Return to ministry?

[antonyh]

I've never really broached this subject on Soulforce, but this is probably the right place to do it. I think the discussion could certainly help others as well. I am one of many who felt called into ministry, went to seminary and then ended up terminating this career path because of sexual orientation (went to an evangelical seminary). In my case I decided early on to cut my losses and to pursue a business career. This has been the case now for a decade.

If I am totally honest, I still want to be in the ministry. There is not a day that goes by where I don't feel that desire. I honestly don't know where to begin to make this happen and I still wonder if it is a wise decision given the animosity in the Church toward LGBT people. I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

I have contemplated attending the United Church of Christ and seeing if I could feel at home there. If I decide to move in this direction, it would be a five year project. Like I say, given my estrangement from the church, I am not sure where to begin...or even if I should begin.

[Zerbie]

I've never really broached this subject on Soulforce, but this is probably the right place to do it. I think the discussion could certainly help others as well. I am one of many who felt called into ministry, went to seminary and then ended up terminating this career path because of sexual orientation (went to an evangelical seminary). In my case I decided early on to cut my losses and to pursue a business career. This has been the case now for a decade.

If I am totally honest, I still want to be in the ministry. There is not a day that goes by where I don't feel that desire. I honestly don't know where to begin to make this happen and I still wonder if it is a wise decision given the animosity in the Church toward LGBT people. I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

I have contemplated attending the United Church of Christ and seeing if I could feel at home there. If I decide to move in this direction, it would be a five year project. Like I say, given my estrangement from the church, I am not sure where to begin...or even if I should begin.

Since the desire is there every day, I think you should go for it.

Researching it and putting some feelers out into various faith communities does not commit you to full-time ministry for the rest of your life, but if that IS something you might want, it's the first step towards finding out. And finding your right place.

Get out there and check out the UCC, since you've felt prompted.

It seems to me that Jesus had a bit of a major "beef" with the prevailing religious society of his day, so if you have a "beef with Christianity" that's all for the good. All that much more you have to give.

And you have a lot to give.

[Gennee]

Act upon the urge and go for it. Quite possibly, God is leading you in that direction. Pray :pray:for guidance while you move forward.

Gennee

:)

[BenL]

I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

Antony,

As a person who has started seminary and left, I understand your hesitation. This will take prayer and consultation. Since you've put ministry on hold for 10 years, you now have time on your side. The "major beef" is probably a strength, as long as you can keep it from becoming a chip on your shoulder. There are certainly a lot of us glbt folks who need to be ministered to. We find ourselves often in positions of ministering to our pastors, who need to grow beyond the walls they have around them.

I can also understand your hesitation from a purely practical point of view. I know I would be afraid of being hurt again, of having my hopes dashed, of yet another rejection. :( But that's me. :rolleyes: You may want to do some spiritual counseling first just to test the idea with someone you trust.

[paul]

Hi Antony,

A couple of thoughts, for what they may be worth to you. Perhaps that's why it's called "two cents?"

Who do you believe "called" you into ministry in the first place? If you believe it was God, did God ever rescind that call?

It seems to me there was a fair amount of "animosity" from the 'believers' towards Jesus' ministry. He also seemed to have a beef with them.

"If God be for you, who can be against you?" Well, lots of people actually, eh? But if you believe God is for you, will it matter to much that people are against you?

[Daniel]

I have contemplated attending the United Church of Christ and seeing if I could feel at home there. If I decide to move in this direction, it would be a five year project. Like I say, given my estrangement from the church, I am not sure where to begin...or even if I should begin.

The word 'should' sounds like a guilt word. Or at least a signifiier or some 'uncooked' stuff lurking in the shadows.

My sense is that you won't 'know' anything until you put yourself out there in some way, and have 'real time' feedback via places and people. Doing this will clarify matters. In the end, the only persmission you need is your own.

[pnggrad79]

If you feel called, Antony, by all means pursue it to see exactly where God is leading you and to what He has called you to do. Otherwise, you may be sitting around the rest of your life wondering, what it? You will never know until you try. Gays and lesbians are a hurting community and need to comfort and guidance of other gays and lesbians who have found an anchor in their faith and can be of real assistance to those who have lost their way. If you want to do something part time, or unpaid to see if that is your niche, that might be an option. Just a suggestion. But I don't personally think God rescinds the call on a person's life, however, I do think it may not be what we think it is. The more you make yourself available the more you will know what you are supposed to do. :pray:

[antonyh]

Thank you for all the wonderful comments. Here are some replies:


It seems to me that Jesus had a bit of a major "beef" with the prevailing religious society of his day, so if you have a "beef with Christianity" that's all for the good. All that much more you have to give.


Thanks Zerbie. This is insightful. I have a question. Do you know of any minister in an institutional setting that is really bucking the prevailing religious society? I know of one pastor that attempted it...Greg Dell in Chicago...and they suspended him until he came into a measurable level of conformity with the United Methodist Church. So I am left wondering if you could really be free to tackle the difficult aspects of ministry while being constrained in a denominational box. This critique extends to "progressive" pastors that maintain a professional politeness toward some of the hateful ways of their evangelical cousins. Religion is this untouchable category. This is the very criticism that Sam Harris and the cadre of atheists have with progressives. Would Jesus take an institutional church position today? Probably not. I think this is what makes Soulforce controversial and also hatecrimesbill.org. We're tackling religious based bigotry and it tramples on this understood nicety we're supposed to give religious people.
[/QUOTE]


I can also understand your hesitation from a purely practical point of view. I know I would be afraid of being hurt again, of having my hopes dashed, of yet another rejection. But that's me. You may want to do some spiritual counseling first just to test the idea with someone you trust.

Who do you believe "called" you into ministry in the first place? If you believe it was God, did God ever rescind that call?


I have to put food on the table. From that standpoint, ministry is definitely is a very high risk endeavor if you're gay. Period. Even if you're in a more progressive denomination, it can be risky. Look at the schism in the Episcopal church.

I used to believe God called me into the ministry. Now I am not sure it was God or just me. Who really knows? I guess I have the desire to do this because I want to see justice in the world and perceive that the church would allow me to devote my time to this instead of enriching the great corporation.


The word 'should' sounds like a guilt word. Or at least a signifiier or some 'uncooked' stuff lurking in the shadows.


You're right that this ministry issue is 'uncooked'. I have tried to nail it to the cross, but it keeps nagging at me. There is the obvious 8 years of my life I devoted to Bible College and Seminary that seems completely lost except for the excellent liberal arts education (at Seminary anyway). I guess it is hard to just put this to bed. There is an injustice here as anyone who has had to cut their losses in this way would say. That said, resolution is important, I agree.


Gays and lesbians are a hurting community and need to comfort and guidance of other gays and lesbians who have found an anchor in their faith and can be of real assistance to those who have lost their way. If you want to do something part time, or unpaid to see if that is your niche, that might be an option. Just a suggestion. But I don't personally think God rescinds the call on a person's life, however, I do think it may not be what we think it is.


I would not classify myself as someone who has an anchor in their faith. I have an anchor in something, but it is much broader. I think you are right about "may not be what we think it is."

That is what I need to figure out for sure. I need to think way out side the box...one of the great gifts of the queer experience.

[BrentRichards]

I found this book to be somewhat helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Listening-Hearts-Discerning-Call-Community/dp/0819215635

The approach of discerning call in community, rather than just as an individual, seems valuable to me.

[antonyh]

I found this book to be somewhat helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/Listening-Hearts-Discerning-Call-Community/dp/0819215635

The approach of discerning call in community, rather than just as an individual, seems valuable to me.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will pick it up and read it.

[Daniel]

I used to believe God called me into the ministry. Now I am not sure it was God or just me. Who really knows? I guess I have the desire to do this because I want to see justice in the world and perceive that the church would allow me to devote my time to this instead of enriching the great corporation.

And I've mentioned it to various people here over the past year.

The Soul's Code by James Hillman

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780446673716&itm=1

It's definitely thinking outside the box material. Hillman's thesis is a riff on the ancient idea of the daemon- an experience that presents itself in childhood and reveals the Self to the individual in terms of it's involvement in the world.

I mention this book because whether you see yourself as being called by God or youself isn't as important - I think- in the long run. It's what you do with the stuff inside the 'container' called 'God' and 'myself' that important.

Thinking about your life as a big arch might be helpful. And this book does that. And rather than 'nail' this calling to the cross, how about giving it some room to breath? My sense is that this kind of expression of the soul has it's own life.

Heck. You could start your own ministry, rather than fit into anyone else's box.

[antonyh]

And I've mentioned it to various people here over the past year.

The Soul's Code by James Hillman

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780446673716&itm=1

It's definitely thinking outside the box material. Hillman's thesis is a riff on the ancient idea of the daemon- an experience that presents itself in childhood and reveals the Self to the individual in terms of it's involvement in the world.

I mention this book because whether you see yourself as being called by God or youself isn't as important - I think- in the long run. It's what you do with the stuff inside the 'container' called 'God' and 'myself' that important.

Thinking about your life as a big arch might be helpful. And this book does that. And rather than 'nail' this calling to the cross, how about giving it some room to breath? My sense is that this kind of expression of the soul has it's own life.

Heck. You could start your own ministry, rather than fit into anyone else's box.

Thanks for the recommendation. It looks like a great book. Start my own ministry...unsupervised? :lol:

[Daniel]

Thanks for the recommendation. It looks like a great book. Start my own ministry...unsupervised? :lol:


Yeah.....why not?

I guess it all depends on how one defines ministry.

And I don't know about you, but as I age, I really don't need someone looking over my shoulder. I mean, who looks over the Pope's shoulder?

I say be your own Pope. :lol:

He's a big ol' queen after all! :eek::D

[antonyh]

Yeah.....why not?

I guess it all depends on how one defines ministry.

And I don't know about you, but as I age, I really don't need someone looking over my shoulder. I mean, who looks over the Pope's shoulder?

I say be your own Pope. :lol:

He's a big ol' queen after all! :eek::D

:lol: Pope Antony...Pope Daniel...want to co-pope with me?

[Daniel]

:lol: Pope Antony...Pope Daniel...want to co-pope with me?

I don't share power! You'll have to form your own denomination. Those red heeled shoes are mine!

[andrewlittle]

There is a process called, by some, a Discernment Meeting. I used this process when I was wrestling with my call. Basically the problem I had was whether the call was from God, my inner desires or the unterior motives of others. I asked myself, "what would God want with yet another recovering (?) control freak in the pulpit, especially one who was a recovering addict, alcoholic and power-monger?"

The process is best described as a listing and hearing session (harking to the other posts), but relies on the listening abilities of a few trusted people, not all of whom should be biased towards supporting you. Just like in Spiritual Direction, they listen to you and ask probing questions about what you say - not what they think about what you said. If you said, " I have a beef with the church", they could say "describe your feelings about the church" or "why do you call it a beef?" or "what do you mean by church?", but not something like "don't you think it's judgmental to have a beef with the church?"

I know that's a weak example, but I hope it gets the point across. My session lasted 5 and 1/2 hours and involved 5 listeners/questioners. In the end they did not give an opinion. That was between me and God. The idea is to pull out of you what you already know, or what God intends for you to learn about yourself and the call.

For me, it was an incredible experience.

[antonyh]

There is a process called, by some, a Discernment Meeting. I used this process when I was wrestling with my call. Basically the problem I had was whether the call was from God, my inner desires or the unterior motives of others. I asked myself, "what would God want with yet another recovering (?) control freak in the pulpit, especially one who was a recovering addict, alcoholic and power-monger?"


Just a general comment. I would say that these life experiences are what shape you into a great minister.


The process is best described as a listing and hearing session (harking to the other posts), but relies on the listening abilities of a few trusted people, not all of whom should be biased towards supporting you. Just like in Spiritual Direction, they listen to you and ask probing questions about what you say - not what they think about what you said. If you said, " I have a beef with the church", they could say "describe your feelings about the church" or "why do you call it a beef?" or "what do you mean by church?", but not something like "don't you think it's judgmental to have a beef with the church?"

I know that's a weak example, but I hope it gets the point across. My session lasted 5 and 1/2 hours and involved 5 listeners/questioners. In the end they did not give an opinion. That was between me and God. The idea is to pull out of you what you already know, or what God intends for you to learn about yourself and the call.

For me, it was an incredible experience.

That would be a great exercise to go through and I am sure would clarify many things. Were you in the Quaker church at the time or were you just using the quaker tradition?

[antonyh]

I don't share power! You'll have to form your own denomination. Those red heeled shoes are mine!

I'd give you your own wing at the Vatican :D

[BenL]

The process is best described as a listing and hearing session (harking to the other posts), but relies on the listening abilities of a few trusted people, not all of whom should be biased towards supporting you. Just like in Spiritual Direction, they listen to you and ask probing questions about what you say - not what they think about what you said. If you said, " I have a beef with the church", they could say "describe your feelings about the church" or "why do you call it a beef?" or "what do you mean by church?", but not something like "don't you think it's judgmental to have a beef with the church?"

Whenever an Episcopal parish sponsors a candidate for ordination, it has to form a discernment committee, which sits with the candidate multiple times over a period of time to do just this kind of discernment. It only works well if everyone, including the candidate, is honest and open to the Spirit. If it's a love-fest, with all the candidate's favorite parishioners, then it tends to be a rubber stamp and misses a great opportunity to focus the candidate's sense of calling. If it's made up only of people who are grudging in their support, the candidate ends up defending everything she/he says, which can be wearing and frustrating. So, the makeup of the committee is crucial. Objectivity and a little worldly experience are important ingredients along with the honesty and openness mentioned above. This kind of exercise can be used outside of an institutional setting if you can find willing participants. It's best done in a retreat setting, that is apart from the rat race most of us find ourselves caught up in.

[Zerbie]

I don't share power! You'll have to form your own denomination. Those red heeled shoes are mine!

Ha! I'll fight ya for 'em! :smashy:

I've waited my whole life for them to tap me for Pope. When are they gonna figger it out? I'd set the church straight. . . err, well, maybe not ***strai---ght***. . . .:p:lol:

[u-dog]

Yeah.....why not?

I guess it all depends on how one defines ministry.

And I don't know about you, but as I age, I really don't need someone looking over my shoulder. I mean, who looks over the Pope's shoulder?

I say be your own Pope. :lol:

He's a big ol' queen after all! :eek::D


Sorry... I totally disagree. Human beings are depraved... even a decent "Joe" like you Antony. Jim Jones was a hell of a decent guy who was all about social justice and equality but he ended up sexually abusing his followers and thousands of people ended their lives drinking cyanide laced kool-aid. Who needs someone looking over their shoulder? YOU DO. So do I. So does Daniel even if he doesn't like it very much.

Find a Christian community that feeds you and open yourself to a call to whatever form of ministry God may have in mind. Go back to Seminary by all means. That is worth doing on its own merits regardless of what you end up doing to serve God and the world. Start your own ministry by all means but makes sure there is someone who is paying attention so that when you start to become Jim Jones somebody is empowered to smack you. ("Snap out of it Antony!")

[Daniel]

Here's a first-hand example where a person started a 'ministry'.

Imagine a huge NYC based organization which provides meals to those with AIDS. The founder got the idea for providing this service while manning a sidewalk hotdog stand in the Wall Street district. She also happened to a devoteee of an Indian Guru, but that's another story. I make this point though, because she believed in 'serving others'' as a spiritual practice.

Long story short, she founded the organization by going ahead and making meals at home and delivering them to people. Within a short time, she had people deliving them with her and people throwing money at her. It was the first decade of the AIDS epidemic after all. In time, she needed a bigger place. To keep things running and the organziation intact, she choose a board to watch over things.

The irony? While the lady was a maverick, she overstepped her authority and to be deposed by the very board she wisely chose. She no longer serves as executive director. Yet- the organiation continutes without her. ;)

Are people depraved? I don't think so.


de·praved
adj.
Morally corrupt; perverted

This implies (sorry -udog) a 'defective-out-of-the-box' view of humanity. Can people make stupid, ignorant and ego-based decisions which lead them in the wrong direction? You bet! However, I don't think the exception proves the rule.

~

Another thought comes to mind here. We are such 'herd' creatures, aren't we? The person who gets out in front of the herd is either a genius or a madman according to those being him/her. Creating a structure - like a church or a ministry- which does not fall within the accepted norms - takes a heck of a lot of ego, drive and self-confidence. The truth is, it's easier to fit in with what is already there. But that's thinking inside the box.

Jesus was a maverick. And he wanted us to be like him, didn't he?

[u-dog]

In time, she needed a bigger place. To keep things running and the organziation intact, she choose a board to watch over things.

The irony? While the lady was a maverick, she overstepped her authority and to be deposed by the very board she wisely chose. She no longer serves as executive director. Yet- the organiation continutes without her. ;)

Daniel, this is my point exactly. her inate depravity caused her to overstep. However, her AWARENESS of her own inate depravity had previously caused her to develop a board capable of holding her accountable. It did. I admire this woman even though I don't know who she is. No doubt Antony could begin a new ministry, but if he does it outside of a structure of accountability (like a denomination) then he will need to CREATE a structure of accountability.

Are people depraved? I don't think so. This implies (sorry -udog) a 'defective-out-of-the-box' view of humanity. Can people make stupid, ignorant and ego-based decisions which lead them in the wrong direction? You bet! However, I don't think the exception proves the rule.

I know we will never agree on this Daniel... but yes. We are all morally corrupt and perverted! We ARE "defective-out-of-the-box." I like people. I really do. I like myself and am proud of who I am and what I have accomplished. I have confidence in my capacity to DO and BE "good", but we all carry the seeds of corruption into everything we do and they can take root and grow without warning. This doesn't mean that we are not cute and lovable and at times noble and courageous. It just means that you can't trust us further than you can throw us. It also means that we are always in need of the Grace of God. Sigh. Once a Calvinist, always a Calvinist.


Another thought comes to mind here. We are such 'herd' creatures, aren't we? The person who gets out in front of the herd is either a genius or a madman according to those being him/her. Creating a structure - like a church or a ministry- which does not fall within the accepted norms - takes a heck of a lot of ego, drive and self-confidence. The truth is, it's easier to fit in with what is already there. But that's thinking inside the box.

Jesus was a maverick. And he wanted us to be like him, didn't he?

Jesus WAS a maverick. AND Jesus wanted US to be Mavericks like him. However, he was ALSO GOD! and did NOT want us to try to be God like him. Hence the need for accountability

[Daniel]

I know we will never agree on this Daniel... but yes. We are all morally corrupt and perverted! We ARE "defective-out-of-the-box." I like people. I really do. I like myself and am proud of who I am and what I have accomplished. I have confidence in my capacity to DO and BE "good", but we all carry the seeds of corruption into everything we do and they can take root and grow without warning. This doesn't mean that we are not cute and lovable and at times noble and courageous. It just means that you can't trust us further than you can throw us. It also means that we are always in need of the Grace of God. Sigh. Once a Calvinist, always a Calvinist.



Seeds of corruption?

This kind of thinking is why I'm can't call myself a Christian anymore.

No. We won't agree on this one. And my saying more about this would be hijacking this thread.

[u-dog]

Seeds of corruption?

This kind of thinking is why I'm can't call myself a Christian anymore.

No. We won't agree on this one. And my saying more about this would be hijacking this thread.

agreeing to disagree :) :love:

[Zerbie]

Yeah, we'll all disagree on this one. I disagree with U-dog, and apparently also with Mr. Calvin Dude, with vehemence. I don't wish to go into it since we all have our foundations and beliefs set up, and it would probably just be disrespectful. But I do wish to go on record with a big NO to the (Calvin?) thing about human supervision. (shudder). :headbang:Ugh. No. All kinds of no.

Okay, dropping the discussion now. . . :p U-dog knows I love him to pieces. :love:

Onward. . . .:D:running:

[BrentRichards]

This implies (sorry -udog) a 'defective-out-of-the-box' view of humanity. Can people make stupid, ignorant and ego-based decisions which lead them in the wrong direction? You bet! However, I don't think the exception proves the rule.

I know we will never agree on this Daniel... but yes. We are all morally corrupt and perverted! We ARE "defective-out-of-the-box." I like people. I really do. I like myself and am proud of who I am and what I have accomplished. I have confidence in my capacity to DO and BE "good", but we all carry the seeds of corruption into everything we do and they can take root and grow without warning. This doesn't mean that we are not cute and lovable and at times noble and courageous. It just means that you can't trust us further than you can throw us. It also means that we are always in need of the Grace of God. Sigh. Once a Calvinist, always a Calvinist.

Maybe I'm just feeling a bit conciliatory (Monty Python "Argument Clinic" reference), but I don't read these things all that differently. I think Daniel's statement about our ability to make stupid, ego-based decisions is not all that far off from a balanced doctrine of human depravity. Daniel would never use that word, and Dave (and I) would never acknowledge that it's merely an "exception," but we're not saying all that different things. Calvin (and his "minions" present here) didn't teach that humans are all bad, or incapable of good in a general sense, simply that we are also capable of (and often inclined to) great evil as well. That's obvious from a skim of any day's front page news.

Point being, I agree with both of you, to a degree (and risk being ousted from the Calvin fan club, again).

[antonyh]

Ha! I'll fight ya for 'em! :smashy:

I've waited my whole life for them to tap me for Pope. When are they gonna figger it out? I'd set the church straight. . . err, well, maybe not ***strai---ght***. . . .:p:lol:

Pope Zerbie, Daniel and Antony

[antonyh]

Sorry... I totally disagree. Human beings are depraved... even a decent "Joe" like you Antony. Jim Jones was a hell of a decent guy who was all about social justice and equality but he ended up sexually abusing his followers and thousands of people ended their lives drinking cyanide laced kool-aid. Who needs someone looking over their shoulder? YOU DO. So do I. So does Daniel even if he doesn't like it very much.

Find a Christian community that feeds you and open yourself to a call to whatever form of ministry God may have in mind. Go back to Seminary by all means. That is worth doing on its own merits regardless of what you end up doing to serve God and the world. Start your own ministry by all means but makes sure there is someone who is paying attention so that when you start to become Jim Jones somebody is empowered to smack you. ("Snap out of it Antony!")

I did graduate from Seminary (got that M.Div. paper...from a Presbyterian Seminary that teaches total depravity). I was accountable to my denomination. When I came out as a gay man and decided that I'd rather find love than celibacy, the accountability kicked in and I got the boot. I got what I wanted...love.

I bring this up to simply say that "accountability" is often an excuse for systemic religious bigotry.

So how do you address a queer boy who has gone through this experience and still has a heart for ministry...but wonders about the oppression of religious accountability and what it would mean for future ministry.

In principle I agree with you. Having mentors in any endeavor would be excellent, but mentor relationships are very different from denominational accountability as it is often expressed.

I often wonder how much of this doctrinal submission and ordination stuff is a social construction to maintain power and control. Jesus chose to work outside of these structures and was crucified for that. Is there an example in that for us? I like to think so.

This is queer outsider perspective. It is one of our gifts...we're thrown out of institutional structures and we think outside of the box. One of the gifts that compensates for oppression.

[Zerbie]

Pope Zerbie, Daniel and Antony

:D

All we need is one more, and we can have a Pope for all 4 cardinal directions. Daniel, the chic Pope of the East, Zerbie the flirtatious Pope of the West, Antony - pick your own epithet and let's call Chicago North -- now, any southerners want to claim the remaining title? :lol:

[antonyh]

:D

All we need is one more, and we can have a Pope for all 4 cardinal directions. Daniel, the chic Pope of the East, Zerbie the flirtatious Pope of the South, Antony - pick your own epithet and let's call Chicago North -- now, any southerners want to claim the remaining title? :lol:

Can you imagine how fun church would be if we presided over the festivities :lol::pray:

[Zerbie]

I did graduate from Seminary (got that M.Div. paper...from a Presbyterian Seminary that teaches total depravity). I was accountable to my denomination. When I came out as a gay man and decided that I'd rather find love than celibacy, the accountability kicked in and I got the boot. I got what I wanted...love.

I bring this up to simply say that "accountability" is often an excuse for systemic religious bigotry.

So how do you address a queer boy who has gone through this experience and still has a heart for ministry...but wonders about the oppression of religious accountability and what it would mean for future ministry.

In principle I agree with you. Having mentors in any endeavor would be excellent, but mentor relationships are very different from denominational accountability as it is often expressed.

I often wonder how much of this doctrinal submission and ordination stuff is a social construction to maintain power and control. Jesus chose to work outside of these structures and was crucified for that. Is there an example in that for us? I like to think so.

This is queer outsider perspective. It is one of our gifts...we're thrown out of institutional structures and we think outside of the box. One of the gifts that compensates for oppression.

I get what you're delving into here. It struck me as central when you first opened this thread.

I don't know what you're doing now, profession-wise. Maybe you can apply your calling to your current career. It is possible that your years of seminary have prepared you, not for ministry in the sense you then expected, but for a spiritual calling outside of denominational structures, in another field of endeavor. What I'm saying is, almost any profession can be a calling or a ministry of sorts - teaching, healing, anything to do with the arts, advocacy or social work. . . . Your training equipped you with certain knowledge and skills, which you might put to use elsewhere than where you thought you would use them.

I have over 700 hours of yoga teacher training and certification but haven't happened to start teaching classes (outside of 2 short summer sessions). But the training I received was very extensive and it absolutely influences everything else I do from teaching the singing lessons to the activism stuff. Likewise, your training can influence your pursuits outside of traditional church ministry.

The question you need to explore for yourself is whether you want to be within that structure or without it. Within is easier on the surface because it has an established path, but there may be reasons why that path may be the wrong one for you. Without is more difficult in that you may find yourself pioneering your own territory, but you will not be as subject to social constraints, which a lot of the time DO have to do with bigotry, prejudice, arbitrary standards, and other peoples' mistakes and problems.

I know you will figure it out if you keep delving. Is there any way you can see yourself ministering outside of the church?

[antonyh]

I get what you're delving into here. It struck me as central when you first opened this thread.

I don't know what you're doing now, profession-wise. Maybe you can apply your calling to your current career. It is possible that your years of seminary have prepared you, not for ministry in the sense you then expected, but for a spiritual calling outside of denominational structures, in another field of endeavor. What I'm saying is, almost any profession can be a calling or a ministry of sorts - teaching, healing, anything to do with the arts, advocacy or social work. . . . Your training equipped you with certain knowledge and skills, which you might put to use elsewhere than where you thought you would use them.

I have over 700 hours of yoga teacher training and certification but haven't happened to start teaching classes (outside of 2 short summer sessions). But the training I received was very extensive and it absolutely influences everything else I do from teaching the singing lessons to the activism stuff. Likewise, your training can influence your pursuits outside of traditional church ministry.

The question you need to explore for yourself is whether you want to be within that structure or without it. Within is easier on the surface because it has an established path, but there may be reasons why that path may be the wrong one for you. Without is more difficult in that you may find yourself pioneering your own territory, but you will not be as subject to social constraints, which a lot of the time DO have to do with bigotry, prejudice, arbitrary standards, and other peoples' mistakes and problems.

I know you will figure it out if you keep delving. Is there any way you can see yourself ministering outside of the church?

My in my current position I am an auditor for a public accounting firm. We check the controls surrounding the technology that runs financial systems in public companies. All part of keeping those financial statements that investors rely on accurate. So in a way I am in the honesty business.

I agree with you that all of our professions are a ministry. It is just that a church position gives you the time and money to really focus on serving people.

I have many ideas for nonprofits and most of them fall outside of the scope of the church. My problem is time and funding. I don't have the time and I have to pay those bills. Hatecrimesbill.org is a current project and has taken many hours of work. I have an idea about starting an HIV prevention project in online chat rooms as well. Most of these ideas are a synthesis of technology and social work.

I always think about Mel White when discussions like this arise. He was not able to be in ordained ministry and look what happened...Soulforce. So there you go :)

[Daniel]

I have many ideas for nonprofits and most of them fall outside of the scope of the church. My problem is time and funding. I don't have the time and I have to pay those bills.

I know what you are going through.

I'm been working at the same place for many years, while preparing a new career as a self-employed person. Suffice it to say, I'm finding the transition challenging. This kind of thing, going from one structure to another, isn't easy. It's bring up all sorts of 'stuff'. But I like to think this is a good thing. My sense is that- it's how one deals with this 'stuff' that matters.

My suggestion is to think about the problem differently. Of course, your concern is time and money. But there is something- I believe- that needs consideration before this.

Goals and a Plan.

You need a concrete goal- something to aim for- and a plan to get there. And by plan- I mean an actual plan. Perhaps a 5 year one, with clear objectives, objectives that start with 'doable' things to begin with ( a career counselor can be a huge help).

It sounds rather simplistic, but I read (I forget where) that those who achieve big things in life not only get organized about such things, they actualize things in bits and pieces. One of those bits is writing things down. That way, one isn't left stuck in one's head- wishing and not doing anything about it.

I think this feeling you have about working with people is the universe telling you that something needs changing.

Creative discontent.

[u-dog]

Maybe I'm just feeling a bit conciliatory (Monty Python "Argument Clinic" reference), but I don't read these things all that differently. I think Daniel's statement about our ability to make stupid, ego-based decisions is not all that far off from a balanced doctrine of human depravity. Daniel would never use that word, and Dave (and I) would never acknowledge that it's merely an "exception," but we're not saying all that different things. Calvin (and his "minions" present here) didn't teach that humans are all bad, or incapable of good in a general sense, simply that we are also capable of (and often inclined to) great evil as well. That's obvious from a skim of any day's front page news.

Point being, I agree with both of you, to a degree (and risk being ousted from the Calvin fan club, again).


Yeah! What he said. :)

[Str8Ally]

If I am totally honest, I still want to be in the ministry. There is not a day that goes by where I don't feel that desire. I honestly don't know where to begin to make this happen and I still wonder if it is a wise decision given the animosity in the Church toward LGBT people. I would also say that to some degree I have acquired a major beef with Christianity which makes it difficult to be a pastor.

You've just answered your own question, friend!

Read the statement in bold again. That is exactly why you should be a pastor! If you feel rejected by the church and unwelcome in the ministry, that means the church needs a fundamental change - which means it needs you to be a part of that change!

We need more pastors who have a beef with Christianity, let me tell ya.