View Full Version : Music and "spirituality"
I have groused here at soulforce and other places that no one (including me) seems to be able to define "spiritual." No matter, it's just a thing with me.
Music often comes close to being "spiritual" for me, whatever the heck that is. I was listening to the Court and Spark cd (Joni Mitchell) on my way into work. I have been listening to that cd since it was still an album, then a cassette (sigh, I'm dating myself, I know). Her music, particularly the collection of songs from Court and Spark just resonates with me. It never fails to nail me and put me in a wistful almost melancholy mood. It's like she is a kindred "spirit" I guess.
elcharrom
08-07-2007, 09:49 AM
I have groused here at soulforce and other places that no one (including me) seems to be able to define "spiritual." No matter, it's just a thing with me.
Music often comes close to being "spiritual" for me, whatever the heck that is. I was listening to the Court and Spark cd (Joni Mitchell) on my way into work. I have been listening to that cd since it was still an album, then a cassette (sigh, I'm dating myself, I know). Her music, particularly the collection of songs from Court and Spark just resonates with me. It never fails to nail me and put me in a wistful almost melancholy mood. It's like she is a kindred "spirit" I guess.
I cant define it either, but them Im like why am I trying so hard to define it? It feels good, no use wasting time not feeeling it and trying to define it. I dont think it needs a defenition. Just what I think:D
u-dog
08-07-2007, 10:02 AM
I cant define it either, but them Im like why am I trying so hard to define it? It feels good, no use wasting time not feeeling it and trying to define it. I dont think it needs a defenition. Just what I think:D
Are you listening to the kid Paul? I think he's on the right track!! ;)
:lol:
Okay, Let me try again, I obviously didn't put that very well (besides, that wasn't the point of my thread, I was mainly talking about the music). To me the "definition" would be a safety from delusion. Something to measure against to discern what is truly "spiritual."
As I read the bible, "the spirit" is a distinct part of the human make up versus an idea or attitude. It is not the intellect, it is not emotion, though by my read it seems it can and does effect both of those. The bible instructs: "walk by the spirit, and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh." This begs the question, if one is to follow that directive, they need to have some idea of what "the spirit" is and what "the flesh" is. It seems to me that it's going to be difficult to follow that directive if one cannot differentiate between their emotions, intellect ("soul?") and "spirit." I think gay Christians, of all people, would be concerned about this. What with all the very sincere Christians who think we're going to hell for our acting on our attractions to the same sex. Many believe that legislation should be enacted now to punish us. These guys pray, they read the bible, they are certain they follow God. Many here at soulforce pray, read the bible and are certain they follow God. Can you see where an unbeliever would look at the two and say: "will the real Christian please stand up?" And of course, both stand up.
You will agree that all have emotions and all have intellect (to varying degrees)? That these are natural? And who among us has not been misled by both a million times (both their own and others)?
"But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Cor.2:14
u-dog
08-07-2007, 01:37 PM
:lol:
Okay, Let me try again, I obviously didn't put that very well (besides, that wasn't the point of my thread, I was mainly talking about the music). To me the "definition" would be a safety from delusion. Something to measure against to discern what is truly "spiritual."
As I read the bible, "the spirit" is a distinct part of the human make up versus an idea or attitude. It is not the intellect, it is not emotion, though by my read it seems it can and does effect both of those. The bible instructs: "walk by the spirit, and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh." This begs the question, if one is to follow that directive, they need to have some idea of what "the spirit" is and what "the flesh" is. It seems to me that it's going to be difficult to follow that directive if one cannot differentiate between their emotions, intellect ("soul?") and "spirit." I think gay Christians, of all people, would be concerned about this. What with all the very sincere Christians who think we're going to hell for our acting on our attractions to the same sex. Many believe that legislation should be enacted now to punish us. These guys pray, they read the bible, they are certain they follow God. Many here at soulforce pray, read the bible and are certain they follow God. Can you see where an unbeliever would look at the two and say: "will the real Christian please stand up?" And of course, both stand up.
You will agree that all have emotions and all have intellect (to varying degrees)? That these are natural? And who among us has not been misled by both a million times (both their own and others)?
"But a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Cor.2:14
HEY ANDY!!! WE NEED YOU OVER HERE !! Clean up on Aisle 7 !!
Ok, I think I see where your problem is. The fundamentalists read the English translations of Paul's letters and assume that "natural" and "flesh" have to do with sex. and therefor "spirit" or "Spiritual" must be something that is the opposite of sex. NOT.
When Paul uses the word "Pneuma" and (I think! my computer bible program is at home) "Psarxis?" he what he is contrasting is not "body" and "soul" or "sex" and "spirit" he is contrasting the physical/political/economic/social world of exterior expectations and values with the what Jesus would have called "the Kingdom of Heaven" or the "Kingdom of God" A spiritual reality with an entirely different set of priorities, goals, and values.
To walk in the spirit is to live according to the values of the Realm of God. To live according to the Flesh is to live by the priorities and values of culture (wealth, sex, pleasure, power, etc)
It is quite possible to live a sexual life and still walk in the Spirit. It is likely much HARDER to run a major corporation and still walk in the spirit.
I haven't really done an exhaustive study of this, but I think that when Paul talks about "the SPirit" he is usually talking about God and not about a particular aspect of the human person.
Zerbie
08-07-2007, 03:50 PM
:lol:
As I read the bible, "the spirit" is a distinct part of the human make up versus an idea or attitude. It is not the intellect, it is not emotion, though by my read it seems it can and does effect both of those. The bible instructs: "walk by the spirit, and you will not fulfill the desires of the flesh." This begs the question, if one is to follow that directive, they need to have some idea of what "the spirit" is and what "the flesh" is. Cor.2:14
The spirit is not a part, it's the entire thing. The body is a PART of the spirit, in embodied form. That is why the spirit influences so much the emotions, the mind, the body. . . . I see these things as residing inside the spirit, then the spirit residing again deeper within them, like an infinite series of interlocks.
The spirit is righteousness - to walk in the spirit is to follow the eternal laws, not just worldly laws. As MLK and Gandhi found, sometimes it is necessary to engage in civil disobedience to worldly laws in order to follow the eternal ones. One whose eyes are on the worldly things, the external things, forgets himself. Lord Jesus was - is - frequently misunderstood to be speaking of external things when he spoke of the internal, the inner kingdom.
To discern the voice of the eternal spirit from our mind or our emotions is very difficult because everything in our experience is so intermixed. It is necessary to get very quiet and still, which requires practice. It will make sense if we compare it to waves. If our thoughts and emotions are like waves of water, when we are in tumult they are like ocean waves during a hurricane. Other times, like the waves of a calmer ocean or the running of rivers and brooks. They are always changing, shifting, and moving. There is always restlessness in the thoughts and emotions. But the spirit is like a stillness deep within the heart of all those waves, sometimes so buried we cannot seem to find it. But when you discern one of its messages it carries some of that stillness and calmness with it. When the waves subside, you know you are coming closer to its home. Which is your home.
The spirit is not a part, it's the entire thing. The body is a PART of the spirit, in embodied form. That is why the spirit influences so much the emotions, the mind, the body. . . . I see these things as residing inside the spirit, then the spirit residing again deeper within them, like an infinite series of interlocks.
The spirit is righteousness - to walk in the spirit is to follow the eternal laws, not just worldly laws. As MLK and Gandhi found, sometimes it is necessary to engage in civil disobedience to worldly laws in order to follow the eternal ones. One whose eyes are on the worldly things, the external things, forgets himself. Lord Jesus was - is - frequently misunderstood to be speaking of external things when he spoke of the internal, the inner kingdom.
To discern the voice of the eternal spirit from our mind or our emotions is very difficult because everything in our experience is so intermixed. It is necessary to get very quiet and still, which requires practice. It will make sense if we compare it to waves. If our thoughts and emotions are like waves of water, when we are in tumult they are like ocean waves during a hurricane. Other times, like the waves of a calmer ocean or the running of rivers and brooks. They are always changing, shifting, and moving. There is always restlessness in the thoughts and emotions. But the spirit is like a stillness deep within the heart of all those waves, sometimes so buried we cannot seem to find it. But when you discern one of its messages it carries some of that stillness and calmness with it. When the waves subside, you know you are coming closer to its home. Which is your home.
Zerbie! To me, you are quite a person of substance. Thanks for your thoughts.
The spirit is not a part, it's the entire thing. The body is a PART of the spirit, in embodied form. That is why the spirit influences so much the emotions, the mind, the body. . . . I see these things as residing inside the spirit, then the spirit residing again deeper within them, like an infinite series of interlocks.
You are sounding a bit Buddhist Zerbie (in addition to the above, using the term "Lord Jesus" vs. The Lord Jesus...am I reading you right?). I haven't figured out how you identify (or if you do). Most of my understanding of that part of you comes from the thread "Why Zerbie is not a Christian" (I think that's what it was titled?).
Using the bible to affirm what you said: "...in him we live and move and have our being...by him and through him all things consist...." Another biblical angle: "God formed man from the dust of the earth then breathed into him the breath of life, and man became a living being." "Breath" in Hebrew is "ruach" which like the Greek pneuma is translated as breath, wind, spirit. So, that could also be translated: "God formed man from the dust of the earth then spirited into him the spirit of life, and man became a living being.
From a fundamental Christian standpoint, the spirit it what died because of original sin. The spirit is reborn when one accepts Jesus sacrifice for their sin.
Lord Jesus was - is - frequently misunderstood to be speaking of external things when he spoke of the internal, the inner kingdom.
To discern the voice of the eternal spirit from our mind or our emotions is very difficult because everything in our experience is so intermixed. It is necessary to get very quiet and still, which requires practice. It will make sense if we compare it to waves. If our thoughts and emotions are like waves of water, when we are in tumult they are like ocean waves during a hurricane. Other times, like the waves of a calmer ocean or the running of rivers and brooks. They are always changing, shifting, and moving. There is always restlessness in the thoughts and emotions. But the spirit is like a stillness deep within the heart of all those waves, sometimes so buried we cannot seem to find it. But when you discern one of its messages it carries some of that stillness and calmness with it. When the waves subside, you know you are coming closer to its home. Which is your home
Hmmm, there's that Buddhist thing again, or maybe Theosophy (which has Buddhist roots).
Again, some biblical affrimation: "be still and know that I am God." "... and a wind storm came, God was not in it, thunder came, God was not in it, then God came as a still small voice..." (sorry, I am paraphrasing all my scripture from memory). "The spirit is like the wind, no one knows where it comes from or where it goes, it goes where it will...so is everyone who is lead by the spirit."
I have a particular take, from my Christian perspective, on how to walk by the spirit. I'll share it if you are interested, and my reservations as well.
u-dog
08-08-2007, 08:43 AM
From a fundamental Christian standpoint, the spirit it what died because of original sin. The spirit is reborn when one accepts Jesus sacrifice for their sin.
What is the Biblical warrant for this belief? I've never heard thi expressed before.
elcharrom
08-08-2007, 09:03 AM
HEY ANDY!!! WE NEED YOU OVER HERE !! Clean up on Aisle 7 !!
Ok, I think I see where your problem is. The fundamentalists read the English translations of Paul's letters and assume that "natural" and "flesh" have to do with sex. and therefor "spirit" or "Spiritual" must be something that is the opposite of sex. NOT.
When Paul uses the word "Pneuma" and (I think! my computer bible program is at home) "Psarxis?" he what he is contrasting is not "body" and "soul" or "sex" and "spirit" he is contrasting the physical/political/economic/social world of exterior expectations and values with the what Jesus would have called "the Kingdom of Heaven" or the "Kingdom of God" A spiritual reality with an entirely different set of priorities, goals, and values.
To walk in the spirit is to live according to the values of the Realm of God. To live according to the Flesh is to live by the priorities and values of culture (wealth, sex, pleasure, power, etc)
It is quite possible to live a sexual life and still walk in the Spirit. It is likely much HARDER to run a major corporation and still walk in the spirit.
I haven't really done an exhaustive study of this, but I think that when Paul talks about "the SPirit" he is usually talking about God and not about a particular aspect of the human person.
I believe it to be just as u-dog said, that God is the spirit, and that our variations of the understanding of God affect how we believe we should follow him. But again I always go to the same thing, it's all up to you to believe. Like me, I believe I am doing absolutely nothing wrong in being gay and living as I believe planned me to live. But I may be wrong, I havent read the bible at all, most of my beliefs and feelings about God come naturally, so I make an effort to read the bible and find out for myself just what the deal is. I will take in information from both sides, from gays and antigays alike, and I take every bit into consideration and ask God, is it true? In the end I dont let anyone influence me but God and his loving son and our savior Jesus Christ, and in the end I will decide wether to listen and believe them with complete devotion.
And it is my understanding that the voice that talks to you when you quiet yourself, your mind, and then will you only be able to truly hear your spirit, which I believe is God himself speaking to us.
elcharrom
08-08-2007, 09:06 AM
What is the Biblical warrant for this belief? I've never heard thi expressed before.
I think I have heard this, I believe it is what the dip in the Jordan river represents and what a baptism represents too, a way of being reborn when you get up from under the water? Dont quote me on this though, Im no the most bibleinformed person:o
u-dog
08-08-2007, 09:14 AM
I think I have heard this, I believe it is what the dip in the Jordan river represents and what a baptism represents too, a way of being reborn when you get up from under the water? Dont quote me on this though, Im no the most bibleinformed person:o
Yes, I'm familiar with that understanding of Baptism. What I have never heard before was the idea that the Spirit of God is somehow "killed" by the sin of Adam and Eve and "reborn" in Christ.
The Hebrew understanding of a human being is that we are "enspirited bodies" The Greek idea is that we are Spirits that inhabit bodies. Two very different ideas. The Hebrew word that gets translated "soul" is "Nephesh" it is related to the noun for "neck or throat" in other words... the place where breath and body meet. A human person is what happens when the spirit of God and flesh are combined. If the spirit died or was taken away... the body would die. But at the same time a spirit without a body is not a human being either. This is the origin of the Christian idea of the resurrection of the body and Paul's understanding that at the sound of the Last Trumpet we will be raised and given new, Spiritual Bodies.
Zerbie
08-08-2007, 10:53 AM
I, I havent read the bible at all, most of my beliefs and feelings about God come naturally, so I make an effort to read the bible and find out for myself just what the deal is. I will take in information from both sides, from gays and antigays alike, and I take every bit into consideration and ask God, is it true? In the end I dont let anyone influence me but God
.
Yes! Yes! Yes! :award:
Zerbie
08-08-2007, 11:08 AM
Zerbie! To me, you are quite a person of substance. Thanks for your thoughts.
The spirit is not a part, it's the entire thing. The body is a PART of the spirit, in embodied form. That is why the spirit influences so much the emotions, the mind, the body. . . . I see these things as residing inside the spirit, then the spirit residing again deeper within them, like an infinite series of interlocks.
You are sounding a bit Buddhist Zerbie
All I know about Buddhism is that whenever I open my mouth to speak on religion people say "Oh, you're Buddhist."
(in addition to the above, using the term "Lord Jesus" vs. The Lord Jesus...am I reading you right?).
Oh? I didn't know there was a difference of article usage. But no, I'm not going to say "the" as it would imply the singular. I imagine many christians would be disturbed by that - sorry if so.
I haven't figured out how you identify (or if you do). Most of my understanding of that part of you comes from the thread "Why Zerbie is not a Christian" (I think that's what it was titled?).
That's about all there is for you to know. I don't tend to join teams or groups, not much of a "joiner," and I do not identify to any particular religion. I've found most church-type groups to be far too much the social club and have far too little to do with spirituality. If I can't see God outside of church, I'm not going to suddenly see him IN a building.
When I worship, I use sacred Sanskrit chants, which means I have a passing familiarity and comfort-level with Hinduism as a means of religious expression. I've never read a Bible.
Using the bible to affirm what you said: "...in him we live and move and have our being...by him and through him all things consist...." Another biblical angle: "God formed man from the dust of the earth then breathed into him the breath of life, and man became a living being." "Breath" in Hebrew is "ruach" which like the Greek pneuma is translated as breath, wind, spirit. So, that could also be translated: "God formed man from the dust of the earth then spirited into him the spirit of life, and man became a living being.
I did not intend to be Biblical, but if what I wrote fits with your beliefs and you like it, by all means hang onto it. The word spirit is etymologically linked to the Latin word for breath - the meaning of inspire means both to fill with spirit and to breathe.
From a fundamental Christian standpoint, the spirit it what died because of original sin. The spirit is reborn when one accepts Jesus sacrifice for their sin.
I'm going to leave that alone.
Lord Jesus was - is - frequently misunderstood to be speaking of external things when he spoke of the internal, the inner kingdom.
To discern the voice of the eternal spirit from our mind or our emotions is very difficult because everything in our experience is so intermixed. It is necessary to get very quiet and still, which requires practice. It will make sense if we compare it to waves. If our thoughts and emotions are like waves of water, when we are in tumult they are like ocean waves during a hurricane. Other times, like the waves of a calmer ocean or the running of rivers and brooks. They are always changing, shifting, and moving. There is always restlessness in the thoughts and emotions. But the spirit is like a stillness deep within the heart of all those waves, sometimes so buried we cannot seem to find it. But when you discern one of its messages it carries some of that stillness and calmness with it. When the waves subside, you know you are coming closer to its home. Which is your home
Hmmm, there's that Buddhist thing again, or maybe Theosophy (which has Buddhist roots).
Theosophy?! Apparently, I have all these codified philosophies I know nothing about! :lol:
I was just describing to you what I've found.
Again, some biblical affrimation: "be still and know that I am God." "... and a wind storm came, God was not in it, thunder came, God was not in it, then God came as a still small voice..." (sorry, I am paraphrasing all my scripture from memory). "The spirit is like the wind, no one knows where it comes from or where it goes, it goes where it will...so is everyone who is lead by the spirit."
I have a particular take, from my Christian perspective, on how to walk by the spirit. I'll share it if you are interested, and my reservations as well.
Yes, of course Paul. :love:
From a fundamental Christian standpoint, the spirit is what died because of original sin. The spirit is reborn when one accepts Jesus sacrifice for their sin.
What is the Biblical warrant for this belief? I've never heard thi expressed before.
That's spirit, not Spirit...I'm guessing some would take issue with the distinction. I was raised on this stuff, so this was standard fundamental Christian fare for me. Since I am citing fundamental Christianity, here's a good example from a "fundamental, protestant" organization:
www.gotquestions.org/death.html
I do think these guys left out a key scripture from John 3 where it states that Jesus taught "you must be born again (v.3) then qualifies that "Spirit gives birth to spirit" (v.6NIV). So I add that in as a former fundamentalist.
Ah Zerbie,
Wasn't trying to saddle you with a label, just fishing for clarification. Some (Buddhists among them) would purport that some of these things are universal truths, i.e, most Buddhist would say "there are many paths to 'God.'" So, that you have come to certain understanding sans Buddha (albeit maybe not sans sanskrit...sorry, couldn't resist) is right on par. Also, I should clarify that I don't consider myself a "Christian..." I don't even play one on t.v.. But I lived as a fundamentalist for most of my life, so I do use that as a point of reference.
As to the "Lord Jesus" vs. "The Lord Jesus." That's kind of a give away in eastern mystical circles. Some believe Jesus was a Lord vs. a Christians take that he is the Lord...exclusively.
Re: my using the bible to "affirm" what you were saying. Well, some consider the bible a sacred book with valid info in it. Since I am familiar with the bible I used it to say, "Hey, here's some people who seemed to agree with you Zerbie," Not as some definitive statement.
As to this statement: "I have a particular take, from my Christian perspective, on how to walk by the spirit. I'll share it if you are interested, and my reservations as well." :o I wasn't looking for an opportunity to expound my profound wisdom, just thought it might be germane to the discussion if any wanted to go there. Since I wasn't sure of where you were coming from, I thought you might be interested in continued discussion from Christian perspective...but really, anyone who chants sanskrit will end up in a fundamental "Christian" hell.:rolleyes:
Zerbie
08-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Ah Zerbie,
Wasn't trying to saddle you with a label, just fishing for clarification.
I know.
As to the "Lord Jesus" vs. "The Lord Jesus." That's kind of a give away in eastern mystical circles. Some believe Jesus was a Lord vs. a Christians take that he is the Lord...exclusively.
Re: my using the bible to "affirm" what you were saying. Well, some consider the bible a sacred book with valid info in it. Since I am familiar with the bible I used it to say, "Hey, here's some people who seemed to agree with you Zerbie," Not as some definitive statement.
Yes, I got that. I wished to clarify for all reading that my words were not intended to be Biblically based, but if some find them so. . .
As to this statement: "I have a particular take, from my Christian perspective, on how to walk by the spirit. I'll share it if you are interested, and my reservations as well." :o I wasn't looking for an opportunity to expound my profound wisdom, just thought it might be germane to the discussion if any wanted to go there. Since I wasn't sure of where you were coming from, I thought you might be interested in continued discussion from Christian perspective
That's what I thought. That's why I said "of course," to see what your thoughts are on the subject. Especially since it meant enough to you to bring it up by starting this thread. Did you think I was being sarcastic? :( I wanted to invite you to share whatever it is. I've loved having you here on the forum and I always look forward to your insights. :love:
...but really, anyone who chants sanskrit will end up in a fundamental "Christian" hell.:rolleyes:
Well, it will be absolute bliss in hell then. Can't wait!
I believe it to be just as u-dog said, that God is the spirit, and that our variations of the understanding of God affect how we believe we should follow him. But again I always go to the same thing, it's all up to you to believe. Like me, I believe I am doing absolutely nothing wrong in being gay and living as I believe planned me to live. But I may be wrong, I havent read the bible at all, most of my beliefs and feelings about God come naturally, so I make an effort to read the bible and find out for myself just what the deal is. I will take in information from both sides, from gays and antigays alike, and I take every bit into consideration and ask God, is it true? In the end I dont let anyone influence me but God and his loving son and our savior Jesus Christ, and in the end I will decide wether to listen and believe them with complete devotion.
And it is my understanding that the voice that talks to you when you quiet yourself, your mind, and then will you only be able to truly hear your spirit, which I believe is God himself speaking to us.
Hi Elcharrom,
Sorry to take so long to respond to you, I'm not ignoring you...I have to write in snatches, I do this at work.
I understand the idea that "God is the spirit." Where I step back and become tentative (not saying you or u-dog is wrong, just looking at it) is with the "variations of the understanding of God affect how we believe we should follow him" part of the equation. That's where our mind and emotions come in, it seems to me, and also where the divisions come in. If God is one, it would follow that God's followers also have the opportunity to be one. The devil is in the details, i.e., the "variations of the understanding of God." Simply put, if "walking by the spirit" is a matter of getting silent and listening with the guarantee that if we do that God will lead, then anyone should be able to do that. I don't think say, Ted Haggard, is any less convinced that he is doing this than Mel White...but they come to very different conclusions about being gay (for instance) and each uses the bible to back it up as well. So, you have nuts like me questioning the method and intricacies of being spiritual cause it seems they both can't be right.
You, like many, take the approach of listening to what both sides have to say, read the bible, (i.e., "I take every bit into consideration "). Then you "ask God, is it true?" My question always goes back to are we being "still" or just stiller than usual? Or to put it another way, how much are we really able to separate from our own ideas and feelings, that what we get is really what God thinks and feels. How do we know we are hearing God? See, someone has to be wrong, maybe both, because God wouldn't tell you gay is okay, and tell Ted Haggard gay is bad. Who's not hearing right and why? How do we, for lack of better words, proof that? Well, in bible times the proof that God was on your side came in the form of a miracle or sign from God. In the absence of as sign from the "Spirit", people rely on reason or emotion to support their beliefs.
Hi Zerbie,
I tend to go overboard with clarification on where I'm coming from. I have seen to many misunderstandings in cyberworld since elements of communication like tone and facial expression are missing. Thanks for your patience.
"That's what I thought. That's why I said "of course," to see what your thoughts are on the subject. Especially since it meant enough to you to bring it up by starting this thread. Did you think I was being sarcastic? I wanted to invite you to share whatever it is. I've loved having you here on the forum and I always look forward to your insights. "
Zerbie, I cannot imagine you being "sarcastic." I have never witnessed you being that way with anyone. What I was thinking/feeling was the opposite: i.e., that you were being your usual thoughtful and caring self showing interest in another person (me in this case, but caring is a pattern with you:)) That's why I did the 'embarassed' emoticon, because I thought you might think I was fishing for an opportunity to express my thoughts to an interested party. That is not beyond me :o, but in this case it was an academic question. I wasn't sure, given your clarifications, if anyone (not just you, though I was responding to you) was really interested in a former fundamental Christians views on walking in the spirit. Why would you/they be? Especially since I no longer identify as "fundamental Christian." Well, I figure you would be, not so much because you are fascinated by the narrow topic, but because you care about the presenter? thank you. and I will continue to ramble on if you have interest, but hey, I care about you too and am not interested in boring you...if I can help it. soooo
BTW, I am interested in your chanting sanskrit. Why do you do it? How did you come to that place? What do you derive from the practice? I am interested in your ideas of spiritual, "God." While I no longer identify as a fundamental Christian, I still sense there is something other, I am just reluctant to label and package that 'otherness.' I feel like I spent to much of my life doing that wrongly doing a diservice to "God" (whoever that is!), others and myself. I think I come across as ignorant about "spiritual" or maybe even jaded. Really, I just want to be careful. I play around and call myself an "infidel" or "heathen," but that's really just a starting point of reference. It's so easy for us to presume on each other based on the labels we give and take, I work at not doing that. Regardless of my self label, I don't disregard what you, u-dog or elcharrom are saying.
u-dog
08-09-2007, 09:30 AM
Paul,
I HAVE heard and do respect what you have said about your spiritual journey out of fundamentalism and your unwillingness to label yourself a Christian or to claim that you "know" that there is a God. I get all of that and I believe you.
But what I observe is that surrounding all of that is a profound (if new) love and respect for yourself and your agency in the world as well as a profound love and respect for God. It seems, to the outside observer, as though your reluctance to affirm the existence of God is more about a reluctance to presume upon his actual being any further than it is about "doubt" as such. I see a man who is not emerging FROM his faith but one who is going deeper into it than he has ever gone before.
You are SOOOOOO still a Christian... likely more of one than ever you were before. Soon you will be as profoundly a Christian as Zerbie is... she who has never read the Bible and has rarely darkened the door of a Church is one of the truest Christians I have ever encountered. It's about the transforming Spirit of Christ ... not about the name.
Please don't argue with me about this!! I'm right. and thats all there is to it. One day you will look back and realize just how right I am. :rolleyes:
elcharrom
08-09-2007, 11:00 AM
Hi Elcharrom,
Sorry to take so long to respond to you, I'm not ignoring you...I have to write in snatches, I do this at work.
I understand the idea that "God is the spirit." Where I step back and become tentative (not saying you or u-dog is wrong, just looking at it) is with the "variations of the understanding of God affect how we believe we should follow him" part of the equation. That's where our mind and emotions come in, it seems to me, and also where the divisions come in. If God is one, it would follow that God's followers also have the opportunity to be one. The devil is in the details, i.e., the "variations of the understanding of God." Simply put, if "walking by the spirit" is a matter of getting silent and listening with the guarantee that if we do that God will lead, then anyone should be able to do that. I don't think say, Ted Haggard, is any less convinced that he is doing this than Mel White...but they come to very different conclusions about being gay (for instance) and each uses the bible to back it up as well. So, you have nuts like me questioning the method and intricacies of being spiritual cause it seems they both can't be right.
You, like many, take the approach of listening to what both sides have to say, read the bible, (i.e., "I take every bit into consideration "). Then you "ask God, is it true?" My question always goes back to are we being "still" or just stiller than usual? Or to put it another way, how much are we really able to separate from our own ideas and feelings, that what we get is really what God thinks and feels. How do we know we are hearing God? See, someone has to be wrong, maybe both, because God wouldn't tell you gay is okay, and tell Ted Haggard gay is bad. Who's not hearing right and why? How do we, for lack of better words, proof that? Well, in bible times the proof that God was on your side came in the form of a miracle or sign from God. In the absence of as sign from the "Spirit", people rely on reason or emotion to support their beliefs.
I know this is going to leave you with more questions than answers, but I know God is speaking to me, through my experiences, through my focus on him, and again, as I go into life more and more I might come to a different answer, I might not, but I truly feel God has spoken to me in my prayers, I get what you are saying that maybe it isnt us talking to God but maybe hearing something we wanna hear because of what we feel, but I assure you Paul, I would die defending my belief because I know that he has spoken to me and has reached out to me as he has before.
Zerbie
08-09-2007, 11:10 AM
Paul,
I HAVE heard and do respect what you have said about your spiritual journey out of fundamentalism and your unwillingness to label yourself a Christian or to claim that you "know" that there is a God. I get all of that and I believe you.
But what I observe is that surrounding all of that is a profound (if new) love and respect for yourself and your agency in the world as well as a profound love and respect for God. It seems, to the outside observer, as though your reluctance to affirm the existence of God is more about a reluctance to presume upon his actual being any further than it is about "doubt" as such. I see a man who is not emerging FROM his faith but one who is going deeper into it than he has ever gone before.
Oh goodness yes! Dearest Paul, you are on the way! You see, we *have* to examine our ideas. We must examine them for truth - and we also must go beyond ideas in order to learn about that truth. An idea is just a thought. Therefore an "idea" about God is not God, and that seems to relate somewhat to your concern - the most pressing concern there is: IS what I am experiencing from the Divine, or is it a thought in my mind? The terrifying thing is that there simply IS no scientific proof that can discern the one from the other. I understand your concern, it is absolutely serious, the very heart of importance. I work on it too, and have found that the description in my post above (about waves and stillness) is the only reliable test (that I've found).
You are SOOOOOO still a Christian... likely more of one than ever you were before. Soon you will be as profoundly a Christian as Zerbie is... she who has never read the Bible and has rarely darkened the door of a Church is one of the truest Christians I have ever encountered.
(melt) :o :love:
It's about the transforming Spirit of Christ ... not about the name.
Oh yes. Lip worship without inner worship is meaningless.
Please don't argue with me about this!! I'm right. and thats all there is to it. One day you will look back and realize just how right I am. :rolleyes:
Well, maybe *this* time you are. :p ;)
Zerbie
08-09-2007, 11:19 AM
Hi Zerbie,
I tend to go overboard with clarification on where I'm coming from. I have seen to many misunderstandings in cyberworld since elements of communication like tone and facial expression are missing. Thanks for your patience.
"That's what I thought. That's why I said "of course," to see what your thoughts are on the subject. Especially since it meant enough to you to bring it up by starting this thread. Did you think I was being sarcastic? I wanted to invite you to share whatever it is. I've loved having you here on the forum and I always look forward to your insights. "
Zerbie, I cannot imagine you being "sarcastic." I have never witnessed you being that way with anyone. What I was thinking/feeling was the opposite: i.e., that you were being your usual thoughtful and caring self showing interest in another person (me in this case, but caring is a pattern with you:)) That's why I did the 'embarassed' emoticon, because I thought you might think I was fishing for an opportunity to express my thoughts to an interested party. That is not beyond me :o, but in this case it was an academic question. I wasn't sure, given your clarifications, if anyone (not just you, though I was responding to you) was really interested in a former fundamental Christians views on walking in the spirit. Why would you/they be? Especially since I no longer identify as "fundamental Christian." Well, I figure you would be, not so much because you are fascinated by the narrow topic, but because you care about the presenter? thank you. and I will continue to ramble on if you have interest, but hey, I care about you too and am not interested in boring you...if I can help it. soooo
Oh my goodness gracious! Paul, if I may: you are over-thinking this.
You offered to share, someone said "Yes, of course!" If you are comfortable sharing your experience, then by all means do.
Btw: I care about the presenter (you,) AND I expect that what you will share will be interesting and enlightening. The insights you've attained from your experiences so far have been deep and important ones. I'm always interested in what you are going to say, because I expect to learn a good deal from you.
BTW, I am interested in your chanting sanskrit. Why do you do it? How did you come to that place? What do you derive from the practice? I am interested in your ideas of spiritual, "God." While I no longer identify as a fundamental Christian, I still sense there is something other, I am just reluctant to label and package that 'otherness.' I feel like I spent to much of my life doing that wrongly doing a diservice to "God" (whoever that is!), others and myself. I think I come across as ignorant about "spiritual" or maybe even jaded. .
No, you don't at all. You've no idea how "off" that assessment is!
As to the Sanskrit prayers, let's move to PM.
u-dog
08-09-2007, 12:02 PM
I know this is going to leave you with more questions than answers, but I know God is speaking to me, through my experiences, through my focus on him, and again, as I go into life more and more I might come to a different answer, I might not, but I truly feel God has spoken to me in my prayers, I get what you are saying that maybe it isnt us talking to God but maybe hearing something we wanna hear because of what we feel, but I assure you Paul, I would die defending my belief because I know that he has spoken to me and has reached out to me as he has before.
The important point that Shika (ok?) is making here is an important one. The life with God is RADICALLY SUBJECTIVE. The only info available to us is what we recieve through our experience. You WANT there to be a more objective componant to it. That desire is the leftover fundamentalist in you. They WANT that and IMAGINE that they have it in the Bible. They don't. you can't either. To go back to my other metaphor. You are either swimming in the ocean or you are NOT swimming in the ocean. If you aren't swimming in it... you can't "know" the ocean. If you ARE swimming in it... you know it. There ARE no objective checks and balances ... OTHER THAN HUMILITY. Humility is key. Without it you will start killing people because you are sure God told you to.
Zerbie,
"Oh my goodness gracious! Paul, if I may: you are over-thinking this.
You offered to share, someone said "Yes, of course!" If you are comfortable sharing your experience, then by all means do. "
:lol:, yes no doubt. Your beginning to see what you're dealing with in me. I grew up in a non communicating family, my friends were books from an early age. I had to figure out where the people in my life were coming from, so I became a 'mind reader.' Well, of course I couldn't read minds but became an oversensitive listener...which is a generous way of saying I read between the lines whether they exist or not. I know this about me, so I come right out and say what I'm thinking and some people just look at me like I'm nuts, others just say "you are over-thinking this." Okay, I think I have it now. I'm a little obsessed with seeing things as they are, and a little paranoid of my abilities to do that.
Okay, here was my last position as a Christian, and truth be known, I'm still kinda hung up on it as a nony. Walking by the spirit requires faith, because as you point out, " IS what I am experiencing from the Divine, or is it a thought in my mind? The terrifying thing is that there simply IS no scientific proof that can discern the one from the other." "...without faith it is impossible to please God, those who come to God must believe that God is and that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek God." Yet the ability to "believe" there is a God is a gift from God. "by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift from God..." So, there is this "substance" called faith that enables us to believe that God is. How do I figure out what this God would have me do, i.e., walk (live?) by the spirit? Not just an occassional thing, but always?
Life presents us with so many questions, ways to go from moment by moment. I cannot do it. I am dependent on God. The more I am aware of that, both in frequency and extent, the more I doubt myself, the better I can 'follow' God.
In my mind this is walking by the spirit beautifully and succintly put in a nutshell: "trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding [rather] in all your ways acknowledge God and God will direct your steps." If I trust in God with all my heart then I am trusting that God is capable of leading me whether I am aware of it, whether I 'know' it or not. "Knowing" is seeing, but the "righteous walk by faith, not by sight.
Here's a funny aside. I had a goal of being out of debt, the final debt left was a mortgage. So several years ago I would by houses that no one else wanted, fix them myself while living in them, then sell it drilling the profit into the next house. I did this several times till I had the money to build a house debt free, which I did two years ago. (Understand, that two years ago I still considered myself Christian, as does my wife still). Both my wife and myself would pray about everything we did, looking for guidance from God, but we would always see things differently. So there have been many times when I would say: "okay, let's let God show us." The last time I did this was when I bought the 32 acres that our house now rests on. So, we prayed together asking God to direct, and then we flipped a coin. You see, I really believed in a God who would lead us, but it was obvious that one of us wasn't getting it. :eek: I cannot do that in good conscience all the time, because I believe God wants to be more subtle than that, but you see my primary reservation in walking by the spirit?
Everything I do effects someone else. There's nothing like marriage to try the notion of walking by the spirit. Fundamental Christianity gets around this by, usually, being sexist. Oh sure the man can talk with his wife, but he gets to make all the decisions. I think it's pretty doable to walk by the spirit when your alone, it's where there are two or more gathered in Jesus name when all the divisions occur.
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