Religion/Spirituality

[keltic63]

I was looking at some funny bumper stickers online and I just found this one:

"Religion is for people afraid of going to hell; Spirituality is for those who have been there"

It struck me as a fair assessment of the stories of our own journeys. So many of us were "religious" before our crises, which for most of us seems to be our coming out. As we move beyond that, we find compassion for others, as well as a deep and growing spirituality that moves far beyond mere religion.

Just thought I'd put that out there. Any comments?

[paul]

Keltic,


I like the sentiment of that bumper sticker, but not sure about it's real content. I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is?

As to your take. I have found it a bigger crises in my life to be in the closet, though coming out has been one as well. I agree with you wholeheartedly that our experiences can serve to give us sympathy and compassion. It's like turning poison into wine.





my favorite bumper sticker to date is:

"God is coming soon, and is She mad!"

[Daniel]

"Religion is for people afraid of going to hell; Spirituality is for those who have been there"

This sticker resonates with me. That was my journey. My own sense is that one goes from being asleep to waking up. Pain does that. It gets your attention. It can also help us realize that everyone wants the same thing: happiness.

[keltic63]

This sticker resonates with me. That was my journey. My own sense is that one goes from being asleep to waking up. Pain does that. It gets your attention. It can also help us realize that everyone wants the same thing: happiness.

I don't know that I could have the happiness I now have, without having the pain that I've endured. When people take the time to talk to me about my experience, I eventually get around to saying something like "very little frightens me now; I've faced my biggest fear and survived. There isn't much left that would hurt me now." Which is not to say that I don't worry about things, I do plenty of that, but I now have strength that I did not have before. I know that if things get tough, I have the resources and tools to make it through. Religion doesn't do that for me, spirituality does.

[elcharrom]

It speaks the truth, because religion is something so empty, being religious almost sounds as if you have to go to church, or you have to obey His laws, as if it is something you do because of fear, instead of wanting to do it beacuse of the love for God.

[elcharrom]

I don't know that I could have the happiness I now have, without having the pain that I've endured. When people take the time to talk to me about my experience, I eventually get around to saying something like "very little frightens me now; I've faced my biggest fear and survived. There isn't much left that would hurt me now." Which is not to say that I don't worry about things, I do plenty of that, but I now have strength that I did not have before. I know that if things get tough, I have the resources and tools to make it through. Religion doesn't do that for me, spirituality does.
Amen haha. Amen to that, God built us to be fearless in His name, fearless in knowing He is there and that nothing can touch us without Him saying so, so that when it comes to be our time, we receive it with a smile.

[tdogg]

To me, religion is based on a person's relationships with other people involved in the religion. Spirituality is a direct connection between me and my God, my personal relationship with the being I connect with and worship.

Religion = people
Spirituality = my God

I totally get the bumper sticker. True to life for me as well.

[u-dog]

I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself.

[Zerbie]

I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself.

Oh, the very opposite!
If you and I ever meet will we be at each others' throats??

[u-dog]

Oh, the very opposite!
If you and I ever meet will we be at each others' throats??

I cannot imagine being at your throat dear one !! :love:

[Daniel]

I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

Buddhism also has the concept of community, in this case called the Sangha. The community is a very important part. It carries the 'tradition' forward and helps balance one's meditation practice, which is, of necessity, a private affair.

[wmanion]

I do not consider myself religious. I believe it is in James where it says true religion is to visit the widows and the fatherless. However, I do consider myself a spiritual person.

[NathanATX]

I know that God... Spirit... the Universe... has some kind of ministry/transformation calling on my life. It is my path... like a magnet, I always get drawn back to it. And I will be going to seminary to continue preparation for that calling...

But religion bores me at best and abhors me at worst.

So much to get my head around... :)

I spend a lot of time thinking about what can i do to promote spirituality without it becoming "religious."

[u-dog]

Buddhism also has the concept of community, in this case called the Sangha. The community is a very important part. It carries the 'tradition' forward and helps balance one's meditation practice, which is, of necessity, a private affair.


That doesn't surprise me. from the little I know about Budhism, that makes sense and of course it makes sense to me that the personal and the communal should balance each other.

I have a son who is feeling a little "itchy" inside of Christianity right now and I am hoping that when he decides to go exploring that he explores Budhism first. his best friend describes himself as a Budhist Episcopalian so its a good bet that that is where my son will explore first.

There is a Lutheran Baptismal hymn called "I was there to hear your borning cry" It is written from the perspective of God and it is God singing to the baptized child. One of the lines in it is "I was there the day you wandered off to see where demons dwell" Whenever we sing it... half the congregation is in tears.

I keep thinking about that line when I think about all of my sons' spiritual journeys. Not that budhism or other religions are demonic but just that wherever they journey, the Spirit of Christ will accompany them.

[paul]

"I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself."

u-dog,

:lol:. Whew, a Calvinist gay guy? That's more oxymoronic than "gay fundamentalist Christian."

I have observed the same thing about private individual spirituality leading to self worship. I also observe that much of the bible contains the purported experiences of just such people, and is reputed to have been written by the same. Moses was all alone up on the mountain getting the law. Abraham was alone when God told him to leave Babylon, sacrifice Issac. Hosea was alone when God told him to leave his wife and marry a harlot (gee, and I thought it was hard to come out to my wife, imagine telling your wife that God wants you to marry a harlot?). Paul was alone when he was transported up into the heavens. Peter was alone when he had the dream about including gentiles in the flock.

[u-dog]

"I personally don't believe in private individual spirituality. All my experience tells me that private religion/spirituality leads to self worship (a particularly virulant form of idolatry) Real spirituality takes place in the context of a community. There are private/personal/individual componants of the spiritual life but those need to exist in the context of a community that will anchor me and point out when God has left the building and its just me, myself, and I.

But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself."

u-dog,

:lol:. Whew, a Calvinist gay guy? That's more oxymoronic than "gay fundamentalist Christian."

I have observed the same thing about private individual spirituality leading to self worship. I also observe that much of the bible contains the purported experiences of just such people, and is reputed to have been written by the same. Moses was all alone up on the mountain getting the law. Abraham was alone when God told him to leave Babylon, sacrifice Issac. Hosea was alone when God told him to leave his wife and marry a harlot (gee, and I thought it was hard to come out to my wife, imagine telling your wife that God wants you to marry a harlot?). Paul was alone when he was transported up into the heavens. Peter was alone when he had the dream about including gentiles in the flock.

Brentrichards is a gay Calvinist too. We didn't choose to be gay... we were elected. (all in favor of Brent and Dave being gay... please say "aye" opposed same sign... carried. :lol:)


AND THEN all of those people went back down the mountain and rejoined their community who then remembered and told their stories for generation after generation... My point exactly.

[paul]

"AND THEN all of those people went back down the mountain and rejoined their community who then remembered and told their stories for generation after generation... My point exactly."

Well, actually, my point was more about your original one of the community checking the individual, which makes sense to me and would be the ideal. Honestly, I don't see a lot of that in the bible. Not that it didn't happen, I don't know, there just doesn't seem to be much of a record of it. For instance, when Paul said women cannot teach men, we cannot turn to the book of Jane to hear her response to his declaration, pointing out that "God had left the building." Most (not all) of the individuals in the bible seem dictatorial to me. I heard from God and this is what God said: "eating lobster is an abomination."

Fast forward to today. Many "Christians" have the same modus operandi, taking an unquestioning approach to the bible. They become dictatorial and they have further formed communities to affirm their assertions. So, communitees don't always work. Witness, Jim Jones. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Gay people know this form of "spirituality" well, what gay person hasn't heard Romans 1:24-27 quoted, ad naseum, as "God's" final word on us.

I go back to my original response to the bumper sticker that started all of this: "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is."

[Zerbie]

[B]", communitees don't always work. Witness, Jim Jones. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Gay people know this form of "spirituality" well, what gay person hasn't heard Romans 1:24-27 quoted, ad naseum, as "God's" final word on us.

I go back to my original response to the bumper sticker that started all of this: "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is."

Paul, what a wonderful opportunity for you to go within and find out!!

There are only two things that Christ said (that I know about, I mean!) which resonate to me, the girl who never went to church and has never read a Bible. Those two things are, nr.1: whatever you do to someone else (feeding the hungry, or not, etc) you have done to him.
nr.2 Within.

[BrentRichards]

Brentrichards is a gay Calvinist too. We didn't choose to be gay... we were elected. (all in favor of Brent and Dave being gay... please say "aye" opposed same sign... carried. :lol:)

You shoulda seen the campaign trail!

Worse yet, Paul, I'm a gay evangelical Republican Calvinist Wal-Mart shopper. I need to be medicated.

I have to agree with U-Dog on this one (and by have to, I mean I'm predestined to ... :0/), I get the creeping heebie jeebies every time I hear someone say "I can worship God on my own, why do I need the church?" ... although the church per se is not the essential element, other people ARE an essential element. The Lone Ranger was a great Sunday afternoon TV show, but it's a lousy spiritual growth strategy.

I think the trouble in defining "spiritual" is simply that it's too broad a concept. I tell the kids we work with (we are not a religious based youth foundation, but we encourage kids to pursue the religious faith of their/their family's choosing) that at the basic level, spirituality is just that morning when you wake up, look in the mirror, and realize that you are not looking at the center of the universe. It's that knowledge that "there's got to be more than this." But that's awfully broad. It seems to me that there has to be an influence of religion, in some form, to tell us much more than this.

[u-dog]

"AND THEN all of those people went back down the mountain and rejoined their community who then remembered and told their stories for generation after generation... My point exactly."

Well, actually, my point was more about your original one of the community checking the individual, which makes sense to me and would be the ideal. Honestly, I don't see a lot of that in the bible. Not that it didn't happen, I don't know, there just doesn't seem to be much of a record of it. For instance, when Paul said women cannot teach men, we cannot turn to the book of Jane to hear her response to his declaration, pointing out that "God had left the building." Most (not all) of the individuals in the bible seem dictatorial to me. I heard from God and this is what God said: "eating lobster is an abomination."

1) Paul never said that. It is an obvious later interpolation into his letter. Pure Pauline theology is that "in Christ there is no longer Jew or Gentile, Slave or free, Male or Female" Actually, ALL OF PAUL'S LETTERS are examples of the Community holding itself accountable to their shared values. That is EXACTLY why Paul writes every one of his letters. Somebody is moving away from the center and he is calling them back. The books of Nehemiah/Ezra and Jonah are another good example. After the disaster of the Exile the Jews are confused about the meaning of that experience. Jonah and Isaiah understand it to mean that Israel is called to be a light to the nations and has a universal outward call into the world. The writers of Nehemiah and Ezra see the experience as meaning that Israel should draw inward, distrust strangers, and only marry other other Jews. BOTH positions are preserved by the tradition

Fast forward to today. Many "Christians" have the same modus operandi, taking an unquestioning approach to the bible. They become dictatorial and they have further formed communities to affirm their assertions. So, communitees don't always work. Witness, Jim Jones. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Gay people know this form of "spirituality" well, what gay person hasn't heard Romans 1:24-27 quoted, ad naseum, as "God's" final word on us. And then there are the liberal and moderate churches and the liturgical churches and the Eastern churches all of whom raise up another point of view that calls that conservative BS to account. The process isn't immediate. its glacially slow.

I go back to my original response to the bumper sticker that started all of this: "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is."

[paul]

u-dog!!

:lol:, that was funny what you did with my last sentence. Since you're quick to join depricating my self, I'll further qualify that I have never met a person who I am convinced has figured it out either.

I almost made the same point of the liberal, etc., church checking the conservative, my brain went there also. I appreciate that liberal scholarship is willing to question the canon and the whole notion of scriptural inerrancy (you don't sound like a Calvinist ;) ), also are able to question the traditional authorship of the various books of the bible. The sticking point for me is not so much method employed by the various divisions of Christianity, but sincerity. I have met people in all walks that strick me as completely sincere. You seem completely sincere to me in your beliefs, even though I have only known you a short time. But, I have met real Calvinists who also are sincere in their beliefs. Each side has their compelling intellectual arguments as to why they are right and the other is wrong. Each side is certain, sincerely, that the other side just doesn't get it. Gone are the days of Elijah where the one party is proven to be right and the other wrong by God him/herself by an actual definitive demonstration that goes beyond human assertion. I see nice people with beliefs My wife is the nicest, sincerest person I know. She is also certain with a smile on her face and love in her heart that I'm going to go to hell if I don't repent of being gay. She is willing to stay married because she knows that is what's best for me. What informs that belief? Why, the bible and "Gods Spirit."

I have yet to meet someone who can draw the line between intellect, emotion and "spirit." Who can give a standard by which any can measure what is from God?

[tdogg]

the problem with getting others involved in 'my' spirituality, is that, well others are involved. Then it's about the people, not God. Pleasing the people, living up to people's standards, other people defining 'sin', telling me what's right and wrong. There is very little consistency and cohesiveness with hoards of others are what its all about.

Not to say, considering spirituality to be something private between me and my God doesn't allow for partcipation by others, but I just don't base my spirituality on human thought. Just like I don't base my beliefs on the literal Bible (whatever version). I use it as a guide, with much prayer and meditation, similar to how I would use the input of people. My thoughts and attitude towards spirtuality are in part a result of the effects of allowing others to rule me religiously.

Here is an example of human accountability: a church I once attended and was actively involved in, had a small congregation that started out as a home bible study. Eventually it grew enough where a rented gymnasium and classrooms were needed for Sunday school and services. The worship leader was a very faithful and wonderful young man, and his wife was a singer in the worship group. They were VERY active in the church, leading worship, teaching Sunday school, always giving to others. Apparently the pastor (who was not supposed to even know how much anyone gave to the church) felt this family was not tithing properly, went to their home with his most high elder and proceeded to give the couple a 2 hour lecture about how they needed to give more to the church.

Bunch o' crap. Don't go there anymore. I have yet to regularly attend a church where this sort of thing isn't happening. That's what happens when one gives another the authority to judge them.

[u-dog]

u-dog!!

:lol:, that was funny what you did with my last sentence. Since you're quick to join depricating my self, I'll further qualify that I have never met a person who I am convinced has figured it out either.[

:confused: I don't know what you are talking about here :confused: I went back and read my post and I don't think I said anything about your last sentence... cuz I don't have a clue how to answer it. glad you got a laugh out of it though :confused: Being unintentionally funny is better than nothing I guess.

I almost made the same point of the liberal, etc., church checking the conservative, my brain went there also. I appreciate that liberal scholarship is willing to question the canon and the whole notion of scriptural inerrancy (you don't sound like a Calvinist ;) ), also are able to question the traditional authorship of the various books of the bible. The sticking point for me is not so much method employed by the various divisions of Christianity, but sincerity. I have met people in all walks that strick me as completely sincere. You seem completely sincere to me in your beliefs, even though I have only known you a short time. But, I have met real Calvinists who also are sincere in their beliefs.

Excuse me, but... I am a "real" Calvinist. I've read the Institutes of the Christian Religion from cover to cover and everything


Each side has their compelling intellectual arguments as to why they are right and the other is wrong. Each side is certain, sincerely, that the other side just doesn't get it.

I think Republicans are wrong. They just don't get it... I'm right. I totally get it. The country is in a total mess because of them. It's not rocket science what the hell are they thinking? But the fact that Brent is a political Moron and I'm right doesn't mean that I stop believing in the United States or politics or the constitution. People see what they want to see... what they are prepared to see on a whole variety of subjects and in every aspect of life. Being selectively blind is part of what it means to be a human being. So what's your point?

Gone are the days of Elijah where the one party is proven to be right and the other wrong by God him/herself by an actual definitive demonstration that goes beyond human assertion.

You could soak the sofa with water and see if you or your wife can pray it into catching fire... but youre right... its likely not going to spontaneously combust. :disagree:

I see nice people with beliefs My wife is the nicest, sincerest person I know. She is also certain with a smile on her face and love in her heart that I'm going to go to hell if I don't repent of being gay. She is willing to stay married because she knows that is what's best for me. What informs that belief? Why, the bible and "Gods Spirit."

I'm sure that your wife is a very nice person. I am sure that she is very sincere in her beliefs. I'm sure that she is probably going to go to heaven. I'm sure that she is going be very surprised :eek: to see you there too. Lots of "wrong people" are going to be surprised about lots of stuff. I'm looking forward to that personally



I have yet to meet someone who can draw the line between intellect, emotion and "spirit." Who can give a standard by which any can measure what is from God?

What surprises you about that? What is in the creation can be measured. It exists in (however many) dimensions. things are tall, wide, and deep. things have a beginning and an end and the distance between the two can be measured. God and the world of the Spirit are outside of the creation and have no dimensions which can be measured. Spirit... that is, "the thing that connects us to the divine" is likewise without dimension and likewise cannot be measured in the way that you would like. My experience of the Pneumenous is ALL tied up with intellect, emotion, experience, serendipity, etc. Its like a complex and intricate braid that can't be undone to examine the individual strands.

Living a life with God is like floating in a lake. You don't know for certain that there is water there or that the water will hold you up until give yourself to it. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. There are lots of us out here floating around, doing the back stroke, floating on our backs singing hymns at the top of our lungs (my grandmother used to do that in Lake Erie :lol:) we see you standing on the beach and we'd love to have you come out and join us but we can't prove to you that there is water or that it will hold you up. finally you will either decide to give yourself to the water that may or may not be there... or you won't. Finally Nice people with stories is all there is. sorry. :love:

[BrentRichards]

But the fact that Brent is a political Moron and I'm right doesn't mean that I stop believing in the United States or politics or the constitution.

No, I'm Presbyterian, and I've never even been to Utah!

[paul]

U-dog,
" I don't know what you are talking about here I went back and read my post and I don't think I said anything about your last sentence... cuz I don't have a clue how to answer it. glad you got a laugh out of it though Being unintentionally funny is better than nothing I guess.

oh. I thought you were being witty, addressing my other comments then leaving my statement "I have yet to figure out what "spiritual" is" just kind of dangling at the end. As if to affirm that statement. I read to far between the lines :o, or, you are sometimes unconsciously funny.

"Excuse me, but... I am a "real" Calvinist. I've read the Institutes of the Christian Religion from cover to cover and everything"

:eek::o Really? Well, please excuse me also while I attempt to extricate my foot from my mouth. In my very weak defense you did say: "But then I'm a Calvinist... I can't help myself." I see now you were only half joking. I spent much of my youth in Calvinist circles and I associate "Calvinist" with "fundamentalist" (you're not a fundamentalist too are you?), since that's all I've ever known. You seem to be a "liberal" Christian and I have never put "liberal" and "Calvin" together to describe a person. I guess I don't get out enough, I've never met a gay guy who embraces the teachings of Calvinism. As I consider it though, why not? I'm not sure why, I'll have to think on it. Either way, I'm sorry for being presumptuous, I need to be more careful.


"I think Republicans are wrong. They just don't get it... I'm right. I totally get it. The country is in a total mess because of them. It's not rocket science what the hell are they thinking? But the fact that Brent is a political Moron and I'm right doesn't mean that I stop believing in the United States or politics or the constitution. People see what they want to see... what they are prepared to see on a whole variety of subjects and in every aspect of life. Being selectively blind is part of what it means to be a human being. So what's your point?"

Uh oh, I think I'm falling in love :D. You're brilliant and already got my point of course: "Brent is a political Moron." I admit that I like your selective blindness better than most, it seems a lot more inclusive. My bigger concern is the unselective blindness we all suffer from.

"I'm sure that your wife is a very nice person. I am sure that she is very sincere in her beliefs. I'm sure that she is probably going to go to heaven. I'm sure that she is going be very surprised to see you there too. Lots of "wrong people" are going to be surprised about lots of stuff. I'm looking forward to that personally"

Yeah, this is what I meant in the previous paragraph about you being "more inclusive." Frankly, I'd rather you be writing legislation than the other type. You're a heck of a lot nicer than the people who take the opposite attitude of "there's going to be many surprised people in hell." It's that "sure" vs. "probably" part about going to heaven where it starts to break down for me (which is it?). My question to my self about this and other pertinent questions was "how do you know?" And I couldn't answer that, so I took a giant step back.

"What surprises you about that? What is in the creation can be measured. It exists in (however many) dimensions. things are tall, wide, and deep. things have a beginning and an end and the distance between the two can be measured. God and the world of the Spirit are outside of the creation and have no dimensions which can be measured. Spirit... that is, "the thing that connects us to the divine" is likewise without dimension and likewise cannot be measured in the way that you would like. My experience of the Pneumenous is ALL tied up with intellect, emotion, experience, serendipity, etc. Its like a complex and intricate braid that can't be undone to examine the individual strands. "

I'm not surprised about that. I wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say. When it comes to standards of living, there are a thousand thousand camps all claiming to "know God's will." I don't doubt you want to "know God's will" and I don't doubt that I wanted that as well. I just couldn't find a way where I could determine what that is. Plenty of people will tell you what God's will is, but they cannot show you how it is indeed God's will beyond their assertions.


Living a life with God is like floating in a lake. You don't know for certain that there is water there or that the water will hold you up until give yourself to it. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. There are lots of us out here floating around, doing the back stroke, floating on our backs singing hymns at the top of our lungs (my grandmother used to do that in Lake Erie ) we see you standing on the beach and we'd love to have you come out and join us but we can't prove to you that there is water or that it will hold you up. finally you will either decide to give yourself to the water that may or may not be there... or you won't.

I'd be willing to bet you'd like some of my sermons (real sermons, I was a preacher at one time) on faith. I've been in the water for some time and almost drowned, so I am on the shore now.

Finally Nice people with stories is all there is. sorry.

Yeah, that's kind of how I see it. But it's okay, it's nice to know nice people, no need to be "sorry." I much prefer nice people to mean people.

[u-dog]

"Excuse me, but... I am a "real" Calvinist. I've read the Institutes of the Christian Religion from cover to cover and everything"

Well, from the perspective of a fundamentalist I probably seem "liberal" but my theology is really very orthodox. I can say the Apostle's creed without crossing my fingers or blushing or mumbling or ANYTHING. Politically and Socially? Yeah, I am totally liberal. theologically? not so much. Neo-orthodox and Reformed describe me pretty accurately.

I believe that the REAL stretch comes with trying to be a Calvinist and a fundamentalist/literalist. Calvin taught that JESUS is the Word of God and that the Word comes to us through Scripture, the sacraments, and preaching BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. the book itself (sans Spirit) is just a book. I think he would judge most fundamentalists today as Biblical idolaters (as I do) . The essential hallmarks of a Calvinist are the total depravity of humanity(which seems self-evident to me ... read the newspaper) and the Sovereign Grace of God (to save whomever He pleases). For a Calvinist the primary sin of humanity... the one that was committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden and every person since... Is idolatry (putting something other than God at the center of life) and the worst kind of idolatry is putting oneself at the center of life.

I don't like the idea of predestination very much... but then... Calvin didn't like it that much either. CS Lewis has helped me to reconcile the Omniscience and Sovereignty of God to the idea of Free will for which I am grateful.


[quote]Uh oh, I think I'm falling in love :D. You're brilliant and already got my point of course: "Brent is a political Moron." I admit that I like your selective blindness better than most, it seems a lot more inclusive. My bigger concern is the unselective blindness we all suffer from.

Sorry. I'm spoken for! but I like you too ;) . I think conservatism/republicanism is a temporary condition for Brent because the fact is... He ISN'T a moron. We all suffer from blindnesses that we choose (usually out of fear) and ones we DON'T choose. It's the human condition.


I'd be willing to bet you'd like some of my sermons (real sermons, I was a preacher at one time) on faith. I've been in the water for some time and almost drowned, so I am on the shore now.

Well... blow the water outa your sinuses and when you're ready come on back in! the water's great!

I have to say that I have always experienced fundamentalists and atheists as being very similar kinds of people. The hunger for certainty in both always seems so INTENSE. Atheists are PISSED OFF because they can't find it and Fundamentalists have fooled themselves into believing that they HAVE found it. There are a bunch of us in the middle who just love Jesus and are willing to leave the certainty til later. I recommend this.

[paul]

There are a bunch of us in the middle who just love Jesus and are willing to leave the certainty til later

That would probably come closest to describing me. I'm big on saying "I don't know." But I still really like the teachings of Jesus, ICor. 13...many wouldn't know that I'm not a "Christian" unless I told them. I don't call myself an atheist either...I just don't "know" enough to call myself either.

[u-dog]

There are a bunch of us in the middle who just love Jesus and are willing to leave the certainty til later

That would probably come closest to describing me. I'm big on saying "I don't know." But I still really like the teachings of Jesus, ICor. 13...many wouldn't know that I'm not a "Christian" unless I told them. I don't call myself an atheist either...I just don't "know" enough to call myself either.

Maybe I should have said we can leave the PROOF til later. I KNOW there's a God... I'm swimming in him all the time. I just can't prove it to you... and don't feel any real need to prove it to me

[BrentRichards]

I'm gone most of the week, and I take a royal beating in this thread in my absence. Gee, thanks!

[paul]

I'm gone most of the week, and I take a royal beating in this thread in my absence. Gee, thanks!

Hey yeah Brent I noticed. What is it between you and u-dog anyway?

[u-dog]

Hey yeah Brent I noticed. What is it between you and u-dog anyway?


He has a crush on me! :rolleyes: Its all very embarrassing.
;)

[BrentRichards]

He has a crush on me! :rolleyes: Its all very embarrassing.
;)

Yeah, and he thinks I'm goofy looking. There's gonna be a nasty cat-fight with hissing and fur flying sooner or later.

[u-dog]

Yeah, and he thinks I'm goofy looking. There's gonna be a nasty cat-fight with hissing and fur flying sooner or later.

I meant that in the BEST POSSIBLE way, Brent... really. I sorta like the goofy look

[BrentRichards]

I meant that in the BEST POSSIBLE way, Brent... really. I sorta like the goofy look

No matter, Pablo thinks I'm hot, anyway ... :D and :wave:

[u-dog]

No matter, Pablo thinks I'm hot, anyway ... :D and :wave:

Oh come on! Pablo thinks EVERYBODY is hot!! (by the way Pablo, did you recieve that copy of Calvin's Institutes in Braille that I sent you? Let me know when it arrives)

But never mind. Your subtle theology, caring compassionate heart, and delightful sense of humor more than make up for your goofiness AND your Republican-ness.

[BrentRichards]

Oh come on! Pablo thinks EVERYBODY is hot!! (by the way Pablo, did you recieve that copy of Calvin's Institutes in Braille that I sent you? Let me know when it arrives)

But never mind. Your subtle theology, caring compassionate heart, and delightful sense of humor more than make up for your goofiness AND your Republican-ness.

Push me, dog boy, push me. We'll see...

And thank you for the compliment ... how'd you let that slip?

[u-dog]

Push me, dog boy, push me. We'll see...

And thank you for the compliment ... how'd you let that slip?


As my sister said to my mother when she was 4 after having been rolled down the hill in her new coat by a group of rough-housing boys.

"Mommy! Boys don't tease you 'less they like you"

I'm not admiting to a crush or anything (well, maybe what straight boys these days are describing as a "man-crush" ) but I do enjoy your friendship immensely Brent. And for the record I don't REALLY think that you are goofy looking.:)

[BrentRichards]

As my sister said to my mother when she was 4 after having been rolled down the hill in her new coat by a group of rough-housing boys.

"Mommy! Boys don't tease you 'less they like you"

I'm not admiting to a crush or anything (well, maybe what straight boys these days are describing as a "man-crush" ) but I do enjoy your friendship immensely Brent. And for the record I don't REALLY think that you are goofy looking.:)

I know we're "only foolin'" ... I've often said to people something quite similar ... I don't ever pick on anyone I genuinely dislike, that's too real! So if I pick on you, you know I don't mean it.

By the way, what straight boys are you hanging out with? Man-crush? I've missed that one.

[u-dog]

I know we're "only foolin'" ... I've often said to people something quite similar ... I don't ever pick on anyone I genuinely dislike, that's too real! So if I pick on you, you know I don't mean it.

By the way, what straight boys are you hanging out with? Man-crush? I've missed that one.

It's a term I have overheard my twin sons using. it seems to be a way to refer to strong feelings between straight men. Appearantly you can append the prefix "man" to a lot of things to make it mean "not gay". I don't fully understand the nuances but I'll keep my eye on the phenomenon and let you know what I learn.:confused:

The ways of straight people are mysterious and confusing sometimes, no?

[Pablo Rafael]

No matter, Pablo thinks I'm hot, anyway ... :D and :wave:

Darn right! Now you're finally getting the message. (I mean, am I right everybody? the guy is downright cute.) Brent, I notice you're getting nervous. I'm not hitting on you. My thoughts and motives are completely honorable.

Oh come on! Pablo thinks EVERYBODY is hot!! (by the way Pablo, did you recieve that copy of Calvin's Institutes in Braille that I sent you? Let me know when it arrives).

Cheap shot, cheap shot! I resent that, Dave. I have the highest standards and only think the coolest of guys are "hot". For instance I don't think you are "hot" at all, in fact... Oops, my mother said "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

And what is it with you and Calvin? You think that we Catholics are totally clueless when it comes to Reformation theology and history. Well, I know all about Calvin, I'd like you to know. I really don't understand why you quote him.

Actually I think of the two, Hobbes is by far the smartest. AND he has better people skills.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

PS: Uhhh... Brent, just for future reference: Would it have been OK if I HAD BEEN hitting on you?

[BrentRichards]

Darn right! Now you're finally getting the message. (I mean, am I right everybody? the guy is downright cute.) Brent, I notice you're getting nervous. I'm not hitting on you. My thoughts and motives are completely honorable.

(crestfallen)



PS: Uhhh... Brent, just for future reference: Would it have been OK if I HAD BEEN hitting on you?

(perks up again!)


We have totally hijacked this thread into shameless silliness and flirting. Not that I'm apologizing, just sayin. (Personally, I believe silliness has a major place in spirituality ... and I'm not kidding there.)

[paul]

(Personally, I believe silliness has a major place in spirituality ... and I'm not kidding there.)

I agree Brent. Silliness can open a door or window to a closed and dark room. It can be a way in to a place that might otherwise stay locked tight. Silliness removes threat.

[u-dog]

I agree Brent. Silliness can open a door or window to a closed and dark room. It can be a way in to a place that might otherwise stay locked tight. Silliness removes threat.


Silliness doesn't just push the envelope it removes the envelope and turns it inside out. It removes artificial boundaries to thinking, rearranges them and puts them down in totally new places.

[shadeseraph]

I am taking some days of prayer and meditation with another group of gay men. Please pray that the retreat is full of grace and blessings and for safe travel and God's help and protrection.
________
Black asian (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/287/asian/videos/1)

[Blockwell]

I know I am not religious, but I often wonder if how I live and I how I view the world would even be recognized as spiritual. Leaving religion behind when I accepted myself as gay seemed like a no-brainer for me. The churches I had been involved with would not accept me for who I was, and to be honest I never truly believed in any of the supernatural components of Christianity. With this in mind the idea of looking for a religious community that would accept me just didn’t seem necessary or even the right thing to do. I already had a conviction that many people who were the most vocal opponents of homosexuality had already been ‘religion shopping’ for a faith that fit their mindset, so it seemed hypocritical for me to do the same.

I think the vast majority of people have this sense that there is more to life than meets the eye. I recognize this, and I even respect it, but I don’t share it myself. I don’t know why I am unusual in this regard. Everything I have ever experienced seems perfectly ‘natural’ to me. I feel perfectly content to live my life within the confines of the viewable and the tangible. That said, there have been times when the word ‘spiritual’ seems like the only way I can convey the real meaning of what I trying to explain.

For those of you who may have read my few posts, you know that I lost my first partner in an aviation accident when I was 27 years old. I did not take his death well. For the next two years I abused cocaine in an attempt to deal with the pain. I had lost my job and was days away from homelessness when I got into recovery. (I have been clean for 18 years now) There was a point near the end of my struggle that I typically call my ‘spiritual bottom.’ I just can’t think of a better way to describe it. During this period I did the worst thing I have ever done to anyone. At the time I was working as a bank teller and one of my coworkers had dropped $500 from his till on the way to his station. I took it. Not only did I steal it, but to make matters worse my boss was convinced that my coworker had stolen it for himself. My boss (and a pretty good friend too) told me, “Dennis, I know he stole the money, I just know it. I would stake my life on it.” My coworker was fired. I did not feel guilt, I did not feel shame. Instead I just felt empty. It felt like something had left me from deep inside. I utilized that emptiness to my advantage and began to find other ways to steal from work. I never got caught. It was only after I had recovered that my shame and guilt returned. Although I was never able to make restitution directly (Try find finding a specific Jose Lopez in California and you can understand the predicament) I did make restitution through anonymous acts of kindness and generosity whenever I could.

I don’t know whether or not spirituality has a supernatural origin, or whether it is just something in my mind, but I know it has a place within me, and I like myself better when it is nurtured and cared for.:o

Blockwell

[Zerbie]

I know I am not religious, but I often wonder if how I live and I how I view the world would even be recognized as spiritual. Leaving religion behind when I accepted myself as gay seemed like a no-brainer for me. The churches I had been involved with would not accept me for who I was, and to be honest I never truly believed in any of the supernatural components of Christianity. With this in mind the idea of looking for a religious community that would accept me just didn’t seem necessary or even the right thing to do. I already had a conviction that many people who were the most vocal opponents of homosexuality had already been ‘religion shopping’ for a faith that fit their mindset, so it seemed hypocritical for me to do the same.

I think the vast majority of people have this sense that there is more to life than meets the eye. I recognize this, and I even respect it, but I don’t share it myself. I don’t know why I am unusual in this regard. Everything I have ever experienced seems perfectly ‘natural’ to me. I feel perfectly content to live my life within the confines of the viewable and the tangible. That said, there have been times when the word ‘spiritual’ seems like the only way I can convey the real meaning of what I trying to explain.

For those of you who may have read my few posts, you know that I lost my first partner in an aviation accident when I was 27 years old. I did not take his death well. For the next two years I abused cocaine in an attempt to deal with the pain. I had lost my job and was days away from homelessness when I got into recovery. (I have been clean for 18 years now) There was a point near the end of my struggle that I typically call my ‘spiritual bottom.’ I just can’t think of a better way to describe it. During this period I did the worst thing I have ever done to anyone. At the time I was working as a bank teller and one of my coworkers had dropped $500 from his till on the way to his station. I took it. Not only did I steal it, but to make matters worse my boss was convinced that my coworker had stolen it for himself. My boss (and a pretty good friend too) told me, “Dennis, I know he stole the money, I just know it. I would stake my life on it.” My coworker was fired. I did not feel guilt, I did not feel shame. Instead I just felt empty. It felt like something had left me from deep inside. I utilized that emptiness to my advantage and began to find other ways to steal from work. I never got caught. It was only after I had recovered that my shame and guilt returned. Although I was never able to make restitution directly (Try find finding a specific Jose Lopez in California and you can understand the predicament) I did make restitution through anonymous acts of kindness and generosity whenever I could.

I don’t know whether or not spirituality has a supernatural origin, or whether it is just something in my mind, but I know it has a place within me, and I like myself better when it is nurtured and cared for.:o

Blockwell

God, Dennis!!!!! How frightening that you wound up with such an "emptiness!" Terrifying!

I'm glad you had enough *you* left to overcome that. Yeah, that was DEFINITELY a spiritual crisis.

[paul]

Worse yet, Paul, I'm a gay evangelical Republican Calvinist Wal-Mart shopper. I need to be medicated.


:lol: ohno ohno, you're shattering all my stereotypes.

truth be known, I am rather fond of Andrew Sullivan's writing

[paul]

Thank you for having the courage to share some of your story. I am sorry for your loss. Life has a way of leaving it's mark. I'm glad you recovered and are here to be a part of this community.

[jessica99]

Hi,


Here is my view on spirituality.

There is energy in everything in the Universe. Everything that you can see, even a person, is all made up of energy. Thoughts are also made up of energy. This is the basic thing to understanding how to manifest healing in your life. All the energy in the Universe has a certain vibration to it because it is always moving. Getting what you want is easy when you match your own energy vibration to that which you want. Anything you want can be yours.