Why Zerbie is not christian

[Zerbie]

Since Antony asked.

I was not taken to churches as a small child. That is why the following incident relates my first and formative encounter with christianity.

I guess I was about 9 or so. The news was wrapping up on TV and I caught some of the talk about AIDS; it was my first time hearing about it. It was really obvious from the way the newscasters were speaking that it was considered an outsider's disease and that no one was expected to care because the disease "only affects homosexual men." I was horrified to discover the attitude among my fellow Americans that gay men should be left to die, and was on the verge of full-blown moral panic when a "christian leader" was interviewed.

As soon as they announced a religious leader would address the television audience, I completely relaxed again in my unshakeable faith that any spiritual leader will instruct the public that, whether we like someone or not, it's our spiritual duty to provide the life-saving care that is needed. With complete assurance I waited for him to say so. He began speaking about god and christianity, and to my everlasting horror he told the world that the disease was god's punishment to men for being homosexual.

I fell off the furniture in a screaming fit, calling for my parents and screaming "The reverend is a murderer! The reverend is a murderer!" When my mom got to me and discovered the source of my distress, she affirmed that homosexuals were getting exactly what they deserved. I begged her to try to save lives, but she looked at me like my face was rotting off and covered in maggots. Then she backed me into a corner and slapped me in the face repeatedly while screaming that homosexuals are sick and deserve to die and that I should never speak to anyone about the subject again.

Later that night I packed a bag, in case my parents asked me to leave the house (I underestimated their capacity for ignoring obvious crises for extended periods of time). I felt my parents oblivious to my existence, and I was morally horrified of them for condoning what the christian leader said. That night, I mentally severed all ties to my biological family.

Ultimately, that entire experience came to define christianity to me.
The genocidal language from the christian leader was horrifying enough. And genocide is one of the first things I think of when I hear the word "Christian."

But far, far worse was the denial of the nature of God -- lying to claim God a hate-filled monster. To do that to the indescribable Eternal Lord - - - - there are no words strong enough to tell how wrong that is. That blasphemy became the essence of what I understand Christianity to mean.

[Progo35]

Zerbie-I'm sorry, that's horrible. I've had exactly the same reaction as you, esp. when I was that age. People are pretty horrible.

[pnggrad79]

Zerbie,
You were a victim of toxic religion, not Christianity, as Christ exemplified. The Church today is NOT Christian, it is full of toxic religion that is in no way shape or form of Christ, because it is opposite of what Christ taught and what Christ did for human beings. He stuck up for the outcasts, the dregs, and the marginalized of society. When He died, he died as everyone past, present, and future, to cover the sins we have all committed from here on out. There is no need for any more sacrifice, because Christ was the ultimate. He showed his love and that is all. His love is perfect and he told us that His love would drive out all fear, hatred, animosity and hostility. Apparently, the Church today has forgotten that little part.
I hope and pray that God shows you his love, but steers you away from toxic religion. :pray:

[wmanion]

Zerbie,
I had a cousin who died of AIDS in the late 80's. I live in a city of about 100.000 and the night of the visitation, the minister who had agreed to do the funeral called the family together and told them that he did know that my cousin was gay and had died of AIDS. He told them that since he had all ready agreed to do the funeral that he would do something short and read a passage from the Bible but he would not speak of my cousin even having a chance of being in heaven because he was burning in hell. My aunt told the minister in no uncertain terms to take a hike.
The funeral home called every minister in our city to do the funeral and all refused. Finally, a minister from 100 miles away came and conducted the service. To this day my Aunt and the majority of my family has nothing to do with Christianity or religion. I no longer attend a church and do not consider myself religious but I do have a relationship with God and as far as my church goes...I think I have found it right here at SoulForce...this is a place where believers have come together and share God's love and church in itself is the believers not any building, or any denomination.
To realize the wrong in the message at such an early age shows you have a heart of gold.

Bill

[pnggrad79]

Zerbie,
I grew up Southern Baptist and coming out was hard for me. I had been taught that being gay was satanic, etc. I argued with myself for years about my sexuality. I justified, and rationalized it all. Finally, after praying and begging God to make me not be a lesbian, I finally quit trying so hard. I accepted his love and and committed myself to my new lover. She is wonderful.
Since then I have come to see that God is much bigger than the tiny little boxes straight religion keeps Him in. He loves me just like I am, and you too.
He is not the toxic, mean, hateful God of the Religious Right. They are the Religious Wrong.
Please don't look for God among most Christians, they have no idea who He is or what He is all about. To me God is love and that is the whole reason Jesus even existed was to reconcile God to us. Love, not hate. That is all God is-LOVE. Not the toxic people who beat you up emotionally.
We love you.:love:

[u-dog]

On the Day of Judgement, Zerb, you are going to look up and see the lamb upon the throne (metaphorical image) and you are going to know who he is and you are going to know that you knew all along. He/She is going to look at you, smile broadly, and give you a big stage wink like the two of you are sharing a private joke.

The Reverend will be no where to be seen.

That is my belief.

[Gennee]

I'm sorry what happened, Zerbie. Not all Christians are like this. I remember when AIDS first came prevalent here It was associated with the new wave of refugees, most notably Haitian men. That was a lie, too. To say that someone deserves to die to me invalidates what that person believes or who they worship. Losing anybody to AIDS or any other disease is horrible.

There are churches who do help those suffering from AIDS. I'm thankful that the church I attend is one such church. It is also the opportunity to demosnstrate and share God's love with these men and women. Jesus loves them just like anybody else. As I always say, Jesus is inclusive.

Don't judge all Christians by what happened to you when you were a child. There are many loving and caring Christians ministering to people suffering with AIDS throughout the world.

Gennee

[paul]

Zerbie,
Sigh. What an amazing 9 year old you were. I too am not a Christian, but it took me a bit longer. If there is a God (and there may be, I don't know), I hope God is not the one described in much of the bible.

Your story about the t.v. preached reminded me of this trailer I've seen on comedy central...I think the comdeian is Lisa Silverman? (not sure). Anyway, she's in front of an elementary school class and says: "we can put a man on the moon, so we can put a man with AID's on the moon. Then someday we can put all men with AID's on the moon." :lol: That about sums up the attitude of some.

My brother was one of the first to die of AID's. PBS came to the hospital and did a special on him. My mom put ton's of pressure on him to "repent" when he was wasted away and dying. He never got over the guilt of being gay his 42 years on earth, and it was the frosting when he died. All justified as "love" to keep him from the eternal torture of hell prepared by these peoples loving "God." I'm with you. I cannot fathom that such a "God" exists.

[dsdrane]

On the Day of Judgement, Zerb, you are going to look up and see the lamb upon the throne (metaphorical image) and you are going to know who he is and you are going to know that you knew all along. He/She is going to look at you, smile broadly, and give you a big stage wink like the two of you are sharing a private joke.

The Reverend will be no where to be seen.

That is my belief.

That is my belief, too.

I now consider myself a Christian insofar as I believe God is Love and Christ's one imperative was to love one another.

Others perhaps would not consider me a Christian because I balk at the notion that following Christ is The Way (with due deference to his "movement's" original moniker) -- as opposed to A Way.

I've made a conscience decision to embrace Christ as My Way for a number of reasons, none of which precludes the certainty with which I believe others will enter "heaven" through other means.

To me, someone's religion or lack thereof is irrelevant; what matters to me is their character and ability and willingness to love.

Considering Zerbie is Love, I look forward to hanging with her for eternity.

:love::love:

[Progo35]

These stories are SO sad...I wish that there were more people like the few adults I've met over the last few years besides my parents that I truly love and respect as Christians-they are hard to find. The two people would NEVER do what Zerbie or wmanion experienced. But some people I know would, and that's a real tragedy.

You know, I believe that Christ is necessary for salvation, which sometimes makes it hard because that belief in itself comes across as intolerant and toxic. But, if you really care about someone, would you not share that truth with them in love? And, for those who are not Christian, wouldn't you still Hope for their salvation in love, even if they die without knowing Christ? Thats the approach I like to take. I think T-Dog has made a stellar point. As the Bible indicates, when we go to heaven there will be people there that some didn't expect to see...and others that some DID expect to see, sadly, will not be there. And, just as a sidenote, sometimes I wonder if people who believe in the Resurrection of Christ but don't want to call themselves Christians ought to come up with a new name for themselves? Because as the Bible also indicates, it isn't what you believe about other people's salvation that saves you, but your personal relationship with Christ/God.

[Zerbie]

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

Thank you all for all the feedback and stories. I'll respond more later. . . have something to do now, and want to save more quality time for this discussion.

[Daniel]

Zerbie- The encounter you descibe sounds like something out of Mommie Dearest or an episode of the Twilight Zone. Scary music and all. I think we could safely say that your mother's actions were not motivated by love.

You know, I believe that Christ is necessary for salvation, which sometimes makes it hard because that belief in itself comes across as intolerant and toxic.

Ok....if you don't want to be insulted, don't read any further. I'm trying to be very patient here, but a little voice inside my head wants to YELL.

The truth is that this kind of belief does come across as toxic, arrogant and oppressive.

What IS it about Christians that they have to trot this kind of thinking out? (Yeah...I know, I know....it's the whole 'I am the Truth and THE life' verse'......how monovision of one...how perfectly LITERAL...let's just drain the gnosis out of the good ol' book entirely....shall we?)

My feeling is that this kind of thinking is an example of the WORST kind of spiritual materialism (which is a great book btw). It turns religion, faith and Jesus into a product, a card that has to be punched to get past the pearly gates, the Ultimate Validation and Badge of Martyrdom.

Don't leave home without it! So the advertizing line goes. It's merchantile thinking at it's finest!

THIS is why I can not longer call myself a Christian in the way that fundies do, though I count myself a follower of Christ.

I stand with our dear Dsdrane.

'A' rather than 'The'.

[pnggrad79]

I can certainly understand why some people do not want to call themselves Christians as it has been a source of much heartbreak and hatred for so many.
Like I said, when I came out, I felt like I couldn't be gay and Christian both. So for 3 years I stayed out of church, didn't pray, didn't have much to do with God at all. But something inside me was deeply longing for and missing that fellowship with God that I once had while struggling with my sexuality.

Gandhi said it best (and pardon me if I don't get it right), "I would like Christianity if it weren't for the Christians" or something to that effect. It is so true.

True Christianity as Christ exemplified himself, does not bear any resemblance to the Christianity of today. It is a poor representation of what Christ did on the cross and what he was to his followers and to many since then. If Christ were to come back today I think he would be sadly disappointed with the Church and all the damage it has done in His name to many people.

It is no small wonder why so many gay and lesbian people do not want to associate themselves with mainline Christianity. A follower of Christ alludes to a more personal relationship with God and not what everyone else says it is. My relationship to God is just that-MINE.

The Bible says, "Love one another". It says nothing about hating someone else because they are different from you. It says nothing about denying people basic rights because it doesn't fit with their image of what is normal.

Candace Chellew-Hodge of Whosoever, says she is a recovering Southern Baptist. I am, too. In my opinion, she has a vibrant relationship with God and it has nothing to do with being a Southern Baptist. Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, whatever, is just a box we wrap around God to manage Him and make Him fit our agenda.

We need to break out of those bonds of hatred, ignorance and misinformation and seek God out for who He is and what He wants to do in our lives. God sought us out. God provided a way for us to come back to Him. God is still seeking. It requires an open heart and willing spirit. Not "The Baptist Faith and Message". or "The Roman Road" or any of that.

[mjules]

This has been an interesting thread for me to read, since - for many of the reasons a lot of you have described - I am wrestling with my own spirituality and beliefs at the moment. So I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone being so honest and not-pat-answered.

:love:

In the meantime, someone might have to tell me where to find a support group for my poor ol' Dad to attend... he's an ordained Assembly of God minister - even though he's left behind several of the more stringent aspects of that denomination - and I'm afraid he's going to have to have blood pressure medication soon if I keep saying things like, "But I'm not sure the Bible is accurate, even if it should be taken literally, and how come I have to stake my eternal salvation on what "a band of unschooled ruffians and a few old fishermen" (to quote Larry Norman) remembered to write down? I mean, for all you know, they forgot something IMPORTANT, or they wrote it down wrong. How many times has Mom sent you to the store with a list and you come back with the wrong thing?" :lol:

[BruceChris]

God is Love, Jesus' message is to love one another, and as Will Rogers said,
"Being in a church makes you a Christian, Kinda like being in a garage makes you an automobile". - Or words to that effect.

O.K., Zerbie, even if you are not a Christian, you are a loving human being, and a wonderful role model.

And we ain't gonna let ya ferget it.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,
You were a victim of toxic religion, not Christianity, as Christ exemplified. The Church today is NOT Christian,

No kidding!!

The problem is, that's the experience, with it's sights, smells, sounds and all, that pervades me when I hear the word "Christian," which is why it has taken decades for me to discover that there are people out there who call themselves christian who aren't genocidal monsters.


I hope and pray that God shows you his love, but steers you away from toxic religion. :pray:

Oh no worries there! I felt quite sufficiently steered and warned away from the "toxic" stuff by that experience. In fact, I avoided churches and "christians" quite completely.

God shows love continuously! I would almost say, everyplace EXCEPT in churches.

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,
I had a cousin who died of AIDS in the late 80's. I live in a city of about 100.000 and the night of the visitation, the minister who had agreed to do the funeral called the family together and told them that he did know that my cousin was gay and had died of AIDS. He told them that since he had all ready agreed to do the funeral that he would do something short and read a passage from the Bible but he would not speak of my cousin even having a chance of being in heaven because he was burning in hell. My aunt told the minister in no uncertain terms to take a hike.


Good for her!!!!

The funeral home called every minister in our city to do the funeral and all refused. Finally, a minister from 100 miles away came and conducted the service. To this day my Aunt and the majority of my family has nothing to do with Christianity or religion. I no longer attend a church and do not consider myself religious but I do have a relationship with God and as far as my church goes...I think I have found it right here at SoulForce...this is a place where believers have come together and share God's love and church in itself is the believers not any building, or any denomination.
To realize the wrong in the message at such an early age shows you have a heart of gold.

Bill

Bill, what a heartbreaking story! :'( Can't these people see that their cruel words are driving people away from Christianity by the thousands???

Your aunt's story reminds me very much of my own reaction - - you know? If THIS is Christianity, God keep me far from it.

Thanks for your gentle words Bill. I'm glad you feel you have a community here. So do I. :love::love::love:

[Progo35]

I don't really know what to say in regard to the idea that one needs Christ-it isn't something that Christians "cling" to as a materialistic, selfish thing IF THEY TRULY LOVE OTHERS. As I said in my former post, I continue to HOPE FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. I know that God is a GOd of love, which is why I like Julian of NOrwhich so much. I don't know what God has planned for anyone in particular, but I know that He never makes mistakes. And, if I were a minister, I would preach loudly that we MUST help AIDS sufferers. I would NEVER do what the people we've been talking about have done, at least, I WILL always give my utmost NOT do to those things.

My believing one way or the other, of course, doesn't make the belief perfect or provable. I hope with all my heart that I will see everyone I love in Heaven, and even those I don't love-no matter what religion they chose.

[Zerbie]

On the Day of Judgement, Zerb, you are going to look up and see the lamb upon the throne (metaphorical image) and you are going to know who he is and you are going to know that you knew all along. He/She is going to look at you, smile broadly, and give you a big stage wink like the two of you are sharing a private joke.

.

:love::love::love:
Dearest Dave,

What a beautiful image! Leave it to me, though, I may very well see what appears to be an actual soft little lamb. Yes, I know who He is. :dove:




I'm sorry what happened, Zerbie. Not all Christians are like this.

Don't judge all Christians by what happened to you when you were a child. Gennee

It has taken me a lifetime to find this out. I know not all christians are like that. Thank you. :love:I won't keep this a grudge against anyone anymore.

Zerbie,
Sigh. What an amazing 9 year old you were. I too am not a Christian, but it took me a bit longer. If there is a God (and there may be, I don't know), I hope God is not the one described in much of the bible.


My brother was one of the first to die of AID's. PBS came to the hospital and did a special on him. My mom put ton's of pressure on him to "repent" when he was wasted away and dying. He never got over the guilt of being gay his 42 years on earth, and it was the frosting when he died. All justified as "love" to keep him from the eternal torture of hell prepared by these peoples loving "God." I'm with you. I cannot fathom that such a "God" exists.

(((((((((( Paul )))))))))) :love: Your brother's story, like yours, makes me melt with grief. I wish I could have held your brother's hand.
Thank you for being here, Paul.
:pray::love:


I now consider myself a Christian insofar as I believe God is Love and Christ's one imperative was to love one another.

He is. It was.

Considering Zerbie is Love, I look forward to hanging with her for eternity.

:love::love:

:o:'(
David, how can I ever live up to that?!
:pray:

:love::love::love::love::love:




As the Bible indicates, when we go to heaven there will be people there that some didn't expect to see...and others that some DID expect to see, sadly, will not be there.

That sounds quite possible.


And, just as a sidenote, sometimes I wonder if people who believe in the Resurrection of Christ but don't want to call themselves Christians ought to come up with a new name for themselves? Because as the Bible also indicates, it isn't what you believe about other people's salvation that saves you, but your personal relationship with Christ/God.

That might not be a bad idea at all.
Z

]

THIS is why I can not longer call myself a Christian in the way that fundies do, though I count myself a follower of Christ.

'.

Thank you Daniel. This seems to be the critical distinction.

Much love to you. :love:

[Pablo Rafael]

It is always distressing to me when people have a negative reaction when hearing the word "Christian". Maybe those of us who hold to the teachings of Christ DO need a new name to distinguish ourselves from those who bring judgement and condemnation rather than hope and joy.

I do believe that most people who call themselves Christian are decent, loving people. Unfortunately we all remember the few bad examples more than the many good examples. I think that is why so many Christians think so negativly about LGBT individuals; they have heard of some worst-case examples and remember those people rather than the many kind, decent LGBT people around them.

I look at the Christians on these forums and realize what a great group of people they are. The kind, loving people who truly do try to follow the command of Christ to "Love one another" certainly outnumber the judgemental and hateful people who also take the label "Christian". I encourage everyone not to look at the worst case examples of Christianity, but to look at the best.

I know that when I first joined these forums I had a somewhat negative view of Calvinists. When I was a teenager our neighbors on both sides were Presbyterians. They were both arrogant and snobbish. I had a view of Presbyterians as rich, white, stiff, snobbish people. But now (I have to stop and get up my energy to actually say something nice about someone; it's not easy for me.) After meeting the Calvinists here like Dave, Andy and Brent; I have changed my mind. I now have a much greater respect for Calvinists due to the good example set by these fine people. I now see the best of the group and not the worst. (Now if we could just get them to get rid of that "predestination" nonsense.)

There are "Christians" who are enemies to the Gospel. But the true followers of Christ should always be known by their love.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

I now have a much greater respect for Calvinists due to the good example set by these fine people. I now see the best of the group and not the worst. (Now if we could just get them to get rid of that "predestination" nonsense.)



The irony is that even Calvin hated the notion of pre-destination. His problem was that he was trained as a lawyer and he had painted himself into a theological corner called pre-destination and had too much intellectual integrity to deny it.

But he mostly told people not to think too much about it.

[revtj]

After coming out in 1980, dropping my plans for becoming a Presbyterian minister, I was in my second year of seminary 14 years later before I would call my self 'christian' again. AIDS had certainly been a part of my reticence; that & the desire to explore everything 'heretical,' which rounded me out quite a bit theologically & personally...but mostly I was sick and tired of the 25 year old fight in my denomination (PCUSA) over gay ordination. I have no patience with that any longer!

I still prefer christian without a capital c.

Zerbie, do you read Anne Lamott?

[u-dog]

Zerbie, do you read Anne Lamott?


If you haven't you MUST!!! "Travelling Mercies" is a FANTASTIC book. How she wanders into a funky urban Presbyterian congregation and finds God and a lot of other stuff taboot. She is very very funny and filled with Grace. You would LOVE HER WRITING !!!:)

[Freespirited]

After a loooooooong absenty from this forum I am back!!


Zerbie I can relate to your disgust with christianity! I too

am quite tired of it! but there is something a bit more

disturbing to me, and that is of those who still struggle

to be gay and at the same time in longing to be or wanting

to remain being a christian!? I personally find this kind of

marriage of identities to be very degrating for one's self

confidence, integrity, and self respect!!



Leandro

[sailaway58]

Unlike U-Dog I have no idea who will be in heaven.
At nine years old it is hard to believe you had such a clear thought process on the subject.
Third grade for me was Weekly Readers and going to Cub Scouts.
I still relate to God the way I related to my father in my early years. I know he loves me but I am pretty much on my own. I believe, or say I believe, in a more personal Jesus but I tend to live out my faith in a more distant fashion.
There have been over the years and presently some great and loving Christians that believe orientation is a choice. Sometimes they may even say things that end up being hurtful. 20 years ago most of you would have wanted me in hell with that misinformed preacher. Gods grace has to be good enough for all of us.
So hate those that misunderstand you that wrong you, visualize them in hell…just like Jesus did.

[Daniel]

After coming out in 1980, dropping my plans for becoming a Presbyterian minister, I was in my second year of seminary 14 years later before I would call my self 'christian' again. AIDS had certainly been a part of my reticence; that & the desire to explore everything 'heretical,' which rounded me out quite a bit theologically & personally...but mostly I was sick and tired of the 25 year old fight in my denomination (PCUSA) over gay ordination. I have no patience with that any longer!

I still prefer christian without a capital c.


I like the way you put it. And I have found myself rumminating on the use of the big C here on the forum. In writing the word with the capital, I have been telling myself that I am being respectful to others, yet, in doing so, am I respecting myself? Perhaps not. I guess some balance is needed on my part. Interesting how such a small thing can say so much.

And then there's the matter of being rounded out. What a great way to put it! I think of myself of being rounded out too. All that heresy has done me a great deal of good.

But what I really want to say is....

I enjoy your posts immensely.

I too am quite tired of it! but there is something a bit more disturbing to me, and that is of those who still struggle to be gay and at the same time in longing to be or wanting
to remain being a christian!? I personally find this kind of marriage of identities to be very degrating for one's self confidence, integrity, and self respect!!

Who is stuggling with whom and what? That's what's interesting to me. The central figure of Christianity (ah....the capital rears it's head!) is Jesus. And he had nothing to say about gay people, though he may have, in fact, been loving towards a gay person. Remember the Centurion and his 'servant'?

I think Jesus is the touchstone for many gay people. And why not? The man certainly turned things upside down and inside out during his lifetime. His message of love is very compelling. And his Golden Rule embodies so much good- being treated with respect isn't a small thing. Finding the person and the message, and dividing that from the contemporary/political christianity (thought I'd try a little c and see how it feels!) isn't an easy feat: the people screaming the loudest about gay people reflect the line on the oft-quoted tee shirt: 'Jesus! Save Me From Your Followers!' But I think it is worth the effort for those who have the desire to do so. In fact, it may be an imperative. Are gay christians (ok....I'll stay with the lower case for now) going to let those who use the Big C define them? I hope not.

[u-dog]

Unlike U-Dog I have no idea who will be in heaven.


Sailaway, If you have a list of people you wanna know about just PM me and I'll highlight the ones who are going to heaven and just scratch out the ones who won't be. I always like to be helpful whenever I can!! ;)

[Emproph]

...let's just drain the gnosis out of the good ol' book entirely....shall we?
Oh God Daniel that’s perfect.

In fact, why not just pull the plug on gnosis altogether and watch it circle the drain?

Gnosis. Meaning, to know. Not believing, not having faith. To know and to see – for certain.

And we wonder why the gnostic gospels were chosen by men in a fallen state to be left out of the Biblical canon...

How do we know God isn’t all in our mind? And how do we communicate that to everyone else?

PS, not that you believe that Daniel, I'm just throwing it out there.

[BrentRichards]

I know that when I first joined these forums I had a somewhat negative view of Calvinists. When I was a teenager our neighbors on both sides were Presbyterians. They were both arrogant and snobbish. I had a view of Presbyterians as rich, white, stiff, snobbish people. But now (I have to stop and get up my energy to actually say something nice about someone; it's not easy for me.) After meeting the Calvinists here like Dave, Andy and Brent; I have changed my mind. I now have a much greater respect for Calvinists due to the good example set by these fine people. I now see the best of the group and not the worst. (Now if we could just get them to get rid of that "predestination" nonsense.)


Actually, we're just as mean, nasty, and snobbish as the rest of the "frozen chosen." We just hide it well. [grin]

[dsdrane]

Hey, hey!

I resemble that remark!

:whistleblower:

[BrentRichards]

But you're a whiskey-palian, not a calvinist!

[dsdrane]

Well...we're the Frozen Chosen...and, just remember:

ice is a mixer.

:cool::rolleyes:

[keltic63]

Well...we're the Frozen Chosen...and, just remember:

ice is a mixer.

:cool::rolleyes:

First Church of the Frigidaire???

[Zerbie]

At nine years old it is hard to believe you had such a clear thought process on the subject.

What does a number have to do with connecting to God?

Third grade for me was Weekly Readers and going to Cub Scouts.
I still relate to God the way I related to my father in my early years. I know he loves me but I am pretty much on my own. I believe, or say I believe, in a more personal Jesus but I tend to live out my faith in a more distant fashion.
There have been over the years and presently some great and loving Christians that believe orientation is a choice. Sometimes they may even say things that end up being hurtful. 20 years ago most of you would have wanted me in hell with that misinformed preacher. Gods grace has to be good enough for all of us.
So hate those that misunderstand you that wrong you, visualize them in hell…just like Jesus did.

Thank you for that reminder. I think we all forget things like that from time to time. We often wind up fighting against people who, a few years ago, might have been ourselves. Might as well be, in fact.

We need to learn to see with a perspective that is broader in time - to who we were once long ago, and who we might be in the future. Someone we are fighting today might turn around to be a staunch ally 10 years from now. And consider, this entire Soulforce organization was founded by a man who spent something close to 40 years of his life living in a sort of "ex-gay" denial - and look how Mel turned out. :love:

I don't understand your last line, Sailor, except that I feel you being angry or hurt. Visualize people in hell???? That is horrific. Did you get that from my bringing up this entire subject? I apologize if I hurt you. :(

I don't like the fact that I posted such a negative story. Maybe I should have continued keeping it to myself.

[u-dog]

Zerbie! That is ia powerful story! The negativity had nothing to do with you!

I believe that sailaway is making reference to something that I said, so perhaps I should clarify.

I suggested that you would be standing before the throne and would recognize the lamb of God when you saw him. and that the Lamb would recognize you and that you would know that you had known him all along.

In the process I suggested that the Misinformed (not to mention brutally warped and hate twisted) "minister" would be no where in attendance.

I need to be clear that

1. I don't WANT him to be in Hell (if there even IS such a place)
2. I don't fantasize him being in Hell but

IF he still believes as he did in Zerbie's youth and is still saying such things and IF Hell is "separation from God" then HE IS IN HELL and WILL BE IN HELL until such time as he understands that his beliefs have nothing to do with God.

If there is such a thing as damnation (and I am not at all certain that there is) it is NOT a punishment... it is a consequence.

If there IS such a thing as salvation (and I am totally convinced that there is) it is NOT a reward ... it is a consequence of being open to the presence of God.

I have seen that openess in Zerbie a hundred times as she has dealt graciously with the hurt, wounded people who come to this forum and also as she has dealt with the arrogant and hatefilled who sometimes come here too.

I offer these couple of texts in support of my convictions:

Matthew 7:1-5 "judge not lest you be judged
Matthew 7: 15-19 "beware of false prophets ... you can judge a tree by its fruits"
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me "lord lord" will enter the Kingdom"
Mattew 25:41-46 "When you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for me"


PEOPLE are NOT just "hurt" by actions like these by so called Christians ... THEY DIE. Children and young people... beautiful, perfect children of God DIE BECAUSE MONSTERS LIKE THE ONE ZERBIE DESCRIBES spew this poison!!

But the CRIMES they commit against children and youth are only the HALF of it. They also Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by encouraging people to believe that this FILTH has anything to do with the Love of God and Gospel of Jesus Christ. :mad:

Ok... so.... I'm pretty mad. Take a deep breath there Dave! Whew! Breathe it out!

[Zerbie]

Zerbie! That is ia powerful story! The negativity had nothing to do with you!

I'm not so sure now that spewing it over the internet isn't just adding to its negativity by perpetuating it. But I thank you for the support as I struggle with this. :love:

.

If there is such a thing as damnation (and I am not at all certain that there is) it is NOT a punishment... it is a consequence.

If there IS such a thing as salvation (and I am totally convinced that there is) it is NOT a reward ... it is a consequence of being open to the presence of God.

Dave, you sound like a yogi right there.


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me "lord lord" will enter the Kingdom"

Great lesson for us all in that one. I love that one.
Mattew 25:41-46 "When you did it not for the least of these, you did it not for me"

But this one is my favorite. It's also the hardest to remember.


But the CRIMES they commit against children and youth are only the HALF of it. They also Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by encouraging people to believe that this FILTH has anything to do with the Love of God and Gospel of Jesus Christ. :mad:

That is what horrified me through the core of my being. It is why I have always refused to have anything to do with christianity. I thought that this was its nature.

Ok... so.... I'm pretty mad. Take a deep breath there Dave! Whew! Breathe it out!

Let's try not to be angry. If we are angry we will only make ourselves feel worse.

I am trying really hard to let go of that old definition of what christianity is - it's just hard when people say and do things in the name of Jesus that only reinforce that first traumatic impression.

[BrentRichards]

Dave is Yogi? See, I asked about that Yogi and BooBoo thing ...

[wmanion]

Zerbie,
Your story needed sharing because it shows your heart and how you feel. I, do not call or classify myself as christian. It is a label and I am not Christ-like in anyway. I cannot live up to that standard no matter how hard I try and the closer I get, the farther away I know I am. I am just a person who believes there is a God and we all have purpose.
Unknowing at the age of nine you had all ready mastered one of he first concepts in the Bible. One that Jesus reinforced with love thy neighbor, love one another, and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That concept that you mastered was brought forth in the Cain and Able story. Am I my brother's keeper?
We are responsible for each other, it is our responsibility to care, to love, to treat each other with respect. We are suppose to help the less fortunate and by you continuing with your activism despite the promise you didn't intend to keep what you were actually saying to your friend was..."you are worth something, you are worth something to me and as long as those people exist in the world that make you feel like you are nothing...I will not be silent...because of my love."
I admire you greatly. and I know that you will always strive to make a difference. I know I kind of combined two threads here and I apologize.

Hugz,
Bill

[sailaway58]

Zerbie,
I have no problem with your story, I threw a dig to U-Dog because I thought he could handle it, and he did.
Really, thanks for sharing your story.

[sailaway58]

Sailaway, If you have a list of people you wanna know about just PM me and I'll highlight the ones who are going to heaven and just scratch out the ones who won't be. I always like to be helpful whenever I can!! ;)

I'm working on the list, better keep it PM though:lol:

[u-dog]

Dave is Yogi? See, I asked about that Yogi and BooBoo thing ...


I've seen your picture boy! If I'm Yogi ... you're Booboo!:lol:

[Zerbie]

If you haven't you MUST!!! "Travelling Mercies" is a FANTASTIC book. How she wanders into a funky urban Presbyterian congregation and finds God and a lot of other stuff taboot. She is very very funny and filled with Grace. You would LOVE HER WRITING !!!:)

Nearly lost sight of this with all the furor going on around it.

No, I haven't heard of the author. Is it fiction? Fiction sort of isn't my thing, I haven't much patience fo invented stories. Non-fiction, otoh, tends to hold my attention better.

[Zerbie]

I'm glad I haven't done something wrong by telling all this. I was afraid I had.

Zerbie,
Your story needed sharing because it shows your heart and how you feel. I, do not call or classify myself as christian. It is a label and I am not Christ-like in anyway. I cannot live up to that standard no matter how hard I try and the closer I get, the farther away I know I am.

That's how I feel too!! Every time something inside me changes so I can be a better person, I see the road to "there" appearing even longer and more full of boulders. . . :o

We are responsible for each other, it is our responsibility to care, to love, to treat each other with respect. We are suppose to help the less fortunate


Yes! You are right! Your story on the other thread about the young man you helped blew my mind apart. I simply haven't got it in me to do that - I read it and kept thinking, "but I can barely take the slightest care of myself, how is it this amazing man can take care of an entire family AND a traumatized newcomer?" :good:

and by you continuing with your activism despite the promise you didn't intend to keep what you were actually saying to your friend was..."you are worth something, you are worth something to me and as long as those people exist in the world that make you feel like you are nothing...I will not be silent...because of my love."

Hugz,
Bill

Hugs! :love:

Finally figured out what you were referring to: the mentor who made me promise not to "throw away" my life with gay activism because people like him (gay people) "aren't worth it." All the while I was thinking "Of course you are, of course you are," so why couldn't I say it then? Well, he scared me. But what you've written above is nearly verbatim what I wrote in my diary that night. I valued him too much to stop speaking out for his fair treatment, even if he didn't think I should. It broke my heart to see such a good person speaking of himself that way. Other people taught him he wasn't worth it. :'(

Zerbie,
I have no problem with your story, I threw a dig to U-Dog because I thought he could handle it, and he did.
Really, thanks for sharing your story.

I'm glad I didn't upset you! Thanks, Sailor. :cool:

[antonyh]

Since Antony asked.

I was not taken to churches as a small child. That is why the following incident relates my first and formative encounter with christianity.

I guess I was about 9 or so. The news was wrapping up on TV and I caught some of the talk about AIDS; it was my first time hearing about it. It was really obvious from the way the newscasters were speaking that it was considered an outsider's disease and that no one was expected to care because the disease "only affects homosexual men." I was horrified to discover the attitude among my fellow Americans that gay men should be left to die, and was on the verge of full-blown moral panic when a "christian leader" was interviewed.

As soon as they announced a religious leader would address the television audience, I completely relaxed again in my unshakeable faith that any spiritual leader will instruct the public that, whether we like someone or not, it's our spiritual duty to provide the life-saving care that is needed. With complete assurance I waited for him to say so. He began speaking about god and christianity, and to my everlasting horror he told the world that the disease was god's punishment to men for being homosexual.

I fell off the furniture in a screaming fit, calling for my parents and screaming "The reverend is a murderer! The reverend is a murderer!" When my mom got to me and discovered the source of my distress, she affirmed that homosexuals were getting exactly what they deserved. I begged her to try to save lives, but she looked at me like my face was rotting off and covered in maggots. Then she backed me into a corner and slapped me in the face repeatedly while screaming that homosexuals are sick and deserve to die and that I should never speak to anyone about the subject again.

Later that night I packed a bag, in case my parents asked me to leave the house (I underestimated their capacity for ignoring obvious crises for extended periods of time). I felt my parents oblivious to my existence, and I was morally horrified of them for condoning what the christian leader said. That night, I mentally severed all ties to my biological family.

Ultimately, that entire experience came to define christianity to me.
The genocidal language from the christian leader was horrifying enough. And genocide is one of the first things I think of when I hear the word "Christian."

But far, far worse was the denial of the nature of God -- lying to claim God a hate-filled monster. To do that to the indescribable Eternal Lord - - - - there are no words strong enough to tell how wrong that is. That blasphemy became the essence of what I understand Christianity to mean.

That is a powerful story Zerbie. Thank you for sharing it. I can understand how you came to feel the way you did about Christianity. I used to really love Christianity until I came out and then when the consequences of that decision rolled in, I too understood the dangers of the faith.

[u-dog]

Nearly lost sight of this with all the furor going on around it.

No, I haven't heard of the author. Is it fiction? Fiction sort of isn't my thing, I haven't much patience fo invented stories. Non-fiction, otoh, tends to hold my attention better.

No, she writes about her own experience in a very light and delightful way. YOU WILL LOVE HER WRITING. No question in my mind. Anne Lamont might be your long lost sister.

[ladyinred]

Zerbie I don't blame you for your reaction, actually my mother would have the opposite reaction she would have been hostile to such people who called themselves Christians and told them to go to hell, when they tried to scare me as a child with hellfire and damnation, she was like a protective mother bear of her cub, she told them to stay away from me..

Your mother I'm sorry was wrong, think about the 12+million children who are orphaned in Africa,because of aids, did they deserve punnishment from God ? I've always said if aids was a gay disease the only gays would get it ,meaning that heterosexuals would be immune, which is obviously not the case. I've tried to let people see that like any disease, like cancer, or even getting stds , these diseases do not discriminate , anyone can get them. I wanted to show people that aids as a homosexual stigma was unjustified. And I've read about it quite a bit.

The preachers who are spewing hate and venom are not only liars, they leave people with the false and illusory idea that only gays get aids. What does that mean to some young heterosexual kid who doesn't know any better, decides he's immune and gets it? Who get hurt by their lies ?Everyone. Obviously over 12 million children can't be to blame for losing their families and homes and left orphaned. What kind of God would that be if we said those innocent children were incurring his wrath? The real monsters are the people who believe these hate filled preachers and take in their every word as if it came from God.

[Zerbie]

Actually, Lady, my mother's first words to me when she discovered me in a panic that night were, "Don't worry Zerbie, AIDS won't happen to you. Only bad people get it." I looked at her like she was off her rocker (my mom is highly educated and used to be quite liberal when I was a tot,) and then just broke down in tears. That was when she looked at me like I was maggoty and asked, "Oh -God! No! You're not - - - crying for the homosexuals - - - are you?!?!"

Oh what an awful evening.

It took her another decade-plus, but she got beyond that. In fact, a few months ago I told her about a new gay-rights project I'm involved with, and I practically fell off my chair when she replied with, "That sounds like quite a big project. Good luck! Let me know how it goes." (sound of a thud as Zerbie strikes the floor)

Given time - and *willingness* (willingness is key) - we all grow.

[Daniel]

That is a powerful story Zerbie. Thank you for sharing it. I can understand how you came to feel the way you did about Christianity. I used to really love Christianity until I came out and then when the consequences of that decision rolled in, I too understood the dangers of the faith.

Could you elaborate a bit further? What dangers?

[Zerbie]

Could you elaborate a bit further? What dangers?

Ya know? I don't how having faith in God could ever lead to a danger of thinking like Reverend Letthefaggotsdie.

I DO see that spending lots of time around people who think that way can become toxic. Thanks to that one evening, I spent all of my teens thinking something was wrong with me because I failed to want homosexuals dead.

[Steven E. Webster]

Zerbie,

In an ironic way, it seems to me like your rejection of Christianity--for very good reasons---is evidence of God's grace. Not to diminish one bit that it is evidence of the goodness at the heart of Zerbie.

I'm thankful for you Zerbie!

Steven Webster

[BrentRichards]

I've seen your picture boy! If I'm Yogi ... you're Booboo!:lol:

Dave, are you hitting on me? :p

And I'll add my two cents ... Zerbie, this is an important discussion, not at all an offensive one. I once read a book called Exit Interviews in which a series of people told their stories about why they left the church ... I started reading it with the expectation of criticizing the "leavers" for what I anticipated would be selfish or petty reasons for leaving. But the more I read, the madder I got at how STUPID we in the church can be, and how HORRIBLY we can treat people, all in the name of "truth." Another poignant book title asks, Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded? Those who have left, and those of us who have stayed, all need to be continually challenged on how we love and show God's love.

[u-dog]

Dave, are you hitting on me? :p



Yogi and Booboo are NOT GAY!! :eek:

[sailaway58]

Yogi and Booboo are NOT GAY!! :eek:
Thank God ;)

[missmari]

all your stories are touching and I definitely sympathize with you Zerbie...my parents have the same way of thinking as yours, and it's sad....

I think like it has been stated before, religion today has definitely been stripped of its original purpose and meaning...and has lost its origiinal sense of function...that's not how christianity works...Christianity speaks of love thy neighbor, love thy enemies, love love love...and most of the christianity we see today, unfortunately, is so prejudging, prejudice, and incredulous...

as for the girl that came out as a lesbian and accepted her life and comitted herself to her lover, I want to follow in your footsteps!!! I am still stuck in a tough situation here...but you're right, I've stopped trying, because I too have begged God to help me stop, and sometimes you realize, you know what, it's not something to be afraid about...

I hope Zerbie that you meet wonderful Christian people in your life that will eventually demonstrate what Christianity is REALLY about, and how it should REALLY be portrayed...

Blessings to you all...

[ladyinred]

Zerbie I remember in my teens accepting my friend who was gay and thinking ,should I do this? It was natural but it was like I'd have second thoughts about whether I should do that? Must have been a shocker when your mother reacted the way she did when you were talking about your project,but somehow even if our parents do change, there are still those childhood memories. I can understand your negative reactions to Christianity especially with your early experiences. I think I can understand why some people turn atheists when they listen to so much negativity from the pulpit. I got mad at a guy for telling off an atheist and said," You drove them from the church!" I often feel that way about churches today,I haven't stepped in one for quite awhile.I'm almost afraid I'll pick up on the poison. I guess when you see bad examples of Christians behaving badly , you tend to lump them all as the same. Or it tends to color your perceptions of Christianity.

[Emproph]

Zerbie, there's so much here, and so many tid bits that I wanted to comment on that I'll never be able to get to, but most importantly I want you to know how moved I was by your story and that I appreciate your sharing it. :love:

For as short and easy a read as that was, it was profoundly powerful. Thank you.

-Patrick

[u-dog]

I hope Zerbie that you meet wonderful Christian people in your life that will eventually demonstrate what Christianity is REALLY about, and how it should REALLY be portrayed...

Blessings to you all...


She already has !!!! US !!! :cool:

[Zerbie]

Well, it was already a loaded subject before then. . . before I start, Emp, glad you "enjoyed" reading it - that screamfest was always the scene that played before my eyes when I said I was an atheist, for years and years. I expected everyone else to magically know that was why, because I assumed monstrous hatred and blasphemy was what EVERYONE saw in christianity. Therefore, anyone who was christian was *choosing* monstrousness. I guess I was too young to understand that one preacher did not speak for all, and by the time I was old enough, my assumptions had rigidified to defend me from the painful emotion. Feel free to toss some of your reactions out there without trying to perfect them - gut responses always welcome, darlin' E.

As for it being a loaded subject already:
My parents refused to take me to church when I was little because they had had experiences that they didn't like. Neither has gone to church since I was born except for weddings, etc. When I was small, I was always begging to go - there was a Catholic church barely 5 houses down the road and I would see people going and coming - and BEG to be taken to Sunday school and to the class thing on Weds afternoons. I was refused with the explanation that nuns were terrible people who would hurt me. When my dad was offered a job somewhere in the south I wanted him to take it but he declined on the basis that people who live in the south are terrible people because they expect their neighbors to go to church. I used to think: what can possibly be bad about church??

Then I saw that reverend on TV.

I went to Catholic services 3 times when my dad's (Roman Catholic) parents babysat and made me go with them, and was way too young to have any idea what was going on (like, 3, 4, 5). My main recollection was a sheer panic because I didn't know the "songs" (hymns) :eek: and why was I unprepared when everyone else knew the music? (early signs of budding musical professionalism?):p

Other than that, I checked out a Presbyterian church once, a year or so after the TV incident, shortly before I decided to claim atheism. Had to work on my mom for months to get her to take me. The pastor, or whatever you call him, just talked about the social importance of having a church and I thought, how retarded. That has everything to do with the neighbors and nothing to do with God. It seemed obvious one would never learn to know God in a church, but the opposite happening in church seemed pretty well guaranteed.

Never went back to one until 2 years ago when I met a UCC pastor at a gay-oriented symposium and was blown away that a christian could have any kindness in him. After the symposium I went up to him and said, "But how can you know anything about love? You're a christian." A few days later I visited his church, had a pleasant time, but didn't feel any call to return. Another month or two later I discovered this Soulforce forum and met y'all. :love::love::love::love::love::love: I don't regret avoiding churches, I'm glad I did. But I would be awfully lonely without you. :love:

[ladyinred]

Zerbie, I personally have studied some of the Course in miracles which is based on Christianity but not fundamantalism,I've also looked into alternate spirituality .I'm just too turned off by fundamentalist Christianity. I've read books like God without religion, The laughing Jesus, have books on buddhism, sufism, and have also done innerbonding and am currently reading the "Dance of wounded souls. " My path has had to be one that focuses on healing because I have many childhood issues, especially with my dad being drunk and abusive. I could not turn to a traditional church for that because it would not help me in my own journey. I read alot of self help because it helps me.

I have friends who have been Wiccan, moslem, and buddhist. I do not want that mindset that condemns other people for their beliefs to going to hell,I think that is unloving. But at one time I guess I was pursuing religion. Not anymore,I'm more striving to heal old emotional wounds from childhood and dealing with life and spirituality as a process of growth. Why I am reading the dance is it deals with codependency and also spirituality in saying we are all one. Because of painful incidences in childhood I have to deal with that on an ongoing basis and challenge the status quo and old beliefs. What the dance says about bigotry such as that directed toward gay people is people need someone to look down on because it strokes their own egos. They have a need to feel superior or to see others as less than because they have no sense of balance and self esteem themselves. they cannot conceive of people being essentially equal and having inherent worth and being part of the divine that God created in his love. Because they have no concept of God being love.Nor can they conceive of divine love because the ego is antithetical to it. The lauging Jesus deals with gnosticism as opposed to literalism It does not treat the bible as the inerrant and infallible word of God.For example the old testament it says reflects the tribal god of the hasmonian jewsand their then nationalistic agenda. It does not even deal with the bible as a literal and historical book,it sees it more as allegorical.

Christianity from a gnostic perspective means we are all one and are part of the divine and of love, and that love is the only reality there is. I've read some of the lost gospels of Nag Hammadi as well as Jesus in India and some of the Tibetian gospels.Sadly in many ways it is religion that divides us. We've seen historically how religion has helped inspire inquisitions and wars and bloodshed and suffering.Is all religion all bad? No. Even the bible has beauty and inspiration in it. but what the authors of the laughing Jesus are suggesting is that we wake up to our own path to the truth within.We do not find it in externals; religion for example , but the indwelling spirit leads us .What I am learning Zerbie,nothing outside us can determine our worth,not even how others treat us. You have worth as a human being for just being alive and being you. Love is something we do not earn the right to have it is the essence of our beings.What brings you joy is unique to you.Follow your own path, your own truth within.Allow no one to sway you or convince you you are wrong.Always remember "you are the light of the world."

[pnggrad79]

Zerbie,
I remember when I was struggling with my lesbianism and I was on AOL at the time in a chat room. There was a guy whose screen name was homosexua
(no L at the end). So we got to talking and I, being a lesbian homophobe, (total paradox, but I hadn't come out to myself, yet. Still begging God to change me) began to preach to this poor guy. I quoted Scripture to him, I urged him to give up his aberrant lifestyle or he would get AIDS, which I was sure was God's punishment on gay people. He wrote me back and said he no longer would consider me a friend, and banned me from his chat room. It was at that moment that I was struck with the hypocrisy that I purveyed on this guy. I immediately prayed and asked forgiveness for being judgemental, and critical and God showed me that there were a few things about myself I needed to look at before bashing anyone else. Not 3 years later, I came out to myself, divorced my husband, and moved in with my girlfriend, who became my wife in 2004.
There is no question that religion harms but God loves. And people try to lump God into their religion, when He really has nothing to do with it. It is just religion and a hollow shell of something God really wants to show us, but we keep getting in the way.
Bless you Zerbie and you will always be my friend.:)

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,
I remember when I was struggling with my lesbianism and I was on AOL at the time in a chat room. There was a guy whose screen name was homosexua
(no L at the end). So we got to talking and I, being a lesbian homophobe, (total paradox, but I hadn't come out to myself, yet. Still begging God to change me) began to preach to this poor guy. I quoted Scripture to him, I urged him to give up his aberrant lifestyle or he would get AIDS, which I was sure was God's punishment on gay people. He wrote me back and said he no longer would consider me a friend, and banned me from his chat room. It was at that moment that I was struck with the hypocrisy that I purveyed on this guy. I immediately prayed and asked forgiveness for being judgemental, and critical and God showed me that there were a few things about myself I needed to look at before bashing anyone else.

Bless you Zerbie and you will always be my friend.:)

You too, PNG. :love::love::love:

That story is amazing!! I remember you mentioning this guy before: what I didn't know was that interaction with him was such a powerful catalyst - and that you - omigoodness! - faced yourself, the negativity you were taught, the internal homophobia - after he told you that you'd hurt him. That's just - incredible! Such a blessing in every way, because you found your way out. What a relief for you to finally get to the other side of that journey! Bless you for having had the courage to face it!

LadyRed, thanks for your words of friendship. :) Best wishes to you as you heal from the past. A remarkable undertaking, and one that is infinitely worth it.

[ladyinred]

Zerbie you have wonderful qualities and sensitivity, you are upbeat ,supportive and it seems protective of those you care about, even the friends you have here. If you weren't kind hearted,I'd definitely have second thoughts about you. But you don't fit a mold of someone elses expectations. So when someone says "fags deserve to die." You have the compassion not to chime in and agree with them. There is nothing wrong with you. Look at it this way, "At least you aren't attracting bad karma to your self." LOL;) You can look back with no regrets and say,"Hey I give a damn about other people and what happens to them."

[Zerbie]

Zerbie you have wonderful qualities and sensitivity, you are upbeat ,supportive and it seems protective of those you care about, even the friends you have here. If you weren't kind hearted,I'd definitely have second thoughts about you.


:confused:I'm sorry. Is it because I said I'm not christian?


. There is nothing wrong with you.

Oh Lady, sweetie!! :):love: I know that! I was sharing how I felt when I was about 10, through much of my teens. Because I was the only one not joining in on gay jokes and homophobic rants. I thought my silence was radical, and giving me away. :rolleyes:

I stopped feeling like I was wrong when the awesome boy who was my best friend when we were 15 called me up after an episode of verbal gay-bashing where we were both present but silent, and told me how much it bothered him to see people treating that gay man the way they were. I saw then that WE were right all along. I had been DYING to say something to stop it, but kept thinking, "I can't! :'( I'm not allowed!!:'(" He had wanted to say something too. We made a pact to always say something from then on, and back each other up. And if the other wasn't there, we would say something anyway, and call the other for support later.

Look at it this way, "At least you aren't attracting bad karma to your self." LOL;) ."

:D I'm workin' on the karma thing, believe me!!! :agree:

[ladyinred]

I'm not saying that because you are not a Christian, nor am I implying that there aren't Christians who aren't sincere and wonderful people. That would be totally unfair to people here who are devoted Christians .

[Zerbie]

I'm not saying that because you are not a Christian, nor am I implying that there aren't Christians who aren't sincere and wonderful people. That would be totally unfair to people here who are devoted Christians .

I meant, why would you have "second thoughts" about me? I wondered what I said wrong.

[ladyinred]

I personally like to be exposed to different spiritualities,I even have a friend who is wiccan,And I'm personally not anti-christian. I do however have a problem with fundamentalists because many times of their narrow view of Christianity. But even with that perspective I cannot lump all evangelicals in the same mold as with the likes of Dobson or Robertson. I personally from what I know of her ,like Joyce Meyers. And I subscribe to sojourners website and email, they are more progressive Christians and I have studied alternate Christianity from Gnostism, the course in miracles to the tibetian gospels on Christ. But I don't consider myself Christian per se ,For some reason I have a problem with the label. Perhaps I see it as standing in the way with identifying with other people of other faiths or even those who are agnostic or atheist.

[ladyinred]

"I fell off the furniture in a screaming fit, calling for my parents and screaming "The reverend is a murderer! The reverend is a murderer!" When my mom got to me and discovered the source of my distress, she affirmed that homosexuals were getting exactly what they deserved. I begged her to try to save lives, but she looked at me like my face was rotting off and covered in maggots. Then she backed me into a corner and slapped me in the face repeatedly while screaming that homosexuals are sick and deserve to die and that I should never speak to anyone about the subject again. "

I too would find these statements appalling especially with what we now know about aids, that gay men aren't the only ones who get it and even babys can get it through their mother. But you have to realize what was being said was pretty twisted and distorted, plenty of people gay or straight can get any sexual disease including aids and yes it should be everyone's concern. If aids is a punnishment then cancer, heart attacks and strokes,leukemia, should be seen in the same light, what about children being born with disabilities?

Do you see the stupidity of such assumptions? Does this not say there should be compassion in any case? Would we punnish someone with cancer or heart disease? Of course not. What about the alarming number of teens who are getting stds.Should they be punnished? All I can say about the reverend he better pray he never comes down with any illness or disease because according to his assessment and judgments, it would have to be God's punnishment.

[Progo35]

Hey, Zerbie,

I would just like to say that I've been a relatively "fundamental" Christian for quite some time now, and I have never, once thought like pastor 'letthegaysdie,' and have, in fact, remained POed about such statements throughout my life, regardless of what I may or may not have felt compelled to mantain in terms of my Biblical beliefs-for the simple reason that it violates everything that Christ taught. I'm not saying that being gay is a sin, but even if it were, the Church would still be responsible for reaching out to everyone who is afflicted with AIDS. Frankly, I don't understand who Christian theologians can say that we shouldn't help AIDS sufferers with a straight face. And, as LadyinRed said above, AIDS is an extremely severe epidemic that impacts all sorts of people.

Actually, I recently heard that AIDS was spread to the human race because someone was practicing bestiality with a monkey and that they then spread it to somoene else. Statistically, I do think that the gay community has a higher incidence of AIDS, but given the situation the gay community is in, it is not surprising any more than it is surprising that people with disabilities have a higher incidence of depression than the rest of the population.What I mean is that if people are feeling ashamed when they are having sex, this doesn't help reinforce the ethic of preventing STIS-this requires self respect. Moreover, there have been reports of some gay couples getting high on meth to have sex because they are so ashamed-of course, I did hear this on law and order, but it sounds credible. Finally, I think that not being allowed to get maried encourages gay individuals not to committ to one partner, and the more partners someone has, even if this is not a regular occurance, the more likely it is that they will contract AIDS or something else. FInally, this is a very personal/technical topic, but I'm not sure that the forms of protection on the market are necesarily designed for gay intercourse-I'm not sure that they would be as effective depending on the bodily contact involved. Of couse, I can't say that firsthand, but I was just thinking about that as I was reading through the forum-maybe protection needs to be improved so that it works with the same effectiveness in both straight and gay sex.

[ladyinred]

Zerbie you didn't say anything wrong. I was just pointing out the qualities I've seen in you by reading your posts.You still have a innocent child-like quality. Not a mean body in your body.When I say child-like I don't mean childish or naive,but we see how children relate to the world, from their hearts.

[Progo35]

I second Lady in Red's post.

[Daniel]

Hey, Zerbie,

I would just like to say that I've been a relatively "fundamental" Christian for quite some time now, and I have never, once thought like pastor 'letthegaysdie,' and have, in fact, remained POed about such statements throughout my life, regardless of what I may or may not have felt compelled to mantain in terms of my Biblical beliefs-for the simple reason that it violates everything that Christ taught. I'm not saying that being gay is a sin, but even if it were, the Church would still be responsible for reaching out to everyone who is afflicted with AIDS. Frankly, I don't understand who Christian theologians can say that we shouldn't help AIDS sufferers with a straight face. And, as LadyinRed said above, AIDS is an extremely severe epidemic that impacts all sorts of people.

Actually, I recently heard that AIDS was spread to the human race because someone was practicing bestiality with a monkey and that they then spread it to somoene else. Statistically, I do think that the gay community has a higher incidence of AIDS, but given the situation the gay community is in, it is not surprising any more than it is surprising that people with disabilities have a higher incidence of depression than the rest of the population.What I mean is that if people are feeling ashamed when they are having sex, this doesn't help reinforce the ethic of preventing STIS-this requires self respect. Moreover, there have been reports of some gay couples getting high on meth to have sex because they are so ashamed-of course, I did hear this on law and order, but it sounds credible. Finally, I think that not being allowed to get maried encourages gay individuals not to committ to one partner, and the more partners someone has, even if this is not a regular occurance, the more likely it is that they will contract AIDS or something else. FInally, this is a very personal/technical topic, but I'm not sure that the forms of protection on the market are necesarily designed for gay intercourse-I'm not sure that they would be as effective depending on the bodily contact involved. Of couse, I can't say that firsthand, but I was just thinking about that as I was reading through the forum-maybe protection needs to be improved so that it works with the same effectiveness in both straight and gay sex.


Dear Progo,

Sweetie- May I enlighten you a bit on some of the things you mention? The passages in read caught me attention.

1) Africa. More people are dying of AIDS there than anywhere else. Guess what? Most, if not the MAJORITY of them are straight. And the rumor of how AIDS was first transmitted to humans is conjecture. And the inuendo in the story you heard has distinct homophobic overtones. It is far more probable that animal to human contact occurred because the animal was eaten by a human.

2) Condoms work whether one is gay or straight. Gay people don't need 'better' ones. The point is that one has to know HOW to use one regardless of one's sexuality. Straight people aren't any better at this than gay people. It takes education. And in case you didn't know, there is a condom for women.

I encourage you learn more about condom use from a health professional- getting the facts about such things on Law and Order is..well...questionable. It's entertainment, not science.

Are we straight now? ;)

[Progo35]

hmmm...yes, I think both should be researched, not gotten from L and O. Of course, I don't think that being gay itself predisposes people to AIDS...for instance, I'm not saying, or not intending to say, that gay individuals are less responsible about sex than straight people..I just think that in America, rather than world wide, the gay community may be at a higher risk of AIDS because of the circumstances I mentioned, but, of course, I hope I'm wrong.

Yes, we're 'straight' :). Thanks for chiming in!

[Daniel]

hmmm...yes, I think both should be researched, not gotten from L and O. Of course, I don't think that being gay itself predisposes people to AIDS...for instance, I'm not saying, or not intending to say, that gay individuals are less responsible about sex than straight people..I just think that in America, rather than world wide, the gay community may be at a higher risk of AIDS because of the circumstances I mentioned, but, of course, I hope I'm wrong.


What 'circumstances'?

The fact is gay men get high on meth because it enhances sexual feelings, not because they are filled with shame. And yes- meth is addictive. It was first used in rural areas by truckers to keep themselves awake. That's facts, not Law and Order. And yes- the use of meth can impair one's judgment and lead one to engage in risky sexual practices. This would include anal sex without a condom.

Being able to be married is a whole other matter. Your make it sound as though gay people wouldn't engage in risky sex if they were able to be married. Not so.

Straight couples engage in 'risky' sex all the time. It's called getting pregnant. Marriage doesn't minimize this risk one bit.

The fact is that sex is, by it's very nature, risky business. That's why a sex educator will tell you that when you sleep with someone, you are sleeping with everyone that person has slept with. The point is to make informed decisions so that one does not bring harm to another person- or allow that person to bring harm to one.

[ladyinred]

Daniel you are right we don't have exact medical science ,I've read that possibly aids was manufactured in a lab and unwittingly unleashed on humans, and other things. the thing is people often associate aids with being gay. I have tried to separate this disease from stigma with LGBT people, because the facts are facts it is not a homosexual disease, if it was as I said before only homosexuals would get it and heterosexuals would be immune, this is not the case, 12+ million orphans in Africa due to their parents being exposed to the virus would show in effect that an overwhelming number of heterosexuals have contracted it. Often we can speculate on orgins.

Again I've read different things. I think this disease has been used to stigmatize and punnish gays, primarily by Christian fundamnetalists who couldn't see reality if it hit them in the butt. Not only are they distorting the facts when they say aids is a gay man's disease they are spreading false information that could hurt heterosexuals as well. Why in the early 80's it came to attention is gay men were getting aids and it was brought to the medias attention.I'd even heard when I was younger that aids came here from Haiti. The first ever I'd read about it , was a woman had contracted it through her husband.But instead of sitting on their thumbs many in the LGBT community have educated and made others aware of how dangerous aids is and many started cleaning up their act and became more cautious and careful in their sexual practices. Aids had also become epidemic among black women.

So this thing is a big mystery when it comes to speculating about the orgins. All those in the religious right want to do is paint gay men as bad guys and say it is a punnishment from God while twisting and distorting the facts which could in effect save many more lives. I remember someone saying something to the effect that gays are aids carriers, the guy was one of those types who believed NARTH and Cameron. I told him to explain the epidemic in Africa and other countries. It is surprising how much people will believe bullshit without investigating further. Or even questioning the information that they are given. Aids is a tragedy yes, but it is a tragedy that has not only affected gay men but many others. If anything the religious right has divided many in this country and instead of coming together to seek honest solutions to the problems they spread more of their hate and misinformation like a cancer. Instead of being part of the solution they only add to more of the problems. Something goes wrong blame it on the gays, they are convenient targets, and why not while we are at it blame them for the break up of marriages, families falling apart, decay in our society, and even the twin towers. SICK,SICK,SICK, and dishonest. No one wants to take personal responsibility, instead dump it on a convenient target and make them look bad. If these people had any moral integrity, they would be more honest and realize that gays don't break up their marriages or families or cause divorces or even terrorist attacks. They have no integrity in my mind because they lie and deceive and twist the truth to achieve their ends. Call them religious if you want. But they are not honest or even moral in my mind. Anytime someone needs a scapegoat to blame things on they can never be that honest or moral or trustworthy even if they call themselves a Christian.. I don't care if their name is Dobson or Robertson and their name carries clout , they are still dishonest and morally bankrupt, their hate is like a disease in that it twists and distorts things out of character..

[Zerbie]

Zerbie you didn't say anything wrong. I was just pointing out the qualities I've seen in you by reading your posts.You still have a innocent child-like quality. Not a mean body in your body.When I say child-like I don't mean childish or naive,but we see how children relate to the world, from their hearts.

I second Lady in Red's post.

Wow. . . :odidn't know that. . . .:o :love::love::flower::dove:

:love::love::pray::earth::dove:

[ladyinred]

People can rally around their demogogues to stir up the flames of hatred , fear ,prejudice and mistrust, if they think that is what will make them feel better. Then people can become dangerously self righteous. But it won't absolve them of their own imperfections and human failings either, nor will it address and solve the issues and problems our society is facing. Only people who have any integrity would choose not to believe the lies and take personal responsibility for their own life and behavior. Only weak people need a scapegoat to dump things on to feel better about themselves. those who live in a fantasy world do that, not people who can face reality and deal with their own weaknesses and imperfections and accept themselves and others..

[Zerbie]

People can rally around their demogogues to stir up the flames of hatred , fear ,prejudice and mistrust, if they think that is what will make them feel better. Then people can become dangerously self righteous. But it won't absolve them of their own imperfections and human failings either, nor will it address and solve the issues and problems our society is facing. Only people who have any integrity would choose not to believe the lies and take personal responsibility for their own life and behavior. Only weak people need a scapegoat to dump things on to feel better about themselves. those who live in a fantasy world do that, not people who can face reality and deal with their own weaknesses and imperfections and accept themselves and others..

So how do we encourage an entire society to develop this courage to face what's inside and work to better what's outside?

Especially given that so much of the world seems set up to discourage that very thing.

Just this evening hubby and I went to dinner and it was so loud we couldn't hear each other. I felt anxious and alienated from the world because of all the noise and lack of connection. This distraction seems a subtle way of preventing connection - I mean, dinner? We should be able to have a conversation at dinner. . . it's not a dance party. :p

[ladyinred]

Zerbie all of us have to face up to what is inside of us, if we don't we won't change for the better.Often introspection is about being nonjudgmental and compassionate toward yourself. It is about taking a good hard look but also doing the work that is necessary to change and grow, people may lack information or not really know what to do. But nothing changes when people project onto to others their own weaknesses and problems. Intopsection is needed to be aware.Often people are affected by childhood issues like I have been or have false beliefs about what constitutes self esteem or self worth. Often we get messages from a dysfunctional society too..

[ladyinred]

I have to agree with you about our society and intimacy. many of us do not have examples of healthy relationships, or any spiritual guidance on the matter, no one can live a problem free existence and it is not the absence of problems we should seek, but more understanding and compassion of the human experience. Alot of people just won't wake up or know how to. I told you I was reading the book , The dance of the wounded souls by Robert Berny, we all have a condition that needs to be healed ,our ignorance for one. Our unloving thoughts and behaviors toward ourselves and others is another His book is very similar to innerbonding which is a website by Margaret Paul, and she is outstanding. She is definitely not one who leads people astray. She often talks about her childhood struggles. But her perceptions and attitudes about God and spirituality ar a far cry from fundamantalism. We all have issues. None of us have gone through life unaffected or unscathed from something. People are looking for answers. I don't think they can find their answers from negative people or negative religion or toxic people who engender the lowest denominator of human existence. Our society we must look at, People if they want to change and grow in a postive direction need to examine the course they are on and the beliefs they have. Human nature is not innately evil but we have alot of misconceptions about how life should be.

[ladyinred]

Robert Berney says we are spiritual beings having a human experience and because of past experiences we have shame for being human. He really takes an in depth look at the human condition. And he has alot of insight into it. I grew up trying to be Miss perfect for example. I had alot of fear of being disliked and of disapproval. I'm much more comfortable in my skin now. But I was a pretty sad kid growing up. I think many times I wanted to melt in to the walls and disapear. What was I missing in my life. Clarity for one.Emotional depth for another. And I had issues around self worth and self esteem, actually it was nonexistent. And had some hard times in the relationships I was in. Intimacy was something I did not have in relationships because I was so out of touch with my own feelings. I think we all have one journey in life and that is to grow in love and understanding and compassion toward ourselves and others, anything else is missing the boat. What are the lessons we most need to learn, it is not a judgment call, it is learning about life ourselves and others. No one is essentially a bad guy, we all just have unresolved "issues" with life and ourselves.

[ladyinred]

Spirituality is about process and growth and integration of self and identifying with humanity at large. It is knowing we have to find our own answers within , trust our own internal guidance , not to seek for them externally. No one can tell you about God, you have somewhere deep in you that inner knowing, in that silent place within you. Your own intuition and wisdom about things. Just as Daniel is part of the divine so are you. you have that spark within. Call it buddha nature ,Christ or higher awareness or consciousness, whatever name , names are not important. I'll quote this from the bible it says that Christ is within in 2 Corinthians 13:5. People overlook the very scripture that talks about this higher nature or spiritual nature. They try to find the answers externally without looking within. They are led by others instead of their own knowing and intuition. I don't know if you meditate,I practice it quite often. I've also had some unusual experiences and insights as well. I also know of people who have discounted those experiences, saying I couldn't possibly know what I am talking about and it usually has come from people who are very fundamentalistic in their views. Perhaps they view life from a very black and white perspective or see others as wrong,because they don't share their views on things. What get's people in trouble is when they think there is only one right way to do things. Or only their views or religious beliefs are correct.

I've seen it on alot of forums and I'd been somewhat a hypocrite myself in the past when I would get into arguments with people insisting they were wrong. I had to grow to realize there was more than one point of view and it wasn't always mine. Perhaps this one liner from a course in miracles is helpful ,do I want to be happy or do I want to be right? Can I really be happy looking down on others and making them wrong and myself right?And what can I learn from others. They may have some pretty interesting and insightful stuff to share.Anyway I'll tell you a secret the stuff I do read here and find insightful or even funny that people say here,I use for my own learning process.I even save stuff that I find helpful from other people and reread it again and again. Why? Because many of their experiences have been my own or I can relate to something they say.

[ladyinred]

Here Zerbie is something I would like to share from Burney's book, I think hits the nail right on the head, he elaborates on the nature of love in this particular chapter:"The civilization I was raised in is so sick and twisted that it took the teachings of the Master Teacher who came into body to teach us about Love and twisted those teachings into something shameful and hate-filled. Jesus Christ carried a message of Love - not shame and judgment." On the nature of love he states:The True Nature of Love - part 2, Love as Freedom
By Robert Burney
"The Universal Creative Force, as I understand it, is the energy field of ALL THAT IS vibrating at the frequency of Absolute Harmony. That vibrational frequency I call LOVE. (LOVE is the vibrational frequency of God; Love is an energy vibration within The Illusion which we can access; love is, in our Codependent culture, most often an addiction or an excuse for dysfunctional behavior.)
LOVE is the energy frequency of Absolute Harmony because it is the vibrational frequency where there is no separation.

Energy moves in wave-like patterns; what enables movement is the separation between the valley of the wave and its peak. The distance from peak to peak is called it's wavelength. It is a law of physics that as vibrational frequency rises, as it gets higher, the wavelength gets shorter. The frequency of LOVE is the vibrational frequency where wavelength disappears, where separation disappears.

It is a place of absolute Peace, motionless, timeless, completely at rest: The Eternal Now.

The Peace and Bliss of The Eternal Now is the True Absolute Reality of the God-Force."

(Text in this color are quotes from Codependence: The Dance of Wounded Souls)
What is Love? That is the question. I have been quite balled up the last week in attempting to write this column. No, that is not quite true - I have been unable to get into a space to even attempt to write this column. I need to get into a certain space - need to be feeling a special kind of creative energy - to write about a topic such as this. It was much easier to write last month's column about "what Love is not." Then I was writing about something much more concrete, much more black and white (the irony of this - since one of the characteristics of the disease is black and white thinking - is fodder for a completely different column.) The dynamics of the disease and the wounding process are very clear in my eyes. I have experienced the type of love that is shaming, abusive, manipulative, smothering, intrusive, addictive, etc., my whole life.
In fact, I learned a new word while writing this column. As I was composing the above paragraph, and taking note of how much easier it was to write last month's column, the word empirical came to mind.

So, I did what comes naturally when a word pops to mind - I looked it up.

empirical 1. Relating to or based on experience or observation. 2. Relying entirely or to excess upon direct, repeated, and uncritically accepted experience: opposed to metempirical.
Aha, a new word.
metempirical 1. Lying beyond the bounds of experience, as intuitive principles; not derived from experience; transcendental.
So, even though I just said that it was easier to write 'what Love is not' because of my experience - in Truth when I say that Love is not shaming and abusive, I am actually stating my intuitive Truth. If I were just relying on my experience, I would say "love is shaming and abusive and controlling," "love is being responsible for other people's feelings and well being," etc. - and that would be the Truth about love with a small l. When I say Love is not shaming, I am talking about the True Nature of Love as I intuitively understand it. Once I started to awaken to the reality that civilized society on this planet was based upon some false beliefs, then I started to be able to validate my intuitive feeling that something was dreadfully wrong here. I Knew deep inside, from a very young age, that this was not my home. I Knew that Love, if it was really such a wonderful thing, should not be so painful - just as I Knew it was ridiculous for both sides in a war to think that God was on their side and would help them kill the enemy.

Love that is Freedom
I could feel that Love must be something much greater than I had learned growing up. If Love is so wonderful, if Love is the answer - then Love should set us Free. That is what is coming up as I write this column - Love that is Freedom. Love that is Joy. Love that is the only Truth that has ever mattered.
Love that is Freedom - what does that mean? To me it means the Freedom to be OK with being me. The Freedom to relax and enJoy the moment. The Freedom to be - just be, without having to strive, to work for, to try to reach, to prove myself, to earn Love, to get "there."

It means: Freedom from shame. Freedom from judgment. Freedom from loneliness. Freedom from feeling separate, different, not a part of, not acceptable. Freedom from the endless, aching longing for something more. Freedom from the hole in my soul - from the bottomless abyss of pain and shame and sadness that I feel at the core of my being.

This place is not my home. When I yearn for Love, I am longing to go home.

"I was 'transported with Joy', and my 'spirit was soaring', as I danced on the rock. And in my dancing and singing I Truly understood what those expressions meant. For in being 'transported' and 'soaring' I was merely tuning into the vibrational frequency that is Joy and Love and Truth. I could see clearly now how human beings throughout history had been trying to tune into Love. The primal urge that has caused humans to attempt to 'alter their consciousness', through drugs or religion or food or meditation or whatever, is no more than an attempt to raise one's vibrational frequency. All any soul in body has ever done is to try to return home to God - we were just doing it all backwards because of the reversity of the planets energy field."

The Dance of The Wounded Souls Trilogy Book 1 "In The Beginning . . . " (Chapter 4)
Humans have always been looking for a way home. For a way to connect with our Higher Consciousness. For a way to reconnect with our creator. Throughout human history, human beings have used temporary artificial means to raise their vibrational level, to try to reconnect with Higher Consciousness.

Drugs and alcohol, meditation and exercise, sex and religion, starvation and overeating, the self-torture of the flagellant or the deprivation of the hermit - all are attempts to connect with higher consciousness. Attempts to reconnect with Spiritual Self. Attempts to go home.

Part of the reason that I have had trouble in writing this column is because of the intellectual context I was approaching it from. I was thinking that I had to know what I was talking about, had to be able to communicate to you the Truth about Love. That was pretty silly of me.* Love is what I am learning about. Love is what recovery and healing are all about. Love is the goal. Love is home.
*[Actually, it was my disease at work - causing me to judge and shame myself for not feeling competent to write about the True Nature of Love. This disease of codependence is so incredibly insidious, treacherous, and powerful. It continually turns back in on itself. The disease doesn't want me to take the risk of Loving and trusting my self and then it turns around and causes me to judge myself because I don't Love my self. I don't Love myself because of the disease - the ego programming that is a result of being wounded and traumatized by being Spiritually orphaned in an alien environment. By being born into and raised in an emotionally dishonest and dysfunctional, Spiritually hostile, shame based, Love mutilated (mutilate - 1. To deprive of a limb or essential part. 2. To damage or injure by the removal of an important part.) civilization on a planet where civilized societies have evolved based on the belief in separation and fear-based hostility - separation between beings, separation between humans and their environment, and separation between the flesh and the Spirit. The civilization I was raised in is so sick and twisted that it took the teachings of the Master Teacher who came into body to teach us about Love and twisted those teachings into something shameful and hate-filled. Jesus Christ carried a message of Love - not shame and judgment.]

"Due to the planetary conditions, the human ego developed a belief in separation - which is what made violence possible and caused the human condition as we inherited it. The reflection of that human condition on the individual level is the disease of Codependence. Codependence is caused by the ego being traumatized and programed in early childhood so that our relationship with ourselves and the God-Force is dysfunctional - that is, it does not work to help us access the Truth of ONENESS and Love. It is through healing our relationship with ourselves that we open our inner channel and start tuning into the Truth."
Jesus & Christ Consciousness
Now what I thought last month was going to be one column about the True Nature of Love has turned into at least a 4 part series. In dealing with the shame I was feeling about not knowing enough about Love to write about it's True Nature, I have in fact been processing through that shame to get to a place where I can be free to write about the type of Love that can set me Free. So, I will save "Love as a vibrational frequency" and "Love and romance" for future columns.
I have only a little experience with feeling Love that sets me Free - and that has come primarily since I have been in recovery. In those moments when I am able to connect with Love in it's True form, then I feel that all of the pain and suffering has been worth the experience. Then I get a taste of what home really feels like. Then I get to feel the Joy and Truth and Love that Truly does set me Free from the illusion of separation. In those moments, I can sometimes even feel grateful for that illusion. Because without the illusion of separation from The Source Energy, from Love - I would never have gotten the opportunity to experience Love.

I am going to end this column with a continuation of the quote from my book "The Dance of Wounded Souls" which I started it with. This quote is from the very end of my book. This is my intuitive Truth. This is an important part of the understanding which has led to the beginning of my liberation from the shame. This Truth has helped me to start Loving myself a little bit - to start Loving myself enough to be Free to start believing that maybe, just maybe I am Lovable and Loved.

"The Peace and Bliss of The Eternal Now is the True Absolute Reality of the God-Force.

The illusion of separation - the distance, the separation, between the peak and the valley - is what makes motion possible. Separation is necessary for energy to be in motion. The illusion of separation was necessary to create The Illusion.

As part of the ONENESS of ALL THAT IS, we are God and God is LOVE. We are part of the Truth of ONENESS vibrating at LOVE. As part of the ONENESS of LOVE we would never have been able to experience Love. It is kind of like, "If you are sugar then you never get to taste sugar."

In God we are LOVE. Without the illusion of separation we would never have had the opportunity to experience Love. Would never have been able to Love and be Loved.

Separation was necessary to allow us the incredible gift of experiencing Love, of Loving and being Loved.

The Illusion that caused all of the pain is also the vehicle for allowing us to feel and be Loved.

If you pursue your path of healing, I think that you will find as I have that it is very much worth it. It is worth it to be able to experience Love.

This is the Age of Healing and Joy. It is time to start remembering who you Truly are, to start feeling and tuning into the Truth which exists within you.

We are all butterflies.
This is all I'll post because I have a subscription to the site and I don't want to overpost material here.But the site has many free articles and you can subscribe to the entire site.I felt like what he touched upon in his comments was a sense of clarity and understanding about the human condition,and his words on Jesus hit the nail right on the head. I want to note he is not saying all religion is bad, but like Mel White wrote about on religion gone bad seems to connect here with Burney's points. Religion that is fear-based rather than love based , that which does not produce a healthy sense of self love is toxic to the soul,it is damaging spiritually. It is destroying us.

[Progo35]

Being able to be married is a whole other matter. Your make it sound as though gay people wouldn't engage in risky sex if they were able to be married. Not so.

Straight couples engage in 'risky' sex all the time. It's called getting pregnant. Marriage doesn't minimize this risk one bit.


Yes, but getting pregnant is a risk that, in general, will not kill you if it happens. I don't think that being able to get married would keep gay individuals from having risky sex anymore than it prevents straight individuals from having risky sex, but I would think that this might be a contributing factor. But, as you said, I really don't know too much about it and should do some more research.

[Progo35]

I did some research through GLAD and this is what I came up with on the AIDS awareness section of their site:

"In addition, we have much work to do in the area of prevention. Today, HIV infection is on the rise again after many years of decrease, with major disparities based on race or ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation. We are all being hit hard. While blacks and Hispanics make up only 12% of the population, they account for half of all HIV/AIDS cases; Male-to-male sexual contact accounts for more than half of the cases recently diagnosed among men, and gay youth under the age of 22 are among the most at risk; women's infection rates are soaring, with 59% being infected through heterosexual sex; and injection drug use leads to 30% of all infections."

This quote seems to indicate that gay individuals do experience sexually transmitted AIDS at a higher rate, but that the transmission rate in heterosexual encounters has also increased. But, the very fact that GLAD says that there is a disparity in sexual orientation would seem to indicate that there is a sociological reason for that disparity. Obviously, however, a significant amount of HIV infections come from all kinds of different sources and are impacted by a variety of factors.

[rainbow7]

Actually, Lady, my mother's first words to me when she discovered me in a panic that night were, "Don't worry Zerbie, AIDS won't happen to you. Only bad people get it." I looked at her like she was off her rocker (my mom is highly educated and used to be quite liberal when I was a tot,) and then just broke down in tears. That was when she looked at me like I was maggoty and asked, "Oh -God! No! You're not - - - crying for the homosexuals - - - are you?!?!"

Oh what an awful evening.

It took her another decade-plus, but she got beyond that. In fact, a few months ago I told her about a new gay-rights project I'm involved with, and I practically fell off my chair when she replied with, "That sounds like quite a big project. Good luck! Let me know how it goes." (sound of a thud as Zerbie strikes the floor)

Given time - and *willingness* (willingness is key) - we all grow.

Zerbie,

When I read your story, it touched something very deep inside me and made me want to share this one in return:

When I was 13, my best friend was one of only maybe 6 African American students in the otherwise all-white school we attended. My friend and I loved to sing together, and often sang at community functions. The morning that we sang in her church, mine was the only white face in the congregation, but I felt very welcome.

Then I asked my (white) pastor if we could sing in our (all white) church (whose denomination shall remain unnamed). When he learned that my friend was African American, he suggested that perhaps she might feel “uncomfortable” being the only one like her in worship. I came home and told my parents that I was NEVER going back to church again. I had been very active in this church, recently confirmed after 2 years of confirmation class……baby-sat in the church nursery and NEVER missed youth group. But I thought the pastor was a racist and I didn’t want any part of his congregation if my friend was not welcome because of her race. And my outrage extended to all churches.

It was more than 7 years before I set foot in a church again, and when I did, one of the reasons was because of some friends who asked me to come to their church. I respected and cherished these friends, and I knew them to be committed to social justice and equality…..they were kind and compassionate people, and I reasoned that if THEY belonged to this church, it could not possibly be as narrow-minded as the church of my childhood. It did, in fact, turn out to be a good experience, but of course during my 7-year hiatus from organized Christian worship, I had moved from a childlike faith to a developmentally characteristic skeptical one. And then I became a feminist, which for me meant the beginning of a struggle that continues to this day, to reconcile my faith with a tradition that has included racism, sexism, misogynism, homophobia, classism, etc. My hermeneutic is one of CONSIDERABLE suspicion.

I still find plenty in “the church” that I cannot embrace, and it is hard for me to claim the word Christian in my identity because people like Dobson and the far right also call themselves Christians. I have plenty of problems with the bible and the ways it has been used to oppress people, but finally, like Dorothee Soelle, I have to “subscribe to the other hypothesis/ which is his story…” Experiential subjective encounter plays a bigger role in my understanding of authority than does the bible itself, but I can’t throw the bible out. It’s one part of what keeps me in relationship with the Divine.

[u-dog]

I still find plenty in “the church” that I cannot embrace, and it is hard for me to claim the word Christian in my identity because people like Dobson and the far right also call themselves Christians. I have plenty of problems with the bible and the ways it has been used to oppress people, but finally, like Dorothee Soelle, I have to “subscribe to the other hypothesis/ which is his story…” Experiential subjective encounter plays a bigger role in my understanding of authority than does the bible itself, but I can’t throw the bible out. It’s one part of what keeps me in relationship with the Divine.

And then there's the whole thing about how complicated it would be to be the atheist wife of the Pastor!! :eek: ;) We have spent the last 23 years keeping each other honest around spiritual issues haven't we Polly? :)

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,

When I read your story, it touched something very deep inside me and made me want to share this one in return:

When I was 13, my best friend was one of only maybe 6 African American students in the otherwise all-white school we attended. My friend and I loved to sing together, and often sang at community functions. The morning that we sang in her church, mine was the only white face in the congregation, but I felt very welcome.

Then I asked my (white) pastor if we could sing in our (all white) church (whose denomination shall remain unnamed). When he learned that my friend was African American, he suggested that perhaps she might feel “uncomfortable” being the only one like her in worship. I came home and told my parents that I was NEVER going back to church again. I had been very active in this church, recently confirmed after 2 years of confirmation class……baby-sat in the church nursery and NEVER missed youth group. But I thought the pastor was a racist and I didn’t want any part of his congregation if my friend was not welcome because of her race. And my outrage extended to all churches.

I still find plenty in “the church” that I cannot embrace, and it is hard for me to claim the word Christian in my identity because people like Dobson and the far right also call themselves Christians. I have plenty of problems with the bible and the ways it has been used to oppress people, but finally, like Dorothee Soelle, I have to “subscribe to the other hypothesis/ which is his story…”

Thank you. I'm glad to know of your journey, Polly, it gives me great hope! My way of dealing with the situation was to never go to church - easy, since my parents actively discouraged it and it was never a habit to begin with. I'm glad that you told me what you did. My instinct was to stay far far away from everything having to do with christianity, in order to protect the good that was dying inside me. But what your story shows is the incredible damage that people like Rev Letthefaggotsdie and Dobson, etc, do to those who are committed to growing via the Bible and christianity - it is a damage they do to you if it makes you hesitate to identify being christian. I would be beyond white-hot furious if someone willfully abused the scriptures I study in the way that these folks do to christianity.

They throw a wedge between us by making many suspicious of those who are christian. What they do is an evil, whether they understand it or not. If we do not let them drive that wedge, then the bad stuff won't win. Or at least such is my hope. :pray:



Experiential subjective encounter plays a bigger role in my understanding of authority than does the bible itself, but I can’t throw the bible out. It’s one part of what keeps me in relationship with the Divine.

Okay. I respect that. I haven't read it yet, myself. Since I never grew up with it, or even read it, there is no question of throwing something out. It was never inside to begin with. So don't think I threw anything out. I KEPT a relationship with God by rejecting christianity.

And then there's the whole thing about how complicated it would be to be the atheist wife of the Pastor!! :eek: ;) :)

:lol: Oh my! Thanks for that, U-dog. There have been some times when I've had to show up in certain places and shake hands with random people because my husband has some dealing with them - I call it, time to dress up and play wife. I can only imagine if he were a pastor and I showed up and went off about being atheist - oh dear. :p:lol:

[ladyinred]

Zerbie I agree a church should be inclusive,I always had in my mind a church should welcome everyone regardless of race and ethnicity. I agree with you that people like Dobson are like a deadly toxin ,seeking to divide rather than to unite people. Even his ideas on child raising are abhorrent he often refers to the child who is willful who needs soul crushing to comply with his parents. I'm frankly sick of sick religion, it is twisted and distorted and shame based. I'm tired of good people in the LGBT community being told they are not Christians or spiritual because they don't support the religious rights claim and ideology that gay people don't deserve to be treated with respect. and dignity.

[ladyinred]

Progo personally statistics are not always reliable. There is no indication on my part saying that gays cannot get aids through risky behavior , however aids is everyone's problem. You saying that homosexual men get it at higher rates still indicates to me that you don't see the whole picture . STDS and disease has been a problem througout history.I am saying people need to quit scapegoating others. The LGBT community first of all is not dealing with denial, they have done much to face the problem and educate people about aids and safer sex practices, can you claim that the straight community has been as strident in educating straight people about risky sexual behavior, have they educated their youth about the risk of aids and other risky sexual behavior? Seems like to me they are more engaged in denial and delusion and the idea that ,"We can't get it, because only faggots do." The LGBT community is still way ahead of the game because they have confronted the problem and are taking steps to deal with it.They don't have their heads in the sand. They know it is a problem.

[Zerbie]

Progo personally statistics are not always reliable. There is no indication on my part saying that gays cannot get aids through risky behavior , however aids is everyone's problem. You saying that homosexual men get it at higher rates still indicates to me that you don't see the whole picture . STDS and disease has been a problem througout history.I am saying people need to quit scapegoating others. The LGBT community first of all is not dealing with denial, they have done much to face the problem and educate people about aids and safer sex practices, can you claim that the straight community has been as strident in educating straight people about risky sexual behavior, have they educated their youth about the risk of aids and other risky sexual behavior? Seems like to me they are more engaged in denial and delusion and the idea that ,"We can't get it, because only faggots do." The LGBT community is still way ahead of the game because they have confronted the problem and are taking steps to deal with it.They don't have their heads in the sand. They know it is a problem.


In Progo's defense, here, actually, and I don't recall the source (sorry) I'm sure I've seen statistics released by LGBT organizations that show AIDS still disproportionately affecting gay men in the US (or it may have been in certain city areas that were studied, I don't recall). I do recall the ensuing discussion about the difference in attitude between older gay men (who were adults during the height of AIDS-panic in the 80s and early 90s) and that of younger men coming of age now.

As far as I know, concern about things like "bug parties" and meth abuse leading to carelessness are still being raised in the gay press - they were the last time I picked up my local LGBT magazines (which was a while ago). No one sexual orientation has the market cornered on risky behavior, but I think it's more than possible that social stigma and internalized homophobia may play a role in self-damaging behaviors of all sorts.

Over-generalizing, one way or the other, is going to obscure the issue. We should probably try to avoid it when possible.

[ladyinred]

[
" No one sexual orientation has the market cornered on risky behavior, but I think it's more than possible that social stigma and internalized homophobia may play a role in self-damaging behaviors of all sorts.

Over-generalizing, one way or the other, is going to obscure the issue. We should probably try to avoid it when possible."
Good point. But the problem I see is with the stigma associated with aids and calling it a gay disease, What I am saying Zerbie aids is not a gay disease, it is and has affected everyone. Instead of scapegoating people we need to address the problems, as long as we single out a certain group of people as the PROBLEM ,we cannot face the issues head on nor deal with the issues honestly. I've said that on my own spiritual path I am working on my own issues, It to me is the path to healing. When we single out and scapegoat any group as wrong or bad and make them the cause of everything wrong in the world that is not being honest. We all are accountable for our own actions and behaviors, we cannot make someone else responsible for them. Not only have gays been accused of breaking up families and marriages, and blamed for all the societal woes, they are seen as parasites and aids is seen as primarily being their fault for the spread of it. I think a reality check is long overdue. In order for LGBT people to heal they must let go of the stigma that aids is primarily a gay disease,this is obviously false and misinformed.

[Progo35]

That is what I intend to indicate by mentioning the statistic-what I mean to say is that if that is true, than LGBT defense organizations should, as some are, try to keep studying WHY that is the case so that any sociological factors contributing to the disproportion can be eradicated. I'm certainly not saying that AIDS was caused by gay people or that gay people are responsible for spreading it. In terms of awareness, I would argue that the straight community has also done a lot of awareness activities in terms of AIDS. I went to primary school in the 1990s, and even before first grade I remember learning about AIDS. And, when I went through sex ed, AIDS was a huge issue that was addressed both in respect to heterosexual sex and the gay community. Basically, the teacher pointed out that in the beginning no one was that concerned about AIDS because there was an attitude that if only gay people got it, than it wasn't very important. The teacher emphasize that this was prejudice and that ANYONE can get or spread the disease.

[ladyinred]

Progo good point, I think we have to look at the issue realistically even heterosexual kids need to learn about aids in sex education so they can protect themselves from it. This is important. What I am talking about is distorting things, misleading people by saying that aids is the homosexual scourge , part of the problem in Africa with the spread of the disease from what I read is people are very ill educated, women are actually discouraged from using protection, because of the ignorance and social pressures and refusal to be educated and informed , as a result kids end up being orphaned. We certainly don't want to see that tragedy here, or have heterosexuals misinformed about the disease. That way they can take the steps too protect themsleves . They say knowledge is power. I can think of nothing more tragic than a young kid being misinformed about aids and then getting it. We do know certain behavior is riskier ,like sharing needles in drug usage, or having sex with mutiple partners without protection,but even marriage doesn't offset the risk especially if one's partner engages in sex with others, so the only solution seems to be to use protection. Or have someone checked for the virus before you engage is sexual activity.

When I was pregnant and I was delivering my son they had asked me to sign a form to check me for aids,I signed it and they checked me out,I wasn't offended because doctors don't want to be at risk either. I'm not at this current time sexually active and I don't have a partner, I have other things to worry about right now. And I certainly don't want to be exposed to something due to someone's elses careless sexual behavior.. But actually having the doctor check me out even though I was not sexually promiscious brought me peace of mind. I tested negative for HIV and don't have it.
But let's look at , for example, a young heterosexual girl who may be involved in sex at an early age or risky behavior, what I am saying when you let these religious leaders tell you that gays are being punnished for aids, they are overlooking the facts and truthful information about aids. That is why I am saying they are dishonest. The lies they spread hurt everyone. Some young kid who thinks aids is a fag disease and he can't get it might be in for a rude awakening sometime in his life.

[ladyinred]

This is by Robert Burney:Homosexuality - and the Bible
"Homosexuality - sexual and romantic attraction to beings of the same sex, the same gender - is a natural and normal part of the human experience. There has been a portion of the population, in every society that has existed on this planet, that was homosexual. In most tribal societies, homosexuals were accorded honored positions of importance in the cultural scheme of tribal life."
"A Gay man or Lesbian woman knows very early in life that they are different. Environment does not produce homosexuality - it is something which is part of a person's DNA, part of their genetic programming, a perfect part of their Spiritual and Karmic path."

"Anyone who cites the story of Lot to back up their contention that homosexuality is an abomination is not only showing their ignorance of what the bible itself says, they are revealing themselves to be homophobic misogynists who could condone gang rape of innocent young girls and incest as preferable to homosexuality."

This is an article in a series of articles focused upon issues involving gender, sexuality, romantic relationships, and directly related topics. Welcome
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This is article is part of a series of articles which are focused upon issues involving gender, sexuality, romantic relationships, and directly related topics. This article Homosexuality - and the Bible was originally published online August 27, 2003 on Robert's Inner Child / Codependency Recovery page on the Suite101.com Directory. There is a list of - and links to - the other articles in this series on Suite 101 on the Suite101 Articles page. This article was used to create this page on Joy2MeU in April of 2004.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Homosexuality - and the Bible
By Robert Burney
""The gift of touch is an incredibly wonderful gift. One of the reasons we are here is to touch each other physically as well as Spiritually, emotionally, and mentally. Touch is not bad or shameful. Our creator did not give us sensual and sexual sensations that feel so wonderful just to set us up to fail some perverted, sadistic life test. Any concept of god that includes the belief that the flesh and the Spirit cannot be integrated, that we will be punished for honoring our powerful human desires and needs, is - in my belief - a sadly twisted, distorted, and false concept that is reversed to the Truth of a Loving God-Force.
We need to strive for balance and integration in our relationships. We need to touch in healthy, appropriate, emotionally honest ways - so that we can honor our human bodies and the gift that is physical touch.

Making Love is a celebration and a way of honoring the Masculine and Feminine Energy of the Universe (and the masculine and feminine energy within no matter what genders are involved), a way of honoring its perfect interaction and harmony. It is a blessed way of honoring the Creative Source."

"The Bible contains Truth, much of it symbolic or in parable form because most of the audience at the time it was written had very little sophistication or imagination. They did not have the tools and the knowledge we have access to now.

So the Bible does contain Truth - it also contains a lot of distortion. The Bible was translated many times. It was translated by male Codependents.""

(All quotes in this color are from Codependence: The Dance of Wounded Souls)
Homosexuality - sexual and romantic attraction to beings of the same sex, the same gender - is a natural and normal part of the human experience. There has been a portion of the population, in every society that has existed on this planet, that was homosexual. In most tribal societies, homosexuals were accorded honored positions of importance in the cultural scheme of tribal life.

The vast majority of individuals who are living a homosexual lifestyle are simply following the first real guideline of healthy behavior - to thine own Self be True. A Gay man or Lesbian woman knows very early in life that they are different. Environment does not produce homosexuality - it is something which is part of a person's DNA, part of their genetic programming, a perfect part of their Spiritual and Karmic path.

Those who would try to say that the Bible condemns homosexuality are not literally interpreting the Bible - they are imposing their bigotry upon the Bible. The story that I have heard cited most often to support this bigotry is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I did a quick search on Google for the word Sodom today, and about half the sites in the first 20 results were scholarly treatises from both Christian and Jewish scholars pointing out that the bible does not anywhere state that the sin of Sodom was homosexuality - that this is an interpretation imposed upon it. Anyone who cites the story of Lot to back up their contention that homosexuality is an abomination is not only showing their ignorance of what the bible itself says, they are revealing themselves to be homophobic misogynists who could condone gang rape of innocent young girls and incest as preferable to homosexuality.

(I personally believe that interpreting the Bible as the literal word of God is a folly, and that the Old Testament with it's angry, judgmental, vengeful, punishing male version of God is at the root of a lot of the violence we see in the world today. As I pointed out in the online book I wrote about the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001 Attack on America - A Spiritual Healing Perspective the foundation of Christian, Jewish and Islamic religion is the Old Testament with it's warlike god. In a recent chapter of my latest online book, Codependency Recovery: Wounded Souls Dancing in the Light Book 2: A Dysfunctional Relationship with Life Chapter 14: A Spiritual Manifesto, I spoke of the importance of having the discernment to separate the great Metaphysical power of the name, symbol, and message of Love taught by the Master Teacher Jesus Christ from both the Old Testament version of God and the twisted version of Christianity that evolved because governments - beginning with Rome - used Christianity as a tool for controlling the masses. Anyone who cares to know about my beliefs in regard to the bible and sexuality can read my article Jesus & Mary Magdalene - Jesus, sexuality, & the Bible.)

And homosexuality is as much related to pedophilia as fish are to bicycles. Homosexuals are not pedophiles - although some pedophiles may be homosexual, the two are not even closely synonymous. Homosexuals are not out prowling, looking to recruit "innocent" victims - that is bull. Those are the kind of ignorant, bigoted pronouncements made by small minded people whose beliefs do not support Love and ONENESS - whose beliefs are in fact reversed to the Truth of Love, because they promote separation and fear of differences.

As human beings we have much more in common - no matter what differences of race, color, creed, national heritage, language, or sexual orientation we may exhibit on the outside - than we have differences. This is without even taking our True Spiritual Essence into account. As human beings, we share the same basic emotional process and can watch a movie about someone who is completely different from us in terms of race, culture, language, etc. - and still resonate with them emotionally in a moment of tragedy, or triumph. Someone from our home town, who we might pass on the street without a second thought in the normal course of daily life, becomes a kindred spirit when we meet them in a foreign country. Every human being on the planet is someone who we could feel connected to - feel on the same wave length with - in the right circumstances in relationship to some shared feeling, interest, and/or experience. The basic emotional dynamics in romantic relationships are the same for heterosexuals and homosexuals - because we are the identical in our basic emotional process, in what we feel as emotional human beings.

The definitive factor for me in determining what is Truth - what is a natural and normal human behavior as opposed to a reaction/an effect of the emotionally repressive, Spiritually hostile, shame-based, Love mutilated environment that has been present on the planet - is: does it support Love and connection between individuals, or does it support separation and fear. Being True to Self and Loving another human being, no matter what gender they are, is aligned with Love and Truth. Bigotry and hate are not aligned with Love.

I
There are also some people who are bisexual. There are people who are transsexual and transgendered. I do not know a whole lot about the later two - what I do know is that we are all ONE in the Spirit. We are all children of God / Goddess, extensions of the Divine, part of The Great Spirit. We are all experiencing being human. We all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.



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I'd also like to note that Robert Burney is a heterosexual male, but he is a spiritual counselor, hey if he can see LGBT people as perfectly normal and aligned to their own truth, there is hope for the world. I have to respect this man's integrity because even though he believes in Christ he is not using the bible as an instrument for blugeoning lesbians ,gay and bisexuals over the head with shame and guilt. He relates to his own childhood religious experience (Hellfire and damnation , he sees this as spiritual abuse)and calls shame-based and fear based religion toxic,twisted and distorted.

--I'd like to add this comment, though I have posted certain things from websites like innerbonding and Robert Burneys website I thought would help people. I will not be doing this anymore.I might post a small excerpt, because the websites are the intellectual property of the authors.I will only now recommend websites like innerbonding.com, and Robert Berneys,for people who are seeking help on their own path. I will highly recommend Robert Burney and Margaret Paul. You will gain alot of help from their websites, they do not charge unreasonable fees to join their websites or to subscribe to them.Margaret Paul charges 5.00 a month and anytime you want to cancel is up to you. Both websites have books and other information which you can buy and are very reasonable. They also offer counseling for individuals who request it. With their knowledge and extensive working with people,I will say they are trustworthy and would highly recommend both and their websites.-Margaret Paul has worked with Alanis Morrisette and Lindsey Wagner, prisoners in jails and other celebrities, business people, and people from all walks of life.Robert Berney has worked extensively in pioneering inner child healing work. I highly recommend him as well.- Neither one will claim to be an authority in your own life but give guidelines to help you in your own life and decisions.----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ladyinred]

I personally like to be exposed to new ideas ,especially if they reasonate with me. Call it expanding my horizons. If religion is just being used as a weapon to imprison people in the bondage of fear and causes them to hate themselves, please count me out. Where is the exit please?

[Zerbie]

The conversation currently going on with a certain someone in the foyer right now is bringing all this up for me.

I had recently decided to try out a church and I liked the visit. But I have such a hard time being around anything having to do with christianity, and after the recent words I've read, I would feel justified in slamming the door on it for good.

I don't want to let things I don't like keep me away from things I DO like. But I just don't want to associate with something that is bad, poisonous, negative. And from my vantage point, Christianity is mostly pollution. It's just - there are some nice parts, and some amazing people - I'm really wondering if there might be a way to enjoy and appreciate that.

I don't know what I want.
:'(:'(

[keltic63]

The conversation currently going on with a certain someone in the foyer right now is bringing all this up for me.

I had recently decided to try out a church and I liked the visit. But I have such a hard time being around anything having to do with christianity, and after the recent words I've read, I would feel justified in slamming the door on it for good.

I don't want to let things I don't like keep me away from things I DO like. But I just don't want to associate with something that is bad, poisonous, negative. And from my vantage point, Christianity is mostly pollution. It's just - there are some nice parts, and some amazing people - I'm really wondering if there might be a way to enjoy and appreciate that.

I don't know what I want.
:'(:'(

find one that is open and affirming of gay people. not that they'd be a perfect church, but I bet you'd find people who have done their homework about loving each other. they'd probably know for sure what they are about, have a definite sense of their mission, and probably go about it in a good way. No one says that you have to become more involved than just attending.

[tymejumper]

I remember my best friend at the time being told to get up at dawn and to pray the rosary for all the aborted babies that would go to Hell without her praying. She was 11 years old. I was horrified and swore I would NEVER raise my child like that nor follow a religion like that. Hence, I have not followed any one church or religion, I don't believe in Hell nor do I believe that the creator is a male. It saddens me greatly that we are all trying to get to one place, some type of afterlife(reincarnation or Heaven or whatever) yet religion has in itself been used through the years to spread hate and horror.

I am fundamentally a faithful person but not a religious one.

[Zerbie]

Why on earth am I even considering being open to churches then? This stuff is certifiably INSANE!

Someone talk some sense into me.

[andrewlittle]

... being the orthodox one, for now. So, best of luck to you. Oh, I mean, here goes. (Actually, just kidding - while I tend to be a little orthodox, I definitely don't want someone telling me what to believe.)

The conversation currently going on with a certain someone in the foyer right now is bringing all this up for me.

I had recently decided to try out a church and I liked the visit. But I have such a hard time being around anything having to do with christianity, and after the recent words I've read, I would feel justified in slamming the door on it for good.

I don't want to let things I don't like keep me away from things I DO like. But I just don't want to associate with something that is bad, poisonous, negative. And from my vantage point, Christianity is mostly pollution. It's just - there are some nice parts, and some amazing people - I'm really wondering if there might be a way to enjoy and appreciate that.

I don't know what I want.
:'(:'(

Okay, Zerbie. Every church has at least two doors - a front and a back - and some have way more. The front door, so to speak, seems to be fine for many people - those that have a set of beliefs and they're looking for someplace that seems reasonably comfortable with them.

But I have an affinity for people who try the back door. There are a lot of people who aren't sure what they believe - if anything much - or aren't too sure that any church is going to behave the way they think a church should. These folk should - and I repeat, should - be made to feel comfortable coming and listening, or feeling, or seeing or whatever. They aren't ready to walk in the front door proclaiming a particular set of beliefs, but that doesn't mean that they can't explore church and faith from the pew, if they choose.

I have to kind of think that you know what you DON'T want, Zerbie, and that you will recognize it if you see it. There is no signing on a dotted line or making a lifetime commitment - at least, if there is, RUN - just becaue you want to see if you can feel a church's spirit. And there is no rule that says you can't visit any number of churches any number of times. The nature of church, at its best, is community - and, if it's a warm, welcoming community they may want to embrace you into their family quicker than you may be ready for.

You have the power to say "You know, I like to take my relationships slow. I'd like to savor the experiences, rather than gobble them up in one fell swoop. I kind of like you (if that's true) but I don;t want to marry you, yet." After being away from the church for over twenty years, I took five years to get a feel for it, and that explanation worked well for me most of the time. And, for those place it wasn't accepted, I just figured they weren;t the place for me right them.

A key is remembering that, just like GLBT folks, church people are not monolithic or uniform. They come in all sizes and flavors. Please don't assume that Donny speaks for all - or even most. That particular kind of arrogance comes with an unfortunate few.

[Zerbie]

Thanks, Andy. I definitely know what I DON'T want! And I am not going to a visit anyplace that doesn't have a fair amount of info publicized someplace that indicates to me that they probably aren't what I don't want (if a rambling sentence like that manages to communicate anything at all.:o)

What I'm less sure of is what I do want. I want to enjoy a community where people are working on healing injuries that have been done to the world from an internal perspective, ie. beginning with themselves. I would like some three dimensional friends with whom I can have conversations like the ones we have here.

Maybe I should just be taking dance classes or learning a foreign language. What do you think, Andy?

[Alecto]

Zerbie (I don't know if I asked, is Zerb ok? In my head it gets shortened, and it sounds kinda cute, but I don't like to project my label onto you),
I don't know how, but I haven't seen this thread before. I'll admit I read the first post, and then the last couple.

On the first one: I so much want a doctor-who time machine to go back and give 9 year old Zerbie a hug. Also....you were a pretty awesome kid, from the sounds of it. There are plenty of lists of open and affirming churches that specifically wouldn't be telling you how evil gay folks are, but as for what you're looking for...have you considered looking into UU? My understanding is that the Unitarian Universalists are NOT strictly Christian, but...it sounds like a place where you really would get to hang out with a bunch of people and have conversations like you have here. I haven't looked into it too far, but I have a friend that was raised UU, and I"ll probably check out the local church here with her this coming Sunday (just before pride, which they always march in).

I decided that I'm not going to let other people keep me from enjoying life. If the people AT the church you checked out are part of the reason you're going there, and THEY aren't what you thought they were, that'sone thing. But don't let other folks keep you from finding what you're looking for.

[pnggrad79]

Zerb,
No church will be perfect and besides you shouldn't go if you have the goal in mind that it will be and all there will be welcoming and inclusive. That will happen when pigs fly. There is no perfect church. The reason to go is simply that as a spiritual person you want to connect on some level with God, maybe learn an aspect of God that you didn't know before...
I love church but probably because I grew up in it, and although most of what I grew up with is now tossed out the window, I had to develop my own relationship with God, not ride in on the coattails of my parents' faith.
Since you didn't grow up in church, it would make sense that it is not part of your world view. If you want to go to church, have the expectation that it is not perfect people, and you don't go there for them anyway. You go for a vertical purpose and that is relationship to God. After that, the horizontal purposes start appearing.
As a lesbian or bisexual or whatever, you need to connect with others who are like yourself and who have the same struggles and same revelations about God and homosexuality. I hope you find what you are looking for.

[Zerbie]

It sounds like church is not for me then.
I don't know.

[BruceChris]

You encountered some very judgmental people that called themselves Christians. Very unfortunately, your mother agreed with them.

Since then, I'll bet that you have met a great many people that are loving and accepting, who call themselves Christians. Many of them can be found on this forum quite often. You are still upset by the name, but I'll bet that you feel much much closer to THIS group than to THAT group. Do you think you could consider joining our group?

Namaste', Bruce Chris

[Zerbie]

You encountered some very judgmental people that called themselves Christians. Very unfortunately, your mother agreed with them.

Since then, I'll bet that you have met a great many people that are loving and accepting, who call themselves Christians. Many of them can be found on this forum quite often. You are still upset by the name, but I'll bet that you feel much much closer to THIS group than to THAT group. Do you think you could consider joining our group?

Namaste', Bruce Chris

Actually, it was only Jerry Falwell, or whoever that was on TV. He said that was "Christian," so blasphemy became how I defined Christian for 20 plus years - after all, he said that's what it was, so that's the definition. Ya know?

I've been noticing that in the advocacy and activism I get involved with, it's always the religious people I most prefer to hang out with as they have the viewpoint most like mine. They've almost all of them been Christians, but due to that definition I had in my head, it has taken years to make sense of them calling themselves by that term.

Anyway, I definitely like hanging out with y'all.:) I've started reading Matthew the last few days (in hotels, and they happen to have trilingual editions of the New Testament tucked into the drawers, so to be precise, I am practicing my French by reading l'évangile de matthieu.) As far as I've gotten so far, it makes sense, and I really don't see much in there that is poisonous or that could incite the kind of illogic and insanity one sometimes sees.

Hello, thread drift. :p

Well, my point in bumping this a couple weeks ago was getting at whether one has to adhere to any particular set of beliefs and guidelines in order to go visit churches. Or can you just pop in and hang around for a while. Someone PMed me and said I could just go visit, that you don't have to sign up for anything. So that's what I figured I would do.