What would you do?

[keltic63]

Both of the following stories are true, and happened within the past week.

first story: a friend of ours was out with his boyfriend and 2 other gay men, having dinner at a nice restaurant. Sit-down, waiters & waitresses, tablecloths, etc. NOT fast food. As the group was nearly finished with dinner, a family was seated near them. The father and approx. 16yo son began making remarks about the gay men. The son picked up his soda bottle and began performing oral sex on it. the father called them fags. The wife and mother did nothing either to stop them or encourage them. The men in the the group tried to laugh it off, but our friend was offended, and also bothered that the men he was with didn't feel the same as he did. The situation escalated, words were exchanged, but the harassment from the straight people did not stop.

what would you do? what could they have done?


The very day after our friend told us this story, my partner came home from work with the following:
Scott stopped at WalMart after work to pick up some photos he had dropped off a few days ago. On his way back to his car, a carload of Christian women pulled up along side of him and asked "are you gay?" Now, how do we know they were Christian? we have in our area, a few churches where the women are not allowed to cut their hair, not allowed to wear pants etc. I believe the churches are known as being Apostolic. They are legalistic and fundamentalist. Scott and I both have rainbow stickers on our cars. They are about 3" long and less than 1/2" wide, so you can see them, but they are discreet. These women had spotted the sticker, drove around the lot and confronted Scott! So, Scott's answer was "and proud of it." One woman in the back seat asked why he "chose" to be that way. Scott responded "I was born this way and God loves me as I am." woo hoo! you go boy! The kicker though as the confrontation continued, was that Scott finally just insulted them. He told them that they needed to wear shorter skirts, cut their hair, and "lose some weight, you all look like you eat way too much." :lol: Now I tried not to show my disappointment. Scott doesn't do the work that we do here, and that's ok. But I couldn't help but think I hadn't done a good job of giving him tools to use in that situation. This happened Tuesday, and I knew it was upsetting for him, eventhough he was laughing about it. My suspicions were confirmed last night when I got in his van and saw that he had written down their license plate number. My poor baby. Don't worry, I was good to him last night.


So what do you think? How can we help people who aren't involved in this kind of work? What should each of the harassment victims done in these stories?

[Daniel]

I think it takes a great deal of skill to deal with this kind of thing- especially when one is caught off guard. The fight or flight instinct kicks in but good.

Sometimes I think a big ol' grin can do wonders in situations like this- that is- if one isn't in physical danger. It's unexpected and disarming. And the point here may be to 'do' things which are disarming- throw the opposing force off balance with the least amount of effort. Use their 'energy' against them in the best possible way.

I think this is what non-violence does. It's tactical- not passive at all.

Drag 'em up rather than be dragged down.

[andrewlittle]

The first is a couple of petulent children - perhaps even chimps - lokking for an audience for their moronic behavior. Your friends offense, then, is marginalized by the "laughing it off" reaction of the others.

I think his was the most healthy response and showed good self-worth. Marginalized people have always been taught that self-denigrating humor is a good reaction - it leaves the power in the hands of the oppressor.

You may wonder what this has to do with anything, but here goes:
My daughter once threw a tantrum in a grocery store - feet kicking, screaming bloody murder, pulling things from the shelf. Since I don't spank, and don't like to yell, I simply gathered around as many people as I could to watch her. She was playing what she thought was a trump card - parental embarrassment (don't ask, it always worked with my wife at the time) - to get what she wanted. So I just asked people to "come and watch this." After 20 or so people had gathered, my daughter looked around, turned beet red, and stopped. She was playing to an audience, but for my reaction.

In the first case in the restaurant, couldn't someone have reacted to the bottle blow-job by standing, pointing and saying, "Look everyone - they have something to say about us." Then sit down and ignore whatever else came along.

It wouldn't have ended up miminizing your friends feelings of righteous indignation, and would have, in fact, given something to laugh about that wasn't self-denigrating. If the man and his son reacted badly they would then be on show. I would think the demure and diminutive wife/mother would have had her fill about then.

The second situation - hmmm. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. In that situation, I think the best response is to totally ignore the advance (since it was so clear who they were), and get in the car and take off. There was no profit to be had in the encounter.

[paul]

andrewlittle (aka "aqualung?"),

I think your response to the first is brilliant.

Daniel certainly has the right attitude. Zen vs. Jesus works for me.

Keltic,

On the second case, doesn't the scripture that deals with same sex acts also have something to say about gluttony? Perhaps Scotts response to the overweight women was, er, "scriptural" (well, at least as scriptural as the womens response to him).

[tdogg]

The first situation, they were definitely looking for a reaction to their bad behavior. Andrew's suggestion was a good one, put the spotlight on them and identify and magnify their behavior. Perhaps a "go ahead, get it all out, then we can all sit back down and enjoy our dinners." Obviously they were people that failed to grow up. I'm sure the wife/mother was used to the bad behavior and has chosen avoidance to personally deal with the embarrassment.

The second situation, I'm sure the ladies were truly feeling like saving someone. Sort of like those knocking on your door to bring your their form of religion. Once my stepmom invited a couple of ladies in the house to discuss their religion...instead of them doing the discussing, she did the discussing. A devout fundamentalist pentecostal A of G, she preached it all to them until they were practically running out the door. Maybe a similar action would have been good, but it's much more difficult on 'their' turf as opposed to one's own. Ignoring them probably would have been better than falling into the reaction trap. I likely would have fallen right into that trap as well...

[keltic63]

The first situation, they were definitely looking for a reaction to their bad behavior. Andrew's suggestion was a good one, put the spotlight on them and identify and magnify their behavior. Perhaps a "go ahead, get it all out, then we can all sit back down and enjoy our dinners." Obviously they were people that failed to grow up. I'm sure the wife/mother was used to the bad behavior and has chosen avoidance to personally deal with the embarrassment.

I wondered about asking for a manager. I'm not sure what that might have done, but I'm sure that the manager would be interested in the comfort of the guests. For one guest to intimidate another would not be in the best interest of the management.

The second situation....... Ignoring them probably would have been better than falling into the reaction trap. I likely would have fallen right into that trap as well...

My question is, how can we help people respond politely and civilly when presented with this kind of confrontation? we talk a lot about the arguments, we need to keep calm in those confrontations and recall the things we have learned. truthfully, I think I would have done only slightly better than Scott, if only because I was caught off guard.

[Progo35]

Hmm...this reminds me of some experiences I've had...for instance, since I am vey bright (and very humble about it) most people who don't know me well can't imagine that I have a learning problem unless I tell them. So, I have had several encounters in which I've been sitting in a group and somoene has started to make nasty comments, such as, "My friend Bob is such a SPED. He tried to ask me out to the prom last night and I was like, no way." Or, "My teacher is such a retard. She should go teach the special kids." Here is some of what I said:

"I have a learning disability. When you talk that way, I find that very offensive. My learning disorder is a pretty rare disorder, so you may not have heard of it before, but I do have one and even if I didn't, I would still be offended by how you are referring to students who use special ed services."

A response like this just says it like it is, pure and simple, and humanizes the people being attacked. So, one way to deal with both these situations is to turn around and tell the people that. It sounds kind of preachy, but I think that marginalized people are perfectly justified in confronting the people saying such things and educating them. I think that some people respond to this kind of dignified reprove: they have to confront the consequences of their actions.

In the case of the women in the parking lot, after saying something like that, your partner could then just walk away and get into his car. Once he's made a statement in a fast-moving situation, its important to let the offenders know that you are leaving them with food for thought-not inviting them to have a full-fledged conversation on the topic, which would distract you from more important things.

Another thing your friend could have said was something sarcastic that was poignant, yet tasteful. For instance, when someone like the women in the parking lot say, "why did you choose to be that way?" you could say, "Because God came to me in a dream and told me to be that way, just to ruin your day." Then keep walking. That's kind of curt/mean, but it doesn't amount to a personal attack on the women themselves, and it implies that the women are asking about something that is none of their business.

I had a similar experience in a restaurant once, although I don't think that these people were talking the way they were to harass me. They were having a conversation amongst themselvs. But, while I was sitting there with my mom, they started making fun of deaf people using sign language and not knowing how to use it correctly and allegedly, saying racist things because of this stupidity.

Without turning around, I said loudly, "I use sign language!" My mom wasn't particularly thrilled, "shhhhh...!" she said, but, the people behind me stopped talking about that. Initially, I was concerned that the fact that I could hear them from in front of them would give away the fact that I did NOT use sign language, but, that really is just assumption because those with deaf people in their families or friends have to use it too. And, even if they thought that I had made that up to make a point, at least the point was made. So, you could have said something to the effect of, "I'm gay!" when those people started talking that way. Although, I understand that this may not be the right response since it sounds like they may have been saying that BECAUSE you were sitting there, and saying that you were gay might have just fed into their sick joke. But, then again, maybe if something like that were said, the parents would have to get a life and keep their kids in line. And, this method is fast and convienent when the two tables are close enough to get the message across without yelling across the room. It just calls the people's attention to how rude THEY'RE being in front of strangers.

So, that's my advice.

[BrentRichards]

Maybe he could have tried the line in your new signature?

Truthfully, I really struggle with this, meaning the second situation. The first situation is absurd enough for me to ignore, mostly, though my wise-guy personality wants to beat people like that at their own game and absolutely humiliate them ... ala the jerk at the restaurant one night telling his buddies how he had accidentally gone into a gay bar and how fast he got out ... I had to bite my tongue not to say "Buddy, you coulda stayed there all night and you woulda been FINE ... nobody woulda looked at you twice." Humor can be a great tool in this "fight," but I agree that self-deprecating isn't the right choice for empowerment and making a difference. Also, humor used against the wrong person can escalate to violence ... we know some of these guys are really OFF. So, for example, as tempting as it is, the best response to "F*** you, queer!" is probably not "Is that an insult or an invitation?" Don't say I didn't warn you.

In the second situation, I find people like that to be a direct affront to my faith, because it's based in flint-headedness, not in ignorance. My temptation, because of my solid Bible background, is to engage them and make fools of them at their own game, which I usually can. But that doesn't, in my experience, help at all. I think Andrew is probably right that just walking away would have been best, but I'm not at all sure it's what I would have done. I usually make some remark to the effect that it's a good thing God doesn't consult them on whom He may love, and then ignore them.

But I have to admit, throwing a couple personal shots in there is really tempting! "Are you gay?" "Yeah, are you fat? Oh, I see you are, and I didn't need a sticker to tell!" I'll try really hard not to do that.

[Emproph]

andrewlittle

I think your response to the first is brilliant.He's pretty good, keep an eye on him. I always try to slow down when I read his posts.

what would you do? what could they have done?
Paid their bill! Seared the memory of of four little f's forever into their supremacist little souls. :laughing:

-on top of what Andrew suggested of course. :rofl:

~~~
Seriously now, that's one of my worst nightmares. Not just the being harassed/insulted part, but also the not knowing what to do about it, but WANTING to do something about it.

Maybe we should find a comfortable way of broaching the subject beforehand. With friends especially, and possibly with family members and others.

Just having read that story makes me feel more prepared. Not only for that type of situation, but just being able to broach the subject at all.

I almost feel like the lesson is that it's important enough to SAY THAT it's important enough to discuss, because this stuff happens, and it's wrong bad and evil and we need to be prepared for it as much as possible without being paranoid about it.

Be prepared. Share Steve's story before every meal, and if the meal is still ruined by other guests in the restaurant, make a scene--and as andrewlittle said verbatim as far as I remember it--"With nothing other than the truth."

(See, I switched to goofy toons in that last paragraph and you weren't prepared...)
~~~

Hoodwinked - Be Prepared
TreGGyg6gOg
warning: if you listen to it once, you'll never get it out of your head.

[elcharrom]

Well I can't say what they should've done because you never know what you really are gona do in a situation like that, but what I can say is that look at it from their point of view, they don't understand what it feels like, they most likely grew up never actually speaking to a gay person without calling them a fag.

Sure they were inconsiderate (in each situation) and were malinformed but aren't we all? To some extent all of us must've been ignorant to others as they were to us, so I think it's best to let our struggle be known, all I see in the mainstream media are gay people with no faith in God, I have never seen (and this is the truth) a gay christian in the mainstream media (I'm sure there are, but it aint enough). All I know is I try not to react in a bad way towards people who make fun of me or insult me, because really all they need is Jesus and his words.

It's like how men will never know what it's like to be pregnant, straight people will never know what it's like to be gay, so of course them not understanding is expected. Someone can't be blamed for reacting in a negative way towards this, but you have to ask yourslef, will reacting bad make the situation any better?

[Daniel]

Paid their bill! Seared the memory of of four little f's forever into their supremacist little souls. :laughing:


F'ing brilliant Emproph! :D:lol:

Voluntary suffering at it's finest.

[tpdncr4christ]

Personally, considering the first story, the one about the boy blowing on his bottle, well I'd say offer him lessons. Something like, "Don't look like you enjoy it so much, that takes the fun out of it..."

As for the second story, whenever someone asks me, "Are you gay?" My response is always, "Yes, I am very happy thank you."

[Zerbie]

What both these instances have in common is that, above and beyond homophobia, they involve egregious breaches of social behavior, or basic human decency. Not that I would know how to respond, but if responding at all, we should respond more to the fact that they rudely crossed a boundary of basic decency, rather than "argue" the gay point. Arguing the gay point in response to their (pathetic) behavior feeds into the idea that there is some validity to their unacceptable behavior and that the "gay" person/issue needs to be defended.

For the first, I would have called for a manager to call attention to the lewd behavior with the bottle (which has NOTHING to do with my party enjoying dinner and EVERYTHING to do with the behavior of the boy with the bottle), and to request decorum in the dining room.

It reminds me slightly of the time I worked at a high school and when the kids found out I was an opera singer, one of them started making high-pitched vibrato-ey falsetto noises every time we passed in the hall. When I did not react, he finally asked me outright, "Miss Zerbie, aren't you embarassed?" I replied "Why, Scott? YOU are the one making strange noises." He turned beet red. He also never did it again.

For the parking-lot-ladies: Scott doesn't have to answer to these people. Ignoring them, or else a simple, "Yes" as he did, is probably the most that makes sense. Otherwise, what else can ensue but an altercation in a parking lot? He doesn't owe those women any kind of answer.

[tdogg]

Paid their bill! Seared the memory of of four little f's forever into their supremacist little souls. :laughing:


I wanted to say this, but Daniel beat me to it. Oh, I'll say it anyway...

BRILLIANT!

Great idea Patrick...I shall keep that one in the back of my mind....

[pnggrad79]

No one has ever come right out and asked me if I was a lesbian- I guess I don't look dyke enough. My mom asked outright if I was and I said yes, to which she replied, "You have sex with another woman?" I said, Yes, that is what a lesbian does, mother" Then she began to preach at me.

To the first situation with the boy and the bottle blow job- I teach 6th grade where crude humor like this is common. They call each other "gay" all the time. I simply call attention to it by saying, "Johnny, you are left handed, aren't you? Can you write right handed at all? No, because it is uncomfortable and it doesn't come natural to you, does it. The same is true with gay people. They couldn't change something that comes as natural to them as their eye color. Stop making fun of something you know nothing about and leave it alone." In the case of this boy, I would call the manager over and tell him or her that my dining experience is being disrupted by crude behavior and ask to be seated somewhere else. As I was leaving though, I would loudly whisper, "Straight people are so wierd!" and walk off.

To the second situation with the "Christian" women in a car, I would say, "Gee I wasn't aware that I was in Afghanistan and being hunted by the morals police. Where's my burka!? Since when is it YOUR business who I sleep with?" or say, "Tammy, is that you? Call me sometime, babe, we can go to Chances and have a really good time!" Then get in my car and leave.

I am sorry, I am not up to the level of Zen or peaceful resistance or something clever. I think "gay" humor by straight people just shows how stupid they are, and they have no clue what they are talking about.

These were unfortunate events and until more education is out there and society changes from being legalistic, we can only fight back with what we have-our colorful selves. :rolleyes:

[u-dog]

try to separate the desire to inflict pain in return from the desire to really affect the person to whom you are speaking.

For instance, with the women in the parking lot, Scott might simply have smiled engimatically and a little quizically and asked in return:

"Where did you get the idea that I chose to be gay?"

or if you want to insert a little bit of theology into the question he might have asked,

"What makes you think God asked my opinion or my permision before he created me?"

But either way... make it an actual question that requires an answer... not a rhetorical zinger.


In the case of the ignorant fellow diners your friend needed to decide whether he wanted to engage the people in some dialogue or simply stop the behavior.

To stop the behavior I would simply call over the waiter, ask to speak to the manager, and explain to the manager that the people at the next table are behaving offensively and request that he ask them to stop or seat THEM elsewhere, or ask THEM to leave. If he refuses to do any of those things then explain to him that since he is unable to provide for a safe and enjoyable dining experience, YOU will be leaving without paying your bill.

Your request should be made in a loud enough voice to be heard by other diners but not so loudly as to make a scene. The manager is going to want to do the easiest thing he/she can that will actually contain the encounter. You need to make sure that the easiest thing is the thing you want done.

If, on the other hand he wanted it to be a teaching moment, he could have just moved his chair over and joined the family. He could have said, in a cheerful and conversational tone, "I noticed you practicing felatio on your coke bottle and just wondered why you thought that was funny" Or "It seemed like your sexual encounter with the coke bottle was for our benefit and I wondered if there was something you wanted to say to us or ask us."

[RedneckDyke]

I usually laugh at them. Or tell them that Jesus loves them.(While saying to myself "Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are as asshole.):p

If someone threatens me physically I will defend myself.

There is a line in a movie about the civil rights movement called Freedom Song. The leader says "I practice nonviolence as a political strategy because it works but in my personal life...You hurt me I'll whup you like a rented mule."