estranged from family?

[KennethJ]

I'm looking for mutual support with others who are estranged from their families. I'm sure there must be others out there in the same situation I'm in... I'm not sure what form this will take (many of us probably don't want to share details in a public forum) so feel free to respond here or send me a private message. Maybe we could set up a private forum (here or elsewhere?) to allow us to share more deeply and support each other on the journey...
Ken

[Daniel]

Kenneth- Thanks for bringing this up. It's about time we had this conversation. And the idea of supporting each other is wonderful. My sense is that many come here because they are estranged from their families in one way or another.

I don't mind certain details.....(us performer types aren't shy!)

Though I see my family from time to time, I consider myself estranged from them. The reason for this, of course, is that they are- for the most part- conservative christians. They have a hard time with my being gay. Another factor is that I had very poor models as regards communication growing up. My parents weren't very demonstrative either. Of course, these factors have only added to the onus of being 'different' seeing that the family 'dynamic' is hardly conducive for change. It's skewed things as far as being able to address matters. And the times I have endeavored to do so- even in the most unconfrontational way- have gone nowhere. One is met with silence.

So- in brief- while we see each other in body, I have struggled my whole life with a feeling of disconnection. Of course, they have too.

It's a matter that's never far from my mind.

[keltic63]

Of course, these factors have only added to the onus of being 'different' seeing that the family 'dynamic' is hardly conducive for change. It's skewed things as far as being able to address matters. And the times I have endeavored to do so- even in the most unconfrontational way- have gone nowhere. One is met with silence.

So- in brief- while we see each other in body, I have struggled my whole life with a feeling of disconnection. Of course, they have too.

It's a matter that's never far from my mind.

let's talk about the weather. let's talk about what happened at the school board meeting. let's talk about doctor's appointments, and what kind of gas mileage we're getting, and how much the electric bill was this month. But don't dare mention how thrilled I am with my relationship, how much I love my boyfriend, or even that we had a delicious dinner at the home of another gay couple.

Neither one of us have told our parents about our Commitment Ceremony. He we are, excitedly planning for our big day, and we can't imagine how we're going to tell our parents. We "see" our parents regularly. Scott sees his mom and dad nearly every day. I see mine at least once a week. Shouldn't it be easy to announce that we're getting married? nope, we've been conditioned, much like B.F. Skinner showed with pigeons and Pavlov with his dogs, talk about anything gay, and the room goes silent. How can people in such close proximity be so far apart?

[Daniel]

Neither one of us have told our parents about our Commitment Ceremony. He we are, excitedly planning for our big day, and we can't imagine how we're going to tell our parents.

We did tell our families- one sibling of mine sent a horrible letter stating that she didn't think men should be allowed to marry one another, my parents sent a card, and from the rest of my siblings: nada. Not a word. Hubby's elderly mother was a dear- but was not able to come because of her health.

Keltic- I hope your invitation is responded to with grace and warmheartedness. From both sides.

[KennethJ]

Thanks for responding guys. Although I take no pleasure in your pain, it is good to know that I'm not in this situation alone.

Right now how I am feeling is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE should ever be put in this situation. No one should have to choose between him/herself and their unaccepting family. I devote way too much energy to this conundrum which I cannot win. I could be developing myself in other ways, but instead I spend my days wondering if it is possible to have a relationship with my family and retain an ounce of love for myself. I have had absolutely no support from anyone in my family. I love them dearly, but can't bare the thought of continuing to put on the mask they think is me (the person they are able to tolerate and accept). It's just too difficult... and results in some really messed up states of mind. For a long time, this is what I did, and I developed really debilitating conditions, and at my most vulnerable time, my sisters actually told me that I caused it because of my SIN.

And yet, i see growth happening. For a long time I just rolled with it. I just split myself in half trying to maintain a relationship with them and also be true to myself. I ultimately crashed, had a breakdown and took 3 months off work. Now I'm at a point of being angry for the first time, which is good. I just have no idea what the next step is. And I'm feeling conflicting urges.. part of me wants to shut them out completely, and the other wants to call them and try to forge some kind of new peace. Maybe the path lies somewhere in the middle. I don't know. I do know that I'm tired of being a doormat and I reject any god that thinks I need to kill my true self in order to be whole or holy.

[NathanATX]

Dear one...
You MUST learn to set strong boundaries with your family or anyone who might take advantage of their relationship with you in order to cause you emotional/mental/spiritual harm.

My mother is extremely fundamentalist. She literally burned my younger brother's Harry Potter book she found... the one he had checked out from the library... because she is so afraid of witchcraft.

She has been incredibly emotionally violent towards me because of my sexuality. She has literally been emotionally and mentally abusive.

Thats what it is, ABUSE. Call the shit what it is. And don't let them get away with it.

My mom does not have permission to say anything about my sexuality UNLESS I agree to the conversation. She is not allowed to ask me to edit my conversations about my life/dates/friends/etc. on her behalf. If she wants to be "mom" for me, then I absolutely insist that she act with the decency and love any sane, loving mother should act with. If she's not willing to do so, I have NO PROBLEM cutting her out of my life. While that might seem drastic, and I have done that for periods of time, it's actually quite compassionate.

She has to realize that what she has done is unloving, unChristian, abusive and unkind. It is hideously ugly. Shine the light of truth on the words & behaviors. Make them public. Make others know what they are doing and saying.

By not setting clear boundaries, you are giving them permission to do/say whatever they feel like. You're saying, that in fact, you're not sure if you're really right about all this.

And we both know that's b.s.

You're worth more than the universe in God's eyes. Remind your parents and family of this when they forget it.

Peace,
Nate

[BenL]

KennethJ,

I'm a gay man married to a transman. Charley, my spouse, began transition from female to male two and a half years ago. When he/we told our son and daughter, who are grown and out of the house, what Charley was doing, both children reacted very angrily.

We haven't spoken to our daughter since. She demanded that we stay out of her life. Last month she and her husband moved to the UK without telling us. We only found out a week or two ago from her brother.

Our son has begun to come around. We talk to him regularly on the telephone. In June, we saw him for the second or third time since Charley started transition. He lives in DC, and we live in MA. We see progress on his part, so we're not pushing for more. He still refuses to discuss anything about his mom's transition with us.

My parents are both dead, and I was an only child. I'm no longer close to my cousins, who are scattered all over the country. Charley's siblings are supportive, if a bit clueless, but we don't see them all that often.

Another couple we know (he's trans, she's a bio woman) are expecting a baby in April through artificial insemination with donor sperm. They have already told us that we will be the kid's local grandpas, since both their families live so far away. I find my true family now is my chosen family.

[dsdrane]

Dear one...
You MUST learn to set strong boundaries with your family or anyone who might take advantage of their relationship with you in order to cause you emotional/mental/spiritual harm.

My mother is extremely fundamentalist. She literally burned my younger brother's Harry Potter book she found... the one he had checked out from the library... because she is so afraid of witchcraft.

She has been incredibly emotionally violent towards me because of my sexuality. She has literally been emotionally and mentally abusive.

Thats what it is, ABUSE. Call the shit what it is. And don't let them get away with it.

My mom does not have permission to say anything about my sexuality UNLESS I agree to the conversation. She is not allowed to ask me to edit my conversations about my life/dates/friends/etc. on her behalf. If she wants to be "mom" for me, then I absolutely insist that she act with the decency and love any sane, loving mother should act with. If she's not willing to do so, I have NO PROBLEM cutting her out of my life. While that might seem drastic, and I have done that for periods of time, it's actually quite compassionate.

She has to realize that what she has done is unloving, unChristian, abusive and unkind. It is hideously ugly. Shine the light of truth on the words & behaviors. Make them public. Make others know what they are doing and saying.

By not setting clear boundaries, you are giving them permission to do/say whatever they feel like. You're saying, that in fact, you're not sure if you're really right about all this.

And we both know that's b.s.

You're worth more than the universe in God's eyes. Remind your parents and family of this when they forget it.

Peace,
Nate

This is one helluva good rant, Nate!

And you're absolutely right.

It never ceases to amaze me how many family members out there somehow feel that our homosexuality is something we do to them. Such is their self-centeredness and sense of entitlement that they cannot see anything beyond their own assumptions about, well, just about everything. And this can happen in violent and obvious ways or very subtle ways.

Harvey Fierstein's scene with Anne Bancroft towards the end of Torch Song Trilogy sums it up best for me. I can't find the quote online, but it goes something like: the only things I require from people are love and respect...and anyone who cannot give me those two things has no place in my life.

Amen.

[keltic63]

Harvey Fierstein's scene with Anne Bancroft towards the end of Torch Song Trilogy sums it up best for me. I can't find the quote online, but it goes something like: the only things I require from people are love and respect...and anyone who cannot give me those two things has no place in my life.

Amen.
I couldn't find that one either, but I did find this quote from Arnold, Harvey's character:

You want to be a part of my life, I'm not editing out the parts you don't like.

[pnggrad79]

Ken,
Like Nathan, I come from a very fundamentalist family, Southern Baptist. When I first realized I was a lesbian, I struggled with it for years before accepting myself. I was married to a man and had two daughters. Then I came out to myself, my girlfriend, and to God (like it was news to HIM). I hid this fact for 3 years from my family, although, they had their suspicions since I left my husband and moved in with my girlfriend. I got questions like, "Is she ever gonna find a husband?" or "Does she date anyone?", or "Why don't you try to get married again?" I thought to myself, "Yes she is dating someone, ME, and sleeping with me, too?" Finally, I came out to my two sisters, who summarily preached to me for 2 years, and then stopped talking to me. They told my brother, who has nothing to do with me, anyway. My sisters begged me not to tell my mother, because she would have a heart attack and die. One day, my mother came out and asked me if I was a lesbian, and I said, "Yes I am". My father called me and ranted at me for 2 hours one Saturday evening. He said that I was deceived, deluded and seduced. He said that if my children succeeded in life, it would be spite of me not because of me. He said that he doubted whether or not I was really saved, because I was choosing to live in sin... That was 3 years ago.

They don't know I married my girlfriend in September, 2004 in Canada. They refuse to allow me to come home for Thanksgiving and Christmas with my wife. I am not allowed around my niece and nephews. I get no birthday cards, and my family has not seen me in 3 years. They never call me. I have tried to call at least once a month, but like Keltic, we talk about everything BUT my wife, my life, my lesbianism. It is the proverbial elephant in the room. And then 5 minutes into the call, my mother conveniently makes up an excuse to have to go suddenly. There is always a roast burning in the oven... ( even at 10 p.m.)

Nathan hit the nail on the head-if they can't deal with the fact that I am gay, then its their problem, not mine. I refuse to give up the love of my life, for people who , even if I wasn't gay, would contribute NOTHING to my life. I refuse to live my life in a way that would make THEM comfortable, but make ME miserable. I refuse to believe in their God who hates me. I choose to believe in a God who loves me unconditionally, accepts my gayness, and has gone to great lengths to prove His love for me.

It gets lonely at holiday time, but my wife has been just wonderful. We go on trips so I don't have to be alone. She has sacrificed time with her family so we can be together. Her family is a different story. Her brother is gay, and lives with his partner in Abilene. He came out about 10 years ago. Her father outed her-asked her if we were married. She said yes. They are ok with it, but don't want anyone else to know. So they accept us, but it is kinda like the "retarded relative" that is kept in a back room somewhere, and not talked about. (Sorry if that offends anyone) At family gatherings, I am not introduced as her wife, I am the "family friend". So is her brother's partner. Sometimes I am not introduced at all. My wife and I have fought several rounds about this, and I am to the point where, if she doesn't acknowledge who I am, I am going to do it myself and it won't be so pretty or polite. ("Yeah, we're friends with benefits.", or "We sleep together", or "This is my wife, that's right, don't look shocked, she is my wife." )

It's not that she is ashamed of me, she is afraid of her mother being embarrassed. My point is if she were married to a man, her mother would have no problem at all introducing him as her husband. She agrees, but is too scared of her mother being embarrassed. What to do?

Anyway, that's my saga....:rolleyes:

[paul]

Hiya Ken,

I am sorry for your estrangement. Not only are you not alone, I'd venture to wager that estrangement is the rule vs. the exception. My own story, briefly, my wife loves me but thinks that my being gay means I am broken. My two adult sons want nothing to do with me, and we were very tight before my coming out in December 06, talking several times a week. They have chosen fundamental christianity over me. They are certain they know me better than I know myself...familiar?

I'm not sure what's more damaging, people who straight out (pun intended) reject you? People who pretend "you" don't exist? Or, my all time favorite, those who "love the sinner, but hate the sin." Can't you just feel the "love?" Well of course you can, that "love" helped you "crash and have a breakdown."

You say you are feeling "anger" right now. Sounds like you are working through the mourning process. Sad that, but often true. I read everones entries and just sigh with sorrow, because each is expressing a death in their family (our own). Sort of. The truth is, most of us were never allowed to live in the first place, and we are at varying stages of discovering what it means to simply be alive. I am sorry you have to fight for your life, but you are indeed in a life and death struggle.

Glad you are here. You do have family here.
paul

[NathanATX]

Paul is exactly right. You do have a "family" here.

You know why my mom doesn't have the same gut-wrenching power over me anymore? Because I have intentionally created my own "family of choice." I have women who are like mothers to me. I have men who are like fathers to me. I've adopted cousins, sisters, brothers, aunts & uncles... people whom I love deeply and are always there for me... and for whom I can always be there as well.

You have the power to do the same, my friend.

love,
Nate

[tdogg]

Hi Ken! You have come to the right place to find others going through similar circumstances as yourself.

Mine is similar to Daniel and Keltic - I have a handful of close family members from whom I am emotionally estranged. My stepmother, who used to call me a few times a week, never calls. She has huge issues with me being a lesbian and in a relationship. My father has no control over his life, he is a stroke victim in a wheelchair virtually unable to communicate. Although he has met my partner and seems to really like her, I can't be sure he understands completely, or that if he had his mental faculties he would or wouldn't have issues. Of course they are A of G, fundmentalists. I have a sister who also attends the same church, and after coming out to her, I'm pretty much out of the family. We do see each other now and then and she's very sweet, always gives me hugs and says she loves me. But of course the subject of 'gay' never comes up, they can't bring themselves to talk about it, or my relationship or my partner, much less mention her name.

I too am not welcome to their homes with my partner, we are not welcome around the children. I haven't seen my sisters kids in nearly 2 years. I don't see my dad much, although it's ok for me to go to their house alone. As I don't care to spend functions or holidays away from the person I love, I choose not to attend without her. When I am in conversations with them, I don't leave out any part of my life should a subject come up - I talk about 'us', what we are doing, mention my partners name, etc.

I also have an aunt and I was quite close to her. Like a third mother. We haven't spoken in over a year. Of course this is because I'm gay and in a relationship, and was not open to her attempts to 'save me'. Like Paul says, they always know us better than we know ourselves (in their mind anyway!). I choose to cease communication and to not put up with what I felt was abuse. Recently she send me a simple email that she loves me, I responded likewise and that's it.

I have a friend who, after I came out to her, send me her last words of "may God have mercy on your soul." Nothing else from her.

Otherwise, I have a large group of supportive, loving and accepting friends and family. Although sometimes it does hurt in regards to the others, my supportive family pretty much does it for me. I don't miss the others all that much really.

[KennethJ]

Everyone,

Thanks so much for your responses. I know that sharing our stories with those who can relate is powerful and healing. I hope this was your experience. I relate with so much of what all of you say.

I especially resonate with something Paul said: "The truth is, most of us were never allowed to live in the first place, and we are at varying stages of discovering what it means to simply be alive."

This is profoundly true. One thing I've learned is that, as glbt children of conservative christians, we had to detach from our "true selves" in order to survive. We weren't accepted for who we were.. and it was natural for us to subconsciously change ourselves into what our parents could love... at the cost of our true selves. All of my life I've been the square peg trying to go through the round hole. It's left me feeling deeply defective. Realizing this, though, is healing. It's like I've found my voice for the first time.

It really helps me to hear your voice, and to know that I'm not alone. In reality, we are a strong heavenly choir telling our stories. Keep singing...

[sailaway58]

This is an interesting look into relationship. I sounds like it is not easy for anyone to deal with these issues.
This past week I have been with my boys and my grand children. The first time we all have been together for a long time. The reason I may be a fake is while I am coming a long way toward acceptance and understanding of GLBT's if one of my boys "came out" I can't say I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact I hope to never have to deal with it.
As I read about what some of you deal with makes it even more understandable as to why I should not be silent about the inclusion of the GLBT community in our faith.
I am uncomfortable reading about your relationships, I can only imagine the difficulty in family relationships coming to terms with reality. My oldest son once came home with a girl we all learned to hate, that was tough enough.
(She is gone)

[pnggrad79]

Sailaway,
I am sorry you would be disappointed if one of your grandkids announced they are gay. Believe me, they would already know how you feel. I have a gay nephew who after seeing what his mother put me, her sister, through, will probably never come out, settle for a marriage to a woman he doesn't love, but will to please his mother, and be positively miserable for the rest of his life. I have another friend who is married with 3 boys and at least 2 grandchildren, who confessed to me his attraction to other men, but cannot face this fact, and will not follow through. He lives with enough condemnation from his family.
Point is, if you are inclusive in your own life, it will show. If you say nothing, your silence will say volumes. I have two daughters and if one of them were to tell me they are lesbian, I would be overjoyed! I would be glad that they could come to me and tell me and I would support them unconditionally knowing that they could be who they truly are. I want my kids to be happy, and if that means they are gay, fine by me.

[sailaway58]

Sailaway,
I am sorry you would be disappointed if one of your grandkids announced they are gay. Believe me, they would already know how you feel. I have a gay nephew who after seeing what his mother put me, her sister, through, will probably never come out, settle for a marriage to a woman he doesn't love, but will to please his mother, and be positively miserable for the rest of his life. I have another friend who is married with 3 boys and at least 2 grandchildren, who confessed to me his attraction to other men, but cannot face this fact, and will not follow through. He lives with enough condemnation from his family.
Point is, if you are inclusive in your own life, it will show. If you say nothing, your silence will say volumes. I have two daughters and if one of them were to tell me they are lesbian, I would be overjoyed! I would be glad that they could come to me and tell me and I would support them unconditionally knowing that they could be who they truly are. I want my kids to be happy, and if that means they are gay, fine by me.
It's not that I don't agree with you, It's just when these issues hit home what I say and what I feel might not be the same. I think I would be loving toward my children or grandchildren, I just don't honestly know how I would deal with the conflict in my spirit. I feel no real conflict toward anyone here or even those that live around me that are GLBT but you and they are not mine.
I guess my point in joining in on the thread is to say it is not surprising that families have trouble dealing with these issues, and to say hang in there, people change, hearts change, life changes us. We all want others to love us the way we are. shouldn't we also give that to others?

[pnggrad79]

Sailaway,
Why would you feel in conflict with me? I am a lesbian who would like to see the straight world shape up and stop being hypocritical about their own lives and quit pointing fingers at glbt's. I would like to see James Dobson shut his stupid mouth and quit spreading downright lies about us and keep his straight and very narrow opinions to himself. Doesn't he have a life?
I have no conflict with you, but if you really feel conflict being here, why are you here? I love your signature, doesn't it really say how you feel or did you just think it was clever? I guess I am just confused as to what you're really trying to say here.

[scott snedeker]

Ken,

I read your posts and I see my self years ago. I was a "null" human for many years in my genetic "family" because they either suspected or knew that I was gay. I came out at 26 (17 years ago).

I was the outsider looking in, a son cast out of the family and tolerated painfully.

My parents similarly went through painful adjustments and I had to endure hyper heterosexist rhetoric constantly from my father. I tried many ways of coping with limited success until I finally found something that worked.

First I had a one on one knock-down drag out with my father so there would be no collateral damage to other family members. This established one thing. My entitlement to basic human respect would never go undefended. If he wanted to be in my life from this point on that was the condition. If he didn't find this condition tolerable then I would disappear from him. I used my advantage. Time is on my side-- not his.

The second was one by one discovering a chain of beautiful people who showered me with love and a sense of belonging. I fell in love with one, then a second, third,......to five. A circle of six lovers that seems to grow each year. I feel like i am a six year old again where everyone loves me just because that's the way the world is. I am an insider of a loving, sexy, giving, web of gentle people. My family, the radical faeries :love:

Now I get calls from my genetic family with a tone of query. "why haven't you visited? What's going on in your life?

I am kind and generous to them. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But I don't want to share my precious private life with my lovers with them. It is sacrosanct and meets my needs and desires.

And it is ironic because now they are the outsiders looking for the in crowd. They see me glow with joy while they struggle with negative emotions.

Sadly it is something they won't understand, And it is impossible for me to share involvement with my family of lovers; each of whom holds my heart.

I feel pity for them if I think too long. They are the victims of homophobia, a great poison that suffocates love and joy......but only if you allow it to....:cool:

[u-dog]

;This is an interesting look into relationship. I sounds like it is not easy for anyone to deal with these issues.
This past week I have been with my boys and my grand children. The first time we all have been together for a long time. The reason I may be a fake is while I am coming a long way toward acceptance and understanding of GLBT's if one of my boys "came out" I can't say I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact I hope to never have to deal with it.
As I read about what some of you deal with makes it even more understandable as to why I should not be silent about the inclusion of the GLBT community in our faith.
I am uncomfortable reading about your relationships, I can only imagine the difficulty in family relationships coming to terms with reality. My oldest son once came home with a girl we all learned to hate, that was tough enough.
(She is gone)

Sailaway!

You may not know how you would react if one of your grandkids came out to you... but I do. You'd love him/her and you'd become an even more stalwart defender of equal rights than you are already.

I personally am glad that all 3 of my boys are straight... cuz at this point I'm in it for the grandchildren ;) but it always seemed like bad planning on God's part because I would have made a fantastic Dad of a gay son... anyway I'm hopin that at least one of my grandkids is gay because I will surely be ONE HELL OF A GRANDFATHER to a gay child !!

gay kids can and do grow up and bring home wonderful partners. they can and do make families and have children. They can and do have satisfying careers and can make you as proud as straight kids. the only bad part is having to watch ignorant homophobes disrespecting them.

Whatever brings you here to post... I'm glad you're here.

[Zerbie]

This is an interesting look into relationship. I sounds like it is not easy for anyone to deal with these issues.
This past week I have been with my boys and my grand children. The first time we all have been together for a long time. The reason I may be a fake is while I am coming a long way toward acceptance and understanding of GLBT's if one of my boys "came out" I can't say I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact I hope to never have to deal with it.
As I read about what some of you deal with makes it even more understandable as to why I should not be silent about the inclusion of the GLBT community in our faith.
I am uncomfortable reading about your relationships, I can only imagine the difficulty in family relationships coming to terms with reality. My oldest son once came home with a girl we all learned to hate, that was tough enough.
(She is gone)

Sailaway,
Why would you feel in conflict with me? I am a lesbian who would like to see the straight world shape up and stop being hypocritical about their own lives and quit pointing fingers at glbt's. I would like to see James Dobson shut his stupid mouth and quit spreading downright lies about us and keep his straight and very narrow opinions to himself. Doesn't he have a life?
I have no conflict with you, but if you really feel conflict being here, why are you here? I love your signature, doesn't it really say how you feel or did you just think it was clever? I guess I am just confused as to what you're really trying to say here.


Hi all,

PNG, as I see it, Sailor is still finding his way through the tar-pit of homophobia and just now unveiling what he knows is true in his heart. For all of us, this was a process of whatever length in time, and Sailor has shown himself a kind, caring, as Dave says "stalwart defender" of gay persons. I think it's very honest of him, and a fact of human nature as well, to admit that he would fear unprepared and tested, if one of his own children were to come out. How would he know how he would react, when this is something still new and theoretical to him? We've all dealt with the homophobic illusions we were taught, and now it is his turn - and he's a champion with a heart of gold. I absolutely expect that if Sailor had a gay family member come out, or close friend, Sailor will absolutely stand by that person in courage and love.


;

Sailaway!

You may not know how you would react if one of your grandkids came out to you... but I do. You'd love him/her and you'd become an even more stalwart defender of equal rights than you are already.

I personally am glad that all 3 of my boys are straight... cuz at this point I'm in it for the grandchildren ;) but it always seemed like bad planning on God's part because I would have made a fantastic Dad of a gay son... anyway I'm hopin that at least one of my grandkids is gay because I will surely be ONE HELL OF A GRANDFATHER to a gay child !!

gay kids can and do grow up and bring home wonderful partners. they can and do make families and have children. They can and do have satisfying careers and can make you as proud as straight kids. the only bad part is having to watch ignorant homophobes disrespecting them.

Whatever brings you here to post... I'm glad you're here.

Me too. Always happy to see you sharing your perspective, Sailor. :)

[sailaway58]

Sailaway,
Why would you feel in conflict with me? I am a lesbian who would like to see the straight world shape up and stop being hypocritical about their own lives and quit pointing fingers at glbt's. I would like to see James Dobson shut his stupid mouth and quit spreading downright lies about us and keep his straight and very narrow opinions to himself. Doesn't he have a life?
I have no conflict with you, but if you really feel conflict being here, why are you here? I love your signature, doesn't it really say how you feel or did you just think it was clever? I guess I am just confused as to what you're really trying to say here.

I may have not made my point very clear. As I am learning about these issues and how it fits into my life I find it easy to be accepting to others in general. If this came home it might be a little tougher for me, thats all. I am trying to be open and honest about my feelings concerning the GLBT subject. I may not always be where you or someone else think I should be and that is okay, I don't mind being challenged or given a different approach to consider. Just don't confuse my honest feelings with some kind of a personal put down or judgment. I am just here to understand, to find our common ground and to shake off some of the hangups I have.
The conflict is in my heart, not with others.
As for the signature I thought it was funny and this is the only place I go that someone else might agree.

[Zerbie]

Though I see my family from time to time, I consider myself estranged from them. The reason for this, of course, is that they are- for the most part- conservative christians. They have a hard time with my being gay.

. One is met with silence.

So- in brief- while we see each other in body, I have struggled my whole life with a feeling of disconnection. Of course, they have too.

It's a matter that's never far from my mind.

let's talk about the weather. let's talk about what happened at the school board meeting. let's talk about doctor's appointments, and what kind of gas mileage we're getting, and how much the electric bill was this month. But don't dare mention how thrilled I am with my relationship, how much I love my boyfriend, or even that we had a delicious dinner at the home of another gay couple.

Neither one of us have told our parents about our Commitment Ceremony. He we are, excitedly planning for our big day, and we can't imagine how we're going to tell our parents. We "see" our parents regularly. Scott sees his mom and dad nearly every day. I see mine at least once a week. Shouldn't it be easy to announce that we're getting married? nope, we've been conditioned, much like B.F. Skinner showed with pigeons and Pavlov with his dogs, talk about anything gay, and the room goes silent. How can people in such close proximity be so far apart?

We did tell our families- one sibling of mine sent a horrible letter stating that she didn't think men should be allowed to marry one another, my parents sent a card, and from the rest of my siblings: nada. Not a word. Hubby's elderly mother was a dear- but was not able to come because of her health.

.

T

Right now how I am feeling is that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE should ever be put in this situation. No one should have to choose between him/herself and their unaccepting family. I devote way too much energy to this conundrum which I cannot win. I could be developing myself in other ways, but instead I spend my days wondering if it is possible to have a relationship with my family and retain an ounce of love for myself. I have had absolutely no support from anyone in my family. I love them dearly, but can't bare the thought of continuing to put on the mask they think is me (the person they are able to tolerate and accept). It's just too difficult... and results in some really messed up states of mind. For a long time, this is what I did, and I developed really debilitating conditions, and at my most vulnerable time, my sisters actually told me that I caused it because of my SIN.
I just split myself in half trying to maintain a relationship with them and also be true to myself. I ultimately crashed, had a breakdown and took 3 months off work.

I'm tired of being a doormat and I reject any god that thinks I need to kill my true self in order to be whole or holy.

Dear one...
You MUST learn to set strong boundaries with your family or anyone who might take advantage of their relationship with you in order to cause you emotional/mental/spiritual harm.

My mother is extremely fundamentalist.

She has been incredibly emotionally violent towards me because of my sexuality. She has literally been emotionally and mentally abusive.

Thats what it is, ABUSE. Call the shit what it is. And don't let them get away with it.


Peace,
Nate

KennethJ,

I'm a gay man married to a transman. Charley, my spouse, began transition from female to male two and a half years ago. When he/we told our son and daughter, who are grown and out of the house, what Charley was doing, both children reacted very angrily.

We haven't spoken to our daughter since. She demanded that we stay out of her life. Last month she and her husband moved to the UK without telling us. We only found out a week or two ago from her brother.

.

:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(:'(

This thread should be required reading for every undergraduate in public university in the country.

I'm in that "no word" place, again, and forcing fingers to keyboard because this subject is too important to drop just because it's literally so heavy I can barely lift my hands to type.

I am just - devastated! - at the combined stories from so many of you, who have become my beloved friends in our months and years foruming. To them, I could add further stories of the friend who came out at 16 only to be told to get out of the house, and the friends whose parents still urge them to attend the ex-gay ministries - or my own cousin who was officially "dead" to the family for over 3 decades because he was gay so moved 2000 miles away and created a family of choice to replace us.

We attended a wedding yesterday. As the vows concluded and the just-married couple embraced and retreated hand-in-hand down the aisle, the crowd of combined friends and family rose in joyful standing ovation. Later, I thought of the contrast between the way their vows were received and the way Daniel's family responded to his wedding. I told hubby about the way Daniel's family refused to acknowledge his marriage. DH just looked grave and shook his head, saying sadly, 'that is the essence of the problem right there.' It makes me want to cry that something so important, so joyful, so fundamental to our lives could be ignored, passed-over, treated as shameful - - when it deserves to be celebrated.

Steve and Scott - I hope you will soon overcome your inhibitions about sharing your engagement with your family. I hope they will respond gracefully. The step you are taking is absolutely sacred, and deserves to be held the utmost regard. I hope those close to you respond with the dignity and respect you deserve.

What steps can we take to overcome these problems? I think everyone deserves time and second chances. But mental health is paramount, and if someone is constantly putting you down, you need to not hear those messages.

I love each of you very much, and will hold you and your families in my prayers.
:pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray::pray:
Much love,
Zerbie

[sailaway58]

;

Sailaway!

You may not know how you would react if one of your grandkids came out to you... but I do. You'd love him/her and you'd become an even more stalwart defender of equal rights than you are already.

I personally am glad that all 3 of my boys are straight... cuz at this point I'm in it for the grandchildren ;) but it always seemed like bad planning on God's part because I would have made a fantastic Dad of a gay son... anyway I'm hopin that at least one of my grandkids is gay because I will surely be ONE HELL OF A GRANDFATHER to a gay child !!

gay kids can and do grow up and bring home wonderful partners. they can and do make families and have children. They can and do have satisfying careers and can make you as proud as straight kids. the only bad part is having to watch ignorant homophobes disrespecting them.

Whatever brings you here to post... I'm glad you're here.


Many many years ago our family had a family friend that married had a child and then discovered her husband was gay. They divorced and her x chose to stay out of their son's life. He didn't want to influence him in a negative way. At the time I thought that was very noble of him and I think he had his son's best interest at heart, but I like your approach better.
That was around 35 years ago and times have changed a little. He was a good guy, a church song leader and looking now from a few years perspective, I am sure he loved his wife. It just wasn't who he was.
I think he and his son have met and have a friendship now, but he missed out on allot.

[pnggrad79]

Sailaway,
I can appreciate your conflict. God knows I struggled against my own internal homophobia for years before I just stopped fighting. Being gay hasn't been easy for me, but I wouldn't go back to what I was for any amount of money. I am proud of what I am, and I wish for the day when it doesn't have to be hard anymore for any gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender person.

[tdogg]

The reason I may be a fake is while I am coming a long way toward acceptance and understanding of GLBT's if one of my boys "came out" I can't say I wouldn't be disappointed. In fact I hope to never have to deal with it.
As I read about what some of you deal with makes it even more understandable as to why I should not be silent about the inclusion of the GLBT community in our faith.
I am uncomfortable reading about your relationships, I can only imagine the difficulty in family relationships coming to terms with reality. My oldest son once came home with a girl we all learned to hate, that was tough enough.
(She is gone)

Ok Sailaway, but the difference is, you are HERE. To get to know us and share with us, and open your mind and heart. That's the difference - you are right here with us. I'm glad you are here! :)

[KennethJ]

Sailaway: Can you imagine the possibility of meeting your gay family member's partner and really liking that person? Seeing that he/she really loves and cares for your loved one, and that they respect each other, and that the relationship is truly life-giving?

[scott snedeker]

Sailaway: Can you imagine the possibility of meeting your gay family member's partner and really liking that person? Seeing that he/she really loves and cares for your loved one, and that they respect each other, and that the relationship is truly life-giving?

Wow! that sounds like a good exercise in guided imagery! Maybe practicing it will effect changes! This technique has worked for me to embrace my entitlement to live true to my nature and restore/create self esteem!

[gman620]

I am not estranged from my immediate family, but I am estranged from several members of my extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins), although that has nothing to do with my being gay, and frankly I don't miss them that much at all. Sometimes we're actually better off not being around certain people.

I've been cut off from several friends because of my sexuality, but never anyone in my immediate family. Luckily they've stood by me thick and thin.

If you're estranged from your immediate family, that's undoubtedly the hardest to deal with. I can only advise you to try to cultivate relationships with other relatives or close friends. You can't force other people to accept you, but remember that over time people can change their minds.

Continue to have a strong and solid prayer/spiritual life. Consider getting involved in a gay-friendly church and other social activities.

Sorry I can't offer more. Good luck!

[KennethJ]

I would like to bring the thread back to the original focus of conservation between people who have experienced estrangement from family. I'm really not looking for 'advice' from anyone, ESPECIALLY from people who haven't been there.

[Daniel]

Kenneth- I'm finding the matter of estrangement from biological family to be a life-long journey. And now that I am nearing the half-century mark, certain things have come into perspective.

For one thing, I've made a life for myself, one which hasn't depended on my family. At first, when I was in my 20's, I was royally pissed off that my parents didn't 'understand' me, or 'get' what I was doing. In time, I realized that they hardly understood themselves, much less me. And at that point, I started to see them as people- not my parents. I guess this helped me have a bit of compassion for them- and for myself. I started to pull on them less. Let them off the hook- so to speak.

My parents are in their late 70's now. And I cut them a hell of a lot of slack: their concerns have changed radically in the last few years.

When I was in my mid 30's, I somehow got the idea that I needed to start telling them what I wanted to hear from them: "I love you." Words not in usage at the time. I thought: "Hell! Why am I waiting for them to tell me this? I'm the one who knows what I want.....so I better go first". So I did. Scared the shit out of me. But I did it: I started telling them that I loved them when we talked on the phone. The first three or four times there was silence on the other end. And then the words were croaked back to me in a far away voice. And I thought....."Well....that's a start".

Have we progressed a great deal beyond this? Not really. A little here and there over the years, small changes over a long period of time. While I once dreamed of a grand verbal acceptance, I now know it may never be possible because mine is not a family that 'talks'. At least not in the way that I've come to regard communication- a skill I've had to learn on my own. And their faith- combined with their fears- keep them from from able to engage in conversation about these matters easily. That said, I'm open to being suprised. Does it matter to me? Yes. Do I fuss about it? From time to time. Does it rule my life like it once did? No.

I feel my sometime need for acceptance is a hunger which I have to feed by giving what I want to have. Yes....it's all backwards as far as the world is concerned, which demands that we have what we deserve- now! But I take it as one of the curious things about love. It turns things inside out.

No matter what, I will go to my grave knowing something of the meaning of three little words.

[BrianB]

I would like to bring the thread back to the original focus of conservation between people who have experienced estrangement from family. I'm really not looking for 'advice' from anyone, ESPECIALLY from people who haven't been there.

It was the fear of estrangement that kept me from telling my parents for so long that I'm bisexual. I truly believed that they would cease talking with me if I came out of the closet. After much thought and prayer I wrote them each a letter to explain that I was involved with gay pride and that several of my friends at school were gay. Then I told them in the letter that I'm bisexual.

I fully expected that they would tell me that I was dead to them. The reality was that my mom said she loved me even though she believed homosexuality is sin. She did not want to hear about anything connected to gay activities. That limited our conversation quite a bit. My dad said he didn't have a problem with it; at the same time he didn't want to discuss it. That was my private life.

Mom asked me not to tell anyone else in the family because she knew that some family members would cease contact if they knew. So far, the issue has not come up with other family members. They live in other states so it's not as important that they know. If they ask me point blank, I will tell them.

[paul]

Many many years ago our family had a family friend that married had a child and then discovered her husband was gay. They divorced and her x chose to stay out of their son's life. He didn't want to influence him in a negative way. At the time I thought that was very noble of him and I think he had his son's best interest at heart, but I like your approach better.
That was around 35 years ago and times have changed a little. He was a good guy, a church song leader and looking now from a few years perspective, I am sure he loved his wife. It just wasn't who he was.
I think he and his son have met and have a friendship now, but he missed out on allot.

Sailaway,

I knew I was gay when I married (long before actually), but could not own the label because of my very conservative fundamental Christian beliefs. Instead I owned the labels of bent, twisted, sick, deviant, etc., for about 35 years. I disowned all of those labels only a year and a half ago. So, the reality is that I have been estranged from my self most all of my life. Me and my wife raised two sons, now 26 and 28. We were a very tight family, we homeschooled k-12 and both of my sons got full university scholarships based on their sat scores. One's a nuclear engineer, the other a teacher/writer/musician, so they are intelligent, even worldly. We used to talk for hours a week, they were always on the phone to me, never a separation. That all came to a screeching halt in December of 06 when I came out to them, now they want nothing to do with me. Now, lest you get the wrong idea, they have cause to be angry. I cheated on their mom and lied to cover it for a long time. Many can put a period on the end of that sentence and say: "okay, well Paul deserved what he got." And ulitmately, that is true. However, while I am without excuse, I am not without reason or understanding. I won't go into a detailed explanation here, but when you repress yourself, it comes out in weird ways. I fought myself tooth and nail for 35 years, and failed. To give up the fight, in my mind, was to turn my back on "God," and I wanted to be "faithful." I never said "bad" things about gays to my kids or anyone else. But since I owned all those bad labels, I didn't have to. When my kids would crack a joke about gays, I would 'correct' them telling them that gays didn't choose to be that way and that they were in a hard position. That's the only defense I had for gays since I bought into the labels I had been raised with, and it was inadequate. If someone, such as yourself, had had the guts to advocate acceptance of glbt people (i.e., me), in any of the churches I attended, my story might be different. They had the opportunity. I "confessed" my ssa to my church (yep, the whole group including my future wife) at age 19.

You say you want to understand, and I for one am grateful for your presence here. Gay people probably need straight friends as much, if not more, than they need gay friends. I have spent my life in fundamental Christian circles. Not once in all those years did I ever meet a "Christian" who had an affirming thing to say of gays. That could have been a rescue for me and my family. No, quite the opposite. They reinforced the aforementioned labels and added some of their own. At best, that part of who I am was a joke among my "brothers and sisters in Christ." My sons made similar jokes growing up. So I hid until the day that God would change or deliver me from being gay. I think that the worst estrangement a person can experience is estrangement from themselves.

[pnggrad79]

Sailaway,

I knew I was gay when I married (long before actually), but could not own the label because of my very conservative fundamental Christian beliefs. Instead I owned the labels of bent, twisted, sick, deviant, etc., for about 35 years. I disowned all of those labels only a year and a half ago. So, the reality is that I have been estranged from my self most all of my life. Me and my wife raised two sons, now 26 and 28. We were a very tight family, we homeschooled k-12 and both of my sons got full university scholarships based on their sat scores. One's a nuclear engineer, the other a teacher/writer/musician, so they are intelligent, even worldly. We used to talk for hours a week, they were always on the phone to me, never a separation. That all came to a screeching halt in December of 06 when I came out to them, now they want nothing to do with me. Now, lest you get the wrong idea, they have cause to be angry. I cheated on their mom and lied to cover it for a long time. Many can put a period on the end of that sentence and say: "okay, well Paul deserved what he got." And ulitmately, that is true. However, while I am without excuse, I am not without reason or understanding. I won't go into a detailed explanation here, but when you repress yourself, it comes out in weird ways. I fought myself tooth and nail for 35 years, and failed. To give up the fight, in my mind, was to turn my back on "God," and I wanted to be "faithful." I never said "bad" things about gays to my kids or anyone else. But since I owned all those bad labels, I didn't have to. When my kids would crack a joke about gays, I would 'correct' them telling them that gays didn't choose to be that way and that they were in a hard position. That's the only defense I had for gays since I bought into the labels I had been raised with, and it was inadequate. If someone, such as yourself, had had the guts to advocate acceptance of glbt people (i.e., me), in any of the churches I attended, my story might be different. They had the opportunity. I "confessed" my ssa to my church (yep, the whole group including my future wife) at age 19.

You say you want to understand, and I for one am grateful for your presence here. Gay people probably need straight friends as much, if not more, than they need gay friends. I have spent my life in fundamental Christian circles. Not once in all those years did I ever meet a "Christian" who had an affirming thing to say of gays. That could have been a rescue for me and my family. No, quite the opposite. They reinforced the aforementioned labels and added some of their own. At best, that part of who I am was a joke among my "brothers and sisters in Christ." My sons made similar jokes growing up. So I hid until the day that God would change or deliver me from being gay. I think that the worst estrangement a person can experience is estrangement from themselves.



Paul,
Please don't feel like you had anything coming to you, like your kids being angry at you. You simply fell into the trap of the fundamentalist lie that you are bad and unredeemable, and you felt like you had to sneak around because society and the church has so brazenly shamed us into back room behavior where we had to live out who we were in the shadows. I don't feel like you did anything wrong. I feel like what happened to you by those forcing their beliefs on you was wrong. What you did was a result of it.
I hope that your kids come around. Mine did. I hope you don't still struggle with this. It is a hard road, I know, but there is a lively, wonderful community out there to support you. :)

[RedneckDyke]

Hi everybody.

I don't know what my relationship with my family is. Most of them don't talk about it at all. My parents and my partner's dad did go to the union ceremony. Her dad helped out, driving a truck of chairs and stuff. My folks were a bit more passive-agressive about it. They put off getting dressed untill 15 miuntes into it. So we were late to our own wedding.:rolleyes:

I think my mom secretly likes me being gay. she likes being a martyr at times. She told her pastor what a trial it is having a gay daughter who wants to get married, and a straight son who doesn't. ( brother is not legally married but has been with the same wonderful woman for 6 years and has 2 kids with her.)

I have been with my partner for 9 years but my folks seem to think it's a phase I'll grow out of. Everytime I talk to them on the phone they tell me "We just want you to be happy. "
Drives me nuts.:rolleyes:

[pnggrad79]

Hi everybody.

I don't know what my relationship with my family is. Most of them don't talk about it at all. My parents and my partner's dad did go to the union ceremony. Her dad helped out, driving a truck of chairs and stuff. My folks were a bit more passive-agressive about it. They put off getting dressed untill 15 miuntes into it. So we were late to our own wedding.:rolleyes:

I think my mom secretly likes me being gay. she likes being a martyr at times. She told her pastor what a trial it is having a gay daughter who wants to get married, and a straight son who doesn't. ( brother is not legally married but has been with the same wonderful woman for 6 years and has 2 kids with her.)

I have been with my partner for 9 years but my folks seem to think it's a phase I'll grow out of. Everytime I talk to them on the phone they tell me "We just want you to be happy. "
Drives me nuts.:rolleyes:

Hey Red,
My parents couldn't give a rat's ass about my happiness. They said, "Being a Christian may not always make you happy. It isn't about your happiness, it is about obedience to the law." I am glad your parents at least participated in your ceremony. Mine would heartily protest and probably have Fred Phelps out in front with his signs.
9 years together! Wow! Congratulations! Keep showing them your love is real! I hope you never outgrow it.:)

[paul]

Paul,
Please don't feel like you had anything coming to you, like your kids being angry at you. You simply fell into the trap of the fundamentalist lie that you are bad and unredeemable, and you felt like you had to sneak around because society and the church has so brazenly shamed us into back room behavior where we had to live out who we were in the shadows. I don't feel like you did anything wrong. I feel like what happened to you by those forcing their beliefs on you was wrong. What you did was a result of it.
I hope that your kids come around. Mine did. I hope you don't still struggle with this. It is a hard road, I know, but there is a lively, wonderful community out there to support you. :)

pnggrad,

Thank you for your kind words, your being very sweet. I'm not trying to be self depricating, just ruthlessly honest. If we don't deal with the truth, what else do we have beyond delusion? I do understand the fundamentalist trap you speak of and find it astounding that it took me so long to extricate myself from it. One thing I did buy for myself, on time (whew, that was expensive), was the knowledge that I sincerely wanted to change. I believed at the time that's what "God" wanted as part of that "redemption." If there is a God out there who knows all and sees all, then I know that God has record of the almost constant 35 years of daily prayers, tears, and begging. For what? Not even deliverance, just the ability to not act on my ssa. That was probably the most devasting part, believing in a God who was watching me go through this but didn't intervene. The jokes on me, the God I was begging with probably doesn't exist. Not that there is no God (I don't know), just not the one I believed in. The rotten thing about the struggle being mostly secret is that my family doesn't have a clue. My sons both accuse me of not "having any balls" because I am not fighting this, they tell me to "man up." But honestly, I "did do something wrong." I broke my vows to my wife repeatedly and then lied to cover it up. There is no pretty way to put that and it is just simply true. I do understand why I did it and I have been able to forgive myself. My wife and kids still operate under the old label system so they cannot understand the why while maintaining their fundamental beliefs, so the estrangement continues. My wife does forgive me, and it's better than nothing, I suppose. But, it's without understanding, and there's certainly no acceptance of my ssa. That's the most challenging estrangement. Being married to, living with and trying to love someone who thinks you are broken.

[u-dog]

My sons both accuse me of not "having any balls" because I am not fighting this, they tell me to "man up."

Well, you didn't believe it when YOU were 28 and it was happening TO YOU. You can sort of understand why THEY don't know what the hell they're talking about. All they have to go on is an ideology. You had ideology AND personal experience and had to wait years to figure out which one was true. Someday they will want to know and understand you and will be ready to abandon the ideology that seperates them from you. Ideology is such a barren and unsatisfying substitute for love.


But honestly, I "did do something wrong." I broke my vows to my wife repeatedly and then lied to cover it up. There is no pretty way to put that and it is just simply true. I do understand why I did it and I have been able to forgive myself.

Like I told you in private, Paul.. Its the whole Jesus thing: "You suck... go and suck no more" :D

[paul]

Well, you didn't believe it when YOU were 28 and it was happening TO YOU. You can sort of understand why THEY don't know what the hell they're talking about. All they have to go on is an ideology. You had ideology AND personal experience and had to wait years to figure out which one was true. Someday they will want to know and understand you and will be ready to abandon the ideology that seperates them from you. Ideology is such a barren and unsatisfying substitute for love.




Like I told you in private, Paul.. Its the whole Jesus thing: "You suck... go and suck no more" :D

u-dog,

yep, I understand, I think I've even made the same point elswhere in their defense. Re the second paragraph and accompanying directive. I haven't for a whole year now.

[u-dog]

u-dog,

yep, I understand, I think I've even made the same point elswhere in their defense. Re the second paragraph and accompanying directive. I haven't for a whole year now.


That is NOT what I meant :eek: (:rolleyes:)

[pnggrad79]

Paul,
I had an affair with my now wife, while still married to my ex husband. Yes, I committed adultery, HOWEVER, that is in the past. I have confessed it and was forgiven by God. It does me no good, nor does it glorify God, to sit around and embrace past mistakes, failures, sins, etc... God is a god of forgiveness and grace. He doesn't sit there and proverbially pound you over the head over what happened in the past. God understands us as humans and he understands our frailty and our wayward hearts. That would be the whole purpose behind the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
I didn't intend for anything to happen with her, it just did and many times afterwards I would cry and swear I would never do it again. I finally decided to quit lying to myself about my attraction to her, and filed for divorce. I would have filed for divorce anyway, because he was a complete jerk. Our relationship had long been dead, when I began the affair with her. It doesn't justify anything, though. Adultery is wrong, but I maintain that if the church didn't criminalize gay relationships, there would be no reason to hide them.
Point is-please stop beating yourself up over this and tell your sons to respect who you are regardless if they agree with it or not. Are you still married to your wife? Are you in a gay relationship?

My two daughters were older (13 and 16) when I told them I was a lesbian. My oldest daughter has turned away from church and refuses to go to a church that doesn't welcome gay people. The younger one believes homosexuality is wrong, but supports me and loves me nonetheless. Both have marched in Pride parades and love my gay friends. It has been a journey but my kids love me and know that I wouldn't ever do anything to hurt or harm them. My being a lesbian does neither and they know that. It takes awhile. Give your sons time but don't let them beat you up over this.

Keltic has 3 sons and I think they have all come around and support him. He would be a good person to bounce things off of, he's been there with the wife and kids thing and understands the complexity of it all.

I hope things iron out for you and that your kids come around and you get some peace about this whole thing. :)

[paul]

pnggrad,

Again, thank you.

I don't think I am beating myself up, really. My brain understands why I did what I did. My emotions are getting better, playing catch up. My family, well, they have not had their whole lives to deal with this so I need to be patient. I don't really have any contact with my sons, 26 and 28, by their choice. It's just as well right now. I opened the door to let them vent and they did and I finally said enough so now they don't want anything to do with me. My wife is different. Yes we are still together seeing if we can "make it work." No, I am not in a relationship with a man and haven't been with a guy for a year...a record for me. It's nice being here (at soulforce) because I have a balance that I have never had before, i.e., people who accept me for who I am and don't consider me "broken." That really helps to not be alone because that's where the stupid behavior comes from, being alone, isolated. I agree that the 'church' has done a lot of damage by criminalizing gay relationships...it actually becomes a self fulfilling item. By calling what is natural for gays unnatural and wrong, gays often end up going about relationship in unhealthy ways and hiding. I won't go back there, I'm through with lies and cheating in order to accomodate someones beliefs.

[pnggrad79]

pnggrad,

Again, thank you.

I don't think I am beating myself up, really. My brain understands why I did what I did. My emotions are getting better, playing catch up. My family, well, they have not had their whole lives to deal with this so I need to be patient. I don't really have any contact with my sons, 26 and 28, by their choice. It's just as well right now. I opened the door to let them vent and they did and I finally said enough so now they don't want anything to do with me. My wife is different. Yes we are still together seeing if we can "make it work." No, I am not in a relationship with a man and haven't been with a guy for a year...a record for me. It's nice being here (at soulforce) because I have a balance that I have never had before, i.e., people who accept me for who I am and don't consider me "broken." That really helps to not be alone because that's where the stupid behavior comes from, being alone, isolated. I agree that the 'church' has done a lot of damage by criminalizing gay relationships...it actually becomes a self fulfilling item. By calling what is natural for gays unnatural and wrong, gays often end up going about relationship in unhealthy ways and hiding. I won't go back there, I'm through with lies and cheating in order to accomodate someones beliefs.

Paul,
Are you really happy with your wife? I know there is more to marriage than just sex, but that has to be difficult for you considering your admission that you are gay. If you feel more comfortable answering this in a private message, please feel free. If you don't feel comfortable of course you don't have to share this with me at all. I would totally understand. I have a dear friend of mine who is married with 3 boys in his 50's who is gay and has had a really hard time being faithful to his wife, whom he admits he does not love, but staying with her for convenience and not wanting to disrupt the family, but he is markedly miserable, and I feel for him.
I know this has to be hard for you and if you feel comfortable discussing it, I am here. I care about you and want you to be happy.
Your sons, if they love you, will ultimately come around, I hope. How long has it been since you told them you were gay?

[paul]

Paul,
Are you really happy with your wife? I know there is more to marriage than just sex, but that has to be difficult for you considering your admission that you are gay. If you feel more comfortable answering this in a private message, please feel free. If you don't feel comfortable of course you don't have to share this with me at all. I would totally understand. I have a dear friend of mine who is married with 3 boys in his 50's who is gay and has had a really hard time being faithful to his wife, whom he admits he does not love, but staying with her for convenience and not wanting to disrupt the family, but he is markedly miserable, and I feel for him.
I know this has to be hard for you and if you feel comfortable discussing it, I am here. I care about you and want you to be happy.
Your sons, if they love you, will ultimately come around, I hope. How long has it been since you told them you were gay?

Hi pnggrad,

No, so far I don't mind discussing this...I trust the people around here and wonder if it doesn't maybe help others to hear this discussed, I know I'm not unique. Am I "happy with my wife?" Not a simple answer. Sure, you are right that "there is more to marriage than just sex." Of course, there is more to being gay than just sex also. I love my wife and believe she loves me. Neither of our love for the other is ideal, but then, I doubt such a thing exists. Bottom line is I don't believe it's all about me and and it's hard to know where to draw the line, so to speak. I'm not talking about being a martyr, there's something delusional about that. But there is self sacrifice in love, on both ends. My wife want's to stay together, she calls me her one and only, so it would hurt her if I left. She would feel dumped. It's complicated, impossible to explain in a few short sentences. The question for me is not so much "do I want to stay with her" as it is "can I stay with her and what is the right, loving thing to do?" For years I worked enormously hard at being faithful to her, and failed. It's still hard now for me to say I couldn't help myself. That contradicted every thing I believed. Of course I could help myself, I just wasn't trying hard enough, or I was missing something or.... I strung myself along forever that way. I even had scripture: "that which I would not do, that do I do...who will rescue me from this body of death..? I thank God, Jesus Christ..." When I accepted my ssa, the compulsion to act on that attraction dropped away. Not that I lost my ssa, just that that can't help myself part was gone. I think it's very ironic (and forgive me to others who find me a broken record, I know I've said this elsewhere) that when it became okay for me to be gay I was no longer compelled to act gay (so to speak). You have to understand, it is relatively new to me for me to accept being gay and yet be free from that compulsive drive. A year ago I would have probably told you the right thing for me to do is to separate from my wife just to protect her from me (my penchant for failing when it came to being faithful sexually). But that part of the equation seems to be gone, I am able to be faithful now that I am not trying to be straight. You see, for 30 years all I wanted was to be able to resist my ssa. I didn't believe in such a thing as "gay." I was "wounded, bent, deviant"...you know all the words we are taught to describe our ssa. Once I rejected those words and accepted myself things flipped around. Now I'm faithful and honest but gay, vs. unfaithful, lying and straight. Gads, I am rambling, I hope I am making some sense? Things are relatively new as far as I'm concerned. I am examining and won't just kick my wife to the curb. I couldn't be happy hurting her. I am currently looking for a counselor for us, think we need one?:D

[pnggrad79]

You are not rambling, at least that I can see. You make some good points. However, have you read Mel White's book, Stranger at the Gate? He describes how being married to a woman and being gay for many years almost destroyed him. He decided that to be honest about who he was and to truly show love to his wife was to divorce her and let her find someone who could love her like she needed to be loved and he could pursue his ssa with another man and be happy. They remain great friends and she is one of his strongest supporters. I am not suggesting you do that, this is your journey, but it seems to be that your ssa is not going away and I think you are not only cheating yourself but you are cheating your wife. I think you two could remain great friends, but have a love life that is satisfying to both of you with different partners. Just a suggestion as something for you to consider. I hope I didn't offend you and you have probably already considered that. Married people need to seek that which is best for the other person, not what is best for themselves.

After I had the affair with my wife, I realized that sex with a man would not only be a tremendous disappointment to me, I couldn't make myself do that again especially when I had found what filled me up with a woman and not a man. If you are gay, you won't be truly fulfilled mentally, emotionally, or sexually until you live out this part of who you are. The longer you deny yourself, the worse it will get.

Again I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds. These are just things for you to think about. Read Mel's book if you haven't already.

[paul]

Kenneth,
Feel free to yell at me if you feel my exchanges with pnggrad are not germane to your original intent? I believe we are discussing "estrangement" here, but it may be off the mark of your purpose for this thread. Please tell me if this offends and we'll make it private?:confused:

pnggrad,

I guess I could read Mel's book. I guess I and many here could have written it also (though I for one, I am sure, could not have written it as well). My point is, I think my identity is pretty intact, it's just what to do with it. When my identity was not intact, I married and established a relationship. My situation, as you note, differs from Mels. My wife is still a brand of Christian that believes I am "broken." She wants to remain married. If I left, she would cut all ties not remain friends because to her way of thinking "leaving" would mean just that. It's very black and white for her. Simply put, I am asking myself: "what would love do?" I have to phrase it that way since I no longer believe I can figure out WWJD. :D
It's not as simple as whether or not I am "happy being married." I cannot decide on my own, with no input from her, what is best for my wife, nor can she for me. But I can only address my end and that's what I am attempting to do, rather than just bolt and try to escape a rough situation. It's not cut and dried.

[keltic63]

Keltic has 3 sons and I think they have all come around and support him. He would be a good person to bounce things off of, he's been there with the wife and kids thing and understands the complexity of it all.



actually, 2 sons, and a daughter.....

and yes, all 3 are doing just fine.

[pnggrad79]

Keltic,
Sorry man! I thought it might be 2 sons and a daughter, but I put 3 sons. Sorry. How are you doing? :)

[pnggrad79]

Kenneth,
Feel free to yell at me if you feel my exchanges with pnggrad are not germane to your original intent? I believe we are discussing "estrangement" here, but it may be off the mark of your purpose for this thread. Please tell me if this offends and we'll make it private?:confused:

pnggrad,

I guess I could read Mel's book. I guess I and many here could have written it also (though I for one, I am sure, could not have written it as well). My point is, I think my identity is pretty intact, it's just what to do with it. When my identity was not intact, I married and established a relationship. My situation, as you note, differs from Mels. My wife is still a brand of Christian that believes I am "broken." She wants to remain married. If I left, she would cut all ties not remain friends because to her way of thinking "leaving" would mean just that. It's very black and white for her. Simply put, I am asking myself: "what would love do?" I have to phrase it that way since I no longer believe I can figure out WWJD. :D
It's not as simple as whether or not I am "happy being married." I cannot decide on my own, with no input from her, what is best for my wife, nor can she for me. But I can only address my end and that's what I am attempting to do, rather than just bolt and try to escape a rough situation. It's not cut and dried.

Paul,
I understand that your wife may not be all that understanding and thinking you are broken is just wrong. The Bible calls all of us to be broken before God, and to empty ourselves of us, and let him fill us up. Please read Mel's book and try to glean from it anything that might help. I will continue to keep you in my prayers, as I know this is a hard thing to deal with. The main thing is that you are at peace with yourself.:)

[godschild]

Everyone in my family believes im gonna get killed for being gay and then say im going to hell. My girlfriend's mother thinks im the devil himself because her daughter has chosen to be with me rather than go to counseling to "change her ways." Its difficult because I have very little support but I pray to God to bring me around positive people that love God. To me..I have never had a real since of family until I have been with my partner. No one will ever come between that.

[u-dog]

welcome Michelle. We are those people who love God and GLBT people! Make yourself at home. join in the conversation. I am sorry to hear that your parents and those of your GF are not supportive. Cling to each other and make a new family!!

[andrewlittle]

Michelle, I love your screenname. The choice of "Godschild" shows strength and tenacity in claiming your likeness from God, and the eternal love God has for you, even in the face of familial rejection.

It's amazing that those people who believe that the nuclear, heterosexually coupled family is the achetypal creation of God for how all humanity is to live fail to see the unGodly damage that is done by it. Where is the reflection of God's love to be found in the way they ostracize their children - God's beloved? It is such a travesty - I can just imagine God weeping.

[godschild]

Thank you guys for the uplifting. I don't see how they can judge me either. My father was a habitual aldulterer that finally got kicked out the house earlier this year, but I am the one who is staying faithful to my GF. There have been many cases of malestation and rape from men towards me when I was trying to please people with being a "heterosexual", but according to them I have suck it up and get on with life pretending like it never happened. What about all the pain that has been done to me? I have liked girls since I was 7 years old. I dont understand how am I hurting anyone by loving some one who actually loves and cares about me back? Its all confusing to me, but I chose to keep my head up high and be proud of who I am and who God has made me to be. A strong, independent, and loving woman of God. No matter who tries to bring me down, I will always be secure in myself

[Holi]

Looks like an old post, so not sure if you're still around or if you got a support group together. Can relate to what you're looking for. Estrangement happens for different reasons. Sometimes you need a support system to get you through an issue, and sometimes there is some kind of abuse that you can't go back to and you need a support system at the commitment level of extended family. There are resources out there, like counselling, support groups, community groups, www.CreatingExtendedFamilies.com and more. Hope you found/find what you were looking for.

[SolApollo]

Regarding the "blame game," both of my parents asked what they did wrong in my upbringing or was I raped by someone in the past (seriously). Obvioulsy, I told them I didn't choose to be gay, and that is just some genes that made me this way. They are both wrestling w/ it, but said they would accept me & love me no matter (parents are divorced & re-married to other spouses now = divorce happened before my coming out). Mom said she will accept me & future partner (hoping he becomes the guy currently dating, but that's the future...). She cautioned to wait telling my dad until I am committed w/ someone as he may have panic attack (seriously, lol).

Estrangement? Not in a general sense, but I have estranged myself from dad's side of the family as they radical Repunlicans, fundamentalist "Christian" and homophobic (the teabagger variety, ugh). They have narrow viewpoints of the world and believe its "their way or the highway" so to speak; so I keep my distance.

[Gennee]

let's talk about the weather. let's talk about what happened at the school board meeting. let's talk about doctor's appointments, and what kind of gas mileage we're getting, and how much the electric bill was this month. But don't dare mention how thrilled I am with my relationship, how much I love my boyfriend, or even that we had a delicious dinner at the home of another gay couple.

Neither one of us have told our parents about our Commitment Ceremony. He we are, excitedly planning for our big day, and we can't imagine how we're going to tell our parents. We "see" our parents regularly. Scott sees his mom and dad nearly every day. I see mine at least once a week. Shouldn't it be easy to announce that we're getting married? nope, we've been conditioned, much like B.F. Skinner showed with pigeons and Pavlov with his dogs, talk about anything gay, and the room goes silent. How can people in such close proximity be so far apart?


You bring up some good points, Keltic. The first is people reconciling with the fact that you're gay. I have the same thing being transgender. Some folks can't accept the fact that there are other sexualities other than straight. What is a Committment Cermony? It's sounds very interesting.

Gennee