About the moderators decision re: my so called life

[u-dog]

May we inquire into the reasons that the moderators decided to close Allen's thread? :confused:

[Jamie McDaniel]

Hummm. I'm not sure the best way to have a conversation about this decision without talking about Allen and I don't want to add to his sense of being "in a ditch." I will just say that after reviewing all of the emails and slowly reading the thread (www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3423), it is my opinion that Allen's situation cannot be served by further participation in this forum. It would be a good idea if everyone who joined in on that thread were to review it first. Aside from the agreement/disagreement with the moderator action, some questions would be 1) How do we best deal with persons who behave on the forums this way, and 2) How can we more gracefully challenge someone who says the type of things Allen did about being gay? Looking back on that thread, it seems to me that a specific post by Allen changed the demeanor of that discussion. The post was difficult to read with its internal homophobia, but I would have liked to seen folks more carefully choose the words in their responses and try to steer the discussion back to calmer waters. In any event, I'm thinking situations like this are sometimes best helped by not engaging further.

[BenL]

... for your thoughtful response, Jamie. I concur that sometimes it's better to leave well enough alone. Not satisfying, perhaps, but better in the long run.

This may prompt me to start a thread on the homophobia we harbor for ourselves and and the behaviors we perpetrate because of it. It would be totally divorced from this previous thread.

[Daniel]

I feel that I bear the bulk of responsibilty for the 'heat' on the thread in question, seeing that I responded to the post in question in a vigorous manner.

I'm fully aware that my style of interaction may be too confrontational: it's not the first time that I've added my two cents on a thread and someone has ended up on the outs.

Perhaps it's time for a vacation. And a little more sitting on a cushion.

That said, it's mighty difficult to see someone suffer and let them go on suffering. I guess compassion means having enough strength to let another person do what they need to do on their own time- in their own way. In that sense, I take courage from the last words of the Buddha.

"Behold, O monks, this is my last advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation."

We can't expect others to do our work for us, or ourselves to do their work for them.

[Zerbie]

I guess compassion means having enough strength to let another person do what they need to do on their own time- in their own way. In that sense, I take courage from the last words of the Buddha.

"Behold, O monks, this is my last advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation."

We can't expect others to do our work for us, or ourselves to do their work for them.

Yep. You've nailed it.

[u-dog]

I feel that I bear the bulk of responsibilty for the 'heat' on the thread in question, seeing that I responded to the post in question in a vigorous manner.

I'm fully aware that my style of interaction may be too confrontational: it's not the first time that I've added my two cents on a thread and someone has ended up on the outs.

Daniel,

I would hate to see you go on a vacation. Your presence here is far too a)helpful and b) delightful to be without for any length of time.

Having said that, however, you can sometimes be a little... hmmm... abrasive? with people who are not being honest with themselves and I'm not sure that that is always the most helpful approach.

I didn't disagree with ANYTHING that you said to Allen. All of those things were things that Allen NEEDS to consider at length. The question is: did your approach and delivery of your insight HELP or HINDER Allen in accepting it?

Most people have well built defenses that are specifically designed to repel a frontal assault. Those defenses are almost always impregnable. It is best if you can get them to open the gates from the inside. Or failing that the use of "sappers" to undermine a corner of the wall is often effective in allowing your insight to infiltrate their defenses. Trojan Horses have also been known to work. I know from personal experience that my universal response to a slap in the face is a knee to the groin. ALWAYS. Doesn't matter A BIT if the slap was deserved or particularly well aimed. You hurt me... I hurt you. At least until I've had a day or two to think about it ... by which time the swelling in your testicles may or may not have gone down.

Its all well and good to HAVE a helpful insight. its wonderful to have acurately ARTICULATED your insight. But if it has no chance of penetrating the defenses... what's the point?

I find it is important to build an alliance with the person that I am talking to before I do any serious confrontation or intervention.

just my two cents

[Zerbie]

Beautiful Udog, that's all true.

Before I'm going to be open to someone's "reading" of me and my problems, we have to have a relationship where that person has established trustworthiness in my sight. Otherwise, I'm not going to be open to a single thing said. While truthfulness is a wonderful quality, it needs gentleness as a companion or it will not have the desired effect.

In future, with conversations like the one that prompted these observations, we need to exert the utmost gentleness. Visitors like Allen are full of pain. There is no need for us to defend ourselves against them, since it is really their own perception of The Whole World they are fighting, not us. Statements like "of course I wish I were straight, who wouldn't?" tell us all about the suffering of the person saying them - they are not nearly so much judgements of the rest of us as cries of pain. Respond with gentleness and let them develop trust in us before we respond with a diagnosis.

[u-dog]

Yes Zerb. Thats it exactly. Thank you for saying it better than I did.

[wmanion]

I would like to also add that depending on where one is on their own road to acceptance their perception is altered. In our own lives, how many times have we misread someone because of our own perception about ourselves was being altered by the circumstances of our lives? I peronally would not have taken anything Daniel said as offensive but I am at a different point in my acceptance. Daniel always ended his posts with love and empathy for the situation. I agree that sometimes tough love is not the answer, but sometimes it is the only way to reach someone. I can only hope and pray that a seed was planted that when perception has changed that will blossom into true liberation. I think prayer and supplication is what is needed in this case and I hope that freedom is acheived.

Bill

[pnggrad79]

Sometimes I tend to ramble and when I look back at some of my posts, I can be bitter and vengeful. I don't like to see myself that way, but alas, I must own that part of myself. My whole intent and purpose in joining these forums was to meet people like myself who grew up fundamentalist and have had a rough time dealing with their same sex attraction. It has been three years and I still feel some resentment towards my family and other people who have rejected me for no other reason other than I love a woman. I hope within time I can learn to accept with grace the journey that people like Allen are on, and pray that acceptance is not far down the road. It took me 12 years to come to terms with this, and I suspect a lot more to be gracious about it. I can't expect my family to just readily accept this because like me, I know they are struggling with it, too. I was already 12 years into it when I finally quit fighting with it and just decided to let go of it.

Thanks to all who have put up with the "nonsensical ravings of a lunatic mind". You all have been gracious, and wonderful to me.

Grace and peace to Allen. :pray: