a "partner," are you a woman? (sorry, can't tell by your name or profile). I haven't "turned my back on God" (see above), just my wrong notions about "God." I have to be honest, I can't play the charade anymore. The "God" that I thought I "knew" turned out to be a very elaborate imaginary friend. I am thus very cautious when it comes to "God," but I am confident that if there is a God and if that God want's anything to do with me then that God can certainly get through to me if it's God. It's the people, including my self, who speak for God that I am quick to question. Hope that makes sense.
paul

[u-dog]

I think I understand what you are saying, Paul. After a lifetime of pretending (to others but mostly to yourself) about so many important things, you are especially "squeemish" about anything that looks or feels like self-deception and so if you are to know God again in a REAL way... he/she needs to make the first move? Because you are unable to do that or to trust that it is real if you do? That makes total sense to me. Authenticity is paramount to me right now also... the need for authenticity has been the force that has driven my self-disclosure process from the beginning. I sense that the same may be true for you.


I grew up in a more liberal/moderate Christian home than you did, where questions and doubts were not seen as antithetical to faith and when I went through periods when it was difficult to pray and when God's reality seemed in doubt it was the prayers of others going on outside of earshot that carried me through to the other side.

So... you take it slow and easy. Stay open, but keep it real. God can wait...if nothing else, God is patient. Those of us who are pray-ers (and there are a lot of us here) will hold you up in prayer so that God doesn't forget your name (as if) :pray::love:

[keltic63]

keltic,
I hope you didn't take my statement as implication that you were "selfish?" It was a strictly personal statement on my part. I don't have a code carved in stone that I can equally apply to everyone. I am having to weigh out exactly what you mention...is it more selfish to stay or go (for me). I don't know, it's quite a knot to untie. I don't have the same perception of God as you seem/ed to (i.e., "fights with God"). I cannot honestly say I perceive a God to fight with. My definition of God is quite thoroughly undone, and that took 35 years. At best I occassionally speak with an "if you are there" God, but have yet to get a response that I can in some way quantify. Still, if I am praying, I concede there may be a reason beyond residual fundamental roots that remains to be discovered.


oh, Paul, I absolutely didn't take your statement as any indictment of my own selfishness; I did recognize that argument though! I know of that decision process, is it more selfish to stay or to go?

I'm going to throw something out here for comment. what is your wife's part in this situation? for example, I knew going into my marriage that I am gay, but never said anything about it for a number of reasons. I mostly figured that being married would straighten me out. my wife (now ex) made a decision to marry me, when it was obvious to others that I am gay. so at some point, the question becomes "why was an obviously gay man acceptable for marriage, in my wife's opinion?" there were benefits for both of us in that marriage. when I could no longer uphold my end of the deal, the marriage fell apart.

in your situation, you disclosed early on that you are gay, yet she stayed with you all these years. to me, there is some complicity in that arrangement. can you think about what your marriage "deal" was and how it benefitted both of you? that may help you figure out what to do next.

[u-dog]

I don't know why people say you aren't smart, STeve. That was a very profound insight. Good question!

[keltic63]

I don't know why people say you aren't smart, STeve. That was a very profound insight. Good question!

I have brief moments of clarity :mad: ;)

[paul]

u-dog,
I saw the trailer for your new movie on Wednesday, it's fun to meet a movie star.:D

I did grow up in a very conservative Christian home vs. your liberal/moderater roots. Perhaps you are familiar with Vernon McGhee and John MacArthur? John baptized me as a teen and as a child we attended McGhees church. At 17 I got "baptized in the Holy Spirit" and swung over to Jack Hayfords church...so my roots are decidedly fundamental. 8 years ago I was asked to pastor a church where I often taught, to give you a little more idea of how familiar I am with this. I don't think I can take it any differently that "slow and easy," I'm toast. Any faster and harder and I suspect I'll be ashes:eek:. I am fairly at ease. I know the/my human penchant for self deception, and figure if there is a God, God knows it too. Also, if "God is love" what would I have to fear from God? Still, life is short and it would be nice to know one way or the other;).

keltic,
Glad I didn't come across that way. I'm often guilty of being too succinct in my written communication...I assume people can read my mind. Also, I constantly mourn the missing cues of tone and facial expression in the written word.

re: my "wife's part in the situation," "complicity," and our "marriage deal." I am her "one and only" and she wishes it to remain that way in spite of everything. She will live with a gay man, but not with one who acts on ssa. So the question seems to be if I can live that way the rest of my life? I have only just found self control in the last year, but then, there's also the emotional element...which has always struck me as the larger issue in my ssa. To me the term "complicity" fits only in a retrospective sense. Though our getting married might be construed as a crime, we could probably both get off on an insanity plea. She remains a conservative Christian. She believes she can love me better than any other, and that ssa is destructive to act on. We have both benefitted and suffered in varying degrees for our decision

[keltic63]

re: my "wife's part in the situation," "complicity," and our "marriage deal." I am her "one and only" and she wishes it to remain that way in spite of everything. She will live with a gay man, but not with one who acts on ssa. So the question seems to be if I can live that way the rest of my life? I have only just found self control in the last year, but then, there's also the emotional element...which has always struck me as the larger issue in my ssa. To me the term "complicity" fits only in a retrospective sense. Though our getting married might be construed as a crime, we could probably both get off on an insanity plea. She remains a conservative Christian. She believes she can love me better than any other, and that ssa is destructive to act on. We have both benefitted and suffered in varying degrees for our decision

that's very much what I'm talking about, but both of you need to see that there isn't a "victim" and "perpetrator" in that scenario. the deal may have been unspoken (a covert contract in psycho-analytic terms) but it was a deal nonetheless. I agree that both of you have benefitted and suffered because of the decisions. My point is to be careful that your wife doesn't take on the role of a martyr because of your orientation. Mine did, and still does.

I'm concerned about your use of SSA. I think it implies some control on your part, or at least from the way the fundies/anti-gay groups use that term, it reduces it to a disorder, or a syndrome. I'd like to think that changing your way of thinking about that might save you some trouble later: imagine going with your wife to a counselor; you say "I'm gay" she says "he suffers from SSA" you can see how that would make a difference, especially depending on the counselor and their particular mindset.

[paul]

that's very much what I'm talking about, but both of you need to see that there isn't a "victim" and "perpetrator" in that scenario. the deal may have been unspoken (a covert contract in psycho-analytic terms) but it was a deal nonetheless. I agree that both of you have benefitted and suffered because of the decisions. My point is to be careful that your wife doesn't take on the role of a martyr because of your orientation. Mine did, and still does.

I'm concerned about your use of SSA. I think it implies some control on your part, or at least from the way the fundies/anti-gay groups use that term, it reduces it to a disorder, or a syndrome. I'd like to think that changing your way of thinking about that might save you some trouble later: imagine going with your wife to a counselor; you say "I'm gay" she says "he suffers from SSA" you can see how that would make a difference, especially depending on the counselor and their particular mindset.

keltic,
re: "victim" and "perpetrator." I hope I am not botching this too badly and mis-representing my wife. By my own estimation, my wife is certainly a victim in some respects. I think we were equally naive about what my being attracted to the same sex and God's involvement in the same, meant. I'd call that a draw, though it seems I should have been more aware having already dealt with those attractions for years before marriage (though I was a virgin when I married, I had a normal teenaged sex drive). My beliefs in a God who just said no to ssa superceeded any other drives when it came to the decisions I made. Perhaps if I'd been more open about how hard the struggle was, she would not have married me, who knows? At the time, it took all the courage I could muster to say anything. I had my first same sex experience when I was 26, five years into marriage. There's no pretty way to put that, I cheated on her and in that respect she is a "victim." On top of that, I lied to cover the cheating, which I have come to see as worse. I cheated and lied a lot. I got caught up in a cycle of failure and "repentance", the whole "that which I would not do, that do I do" the whole time begging God to help. So, you see, she was a victim. She didn't sign up for that. My real failure, which took me entirely to long to see, was that I expected "God" to help me change instead of taking responsibility for my own life. I really effed up. After age 32 there were pastors, Christian councelors, Exodus programs helping me maintain that notion that "God" would do something, but the truth is, none of these people is to blame for my behavior. I am ashamed to admit all this, but it's all true. The rub is how many times I've bared my soul in the hopes of stopping the cycle only to not have a solution. I could have prevented a lot of pain if I had cried uncle long ago. My wife and kids are convinced I just didn't do enough. Well, having lived this in secret and alone, they don't know that there wasn't a week that went passed without tears and begging God for an answer. So, if there is a God, God knows...wish God would tell them. Sorry, I am really going on here.

re my use of "ssa." Don't worry about that, it's the easiest thing to write, just laziness on my part. I am attracted both physically and emotionally to the same sex, that's what it means when I use it.

[u-dog]

that's very much what I'm talking about, but both of you need to see that there isn't a "victim" and "perpetrator" in that scenario. the deal may have been unspoken (a covert contract in psycho-analytic terms) but it was a deal nonetheless. I agree that both of you have benefitted and suffered because of the decisions. My point is to be careful that your wife doesn't take on the role of a martyr because of your orientation. Mine did, and still does.

This is an issue in our MOM also... Not so much that Polly does the martyr thing (she doesn't) but rather that I take on the role of "perpetrator" "Aren't I terrible that I did this thing to Polly" Luckily she and our counselor don't let me get away with it much.

I'm concerned about your use of SSA. I think it implies some control on your part, or at least from the way the fundies/anti-gay groups use that term, it reduces it to a disorder, or a syndrome. I'd like to think that changing your way of thinking about that might save you some trouble later: imagine going with your wife to a counselor; you say "I'm gay" she says "he suffers from SSA" you can see how that would make a difference, especially depending on the counselor and their particular mindset.

On the other hand, Steve, SSA is an important ASPECT of being gay. And in the context of Paul's marriage to a straight woman it is sort of the KEY componant at least insofar as it is involved in his non (or limited) attraction to her.

She has a right to information about and to an opinion about how and whether you (Paul) act on the SSA aspect of your identity as a gay man since , in a matter of speaking, she sleeps with everyone you do.

A much more important question is: If she can't accept your SSA and doesn't want to understand and know about it ... then she doesn't really want to understand and know about YOU. If your SSA is her "enemy" then ... so are you. What kind of a marriage is that?

Are you guys in couple's therapy? (none of my business.. I know) If you aren't and want to be google "Joe Kort" he is a gay therapist in Chicago who does work with gay men but is sort of a pioneer in working with Mixed Orientation Marriages. I think he has resources for finding a therapist who will/can work with people in our situation.

You will want to consider:

1. Is the therapist comfortable with and supportive of your wife's spiritual outlook (but stay away from any one who calls themselves a "Christian Counselor" thats poison)

2. Does the therapist have a pre-conceived notion of the outcome of your work? You need someone who just wants to help you both to figure out the best path. Many therapists will think they "know" how this story should end. avoid such people. Polly and I work with a gay therapist who sometimes holds our marriage more faithfully than we do ourselves and sometimes kicks our butts to be more realistic about what's possible. both things are necessary if we are going to find our way. (Polly may disagree with me or have more to say. I will let her speak for herself ;) I've learned something in 23.5 years!

[paul]

Hey gang, I want you to know how much I appreciate all the feedback. It's been a long lonely life. I've spilled my guts a few times, but few people can relate as you do, and it's good. I don't enjoy telling it all, but history is part of the process of being known, and you can hardly be expected to give good feed back to a slanted story. Will take time to fill in the spaces, but it's nice to have people who nod their heads instead of faint or glaze over.

U-dog,
The bad news is, I have been "the perpetrator," unfortunately, the shoe fits. The good news is, I am no longer and haven't been for a year. That means more to me than it does to my wife. Part of the equation is can she ever get beyond what I have done? She assures me that she "forgives me and holds none of what I have done to my account." That's a wonderful thing, but does not remove any of the scars for her, so, it's hard to see what the benefit is to either of us.

She is convinced that she does understand enough about my ssa. Unfortunately, I fit the neat stereotype...bullied my whole childhood, overbearing mom, emotionally absent dad, and an older gay brother who my mom has suggested may have "messed with" me (I'm not buying, I have no such memory). But you can see how nicely I fit the profile for why I am attracted to the same sex. Either way, in her paradigm same sex sex is a sin, though not the attraction itself...that's brokenness. And yes, it is one of my primary sticking points with her that how can she love me if she doesn't know me, she's certain she does know me.

The therapist isn't going to happen. I won't go to a "Christian" counselor and she won't go to one who doesn't support her beliefs. I suspect were both hoping the other will have an epiphany. 30 years is a lot to throw away, at least, quickly. Meanwhile, it is good to live being faithful to and honest with her. She deserves that, and she wants me, she deserves my effort at the very least.

[u-dog]

The therapist isn't going to happen. I won't go to a "Christian" counselor and she won't go to one who doesn't support her beliefs. I suspect were both hoping the other will have an epiphany. 30 years is a lot to throw away, at least, quickly. Meanwhile, it is good to live being faithful to and honest with her. She deserves that, and she wants me, she deserves my effort at the very least.

a Good therapist WILL support her beliefs. Might not share them, but will support them and help her to bring them to bear within the context of the therapeutic process. If you find a therapist who doesn't respect the religious beliefs of the client... run! because they are not a good therapist. Lots of times large mainline denomination churches (Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist) will have counseling centers that have ACTUAL liscenced therapists but are friendly to faith as an aspect of life. Lutheran Family Services can be a good place to start looking.


I wish I could send you to ours... he's a gay guy in a long term relationship who was married to a woman and grew up fundamentalist and is on very good terms with his family all of whom still are fundamentalist, but he is now an Episcopalopian. he would be perfect for you. But I'm thinkin the commute would be a killer.

[Zerbie]

I agree with U dog that a good therapist will be one without an agenda to make you come out, or to make you remain in the marriage if it seems the wrong thing to do. . . a good therapist will help walk both of you through the minefield that you're dealing with.

Just popping in to say that and to add that I've been following this conversation and while I don't have any wisdom to add to it (since I've never been in a comparable situation) I keep wanting to just post with some hugs and prayers for you. :love::pray: :love::pray:

[BrentRichards]

a Good therapist WILL support her beliefs. Might not share them, but will support them and help her to bring them to bear within the context of the therapeutic process. If you find a therapist who doesn't respect the religious beliefs of the client... run! because they are not a good therapist. Lots of times large mainline denomination churches (Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist) will have counseling centers that have ACTUAL liscenced therapists but are friendly to faith as an aspect of life. Lutheran Family Services can be a good place to start looking.


I wish I could send you to ours... he's a gay guy in a long term relationship who was married to a woman and grew up fundamentalist and is on very good terms with his family all of whom still are fundamentalist, but he is now an Episcopalopian. he would be perfect for you. But I'm thinkin the commute would be a killer.


Echo. In my time as a therapist (I'd like to think a "good" one) I had clients whose religious beliefs were ENTIRELY different than mine ... the example that comes to mind is a dear woman who was devotedly Wiccan ... which the people in the circles I then ran in would say was "evil" and would have sent them running for the hills. As a therapist, though, my job was to help her use all her resources (including her Wiccan faith and practices) to live a healthier life. On the flip side of the coin, I've been in therapy myself a few times, with both "Christian" counselors and "secular" ones ... one of the most helpful was a woman whose spirituality was primarily Native American in nature ... again, a big contrast, but she helped me use MY resources, not hers, to cope. It can be done.

[BrentRichards]

I did grow up in a very conservative Christian home vs. your liberal/moderater roots. Perhaps you are familiar with Vernon McGhee and John MacArthur? John baptized me as a teen and as a child we attended McGhees church. At 17 I got "baptized in the Holy Spirit" and swung over to Jack Hayfords church...so my roots are decidedly fundamental.

McGee, MacArthur and Hayford. Wow. Those guys would have called me a liberal at the most right-wing phase of my life. I'm glad you're still alive, friend! And that does put a lot in perspective, for me, anyway.

[wmanion]

Paul,
I can relate to you on many levels, although I am no longer married. I do know this...now that you have been honest with yourself the healing will begin. God is there and he has not forsaken you. I found that the truth does set you free. I got to the point that I was so deprssed and they just kept increasing the meds until I was existing but not functioning. I was even diagnosed as being bipolar. However, once I was honest with myself about my sexuality and more importantly honest with God about my sexuality, all symptoms of the bipolar disease disappeared. I had created a trap of my own making. I was prayed for, laid hands on, pleaded with God on a daily basis to change me but I didn't need changing. I wasn't broke and God in all his wisdom made me the way I am. God bless you on your journey.

Bill

[Emproph]

Just popping in to say that and to add that I've been following this conversation and while I don't have any wisdom to add to it (since I've never been in a comparable situation) I keep wanting to just post with some hugs and prayers for you. :love::pray: :love::pray:

There's just so much I want to add that's related to so many different things. It'll have to wait.

In the meanwhile, welcome to Soulforce Paul.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x269/Emproph/Welcome-18-june.gif

What you've expressed about not knowing the same God anymore is exactly the sentiments I experienced at the ex-gay survivors conference.

Also, were you thinking Soulforce might be too religious? It sounds like you said that at one point. I ask because I think that that may be something that keeps a lot of people away. The idea that because Soulforce is against faith based oppression, that it is also necessarily faith based.

It seems that this might keep both ends away, those who are not faith identified and those who are very, or particularly (denomination-wise) faith identified.

[paul]

Thank you again, each of you, for your kind and thought out responses.

u-dog (and the therapist contingent),

I really do understand the therapy sentiment and agree. I also realize that a "good therapist" will work with beliefs. When I first came out to my kids in December 06, I found a really good person to go to and went intensively for a short period. I agreee it's good for perspective. She helped me a great deal, affirmed that I wasn't completely nuts and had actually been able to figure some stuff out on my own (geeze, I hope so after 35 years of looking). Simply, my wife will not go to therapy with me. I know some (if not all) here understand that when a person "knows the truth" already, they see no need. Indeed, unless the therapist affirms that "truth" then they are wrong.

I think I need to fill in some more spaces here. I've made it clear to my wife that I'm gay and no longer expect that to change, add to that my deconversion and we have much of our foundation for relationship altered. My effort is to see if I can live as a gay man married to a woman, I call it a "grand experiment." As part of that "effort" I even stopped going to therapy because what the therapist was saying to me was angering my wife. Without going into detail, yes I know this smacks of control on her part. It isn't. I made the decision to quit therapy (for now), not her despite her pressure. The therapist was really providing some much needed affirmation, but no new info. Ultimately, I have to work through this and make my own decisions. I know how to find perspective (hey, I'm here, right?). So, therapy is not an option right now, saddly. It would be like her insisting I go to church with her, to reverse the idea.

Brent,
Glad you've heard of those guys. Yeah, my roots are very long and conservative. I'm glad it helps make some sense of this, it's impossible to relate the whole picture in a few paragraphs.

Zerbie,
thank you for caring.

Bill,

I'm sorry for your own rotten journey, the depression. It's funny about the truth. I've been honest with "God" for a long, long, time (I mean really, how can you be dishonest with God). The hardest part has been having no human companionship. I know most gays can relate to this on varying levels (i.e., the "closet"). It's not new or unique to me, but has been very real. I know, just logically, that that warped me in ways. I was willing to cheat and lie to maintain an illusion of acceptance from people, but never had that illusion with myself or "God." I figured I was missing something and that's why I was failing, and that any day I would see it and would no longer cheat and lie because I was "free." That day came when I did the opposite of what I thought "God" wanted for 35 years (I know I keep say "35 years," but the time is mind blowing to me. I thought I was being "faithful," and I was but to a false idea). It's when I "turned my back" on that idea of "God" that I experienced the magic of freedom. Amazing.

Emproph,
thanks for the colorful welcome...I am here because of your invite, we met at ex-gay watch. I am not closed to "God" (I think), but I am a skeptic. I've espoused many notions of God over the years and exhausted them in my own life. That doesn't mean there is no God, just that I haven't "known" God if God is. As mentioned to you, I have a hard time substantiating what informs most peoples ideas of God, as I did my own finally. But I am open, just haven't heard anything new yet. We'll see. If there is a God, God knows my heart.

[Steven E. Webster]

If there is a God, God knows my heart.

Paul,

This seems like a very adequate statement of faith to me. From my perspective, God is beyond any human knowing, and yet I feel an intimate relationship to this God who knows me.

Steven Webster

[wmanion]

Paul,
You are completely correct, you cannot be dishonest with God. I phrased that poorly. What I meant in being honest with God was that I finally stopped asking for a healing and a change that was unnecessary because there was nothing to heal or change. In his wisdom he knew that all along...I was the confused one.

Bill

[paul]

Bill,
I thought you were clear the first time, you did fine. I was just remembering outloud. I really believed God knew all, saw all and that belief helped me not lie to myself. I think I understand you.

Steven,

You think? I'm not sure what I have is faith in God anymore because I don't perceive anyone that I am directing that faith towards. I have nothing to inform such a faith. Really, if there is a God I am at God's mercy (that may seem a well duh statement). There's that big "if."

[megthenut]

it was good and hard to read your story. that was my dad's story. he remained married to my mother. for that i am thankful, but at the same time cannot imagined myself being married to a man as a lesbian. as a kid, it was hard for my dad not to be able to honest with me, even though i was quite uncomfortable with him telling me that bob costas was hot. i guess i'm just glad to know that there are others out there in the situation my dad was in, until he died of hepatitis b. all this to say, i guess, thanks for being honest. and, welcome.

[Daniel]

Hi Paul,

I've just read through this thread- I missed it somehow- and there is one thing about your story which leapt out at me. Perhaps I am reading too much between the lines, but the word shame kept coming to mind.

This can't be anything you don't know already, but I'd just like to suggest that shame over your past actions-however you see them- is a huge rock in the road. It's bound to keep tripping up any decisions you make in the future. I guess what I'm saying here is this: please don't minimize the force that internalized homophobia can play in your decisions.

Yes. You betrayed your wife. But you also betrayed your own nature. That's the part of the equation that I hope you don't leave out. My sense is that, even though your wife may have forgiven you, it's more important for you to forgive yourself.

Wishing you peace on your journey.

[wmanion]

Very well said Daniel, and it is so true. Many times the hardest person to forgive is ourselves, but once we get to that point....ecstasy!! And no, not the drug!

Bill

[paul]

megthenut,

Thanks for your sweet words and sharing a bit of yourself, I appreciate you perspective as a child of a gay parent. My sons are 26 and 28 years old and I didn't come out to them until this last December. Not that it makes any difference, but I have wondered whether they would have been better off knowing at a younger age. My wife begged me not to tell them, ever. Of course, her perspective is that my ssa is a result of brokenness and generational sin, etc. (which is the perspective I had up until a year and a half ago). So, in that context, it made sense to me not to tell them...sort of. I have wondered about that element of fundamental Christianity where there are "sins" that aren't talked about in polite circles or in front of the kiddies, seems a double standard. My own dad never spoke with me about anything except to tell me to mow the lawn. I remember as a teen trying to draw him out. In retrospect, he may have been gay. He would often take off by himself and had "friends" that none of us knew. His dad was attracted to men as well as some of his uncles. I told my kids because I wished my own dad had been open with me, no matter what. They haven't taken it that way, they feel like I've died and want nothing to do with me. They say we can start from square one and try to build a relationship, but I have to repent of being gay first...so. In their defense, I've had my whole life to get accustomed to my ssa. They have to deal with what I did by being unfaithful to their mom as well as the lying to cover who I was, so I think it's natural they would be angry and in shock. All this to say, I think your dad probably did you a favor by telling you at a young age, though he might have made mistakes in "how" he did it at times? You grew up knowing him, which I think beats a false image to maintain the status quo.


Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your input and for broaching the "s" subject:).

Gays who have been raised in a fundamental Christian background (as well as many others, I'm sure) can relate to shame at some level. I am not now ashamed of being gay, nor have I been for many years. Though it took me a long, long time to give up trying to change, I long ago realized that I didn't choose to be attracted to men. My shame is from what I did about it, and I think it's legit. I'm not sure that will ever go away, though it will probably soften in time. As I'm sure you can imagine, still being married to the person I harmed complicates it a bit, and I am still trying to figure out how much of my efforts to remain married are rooted in shame. Though she forgives me, it doesn't make it all better for her and we both live with the results of my actions. That's simply real.

What you may be hearing, partly, is I am angry and disappointed with myself that it took me so long to realize the farce that "God" was going to help me not be gay, or at least help me not act on it. That 'miracle' occurred when I deconverted from fundamental Christianity. Ironic, no? I am also exhausted and frayed from living alone and isolated all my life, with only occassional anonymous trysts to sooth the burn. I am currently experiencing some freedom because of self acceptance, and I do have the help of understanding now why I did what I did, it was my way of not being alone. I really think I come closer to forgiving myself than my wife or family does. I know first hand how hard I fought to not do the things I did, they don't since I was alone with my struggle. Yet another irony, they would have been better off if I had given up my struggle years ago. I don't think their forgiveness is based on the truth, so it's a little hollow. It's complicated living with someone who loves you but thinks you're broken. Sorry, I think I've gone on here.

[Zerbie]

(((( Paul ))))
:love:
You were trying to survive emotionally/psychologically. It makes me angry that the psychological trap that was laid for you (and so many thousands) was so complete that it left nothing but deadly options. That you tried so hard to stuff your feelings in order to be a good and moral person only shows how strongly "they" (here society, your church, and so on) turned your own goodness against you, twisting it.

I imagine the worst thing you are dealing with may be a sense of self-betrayal. Did I glean so correctly from your remarks about your anger for taking so long to discover there was nothing wrong with you? That's understandable. But look at it from this side, Paul: you believed what you were taught about homosexuality because of your trust. You had trust in those around you, in the church, in the Bible, and so on. Trust is a beautiful thing, but unfortunately they abused your trust.

All along you fought to do what was right and good. Because you were fed wrong information, those intentions could not come out clearly, and so the things you ended up doing were harmful. Even though the reasons behind them were right and good. You can regain your innocence by working through all the emotional and relational mess that their teaching and your struggling actions has left behind. Can take a long time, but as you've already begun to discover, it's infinitely worth it.

Give your children time. People grow with time.

What strikes me over and over about you from your posts so far is how you are brave, brave, brave to be jumping into this process. You're emotionally honest, which, given your background, is kind of amazing. Keep going. You will find tremendous inner freedom.

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[dsdrane]

Paul --

I was on vacation when you initially posted and am still reading through threads I missed when I was gone.

I have no profounder thoughts than those already offered by our fellow Soulforcers (yours included). What I do have is a desire to extend a hand of welcome and bestow a hearty and heartfelt congratulations both on your journey, in general, and your arrival and participation here, specifically.

Welcome, welcome, welcome!

:wave:,

David

[paul]

Zerbie,

My first response to what you wrote is tears, but then, I cry at Hallmark commercials also. Seriously, I'm blown away by your kindness. I think one of the biggest evils of fundamental Christianity is the inclination by many to value their interpretation of a few words written in a book over a real live person who has been a major part of their life.

Yes, you do read me correctly on the "self-betrayal" aspect. It's a perspective that I want to maintain. I don't think it would serve me or anyone else in my life for me to play the blame game. Not that I delude myself that others were not involved in my delusion, just that ultimately we all have volition and I chose my course. The reason I want to steer clear of blaming is because I agree with you, "trust is a beautiful thing." I really just want to learn, hopefully, to avoid rancor or regret. I think I can use my experience to strengthen in myself an attitude of not violating anothers trust or volition (does that make sense?). There is so much in life that we don't "know," yet for many reasons we act as though we do. That's at the root of so much abuse. If that's going to change in the world, I can at least change it in me.

Zerbie, I am aware that you do not know me. Thank you for being willing to think well of me anyway. The reason I am upfront about my very real failures is because I could easily paint a better, victim type picture of me. But, it is right for me to admit and take full responsibility for my failings. I have paid a dear price to learn that being real is better than being accepted. To have both is amazing. Thank you for understanding why I failed, and more, that I tried very hard not to. That means more than I can express.

[BrentRichards]

When I was studying counseling, my professor/advisor/mentor was a psychologist who had done a lot of work on the concept of guilt and shame, from both psychological and theological perspectives. He contrasted the two in a way I've found profoundly helpful. Maybe it's relevant here:

Guilt is about what I do. Shame is about who I am.
Guilt says "I failed." Shame says "I'm a failure."
Guilt says "I made a mistake." Shame says "I am a mistake."
Guilt says "I did a bad thing." Shame says "I am a bad person."
Guilt says "I did something wrong." Shame says "There's something wrong with me."

The reason he drew these differences is that there is something we can DO about guilt ... we can make different choices in the future, make restitutions where possible, and so on. But if we buy the messages of shame, we are in trouble, because they begin to define our whole identity, and color our way of looking at our current failures, short-comings, and even successes ("Yeah, I succeeded this time, but I'm still just a failure."). Teaching ourselves to separate these two messages can be critical.

Just a thought ... maybe useful, maybe not.

[paul]

David,
thanks for the welcome, it's good to be here...hope you had a great vacation.

Brent,
That's good, thanks. It is good to differentiate between shame and guilt and that does it nicely. By those definitions, I am very familiar with shame...I carried it for my whole life till about a year and a half ago when I declared myself done, though it seems nuts to me that it took me 35 years to convince myself I had really tried hard enough to change. Here's the cool thing, the guilt that fed my shame was interupted (for lack of better words) at that point. I am no longer doing stuff to be guilty of and can now hold my head up without the shame of constant defeat.

[Jennifer5]

Paul very happy to have you here! You sound like an incredible person with an incredible story!



Personally, I see what you're saying, but here how I look at it....

You say that your wife is the victim because you cheated on here, which just that alone, I think is true. But you have to remind yourself that that part has nothing to do with being gay. If your family can't understand, personally I would suggest, just continue to say that you're sorry you didn't tell them and that without them, you don't know what you would do with your life (but only if that's how you feel...). Let them you that you love them and you want to make things work... Dave (U-dog) is living proof that if you both WANT the relationship to work, but it's not always the best choice.

You're loved Paul!

(or to put it out there in a way that people really need to hear it)

:love: :love: :love: I LOVE YOU! :love: :love: :love:
(((((hugs)))))

[lehighgardener]

Paul,

From what I’ve read, we have a tremendous amount in common, esp in our current situations. I too grew up fundevangelist home and church. I was out and active while in college, then got “re-saved” and have been in the closet ever since. I felt that God showed me who was to be my wife and we got married nearly 22 years ago. She knew about my “past” going in, but we both thought the marriage would bring healing to me. It has been a tough marriage, but not a total disaster. We have a wonderful 13yo son, who is a joy to both of us.

In the past two years I’ve gotten increasingly in touch with my “gay self”. Until then I had believed that to be Christian and (actively) gay were mutually exclusive. Since then I have talked to dozens of men and women who blow that out of the water. I’ve been blessed with many friends in the local MCC and in other churches. I’ve made some gay friends at work and have mixed a bit in the local gay community. I’ve attended the gay and married men’s group a couple times. I’ve read many books, mostly autobiographies that have been helpful.

I’m still married and trying to keep an open dialog with my wife. I big part of me wants to just move out now and divorce later. I can’t do that right now, mostly because of my son. I’m not out to him, but hope to change that over the next few years. I don’t want to mess up his childhood and adolescence with a Mom and Dad separated or divorced. We’re still in a conservative, charismatic church that is trying to be supportive of my quest, but draws the line at sexual activity.

Like so many men I’ve talked to, I do LOVE my wife, but I’ve never been IN LOVE with her. You know what I mean - not Hollywood-style IN LOVE, but a deep, abiding love. It’s just not there, never has been and likely never could be. For some reason, I’m hardwired to have my intimate emotional needs met by a man, and probably no woman could really satisfy this. Those same men (above) said that they never really knew what love WAS until they knew love with another man. I don’t know about you, but I think I can relate to this.

I strive to be honest and open with her about what I’m doing, where I’m going and who I’m with. I keep telling her it is my intention to remain faithful to her and not deceive her. She does have some degree of trust in me, but has “released me in the name of Jesus”, meaning she isn’t going to try to stop me, but I need to watch my step. This allows me to meet and get to know other gay men, forming a support group and a comfortable social group. I sometimes do consider remaining in this “netherworld” and staying faithfully married, but identifying myself as gay, as I know some have. I just don’t think I can find that fulfilling in the long term.

Deciding whether and when to leave is not easy and many factors must be considered. At least your sons are older and you are out to them. If they know you love them no matter what, they will eventually come around. Separation and divorce is never easy, or so I’m told. I simply can’t see myself growing old with my wife and spending whatever years we have left together. Like your wife, mine doesn’t want me to leave her. She thinks it’s just a mid-life crisis and/or spiritual crisis that will pass. I know better. But the time is just not right. My wife is not a professional and would have a hard time supporting herself. I need to take that into consideration because I don’t want to just dump her in the cruel, hard world to make it on her own.

I hope you find this helpful and I’d be glad to discuss it more.

[paul]

Hi lehighgardner,

When I saw "Hi my name is Paul" in the "Hello" thread I thought, "Hey look, another Paul." Then I realized someone else was responding to me. Cool.
I notice you haven't made many posts since joining soulforce, I hope you stick around so I can get to know you.

Much of what you say sounds familiar to me, it seems we do have much in common. I welcome your friendship. Living in a closet makes one alone. Those who were my friends didn't really "know" me, so it was hard to qualify as friends, in any complete sense. I found out who my true friends were when I came out. Oops, pretty much had to make all new ones since my friends were fundamentalist...all except one, he remains a wonderful friend. But the choice to live in a closet is an isolating choice, and unhealthy I think. Being alone, with limited feed back warps, well, it did me.

Re coming out to my kids, I do wonder if it wouldn't have been easier for them as kids. Lots of pros and cons to think about. I also understand about your wife being dependent. We homeschooled both our boys K-12, so she was at home for that and has only worked out of the home maybe 2 years in 30 since we married. I also understand the different types of "love." Part of accepting myself has resulted in an acceptance of that side of myself...i.e., it's no longer "sin" to fall in love, but it isn't "okay" since I am married...if that makes any sense. I think my wife fears this more than the physical aspect, she doesn't really want me making gay friends considering that at cross purposes. Am currently looking for a couselor, were going to have to work that out.

Thanks for sharing, I look forward to knowing you.
paul

[tdogg]

I was with my ex husband for over 17 years. We were great as friends, but horrible as partners. I've never really been 'in love' with any of the men I've been with. All along, inside, I knew it was women for me but because of my upbringing (yup, another victim of religious fundamental Pentecostal child-rearing), family and church expectations, it took YEARS for me to finally accept being a lesbian, and a little bit longer to love myself for it (and in spite of it).

Once I came out to myself and accepted myself, the feeling of freedom was amazing. I had already left my husband, so that wasn't an issue, although we were still friends and the news I was seeing someone else was the bad news for him. I have a handful of family/friends who claim to be devastated and choose to avoid acknowledgement of my being gay (or my partner), but for the most part I am well supported and loved. It was so worth it, and now I'm a happy, very out lesbian in a wonderful relationship. I could not have it any other way. I finally found what real love between two people really is.

Paul, I'm so glad you found your way here. Welcome and many blessings to you on your journey! I think some alone time and meditation might help to clear the mind and really think things over. You may be happy settling, but then again you may not. It's not a decision anyone else can make for you (including your wife). But don't forget to consider YOUR wants, needs, yourself when thinking this all over.

[lehighgardener]

Paul,

I did have some posts early this year – a “Hi my name is Steve” and another one about the idea of writing a book for gay married men tentatively called “Married Man Comes Out!”. I’ve looked at quite a few GLBT books and have not found any that addresses our situation. There must be 1000s of us out there in the Baby Boom generation who realized we were gay, but felt that marrying was what was needed to cure us.

What you say about “friends not really knowing you” rings so true. I’m slowly coming out to some friends at work and at church, but I’m still not really “out” in life. Being in the closet leads to a double life that I think is very emotionally unhealthy. You can’t be completely honest for fear of rejection. I only have one long-time best friend and he’s trying to come to terms with my newfound gayness or more likely convince me that I can’t follow thru with it. But he is trying to understand my position and he’s known about my past forever, well 26 years.

Loneliness can lead to despairing, as you surely know. I’m sure it is a factor in my depression. I’m very thankful for the friends I have made and the support they give me. I refer to them as my lifeline, even the email relationships across the country. I keep hoping that this will really be worth it when I finally make my move, whenever that is. Without the hope of knowing a deep, spiritual love with another man, I consider all this in vain.

Steve

[Zerbie]

Paul and Steve,

To each of you, many blessings as you struggle with your process and your "next steps." May much courage and insight be yours.

I pray for each of you and your wives, families.

Love, Zerbie

:pray::pray:

[Jennifer5]

lehighgardener, I don't really know your situation, but I do know that speaking for myself and many of my friends... that thing where parents stay together because they're concerned about how it will affect the kids, is backwards. Kids are happier when parents are forth-coming with them. They are NOT happy when the parents DON'T have a good relationship. The things you hear about "stay together for the kids" is backwards. Kids would rather have two happy parents who are really there for them, or even one parent, then have two parents who are so caught up in other things that they can't really be there for them.

Just how I feel... and all my friends actually... but just putting it out there for you to consider. :love:

[u-dog]

lehighgardener, I don't really know your situation, but I do know that speaking for myself and many of my friends... that thing where parents stay together because they're concerned about how it will affect the kids, is backwards. Kids are happier when parents are forth-coming with them. They are NOT happy when the parents DON'T have a good relationship. The things you hear about "stay together for the kids" is backwards. Kids would rather have two happy parents who are really there for them, or even one parent, then have two parents who are so caught up in other things that they can't really be there for them.

Just how I feel... and all my friends actually... but just putting it out there for you to consider. :love:

Well, I came from a home where the parents loved each other and stayed together and I provided a home where the parents (in spite of the difficulties) loved each other and stayed together, but my sense from my work as pastor and from being the spouse of a Marriage and family therapist is that children mostly prefer it when Mom and Dad work together for the benefit of the kids. That can mean either staying together or divorcing and cooperating. What is devastating to kids is parents who are in conflict, don't put kids needs FIRST, and use kids as weapons against each other.

Just how I feel... putting it out there too... :love::)

[paul]

Ya know, I need to dig this tread up when I'm feeling blue, it's really nice to have caring, thinking people in my life.


tdogg,

I'm glad you found resolution to your situation. Right now it's just nice accepting myself without the condemnation from me. Condemnation from others is a walk in the park compared to self condemnation, no? One of the biggest problems I face right now is that I love my wife and don't want to hurt her. I don't want either of us to be martyrs, love isn't martyrdom, but it can be freely giving up our life for another. I have to see what is the "right" thing. Tough. Am looking for a counselor right now for us to both go to. I know we need an objective referee right now. More news at 11:00.

Zerbie,

Thanks. :love:

Steve,

There probably are "1000's of us out there." I guess that's good and bad. If we do end up sans wife, maybe we won't end up alone. I don't have any delusions about that, starting over is a scary thought mixed in with the exhileration of being free to be who I am. No one knows how that will end up. I do know it's best to live honest, even if not fulfilled. I think much of "lonliness" for me was simply because no one knew who I was, I was hidden away. Now I find I am alone after coming out, but not so much lonely, if that makes any sense.

paul

[u-dog]

Ya know, I need to dig this tread up when I'm feeling blue, it's really nice to have caring, thinking people in my life.


tdogg,

I'm glad you found resolution to your situation. Right now it's just nice accepting myself without the condemnation from me. Condemnation from others is a walk in the park compared to self condemnation, no? One of the biggest problems I face right now is that I love my wife and don't want to hurt her. I don't want either of us to be martyrs, love isn't martyrdom, but it can be freely giving up our life for another. I have to see what is the "right" thing. Tough. Am looking for a counselor right now for us to both go to. I know we need an objective referee right now. More news at 11:00.

Zerbie,

Thanks. :love:

Steve,

There probably are "1000's of us out there." I guess that's good and bad. If we do end up sans wife, maybe we won't end up alone. I don't have any delusions about that, starting over is a scary thought mixed in with the exhileration of being free to be who I am. No one knows how that will end up. I do know it's best to live honest, even if not fulfilled. I think much of "lonliness" for me was simply because no one knew who I was, I was hidden away. Now I find I am alone after coming out, but not so much lonely, if that makes any sense.

paul


Paul, You and I are on the same page in many ways. For me, the need to come out (to God, to myself, to Polly, to the boys) had WAY more to do with the need to be authentic and to be known for who I am than it had to do with the need to have sex (or even a relationship) with another man. Not that those are not real issues for me... its just that they weren't the DRIVING issues for me. Other men have a different experience and I totally respect that, but for me the issue was the need forr authenticity and to stop hiding. The journey is just beginning for me and I have no clue where it will lead, but I am enjoying the trip fully for perhaps the first time in my life! Not only am I free of depression I am actually HAPPY (sometimes even Euphoric) Happiness is good. I should have tried it earlier!

The distinction between being "alone" and being "lonely" makes total sense to me. I've done both. Being alone is delightful (I'm an introvert) being lonely totally SUCKS!

[d_pedr]

Paul

Welcome to soulforce.

A lot has already been said, so I don't know if this will add more.

I was married for nearly ten years, and my wife did know that I was bi before the marriage and sometimes we'd both see a good looking man, and both make some possitive comment.

Like you I found it easier in this sort of openness of relation to stay away from the gay sites and magazines, than I had in previous 'normal' (as I had been taught then) relationships, where my girlfriend didn't know about my ssa.

Unfortunately, she wasn't as honest with me, and although I had stayed faithful, she had several relationships outside the marriage, sometimes confessing them afterwards. Eventually, she chose to be with one of them, and asked for a divorce. The children (5 and 8 at the time) stayed with me.

I support you and your wife, whatever you decide is the way forward together. Paul, in his letters, talks about staying with non-believing spouses, but letting them go if they wish to. I see this in the same light, if you both want to stay together, and agree with each other on how the openness of that situation is going to work, then that's good for your relationship.

From what I understand of your beliefs, I think that continuing to read the Bible, both separately and together, will help you to let God lead the way.

God stay close to you and your family.

Love and Hugs

[tdogg]

Right now it's just nice accepting myself without the condemnation from me. Condemnation from others is a walk in the park compared to self condemnation, no?


Paul, you are so right about this statement my friend. Each of us has different experiences and different emotions, even while it seems we might be going through the 'same situation.' We are all different (and so blessed by our diversity!). I wish you well on your journey. That reminds me, I found a great saying today...

"Every thing happens for a reason. Just be patient and in time, those reasons will be answered for you. Sometimes, the big question is (Why, is this happening to me)? The answer to that question is, every day that we wake up, we are gaining incredible knowledge, experience and wisdom. Cherish these moments, hold them close to your heart, for these are the Lessons of Life."
Nancy Olivia Thomas

Thought it was cool and fitting for your journey. No hurry on the destination, enjoy the adventure along the way. Blessings Paul!

Tdogg

[Jennifer5]

What is devastating to kids is parents who are in conflict, don't put kids needs FIRST, and use kids as weapons against each other.
I think that the one sentence pretty much put into words what I was trying to say. I think you're better off to have one parent who really cares about you, then to have two that are so caught up dealing with the problems in the marriage or whatever that the kids needs no longer come first. I think my wording is just coming from the more 'personal experience' level.



"Every thing happens for a reason. Just be patient and in time, those reasons will be answered for you. Sometimes, the big question is (Why, is this happening to me)? The answer to that question is, every day that we wake up, we are gaining incredible knowledge, experience and wisdom. Cherish these moments, hold them close to your heart, for these are the Lessons of Life."
Nancy Olivia Thomas

Love it! .....everytime someone pushes certain issues on me, "this must bother you", "this bother you", "doesn't it make you sick that he did that to you..." and all these other things.... and my answer is always, I'm not hurt, I'm not upset and I think we all go through pain for a reason, "Every thing happens for a reason....."