Question about the Biblical Jews

[wmanion]

Hi all,
I was scanning through the channels on tv last night and I happened to catch a comment, I do not remember what show, but the comment was made that at the time the Bible was written the Jewish race was on the verge of extinction. I have never heard this before so my questions are:

1. Is this true?

2. If this is true, is that why such an emphasis was put on procreation? Also, is this the reason that if a man died without and heir it was up to the brother to sleep with the wife until the man had an heir?

Always seeking answers,

Bill

[u-dog]

Hi all,
I was scanning through the channels on tv last night and I happened to catch a comment, I do not remember what show, but the comment was made that at the time the Bible was written the Jewish race was on the verge of extinction. I have never heard this before so my questions are:

1. Is this true?

2. If this is true, is that why such an emphasis was put on procreation? Also, is this the reason that if a man died without and heir it was up to the brother to sleep with the wife until the man had an heir?

Always seeking answers,

Bill

Bill,

The written material in the Bible ranges from 1000 BCE to 250 AD Most of the material comes from the period between 700BCE to 200BCE and this is the period when the OT canon is being formed. Isreal was buffeted between the major empires repeatedly during this time (the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, Alexander the Great). These were difficult times... especially the fifty years of exile in Babylon but it seems too strong to say that they were on the "verge of extinction". Their national and religious and cultural identity was threatened but procreation wasn't going to help that.

[wmanion]

Thanks U-dog, I really did not think it was true but had to ask those more wise than myself. I knew I had never heard of that theory.

Bill

[Pablo Rafael]

Bill,

That is an interesting comment. I had never thought about it before. But at the time of the Babylonian exile, the Northern tribes (the nation of Israel) had already been conquered and pretty much assimilated into the Assyrians. That left only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin (The nation of Judah, hence the name "Jews"). They were a small vassal state to Babylon. Before this time they were called "Hebrews" not Jews.

I believe that it is that hand of God that has preserved the Jewish people. Only during the time of the Judges and Kings, a 200 years during the rule of the Macabees and from 1947 until now, have the Jewish people ever had self-rule.

The Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Muslims and various peoples of Europe have all failed to eradicate the Jews as a people and a culture. And what a powerful influence the Jews have had on the history of the world, way out of proportion to their small size, military might and technology.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[pnggrad79]

Then it is safe to say that the Jews may not have been on the "verge of extinction" physically, but as a culture and as a religion they may have been. I think the OT was written, specifically Leviticus and Deuteronomy, to tell the Jews how to remain separate in the face of such encroaching powers around them. In order for the Savior to be born, God had to keep the Jews unto themselves. At least that's how I see it. This theme is replete throughout the OT. Abraham leaving Ur and traveling to Canaan, David and Solomon in battle against the Philistines, the Assyrians, etc, Daniel in Persia, eating only vegetables and keeping his religious practices. Esther in Persia, going to the extreme to save the Jewish people. Moses leading the whole group out of Egypt. Nehemiah with the single purpose of restoring the Temple in Jerusalem.

To me the laws written there are for a purpose and that was to keep the Jews together spiritually, emotionally, and physically so that God's ultimate purpose could be fulfilled. When Jesus came, the purpose was fulfilled, and all those OT laws and regulations were no longer valid. Jesus replaced the law with grace, a fact most churches today only pay lip service to.

[u-dog]

Then it is safe to say that the Jews may not have been on the "verge of extinction" physically, but as a culture and as a religion they may have been. I think the OT was written, specifically Leviticus and Deuteronomy, to tell the Jews how to remain separate in the face of such encroaching powers around them. In order for the Savior to be born, God had to keep the Jews unto themselves. At least that's how I see it. This theme is replete throughout the OT. Abraham leaving Ur and traveling to Canaan, David and Solomon in battle against the Philistines, the Assyrians, etc, Daniel in Persia, eating only vegetables and keeping his religious practices. Esther in Persia, going to the extreme to save the Jewish people. Moses leading the whole group out of Egypt. Nehemiah with the single purpose of restoring the Temple in Jerusalem.

To me the laws written there are for a purpose and that was to keep the Jews together spiritually, emotionally, and physically so that God's ultimate purpose could be fulfilled. When Jesus came, the purpose was fulfilled, and all those OT laws and regulations were no longer valid. Jesus replaced the law with grace, a fact most churches today only pay lip service to.

Amen Sister !! But, God being God , the covenant made with the Jews isn't abrogated simply because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. With God, Covenants are forever. Wherever God is headed in the future, one thing is certain... he's taking the Jews with him. Which to me explains the phenomenon that Pablo mentioned... the fact that all of these big, fat, powerful empires seem unable to squish the Jews out of existences.

[Pablo Rafael]

I think the OT was written, specifically Leviticus and Deuteronomy, to tell the Jews how to remain separate in the face of such encroaching powers around them. In order for the Savior to be born, God had to keep the Jews unto themselves.

Good point. I think the same way. All the regulations were not for God; they were for the people of Israel so that they would know they were different. The laws of "clean" and "unclean" reminded the Hebrews that they were different. The practice of circumcision physically marked (the men at least) so that they could see they were different. The sacrifies, the redemption of the firstborn etc. Not a day could go by without being reminded of their uniqueness.

I think that we as Christians are also the inheritors of the promise made to the Jews. As far as Western intellectual thought "We are all Greeks". (I forget who it was that made that famous quote) In Christianity maybe we could say, "We are all Jews".

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Allen Pope]

I have had the honor to travel much of the world see many of the manuscripts we have from which the NT was written and a few of the OT documents.

Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in the 40's, the oldest OT document we had was about 1000 years old. All the copies we have of every OT and NT document are copies of copies of copies and written decades (NT) if not centuries (most of the OT) after the events they depict.

Many if not most OT linguistic scholars believe the OT as we know it was put together after Jerusalem had been sacked and the Jews were being held captive in Babylon. Many of the stories preserved in Babylon from other ancient cultures (now in museums around the world) are reflected in Biblical stories. Some of the stories reflected go back 1500 years before Moses and some even preceded the Biblical time of Abraham

Other who post to this forum and can read Hebrew know that the way most of the sections of the OT are dated using language. Just as you can pick up Shakespeare and sort of read it (LOL), you can immediately tell it is older English than yesterdays LA Times. Hebrew is no different and much of the OT ...with exceptions here and there, contain words from the time of the Babylonian captivity. The Jews were in danger of becoming extinct and may have had Cyrus the Great not freed them. Hence, the primarily "Babylonian" edition we have of the OT is what came to be preserved and revered and what the Jews took back to Jerusalem when Cyrus allowed them to go back (still his subjects but allowed to live in Jerusalem again)

The OT was a product of its time. Without going into the theological debate of divine intervention or inspiration, from a linguistic point of view,
another important distinction preserved by the Babylonian return (which is also pretty much the time line where the OT stops and is silent) just as one can pick up a book of the Constitution and just by reading it tell it is a different legal and unique document from the past as opposed to a legal brief written last week, language is again the primary way to remind us that the OT contains poetry, prose, "mythical stories" (don't get mad..that just means ancient stories written as illustrations to explain a "truth", the OT version of a "parable"), the Levitical Code which seems to condemn homosexuality must be read as an entire document....just like a legal document today...you can't pick out one law (don't sleep with another man) and ignore others (like kill people's unruly children or a man who has sex with his wife while she is having her period). Plenty of examples there for the homophobes who use the OT. Another uneducated and ignorant thing they constantly get away with saying is that homosexuality is called an "abomination" in the Levitical Code.

The definition of "abomination" is "pagan”, not "sin worse than others" which is a totally unbiblical concept according to the New Testament. If people who cherry pick that passage were informed to read the entire Levitical Code, underline everything else that is called an "abomination" and were willing to enforce the entire code (just like the code of Hammurabi from Ancient Babylon which predates the Levitical code) or any other modern set of laws, they wouldn't keep trying to use the argument.

Not to leave the wrong impression but parts of the OT clearly contain and are composed of various older versions of Hebrew...and new words show up in old texts showing they had been edited at a later time (Like Hamlet saying. "Dude, should I kill myself or not?" instead of "to be or not to be"
LOL ... an exaggeration to prove a point...which the Bible also often does.

Finally, another unrelated tool I use when people try to argue the "what the Bible says about homosexuality" is the oft quoted Romans 1. A good friend of mine who loves me but believes/believed (he is not so sure now and is making progress with his study) used to say “I know what Romans 1 says". One day I said, "No you don't. Read it again in its entirety and just take out those few words about same sex, read the text, look me in the eye and tell me that description describes me. He tried and "'got it". I said, go ahead, put the sex part back in, and tell me that describes me. Same results...slightly more shocked. Of course, he is an honest guy who really wants to know so it worked with him. Paul is condemning a "lifestyle" of paganism some of which involved male prostitutes.usually young boys.

The Gospels and Jesus don't even mention any form of Homosexuality and his attitude toward the "outcast" and the Samaritan and the "sinners and tax collectors" make it pretty clear to me that Jesus would and probably did accept gay disciples.

But, back to the subject:

Finally, another complication of OT translation is the Septuagint. After the ten years it took Alexander to conquer the "western world" in the early 300 BC period, and in spite of his death, his generals divided up the huge area from Egypt/Africa to southern Europe and a huge chunk of Asia extending to the edges of India, and that part of the world became Hellenistic... (Exported Greek Culture with some aspects of existing cultures mixed in.known as syncretism). Rome was on the rise and but Hellenism continued under the rise of Rome and "morphed" into Greco/Roman culture. The Jews tried to hold on tight but many Jews outside of "Israel" didn't read Hebrew, they read Greek like everyone else who could read (not that many) so the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek. There is an ancient "urban legend" about how that happened but the point is that another complication of understanding the OT is that Hebrew is so different from Greek (Hebrew was a sparse, primitive language very limited in world view and influenced by all the nations the Hebrews/Jews encountered. Greek was a rich, vibrant and constantly changing language ...very much like English today.

There are words in the Septuagint which do not match the words in the Hebrew manuscripts we have today. Many older Hebrew manuscripts probably burned when one of the worst tragedies of the ages happened and the library at Alexandria, Egypt, where the Septuagint was almost assuredly created, burned to the ground during the Roman Civil wars in the first century BC, between Julius Caesar and Pompey, and later finished off by Marcus Antonius (Anthony) in his fight against young Octavian/ Caesar Augustus in 41 BC. At least 700,000 documents of all kinds (no books in those days) were lost to history forever.and which probably would explain the Septuagint and give us variations on the current OT which would be invaluable...but war cost us that knowledge forever.

I am not a linguistic expert but this is my understanding of why the Jews put the OT together while in Babylon (and maybe even after Cyrus freed them) because they had seen the possibility that they could be wiped off the face of the earth and they wanted to preserve the texts.

I am new to the forum, my name is Allen Pope and I hope I have entered this thread correctly so that you can respond. If not, I am set up to receive private emails ...so fire away if I can be of any help. This is just a casual and rather sloppy posting so if I have mis-stated or confused something, call me on it.

If you are still awake, history class is over (a few of my Pepperdine students used to almost cheer when I released them from the Ancient Near East.LOL)

With Much Love,
Allen Pope, M.Div

[Allen Pope]

PS
I have the same view others expressed about the kind of books which have been collected into what we now call the OT. It is not a book but a collection of many books of all different kinds. Of course, it never actually became a Book until the Middle ages. Much of what is now written in the books complied in the OT/Hebrew Bible started out as oral traditions passed down from generation to generation. As times changed, so did some of the stories. Some which no longer made sense probably disappeared, some were redacted (edited) to fit the new situation. Others, like the very beautiful but almost assuredly fictional account of Esther, were created in times of crisis to create hope.
The book is a product of human beings interacting with God and the human experiences were recorded for later generations for many different reasons, legal, moral, aesthetic (poetry), and, sadly, sometimes out of fear and ignorance and prejudice. It's all in there and an interesting and informative read about how some of the followers of Yahweh experienced him as a reality in their lives.
Allen