UGH i just dont get it

[Jordan0517]

Okay..I really dont want to ask anything about this topic but im lost and scared with it. Sex..in the bible. I had went to Gaychristians.net and saw that they had a "side-b", i guess that meant gay christians who believe that they are called to a life of celibacy. And then there was "side-a" who believed that sex should be saved for marraige. Okay..this is why im lost....

How in the heck can we save sex for marraige when they dont GIVE us marraige? And why would we be called for life of celibacy. LIFE! Youve got to be kidding. I just dont understand. I mean really, what does the bible say about sex.I personally dont think that it would be a sin to have sex with someone u loved..weither u were marraied or not. But does GOD say we HAVE to? Is it really a sin to have sex outside of marraige? And what the heck is fornication?? I jus want to cry right now...this is frustrating :'(

[scott snedeker]

Okay..I really dont want to ask anything about this topic but im lost and scared with it. Sex..in the bible. I had went to Gaychristians.net and saw that they had a "side-b", i guess that meant gay christians who believe that they are called to a life of celibacy. And then there was "side-a" who believed that sex should be saved for marraige. Okay..this is why im lost....

How in the heck can we save sex for marraige when they dont GIVE us marraige? And why would we be called for life of celibacy. LIFE! Youve got to be kidding. I just dont understand. I mean really, what does the bible say about sex.I personally dont think that it would be a sin to have sex with someone u loved..weither u were marraied or not. But does GOD say we HAVE to? Is it really a sin to have sex outside of marraige? And what the heck is fornication?? I jus want to cry right now...this is frustrating :'(

I think you logged on to the wrong site. Forget them and look for a point of view that makes you feel good. This is in tune with your soul and explore

[Emproph]

Okay..I really dont want to ask anything about this topic but im lost and scared with it. Sex..in the bible.
This is probably one of the most comfortable forums you'll find to ask questions on that subject.

First of all, you might want to consider your own position on who God is and how that relates to the Bible. As Scott suggested, you need to take a look at how YOU are approaching this subject. Are you seeking answers from the Bible because YOU feel it is the best reflection of what God is, or because others are telling you so? Do you feel that God is an unconditional love as Jesus exemplified, or angry and punishing like man? Or somewhere in between, or perhaps you've never really thought about it.

Life is confusing, that much is certain. So if you believe in an all powerful God, then confusion is part of the design. In other words, God--if love--expects us to ask questions of it. Truth is the goal, just don't be afraid of asking the questions.

"Ask and you shall receive," it's in the Bible too. ;)

Biblically speaking, even remarriage is adultery. Like I said before, most of the anti-gay folk who *claim* their beliefs are based on the Bible, are completely full of it.

How in the heck can we save sex for marraige when they dont GIVE us marraige?
If they gave us marriage, they couldn't accuse us of living the gay "lifestyle" (promiscuous sex).

Most of them (even some who are sincere), just think that we are too stupid to realize we are attracted to the opposite sex -- but they RARELY IF EVER say it like that. Point being, they don't consider our love to be real, and thus there is no need to acknowledge the importance of our relationships.

And why would we be called for life of celibacy. LIFE! Youve got to be kidding. Celibacy is code for denying who you are. It's not just sex they want you to deny, it's ALL thoughts of same gender attraction. This is another thing they rarely explain.

Most of the people peddling this stuff are either willfully dishonest, or are ignorant out of their minds.

Here's a recent post (http://www.exgaywatch.com/wp/2007/07/questions-for-exodus/#comment-27093) that makes some pointed observations about the celibacy issue.

I just dont understand. I mean really, what does the bible say about sex...And what the heck is fornication??
I think that fornication is just any sex outside of marriage. And according to the Bible, all of those people should be put to death (or go to hell). That's 90% percent of everyone, but do you see them concerned about this as much as homosexuality? They don't even adhere to the "Bible," they just adhere to the parts they like. This is very important to understand when you hear someone speak on behalf of God via the Bible.

I personally dont think that it would be a sin to have sex with someone u loved..weither u were marraied or not. But does GOD say we HAVE to? Is it really a sin to have sex outside of marraige? I jus want to cry right now...this is frustrating :'( Who says GOD says? The same people who pick and choose the parts of the Bible they like? Did God tell you they speak for Him? Did God give them personal permission to speak for Him?

I know it's frustrating, even for seasoned jades like me, but keep at it and keep asking questions, you'll learn what you need to in order to make the decisions you need to.

Might I suggest starting with; Who is God? Answer that question and then ask God, DIRECTLY.

If you know who God is, you'll know which answers are coming from God. :)

[Steven E. Webster]

I think that fornication is just any sex outside of marriage. And according to the Bible, all of those people should be put to death (or go to hell). That's 90% percent of everyone, but do you see them concerned about this as much as homosexuality? They don't even adhere to the "Bible," they just adhere to the parts they like. This is very important to understand when you hear someone speak on behalf of God via the Bible.


I believe the word "fornication" comes from a Greek word "pornea" (I think that's how we'd spell it in English letters). It's related to the word "pornography" and, in Greek, it refers to prostitution. Some seem to think it refers to "sexual immorality" generally.

Frankly, I don't think the Bible has much at all to say about marriage or sex outside of marriage. The only part I can think of that is very relevant is Paul--who does seem to demand either monogamy or celibacy.

Does this mean a couple has to go through a formal, legal ceremony? I don't think that is clear at all.

Paul is only one voice among many in the Bible--so I wouldn't take Paul's opinions as "God's law." Actually, the principle that seemed to concern Paul was self-control. We'd probably agree that there can be problems when someone's sexual behavior becomes compulsive or "out of control."

One more thing. Adultery, as mentioned in the ten commandments, is really a kind of "property crime"--i.e. "don't mess with a woman who is owned by another man." The Ten Commandments say nothing against either polygamy or sex among unmarried persons.

Jesus' teaching on adultery in the Sermon on the Mount: I think Jesus says just about everyone is an adulterer, because everyone experiences "lust" or "desire" at one point or another. He also makes nearly everyone a "murderer" because everyone experiences anger at others from time to time. I'm not sure what to make of Jesus' teaching, except that none of us is really in the position to judge others, because we're all guilty.

My advice---a Christian ought to be a person who exercises self-control, at least to the extent that they treat everyone ethically and decently. We should not allow our desire for self-gratifcation to turn others into mere objects or tools for our self-gratification. Don't do anything that harms another in body or soul. Don't exploit. Do the loving thing. I don't believe legal marriage is required. I'm not sure monogamy is required (but there may be practical reasons to recommend it). Thinking with the head that sits on your shoulders, and not the other head is recommended.

Myself, I'm glad to be married (in Toronto last year) to the man who has been a real spouse to me for 25 years!

Steven Webster

[pnggrad79]

I don't know what to say... To me, sex outside of marriage can mean two things:

1. sex beforemarriage
2. sex during marriage with someone who isn't your partner, husband or wife.

The only time the Bible expressly forbids sex outside of marriage is in the case of sex during marriage, with someone who isn't your husband, wife, or partner.
I don't see anywhere in the Bible where sex before marriage is forbidden, unless someone can refute that.

Since marriage is an institution afforded only to straight people, gay people have been labeled "promiscuous" because of several reasons:

1. gay relationships are not given the chance to mature and grow because most of the time gay people, when they first realize they are gay, are conditioned to be ashamed of it, and seek to change their attractions, so any relationship they might have or had, is usually hidden, and kept secret.

2. gay relationships often don't last long, because family pressures to break up, guilt, or the church won't let them last long. And going back to #1, gay couples often try to imitate straight couples, and the dynamic is not the same.

3. gay relationships have to struggle to be together, and it is a true commitment when they do stay together. So when they fail, society says, "see? gay relationships have no hope of surviving".

I would like to see a shift in the way gay people seek relationships and keep them. The only way that the predominant straight society will learn to accept us is if they see our relationships remain stable. Not that theirs are all that stable, but they tend to overlook their own failures, especially when they look at us. It is finger pointing at its best.

Your fear of sex outside of marriage seems to stem from societal constraints, and that is something you need to work out for yourself. God is a God of love. He forgives, he restores, and he loves.

My best to you!:)

[paul]

Emproph wrote:
"Who says GOD says? The same people who pick and choose the parts of the Bible they like? Did God tell you they speak for Him? Did God give them personal permission to speak for Him?

I know it's frustrating, even for seasoned jades like me, but keep at it and keep asking questions, you'll learn what you need to in order to make the decisions you need to.

Might I suggest starting with; Who is God? Answer that question and then ask God, DIRECTLY.

If you know who God is, you'll know which answers are coming from God"

Jordan,

This is sage advice that Emproph has given you, do all you can to understand and hang onto it, it is key to your freedom.

Re sex in the bible, there's a lot in the Tenach (i.e., "old testament") and, as Steven pointed out stuff that Paul says in the "new testament." I find what Paul says about sex and marriage to be funny, bordering on cynical. Interesting that Christiandom has to rely on it's info about sex from an unmarried celibate, go figure. Paul's take was it is better to be single than married, but better to be married than to "burn" (with desire, hormones, you know). So, if you are endeavoring to follow the bible, particularly the new testament, sex outside of marriage is a no no = fornication. You might want to delve into defining marriage. Remember, the bible was written awhile ago and the definition of marriage may be different biblically than it is in modern thought. You'll find many here on this site who are indeed married, whether it is recongnized by some or not.

Good luck in your search, stick around there's some nice people here...at least you won't be alone.

paul

[keltic63]

Okay..I really dont want to ask anything about this topic but im lost and scared with it. Sex..in the bible. I had went to Gaychristians.net and saw that they had a "side-b", i guess that meant gay christians who believe that they are called to a life of celibacy. And then there was "side-a" who believed that sex should be saved for marraige. Okay..this is why im lost....

How in the heck can we save sex for marraige when they dont GIVE us marraige? And why would we be called for life of celibacy. LIFE! Youve got to be kidding. I just dont understand. I mean really, what does the bible say about sex.I personally dont think that it would be a sin to have sex with someone u loved..weither u were marraied or not. But does GOD say we HAVE to? Is it really a sin to have sex outside of marraige? And what the heck is fornication?? I jus want to cry right now...this is frustrating :'(

oh, you poor dear one. {{{{{hugs}}}}} to you. You don't need a piece of paper from the government that says you're allowed to have sex. That is what a LEGAL marriage is in this country (along with the 1,400 or so other benefits that come along with that license). the license says nothing about the quality, stability, morality, etc. of that marriage. Here's what I think is right: find someone you love, commit to them, and have sex. You are just as "married" as anyone else, with or without that paper.

everything else in you post can then be determined according to what you believe God is asking you to do. Do you believe God is instructing you to wait to have sex? then that is honorable. do you believe that god wouldn't necessarily like you having sex outside of the commitment, but that God would understand and forgive? what are the guidelines you think God gives straight people? Given the outline for "marriage" or commitment that I offered above, can you apply your beliefs to your situation as gay?

side b: sorry, it's a load of crap. Jesus said one thing that negates their whole argument:

Matthew 5:27-28 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
This is what I mean: if side b claims it's ok to be gay but one must never act on those feelings (have sex with someone of the same gender) they ignore this verse. Jesus says here, if you just look at someone with thoughts (or fantasies) of having sex with them, well you've already done the deed! Without getting crude, I can tell you that in my mind, I've already done it with a lot of guys, especially back in high school! :o

fornication: having sex without being married/in a committed relationship. from the church's teaching, we'd have to say yes, this is sin. However, sin is sin, and this one is no worse than any other.

[Dash]

"Fornication" is derived from "fornix"--latin for "arch"...Back in the day (Jesus...and later Paul's) prostitutes would sell their "wares" under the arches of, say, the Roman Colosseum (during the off season, of course). So essentially, when men were fornicating, they were "going arching" or visiting brothels.*

It ain't got a d#@m thing to do with sex before marriage.

Very few people are made for celibacy...both Christ's and Paul's words imply this*...common sense and the mad Catholic sex scandals bear it out.

Marriage... Are there even any marriage rites or directives about what a marriage ceremony should look like in the Bible? I know there is a mention that Jesus was promoting much heavy drink at a certain wedding feast at Cana.*..but I don't recall any other descriptions of a wedding ceremony. Oh...well...maybe in Job...were his children at a wedding feast when they were "smote"?

Oh yeah...and let's talk about the thousand year-old business of trading women and the maintenance of their virginity as a product owned by the father. That's where no sex before marriage comes from.**

Blah blah...traditional marriage...blah blah...:smashy:

*I could provide references, but I need to finish packing for my flight to Florida. Maybe some other time...

**I'm just shooting my trap here...I've not done much study in this area.

[andrewlittle]

All references about marriage were concepts/translations/interpretations inserted after marriage became a convention - a thousand years or so after the death of Jesus.

Those passages dealing with "marriage" actually used verbs that translate to bought, took, laid with, etc. In most instances the "marriage" occurred as the result of a man taking a wife - buying, stealing, bartering for, having sex with, you name it. Marriage is a secular legal concept that took on religious overtones as a result of the church wishing to control unions between powerful families and kingdoms.

As has been stated, the notion of a committed relationship is what is discussed in scripture - with there being more variations on what "committed relationships" look like than you can shake a stick at.

Don't prostitute yourself, okay. Don't debase yourself through sexual relations. Don't debase someone else. Make sure that the relationship(s) is/are mutual, respectful, affectionate, and entered into with awareness of each participants integral worth. Then you do not run the risk of fornication.

Now, as to being accepted by staunch anti-GLBT fundamentalists - I suppose hell could freeze over. Won't happen - they'll call you all kinds of names dealing with the sexual perversity they perceive in their narrow little minds and narrow little (modern) readings of scripture. So be it. Do you want to live your life by their narrow little definitions? I hope not.

Above all else is respect - for yourself and the other person. Enter into the sexual relationship with care and safety - not fear and titillation. The latter drives both abusive pornography and fornication.

[Emproph]

You'll find many here on this site who are indeed married, whether it is recongnized by some or not.

There are gay couples here who are married. It's a happily moot point.

[Daniel]

Jordan- you didn't ask about this, but what about sex in life rather than the bible? Do you know how to keep youself- and your partner- safe?

This is an issue, especially for young gay men (and your pic shows your radiant youthful face) who may think that STD's and AIDS doesn't apply to them. I certainly don't want to insult you here- you probably know a great deal more about these things than I did at your age- but my mind wants to know how you are doing with practical matters.

It behooves one to get comfortable with the best sex education possible. That's the best way to deal with one's fears. Romance does not protect one. Knowledge does.

On the marriage point: been married to my guy for 15 years and counting. Canada recognizes it, but that was many years into our relationship. We married each other.