Hello..

[Assured]

JUST MAKING MYSELF KNOWN

I BECAME A BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN 4 YEARS AGO AFTER LIVING AS A LESBIAN FOR ABOUT 10 YEARS...AND I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I WOULD BE SEPERATED FROM GOD ETERNALLY IF I CONTINUED TO WANT TO SPEND MY LIFE WITH A WOMAN..OR INDULGE IN SEXUALITY WITH A WOMAN...

SO I SAT DOWN ONE DAY AND I RATIONALISED WHY IT WAS BETTER FOR ME TO GIVE THIS PASSION TO GO TO DEAL WITH BUT I HAD NO IDEA HOW I WAS SUDDENLY GOING TO DESIRE MEN....SO I FIGURED THAT PERHAPS IT MAY BE THE END OF MY SEX LIFE AND I WAS NOT TOO DAUNTED BY IT

SO...I GAVE IT TO GOD WITH A SMIRK ON MY FACE BECAUSE AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED THIS WAS DOING THE IMPOSSIBLE...ANYWAY AS THE WEEKS AND MONTHS ROLLED ON MY SEXUALITY PALED INTO THE BACKGROUND AND I CERTAINLY FELT A CHANGE AND DID NOT MISS INTIMACY WITH WOMEN AND COULD HONESTLY SAY THAT I WAS NOT BATTLING TO BE STRAIGHT EVEN THOUGH I HAD NO INTERACTION WITH MEN

THEN LAST YEAR ON THE INTERNET...IT ALL CHANGED WHEN SUDDENLY THIS DESIRE CAME BACK WHILST COMMUNICATING WITH ANOTHER CHRISTIAN THAT IS MARRIED WITH CHILDREN AND HAS NEVER LIVED AS A LESBIAN...IT WAS THE MOST SHOCKING.....SCARY....THING THAT HAD EVER HAPPENED TO ME AND I WAS OUT OF CONTROL AND FALLING FOR THIS WOMAN I HAD NEVER MET...

THE FRIENDSHIP HAS GROWN AND GROWN AND SHE HAS BECOME MY BEST FRIEND AND I EVEN WENT AND MET HER THIS YEAR{international flight}....OUR FRIENDSHIP IS NOT BASED ON SEX..WE JUST TOTALLY ADORE EACH OTHER....SHE IS NOT REALLY HAPPY WITH HER HUSBAND BUT SHE HAS KIDS WITH HIM SO THATS THAT...BUT WE BOTH BELIEVE THE SEXUAL DESIRES THAT ARISE ARE NOT WHAT GOD WANTS

I HAVE GOTTEN TO THE STAGE WHERE I AM STARTING TO QUESTION WHERE SUCH A DEEP AND BEAUTIFUL LOVE HAS COME FROM...AND WHY THE DESIRE THAT WAS GONE HAS RETURNED...THIS DESIRE HOWEVER DOES NOT SPREAD TO ANY OTHER PERSON...I DO NOT GENERALLY DESIRE WOMEN...I DONT CLASS MYSELF AS A LESBIAN AND YET I CERTAINLY HAVE LESBIAN FEELINGS TOWARDS MY BEST FRIEND,,,I FEEL SOOOO GUILTY BUT I AM WONDERING HOW SHE MANAGES TO FEEL THE SAME WAY ALSO....IN FACT IT IS MORE OFTEN HER THAT WILL INITIATE INTIMACY

I AM TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH HER AND I BELIEVE SHE IS ALSO WITH ME BUT MOST OF THE TIME WE JUST CHAT AS NORMAL BUT THERE IS AN AWFUL LOT OF LOVE BETWEEN US... I DONT FEEL COMFORTABLE DEALING WITH IT IN A CHURCH SETTING AND PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH CHRISTIANITY ARE ALSO NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND MY CONCERN

I JUST NEED TO CONNECT WITH LIKE MINDED PEOPLE....DOES ANYONE UNDERSTAND ....CAN ANYONE SHED ANY LIGHT....?

I HAVE MUCH TO SAY BUT THIS WILL DO FOR NOW....IF YOU THINK I SHOULD BE ON ANOTHER WEBSITE PLEASE LET ME KNOW

THANKS PEEPS!

[Zerbie]

Hello, welcome.

What an ordeal. You're not at all alone in dealing with these questions. Neither are you the only person attracted to others of their own sex who is afraid that having such a relationship could separate them from God. As I see it, there is no way God will ever let someone who desires Him be abandoned, no matter what they do, even if they do something terrible. He forgives.:dove: Now, falling in love with someone is not at all a terrible thing! What makes it complicated is that neither of you seems comfortable, philosophically, with the nature of the relationship, and she is married to someone else. These are 3 separate issues all rolled into one situation, making it very complicated for you.

1. whether God loves people in same sex relationships and you can maintain your spiritual connection with Him, 2. whether one or both of you are uncomfortable with your own feelings, 3. the fact that one of you is commited to someone else.

My heart goes out to you, having to deal with all this. Remember that God's love is unconditional - that means He loves us no matter what we think, feel, or do. In fact, he knows what we're going to think and feel and do before we know. He knew who we were when He made us. God loves you no matter who you are, or what you do, and nothing will ever change that. You will probably meet U-dog soon, and he likes to say, remember that God will love you even if you guess wrong about whether or not it's okay to have homosexual relationships.

It's been my experience that sexuality, especially in women, can be very very fluid. We are even more likely than men to base our romantic attractions on internals - who the person is, what s/he is like inside - than on physical traits including gender. It really is okay to have feelings for other women. Whether or not you are comfortable acting on them is a different matter that is only for you to determine. But your feelings are okay. They may change with time, and that's okay too, it's even normal. :)

Spend some more time reading this website. I think there's a video sermon somewhere on here called "How can I be sure God loves me too," and I strongly recommend you listen to the sermon. Poke around some more. Keep asking questions. You will find a lot of people here who have been where you are, or someplace similar, who care enough to hold your hand as you face these questions again. I know how scary they can be. Most everyone posting here knows how scary it can be. We won't leave you alone.

If I might make a request: please try not to type your whole message in ALL CAPITOL LETTERS LIKE THIS, because it's overwhelming and hard to read. Thanks. ;)

Anyway, you certainly found the right place. I wish you the best.

:pray:

[paul]

Hello Dearheart.

Sigh. Well, you've come to the right place. You'll find quite a variety of people here who understand, and many who can relate. There's no quick or easy answer to your situation. You know that, of course.

I'm a gay man married to a straight woman for 30 years. As a Christian, that's the only option I saw available 30 years ago. I love this woman, but hey, I'm gay. Neat. About 3 years ago I started developing a friendship with my brother in law (wifes sisters husband). It was a 'godly' friendship, i.e., we talked about god, both being conservative Christians. After awhile, I opened up to him about my ssa, and heck if he didn't open up to me about his. uh oh. I have a much more sordid and experienced background than he. Part of my issues of dealing with my ssa were to get physical fixes till Jesus changed me or helped me learn how to resist (obviously leaving out a lot here so I can get to the point). Well, I started having romantic feelings for this guy. I had been accustomed to cutting those emotions off all my life and limiting things to the physical, but it didn't happen that way with him. I told him of my struggle with my feelings. Weird thing is, he came on to me twice and I was able to draw a line and we didn't have sex. Partly I was afraid he couldn't deal with it and guilt would have him telling, partly I cared about him and didn't want to take advantage as long as he was conflicted. Finally I confronted him because he kept giving me mixed signals. He'd come on, then 'repent.' So, told him he needed to be honest, either he wanted a guy or he didn't. Well, that made him angry. He went to his wife and told her we had had an affair. It's been a real mess. From everyones perspective (our wives, him, my kids) we had an affair. Except for me, I didn't quite see it that way. It doesn't matter, everyone was devastated. In retrospect, I see my own selfishness. My own opinion, if there's a threat of breaking vows (in my case it was on two sides, mine and his)your in a situation where I think it's best to resolve the one relationship before going to far with the other. That means her bringing her husband into the loop vs. secret liasons and lies. My experience is you will lose your dignity if you let go there and hurt many people in the process. There are many ways this could go. Some married people adjust to the mixed orientation and find different ways of dealing with it, some separate.

As for the love you feel for this woman? I see it as a wonderful thing, but I don't think love would exclude consideration for her husband and kids. My opinion is that calling your love for this woman "sinful" is what has caused the real problem, which needs to be dealt with first before that love can have correct expression. Just my thoughts. There are plenty here who can speak to this with you assured.
best wishes
paul

[tdogg]

I agree Assured, you should work on yourself before involving other people. It wouldn't just be you and her, it would be her family as well, and a myriad of others. When you are working on 'you' just remember that love is a blessing from God, so if we feel love how can it be 'wrong'. If God decides to bless us with attraction or even love with a person of the same sex, who are we to question it? Love is not evil or hurtful or wrong or sinful. Love is everything wonderful.

We are all in the midst of our life journeys, some are a little farther along than others. At the core is the learned ability to accept ourself and love ourself, just as we are. It's a hard lesson not easily learned in a short time. Good luck on your journey. Welcome to the Soulforce forums! There is so much to read and ponder and learn here. Take a wide look around and take advantage of many discussions we've had. Glad you are here! :love:

Tdogg

[wmanion]

Hi Assured,
I do not want to really add anything to what has all ready been said. I just want to say welcome to Soulforce. Please stick around and interact. There as so many wonderful and caring people here, some with same sex attractions, some with not. We come from all different aspects of faith. You will be safe here and loved. You will learn many things here and so many healings can take place in your life. Soulforce has all ready helped me in so many ways and I only joined a little over a month ago.

Hugz,
Bill

[u-dog]

Hi Assured, I'm U-dog.

I'm going to say some things you probably aren't going to want to hear. Please know that I'm not being mean or judgmental.

I don't think that you are being honest... with yourself, with your friend or with God. First let me say that I don't think that there is anything wrong with your feelings for women in general or for your friend in particular and I don't think that God disapproves of your desire for other women.

But here is what I see:

1) You obviously still are attracted to women because you are attracted to this PARTICULAR woman. To say that you are not is self-deception. I'm not saying that you don't believe it to be true. I'm sure that you WANT it to be true very much ... but its just that it ISN't true. God doesn't want you to pretend to be what you are not, dear one, He wants you to be truly and honestly yourself. It is better to be an active, self-affirming Lesbian in the arms of God than to be a repressed celibate Lesbian and be alienated from God. You cannot come into the presence of God wearing a mask... it doesn't work. Believe me, I've tried for about 38 years.. it doesn't work.

2) what you are feeling for your friend is not just "very close friendship". You are in love with her and if you are describing her behavior accurately... she is in love with you. In and of itself there is nothing wrong with this, but she is in a covenantal relationship with another person. He is a real person and doesn't deserve to be hurt or deceived. She is in a life-long covenantal relationship with two children. They certainly do not deserve to be hurt. Your relationship with your friend (his wife and their mother) -- EVEN IF YOU NEVER HAVE SEX -- encourages her to give you things that rightly belong to her husband and children. This is NOT right and DOES NOT please God. It is a form of adultery even if you don't go to bed together and EVEN if you feel guilty about it. This has nothing to do with your sexual orientation or hers. It has everything to do with her commitments and the respect you have for those commitments. She needs to deal with her relationship with her husband with all of its deficits on its own merits before anything can happen between the two of you.

Your self-deception is going to hurt you. Its going to hurt her and her family, its going to hurt your relationship with God. You are a Lesbian. You are designed to love Women. If you lie to yourself about this you are going to get hurt and so are other people. this is not what God wants.

Embrace your own identity and orientation. Find a person to love who is available to you emotionally and sexually and love her ... allow yourself to be loved by her. Love her to the Glory of God. God will rejoice in this.

PLEASE DON'T FEEL GUILTY!! It does no one any good. Just wake up and do the right thing. I'm sorry that my words are hard. I don't mean to hurt you.

Dave (U-dog)

[Assured]

Thankyou for responding Zerbie...even though i have told people about my issue especially last year when it first started...i am finding that now it's becoming harder to actually admit to Christians that i have this continuing issue.
I feel comfotable about the intimacy at the time and then varying degrees of guilt after...sometimes very little guilt as i got to realise that this is obviously an issue that i have to address as it's not going away. I feel as if i am now committing presumptious sin even though the intimacy online has only happened twice this year but i did go and meet her this year and actually stayed in her family home and we were quite good considering that her husband is away 5 nights out of 7....she is normally the one that starts any intimacy and i am too weak too in love with her to stop it....but i guess in the future now i know how we operate in the flesh{as opposed to online] i will be able to have more control...i have often felt a little manipulated and she has also admitted many times that it was her fault cos she started it. I have always been passive in that way and i remain the same...but when my buttons are pushed the desire just takes over..[WOW..THIS IS QUITE DETAILED CONSIDERING I DONT KNOW YOU GUYS} but you know..i dont care...cause i need to do this!!

[Assured]

Hi Paul

I had already read your story before i did my first post. Her immediate family have always known about me cos we chat online everyday and her kids knew me on cam before i met her...the husband had seen me too once or twice..The 2 of us have become best friends..and the family just see it as that but 2 nights before i flew out one of her friends that she had confided my past in told the husband so i think he was more on the alert when i first arrived.but that is to be expected as the man of the house and i guess it was good for me and my friend. The situation is worst for her cause she cannot talk to anyone about it..they will not understand in her Christian community or family...she expresses love to me in a very natural way but i did notice the difference when i was actually with her because this is really a new depth of relationship for her...{but she did have a mini fling b4 she knew me apparently} she is not in denial of her feelings for me and i have even told her that i am not good for her but she does not see that at all. I have said things to give her the opportunity to step away but she never takes it[not that i really want to} She has never felt this loved before and actually meeting me was very overwhelming for the 2 of us and when i returned home she distanced herself a while because she got scared {SHE ONLY TOLD ME THIS 2 WEEKS AGO} she was also going thru moving house which caused alot of stress. When she distanced herself she still communicated with me we just did not chat...now she is relating to me as normal. She was desperate for me to actually go and meet her and spend time with her and we both felt it would validate our friendship which online seemed SO GREAT! Neither of us were disappointed but i did have my own personal issues with her which i realise are unfounded and i have no right to expect any of her attention because she has her hands full with her family....being around her made me wake up to the reality of the fact that i really wanted more attention than she could give and i was angry with myself for being like this.

My intense love for her upsets me at times and i just want it to diminish just a little..just enough to make it a normal platonic friendship 100% of the time instead of 98% of the time..that 2% makes an ENORMOUS difference. I realise i am just waffling on in these posts right now my mind is a little messy i guess..please forgive my ramblings

Thankyou

[Assured]

Hi Bill
Thanks for your input..i am glad that you have found soulforce to be of benefit to you so quickly

[Assured]

Hello Dave

Ok...i do not see that i am in denial...i guess because i am not attracted to any other woman...i would not come on here and lie or decieve myself...what would be the point?
I don't desire to spend my life with a woman as i used to ..but right now i am in love wth this woman..i am NOT in denial about that. I agree that i am in an adulteress situation...why do you think it is bothering me so much...i have often seen how much better it would be to be involved with a christian woman that is single...i completely agree with you that God is not happy about this...how do i deal with it....will my feeling s for her resolve themselves soon and will we be able to have a normal platonic friendship 100% of the time? You have given me food for thought but you need to know that i am being as true to myself as i know how....i mean....this is the place where i would be totally honest Dave...i dont know you guys and you guys understand...so why would i come on here and lie. Tell me i am on a learning curve but dont call me a liar...God knows my heart and God kknows whether or not i think i am a lesbian and i have always felt that if my friend is out of the loop i would not have a sexuality problem. If i am wrong Dave..time will tell. I have no problem with your candor..as long as you have no problem with mine....i need enlightenment from people such as yourself...but mainly from God. As i said in my first post i have alot of challenging things to say but i am just acquainting myself with you guys first. Last year when this all kicked off i DID wonder if i actually WAS a lesbian and that maybe what i am hearing in church is wrong....but Dave i just can't match my love for this woman {even if she was unmarried} with Romans 1:26...and the Scripture about the effeminate not being a part of the Kingdom of God. THIS is where i need help....i just feel like i am a FAKE Christian...and that i was not really saved in 2003 at all...but saying that denies The work of The Holy Spirit in my life...so WHAT DID happen to me in 2003 then....Dave..you dont have to walk on eggshells with me in future posts either...your input is as valid as the rest.

Thankyou

[paul]

Hi Assured,

Sorry I was repetitious. I'm usually guilty of not saying enough and I'm trying to break the habit :) . I wanted to share a situation with many similarities that went really wrong so you wouldn't feel alone and pointed at. The more you write of your situation, the more similarities I see. Ultimately, there were several people involved in our loop but we only have control over one of those people, our self. From what you say, you have already been intimate, you are already in an adulterous situation. While she is the one initiates intimacy, you find you are to "weak" to resist. Trying to "diminish" your feelings back to "platonic friendship" seems like trying to put the proverbial cat back into the bag. My opinion is you are reversing things. There's nothing wrong with your feelings, it's what you are doing with those feelings that have the potential to hurt people. But, even if you managed those feelings in your self, you cannot manage the feelings in the woman you care about. If she was not of a like mind and ability (i.e., she wants more than a platonic friend), your presence in her life will be a tease.

You have Dave and others to give you a Christian approach, I couldn't do it. As you have probably read, I deconverted. After 35 years of trying to reconcile my faith with my sexuality, honesty in my life meant accepting my ssa. It's kind of funny. Now that I accept that and reject the particular God who disapproved, I am able to do the "Christian" thing and be faithful and honest with my wife.

I will not suggest what you should or should not do, I am just giving you input from my own experience. I understand and respect that you alone can live your life. My opinion is that you are playing with fire, and you have already crossed the line of what I would deem "moral." I will say again that I don't think your problem is your feelings or potential feelings for other women (i.e., being lesbian). I think your problems arise because you suppress those feelings, but you cannot change them, so they come out in other ways. You thought you were fine, then bam, you met someone who brought you out of dormancy. I think it is a mistake to try and diminish intense love, but I guess you do that to fit your beliefs. I do think it is appropriate to acknowledge and direct that love in a way that will not hurt others. I would have a hard time calling it "love" otherwise.

[u-dog]

Hello Dave

Ok...i do not see that i am in denial...i guess because i am not attracted to any other woman...i would not come on here and lie or deceive myself...what would be the point?
I don't desire to spend my life with a woman as i used to ..but right now i am in love with this woman..i am NOT in denial about that. I agree that i am in an adulteress situation...why do you think it is bothering me so much...i have often seen how much better it would be to be involved with a christian woman that is single...i completely agree with you that God is not happy about this...how do i deal with it....will my feeling s for her resolve themselves soon and will we be able to have a normal platonic friendship 100% of the time? You have given me food for thought but you need to know that i am being as true to myself as i know how....i mean....this is the place where i would be totally honest Dave...i don't know you guys and you guys understand...so why would i come on here and lie. Tell me i am on a learning curve but dont call me a liar...God knows my heart and God kknows whether or not i think i am a lesbian and i have always felt that if my friend is out of the loop i would not have a sexuality problem. If i am wrong Dave..time will tell. I have no problem with your candor..as long as you have no problem with mine....i need enlightenment from people such as yourself...but mainly from God. As i said in my first post i have alot of challenging things to say but i am just acquainting myself with you guys first. Last year when this all kicked off i DID wonder if i actually WAS a lesbian and that maybe what i am hearing in church is wrong....but Dave i just can't match my love for this woman {even if she was unmarried} with Romans 1:26...and the Scripture about the effeminate not being a part of the Kingdom of God. THIS is where i need help....i just feel like i am a FAKE Christian...and that i was not really saved in 2003 at all...but saying that denies The work of The Holy Spirit in my life...so WHAT DID happen to me in 2003 then....Dave..you dont have to walk on eggshells with me in future posts either...your input is as valid as the rest.

Thankyou


Assured,

THING ONE:

I believe that YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN !! and as a Christian myself I totally honor that and the the fact that you desire to please God. Being a Christian means that you yielded yourself to the God who was revealed in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. It means, among other things, that you have LET GO OF YOUR OWN MORAL RIGHTEOUSNESS and are now trusting Christ's righteousness for your eternal salvation and your eternal life with God. It means that you realize that no matter who you sleep with or who you WANT to sleep with God loves you. God loves you because God has the sovereign power to love whomever he chooses no matter who they love or what they have done. You can never again "earn" your salvation by being a good little girl and you can no longer "earn" your destruction by being a naughty little girl. Your fate is now in the hands of the one who died on the cross for you.

IF YOU BELIEVE THIS YOU ARE A "REAL" CHRISTIAN. If, on the other hand, you believe that your eternal fate is still somehow in your own hands... then you are a "fake" Christian. An awful lot of "born again" fundamentalist Christians are "fake" Christians. They want a relationship with Jesus Christ but only if they can "earn" it by being good little girls and boys. Well... they can't. (see Paul? I am a "real" Calvinist!)

Accept the gift of life from Jesus and then live your life as a giant, fleshandblood "thank you note" to him. Make your decisions, live, love, and die to the Glory of God knowing that you are loved and accepted whether you make mistakes or not.

THING TWO:

I do not think that you are a "liar" except insofar as all of us are liars. What I said was that you are deceiving yourself. You believe that you are telling yourself the truth but, in fact, you are not. You are protecting yourself from seeing a truth because it is too dangerous or uncomfortable for you to see it. This is a universal human trait. You do it. I do it. Zerbie does it. Even Daniel does it (;)). I believe that you are in denial about your sexuality. I could be wrong about that. Perhaps I spoke too soon and spoke out of turn. Thats for you to decide. My job as your brother in Christ is to tell you what I see. I see a Christian Lesbian who desperately doesn't want to be a Lesbian and has convinced herself that she is not by MOSTLY repressing her sexual desire. I see a Lesbian whose desire is leaking out around the edges of her denial and manifesting itself in a "friendship" with a married woman with children. This "leaking" is dangerous to your friend, her husband, her children, and you. The idea that this relationship will somehow resolve into a "platonic" friendship is not realistic. You are playing with fire and it is the children who will burn. I don't know how else to say that.

THING THREE:

The Bible. The Bible says almost nothing about loving, committed homosexual relationships. (actually... I think it says nothing, but I'm leaving the door open a crack). Have you read Dr. White's pamphlet "WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY" ? It can be accessed online here on this site somewhere. Please read it if you have not.

With regard to Romans 1 particularly: read the WHOLE CHAPTER of Romans 1 and then CONTINUE reading into Chapter two (remember, the chapters and verses were added later, they are not part of the original text) read up to about 2:10 or so. Listen to Paul's WHOLE ARGUMENT and ask yourself who is Paul addressing? and what is he trying to convince them of? In other words, what is Paul's point? If God has a "point" in this passage for 21st century Christians then it will have SOME relationship to the point Paul was trying to make to 1st century Roman Christians. Right?
Here is his outline:

1. Oh! look at those yucky Gentiles aren't they awful.
2. they do all kind of disgusting, immoral things including..."something to do with some kind of sexual activity between people of the same sex but we in the 21st century don't know exactly WHAT"
3. They do these disgusting immoral things because God has given them over to them because they are committing idolatry. (in other words, these things they are doing are the result of their idolatry... a consequence of it)

OK to sum up. Gentiles are idolaters, they worship something other than the true God and as a result they are morally corrupt and disgusting. Moral corruption isn't the real problem - its the symptom. the real problem is a SPIRITUAL CORRUPTION called idolatry. With me so far? OK

4. In chapter 2 Paul turns on the Jewish Christians who are feeling "OH SO PRETTY" because they don't have sex with other girls or other boys and accuses them: "YOU JEWISH CHRISTIANS ARE DOING THE SAME DAMN THING!!! (does Paul mean that the Jewish Christians are having same sex relationships on the "down low"? no! ) He is accusing them of IDOLATRY.

5. the sin of the Jewish Christians is that they are committing an idolatry of the Law. they are putting the Jewish Law and ritual practice IN THE PLACE OF GOD and in the place of Christ.

6. Ok Jewish Christians... STOP IT! ITS DISGUSTING! IT PISSES GOD RIGHT OFF!

Do you see what Paul is doing? he uses the example of the yucky gentiles of Rome to get the Jewish Christians of the Roman church all in an uproar. "Oh aren't those Gentiles bad!" then he turns the tables so that they HAVE to see that they are JUST AS BAD. Its a trap he sets to catch hypocrites.

NOW, who needs to read Romans 1 and 2 and repent? GLBT people who are living in covenanted relationship with one another? or Neo-pharisee fundamentalist Christians who put a distortion of the Biblical text up as a stumbling block to REAL GLBT Christians like you and me?

The fundamentalists have made an idol out of the Bible and they put it in the place of God and Jesus EVERY DAY. It is they who stand accused in Romans 1 and 2 but they are blind to that reality. It is God who saves us... NOT THE BIBLE. It is Jesus Christ, the eternal Word of God who was present at Creation and who died for our sins and who destroyed death that we might live WHO IS THE WORD OF GOD ... NOT THE BIBLE!!

Amen?

People who hate in the name of Jesus and condemn GLBT people like us for being who we were created to be ARE NOT THE TRUE CHURCH. The are NOT THE BODY OF CHRIST. THEY ARE NOT "REAL CHRISTIANS".

We are.

I love you sister! I really do, and so does God... and we love you JUST THE WAY YOU ARE... SINS AND ALL.

[Assured]

Hmmm...

sighs...
YUP! YUP!! and YUP!!

I THINK I JUST FOUND A FRIEND IN YOU DAVE...

YOU HAVE HELPED ME IN 2 DAYS UNDERSTAND MY SEXUALITY MORE AND NOW I HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW I AM GOING TO ADDRESS OR REPRESENT MY LOVE....WHAT YOU GUYS...{Paul too} ARE SAYING IS THAT...IT'S MY BEHAVIOUR AS A RESULT OF MY LOVE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AND NOT THE LOVE ITSELF RIGHT?

YOU KNOW SOMETHING...THE LAST 2 NIGHTS SINCE I JOINED SOULFORCE I HAVE HAD DREAMS RELATED TO MY DILEMA..IT'S AS IF SOMETHING HAS BEEN IGNITED INSIDE AND GOD IS DEALING WITH ME THROUGH MY DREAMS BUT I CANT QUITE DECIPHER WHAT HE IS SAYING BUT I KNOW SOMETHING IS CERTAINLY OCCURING CONNECTED TO MY SEXUALITY. DAVE....I HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY REGARDING THE EXPOSITION OF THE WORD OF GOD....I ACTUALLY EXITED A CULT 2 YEARS AGO BY DOING A SIMILAR THING TO WHAT I AM DOING NOW...WOULD LOVE TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT BUT HERE IS OBVIOUSLY NOT THE PLACE....I REALISD THAT THIS PARTICULAR DENOMINATION ARE PROOF TEXTING TO SUIT THE DOCTRINES THAT THEIR SO CALLED 'MESSENGER FOR THE CHURCH' HAD ENDORSED...I WAS RAISED IN THIS CULT WITHOUT REALISING IT WAS ONE UNTIL 2005...JUST 2 YEARS AFTER I WAS BORN AGAIN AND BAPTISED IN TO THAT CHURCH...MY DISCOVERY OF THE WORD OF GOD..GALATIANS IN PARTICULAR OPENED UP A WHOLE CAN OF WORMS AND THE MORE I READ THE EPISTLES.THE MORE THE WORMS SPEWED OUT...sorry...i just realised i was using capitals...i always use capitals...please 4give me....but i dont want to delete everythin and start again so i will proceed small from here on in.

Yes i certainly feel a tuggin and the tuggging i am feeling is scary...it's the tug to accept that i am a lesbian...FLIP!!! this is gonna be SOOOOO hard....i am definitely not in acceptance of that but i am trying to be open to it...i REALLY NEED TO HEAR VERY CLEARLY FROM GOD in this one...i am scared....this is WAY beyond where i ever thought i would be....this water is ICY COLD....and i have only let the tips of my feet touch it..{the last 2 days} I did read an article yesterday aboout what the Bible DOES NOT say about sexuality...and i passed the link to my friend who is a Christian and comfortably homosexual...met him in the denomination i left...picked him out like a flying pig and told him that something about him was recognisable{very brave thing to do to a stranger} we have been friends ever since but of course i have been tellin him how i have been free from this lesbian business since i gave it to God and that his day will come bla bla...but when i fell last year i was not ashamed to tell him cos i felt it would not be right to not also share this part of my journey with him...last evening i told him that i am re-assessing my sexuality...and that i think i am ready to attend a conference with people of the same...As i sit here and type i feel as if it's not really me saying these things...i certainly am in a state of cognitive dissonance understandibly..i just dont know how i am going to explain this one to those i know...but if i hear from God i will have the boldness in the face of any questions that may arise in the future..but this is really gonna be a tuffy....i am starting to feel the weight of it. Dave i do understand that i have no righteousness of my own and that anything i do is filthy rags anyway...leaving that church helped me to understand the Gospel more clearly and even gettin into this situation has helped me to understand that being a Christian does not free you from sin...it just shows you up for the human being that you are and makes you realise that without Christ....

I feel myself writin an epic again so i am going to stop as i am gettin emotional and will get back to you later.

Love From
Overwhelmed and Scared and Slightly Excited

[u-dog]

Hmmm...

sighs...
YUP! YUP!! and YUP!!

I THINK I JUST FOUND A FRIEND IN YOU DAVE...

YOU HAVE HELPED ME IN 2 DAYS UNDERSTAND MY SEXUALITY MORE AND NOW I HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW I AM GOING TO ADDRESS OR REPRESENT MY LOVE....WHAT YOU GUYS...{Paul too} ARE SAYING IS THAT...IT'S MY BEHAVIOUR AS A RESULT OF MY LOVE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AND NOT THE LOVE ITSELF RIGHT?

Bingo Sweet Thing!! :love: Love like Jesus loved. What you feel and need and want is important and valuable and must be honored. But the effects of your behavior on the lives of others and the needs that others have must always be weighed as well. Jesus obviously loved life and lived LARGE, but when all was said and done he was willing to put that aside for the needs of the rest of us. Remember the "J.O.Y." formula? Jesus, Others, Yourself. You can't have joy without considering all three componants.

YOU KNOW SOMETHING...THE LAST 2 NIGHTS SINCE I JOINED SOULFORCE I HAVE HAD DREAMS RELATED TO MY DILEMA..IT'S AS IF SOMETHING HAS BEEN IGNITED INSIDE AND GOD IS DEALING WITH ME THROUGH MY DREAMS BUT I CANT QUITE DECIPHER WHAT HE IS SAYING BUT I KNOW SOMETHING IS CERTAINLY OCCURING CONNECTED TO MY SEXUALITY.

Dreams can be a very rich source of insight into our situation. Our brains use dreams to tell us about ourselves and GOD uses our dreams to tell us about ourselves. Both things are happening. The gay Christian therapist who my wife and I are working with taught me this method for exploring what a dream is saying to me. When I have what I call a "BIG DREAM" or a "capital "D" Dream" He has me choose three elements from the dream and to retell the dream from the perspective of each element. For instance I had a dream that involved an android, an attractive teenage boy, and me on a staircase. he had me tell the dream from the perspective of the android (what he saw, what he felt, what he wanted), the boy, AND the staircase. and to explore what God might be sharing with me from each perspective.

DAVE....I HAVE SO MUCH TO SAY REGARDING THE EXPOSITION OF THE WORD OF GOD....I ACTUALLY EXITED A CULT 2 YEARS AGO BY DOING A SIMILAR THING TO WHAT I AM DOING NOW...WOULD LOVE TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT BUT HERE IS OBVIOUSLY NOT THE PLACE....


You can PM me anytime you want, but remember that when you do that you deny yourself the accumulated wisdom of the others here. Zerbie, Daniel, Andy, Austin, Jenn, Brent, and the others all have slightly different points of view and we have a way of catching each others mistakes and filling in each others "blind spots" So whatever is most helpful to you.


GALATIANS IN PARTICULAR OPENED UP A WHOLE CAN OF WORMS AND THE MORE I READ THE EPISTLES.THE MORE THE WORMS SPEWED OUT

I LOVE GALATIANS !! If ever there were affirming words in Scripture for GLBT Christians... its in Galatians. "In Christ there is no longer male and female, Jew or Gentile, Slave or free" and we hear "straight or gay" behind those words.

Yes i certainly feel a tuggin and the tuggging i am feeling is scary...it's the tug to accept that i am a lesbian...FLIP!!! this is gonna be SOOOOO hard....i am definitely not in acceptance of that but i am trying to be open to it...i REALLY NEED TO HEAR VERY CLEARLY FROM GOD in this one...i am scared....this is WAY beyond where i ever thought i would be....this water is ICY COLD....and i have only let the tips of my feet touch it..

This is where Zerbie's response will be helpful! Go slow! You don't need to decide all of this in the next 20 minutes. Sit and bask in the light and warmth of God's love for awhile and let the truth sink in DEEP before you procede: "YOUR WELL-BEING FOR ETERNITY IS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOD WHO MADE YOU AND LOVES YOU AND GAVE HIS LIFE FOR YOU." What you decide to do with your sexual and emotional orientation is just a gift you are going to give to God in gratitude for what GOD has already done for you. If you guess wrong and give God something that God doesn't want it won't (can't) make God hate you any more than you "hate" your friend when she gives you a REALLY ugly blouse for Christmas. You just say "OK... she doesn't really understand what I like... but I still love her and I know that what she gave me came out of her love for me" Am I right?

So in other words... RELAX !!! Do some reading (Have you read "stranger at the Gate" by Mel White yet? If not, do so. He recounts how he struggled to accept who he is and to understand that God loves him the way he is. You can order it through Amazon.com or any bookstore can order it for you. It is a life-changing book. Everyone here has read it.

Also, read other threads on this forum. there is lots of stuff about homosexuality in the Bible here. Watch some of the videos. Especially, "HOW CAN I BE SURE GOD LOVES ME"

Andylittle is a participant in the forums and is a GREAT resource for understanding what the bible does and doesn't say about homosexuality. He is careful Bible scholar who is skillful with Hebrew and Greek. He's my "goto guy" on all things Biblical.

"Is the Homosexual my neighbor" by Virginia Ramey-Mollencott is a very quick read... written for laypeople ... about the main Bible passages that are used to "Clobber" GLBT people. Its almost 30 years old now but still in print and available.

"The Children Are Free" by Jeff Miner and.... (can't remember the co-author )is a good book also (written by my pastor!) You can get that from Amazon as well.

Love From
Overwhelmed and Scared and Slightly Excited

:lol::lol: Anybody who isn't overwhelmed, scared, and excited about life in general ISN'T PAYING ATTENTION !!! :lol::lol: Join the club !!!


I'm praying for you in this process as are your other friends here.

PS. How old are you BTW? if you don't mind my asking, of course!

[andrewlittle]

I can't add much to this right at the moment.

I will say, "Blessings to you, Assured. Know that God loves you deeply, and wants you, above all else, to be authentic and appreciative of the way God made you - in the image of God."

Blessings to you - you, you, u-dog, you - you are one of the most loving and courageous people I have met here (and there are a lot of them).

You have realized, Assured, that this man has a heart that is wide open, and a faith that will speak honestly to you. He does love you - not as much as God does, but almost.

[Assured]

37 years old Mr..

Why do you ask.......what bout you?

[u-dog]

I'm 50 . I didn't want to treat you as older/younger than you are. Communicating by keyboard has certain drawback!

[rainbow7]

Yes i certainly feel a tuggin and the tuggging i am feeling is scary...it's the tug to accept that i am a lesbian...FLIP!!! this is gonna be SOOOOO hard....i am definitely not in acceptance of that but i am trying to be open to it...i REALLY NEED TO HEAR VERY CLEARLY FROM GOD in this one...i am scared....

Hi Assured,

you have gotten some good input in response to the risk that you took to reach out and share your story. This is a community full of wisdom .....not only of individuals who have each gained wisdom through their particular life experiences, but a collective wisdom that comes from being in community and sharing authentically. Even though not everyone here identifies as a Christian, everyone who stays in the community is grounded in love, and tries to treat each other with the respect that is consistent with the Gospel's call. So when you say you REALLY need to hear from God in order to move forward in your struggle, I wonder if you might see the fact of your being led here as just that: one way for God to respond to you. No one here has all the answers for you, but their faithfulness and compassion can help you find the answers for yourself.

I'm glad you're here....keep listening to your dreams! Do you write them down? Many people find keeping them in a journal or drawing them is helpful.

Polly

[Zerbie]

Welcome back. :love::) I'm so glad you came back - I know how terrifying these kinds of questions are. You are so brave to face this.:award:



NOW I HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW I AM GOING TO ADDRESS OR REPRESENT MY LOVE....WHAT YOU GUYS...{Paul too} ARE SAYING IS THAT...IT'S MY BEHAVIOUR AS A RESULT OF MY LOVE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AND NOT THE LOVE ITSELF RIGHT?

Double BINGO! ;)

YOU KNOW SOMETHING...THE LAST 2 NIGHTS SINCE I JOINED SOULFORCE I HAVE HAD DREAMS RELATED TO MY DILEMA..IT'S AS IF SOMETHING HAS BEEN IGNITED INSIDE AND GOD IS DEALING WITH ME THROUGH MY DREAMS BUT I CANT QUITE DECIPHER WHAT HE IS SAYING BUT I KNOW SOMETHING IS CERTAINLY OCCURING CONNECTED TO MY SEXUALITY.

That's your mind going to work on the problem for you from all angles. I've had fear dreams, set-back dreams, hope dreams, and Guidance dreams. When those Guidance dreams come, I listen to 'em. They are like internal angels come to rescue us from pain. If you feel a strong sense of Guidance from a dream, one that leads you to acceptance and peace, follow it.


Yes i certainly feel a tuggin and the tuggging i am feeling is scary...it's the tug to accept that i am a lesbian...FLIP!!! this is gonna be SOOOOO hard....i am definitely not in acceptance of that but i am trying to be open to it...i REALLY NEED TO HEAR VERY CLEARLY FROM GOD in this one...i am scared....this is WAY beyond where i ever thought i would be....this water is ICY COLD....and i have only let the tips of my feet touch it..{the last 2 days}

Yes! Oh yes! I remember that moment in my life. It hit me at 9:45 a.m. February 15th 1995. Working through it took a long time - but the clear sense that Relief! lay before me was palpable. While I had always had gay friends and was confident God loved them, it was a scary thing to think that maybe the 'queer' stuff might apply to me too. Once I faced down those questions, they lost the ability to frighten me.

Take your time. Meet each question one at a time with focus. Look it in the eyes and see what happens.

When you are quiet, at rest and contemplative: perhaps very early in the morning or late in the evening at your usual prayer time, take whatever is the scariest, most pressing question, and hold it up to God. Release it to the spirit and surrender your hope for an outcome. Surrender hope that God will either deliver you from your sexuality or assure you to accept it. Let go of the outcome. Just be, just concentrate on giving yourself to God. No outcomes. Give your question and your feelings about your question to God. Do this every day.



Love From
Overwhelmed and Scared and Slightly Excited

I'm so proud of you. So many people never face it. You are one of the brave few. Be kind to yourself and take it slow & easy. If you keep at it, things will get better. Nothing else can happen. :)

[Assured]

I hear you loud and clear Rainbow....this decision to connect with such a website was not really pre-planned it has just evolved and yes i see some providential leading taking place. I had never even heard of Soulforce..i think i just tapped some appropriate words into google and 'here i am'. Thankyou for you input...i will attempt to remember to keep pen and paper where i lay my head

[Assured]

MR LITTLE

i hope to get down to some grass roots with you at some stage. It does appear that i am only now getting in touch with who i really am...will the 'AM' change in time or will the 'AM remain....{watch this space}

[Assured]

ZERBIE

Your words are very soothing to my soul when i read them...you also seem pleasantly surprised that i did not do a 'runner'.......{hehehehe}Your encouragement is an extra balm on top of all the help i have recieved so far...especially when i read that the place i am in has been trodden before. My set aside prayer life has not been in tact for a very long time but my walk and communicate with God is always there. I used to do the regular set aside prayer as i was taught and i found it to be too religious alongside other things i was expected to do..so i broke my cycle. I am very disappointed in my prayer life{i have considered that God may not be...after all he IS GOD} i go throught the mix of feelings which goes....i can set aside prayer times to show my respect for The Almighty....but then i realise that he knows my heart and how much i respect and revere him and i have nothing to prove to him or anyone else. On the other hand i wish to feel closer to Christ..obviously i cant really judge that closeness because i realise that often we are closer to Him than we think. I say all this because your comment about prayer time triggered my conscience{not a bad thing} I actually struggle with being still in my head...my mind races day and night...i desire to be still with God but distraction always wins..i DETEST THAT. Sometimes i think religious practices maybe do have there 'place' but because of the church i exited i am now anti-religion as i have been Spiritually Polluted by it since i was a child without knowing it until 2005...{10 year gap in between but nevertheless what we learn as kids is planted in our Spirits whether we are in or out of the church life} RIGHT...i should go back to bed

[Zerbie]

ZERBIE

Your words are very soothing to my soul when i read them...you also seem pleasantly surprised that i did not do a 'runner'.......{hehehehe}Your encouragement is an extra balm on top of all the help i have recieved so far...especially when i read that the place i am in has been trodden before. My set aside prayer life has not been in tact for a very long time but my walk and communicate with God is always there. I used to do the regular set aside prayer as i was taught and i found it to be too religious alongside other things i was expected to do..so i broke my cycle. I am very disappointed in my prayer life{i have considered that God may not be...after all he IS GOD} i go throught the mix of feelings which goes....i can set aside prayer times to show my respect for The Almighty....but then i realise that he knows my heart and how much i respect and revere him and i have nothing to prove to him or anyone else. On the other hand i wish to feel closer to Christ..obviously i cant really judge that closeness because i realise that often we are closer to Him than we think. I say all this because your comment about prayer time triggered my conscience{not a bad thing} I actually struggle with being still in my head...my mind races day and night...i desire to be still with God but distraction always wins..i DETEST THAT. Sometimes i think religious practices maybe do have there 'place' but because of the church i exited i am now anti-religion as i have been Spiritually Polluted by it since i was a child without knowing it until 2005...{10 year gap in between but nevertheless what we learn as kids is planted in our Spirits whether we are in or out of the church life} RIGHT...i should go back to bed

Dear One,

Don't be discouraged. The regular prayer time is for us, not for God. You are right of course. God does know our hearts already. The prayer, and the regularity, is so that WE can develop our faith and our confidence in our faith. So we can have quiet time without the mind racing. God doesn't depend upon it. It is only a gift for us to use as needed. Don't pressure yourself about it. Use whatever helps you. These things shift and change according to our needs. Just make sure you take care of yourself.

[elcharrom]

Whatever anybody goes through, I believe can only be conquered by having God on your side and knowing that his son will defend you no matter what you do, you must believe that you have nothing wrong with you, that God does not think you are something ugly, people can tell you that there is nothing wrong with you, people can tell you that there is everything wrong with you, but you know, you and God know, you have to listen to him, not to us, not to anybody, only he can tell you the answer, only he knows the true answer. Good luck Assured, you will be in my prayers and I'm sure in the prayers of all these great people.

[u-dog]

Whatever anybody goes through, I believe can only be conquered by having God on your side and knowing that his son will defend you no matter what you do, you must believe that you have nothing wrong with you, that God does not think you are something ugly, people can tell you that there is nothing wrong with you, people can tell you that there is everything wrong with you, but you know, you and God know, you have to listen to him, not to us, not to anybody, only he can tell you the answer, only he knows the true answer. Good luck Assured, you will be in my prayers and I'm sure in the prayers of all these great people.

Well said, Kid ! When a guy dies for you... you gotta know he loves you.

[Jennifer5]

Welcome Assured, glad to have you here!

:)

[Assured]

Thankyou Jennifer

Have not been posting the last couple days as i am doing some research into Biblical sexuality..Found an article today about Homoeroticism in relation to the time when the apostle Paul wrote the book of Romans...{dont know if you have any religious leaning sorry}

[missmari]

And I Am Taking All The Advice They Give To You Assured...bc I Too Have Been Guilty Of Denying My Feelings For Women, Also Thinking That God Will Hate Me, And That I Will End Up In Hell (like All Those Preachers Out There Teach)...due to the intense guilt, i even considered suicide several times...and regardless of anything, THAT DEFINITELY ISN'T THE SOLUTION...!!

But You Know What, I Fell In Love W/my Current Girlfriend...and Although Things W/my Fam Are Intense, I Know That It's Something You Deal With On Your Own...slowly But Surely Things Will Become Clear...

Let me know how that Biblical sexuality research is coming along!! I'm drinking it all in here...I'm learning so much!

I Wish You The Best Of Luck Darling I Do...

God Be With You Every Step Of The Way...

*zerbie Seriously You Do Wonders...god Bless You!

[Zerbie]

And I Am Taking All The Advice They Give To You Assured...bc I Too Have Been Guilty Of Denying My Feelings For Women, Also Thinking That God Will Hate Me, And That I Will End Up In Hell (like All Those Preachers Out There Teach)...due to the intense guilt, i even considered suicide several times...and regardless of anything, THAT DEFINITELY ISN'T THE SOLUTION...!!

But You Know What, I Fell In Love W/my Current Girlfriend...and Although Things W/my Fam Are Intense, I Know That It's Something You Deal With On Your Own...slowly But Surely Things Will Become Clear...

Let me know how that Biblical sexuality research is coming along!! I'm drinking it all in here...I'm learning so much!

I Wish You The Best Of Luck Darling I Do...

God Be With You Every Step Of The Way...

*zerbie Seriously You Do Wonders...god Bless You!

(((((((( mari )))))))) and ((((( assured )))))

Hang in there. Keep learning, contemplating, praying. Most of all, be still , get quiet, and give it time.

You are loved. God's love is absolutely infinite. :dove: He knows who you are, what you think and feel, and He sends shining sunlight down on you, sends rain, gives you breath, holds your heartbeat - - you are loved, loved, loved.

[Assured]

Just to let you know that i am still here and i have not been dwellin on this site too much as i want to keep myself in check and not become addicted to you guys instead of allowing God to do what he has to do in my life.. its a very overwhelming time as you can all appreciate. I just watched the Dr.Dobson video as i felt strong enough to watch it...i was expecting vitriol and acid..{lol} it was not bad at all.

Also has anyone else on this website recieved a private message from Dorothy from Africa pretending to want to give them a FORTUNE in finances...?

I feel quite violated for someone to have CHOSEN TO COME ON THIS SITE..to send such a message...{not angry with the website..just feel as if my privacy has somehow been compromised by a scammer that appears to have no sexual identity issue...atrocious}

Maybe it is time for me to interact with you guys again...i have been trying to keep still and allow God to be God in my situation...i have posed some questions to him and i believe he will answer..i outed myself to my cousin here online this morning as he shared a joke with me that was about a homosexual flight attendant...i was not angry at the joke but it just proved my point that it is seemingly OK/.....to jest about someone's sexual orientation and this eventually led me to tellin him about myself.

He is an unmarried single Christian and to my pleasant surprise he stated some of the things that YOU GUYS and other Gay ministries speak of...he had ALREADY recognized that Christ said NOTHING about homosexuality but that HE DID...mention other issues. A friend of mine mentioned something to me the other week{also a Christian} he said that in the Bible times that the genders were viewed thus: MALE and NON MALE...as opposed to MALE and FEMALE...young boys were viewed as NON MALE as they were not yet Men...and so i guess my friend was implying that...{actually i dont even know ..i am a little anxious right now i am not thinking marvellously clearly.} at the time he said it... it rung a bell but right now i dont hear those bell sounds anymore...{lol} maybe someone else can enlighten me...:confused:

A few weeks ago i also read {or scanned thru} a book about Early Christian responses to female/homo-eroticism......Female homoeroticism in the Roman world.

Anyone from the UK.....??

[pnggrad79]

Assured,
First of all, your story practically mirrors mine. I grew up Southern Baptist and as you know, homosexuality is considered a grievous sin in that denomination. I was 27, married, and pregnant when I met a stunning young woman that I too fell in love with and we spent the next 12 years trying to label this "friendship" we felt. We called it codependent, soulmates, best friends, etc. We became intimate and that changed everything. I realized that we were more than friends and I was in love with this woman, something I never thought was possible for me. I wrestled with it for months and finally got on my hands and knees one night, came out to God, and myself, then went upstairs and told her that I was in love with her.
Since then I have quit struggling with my faith and my sexuality since I believe their is no disparity between the two. I can be a lesbian and a Christian. I won't lie to you, it has been hard and there has been a price to pay, but there is nothing like living an authentic life and I believe that is what God wants us to do. I don't think God really cares about who we sleep with, I think he cares about what we do with our lives and how we show his love toward others.
If I can help you in any way reconcile this in your mind, please let me know. I understand completely, having lived it. Welcome to Soulforce. :pray:

[Zerbie]

Welcome back, dear one.

Don't over-analyse your need for companionship and to ask questions. I can understand that at such a vulnerable time you may want to be careful about choosing your companions, but give yourself credit for knowing danger from safety and a good idea from a stupid one. There are a lot of caring people here. No one knows everything and we all have such different paths and callings, no one of them will be the same as yours, but we can share our perspectives and provide a listening ear as you figure out what you're dealing with inside.

I haven't gotten any spam PMs - that's nasty and I'd be really pissed off if I did. Did you report it to the moderators? They can ban that person from the website you know.

I'm glad you got an open response from your cousin. That's good news! You were brave to share with him and the sky didn't fall. Always a reassuring feeling.

I'm no expert on early Christian attitudes to sexuality. Recently, I did just pick up a fascinating, but really long book - phone book size, actually:p- called "Homosexuality & Civilization," author Louis Cromptom. He researched it for decades. It's a summary that starts in ancient Greece with Sapho and Anacreon, etc, and spans Europe during the middle ages and even asia (haven't gotten to those parts yet.) It's fascinating to see such a broad discussion of how sexuality issues, male and female, were viewed in so many cultures across 2000 years. Seeing people 500 years ago or 1000 years ago having roughly the same questions and conversations we're having now REALLY puts it in perspective.

[Assured]

I had assumed that you guys had stopped interacting with me as i did not realise that i could go onto a new page until yesterday...so when ever i came to the SoulForce mainpage and saw that the last person to reply was Zerbie...i assumed no one else had commented as i never thought about there being a {PAGE 2}...:lol:

Your book sounds interesting Zerbie..you know what ..even this morning i was doin some more research of websites..as yesterday i heard on Christian radio about a guy who had to leave Seminary because he was gay and i went to the website mentioned after his interview...it's for ex-Gays that have been damaged by reparation ministries..e.t.c..i also googled Lesbian Christians and in one site i saw a link for music and books and i realised that i would LOVE to buy a book on the subject and then i realised that 'owning' a book on the Sexuality/Christianity issue would CEMENT me as....well...A Christian Lesbian...{not that it really would ..but you know what i mean}.

I AM going to read as much as i can though on this subject in relation to Bible Times. I have not finalised whether or not this is Gods will for my life..i am trying to be ambiguous about it...i guess i think that if God wants me to be this way he will present me with The Princess Of My Dreams...and if not a VERY REMARKABLE MAN that i will not struggle to love in anyway shape or form.

I must say that i feel at home here when i read the responses..it's like listening to my own heart...Miss Mari and PngGrad thankyou for sharing.

I emailed my Female Heterosexual Christian friend the link to one of the video's on here...the one by SMEDES and i also sent her the link to What The Bible Says...document. I saw her for the first time since over a year ago so we were catching up so i was sharing my progress with her and trying to explain that i am looking at things from a different perspective...i said that i want to be REAL with myself and God and she said in reply that THAT phrase concerns her...she said that it sounds as if i am just doing what my emotions are telling me to do instead of what is right....:rolleyes:

[Zerbie]

:lol:

I was afraid to reply again in case you thought the thread stopped, again. My reaction to this was, uh oh, I really do talk too much. :rolleyes:

Hey, what's on your mind?

You can always create a new thread, ya know? If you have a question, or news to share, anything like that.

As far as owning the book with lesbian or gay themes, I see what you mean because I used to feel that way. But really, really seriously, and intellectually, look again. All it "means" is that you own a book. Paper, with words printed on it. It's just someone's ideas. It's just a book. If it interests you, get it. If not, leave it on the shelf.

Btw: I used to work in a bookstore. We had a small gay/lesbian section, and it used to make me feel sad to notice the customers browsing that section would come in alone, and look around to see if anyone was watching before they would walk over there and pick up a book. And if someone passed by, they would wander on as if they were looking for some other subject, and wait til they were alone again to go pick the book up another time. :( How AWFUL that society has trained people to be so worried and scared about what someone will think of them, that they feel too shy to pick up a book on a topic that interests them. People have been frightened to death! That, my dear Assured, is wrong. For people to put this kind of emotional burden on so many people, just for having feelings (which are perfectly natural to have, I might add.)

Just a few months ago I was shopping in a bookstore and wanted to browse the gay/lesbian section. A young man was in there picking up books and glancing through the contents. When I came into that aisle, he left. So I pretended to be looking for another section and went around the corner. Then he went back. My presence drove him away. A complete stranger! And this guy felt like he couldn't stand there and browse books if a stranger might see. :(

[paul]

:lol:



Btw: I used to work in a bookstore. We had a small gay/lesbian section, and it used to make me feel sad to notice the customers browsing that section would come in alone, and look around to see if anyone was watching before they would walk over there and pick up a book. And if someone passed by, they would wander on as if they were looking for some other subject, and wait til they were alone again to go pick the book up another time. :( How AWFUL that society has trained people to be so worried and scared about what someone will think of them, that they feel too shy to pick up a book on a topic that interests them. People have been frightened to death! That, my dear Assured, is wrong. For people to put this kind of emotional burden on so many people, just for having feelings (which are perfectly natural to have, I might add.)

Just a few months ago I was shopping in a bookstore and wanted to browse the gay/lesbian section. A young man was in there picking up books and glancing through the contents. When I came into that aisle, he left. So I pretended to be looking for another section and went around the corner. Then he went back. My presence drove him away. A complete stranger! And this guy felt like he couldn't stand there and browse books if a stranger might see. :(

Oh gee Zerbie, that was me:o...just a year and a half ago, and my whole life.
And I hated it and myself for doing it. When I did accept myself, that changed. A few months ago I was in a Borders book store. I went to the gay section and got myself a novel, went to the restaurant and got an ooey gooey melted turkey and cheese sandwich and sat down and read. When it came time to go, I decided the book was good enough to buy. So I took it to the check out that was also attended by a good looking guy. He made some comment about the book (can't remember what) and I looked him in the eye and said I had selected it because the picture of the author on the front cover was cute. He looked at the picture of the guy, looked back at me and smiled and said, "yeah." It was very liberating to simply not care what a stranger thought, and simply be myself.

[Assured]

lol...me and my dorky self with these threads...i was just wondering if i am just feeling extra vulnerable because i am attempting to not be in touch with my best friend to try and basically disband the feelings of love because me and her are never going to be together and i don't want to live in la la land.

She said that she would feel jealous if i end up with a Woman and not a man because a man is not competition for her..this was one of the first times she has been so open about her feelings to that level anyway....i obvioulsy know her feelings but i often wonder about the depth of them and if this is all a little experiment. I feel lost depriving myself because of the marital situation but i just dont know how else to try and get her out of my system ...she is in there reeeel deep...my heart is aching....i feel all alone....i feel like i NEED to love her it's become part of my make up....i just dont know how i am going to deal with no communication even though its my decision...i just feel too deeply for her to continue being friends and on the other hand i feel too deeply to not be friends,,,

Zerbie...you dont talk too much as far as i am concerned

[Assured]

Paul

I am glad you stopped hiding...how liberating...i also feel a little like that with regards to a church i had to exit 2 years ago....at one point i was ok if i saw one of them in a shop or something but now..i am doing the disappearing act because i dont want the false smiles and questioning looks because my image is now more liberated and i dont look like one of them..especially now i am goin through this sexuality issue i feel as if i am removed from mainstream church as long as i think this way...it's almost as if i think they will know all my secrets{even though i know they dont} I am scared to share with the few christian friends i told last year about my situation with this young lady..at the time i thought it was a quick mistake that would disappear and now i feel too ashamed to say that it has been a continuing issue for me...{apart from the friend i mentioned in my last post} i guess i think they will now write me off as a backslider that just wants to do her own thing and has been decieved.....sighs

[scott snedeker]

I hear so much past haunting you. Have you considered making a new start in a new town open and honest with your feelings. This woman may more represent freedom from heterosexist repression for you than anything. maybe the solution is letting go of the past so that you can start to live in the joy of the present?

[Assured]

PNGGRAD

YES..i do believe you would be of some assistance to me but of course in my situation i will not end up getting the girl...i just dont know what to do now...i feel stuck and desperately in need of help especially now that i am attempting no contact...its as if i just cut my right hand off...i am up against a brick wall. Was she not ALSO my best friend...i saw you said that you labelled yours many times..maybe you can talk me through it

[Zerbie]

Oh gee Zerbie, that was me:o...just a year and a half ago, and my whole life.
And I hated it and myself for doing it. When I did accept myself, that changed. A few months ago I was in a Borders book store. I went to the gay section and got myself a novel, went to the restaurant and got an ooey gooey melted turkey and cheese sandwich and sat down and read. When it came time to go, I decided the book was good enough to buy. So I took it to the check out that was also attended by a good looking guy. He made some comment about the book (can't remember what) and I looked him in the eye and said I had selected it because the picture of the author on the front cover was cute. He looked at the picture of the guy, looked back at me and smiled and said, "yeah." It was very liberating to simply not care what a stranger thought, and simply be myself.

Oh Paul!! :love::love::love: :) I'm glad you were able to engage in a pleasant banter with the cashier - you were finally able to be "real" for a short time, and let someone see a part of you that has been invisible (and hiding, scared.)

When I think of you ducking around corners until about a year ago, I just want to grab you and give you a big squeezing hug. :(:love:


Paul

I am glad you stopped hiding...how liberating...i also feel a little like that with regards to a church i had to exit 2 years ago....at one point i was ok if i saw one of them in a shop or something but now..i am doing the disappearing act because i dont want the false smiles and questioning looks because my image is now more liberated and i dont look like one of them..especially now i am goin through this sexuality issue i feel as if i am removed from mainstream church as long as i think this way...it's almost as if i think they will know all my secrets{even though i know they dont} I am scared to share with the few christian friends i told last year about my situation with this young lady..at the time i thought it was a quick mistake that would disappear and now i feel too ashamed to say that it has been a continuing issue for me...{apart from the friend i mentioned in my last post} i guess i think they will now write me off as a backslider that just wants to do her own thing and has been decieved.....sighs

I hear so much past haunting you. Have you considered making a new start in a new town open and honest with your feelings. This woman may more represent freedom from heterosexist repression for you than anything. maybe the solution is letting go of the past so that you can start to live in the joy of the present?

That's an interesting thought, Assured. Could you make a clean break by starting anew somewhere?

I don't blame you for wanting to get away from a perceived history. In fact, when I went through my What Am I? phase, 12 years ago, I moved 1500 miles away - just quit my job, my home, left the old circle where people knew someone fake who they thought was me, and lived out of packing crates for a couple years in a completely different part of the country. Texas, which is in ways it's own country. And I found my way. Liberated from so much sh*t.

You are doing right by not continuing a relationship with someone you cannot have. Whatever her feelings for you, she is not committed to you, she is committed to a marriage and children. Even if she is torn, it's you who gets the shortest stick. In time, even the strength of grief feeling you have for separating with her will fade, if you do not feed it.

Hang out with some new friends. Can you go meet new people 3D? Sounds like you need a good book club, gardening club, bowling or swimming or running group - something social. If you're feeling up for it, see what social activities your area's LGBT community supports. In my area, we have everything from Buddhist meditation groups to square dancing listed in the social calendar for our LGBT community. Then again, maybe it's too early to be quite so "out," yet, so maybe a general book club or exercise class would be more appropriate than a gay-centered one.

[paul]

lol...me and my dorky self with these threads...i was just wondering if i am just feeling extra vulnerable because i am attempting to not be in touch with my best friend to try and basically disband the feelings of love because me and her are never going to be together and i don't want to live in la la land.

She said that she would feel jealous if i end up with a Woman and not a man because a man is not competition for her..this was one of the first times she has been so open about her feelings to that level anyway....i obvioulsy know her feelings but i often wonder about the depth of them and if this is all a little experiment. I feel lost depriving myself because of the marital situation but i just dont know how else to try and get her out of my system ...she is in there reeeel deep...my heart is aching....i feel all alone....i feel like i NEED to love her it's become part of my make up....i just dont know how i am going to deal with no communication even though its my decision...i just feel too deeply for her to continue being friends and on the other hand i feel too deeply to not be friends,,,



Ah gee sweetheart,

It's tough. You have your high standards on the one side and your legitimate feelings on the other. You know you have to maintain your integrity to have love. So, you really are loving her. She, of course, needs to come to terms with her own situation so that she can maintain her own integrity...you are helping her do this. A relationship tainted with lies is a rotten thing. For what it's worth, I'm proud of you, you are quite a person.
paul

[paul]

Paul

I am glad you stopped hiding...how liberating...i also feel a little like that with regards to a church i had to exit 2 years ago....at one point i was ok if i saw one of them in a shop or something but now..i am doing the disappearing act because i dont want the false smiles and questioning looks because my image is now more liberated and i dont look like one of them..especially now i am goin through this sexuality issue i feel as if i am removed from mainstream church as long as i think this way...it's almost as if i think they will know all my secrets{even though i know they dont} I am scared to share with the few christian friends i told last year about my situation with this young lady..at the time i thought it was a quick mistake that would disappear and now i feel too ashamed to say that it has been a continuing issue for me...{apart from the friend i mentioned in my last post} i guess i think they will now write me off as a backslider that just wants to do her own thing and has been decieved.....sighs

If they do write you off, it is because they don't see your heart because they are blinded by their beliefs. Understand that the blind may never see you. You need to have friends who will see you for who you are, not make you try and conform to their image of who they think you should be. That's a lie, and lying is a sin last I checked.

We see ourselves in the mirror of relationship. If the mirror you are using is dirty, you will see yourself as dirty. You need a clean mirror to get an accurate image of who you are.
:love:
paul

[Assured]

Paul

Thankyou for feeling proud of me..it put a mini smile on my face...i have so many reminders of her...she is on my myspace{which she actually did for me} i have her pic as wall paper on my cell and many other pics in there...i have a bear she sent me b4 we met earlier in the year which lies on me when i sleep...i even have something cute to send to her...i have other items that we have exchanged....sighs...Can i have these items and feel ok within myself...will i soon put another picture as wallpaper on my cell...will i remove her time zone from my cell and step back into UK time...{not that i have been literally living in her time but since i left her i never reset my cell deliberately} You must think that i am a nut...i'm just sentimental and i have an enormous heart full of love but she is not the right person to recieve what i have.. I need an empty vessel that i can fill and someone that not only declares they love me but can ACTUALLY manifest that love in more TANGIBLE LASTING ways. I really hope that God honours my decision to do this... i must admit that since this morning i have not been feeling so much pain as i cheered myself up with some music i stumbled on but the thing is...the music is from her culture...{lol} but it causes no pain and puts a smile on my face. I realise i am going to have to do this day by day...i am hiding myself from her online while at the same time looking out for her{silly i know}. Now i have come to this point i am scared of slipping and showing any signs of weakness...i trust that God will balance my emotions regarding her and keep my mind and Spirit sane.

[paul]

No, no, no.

I do not think you "nuts" or "silly." What you are doing is very hard. Only someone ignorant of what you feel, with all it's complications would. But not me, and I doubt anyone here will. Many of us not only understand, we can relate. I screwed up with my brother in law. It hurt everyone I love, including him. He was taken, he wasn't mine to even express my affections for. What you are doing is loving her, you are not keeping your love from her, you are giving up your life for her...that's the most profound love there is. You're doing great.
:love: