How can I work for justice in the Culture War?

[KennethJ]

Hello Folks.

I have recently responded to Karen Keen's analysis of Mel & Nancy Wilson's workshop on the Bible & Homosexuality at the Ex-Gay Survivor Conference. The critique is presented here http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/survivor-conference/

I found that Karen's analysis was biased, even though she did it in a very outwardly "polite" way. And so I made a comment on her blog. Now i see that the folks at "GCM Watch" have used her analysis to completely demonize Mel and make all kinds of unjust claims about GLBT Christians. It is such a misrepresentation that I would venture to call it "fundamentalist pornography".

Being from Canada, I've heard a lot about the American Culture War... and I've kind of been this outside observer... because the political culture here in Canada is just so different. But since the Ex-Gay Survivor's Conference, I feel this call to participate in justice-making south of the border. And I know that's because my own religious roots are conservative Christian, so I feel this bond with so many of you all.

Do you think it is wise to engage in blogging with conservative groups? Or are they just trying to bait us and make us angry? And that's another question... don't you get angry at these groups? I mean.. I am furious because I have never before experienced such blatant misrepresenations of GLBT people. I'd love to hear about your thoughts on this, along with any suggestions you might have for me.

[antonyh]

Hello Folks.

I have recently responded to Karen Keen's analysis of Mel & Nancy Wilson's workshop on the Bible & Homosexuality at the Ex-Gay Survivor Conference. The critique is presented here http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/survivor-conference/

I found that Karen's analysis was completely biased, even though she did it in a very outwardly "polite" way. And so I made a comment on her blog. Now i see that the folks at "GCM Watch" have used her analysis to completely demonize Mel and make all kinds of unjust claims about GLBT Christians. It is such a misrepresentation that I would venture to call it "fundamentalist pornography".

Being from Canada, I've heard a lot about the American Culture War... and I've kind of been this outside observer... because the political culture here in Canada is just so different. But since the Ex-Gay Survivor's Conference, I feel this call to participate in justice-making south of the border. And I know that's because my own religious roots are conservative Christian, so I feel this bond with so many of you all.

Do you think it is wise to engage in blogging with conservative groups? Or are they just trying to bait us and make us angry? And that's another question... don't you get angry at these groups? I mean.. I am furious because I have never before experienced such blatant misrepresenations of GLBT people. I'd love to hear about your thoughts on this, along with any suggestions you might have for me.

These groups do more than talk. They meet us with their presence and their votes at the intersection of every attempted LGBT political advance in this country. I've met them in Lafayette, IN attempting to overthrow the Human Relations Ordinance...at the Illinois State House trying to stop Civil Unions...at petition drives trying to amend the Illinois Constitution to ban gay marriage...and now with the Hate Crimes Bill.

There is only one solution to the Culture War. We need to drive a wedge between people of genuine faith and the culture war organizations (American Family Association, Focus on the Family...). Evangelicals need to return to authentic faith and to see the lies and manipulations of these organizations, how they are disgracing the name of Jesus Christ they bear. Evangelicals need to turn their backs on the disgrace of the culture war machine. When these organizations are starved of constituents and money, then and only then will the culture war end.

[kara speltz]

Dear Ken: I read your post and it was right on target. Yes, it is easy to get angry at the way people continually misinterpret. That's why Soulforce is so important to me. We live in a culture of violence and my first response is usually one of violence of the tongue, unfortunately. But after years or studying and practicing nonviolence, I'm a little less apt to respond that way (but unfortunately not always). :unhappy:

One of the things I try to remember when dealing with people like Karen, who hear what they want to hear, is to remind myself that when I hear an arguement that I can't support or agree with, I also have a tendency not to remember what was said and remember only the parts tha resonate with me.

It was great to meet you at the conference and have you join us in our forums. kara

[pnggrad79]

Ken,
Good luck in your pursuit. I have often said on this forum and others, that Canada has a lot on the US simply because of their willingness to embrace gays and lesbians. The US could learn a whole lot about the freedom they supposedly grant each citizen and then their neighbor to the north puts it into practice. I find it odd that we make our school children say the pledge of allegiance everyday to the American flag and we say it as if it were true,"...with liberty and justice for all."

Meanwhile the Religious Right pours money into the Congress and they pass laws that restrict us from equal marriage, non-discrimination in jobs, protection against hate crimes, etc.

If it were equal and we took the First Amendment seriously, the Religious Right would have no influence over the laws of this country because of the Establishment Clause.

Nonetheless, if you want to be involved, Soulforce is good place to start.
Thanks for all you do.

[Karen Keen]

Ken, I noticed your comment on my blog and did respond to it. I have to say I was surprised at how negative you responded. Other Survivor Conference/ ex-ex gay folks did not find my post as negative as you did, and in fact at least one person thought it was a "gracious" assessment. I feel like you read my post with your own preconceived biases.

I did see the Gay Christian Watch post you referred to, and I regret that they used my post in that way. I posted a comment on that thread to that effect. I have no desire to fuel negative attitudes toward other people. I went to the Survivor Conference to experience it for myself, precisely because I don't like relying on sensationalistic reports about events, and I think actually talking to people, in-person, distills our tendency to demonize each other.

Perhaps it did not come across very clearly in my post--but my statements about Mel were not meant to be a negative reflection on him. I completely understand why he doesn't want to engage in the biblical discussion. He has been mistreated by fundamentalists. And, having grown up in fundamentalism, I know what it is like talking to arrogant Bible thumpers who don't care what you have to say. So I can understand where he is coming from. I too avoid discussing the Bible with certain people because there is no use.

Additionally, I felt my description on the eunuch was accurate. I took careful notes. We are all different people with different interpretations of events. Perhaps you learned different things at the workshop, and I would be interested in what those things are. I really am not sure still what exactly you found erroneous about my description. Naturally, I didn't cover every single point, but it seems to be that in a nutshell Mel talked about not spending the energy engaging in debate with those who don't want to sincerely dialogue. And, Nancy talked about eunuchs. Was there something else that you learned from the workshop that you would like to share?

Oddly enough, I find myself, at your hands, experiencing the same misrepresentation by you, that you accuse me of . . .

[u-dog]

Karen,

Welcome to the Soulforce forum. I am not a moderator (thank goodness!) but as an active member here let me ask you to please make sure that you have read the guidelines about posting on these forums. This is not just a place to argue opinions. these forums are a refuge for glbt people to connect. as such posts that villify gay people, characterize SSA as immoral, or promote the ex-gay agenda are not permitted. Our moderators are very strict on these points.

Seeing that you are active in the "ex-gay" endeavor I just want you to be clear about what is acceptible here.

Dave

[BrentRichards]

Maybe it's just me. I didn't find Karen's blog offensive, though I can obviously see that we don't hold identical beliefs, and the differing perspective naturally means differing "take homes" from a presentation like the one you reference. And I'll add my welcome Karen. I guess I am an "ex-ex-gay" myself, though I never liked to use the term "ex-gay" ... it was not descriptive of my experience. Let me encourage you to continue your love and concern for gay people, and your apparent willingness to dialogue, and I am confident that God will lead us all where He needs us to be.

I will be quite honest, it was that same concern for the lives of gay people I knew and loved, and that same heartache you describe, that ultimately made me rethink my place in the ex-gay movement, and my own understanding of Scripture. I knew full well that my position, rejecting my own sexuality and that of others, meant I would never have a voice among the people I most cared about ... I could force myself to be alone for life (I still am, for now) but I could not conscience being a part of the larger voice that has been (intentionally or unintentionally, but indisputably) a loud "go away" to my GLBT brothers and sisters.

[KennethJ]

Karen,

It seems we frequent the same message boards.

I have tried to explain that it is not that I find your recollection of the workshop technically inaccurate... it is that I find it selective and out of context. And there were a couple of quotes in particular that I just knew others in the ex-gay movement would distort and latch onto. And sure enough this happened almost immediately by people in the ex-gay camp that aren't as englightened as you.

I will be honest that, now that I know more about you as a person, I wish i had responded in a different manner. I feel very badly if you took it as a personal attack. And now that I think of it, I realize that the reason I acted so forcefully is because I really didn't think an ex-gay leader would care or give any creedance to what I was saying otherwise. You have shown me otherwise, and for this, I apologize.

I'm not sure if you have received it, but I sent you a personal email. Feel free to respond if you wish to dialogue further, outside of the public realm.

[Karen Keen]

Thanks Ken. I appreciate what you said. Its so easy to misunderstand each other on an issue that touches us on such a deep and personal level. I find it very difficult to know how to talk about it without offending someone. How do we treat each other with respect and yet allow room for disagreement and different worldviews? On some level I am hopeful about the civilized conversations I've had with ex-ex gays that seemingly bridge the divide. On the other hand, I think that the views we hold are so precious to each side that it creates an inevitable tension. Soulforce exists to fight for the civil rights of GLBT people. And, I am unfortunately, in some way a hinderance to that by virtue of being ex-gay (though I personally am not politically involved on this issue). In the end, I wonder how much dialogue the sides can really have--because what we both want is to persuade the other to see things from our own worldview. A dialogue presumes that compromise of some sort is possible, and I don't know what kind of compromise either side can really make without laying aside our deepest values and integrity. This is the "break-up" that I described in my blog post that makes me sad--where we ultimately, at a certain point, have to part ways.

[Zerbie]

How do we treat each other with respect and yet allow room for disagreement and different worldviews?


Soulforce exists to fight for the civil rights of GLBT people. And, I am unfortunately, in some way a hinderance to that by virtue of being ex-gay (though I personally am not politically involved on this issue).

In the end, I wonder how much dialogue the sides can really have--because what we both want is to persuade the other to see things from our own worldview. A dialogue presumes that compromise of some sort is possible, and I don't know what kind of compromise either side can really make without laying aside our deepest values and integrity. This is the "break-up" that I described in my blog post that makes me sad--where we ultimately, at a certain point, have to part ways.

Hi Karen,

We can allow for disagreement and still maintain respect by avoiding the (easy to fall into) trap of assuming that other questioning people need to make the same decisions and choices that we have made.

What works for us does not necessarily work for the guy or girl next door. For one, coming out means deepening a connection to self and God, while for another, it may mean, either temporarily or life-long, losing those connections. Those who choose not to live authentic to a gay orientation need to avoid proselytizing to those who DO, that they should change. If you (generic you, not Karen) choose to live a celibate life, or to marry someone of the opposite sex to whom you are not attracted, and you are able to maintain that commitment and retain your sense of self and authenticity, then that may be the right choice for you. It does NOT make a right choice for anyone else. Those of us in the LGBT-movement need to (and those I know well, already do) allow for an understanding that not everyone with a gay orientation is going to be psychologically able to come out, or want to. It is not our job to go to someone and demand that they come out, nor is it yours to demand some go back into a closet of forced "ex-gaydom." ESPECIALLY given its track record of failure along with severe psychological and even physical damage to SO MANY of those who have tried.

You say you are a hindrance to LGBT civil rights and that this is unfortunate. I take it therefore that you support things like employment non-discrimination bills, hate crimes protections, marriage equality, and so on?

Karen. You do not have to be a hindrance to gay peoples' civil rights just because your sexual orientation changed. (Quick question: did it change? Or are you celibate? Or some other situation?) Anyway, just because you may experience fluctuations in who you've been attracted to, or may have decided to wall off your interest in women for whatever reasons that are precious to you, does not make you a hindrance to anyone's civil rights unless you make a hindrance of yourself.

If you make yourself into a public figure promoting "change" for others, and you lend your support to organizations that say "Hey, since homosexuals can change - look at Karen - they don't need civil rights," then you have done so. Just living your private life privately in a way that is authentic to you does NOT do so. That is how we can maintain a "compromise" position: we respect the deep reasons for your decision, and you respect ours - that means not persuading, guilting, scaring, or pressuring others to make the SAME decision.

[KennethJ]

Karen, your message rings with a truth. When I first responded to your blog, I only knew that you were an ex-gay leader. And i had all these assocations connected with that, based on my own experiences. I think that, a lot of times, we ex-ex-gays feel like we need to shout if we want to be heard. And now I realize that you are this thoughtful, compassionate, good human being who is totally open to real dialogue.
What can I say? I am humbled, and honestly embarassed that i stereotyped you and didn't adhere to my own values in making initial contact with you.

[u-dog]

Can I break in here to just say:

Way to play nice kids! Good work!

Thanks.

Now, Karen, since you're here and since you are playing nice with us... would you explain what being "ex-gay" means TO YOU? it would help me a lot to hear this from someone who feels like being ex-gay is a good things.

STEVE! I AM AWARE THAT SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO ADVOCATE FOR EX_GAYness BUT I don't think this really counts ... does it? If she is talking about her own experience?

Do you mean that you no longer feel emotional and erotic attractions to women? Do women no longer catch your eye? and that you now are lusting after hunky young guys and flip right to the men's underwear section when the Penney's catalogue arrives or

Do you mean that you no longer feel any attraction to anyone? or

Do you mean that you feel all the old attractions but have decided that you CAN and WANT TO live celibately?

what does "ex-gay" mean in the context of your life?

Dave (u-dog)

[Karen Keen]

Hi Dave,

Good questions about what it means for me to be ex-gay. I am willing to share--though I don't want to violate any of the discussion board policy. Since you asked, I'll give it a shot . . .

I don't typically refer to myself as "ex-gay"-- its not a label I define myself by. I think I resort to it because its the common word that is used and I don't know what else to call "it". In the documentary, God and Gays, the best I could come up with was "same-sex attracted; non-practicing"-- but that is so cumbersome. And, really I don't like labels at all.

Having said that, what it means for me (and it means different things for different people) is that I no longer choose to be in lesbian relationships. I am still attracted to women. So I would not say I have "changed" from gay to straight. The whole question of change and sexual complexity really requires more discussion. My next blog post will discuss that (I'm still trying to figure out how to word it!) and so that might clarify in more detail what I think about the issue of change etc.

At any rate, when I talk about this issue, I don't talk about change. I talk about how I love God more than anything else in the Universe. I didn't stop getting involved in relationships because of peer or family pressure or religious legalism or because I felt like God would send me to hell. I stopped because I felt God's Spirit speaking to me to not be in relationships with women. And even though I may not understand all the whys of that, I trust God because I know he loves me passionately and has my best interest at heart.

The most important thing in my life is to follow Jesus the best way I know how and with the most honesty I know how. And as much as I would like accept homosexuality for myself and others, I simply cannot go against my conscience and what I believe God is speaking to my heart on that issue.

[Zerbie]

I love God more than anything else in the Universe.

Me too.

The most important thing in my life is to follow Jesus the best way I know how and with the most honesty I know how. And as much as I would like accept homosexuality for myself and others, I simply cannot go against my conscience and what I believe God is speaking to my heart on that issue.

For many people, Christian and non, this same devotion has led them to come out, and/or as straight people, to work tirelessly on behalf of justice for their gay neighbors.

It took me years to discover that people who denied to live in accordance with their sexuality could be having a spiritual connection with God by doing so, but I've finally recognized that for them, it can be quite real. What matters is the internal sense of connection between self and God. If someone has that, we ought not try to push something different on to them. Maybe some day we will find out why some of are getting such different-sounding answers from God. But that's not for now. For now, we are tasked with somehow getting along. Let's focus on that.

[keltic63]

Hi Dave,

Good questions about what it means for me to be ex-gay. I am willing to share--though I don't want to violate any of the discussion board policy. Since you asked, I'll give it a shot . . .

I don't typically refer to myself as "ex-gay"-- its not a label I define myself by. I think I resort to it because its the common word that is used and I don't know what else to call "it". In the documentary, God and Gays, the best I could come up with was "same-sex attracted; non-practicing"-- but that is so cumbersome. And, really I don't like labels at all.

Having said that, what it means for me (and it means different things for different people) is that I no longer choose to be in lesbian relationships. I am still attracted to women. So I would not say I have "changed" from gay to straight. The whole question of change and sexual complexity really requires more discussion. My next blog post will discuss that (I'm still trying to figure out how to word it!) and so that might clarify in more detail what I think about the issue of change etc.

At any rate, when I talk about this issue, I don't talk about change. I talk about how I love God more than anything else in the Universe. I didn't stop getting involved in relationships because of peer or family pressure or religious legalism or because I felt like God would send me to hell. I stopped because I felt God's Spirit speaking to me to not be in relationships with women. And even though I may not understand all the whys of that, I trust God because I know he loves me passionately and has my best interest at heart.

The most important thing in my life is to follow Jesus the best way I know how and with the most honesty I know how. And as much as I would like accept homosexuality for myself and others, I simply cannot go against my conscience and what I believe God is speaking to my heart on that issue.

I was with you until this sentence! why do you feel it necessary to yoke others with your own calling?

[u-dog]

Karen,

Thanks for your answer. It was a good, clear, and honest one. Listening to God and shaping your life around what you believe is paramount to an authentic life. It makes me sad to think of you living a life outside of a loving and intimate relationship but I won't try to convince you that you are wrong. As a Presbyterian and a self-avowed Calvinist I don't believe that God calls people to life long celibacy but only to seasons of celibacy... but what do I know! Blessings on your journey.

[Karen Keen]

Keltic63,

You are right to call me on what you did! If I were you I would have been thinking the same thing.

I want to respond to that, but I am not sure I will make much sense. Part of the issue is how our "meta-narratives" play out.

In the land of my meta-narrative I hold to the belief that God tells us to do things for our own good, and that if I were to accept homosexuality for anyone, I would actually be cruel and inhumane to you.

This probably sounds very odd to you, but by holding to the belief, not only for myself, but others as well, it is like me warning a person who is driving a car that the bridge is out up ahead. If I didn't say something, and the person drove off the bridge--what kind of person would I be? I would be like the callous priest who walked by the injured man instead of helping him. For me to say what I believe abut homosexuality is for me being the Good Samaritan.

I know that all probably sounds pretty crazy and backward to you since you have a very different understanding of the issues--but its actually, honestly what I believe. The Scriptures talk about how the ways of God lead to joy, health, peace and life. And so for me, holding the belief I do is about promoting that joy, health, life and peace for other people.

I know its a stretch, but if you try to look at it from the angle I am (just for a second), you might (from a cross-cultural standpoint) grasp why I feel so deeply as I do. Because I actually think that I am helping people (not in the sense of an ex-gay ministry and change, but helping in the sense of helping people know God more intimately and enjoy all He has for us).

[BrentRichards]

Hi Dave,

Good questions about what it means for me to be ex-gay. I am willing to share--though I don't want to violate any of the discussion board policy. Since you asked, I'll give it a shot . . .

I don't typically refer to myself as "ex-gay"-- its not a label I define myself by. I think I resort to it because its the common word that is used and I don't know what else to call "it". In the documentary, God and Gays, the best I could come up with was "same-sex attracted; non-practicing"-- but that is so cumbersome. And, really I don't like labels at all.

Having said that, what it means for me (and it means different things for different people) is that I no longer choose to be in lesbian relationships. I am still attracted to women. So I would not say I have "changed" from gay to straight. The whole question of change and sexual complexity really requires more discussion. My next blog post will discuss that (I'm still trying to figure out how to word it!) and so that might clarify in more detail what I think about the issue of change etc.

At any rate, when I talk about this issue, I don't talk about change. I talk about how I love God more than anything else in the Universe. I didn't stop getting involved in relationships because of peer or family pressure or religious legalism or because I felt like God would send me to hell. I stopped because I felt God's Spirit speaking to me to not be in relationships with women. And even though I may not understand all the whys of that, I trust God because I know he loves me passionately and has my best interest at heart.

The most important thing in my life is to follow Jesus the best way I know how and with the most honesty I know how. And as much as I would like accept homosexuality for myself and others, I simply cannot go against my conscience and what I believe God is speaking to my heart on that issue.

I hear you here 100% ... I was in the same boat, so to speak. Ex-gay was the only term going, but it didn't describe my experience either (for a while, I used Jeff Konrad's term "non-gay homosexual" but it was unwieldy, and even then I found it too potentially offensive). I was celibate and counseled/was counseled, etc., and held tight to my perception of homosexuality as contrary to God's will (brokenness at best, sin at worst) for 37 years (teetering for, say, the last 3 or 4 of that). I also did not ever experience any shift in the direction of my desires, and I became very weary with those who suggested I should if I was "doing it right."

I also know very well how frustrating it is to be in the position of having the gay-affirming "side" tell you you are being dishonest, fake, or "repressing" your real self. I didn't feel it was anyone else's place to decide that about me back then, and I cannot see it as my place to decide it about you, or anyone else, now. The possibility of change or life-long celibacy for someone else need not be a threat to the legitimacy (and rightness) of where I am now. I do hold to an objective view of the nature of truth, which means we probably can't both be right, but I also hold to a solid view of human fallibility, which means neither of us can be certain that it's the other one who's wrong. So we co-exist, and assume either one of us may be right on this one. It is, in a sense, simply giving the other (and yourself) the "right to be wrong." That's the only way (IMHO) we can continue talking, and not just go our separate ways (though that would be much easier).

When I was working with OneByOne (an "ex-gay" support and educational ministry serving the Presbyterian Church USA), I wrote an article entitled "Please Let Me Be Who I Am." ... the gist was how angry it made me to be a "man without a country" ... the "fundies" wouldn't have me, because I had this "struggle," and the "gays" wouldn't have me because I was "in denial." Why couldn't I be a Christian, gay, and celibate? Why did I have to choose one? My views have changed on much since then, but not on the idea that we must allow people to have their own journey, and not view their existence, beliefs, and experiences to be a "threat" to our own. Sometimes, even when a position is correct, it's not helpful. For what it's worth (like you need my permission) ... I allow you to be who you are, Karen. (Wow, aren't you relieved?)

I'm glad you're in the conversation (here and more broadly) --you're a delightful person. Will you stay and talk with us a while?

Ramble over. For now.

[Steven E. Webster]

Friends,

I don't have a problem at all with people who have a calling to celibacy. I believe that scripture and tradition suggests that celibacy is a calling that some have and some don't. (The Roman Catholic Church is finding that not very many people have the calling to celibacy, it seems from their priest shortage.) One should not prescribe life-long celibacy to those who do not have that calling from God (I think that was probably even Calvin's teaching.)

This leads to my question for Karen. Why shouldn't she simply refer to her self as a "celibate lesbian," or even simply as "celibate," rather than as "ex-gay?" That would be more honest and open and less mis-leading than the term "ex-gay."

One of the problems we have with the "Ex-gay" movement is that it seems deceptive and misleading. People are given the hope that they can establish happy, picture-perfect heterosexual marriages like Alan Chambers. Or that Jesus will keep them celibate when that is not their calling. People try to emulate "ex-gays" and find that they have neither the God-given gift of celibacy, nor the gift of a heterosexual orientation. God's gift to them may be a homosexual orientation and a same-gender spouse. Then, cruelest cut of all, many of these model "ex-gays" turn out to be completely phony.

Then, there is a problem of what the truth is.

It can be true that God calls some to heterosexuality, some to homosexuality and some to celibacy, or

it can be true that God calls people only to heterosexual monogamy or celibacy, but not to homosexuality.

Both cannot be true. Now, we can have differing views of the truth--but "X" and "not-X" can't be true at the same time and in the same way.

Sometimes we can live at peace with different views of the truth--the Bible and tradition even suggests we should strive for that in many cases. But we have a problem when we have one segment of society insist that all the rest of society agree with their truth or suffer official discrimination by that society.

The so-called "Ex-Gay movement" appears, too often, to be allied with those political movements who want to use the law to discriminate against LGBT people.

Some Christian denominations (like my United Methodist denomination) seem to be moving towards throwing their gay and lesbian kids out of their church homes because they won't accept the so-called "truth" that "homosexual practice is incompatible with Christian teaching." It isn't any different, spiritually, from parents throwing their LGBT kids out of their homes. Some Christian parents even throw their kids out on the streets, because they think that's the way to follow their faith.

Rarely are these church people satisfied with limiting discrimination to their church (where it is bad enough), they want to impose their teaching and discrimination on the rest of society as well. It is the churches that are our primary political adversaries in this society. Religious views of LGBT people are even regular material for Presidential politics for crying out loud!

I'm not judging where Karen comes down on all these issues, until I hear more from her. I don't know to what extent she is allied with an organization (Exodus) that seems to be allied with anti-LGBT political movements. But I will not make peace with a "truth" that demands the exclusion of God's children from their families' homes or from their church homes or from equality in society.

We, in Soulforce, are sticking to the truth that God (or "the soulforce at the center of the universe, if you will) wants all his/her children, gay and straight, treated with respect and dignity.

If Karen is here saying that some LGBT people are called to celibacy, I have no problem--I think she could even work with us for LGBT equality on that basis. If she's telling us LGBT people are inferior in any way to heterosexual persons in God's creation--I've got a problem.

If Karen is saying celibacy is essential to her spiritual path, I have no problem. If her theology is that the only spiritual path is celibacy or heterosexual monogamy, than I have a problem.

Preaching to us that God universally commands only heterosexual monogamy or celibacy is not acceptable in this forum, as I understand the rules--is that right?

Steven Webster

[BrentRichards]

Can't speak for Karen on this, only for myself. The reason I did not use those terms was that I felt I was called to celibacy, not in and of itself, but rather because of my homosexuality. It was, in my mind, the only moral choice --you know that I now feel differently. I could not, at the time, have embraced my gay identity, or worked in good conscience to advocate for others ... if I could have approved of it then, my sense of call to celibacy would have disappeared (as it now has). This is precisely the ground of the disagreement ... if I can't change, can I rightly act on my identity or no ...

I know of some gay men who have answered a call to celibacy that is unrelated to their orientation, and who would certainly not call themselves "ex-gay" ... the identification with the ex-gay movement, at least for me, meant that my celibacy was specifically because of my orientation (and my view that it was unacceptable), and not for any other reason. They're "animals" of two entirely different stripes.

[KennethJ]

Good Morning Karen,

I'm sure that I grew up within a very similar world view as you, and I used to have the same opinion. I think that one of the reasons I changed my mind is that I observed that God's truth is experienced in multiple revelations.. not just in the written word. God has disclosed Gods-self to us in many mysterious ways that can't be completely verbalized or explained. I feel God's disclosure in very experiential ways, like walking in nature or talking with a friend. I have also learned that truth is also stored in our bodies. Our bodies store truth about ourselves that our minds can often not process. For example, people in denial about something (like childhood abuse, for example) often develop psychosomatic type disorders like anxiety, stomach problems, or other physical problems. When they are able to admit what their minds are resisting (eg, come to acceptance of the abuse), the physical symptoms diminish or disappear.

So experience, to me, is a very important conveyor of truth. For many years I believed that God couldn't accept homosexuality. Therefore, God couldn't have a created a homosexual... Therefore I am not really a homosexual, I'm a "broken" heterosexual. And to me this just seemed so obvious because of certain passages of the Bible. And I believed that I must hold onto these beliefs at all cost if I am to be faithful to God.

Then I started developing illnesses: Anxiety, Irritable bowel syndrome, headaches... etc. etc. At that time I interpreted my life so heavily in terms of being "broken" and defective, that I really just thought that all these symptoms were a result of my own sinfulness, fallen nature, or defectiveness. And these were the messages of all the exodus books i was reading. And so I prayed about my symptoms, tried to medicate them with a doctor, and tried to ignore them the best I could and surrender the whole situation to God.

My body continued to fight until I eventually had a complete breakdown. My body finally got my mind's attention and forced it to reexamine everything. And eventually, I came to understand that I truly was a homosexual, and this had always been the case. I wasn't "broken" - I was just gay. And i wasn't just "gay" in terms of sexual desire. I was also mentally and spiritually gay. And all the physical symptoms began to disappear. Now I knew the truth about who I was. And I realized that my problems in life had nothing to do with my sexuality - they were because of the message given to me by everyone I loved that i was broken and defective and needed to crucify my true self in order to be acceptable. That's a very difficult thing to come to terms with, but I now have found a peace that before I did not know.

[u-dog]

And I realized that my problems in life had nothing to do with my sexuality - they were because of the message given to me by everyone I loved that i was broken and defective and needed to crucify my true self in order to be acceptable. That's a very difficult thing to come to terms with, but I now have found a peace that before I did not know.

:sing:Praise God from whom all blessings flow :sing:

[Zerbie]

Good Morning Karen,

I'm sure that I grew up within a very similar world view as you, and I used to have the same opinion. I think that one of the reasons I changed my mind is that I observed that God's truth is experienced in multiple revelations.. not just in the written word. God has disclosed Gods-self to us in many mysterious ways that can't be completely verbalized or explained. I feel God's disclosure in very experiential ways, like walking in nature or talking with a friend. I have also learned that truth is also stored in our bodies. Our bodies store truth about ourselves that our minds can often not process. For example, people in denial about something (like childhood abuse, for example) often develop psychosomatic type disorders like anxiety, stomach problems, or other physical problems. When they are able to admit what their minds are resisting (eg, come to acceptance of the abuse), the physical symptoms diminish or disappear.

So experience, to me, is a very important conveyor of truth. For many years I believed that God couldn't accept homosexuality. Therefore, God couldn't have a created a homosexual... Therefore I am not really a homosexual, I'm a "broken" heterosexual. And to me this just seemed so obvious because of certain passages of the Bible. And I believed that I must hold onto these beliefs at all cost if I am to be faithful to God.

Then I started developing illnesses: Anxiety, Irritable bowel syndrome, headaches... etc. etc. At that time I interpreted my life so heavily in terms of being "broken" and defective, that I really just thought that all these symptoms were a result of my own sinfulness, fallen nature, or defectiveness. And these were the messages of all the exodus books i was reading. And so I prayed about my symptoms, tried to medicate them with a doctor, and tried to ignore them the best I could and surrender the whole situation to God.

My body continued to fight until I eventually had a complete breakdown. My body finally got my mind's attention and forced it to reexamine everything. And eventually, I came to understand that I truly was a homosexual, and this had always been the case. I wasn't "broken" - I was just gay. And i wasn't just "gay" in terms of sexual desire. I was also mentally and spiritually gay. And all the physical symptoms began to disappear. Now I knew the truth about who I was. And I realized that my problems in life had nothing to do with my sexuality - they were because of the message given to me by everyone I loved that i was broken and defective and needed to crucify my true self in order to be acceptable. That's a very difficult thing to come to terms with, but I now have found a peace that before I did not know.

How deeply heartbreaking that you had to go through all of that. And only 29 years old, you've crossed a minefield. You've now acquired some deep insights into health as it intersects between the emotions, mind, and body.
Glad that you have made it to a healthy place, and that you've found peace with yourself.
:love::dove:

[Karen Keen]

Brent--I appreciate what you said about letting me "be me"-- I really relate to what you said about your personal experience in the past of being told you were repressed and getting hit from both sides.

I am curious--you were celibate for such a long time and a ministry director. What caused you to eventually decide that homosexuality was something God wanted you to accept about yourself? What I often hear from people is that they come to affirm homosexuality because they didn't experience change and they interpreted that lack of change as God's affirmation. Or, I also notice that a lot of Christians who decide to affirm their homosexuality end up throwing Christianity out or making drastic changes in their theology--not only on the issue of sexuality, but also christology. I know that is not the case with everyone, but from conversations I have and even from the Survivor Conference I noticed that a lot. I would be interested in hearing your experience of what made you see the issue differently, etc.

Steven-- I don't have a particular call to be celibate or the "gift of celibacy"-- I choose to be because I don't believe homosexuality is what God wants for my life. Brent explained it well in his last post--the reasons he had chosen to be celibate. Those are my reasons too.

As for "ex-gay" being misleading. I think it can be--it can certainly be a confusing term. I already discussed this in a previous post. I really don't like labels at all. As I said before: "same-sex attracted; non-practicing" best describes me. I see my sexual and romantic attractions as something I experience, not something I become. So I see myself as "little 'g' gay" as opposed to "big 'G' Gay"-- that is--I don't take it on as an identity. Its more of an experience (emotional/physical desire) to me than an identity.

Ex-gay might be accurate for others, but doesn't quite capture my experience. Its just the common term that is used. But I agree there are better terms to use that would be more accurate for some people. I think there are more categories than just "gay" or "ex-gay"-- this is a very polarized view of sexuality--I touch on this in my lastest blog post, "Can Gays Change?"

As for political involvement--I am not really involved politically on this issue. I certainly do not think anyone, gay or straight, should be discriminated in housing or employment, etc. As for the marriage thing--I've never been able to get too worked up about it on either side. Perhaps because I feel so ambivalent about marriage itself. Even when I was with women, I really didn't care what the government had to say about my relationships. I still don't. There are some rights attached to marriage--though I am not sure what they all are or whether it matters to me. I know being able to visit a loved one in the hospital etc would be very important to me. Its my understanding that there are other ways to legally allow another person to visit you and care for you in the hospital besides just being married? Anyway, gay marriage is not really a "cause" that I am interested in. I suppose both sides would be upset with me for saying that--but I'm just being honest. I spend a lot more of my energy on other causes like orphans in India, micro loans for those who are poverty stricken, etc.

And, Steven, to answer your question--yes I believe that God is saying to me celibacy or heterosexual monogamy. I explain this a bit in my response to keltic63 how I see my views relating not only to myself, but to others too, and how it relates to my belief that I am helping people and treating them with kindness by upholding the views I do (as bizarre as that might sound to you).

[Karen Keen]

Ken--you and I must be online at the same time because I just saw your last post after posting mine.

Thank you for your very thoughtful post. I definitely hear what you are saying and can see how things came together for you. Nancy Wilson touched on the idea of gleaning truth from different sources--as you did--experiential etc. And, you are right--our bodies tell us so much and we need to listen to what our bodies might be telling us. As when we get physically ill--something may be amiss emotionally.

As for me, I also came to my conclusions based on a mixture of factors. At first it may have been only the Bible, but I needed to see that reality on a spiritual level too. What has spoken powerfully to me is God's Spirit and where I see God's Spirit evident. I tend to be very sensitive to spiritual things--and from what I was sensing, God's Spirit was guiding me away from homosexuality. In terms of our bodies too--there is a sense of, What do our bodies tell us about sexuality on a most basic level? The fact that there is an opposite sex correspondence built into our bodies is something I cannot ignored entirely. I think it says something--at least it does for me on some level--though I place more weight on what I sense of God's Spirit telling me than on the physiology of the male and female body.

I really resonate with what you said about feeling sinful, broken etc. I had some serious emotional break-downs as well. I felt like God hated me and that I was a wretched, worthless being. It was the most amazing and liberating thing for me to know that God loves me no matter what--no matter where I am at in life. Today, I don't have any qualms about my same-sex attractions. It simply is what it is. I feel no guilt or shame about them. I see them more as a type of disability. In the same way that I accept my hearing loss and do not feel any shame about it, I also accept my same-sex attractions as part of my make-up.

So interesting the roads we travel and how we all glean from our experiences and take different viewpoints on these issues. I see many similiarities in where we all start with wrestling with what our same-sex attractions mean--and then the responses we have begins to diverge on different branches.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. I can see how you arrived at the place you did.

[Zerbie]

Brent--I appreciate what you said about letting me "be me"-- I really relate to what you said about your personal experience in the past of being told you were repressed and getting hit from both sides.

I think this is something we're all very concerned about: leaving people who are privately struggling to make sense of and peace with their private experience being caught between 2 fiercely opposed political sides. We need safe space for them to come to their peace privately in whatever way will be most healing for them. I imagine such a space is mighty difficult to find.


As for "ex-gay" being misleading. I think it can be--it can certainly be a confusing term. I already discussed this in a previous post. I really don't like labels at all.

Extremely misleading. My assumption if someone says they were once gay and now are not, is that they are now attracted to the opposite sex. Of the regularly posting members here, I think I have the hardest time with labels. We're alike in this way.


As I said before: "same-sex attracted; non-practicing" best describes me. I see my sexual and romantic attractions as something I experience, not something I become.

Well, me too. Always thought so. We get wrapped in identity language because that's how people talk about it, mostly. Of course there is also the issue of feelings and experiences being very deeply intrinsic to our personality, character, and spirit, so there is an intermixing of feelings & experience with what comprises identity. But on the whole, I view it much the same way you do. I just have a completely different understanding of what it means about life and spirituality.

So I see myself as "little 'g' gay" as opposed to "big 'G' Gay"-- that is--I don't take it on as an identity. Its more of an experience (emotional/physical desire) to me than an identity.

Ex-gay might be accurate for others, but doesn't quite capture my experience. Its just the common term that is used. But I agree there are better terms to use that would be more accurate for some people. I think there are more categories than just "gay" or "ex-gay"--

Always. Life is almost always more complex than a textbook explanation.

As for political involvement--I am not really involved politically on this issue. I certainly do not think anyone, gay or straight, should be discriminated in housing or employment, etc. As for the marriage thing--I've never been able to get too worked up about it on either side. Perhaps because I feel so ambivalent about marriage itself. Even when I was with women, I really didn't care what the government had to say about my relationships. I still don't. There are some rights attached to marriage--though I am not sure what they all are or whether it matters to me.

I'm glad to hear this. Some forumites will likely jump in here with a summary of the effects on same-sex couples of the lack of relationship recognition. There are many. I've witnessed tragedies because of this lack, & simply do not have the emotional energy at Sunday breakfast to go into a discussion of them. Perhaps another time.
Meanwhile, I am glad that you take a neutral stance on the highly volatile gay rights issues. I hope you will move to a place where someday you can fully support marriage equality for those who have made the choice to celebrate their relationships.



And, Steven, to answer your question--yes I believe that God is saying to me celibacy or heterosexual monogamy. I explain this a bit in my response to keltic63 how I see my views relating not only to myself, but to others too, and how it relates to my belief that I am helping people and treating them with kindness by upholding the views I do (as bizarre as that might sound to you).

I'm still struggling with this. Haven't gotten to where I know what you mean, yet. Are you saying a belief that other gay people should all be celibate or marry the opposite sex "helps" them? HOW?

[Zerbie]

Keltic63,

You are right to call me on what you did! If I were you I would have been thinking the same thing.

In the land of my meta-narrative I hold to the belief that God tells us to do things for our own good, and that if I were to accept homosexuality for anyone, I would actually be cruel and inhumane to you.

This probably sounds very odd to you, but by holding to the belief, not only for myself, but others as well, it is like me warning a person who is driving a car that the bridge is out up ahead. If I didn't say something, and the person drove off the bridge--what kind of person would I be? I would be like the callous priest who walked by the injured man instead of helping him. For me to say what I believe abut homosexuality is for me being the Good Samaritan.

I know that all probably sounds pretty crazy and backward to you since you have a very different understanding of the issues--but its actually, honestly what I believe. The Scriptures talk about how the ways of God lead to joy, health, peace and life. And so for me, holding the belief I do is about promoting that joy, health, life and peace for other people.

I actually think that I am helping people (not in the sense of an ex-gay ministry and change, but helping in the sense of helping people know God more intimately and enjoy all He has for us).

Finally found it! It was on the previous page.

Okay, yes: this is something we've seen and heard many times before. Intellectually I "get it," but there's more to the issue than what you have acknowledged above.

You have begun with the presumption that other people need you to help them know God: that they need your instructions in order to avoid driving their car over a bridge that has gone out. But it fails to acknowledge how MANY times we've heard the "warning" before, and it fails to acknowledge our authority and responsibility to determine for ourselves after inspecting the bridge, whether or not WE deem the bridge solid enough to hold us up.
Continual reminders about the bridge after this point turn into harassment. Once it turns into harassment for the listener, you've lost their interest.

The larger issue is the assumption underlying your desire to show others the way to God: that you have a relationship with God and they do not, or that yours is in better working order. For all you know, you could be addressing someone who has an utterly unbroken God-communion.

For each of us, the job is to find our OWN obstacles to that relationship with God and remove our OWN obstacles. None of us are done with that task, so that's what we need to focus on spiritually. In the world, our task is to help each other live in peace, feed the hungry, and so on. But we cannot control anyone else's inner life, and it's far better for them and us if we do not try.

[u-dog]

I started to get my shorts all in a knot reading Karen's opinion that it is God's will for Same Sex attracted people is to either live in hetero-sexual marriage or to live celibately. "GAY PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ASKED TO LIVE CELIBATELY OR IN RELATIONSHIPS FOR WHICH THEY WERE NOT CREATED" I wanted to shout (still do actually) "HOW DARE SHE!" I murmured. Then it dawned on me... Hey! thats my life! For the last quarter century Polly and I have lived in a heterosexual marriage and for long stretches we have also lived celibately.

So I feel I know something about what those two choices are like. First, let me say that I believe it was faithlessness that led me to make the choices I made. God offered me a perfectly good life as gay man and no doubt had wonderful possible life partners lined up out the door and around the corner waiting for me, but I chose to say "no thank you very much ... don't wanna live like that! I want people to like and respect me!" Talk about a slap in the divine face! Sorry God! :pray:

Second, let me say that in spite of my faithlessness that God has blessed my bad choices richly and far beyond my meager deserving. A best friend, a faithful partner, a reliable "Ezer" (look it up! Gen 2), three great kids, a satisfiying career.

Third, let me say... the cost remained high in spite of God's amazing Grace. twenty five years of chronic depression (that began with my first episode of "Gay Panic" and only began to abate when I came out to Polly and began to claim my IDENTITY as a gay man -- gosh! what a surprise.) FORTY years of pretending to be something I am not, living my life by "remote control" (let's see... what would a straight man say in THIS situation or DO in that circumstance or feel when this happens?)

Karen, I have lived those choices. I have lived them for long enough to know where they can and cannot lead. They DO NOT GLORIFY GOD no matter what you intend. God may and in fact DOES Glorify Godself in spite of those choices as my life attests, but the choices are... in and of themselves... barren. And most people who choose them are NOT blessed as I have been.

I would not go back in time and change my choices but I sure AS HELL (I use that word deliberately) would not recommend them to Austin or Greg or Jennifer or Brian (our younger members here). To them I would say "Go and find the right someone to love and cherish, to honor and care for and if you can't make flesh and blood babies together adopt some -- or create new spiritual life thats NOT baby-shaped but still blesses the world." I would say to them "Go and drink your wine with a merry heart enjoying the wife/husband whom you love all the days of your vain life for that is your portion in life and God has already approved what you do!"

I don't want to be disrespectful of your ideas or your choices... but I'm old and I've lived and experienced a lot and here is what I know: Love is everything. We were created for it and sex, while certainly not the WHOLE of love, is a pretty critical componant of it. Don't throw your life away.

Dave (called "grampa dave" by some of the more daring and reckless younger folk)

[Zerbie]

K

I tend to be very sensitive to spiritual things--and from what I was sensing, God's Spirit was guiding me away from homosexuality.

This may be something far too private to share, but if not, I would be quite interested in what led to this perception.

I place more weight on what I sense of God's Spirit telling me than on the physiology of the male and female body.

Yes!! Exactly! Yet we have utterly opposite understandings of what this means for life in the world. It stymies me, I must admit. But as I said earlier, I am sure that someday after this life we will all know what we as yet do not, and for now our task is to respect one another and help make the world a healthier place for one and all.

I really resonate with what you said about feeling sinful, broken etc. I had some serious emotional break-downs as well. I felt like God hated me and that I was a wretched, worthless being. It was the most amazing and liberating thing for me to know that God loves me no matter what--no matter where I am at in life. Today, I don't have any qualms about my same-sex attractions. It simply is what it is. I feel no guilt or shame about them. I see them more as a type of disability.

((((( Karen ))))) Feelings are not a disability! Feelings do not make you wretched or worthless!! :'( :'( :( Not at all! :love::love: They make you human, and that's actually a good thing to be. Human beings have astonishing potential.

I hope you are finding peace in your choices. Dave's (U-dog's) story breaks my heart. Can't tell you how many times I've read one of his posts and wanted to wrap arms around him and magically make the anguish of a lifetime disappear. :'(:love: Of course, that we cannot do for one another. We just uphold one another's spirit as best we can. I hope that your choices lead you to happiness and peace, and that feelings of worthlessness are long past: and NOT hinged on whether it's men or women who turn your head. Honestly, who cares? What matters is what's inside.

.

[u-dog]

I hope you are finding peace in your choices. Dave's (U-dog's) story breaks my heart. Can't tell you how many times I've read one of his posts and wanted to wrap arms around him and magically make the anguish of a lifetime disappear. :'(:love: Of course, that we cannot do for one another. We just uphold one another's spirit as best we can.

Hey Zerb!

I need all the love I can get and you can hug me ANYTIME!!! but don't take away my former anguish!! It's all part of the person I am becoming and as I say... God has blessed me (and Polly too) in SO MANY ways! God is good... ALL THE TIME!!

I just don't want the younguns to go down the same path I did! Let them make their own blunders and experience the Grace of God in some OTHER way ;)

[Zerbie]

Hey Zerb!

I need all the love I can get and you can hug me ANYTIME!!!



:):love::love::love::love::love:

I don't mean to try and change you either, Dave. . . just wanting you to be filled with joy and peace in the present. No one likes suffering, and clearly you've been through a lot of it.

Have some more flowers. :flower::flower2:

[u-dog]

:):love::love::love::love::love:

I don't mean to try and change you either, Dave. . . just wanting you to be filled with joy and peace in the present. No one likes suffering, and clearly you've been through a lot of it.

Have some more flowers. :flower::flower2:

Oh it wasn't so bad... I was NUMB through most of it. and there was a significant portion of joy sprinkled in. I will say that being awake and feeling is much better all and all.

[Karen Keen]

Zerbie,

I understand the point you are trying to make--the idea that some people are paternalistic and coming to help the "poor, misguided." etc. However, I dont think that really captures my sentiment. The idea that people should figure out their own instructions regarding the bridge misses the point of my metaphor--obviously if that happened in real life where we stood there and said, "Well, its their own responsibility to figure it out. I'm not going to say anything" and someone was in a car accident--that bystander would possibly be prosecuted under the law. So, I hear what you are saying, but it doesn't quite capture the nuances I was trying to convey with the metaphor.

Anyway, I totally agree that we are all responsible for making our own decisions in life. And, that being paternalistic or patronizing or holier than thou toward someone is obnoxious. And certainly continually harping on someone about something one disagrees on is harrassment. I don't repeatedly go around sharing my opinions on homosexuality with my gay friends. I'm discussing it here because that is where the conversation has gone and the questions people have asked me to answer. With my gay friends in every day life, we already know what the other thinks about the issue, and we spend our time talking about other more interesting things.

As for as the idea that I am presuming that people need my help to know God. I don't really see it that way. I don't see myself as above other people. I certainly need encouragement from others in my walk with God, and I definitely value other people's opinions about God even if I disagree with them. In fact, hearing others who have different opinions helps me to be more thoughtful of my own beliefs. I am in effect simply doing what everyone else is doing. Why are any of us on this discussion board? Why does Soulforce exist? Does Soulforce exist because it is being presumptuous that it knows how to lead people in the right way? Are you being presumptuous by offering your thoughts to me?

The fact of the matter is, we are all trying to influence each other and there is nothing patronizing about that. Naturally we like our own ideas otherwise we wouldn't hold them, and we wouldn't bother sharing them with others. We engage in conversation and we share because, perhaps, we might pass on a helpful tidbit to another, or glean something helpful from another. Whether I find what you say helpful to me, or you find what I say helpful to you is really beside the point. Its a natural part of human interaction. Its a natural part of all of us speaking out and using our voices because what we have to say is important. That's why I support anyone's right to be politically involved on different sides of the spectrum, even the sides I don't like. As Voiltaire (sp?) said "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Yes, I do believe I have something to offer to the world. I do believe I have some wisdom and insight, however small, to share. And, I am sure you do as well. And, neither of us are paternalistic or harrassment mongers for that.

Dave--I can totally understand why you would be upset. You share about some very painful and difficult years, and I am so sorry you had to go through that pain (though I am glad you have found some redemption in it). We both have our convictions and neither of us can deny them. They are what they are. But that does not mean I look down on you for your beliefs, and I hope you do not look down on me for mine. We are both living our lives the best we know how.

Even though we can pretend that its all about the private life and letting people live their private life. All of us are concerned with the larger picture-and so we talk publicly about the concerns we have and we talk to people in our sphere of influence in our real life communities etc. I don't think any of us, when we get to the bottom of things, is really relativisitc. If that were the case, no one on this board would have a complaint against Exodus--we would content ourselves that "it may not be right for me, but it its okay if that is what you want to do." And, we wouldn't get so paternalistic as to try to convince those going to ex-gay ministries that they are making a mistake and try to rescue them by having conferences like the Survivor Conference. The reality is you say "How dare she say that!" And yet why wouldn't I say what I believe? And why wouldn't you say what you believe? Of course we should--we should both say what we believe. Both of us care about people--we just see the world from different sides.

As for celibacy being faithlessness-- that doesn't make too much sense to me. Celibacy is certainly a suffering--but its not as if that is the worst suffering in the world not to be able to get married or have a sex life. There are people around the world who are in too much pain to even think about marriage or sex, and are just trying to stay alive physically. My fundamentalist upbringing always sent the message that unless you got married you were incomplete--there was something wrong with you. Ironically, I sometimes find the gay community saying the same thing. There are lots of people who don't have the "gift of celibacy" who for one reason or another are not able to get married or have found compelling reasons not to. Also, there are a lot of heterosexual marriages that have problems in the area of sexual intimacy-- a wife who cannot engage because of sex abuse wounds, or I know a woman in my town whose husband was in a terrible accident and had severe brain damage--she wasn't able to have relations with her husband because of his permanent condition. But I wouldn't suggest that they get divorced or commit adultery. Life is more than about sex and the perfect marriage.

[Karen Keen]

PS-- This may be a good time for me to bow out of the discussion here. I think further discussion might inevitably cross the policy boundaries. I don't want to be disrespectful of the sacred space here and its purpose. I originally signed on to clarify a comment made about my blog post. I feel we have had some great discussion and I really appreciate you all being willing to share with me. I have great respect for all of you.

If any folk want to continue the ex-gay/ex-ex gay discussion and dynamics I noticed blogger disputedmutability.wordpress.com is just starting up such a discussion and her blog tends to be a place both sides feel safe engaging on. Perhaps I'll see some of you over there.

Take good care, Karen

[u-dog]

Karen,

I'm not going to argue with you. you're a big girl and are certainly able to make your own choices and I truly wish you well. there are certainly all kinds of unhappy people in the world and lousy sex lives for all kinds of reasons, but I don't get why a person should therefore want to voluntarily join them or think that that's what God wanted them to do. Marriage and good sex aren't the only thing in life... but they are a couple of REALLY REALLY GOOD things in life. It was God who said, in Genesis 2

"Its not good for the man to be alone"

[keltic63]

Zerbie,

I understand the point you are trying to make--the idea that some people are paternalistic and coming to help the "poor, misguided." etc. However, I dont think that really captures my sentiment. The idea that people should figure out their own instructions regarding the bridge misses the point of my metaphor--obviously if that happened in real life where we stood there and said, "Well, its their own responsibility to figure it out. I'm not going to say anything" and someone was in a car accident--that bystander would possibly be prosecuted under the law. So, I hear what you are saying, but it doesn't quite capture the nuances I was trying to convey with the metaphor.


the metaphor inappropriately presumes that all homosexual relationships are a car wreck just waiting to happen. that just isn't the case. In fact, if we looked at the statistics for heterosexual relationships, we'd be warning straight couples to avoid marriage totally.

[Steven E. Webster]

It's not good for the man to be alone"


U-dog,

I just had to pick up here!

I use the "inclusive" translation of "adam" = "human" when I read Genesis chapter 2.

It is interesting that God in that Genesis story observes that the human feels lonely. God doesn't say God has a pre-set design, God tries something and then observes how it feels, how it works for the human.

The first human is alone. God observes it's "not good." So does God right off the bat create a spouse? No, God tries the whole animal kingdom first, brings them to the human and observes that they don't really solve the loneliness problem for the human--so it's "back to the drawing board."

Finally God actually creates a partner for the first human out of human flesh--the only human flesh at hand--from the first human. Then God waits to hear the human's reaction--"bingo!" God's got it right at last!

I'm fully aware how many Christians interpret this passage--some more, some less--in patriarchal and heterosexist ways. For many Christians this is THE passage that PROVES heterosexuality is the only way to go.

But I see in this story other possibilities---one which is pretty close to what some are saying here--God wants to applaud, affirm and bless the partner that is good for us! Not plug some unfeeling "male" plumbing fixture into some manufactured "female" receptacle (as our Fundamentalist Surgeon General Nominee would have it.)

Karen's rejection of the ideas of a "gift of celibacy" or a "call to celibacy" seems to me to be a rejection of Paul's teachings about celibacy and the collective wisdom of the Christian church through the ages regarding celibacy (I'm familiar with John Wesley's writings, for instance, on marriage and celibacy, and I believe Calvin & Luther taught much the same). She seems to think she is simply bearing some obligation to be celibate--it's her "cross," if you will. Not only does she bear this "cross," but she feels obligated to prescribe this "cross" for others. If this "cross" is really a joy or blessing for her--then she has the gift of celibacy whether she calls it that or not. That does not guarantee that this "cross" is for others to bear.

God was kinder to the first human then that--he didn't say, "Look, I made a perfectly good aardvark for you, be satisfied with that for companionship!"

Paul said outright that he preferred people to remain celibate, but if one found it difficult or impossible to be celibate, it is far better to marry. Yes, Paul would not likely have approved same-gender marriage--but given that we believe that God's creation includes people who are same-gendered oriented, and who face the same dilemma as single heterosexual persons, why not also approve marriage for the same-gender oriented?

We are entitled to our own interpretations of religion and the bible--we are not, however, entitled to impose our religious views on the whole of society--the denial of the benefits of marriage by law to same gender couples is such an imposition.

Exodus and NARTH also enjoy certain freedoms. Freedom from criticism isn't one of them--none of us is free from that.

Steven Webster

[keltic63]

I started to get my shorts all in a knot reading Karen's opinion that it is God's will for Same Sex attracted people is to either live in hetero-sexual marriage or to live celibately. "GAY PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ASKED TO LIVE CELIBATELY OR IN RELATIONSHIPS FOR WHICH THEY WERE NOT CREATED" I wanted to shout (still do actually) "HOW DARE SHE!" I murmured. Then it dawned on me... Hey! thats my life! For the last quarter century Polly and I have lived in a heterosexual marriage and for long stretches we have also lived celibately.

So I feel I know something about what those two choices are like. First, let me say that I believe it was faithlessness that led me to make the choices I made. God offered me a perfectly good life as gay man and no doubt had wonderful possible life partners lined up out the door and around the corner waiting for me, but I chose to say "no thank you very much ... don't wanna live like that! I want people to like and respect me!" Talk about a slap in the divine face! Sorry God! :pray:

Second, let me say that in spite of my faithlessness that God has blessed my bad choices richly and far beyond my meager deserving. A best friend, a faithful partner, a reliable "Ezer" (look it up! Gen 2), three great kids, a satisfiying career.

Third, let me say... the cost remained high in spite of God's amazing Grace. twenty five years of chronic depression (that began with my first episode of "Gay Panic" and only began to abate when I came out to Polly and began to claim my IDENTITY as a gay man -- gosh! what a surprise.) FORTY years of pretending to be something I am not, living my life by "remote control" (let's see... what would a straight man say in THIS situation or DO in that circumstance or feel when this happens?)

Karen, I have lived those choices. I have lived them for long enough to know where they can and cannot lead. They DO NOT GLORIFY GOD no matter what you intend. God may and in fact DOES Glorify Godself in spite of those choices as my life attests, but the choices are... in and of themselves... barren. And most people who choose them are NOT blessed as I have been.

I would not go back in time and change my choices but I sure AS HELL (I use that word deliberately) would not recommend them to Austin or Greg or Jennifer or Brian (our younger members here). To them I would say "Go and find the right someone to love and cherish, to honor and care for and if you can't make flesh and blood babies together adopt some -- or create new spiritual life thats NOT baby-shaped but still blesses the world." I would say to them "Go and drink your wine with a merry heart enjoying the wife/husband whom you love all the days of your vain life for that is your portion in life and God has already approved what you do!"

I don't want to be disrespectful of your ideas or your choices... but I'm old and I've lived and experienced a lot and here is what I know: Love is everything. We were created for it and sex, while certainly not the WHOLE of love, is a pretty critical componant of it. Don't throw your life away.

Dave (called "grampa dave" by some of the more daring and reckless younger folk)

u-dog, there is so much here that resonates with me. Some days, I feel robbed; robbed of a long and loving relationship with the right person (with the right parts!) I can truly say that while there were blessings within my straight marriage, there is an abundance of blessings in my life as an out gay man. the cup overflows on a regular basis! does that mean I'd change any of it? No. I believe that things have happened as they should have, and that without this particular course of events, I would not be who I am, my ex-wife would not be who she is (or have the potential to become something greater after having the experience) and the children are here to fulfill some great purpose that can only be dreamed of at the moment. I think of how compassionless I may have been without ever having gone through the crisis that I endured; I think about the lessons my children have learned from my personal growth. I think about the good things that my partner and I share now, and it's most likely that we would never have met, had each of us made different choices 15-20 years ago.

No, I wouldn't change this life, but like you, I would not recommend it to anyone. The real key is to be honest about who one is. Honest, and unapologetic.


everybody sing it with me now: I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses :sing:

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,

I understand the point you are trying to make--the idea that some people are paternalistic and coming to help the "poor, misguided." etc. However, I dont think that really captures my sentiment. The idea that people should figure out their own instructions regarding the bridge misses the point of my metaphor--obviously if that happened in real life where we stood there and said, "Well, its their own responsibility to figure it out. I'm not going to say anything" and someone was in a car accident--that bystander would possibly be prosecuted under the law. So, I hear what you are saying, but it doesn't quite capture the nuances I was trying to convey with the metaphor.

Anyway, I totally agree that we are all responsible for making our own decisions in life. And, that being paternalistic or patronizing or holier than thou toward someone is obnoxious. And certainly continually harping on someone about something one disagrees on is harrassment. I don't repeatedly go around sharing my opinions on homosexuality with my gay friends. I'm discussing it here because that is where the conversation has gone and the questions people have asked me to answer. With my gay friends in every day life, we already know what the other thinks about the issue, and we spend our time talking about other more interesting things.

.

Hi Karen,

I don't know if you will see this since you have, apparently, gone. Of course the bridge metaphor isn't completely parallel to the spiritual paths we were discussing! I don't think you meant it to be, and I certainly didn't, but since you brought it out there, I kept it for a moment. The part of your text that I bolded is where the metaphor most obviously breaks down. I don't see your "nuances." Sorry. :(


The spiritual path is inside where no one else outside can see it. I'm glad you steer away from "harping" or "harassing." I think that sharing your beliefs once or twice in a polite and calm context is only a fair way of revealing yourself to those around you when you choose. If someone else around takes inspiration or help from that, good. If not, they can leave it. I get concerned about the many people who share your belief that something is wrong with homosexuality but who feel entitled to continually blare this statement to all the world, to the point of inhibiting the right of other people to live in safety, keep their jobs, or have relationships recognized. Yes I understand that you are not doing this, and thank you.

As long as we can respect that, even though we cannot see the path someone else is treading, there IS A PATH THERE, we are in a good place. With respect for someone's journey, we will not construct obstacles to the civil rights and peaceful lives of others.

Above all, I'm glad to hear that you have gay friends who you do not pressure to make your same choices, and that you talk about other things. That's just plain good. :)

Karen, if you don't come back, I wish you the best on your journey. You are welcome to come back here if at any time you want to revisit any questions or concerns from the perspective of SF members. I for one won't be joining you on the ex-gay blog because it isn't appealing to me to do so. As we part ways, just want to say to you: there is nothing wrong with you, Karen. There is nothing wrong with your feelings. It's okay that you feel the way you do, and if you feel that your inner guidance says you must not act on your feelings for women, then I agree that you need to respect that. If at any point, that need comes into too much conflict with your feelings of attraction to endure, you are more than welcome to come speak with us some more. You'll find a lot of understanding and open arms should that happen. And probably also if it does not. I hope visiting here was a positive experience for you. I know you are walking down a very difficult road.
:pray:

[Zerbie]

God was kinder to the first human then that--he didn't say, "Look, I made a perfectly good aardvark for you, be satisfied with that for companionship!"
Steven Webster

Bwah!! :lol:

I love it!!

Hey: Keltic, love you too! :sing: Is that the song from "Follies?" I never got to see that show - would love to!! Hubby says it's an excellent, excellent show.

[Steven E. Webster]

PS-- This may be a good time for me to bow out of the discussion here. I think further discussion might inevitably cross the policy boundaries. I don't want to be disrespectful of the sacred space here and its purpose. I originally signed on to clarify a comment made about my blog post. I feel we have had some great discussion and I really appreciate you all being willing to share with me. I have great respect for all of you.

If any folk want to continue the ex-gay/ex-ex gay discussion and dynamics I noticed blogger disputedmutability.wordpress.com is just starting up such a discussion and her blog tends to be a place both sides feel safe engaging on. Perhaps I'll see some of you over there.

Take good care, Karen

Friends,
This is a very interesting blog that Karen refers us to----doesn't make alot of sense to me--but verrrry interesting! (I'm unconsciously channeling an old 60's comedy show). I suppose my lack of understanding comes partly from not being either "ex-gay" or "ex-exgay". Part of it may be that I'm 28 years older than the 28 year-old who is doing the blogging.

This blogger (who sounds alot like Karen, but seems to be someone else) seems to be insightful, but confused at the same time. Maybe I see things too black & white---but then again maybe she is confused.

I read several of her posts. She seems to have really enjoyed Peterson Toscano's "Homo' No Mo'" She seems to really appreciate Peterson's exexgay perspective.

She says she wants to bridge the "culture war" gap--and her heart seems in the right place. She reads the Box Turtle Bulletin site and is appropriately horrified at the way right-wing homophobes use the ex-gay movement for political gain.

As I said, verrrrry interesting! Check the blog out--do you think it's Karen?

Steven Webster

[u-dog]

u-dog, there is so much here that resonates with me.
No, I wouldn't change this life, but like you, I would not recommend it to anyone. The real key is to be honest about who one is. Honest, and unapologetic.


everybody sing it with me now: I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses :sing:

Yes, my brother, I feel totally heard. Thank you! :)

[KennethJ]

After reading all these posts... I think... How I long for a day when Gay and Lesbian people will be loved and appreciated for who they are and live in WHOLENESS with all of themselves... and won't have to compartmentalize themselves into "unwanted attractions" or see themselves as broken or sick or sinful or break the unity of their experience in order to be accepted by the god of the establishment!

[tdogg]

u-dog, there is so much here that resonates with me. Some days, I feel robbed; robbed of a long and loving relationship with the right person (with the right parts!) I can truly say that while there were blessings within my straight marriage, there is an abundance of blessings in my life as an out gay man. the cup overflows on a regular basis! does that mean I'd change any of it? No. I believe that things have happened as they should have, and that without this particular course of events, I would not be who I am, my ex-wife would not be who she is (or have the potential to become something greater after having the experience) and the children are here to fulfill some great purpose that can only be dreamed of at the moment. I think of how compassionless I may have been without ever having gone through the crisis that I endured; I think about the lessons my children have learned from my personal growth. I think about the good things that my partner and I share now, and it's most likely that we would never have met, had each of us made different choices 15-20 years ago.

No, I wouldn't change this life, but like you, I would not recommend it to anyone. The real key is to be honest about who one is. Honest, and unapologetic.


everybody sing it with me now: I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses :sing:

Steven, this is exactly how I feel! Part of me is a little angry (or at least used to be), feeling that I was robbed of experience "life" fully in the way I was made to experience it. Then I think, if not for the experiences I did have (negative as well as positive) I would not be the person I am today, and I sorta like that person! And, I possibly would not have met my partner, or if I did, would not necessarily be in a state to allow me to have a relationship with her. So, everything in my life up to this point has enabled me to be at this point in my life now.

Can't be too mad - it's a pretty great life right now!

[u-dog]

Seems to be a recurring theme... at least among this "glass half-full" community :)

I also have to remember that if I had come out instead of marrying Polly it would have been

1. In New York City
2. In 1982 or 83

In other words.... Ground Zero of the AIDS epidemic before anyone knew anything about AIDS, what it was, how it was spread. I think I will just take my life and say "thank you". But I DO want some better options for the next generation of young GLBT people!!

[Karen Keen]

I'm sorry, but I had to pop in one more time to say: For crying out loud Steven--no I am *not* Disputed Mutability. I wonder why you even felt the need to say something like that--to discount me or her in some way? I just recently discovered her blog and find it very interesting. Even Ex-Gay Watch has her on their blogroll and many ex-ex gays dialogue on her blog. She has been in the blogosphere a lot longer than me. I think she may even know Christine Bakke--or at least they were ministered to by the same ex-gay leaders at one time.

And, one important distinction between DM and I--she is married now and I am not.

Okay--goodbye again . . . :)

PS-- Zerbie--thanks for your last post. I did read it. You sound like a kindhearted, reasonable person. Take care.

[Zerbie]

PS-- Zerbie--thanks for your last post. I did read it. You sound like a kindhearted, reasonable person. Take care.

Just about everyone here is quite reasonable and extremely kindhearted. I hope you saw that, despite the mix-up someone made about blogger identities.

[Steven E. Webster]

I'm sorry, but I had to pop in one more time to say: For crying out loud Steven--no I am *not* Disputed Mutability. I wonder why you even felt the need to say something like that--to discount me or her in some way? I just recently discovered her blog and find it very interesting. Even Ex-Gay Watch has her on their blogroll and many ex-ex gays dialogue on her blog. She has been in the blogosphere a lot longer than me. I think she may even know Christine Bakke--or at least they were ministered to by the same ex-gay leaders at one time.

And, one important distinction between DM and I--she is married now and I am not.

Okay--goodbye again . . . :)

PS-- Zerbie--thanks for your last post. I did read it. You sound like a kindhearted, reasonable person. Take care.

Karen,
I'm glad you're still here. I did not intend to hurt your feelings, nor discount you. Criticize what I said, not what you think I intended, please.

Again, I found the blog and the view points represented there and by you interesting. They provoke thought, they make me wonder--but I do find them strange at the same time. No time to explore that strangeness at this moment, but maybe later.

On the positive side--it does force one to get beyond "black & white thinking," which is always a temptation and always good to challenge.

Don't stay away. If you're breaking any rules, someone will let you know nicely. (The first time, anyway.)

Steven Webster