Just a thought

[Progo35]

You know, I was just reading an archived article about Fred Phelps, and I was thinking: there are standards that Baptist ministers are expected to live up to in order to retain the title of "Reverand" or "Minister," and I wonder if it wouldn't be worthwhile to find out if there is a Baptist Council that oversees such behavior. Perhaps people, esp. Baptists, could write letters to that organization requesting that Phelps be investigated for his conduct toward gays.

Even though such organizations may not feel that being gay is in line with Biblical teaching, I think that many, many people probably also feel that Phelp's teachings are not in line with Biblical teaching, either. What I am saying is that the Baptists I know that feel compelled to mantain that gayness is a sin still would NEVER go and call their gay neighbors names or protest at a gay person's funeral. And, there are rules in the Baptist doctrine that preclude slander, hate base language, etc, which means that Phelps is in violation of those rules. While I'm not disputing the fact that Baptist doctrine surrounding being gay can adversely impact the mental health of gay individuals, it is one thing to mantain that gay sexual relations are a sin and another to call someone "fag," at least in terms of Baptist theology.

I think that this might be an excellent project for concerned Baptists to undertake. Perhaps if Baptist leaders publicly condemed Phelps by stating that they did not consider him to be a valid Baptist minister, it would improve relations between the Church and the gay community and steal some of Phelps' thunder.

[scott snedeker]

Phelps is helping us more than he ever dreamed. He is making homophobia so ugly that the majority of baptists would probably want to avoid any resemblence to him in any way.

The more he and his clan protest, the more people see how ugly homophobia is in any form.

I get a predatory gratification and smile each time he is seen on TV, because it is like watching a serial killer defiantly tying knots in a rope threatening to use it on his next victim while being completey unaware that it is around his own neck the whole time.:lol:

All we have to do is provide an example of nonviolence and love and the contrast between the two will do all the work!

[Progo35]

Yes...but I still think it would be beneficial to everyone if he shut up. Or, at least the Baptist denomination made some sort of statement separating itself from his activities. I really believe that according to "fundamentalist" Christian doctrine, Fred Phelps is NOT a Christian, and I think that many fundamentalists would agree-Phelps is no more a Christian than the Klan.

[Steven E. Webster]

Trouble is "Baptist" isn't exactly a denomination. Or, more precisely, there are many Baptist denominations and many local churches that are entirely independent of any denomination that call themselves "Baptist." Phelps is a religion all unto himself. He has the same liberty in this country to call himself "Baptist" or a "Reverend" as anyone else and no one can stop him.

I think no one really associates themselves with Phelps except those members of his pathetic little family (his "church" consists entirely of his family members). Even a couple of his children disassociated themselves from him as soon as they turned 18. One of them has said he's simply an abusive man through and through.

It's extremely rare to find any one defend Phelps' views. What the trouble is, though, is that the official positions of most churches--Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran aren't really much better than Phelps. Phelps does them a favor by giving them an outrageous extremist to which they can compare themselves favorably. But the truth is that they are little better in their denominational policies. They all treat gay people as inferior to heterosexual people.

Steven Webster

[wmanion]

Fred Phelps church is not under the domain of and of the Baptist associations that I am aware of that exists. In fact, his church is what folks refer to as TULIP Baptists. According to their group they are the only ones who are truely faithful to God's word. TULIP Baptists are those who belive in Calvanism and it caused quite a ripple through the Southern Baptist Churches, and the Independent Baptist Churches in the early 70's.

TULIP stands for the following.

Total Deprivation: We are all born sinful and alienated from God

Unconditional Election: God chose before the foundation of the world who would and who would not be saved.

Limited Atonement: That Jesus only died for those who were chosen to be saved otherwise his death would have been in vain.

Irresistable grace: That the chosen to be saved can not resist the Holy Spirit and will come to salvation.

Preservation of the Saints: Once Saved always saved. You were saved when you were chosen and you will be saved eternally.

If you have seen some of the signs inside Fred Phelps church you will have seen a sign that says TULIP on it.

No one governs Fred Phelps except Fred Phelps.

Bill

[Progo35]

Yes...but I know Christians who beleive all of those doctrines and would also freak if Fred Phelps and his ilk showed up at Gordon to do anything, not just because of image, but also because they legitimately find that reprehensible.

I agree with what's been said here, but it is also a fact that it is usually a huge scandal whenever a well-known pastor is caught looking at porn, committing adultery, or what have you. Although, perhaps the Baptists do not have a judiciary council in the same way that the Methodists do. But, if they did, that would seem to be their job-denouncing Phelps. If they do it for adulterors, they should do it for him, too.

[Steven E. Webster]

But, Progo, what do you want the Southern Baptist Convention to say? That Phelps is right that Matthew Shepherd is burning in hell, but it's just not polite to picket his funeral?

The truth is, the Southern Baptists are just as much against gay people as Fred Phelps is, they just want to be more polite about it.

That's why I say Fred Phelps does Baptists a favor by giving them someone who is so outrageously extreme that they look good by comparison.

Steven Webster

[Progo35]

I agree that by acting like a schmuck, Phelps does the gay cause a favor, but I think that in some cases you underestimate the humility of some people in the Baptist convention. Although I understand that this is still offensive to gay individuals, many individuals, including Baptists, that I know believe that where you go when you die depends upon your relationship with Christ, not on your sexual orientation/activities. Thus, I know several people who believe that gay sex is sinful but also believe that gay people who believe in Christ as savior will go to heaven because of Christ's sacrifice for them. And, the people that I am thinking about are also concerned about how to honor gay individuals as people and carry out their moral, Christian duty to defend their rights without compromising their beliefs-the beliefs being things that such individuals may or may not like or understand. Most of the Christians who I hang out with who believe that gay sex is a sin do not see it as a sin themselves, personally, and are not thrilled about that being in the Bible-they just don't want to tell others that it is okay to be gay if its not-that would be wrong, if in fact being gay is a sin.

But, beyond that, I do think that there are individuals of the Baptist Convention or whatever organization that would like to repair relations between the church and the gay community-but, I don't think its possible to know until they are asked/confronted about it. And, of course, I could be wrong.

What I would like the Baptist convention to say is something to the tune of "while traditional Baptist theology admonishes against gay relationships, it also forbids backbiting, slander and hatred and demands respect for all people as individuals. Thus, Fred Phelps has violated Christian teaching and the convention hereby states that Fred Phelps is not recognized as a Christian/Baptist by the convention." Like I said, I don't know if such a convention/judiciary board exists, but if it does, I feel strongly that they should do that. Otherwise, they aren't responding to anti-gay hatred in the same way that they respond to anti-semitism/pornography, which subtly condones Phelps actions.

[BrentRichards]

The SBC has made an official statement against Phelps on their website:

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#20

It's anti-Fred, but as has been observed, not substantively different ... They make the point of saying they don't really disagree with him about homosexuality, they're just more polite.

[KennethJ]

I wish all Christians who abhor homosexuals were as honest about their prejudice and bigotry as Phelps. It would be a lot less confusing... It's the mind games of "love the sinner, hate the sin" that really mess you up. If they would just say they hated us, then we could move on with our lives and get out of the pattern of abuse.

[Progo35]

I'm sorry, Kenneth, but I think that it is people on the other end of the spectrum that need to accept that following a religious tenet has nothing to do with hate for many people. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be upset about how the Church handles certain issues related to the gay community, but it is close minded and thus counter productive to believe that Christians who hold that belief hate gay individuals. It just isn't true.

[KennethJ]

Progo, I didn't say that ALL people who hold onto a religious tenet (of hating homosexuality, apparently) hate gay people. Most of them are trying to figure out a way to love us, and so they have to separate us from our sexual orientation (eg - You aren't really gay, you are broken and need to be fixed). It is a very sad situation for them, but it's a much sadder situation for those they are abusing.

I really don't care if Christians *think* they hate me or not. What I care about is being respected for the person I am. When people hold onto hateful religious tenets, they co-operate with hatred, despite their good intentions.

[Steven E. Webster]

I wish all Christians who abhor homosexuals were as honest about their prejudice and bigotry as Phelps. It would be a lot less confusing... It's the mind games of "love the sinner, hate the sin" that really mess you up. If they would just say they hated us, then we could move on with our lives and get out of the pattern of abuse.

Kenneth,
I hear what you are saying. Some of the patterns of church behavior are alot like abusive families. There is a double message or a double bind in the "love the sinner, hate the sin" message and alot else that churches pull.

The Surgeon General nominee, James Holsinger, is part of that segment of the United Methodist Church that claims to welcome LGBT people, but expects them to "repent" of their homosexuality. "We love you, but the part of you that is gay is unacceptable." That kind of teaching just drives people nuts.

At least with Fred Phelps you know exactly where you stand and who really is nuts.

Steven Webster

[scott snedeker]

I wish all Christians who abhor homosexuals were as honest about their prejudice and bigotry as Phelps. It would be a lot less confusing...

And they don't...... because I believe they are not courageous enough to take a long look at themselves. If they did I think they would see with uncomfortably true clarity this hideous part of their spiritual abomination. I consider Fred Phelps to be the incarnate homunculus of homophobia. Who would want to peer at their spiritual reflection and see him staring back at them? Did I mention that I feel great gratitude toward him for providing this service. This graven image that makes contrast so easy!

Denial is a common psychological mechanism we all employ to shield us from trauma. In this case I think the unshielded trauma would result in a blow to the homophobe's self esteem. And yes anyone who holds this belief is a homophobe, just as anyone who has any different feelings or beliefs toward different races is a racist by definition.

If you don't like the label, I think that is actually a good start! I believe it means something inside of you is offended. I believe it is your Internal spiritual guidence telling you that your spirtual hygeine needs cleaning.

It's the mind games of "love the sinner, hate the sin" that really mess you up. If they would just say they hated us, then we could move on with our lives and get out of the pattern of abuse.

I have no doubt that is simply the homophobe blaming gays for the unsettled feeling he/she gets from his/her spiritual guidence. I cannot believe that anyone but a homophobe says love the sinner hate the sin.

I know that I am attracted to men by [God's] design. If living true to my God-given gay nature is a sin, while a heterosexual can live true to his God-given nature with His and the church's celebration, then I can only conclude that God deliberately created me a second class human designed to suffer for his appeasement and with less entitlements to joy than straights.

Bullshit! I say!

That resembles a small, ignorant,cowardly, human mind's reasoning.........not at all like my characterization of the creator of the universe! I have a higher opinion of him personally!


I say this because it is the same game that a father who sexually molests his child plays to assuage his guilt. "I love you, but you made me do it. It's your fault."

Again an emotionally pathetic cowardly predator using the suffering of his vulnerable offspring for gratification in order to relieve the emotional distress caused by his personal sense of inadequacy.

Homophobia is something I think each person should desperately want to rid himself of by whatever means possible!