Lifestyle

[sailaway58]

So far I haven't decided which is more disturbing, how much we are alike or how much we are different.
Sunday the Pastor spoke on the lifestyle of a Christian. All though it had nothing to do with Gay life I couldn't help but wonder if his choice of words might be offensive to my "friends" (I haven't really been here to have established friendship) here at Soulforce.
I don't think anything would have been misconstrued that way but I couldn't help but think of how that particular word is offensive when use improperly here.
All that made me wonder how people here would describe the lifestyle of a believer. What lines shouldn't be crossed? In leisure what activities would we agree are spiritually unhealthy?
How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?
Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?
By the way, I lead a small group and last night I mentioned I had joined a kind of gay Christian web site. It got kind of quiet. After explaining that I haven’t always agreed with the traditional Church view about same sex attraction and that I believe that Christ’s love was for EVERYONE, people began to loosen up a little. I said we accept people that bring all kinds of baggage to the church and have no problem loving them, why then can’t we reach out in love to someone that is only interested in being who they are? Whether you believe it is a choice or it is just who they are, isn’t our responsibility to love others period?
There was a little nervous tension but I think my point was made in a positive way with them.
And if I might be honest because it may seem that I am a pretty understanding guy, sometimes I want to run away from the whole issue, but for some reason I can’t.

[Zerbie]

So far I haven't decided which is more disturbing, how much we are alike or how much we are different.
Sunday the Pastor spoke on the lifestyle of a Christian.

All that made me wonder how people here would describe the lifestyle of a believer. What lines shouldn't be crossed? In leisure what activities would we agree are spiritually unhealthy?

It will probably be agreed that spiritual unhealthy activities are anything that harms ourselves or others.

How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?

Now *that* is going to depend upon *which* gay christian and *which* gay non-christian you choose to compare.

Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?

That will mostly depend upon which individual you talk to. Since I'm not a gay christian, I will try leaving these topics for those who *are.*

By the way, I lead a small group and last night I mentioned I had joined a kind of gay Christian web site. It got kind of quiet. After explaining that I haven’t always agreed with the traditional Church view about same sex attraction and that I believe that Christ’s love was for EVERYONE, people began to loosen up a little. I said we accept people that bring all kinds of baggage to the church and have no problem loving them, why then can’t we reach out in love to someone that is only interested in being who they are?
And if I might be honest because it may seem that I am a pretty understanding guy, sometimes I want to run away from the whole issue, but for some reason I can’t.

That's a very good sign in all kinds of ways. I can't leave it alone either. Honestly, the whole gay topic in the political arena still scares me. It scares me to get into arguments with my senators' staffers, and it scares me to stand on a streetcorner in public wearing a tee shirt with a pro-LGBT message. But I can't stop doing it, because I need to do these things. My soul and my conscience NEED me to do so, or else, who would I be? Understanding makes for responsibility. We are responsible for what we understand.

Thank you, Sailor, for what you did last night. :pray: It was courageous. Your caring and efforts will not be lost on the gay community, but more importantly, your own conscience and your own integrity are much strengthened by the fact that you stood for love.

[Pablo Rafael]

How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?
Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?


Tim,

It is my personal belief that the lives of gay Christians and straight Christians should look exactly the same. They should be the same beacuse all of our relationships should be grounded in the concept of grace. God loves us with an unselfish love; he gave himself to die for us so that we might have life. Therefore our actions likewise need to be based on love toward God and love towards each other.

I believe that the differences between gay relationships and straight relationships are simply artificial constructs of our society. I think that God wishes all relationships to be based on love. Part of that love involves forgiveness when others wrong us or we wrong them.

Personally I believe that fidelty in marriage is a form of love to one's partner. I believe that marriage is the committment of two people to each other; whether it is recognized by a governmental authority doesn't matter. So yes, I believe that the place for sex is within marriage regardless of the ages or genders of the individuals.

As Christians we also must realize that we will never reach the ideal of perfection. All of us have weaknesses and all of us need forgiveness. No one has room to stand in judgement on another. Our Christian "lifestyle" should be simply that others can see the love that we have for everyone.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[paul]

"All that made me wonder how people here would describe the lifestyle of a believer. What lines shouldn't be crossed? In leisure what activities would we agree are spiritually unhealthy?
How is the "lifestyle" for a gay Christian different than that of a gay non-Christian?
Do you believe in abstinence till union? I know in most states marriage is out of the question, but the equivalent spiritually I guess for the sake of the argument.
At least would you encourage a young teen to be celibate till… I don't know, college?
We do have lifestyles and I agree that should not be in reference to orientation; so, how does our Christian walk look similar? How might it look different?"

Sailaway,

You're not Baptist, are you? :)

I think the answers to your questions depend on what you use to inform or define your Christianity. I quip about your not being baptist, because their definition of "Christian" does not include glbt.

Some "Christians" use the bible. Some use only parts of the bible (like the "teachings of Christ"). Then, of course, there's the endless arguments of interpretation. You use the term "spiritually." Can you define what you mean by that? The reason I ask is because there is a teaching in Christianity that directs one to "walk by the spirit." It seems to me that if you can figure out what that means and how to do that, it would be the answer to your questions.

[pnggrad79]

Given the seemingly confusing Biblical mores on sex, I don't know that remaining celibate before marriage is what is called for here. For example, Abraham slept with two women, David had several, so did Solomon. These men were pillars of the faith, so how and where did it change from this to "one man, one woman". Moreover, why should gay people adhere to such constraints? I think that since gay relationships are not allowed to mature in society because they are taboo, sex is all we have. We aren't allowed to date, as straight people do. We aren't allowed to have an open relationships, and when we do, for some it is at great cost. We aren't allowed to get married, so we have to jump through hoops to see that our loved ones are taken care of and such. We aren't allowed to "find the right one".
I am not for bed hopping, but at the same time, I admire glbt folks who decide to wait until they are in a committed relationship, but I cannot and will not point a finger at the other glbt people who have sex with whomever, whenever. That is something they have to work out for themselves.

[Zerbie]

I think that since gay relationships are not allowed to mature in society because they are taboo, sex is all we have. We aren't allowed to date, as straight people do. We aren't allowed to have an open relationships, and when we do, for some it is at great cost. s.

Oh PNG. Have you ever thought of getting out of Texas?

[sailaway58]

Thanks everyone, for all your comments. My wife and I are on this journey together. We are both reading your comments and feel a better understanding of this community even in these few days.
One of the funniest comments made to me so far was from a Christian brother. I told him I was on this quest for understanding and He said, “Well don’t try it”.:eek:
I think I can handle all of this as long as I don’t have to become liberal and like Hillary.;)
Finally,
I feel a little guardedness from some of you and I don’t blame anyone for that.
One thing I want to make clear is I am not here to decide if I should judge GLBT.
We won’t agree on many things and as we disagree we will make judgments about each other. Judge my motive, my ideas and my demeanor. Judge our friendship compatibility, my hair style or my shirt. But let’s not judge the others soul. As we have the free exchange of ideas I understand I am a guest in your world here and have not come to save you, change you or harass.
Let time prove this to be true.

[Daniel]

One of the funniest comments made to me so far was from a Christian brother. I told him I was on this quest for understanding and He said, “Well don’t try it”.

I think there is more that one way to understand something, after all, we have a head and a heart, and they don't always agree, do they?

Our heads can have a hard time wrapping itself around information that makes no sense to us, either because we have no connection to it, lack experience, or simply have habitual ways of thinking which are unexamined.

The heart, I would wager, doesn't see things in the same way. And for me anyway, this is where compassion comes into play. My sense is that it is possible for the compassionate heart to 'understand' many things which the mind finds troublesome, annoying, or downright repulsive. It connects in ways which may even confound the head.

I think we need more of this.

[sjbouza]

I think there is more that one way to understand something, after all, we have a head and a heart, and they don't always agree, do they?

Our heads can have a heard time wrapping itself around information that makes no sense to us, either because we have no connection to it, lack experience, or simply have habitual ways of thinking which are unexamined.

The heart, I would wager, doesn't see things is the same way. And for me anyway, this is where compassion comes into play. My sense is that it is possible for the compassionate heart to 'understand' many things which the mind finds troublesome, annoying, or downright repulsive. It connects in ways which may even confound the head.

I think we need more of this.

Daniel,

The more I read from what you post the more enlightened I become. I have never thought of it that way. The heart discerns what the mind cannot comprehend. At least that I what I get from what you are saying.

Thank you Daniel for your knowledge and insight. I just want you to know that you are appreciated.

Peace and love,
Scott

[sailaway58]

Speaking of enlightened, I just watched "Survivor's Initiative - New Life Church Action" video by Daniel Gonzales.

That is one of the best things I have seen on this site to date. The only way the stories could be more powerful for me would be if I knew the people personally.

[Zerbie]

Thanks everyone, for all your comments. My wife and I are on this journey together. We are both reading your comments and feel a better understanding of this community even in these few days.


I feel a little guardedness from some of you and I don’t blame anyone for that.
One thing I want to make clear is I am not here to decide if I should judge GLBT.
We won’t agree on many things and as we disagree we will make judgments about each other. Judge my motive, my ideas and my demeanor. Judge our friendship compatibility, my hair style or my shirt. But let’s not judge the others soul. As we have the free exchange of ideas I understand I am a guest in your world here and have not come to save you, change you or harass.
Let time prove this to be true.

If you don't mind, what gives you the impression you're running into "guardedness" here? I hope you don't feel unwelcome, because you have been a lovely presence here so far, and I hope you continue to hang around.

One thing you will find about the gay community is, it is EXTREMELY diverse. As is this forum, which is not just for gay people, it's for anyone who values the intrinsic dignity of LGBT people and wants to see institutional homophobia stop assaulting our own innocent friends neighbors and children.

I hope you will feel happy enough here that you decide to stay. Your questioning and exploring is a very, very good thing, for you, and for the world around you. Feel free to ask whatever questions you like. We will tell you if something pushes an alarm button. But I don't think you need to worry about that - I don't think you're going to.

[tymejumper]

[QUOTE=Pablo Rafael;35390]Tim,

It is my personal belief that the lives of gay Christians and straight Christians should look exactly the same.


I think that indeed a gay and straight Christian would indeed look the same with reguards to following Gods word and such. If you follow the big 10, then it does not really matter if who you love is female or male.

I consider myself a believer in God/Goddess, but not exactly a Christian. My partner and myself folow more of the Buddist/Zen teachings of following a path. I feel I am still being true to the Christian ideal of following the 10 commandments as they are rules everyone should live by. I don't see how being Christian or non Christian is all different for a gay person. Maybe being Buddist, it was easier to accept myself as gay than if I were to be strict Christian.

I believe Hell is a state that we put ourselves in, we make our own Hells here ion Earth by being unhappy, wanting what we do not or can not have and holding onto pain we need to let go of. Not being afraid of going to Hell for being gay hs given me a curious sense of faith and beliefe in others beliefes. I can listen with an open heart to others beliefes and be ok with it. I have greater understanding and no problem praying to God or Jesus, it does not infringe upon my faith at all. I also can worship the Goddess and feel alive.

Being gay and non Christian does not mean that I am loose, I am faithful to my partner/wife, I waited a while for sex and I do not believe in using others for gain. I don't steal or cheat or lie, and it upsets me greatly when others do so. I seek to be the best human I can be and believe that the energy that I release into the world and universe will come back to me multiplied. So I strive to be the best most understanding and fair person I can be.

I dont think that there are many differences at all in gay Cristains and non Christains.

[pnggrad79]

Oh PNG. Have you ever thought of getting out of Texas?

Zerb,
I would LOVE to get out of Texas, but California is too expensive, so is Hawaii, and the Northeast is too cold. I would love Canada, but wife doesn't want to be that far from her parents. I wish like everything I could get out of Texas. I have thought about New Mexico or Arizona. Love both states. Maybe someday. Still holding out for that day when the gay haters die off and the young people coming up will give us our rights.

[sailaway58]

If you don't mind, what gives you the impression you're running into "guardedness" here? I hope you don't feel unwelcome, because you have been a lovely presence here so far, and I hope you continue to hang around.



It is probably my own guardedness or apprehension projected to others.

[keltic63]

Finally,
I feel a little guardedness from some of you and I don’t blame anyone for that.

considering the good-natured ribbing that's going on over in my "dirty little man" thread, I'd have to say we've let our guard down, and you're in with the in-crowd! :p

[paul]

I asked a question earlier and hope it doesn't get lost in the jumble, I consider it germane to the original topic? What's your take?

[tdogg]

I think there is more that one way to understand something, after all, we have a head and a heart, and they don't always agree, do they?

Our heads can have a hard time wrapping itself around information that makes no sense to us, either because we have no connection to it, lack experience, or simply have habitual ways of thinking which are unexamined.

The heart, I would wager, doesn't see things is the same way. And for me anyway, this is where compassion comes into play. My sense is that it is possible for the compassionate heart to 'understand' many things which the mind finds troublesome, annoying, or downright repulsive. It connects in ways which may even confound the head.

I think we need more of this.

Daniel, this is exactly it! When I finally came out to myself (the first step!), my head was full of the things that were taught and preached to me from a very young child, and from that, the things I truly believed and those I truly did not; various media projections (positive and negative); opinions and comments from friends and family (haven't come out to them yet at that point, but in general); relief at finally accepting myself, wonder at being able to fully experience what that meant mentally, emotionally and physically; excitement at the possibilities; a myriad of other thoughts.

Then I started dating my partner, and even more brain activity ensued. Finally came out here and there to family and friends, and now live pretty much OUT there.

There was a point, when I decided to clear out all the thoughts, clear this ole noggin of mine, and search deep within my HEART. Wonder of wonders, there wasn't much confusion going on there. My heart was very satisfied, happy and okay with being gay, and later, being with a lover of the same sex. 2.5 years later, we are still happy together, work through the issues and feel blessed to have found each other and to have such a happy, loving and easy relationship (most of the time).

Sometimes, now and then, my head starts going again, but I pretty much clear out the head rushes with a quiet time focused on my heart. It speaks very clearly, truthfully and pointedly, when I bother to listen to it.

[sailaway58]

I asked a question earlier and hope it doesn't get lost in the jumble, I consider it germane to the original topic? What's your take?

Sailaway,

You're not Baptist, are you? No

I think the answers to your questions depend on what you use to inform or define your Christianity. I quip about your not being baptist, because their definition of "Christian" does not include glbt. I am not Baptist but I but as far as my churches stance would go, GLBT is a sin. Personally I am a conservative that believes in evolution, pre-determined sexual orientation and I believe not all Catholics are going to hell. I'm a misfit :(

Some "Christians" use the bible. Some use only parts of the bible (like the "teachings of Christ"). Then, of course, there's the endless arguments of interpretation. You use the term "spiritually." Can you define what you mean by that? The reason I ask is because there is a teaching in Christianity that directs one to "walk by the spirit." It seems to me that if you can figure out what that means and how to do that, it would be the answer to your questions.I hate to use church phrases but basically I believe in a born again experience that fills you with God's fullness at the time of conversion. The rest of my life is spent learning to walk, live, speak and love in the fullness Christ afforded me by his death and resurrection. I strive to know the heart of God but don't pretend to believe I would ever fully achieve it.



I guess I wasn't to put my answers inside your quote but I am not changing it now. :rolleyes:

[keltic63]

I guess I wasn't to put my answers inside your quote but I am not changing it now. :rolleyes:

different color works just fine! zerbie does that often. we're ok with that.

[paul]

Hi sailaway,

I guess there was more than one question mark in what I wrote, the first one about being Baptist was a lame attempt at humor. In my experience, a Baptist would never even consider that gay may be okay, let alone bring it up at church. So in my book that would make you an unusual (extremely) and brave Baptist. As it is, you're just unusal and brave. :) As to being a "misfit," you've come to the right place, welcome to the island of misfit toys. Btw, since you don't believe all Catholics are going to hell, and you are conservative, you might enjoy Andrew Sullivan. Particularly, you might enjoy his book "Normal An Argument About Homosexuality."

As to my original question about "spiritually," I have found two general schools of thought, usually falling into the charismatic or non camps. The charismatics tend to believe in an actual part called the spirit whereas the nonies treat the spirit more as a concept. Either way, when I talk to Christians about "the spirit," things start getting kind of vague, very hard to nail down. Understandable, how to you 'nail down' the wind? Still, if the Bibllical directive is to "walk by the spirit," and "the Spirit will teach..." it seems to me it would be an important thing to understand, foundational even. In the absence of such a foundation, what's left but intellect or emotion? These hardly seem adequate or reliable to me as a means of "knowing God" or "knowing Gods will." When someone uses the word "spiritual" my ears always prick up because I honestly wonder if there is such a thing.

[sailaway58]

Hi sailaway,

I guess there was more than one question mark in what I wrote, the first one about being Baptist was a lame attempt at humor. In my experience, a Baptist would never even consider that gay may be okay, let alone bring it up at church. So in my book that would make you an unusual (extremely) and brave Baptist. As it is, you're just unusal and brave. :) As to being a "misfit," you've come to the right place, welcome to the island of misfit toys. Btw, since you don't believe all Catholics are going to hell, and you are conservative, you might enjoy Andrew Sullivan. Particularly, you might enjoy his book "Normal An Argument About Homosexuality."

As to my original question about "spiritually," I have found two general schools of thought, usually falling into the charismatic or non camps. The charismatics tend to believe in an actual part called the spirit whereas the nonies treat the spirit more as a concept. Either way, when I talk to Christians about "the spirit," things start getting kind of vague, very hard to nail down. Understandable, how to you 'nail down' the wind? Still, if the Biblical directive is to "walk by the spirit," and "the Spirit will teach..." it seems to me it would be an important thing to understand, foundational even. In the absence of such a foundation, what's left but intellect or emotion? These hardly seem adequate or reliable to me as a means of "knowing God" or "knowing Gods will." When someone uses the word "spiritual" my ears always prick up because I honestly wonder if there is such a thing.

Hi Paul,
I got the Baptist joke. I was one for two years but I couldn't take it! (That's not a joke)
As for the spirit I believe two things.
1) We can walk in the attitude and character of Christ. The way we do that is by the renewing of our minds and the way we renew our minds is by studying Gods words, prayer and in general fellowship with believers that encourage spiritual growth.

2) Also I believe in the very spirit of God that fills us when we believe. Christ said the comforter would come and I believe that is the Holy Spirit.
What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, pick one, they all work and can support their argument with scripture.
My personal experience only tells me that when I accepted Christ something changed inside. I walked a different walk, cared about others differently and began a journey that will not be complete until I see all things clearly... When I see Christ face to face.

Almost 30 years ago I attended a anti-gay rally in Indy. I had no idea what I was getting into. One guy made a sign that said, "No Gay Teachers" and spelled teachers wrong! He was with us so we had him correct it before we got there.
I bring this up because I believe God used that time to Begin a change in me, his spirit began to guide me in a direction away from most of my Christian friends. As I heard some of the hate speech my wife and I looked at each other and said something like, "That's not really how I feel". I still thought Gay was wrong but I didn't want to hate anybody.

I want to know the heart of God and that comes by his Spirit.

A fair question might be why do some Christians seem to be so unloving? I don't know other than when we seek God through our eyes of prejudice change happens slowly. I find that people are at times more interested in being right than knowing the truth. When I read through the stories on this site and see how long it takes for some here to accept or understand their orientation it comes as no surprise that it is hard for those of us outside GLBT to get a hold of it.

[paul]

sailaway,

Thanks for continuing to indulge and respond to me, I know this was probably not the original intent of your thread.

I haven't been at soulforce for too long, but have jumped in with my shoes on. I wasn't sure how welcomed I would be because I am pretty much an infidel, well a skeptic anyway. I do have roots that go pretty deep into fundamental Christianity. 8 years ago, I was asked to pastor a church by the congregation where I attended. I deconverted about a year and a half ago because I could no longer honestly say I "know" God/Jesus. I hope this helps? i.e., to give you an idea of where I am coming from.

"1) We can walk in the attitude and character of Christ. The way we do that is by the renewing of our minds and the way we renew our minds is by studying Gods words, prayer and in general fellowship with believers that encourage spiritual growth. "

I think I understand, rather like when we refer to "the spirit of the law" vs. the letter of the law? That is to say the intent or "attitude and character" as you put it. I like that, "attitude and character." This definition makes the most sense to me when it comes to being able to quantify "spiritual" in a way we can all look at and agree on, it seems less ethereal. I have problems with elements of the method, however. In order to accomplish this type of spirituality, one has to "study Gods words." So to do this we have to identify what "Gods words" are. Of course, fundamentalists simply say, the whole bible is "God's inerrant word." Which, to many such believers way of thinking, creates a conflict for gblt peoples "lifestyle." Some argue against the fundamentalist interpretation of the bible by saying, "no, no, you must pray and ask God about those scriptures, the words of God are spiritually discerned." Rats, there's that word "spiritual" again, but this time it has a different meaning. Of course, any self respecting fundamentalist knows, and will retort accordingly, that they have indeed "prayed and asked God" for their currently held interpretation. That's why they 'know' they're right and have the Godhousekeeping Seal of approval. And birds of a feather tend to fellowship together and encourage one another in their mutually held beliefs. Okay, you know what I just elaborated on first hand. YOU are currently a fly in the ointment at your church, I would guess, by bringing up the idea of including glbt people. rutroh. My guess is, if you sit down with all those people you discussed this "lifestyle" thing with, fellowshiped and prayed together, you're still going to have division, conflict. Why? Each usually accuses the other of not really wanting to know Gods will (i.e., "the truth"). Sheesh, if I had a dollar for every time I was told that I could retire...to bedlam, no doubt :rolleyes:.

"2) Also I believe in the very spirit of God that fills us when we believe. Christ said the comforter would come and I believe that is the Holy Spirit.
What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, pick one, they all work and can support their argument with scripture.
My personal experience only tells me that when I accepted Christ something changed inside. I walked a different walk, cared about others differently and began a journey that will not be complete until I see all things clearly... When I see Christ face to face."

"What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation." Yeah, I've observed that as well :lol:. It seems there was a time, written about in the bible, when the 'true' followers of God had signs and wonders to back up their beliefs and assertions that God was with them. Now, we have "scripture in an endless array of interpretation," many try to make that their "proof" that God is with them. In the absence of a miraculous manifestation of God's Spirit, what we are left with is our humanity. I could not honestly say I knew the difference between God's Spirit and my intellect, emotion, or imagination. Because of that, it seemed to me that for me to attribute my beliefs about God to God was taking God's name in vain.

[sailaway58]

I will get into this but we have a big week this week and I gotta go. I'll read again and put some thoughts together later.:D

[sailaway58]

sailaway,

Thanks for continuing to indulge and respond to me, I know this was probably not the original intent of your thread. Threads take a life of their own just like conversation. I just go where it takes me.:)

I haven't been at soulforce for too long, but have jumped in with my shoes on. I wasn't sure how welcomed I would be because I am pretty much an infidel, well a skeptic anyway. I do have roots that go pretty deep into fundamental Christianity. 8 years ago, I was asked to pastor a church by the congregation where I attended. I deconverted about a year and a half ago because I could no longer honestly say I "know" God/Jesus. I hope this helps? i.e., to give you an idea of where I am coming from. Just a note in passing, I think that is what is ment by we walk by faith not by site

"1) We can walk in the attitude and character of Christ. The way we do that is by the renewing of our minds and the way we renew our minds is by studying Gods words, prayer and in general fellowship with believers that encourage spiritual growth. "

I think I understand, rather like when we refer to "the spirit of the law" vs. the letter of the law? That is to say the intent or "attitude and character" as you put it. I like that, "attitude and character." This definition makes the most sense to me when it comes to being able to quantify "spiritual" in a way we can all look at and agree on, it seems less ethereal. I have problems with elements of the method, however. In order to accomplish this type of spirituality, one has to "study Gods words." So to do this we have to identify what "Gods words" are. Of course, fundamentalists simply say, the whole bible is "God's inerrant word." Which, to many such believers way of thinking, creates a conflict for gblt peoples "lifestyle." Some argue against the fundamentalist interpretation of the bible by saying, "no, no, you must pray and ask God about those scriptures, the words of God are spiritually discerned." Rats, there's that word "spiritual" again, but this time it has a different meaning. Of course, any self respecting fundamentalist knows, and will retort accordingly, that they have indeed "prayed and asked God" for their currently held interpretation. That's why they 'know' they're right and have the Godhousekeeping Seal of approval. And birds of a feather tend to fellowship together and encourage one another in their mutually held beliefs. Okay, you know what I just elaborated on first hand. YOU are currently a fly in the ointment at your church, I would guess, by bringing up the idea of including glbt people. rutroh. My guess is, if you sit down with all those people you discussed this "lifestyle" thing with, fellowshiped and prayed together, you're still going to have division, conflict. Why? Each usually accuses the other of not really wanting to know Gods will (i.e., "the truth"). Sheesh, if I had a dollar for every time I was told that I could retire...to bedlam, no doubt .
I look at others in the church and out like this; They are entitled to their faith as they see fit. I don't have to be right. I have no idea what brought a person to the place of belief or lack they exist in but as adults we, they whomever are entitled to their choices. As far as knowing Gods will, because most here are from and involved in a Judeo Christian faith and that is my personal experience I prefer to limit the choice of holy books to the Bible. Using this book we can find Gods will in principal. What people generally want is some psychic experience to confirm some decision they need to make. A silly way to approach life in my opinion. People that want to know Gods' will usually are looking for a shortcut to find it.
My real objective at church is to make sure we as believers love period. I don't think you have to agree with others to have fellowship and love one another. I will never convince some that GLBT is not sin. But if we love others without condemnation it may be as far as some ever get. I want to love others without an agenda and let God take care of their call, their heart, their issues, whatever. .

"2) Also I believe in the very spirit of God that fills us when we believe. Christ said the comforter would come and I believe that is the Holy Spirit.
What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation. Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, pick one, they all work and can support their argument with scripture.
My personal experience only tells me that when I accepted Christ something changed inside. I walked a different walk, cared about others differently and began a journey that will not be complete until I see all things clearly... When I see Christ face to face."

"What a person chooses to believe about Gods Spirit can be backed by scripture in an endless array of interpretation." Yeah, I've observed that as well . It seems there was a time, written about in the bible, when the 'true' followers of God had signs and wonders to back up their beliefs and assertions that God was with them. Now, we have "scripture in an endless array of interpretation," many try to make that their "proof" that God is with them. In the absence of a miraculous manifestation of God's Spirit, what we are left with is our humanity. I could not honestly say I knew the difference between God's Spirit and my intellect, emotion, or imagination. Because of that, it seemed to me that for me to attribute my beliefs about God to God was taking God's name in vain.
I have been known to anger a few fellow believers by stating the mind is an incredible thing. You are not the first to struggle with the conflict of what is just my thoughts and what is Gods spirit? Your personal hunger and journey will have to decide that for yourself but as I told one of my sons after his first year in college. He and I were talking and he said he didn't really know if he believed in God. I said that's good but don't stop with the wonder, investigate. God does not freak out at our questions, lack of belief or lack of faith. He just calls us to himself.
I would say taking Gods name in vain is more about how we live than what we say.

[Manatee]

Part of the problem (with understanding what "spiritual" means) is that, at least in Christian tradition, it refers to the Holy Spirit. This means that it is a complex idea: just as complex as saying that something is "Christ-like," because the Holy Spirit is a person, as complete and manifold as Christ. So to be "spiritual" means to have a relationship with the Holy Spirit -- by this I don't mean you have to stick up your hands and babble in tongues, but that you enter into a relationship of prayer with the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, many people (particularly in certain Pentacostal or Charismatic movements) are eager to show off their relationship with the Holy Spirit, to boast of it, in a sense, both to others and to themselves, and this can lead to getting carried away: to thinking that one's own thoughts are the product of the Holy Spirit. For me, I can say nothing about most of the spiritual gifts: I have never spoken in tongues, and I don't think I could lay claim to the rest either. The one that I do have some experience with is Understanding, by which I mean something along the lines of insight. The difference in the case of this particular gift (between the action fo the Holy Spirit, and the action of my own mind) is that the Spirit provides moments of insight, glimpses into mysteries that I haven't penetrated through any logical methodology, and that I couldn't have arrived at by the strength of my own intellect. Rarely are these in the form of dogmatic beliefs, but rather they deepen some aspect of established dogma -- like the Trinity, or the Eucharist -- or else they help me to understand some other aspect of life. You ask what can be interpreted in this light? The scriptures, obviously, but not exclusively. One of the great Saints of the early Church once pointed to the world that God had created and said "If I wish to read the word of God, I need merely look at His creation." Which is not to say that any higgledy-piggledy nonsense that we can justify by allusions to nature is necessarily accurate, but that if you meditate on the natural world, and open your heart to the Holy Spirit in your meditations, that you can learn something of God.
In general, I would avoid trying to answer questions of doctrine in this way, because it is a recipe for confusion and in-fighting, with everyone shouting "But I know it is true, by the power of the Holy Spirit," and this is both foolish, presumptuous, and scandalous. It drives people away from Christianity, because if there is only one Holy Spirit, He can hardly be saying contradictory things to different people. I would focus instead on developing a relationship, and in approaching the Spirit as someone who can help you to understand things in your life -- whether or not they apply to the lives of others -- and to understand the world. It is my belief that we are all created unique so that we may all see God's work in a different way, that we may open our eyes and develop that sight, so that in the end, when we are gathered up in the communion of Saints, we will all be able to look upon the face of God from a multitude of different perspectives, and each increase His glory for all of the others. This means that the Spirit will open different truths to you than to other people (not contradictory -- but in the way that a scientist is right when he penetrates the mysteries of the rose's biology, but the medieval is also right when he sees the passion of Christ reflected in the outer shape of the rose.) Your relationship with the Holy Spirit will be unique, and it will also take time to come to recognise and understand this relationship (it is said, and rightly so, that the Holy Spirit is the most difficult of the Three persons to understand, because the Spirit is the love of the Father and the Son made manifest as a seperate person, and this is a mystery that our limited minds are never going to be able to wholly compass.) In time, with perseverence, your relationship with the Holy Spirit will develop, and you will be able to tell the difference between your own thoughts and feelings, and those that come from the Spirit. Do not be impatient with this. It usually takes many years -- even though life in the spirit movements tend to try to convince people that it happens in one flash of fire falling from heaven -- this does happen, but it is not normative and almost never happens to people who expect it. And if you are scandalized by people trying to justify their beliefs with arguments from spirituality, ignore them. Your relationship with God does not depend on what they say (do not be dismissive, or assume that their spirituality is false or stupid -- which is pride -- but realize that they may be more confused than they appear, or that they are seeing things from a perspective that, at least in this life, will remain imcompatible with yours.)