Bible study

[sailaway58]

I have an idea but I want some feed back from some of you. I don't know if I really want to do this but I am thinking it through right now.
I have been thinking about hosting a bible study group that reaches out or includes those in our area from the GLBT community. From what I see here most bible studies I have lead would apply to anyone with a desire to walk closer in faith. I don't really want to only focus on GLBT issues although I think it would be natural to discuss it sometimes.
The pamphlet "What the bible says about Homosexuality" I thought I would as a basic explanation of my view on the matter. We are a small town and have a small Gay community that for the most part is ignored.
I know one guy that I could talk to and he would probably help me. (yes, he's Gay)
To do this I want it done through the umbrella of our church to avoid the lack of accountability. It might be a hard sell but at this point I have broken the ice with our pastors. They have no idea where I want to take the discussion but I am stepping softly. I got them to agree that as a church we should make sure EVERYONE is welcome. This may seem like a small step but it is the first in a few to come.
FYI we are a new church that is one year old with an attendance of about 350. There have been over 100 new professions of faith in this time. We are very casual but serious about faith. As we are becoming ourselves I believe we have a unique opportunity to allow GLBT to be a part of who we are.
I carry a little clout which makes people take my opinions seriously but it will take the spirit of God to blend these ideas.
I don't want to reach to Gay Christians but to help our gay Christian community bring their friends estranged from the church to a rest and fullness in Gods love.
Churches are fragile and I don't want to push us into a mess so I am willing to move slowly as long as I am moving forward.
Remember I am brainstorming now.
Got any ideas?

[Zerbie]

Good, good brainstorming. Obviously you need to keep reflecting on details and preparing, if indeed you want to advertize a gay-affirming inclusive Bible study. Clearly, if you are using the church edifice or your connection with the church to reach out about your Bible study, you will want them to be comfortable with the interpretations you will be discussing. So keep communicating with the pastors as you are doing. I say be completely open about what you want this study to comprise and what stance you will take as facilitator.

Another thing, obviously you will want to be sure this is something you really want to do before you commit to doing it. My guess is that you want to be sure that whatever the study turns out to look like, it's something that you can be pleased and proud to be a part of - not some sort of half-way there compromise that leaves you unfulfilled. Then I imagine you would not want to do it.

It's a good idea. It sounds like you simply need to work out the details step by step and see if all the essentials will come together.

[Daniel]

Sailaway-

I have the sense from reading your message that there is some trepidation on your part.

I don't want to reach to Gay Christians but to help our gay Christian community bring their friends estranged from the church to a rest and fullness in Gods love.

Understandable, of course: no one wants to be a lightening rod in their community.

I think you need to prepare yourself for the inevitability of 'reaching' gay christians. There are undoubtedly among you already. ;) Start a group with even an oblique message of affirmation towards gay persons and you are going to have people revealing themselves to you.

Are you ready to deal with this?

[BenL]

Sailaway,

Great idea. I can tell by what you have said that you have thought about it quite a bit. Here are a few things I have encountered in other contexts that may have a bearing on how you proceed.

First, glbt people need to be sure that they are in a safe place if they are going to be honest with God and with you and your colleagues. Churches are fraught with peril for gay folks. They have been hurt at the hands of the church, and many of them will be reluctant to step into a church situation, even off campus.

Second, there should be no strings attached to your invitation. People should be free to leave without feeling judged if they don't find the bible study is helping them. Tell them that the door is always open, but don't push too hard. You and your fellow church people have a vision of faith and how it translates to 21st century American life. Don't push your version of reality onto glbt seekers. If you trust in the power of the Spirit, you will not be afraid to have people mine the depths of Scripture for what they need now.

Third, be prepared to learn from the people you have set out to teach. Many of their faiths have been tested dearly by coming to terms with their same-sex attraction or gender identity issues. Be open to their pains and their joys. Rather than seeing sinners, look for Christ in you glbt sisters and brothers, and you may be surprised to find him where you never expected to.

Fourth, realize that the questions people ask are often much more important than the answers you want to hear. Learn to discern the struggle and the process in the question, and silently ask God to bless it.

Fifth, don't slam people with the Bible that you have invited them to study with you. To me, bible study is not about someone telling me what the scipture says, but someone working with me to hear the word. Make sure your communications are two-way and not one-sided.

All right, I've gone on long enough. You get the idea.

[Pablo Rafael]

Tim,

I think you have a great idea. So often I see LGBT individuals who have abandoned the faith because they think that the church (and God?) has rejected them. A Bible study is a great idea. I believe that the Holy Spirit works through the Word of God.

Ben has a good point about not "slamming people with the Bible". Personally I dislike Bible studies where people lecture me and inform me. I like a sharing of thougts and discoveries among equals. LGBT individuals have often had the Bible used against them as a weapon rather than a source of hope.

One study I was in that was very effective (The method has a name I forget it. Scripture something) had one person divide the book of the Bible to be studied up into sections of a couple of chapters long. Each person took the next two weeks, studied, searched and meditated on those chapters. Then we came together and shared our thoughts, impressions, discoveries. No one was allowed to be right; no one wrong. Then everyone asked the group to pray for them about one issue for the next two weeks. Two weeks was a good interval. People often seem reluctant to commit to every week, and once a month isn't enough. This kind of group doesn't need a leader, just an organizer. (This could work here online too, I think.) We met at homes. 12 was the largest size group allowed.

Being attached to a church would give legitimacy to the group, also it has a tendency to alienate those from other churches. Sometimes I think the "non-church" Bible studies have an advantage that people from outside the church will join. Also sometimes in a study attached to a church (Lutheran or Catholic in my experience) people feel compelled to present official doctrine and discourage those with differing viewpoints. I don't mean to sound negative about associating with a church, but there are some advantages in not doing it as well.

Let us know how it goes.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Gennee]

Sailaway, I think this is a wonderful idea. There are many GLBT people who want to exercise and express their faith. Like BenL and Pablo say, the bible is used as a weapon against them instead of being a book of hope and life. Go for it, Sailaway. God bless.

Gennee

:):love::pray:

[wmanion]

Sailaway,
I think a Bible study for the GLBT community would be great. I also think having the umbrella of the church would also be great. However, I do have one question. What is your church's official stance on Homosexuality? If the church's stance of homosexuality is negative, then you may have a lot to overcome. You may also have to educate the church and hopefully, they will be accepting.

Bill

[sailaway58]

I am going to my moms for dinner tonight but will comment on a few questions later.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[sailaway58]

Thanks everyone. I have know idea what I am going to do but I have a restlessness in my heart that I can't explain. Not just about this but in my own spiritual walk I feel stagnant, board and alone.
I would like to address some of the comments which will help me more than anyone to process my thoughts and feelings.
You realize that Gay people may be the only friends I have if I pursue this!
I am using this Study now http://www.h2ojourney.com/ and am thinking I would use it for the new one. It allows me to be a facilitator rather than an expert of which I am not... about anything :)

Good, good brainstorming. Obviously you need to keep reflecting on details and preparing, if indeed you want to advertise a gay-affirming inclusive Bible study. Clearly, if you are using the church edifice or your connection with the church to reach out about your Bible study, you will want them to be comfortable with the interpretations you will be discussing. So keep communicating with the pastors as you are doing. I say be completely open about what you want this study to comprise and what stance you will take as facilitator.

Another thing, obviously you will want to be sure this is something you really want to do before you commit to doing it. My guess is that you want to be sure that whatever the study turns out to look like, it's something that you can be pleased and proud to be a part of - not some sort of half-way there compromise that leaves you unfulfilled. Then I imagine you would not want to do it.

It's a good idea. It sounds like you simply need to work out the details step by step and see if all the essentials will come together.
Thanks Zerbie, you describe the process I find myself beginning. I have a way to go down the road before anything will materialize if it does. This will be a hard sell and one that will need calculated steps to accomplish.

Sailaway-

I have the sense from reading your message that there is some trepidation on your part.
Understatement of the week ;)


Understandable, of course: no one wants to be a lightening rod in their community.

I think you need to prepare yourself for the inevitability of 'reaching' gay christians. There are undoubtedly among you already. ;) Start a group with even an oblique message of affirmation towards gay persons and you are going to have people revealing themselves to you.

Are you ready to deal with this?
It is not that I don't want to reach gay Christians, I want them and will really need them but my purpose (I think) is to create a place safe for existing Christians to include friends that are outside of the church. I also don't see this as a "Gay Only" group but a place where people like me can fellowship and get to the place where the first question isn't is he/she Gay? but more like normal conversation and thoughts.

Sailaway,

Great idea. I can tell by what you have said that you have thought about it quite a bit. Here are a few things I have encountered in other contexts that may have a bearing on how you proceed.

First, glbt people need to be sure that they are in a safe place if they are going to be honest with God and with you and your colleagues. Churches are fraught with peril for gay folks. They have been hurt at the hands of the church, and many of them will be reluctant to step into a church situation, even off campus.
This is what scares me the most because I am not sure today I would subject a GLBT person to our church even though we are very open and friendly. I have some ground work ahead of me. I am not here to experiment with some else's life to pursue my view,
Second, there should be no strings attached to your invitation. People should be free to leave without feeling judged if they don't find the bible study is helping them. Tell them that the door is always open, but don't push too hard.That is the approch I use for anyone You and your fellow church people have a vision of faith and how it translates to 21st century American life. Don't push your version of reality onto glbt seekers. If you trust in the power of the Spirit, you will not be afraid to have people mine the depths of Scripture for what they need now.

Third, be prepared to learn from the people you have set out to teach. Many of their faiths have been tested dearly by coming to terms with their same-sex attraction or gender identity issues. Be open to their pains and their joys. Rather than seeing sinners, look for Christ in you glbt sisters and brothers, and you may be surprised to find him where you never expected to.That is already happening to me at soulforce. I am thrilled as I read through the threads to find the language used or discernment used is common to my upbringing and views. You make a great point.

Fourth, realize that the questions people ask are often much more important than the answers you want to hear. Learn to discern the struggle and the process in the question, and silently ask God to bless it.

Fifth, don't slam people with the Bible that you have invited them to study with you. :lol: You don't know me but that will be the last thing anyone has to worry about. but point well taken.
To me, bible study is not about someone telling me what the scipture says, but someone working with me to hear the word. Make sure your communications are two-way and not one-sided.
All right, I've gone on long enough. You get the idea.

Tim,

I think you have a great idea. So often I see LGBT individuals who have abandoned the faith because they think that the church (and God?) has rejected them. A Bible study is a great idea. I believe that the Holy Spirit works through the Word of God.

Ben has a good point about not "slamming people with the Bible". Personally I dislike Bible studies where people lecture me and inform me. I like a sharing of thougts and discoveries among equals. LGBT individuals have often had the Bible used against them as a weapon rather than a source of hope.

One study I was in that was very effective (The method has a name I forget it. Scripture something) had one person divide the book of the Bible to be studied up into sections of a couple of chapters long. Each person took the next two weeks, studied, searched and meditated on those chapters. Then we came together and shared our thoughts, impressions, discoveries. No one was allowed to be right; no one wrong. I agree wit this method. Then everyone asked the group to pray for them about one issue for the next two weeks. Two weeks was a good interval. People often seem reluctant to commit to every week, and once a month isn't enough. This kind of group doesn't need a leader, just an organizer. (This could work here online too, I think.) We met at homes. 12 was the largest size group allowed.

Being attached to a church would give legitimacy to the group, also it has a tendency to alienate those from other churches. Sometimes I think the "non-church" Bible studies have an advantage that people from outside the church will join. Also sometimes in a study attached to a church (Lutheran or Catholic in my experience) people feel compelled to present official doctrine and discourage those with differing viewpoints. I don't mean to sound negative about associating with a church, but there are some advantages in not doing it as well. The only thing I really want from my church is their understanding why I believe it is important and assurance that if someone from the GLBT community particularly a couple, came to our church they would be received, accepted and respected just like anyone else.

Let us know how it goes.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Sailaway, I think this is a wonderful idea. There are many GLBT people who want to exercise and express their faith. Like BenL and Pablo say, the bible is used as a weapon against them instead of being a book of hope and life. Go for it, Sailaway. God bless.

Gennee
Thank you
:):love::pray:

Sailaway,
I think a Bible study for the GLBT community would be great. I also think having the umbrella of the church would also be great. However, I do have one question. What is your church's official stance on Homosexuality? If the church's stance of homosexuality is negative, then you may have a lot to overcome. You may also have to educate the church and hopefully, they will be accepting.
The Church as a denomination considers homosexuality a sin. I don't think that will change in my lifetime. Even those that believe it is a sin have a responsibility to love others no matter what the sin or point of contention. This is what I am looking for, an environment created in our church where others are loved regardless of our disagreements. This is going to take some time. Well, it is like that now but we really haven't been challenged.

Bill

Thanks again everyone.

[Zerbie]

You realize that Gay people may be the only friends I have if I pursue this!

.

Not at all! At least, that has not been my experience. The more vocal and visible I become on these matters, the more people I meet in everyday life of ALL places on the sexuality continuum who thoroughly and utterly agree that gay individuals and their covenanted relationships deserve to be included, respected, recognized, and treated with full dignity in all realms of life.

I meet a great many straight people who are quick to tell me they support my efforts in gay activism.

I guess it depends upon your surroundings though. Hubby likes to remind me that we run with a particularly gay-affirming crowd, and that the rest of the world is not so affirming.

Yet, if you DO choose to become visible as affirming LGBT persons, you will start meeting others who do, and/or they will let their own position be known to you.

I don't think there's a Seven Straight Nights event in your area, alas - because I would love to suggest hooking in with the straight folks involved in that and start making new acquaintances. Well, who knows if someone in your area might not step forward to plan an event, so check out the site just in case: www.sevenstraightnights.org.

But I certainly think one of the first things you need to do, perhaps THE first, is to set up your own cheering squad: a group of supportive people to cheer YOU on for the work you envision doing. They can be your moral/emotional support, and they can even help you brainstorm ways to get this Bible study off and running. Recruit some similarly-minded straight friends to cheer you on, and maybe one or two gay people you know 3D who can give your their personal take on your denomination, as individuals. That will get you thinking through many of the nitty-gritty details.

One caution: do NOT take on more than you can chew. Coming out in support of gay people can feel threatening in an environment where anti-gay views are common. I've hung out with gay friends since I was 12, and have been an activist for the past 12 years and I *still* get nervous about it in certain environments - last fall a woman got in my face on a streetcorner and screamed at me and called me "filth" because I campaigned against the "marriage" amendment. I don't want you to feel overwhelmed. You're still very much just getting used to the idea of affirmation yourself - it might be too soon to have your precious new discoveries vehemently challenged. It may hurt your heart to have that happen when your ideas are still so young.

[sailaway58]

Not at all! At least, that has not been my experience. The more vocal and visible I become on these matters, the more people I meet in everyday life of ALL places on the sexuality continuum who thoroughly and utterly agree that gay individuals and their covenanted relationships deserve to be included, respected, recognized, and treated with full dignity in all realms of life.

I meet a great many straight people who are quick to tell me they support my efforts in gay activism.

I guess it depends upon your surroundings though. Hubby likes to remind me that we run with a particularly gay-affirming crowd, and that the rest of the world is not so affirming.

Yet, if you DO choose to become visible as affirming LGBT persons, you will start meeting others who do, and/or they will let their own position be known to you.

I don't think there's a Seven Straight Nights event in your area, alas - because I would love to suggest hooking in with the straight folks involved in that and start making new acquaintances. Well, who knows if someone in your area might not step forward to plan an event, so check out the site just in case: www.sevenstraightnights.org.

But I certainly think one of the first things you need to do, perhaps THE first, is to set up your own cheering squad: a group of supportive people to cheer YOU on for the work you envision doing. They can be your moral/emotional support, and they can even help you brainstorm ways to get this Bible study off and running. Recruit some similarly-minded straight friends to cheer you on, and maybe one or two gay people you know 3D who can give your their personal take on your denomination, as individuals. That will get you thinking through many of the nitty-gritty details.

One caution: do NOT take on more than you can chew. Coming out in support of gay people can feel threatening in an environment where anti-gay views are common. I've hung out with gay friends since I was 12, and have been an activist for the past 12 years and I *still* get nervous about it in certain environments - last fall a woman got in my face on a streetcorner and screamed at me and called me "filth" because I campaigned against the "marriage" amendment. I don't want you to feel overwhelmed. You're still very much just getting used to the idea of affirmation yourself - it might be too soon to have your precious new discoveries vehemently challenged. It may hurt your heart to have that happen when your ideas are still so young.
I think you are right and although here it may look like I am moving forward at a quick pace I am moving slower in 3D. Honestly even thought I have believed for a long time now that orientation for most is not a choice, not very long ago I really just didn't care about this issue. If I said something in support of gay marriage or homosexuality in the past it was as much for stirring the pot as they say as anything I really cared about.
I am not ready to stand on a street corner and I really hate hugging guys. I seldom ever hugged my dad I sure don't want to hug male friends. ;)
Also in all this my wife has to be on board and we haven't talked about all I am thinking of. We will and she is supportive of these issues.

[sailaway58]

I notice that there are some teens here. Normally I would not exclude a teen from a study. The question is should I treat this differently? I mean I cold have angry parents ready to shoot me even if they had no child attending, and preachers will come out of the woodwork after me if one of their youth were involved.

[Daniel]

I notice that there are some teens here. Normally I would not exclude a teen from a study. The question is should I treat this differently? I mean I cold have angry parents ready to shoot me even if they had no child attending, and preachers will come out of the woodwork after me if one of their youth were involved.


Just off the top of my head here, but this is one of the problems working with kids. Gay people can be cagey of them too: they don't want to be accused of being predatory. And straight folk don't want to get caught in some weird cross-fire. Understandable. Between these two 'fears', gay teens can be left out in the cold- if you catch my drift. Which is a crying shame, because kids, more than anyone, need some nurturing. Being a teenager is a pretty lonely proposition anyway. And being a gay kid can be downright isolating.

Maybe the way to proceed here is to be 'normal'. I mean, if gay people can be themselves, why can't you? And being yourself- from what you say- means being inclusive.

My take is that if you are comforatble inside and out with gay folks, others- in time- will be too. Leaders set the tone after all.

[keltic63]

I notice that there are some teens here. Normally I would not exclude a teen from a study. The question is should I treat this differently? I mean I cold have angry parents ready to shoot me even if they had no child attending, and preachers will come out of the woodwork after me if one of their youth were involved.

Just off the top of my head here, but this is one of the problems working with kids. Gay people can be cagey of them too: they don't want to be accused of being predatory. And straight folk don't want to get caught in some weird cross-fire. Understandable. Between these two 'fears', gay teens can be left out in the cold- if you catch my drift. Which is a crying shame, because kids, more than anyone, need some nurturing. Being a teenager is a pretty lonely proposition anyway. And being a gay kid can be downright isolating.

Maybe the way to proceed here is to be 'normal'. I mean, if gay people can be themselves, why can't you? And being yourself- from what you say- means being inclusive.

My take is that if you are comforatble inside and out with gay folks, others- in time- will be too. Leaders set the tone after all.


the kids are most likely way ahead of you as far as being inclusive. I've told this story here already, but I'll tell it again. I was working on a musical last winter, in community theater. One of the guys in the show attended school with my son. he is obviously gay, very flamboyant, and a bit irritating. I asked my son about the guy, and his reaction was that the guy in question was indeed irritating. I asked my son "because he's gay?" and my son's response was "NO. He's irritating" orientation just doesn't seem to enter the equation, except when someone acknowledges their own orientation as different from the "mean" or average hetero. The kids seem to honor those who can come out at that age. I'm seeing it in our little community, I expect that the same is happening in other places.

of course, as the leader, you can always act shocked and appalled at someone's lack of love for an "outsider". ;) Good Samaritan, Peter and Cornelius, and all that.....

[tdogg]

I sort of see it like Pablo, sometimes getting the church involved creates more problems. But, it seems as though you want to do this 'through' your church and not independently. So, you do need to know where your pastor stands on what you want to do. If you don't have the church/pastor's approval, then it might not end up being what you envision.

Yes, be ready to have people come out to you, and to make them feel safe. That is the most important thing with people coming out at first. Safe, cared for, valid.

Keep an open mind, AND open heart. The learning will definitely go both ways. Gay issues will come up, even if it's not necessary a 'gay' bible study. Biblical issues with come up also.

Set groundrules right away. Respect, compassion, love. Don't judge. Be prepared to learn. Everyone gets a chance to share. Be prepared to sometimes mediate and get things back on track, gently and lovingly but firmly. Be prepared for "Plan B" if things get off track but it's a good thing.

Sounds like you are still in the brainstorming phase like you say, so it will still require much thought and prayer on your end. Perhaps some meditation for you? Really seek out what you envision happening and why? Good luck to you! I'll be praying for some guidance....

Ok, one more thing - stand up for what you believe is right even if your church is against it. Don't compromise what is in your heart if you know it's the right thing.

[BrentRichards]

Nothing profound to add to all of this good stuff, except to say, Sailaway, that you're great! Thank you for being who you are!

[sailaway58]

Every Thursday morning I have breakfast with my pastors and another guy that attends our church. We are under the umbrella of our parent church so we currently have no church board which is really nice. Anyway the four of us discuss current issues, brainstorm, yada, yada, yada.
So as we were talking about effective ministry I said I had a idea for a study group. I said I would like to have a group that is GLBT friendly... a moment of silence then one said, "I have no problem with that".
My wife and I are moving ahead. Our first step is contacting a Christian couple we have been friends with for years that have two gay sons and feel them out for participation. They have struggled with their sons "choices" so I am not sure where they currently stand on the comfortability issue. They are great people though and could be instrumental in creating an atmosphere of affirmation.
We are in no hurry but want to establish a core group we trust in this setting.

[BenL]

My wife and I are moving ahead. Our first step is contacting a Christian couple we have been friends with for years that have two gay sons and feel them out for participation. They have struggled with their sons "choices" so I am not sure where they currently stand on the comfortability issue. They are great people though and could be instrumental in creating an atmosphere of affirmation.
We are in no hurry but want to establish a core group we trust in this setting.

Wow, doors have a way of opening, don't they? This could be an opportunity for your friends to hear and heed the Spirit concerning their sons. If the children are open to it, there might also be reconciliation in the offing. What a beautiful thought!

I wish I could participate, Sailaway, but IN is too far a commute from MA. The Episcopal Church may seem a far cry from your gathering, but it really isn't. Scripture still speaks with an authority that overrides all the rest of the human structure. And discerning as a community what the Bible has to say to us is still a primary role of the church, I believe.

Good luck. Go gently. There has a been a lot of hurt on all sides of this question. Since I can't be there, I will keep your efforts in prayer.

[sailaway58]

Today is a tough day for me. Apparently when it was suggested that they had no problem with my Idea for a Bible study they hadn't realized the depth of my depravity. I was called in this morning to discuss the perimeters of the study.
I had suggested a while back they take a look at this site (Soulforce) if they were interested in what I had been reading and that this site for the most part is a good representation of the views I was, am, have formed.
Lon story short I am on my own. That doesn't surprise me, the only thing that cut me was when I was told I had been deceived by Satan and that Satan wanted to use this / me to destroy the church.
I don't mind not agreeing but I can't live with being the voice of Satan.
I stand with you and for you but this is just a web site and I could walk away, get in line and never bring this topic up again. I don't even have a gay person in my family.
I was told I could not share my views in any setting that is under the Church umbrella.
There is much more to say but basically I gave them the pamphlet What the Bible says and doesn't say about Homosexuality and said that while I don't agree with everything in the pamphlet it best represented my personal view and I could not go back to a view that I once had which was theirs and that the Church is wrong about this issue.
It's complicated but I am alone.
I am not a tool of Satan.
It is going to take me some time to get over this.

[BrentRichards]

Today is a tough day for me. Apparently when it was suggested that they had no problem with my Idea for a Bible study they hadn't realized the depth of my depravity. I was called in this morning to discuss the perimeters of the study.
I had suggested a while back they take a look at this site (Soulforce) if they were interested in what I had been reading and that this site for the most part is a good representation of the views I was, am, have formed.
Lon story short I am on my own. That doesn't surprise me, the only thing that cut me was when I was told I had been deceived by Satan and that Satan wanted to use this / me to destroy the church.
I don't mind not agreeing but I can't live with being the voice of Satan.
I stand with you and for you but this is just a web site and I could walk away, get in line and never bring this topic up again. I don't even have a gay person in my family.
I was told I could not share my views in any setting that is under the Church umbrella.
There is much more to say but basically I gave them the pamphlet What the Bible says and doesn't say about Homosexuality and said that while I don't agree with everything in the pamphlet it best represented my personal view and I could not go back to a view that I once had which was theirs and that the Church is wrong about this issue.
It's complicated but I am alone.
I am not a tool of Satan.
It is going to take me some time to get over this.

Jerks. Sorry, but that's all there is. I know, because I was one. Tool of Satan my ***! Ironically, if anyone in the situation is being a "tool" (double entendre intended), it's them ... division, strife, hatred, legalism ... all stomp on the magnificent grace of God and serve to HINDER the Kingdom rather than to FURTHER it. Thank you for being a prophet ... remember how they treated Jeremiah!

On top of it all, my skin crawls at these smarmy "back room" meetings (which I've seen) ... we'll all be nice and loving and smile at each other in public, but when the pastor's study door closes, the gloves are off!

I'm so sorry you've experienced this, and I'm particularly sorry that the church acts like this in Christ's name. We have met the enemy and it is us.

[BrentRichards]

There is much more to say but basically I gave them the pamphlet What the Bible says and doesn't say about Homosexuality and said that while I don't agree with everything in the pamphlet it best represented my personal view and I could not go back to a view that I once had which was theirs and that the Church is wrong about this issue.

Another critical point here: You are right, you can never turn back from a BIGGER understanding of grace, can you? We have such a small idea of God, and when we glimpse just a little more, it changes us forever ...

People walked away from Jesus because they DIDN'T understand. Once they understood, they COULDN'T walk away: "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68)

[u-dog]

Tim,

I don't have a lot to say here, other than that I am not surprised. I'm sorry that this has happened to you and I appreciate and admire your faithfulness to people (and to God) when it is not in your obvious self interest. God bless you. :love::pray:

[Zerbie]

Oh, our dear Sailor, I am so sorry. :'(:love::'(:love:

I'm so sorry that happened to you.

How arbitrary it is. All one has to do is reveal a belief in God's inclusive love and. . . this kind of thing can happen. It's an unbelievable shock when it happens to you.

I can't imagine all the various things you must be processing right now, having to cope with being told by your religious community that you, of all people, are deceived of an evil being that is using you to destroy their church. I can imagine that there is all kind of betrayal and disbelief that you may be feeling.

You may be alone in 3D *for the MOMENT* but you are not alone for real. You are in auspicious company. Who was maligned and persecuted for their love and their faith in love? Martin Luther King Jr was. Gandhi was. Most important example to you as a Christian, Jesus was.

You are not without a community. It may be "virtual" for the moment. But there are many, many other straight people in this world who stand for fairness, justice, kindness, and believe that God's love does not discriminate against gays.

Now might be a good time for you to read the testimonies of a variety of straight people who have stepped up to work on Soulforce's fall action, Seven Straight Nights. Go to the website and read what those straight leaders have to say about why they are standing up for LGBTs. I think it might bolster your spirits to see you have much fine company.

www.sevenstraightnights.org
You will find their statements by clicking on each city name.

I'm sorry for the tremendous blow you experienced this morning.

One thing it illustrates is how arbitrary the discrimination is: it can even be levied against you. All you did was reveal the faith in your heart and share your process with people you trusted and suddenly they treated you as "other." Heartbreaking that they cannot see what they do.

:'(

[carolb]

Originally Posted by sailaway58 View Post
Today is a tough day for me. Apparently when it was suggested that they had no problem with my Idea for a Bible study they hadn't realized the depth of my depravity. I was called in this morning to discuss the perimeters of the study.
I had suggested a while back they take a look at this site (Soulforce) if they were interested in what I had been reading and that this site for the most part is a good representation of the views I was, am, have formed.
Lon story short I am on my own. That doesn't surprise me, the only thing that cut me was when I was told I had been deceived by Satan and that Satan wanted to use this / me to destroy the church.
I don't mind not agreeing but I can't live with being the voice of Satan.
I stand with you and for you but this is just a web site and I could walk away, get in line and never bring this topic up again. I don't even have a gay person in my family.
I was told I could not share my views in any setting that is under the Church umbrella.
There is much more to say but basically I gave them the pamphlet What the Bible says and doesn't say about Homosexuality and said that while I don't agree with everything in the pamphlet it best represented my personal view and I could not go back to a view that I once had which was theirs and that the Church is wrong about this issue.
It's complicated but I am alone.
I am not a tool of Satan.
It is going to take me some time to get over this.

Tim - I'm not surprised at the response. I've been getting this same reaction, but I'd not gone as far as you as to suggest a Bible study. I've had dear friends who don't give a rip how I feel about the issue. Needless to say, no longer do I consider those as my friends. I know it is hurting you too - since you have taken on something so big. Thankfully, there are those who think differently, but they aren't in my circles. Guess what? I'm moving to new circles.

[wmanion]

Sailaway,
I am so sorry you have to even go through this. One day soon, God will finally be taken out of the box that man has been so determined to put him in. One day that they will know that no book can fully describe or set out to know exactly who God is and what he wants. At least Paul admitted that we see through a mirror darkly, and he did not have the knowledge that we have been given today. When Jesus went against the religious and ministered to the lepers and outcasts he was crucified. Unfortunately, the umbrella of the church has also done this to you. How can they even insinuate that a heart as good as yours is being led by the voice of the devil? It is an outrage, and I know you hurt. I will pray for stength for you and a healing.

Bill

[sailaway58]

One friend comes out that I have known and loved he and his family since 1973.
One guy that I care enough about to force myself to really look at an issue that two years ago I wouldn't have thought twice about judging any one of you here at Soulforce or anywhere else.
I agreed that it was not likely a choice but dammit you just can't practice that kind of stuff and go to heaven. (I thought)
One guy, that I will stand beside when the church rebukes him because I know his heart, I know he is a good man that loves the Lord.
I don't know if the rest of you are worth it but I know he is, and because he is I am brought to a place of affirmation and acceptance of the GLBT community.
I cannot look back, and the hurt will be fleeting although real, I will move on and not only will I be better for it so will those that chose to go with me.
My wife is great and my children are extremely understanding, my 12 year old daughter even "gets it"
When I told them their theology didn't match reality the wall was forever built to divide.
Enough.
Tim

[Zerbie]

One friend comes out that I have known and loved he and his family since 1973.
One guy that I care enough about to force myself to really look at an issue that two years ago I wouldn't have thought twice about judging any one of you here at Soulforce or anywhere else.
I agreed that it was not likely a choice but dammit you just can't practice that kind of stuff and go to heaven. (I thought)
One guy, that I will stand beside when the church rebukes him because I know his heart, I know he is a good man that loves the Lord.
I don't know if the rest of you are worth it but I know he is, and because he is I am brought to a place of affirmation and acceptance of the GLBT community.
I cannot look back, and the hurt will be fleeting although real, I will move on and not only will I be better for it so will those that chose to go with me.
My wife is great and my children are extremely understanding, even my 12 year old daughter even "gets it"
When I told them their theology didn't match reality the wall was forever built to divide.
Enough.
Tim

I'm really proud of you.
Your friend is truly blessed to have you.

[Pablo Rafael]

Tim,

I am touched almost to tears at your words.
Straight people like you are indeed a blessing and give hope to us all.
So many people here have gone through so much more suffering than I, and I know that, though others have shown so little love to them, God's love has no limit. To me the people of the LGBT community who post here are, like your friend, priceless.

Gracias, mi amigo.

Pablo

[keltic63]

That's tough. Sorry it didn't go as you expected or wished. Now, just imagine if you had told them that you're gay.......

[BenL]

My heart's breaking. I'm just catching up on the forums. Life and work have a way of getting in the way, y'know?

What do you do? Walk away? (I was tempted to say "sail away." ;) ) Stand and witness? You'll know the right thing to do and the right time to do it. Don't tax yourself. Don't put your inner peace in jeopardy. Take your time. Pray. Breathe. Cry ... it's all right.

Jesus had it about right: Most people won't die for a friend, let alone for the marginalized. He did. And you're doing it. And for that I thank God.

We in the gay community all die these little deaths in the struggle to claim God's grace. Now you have shared that experience with us. This is not just about sex, Tim. It's about human dignity and claiming the love that God has for us. Discipleship is costly ... and rewarding.

I wish I was as fortunate as your friend to know you personally. He's one lucky guy.

[sailaway58]

That's tough. Sorry it didn't go as you expected or wished. Now, just imagine if you had told them that you're gay.......

Don't think I haven't thought about that. It is that very reason I cannot be silent.
One of the things they told me was if a person is gay to keep from sinning they must not practice it.
I'm think WTF, a celibate heterosexual is still a practicing heterosexual. If homosexuality is a sin then a celibate homosexual is still in sin. This is the barrier that is not understood.
Also no one wants to believe your stories. Who are the experts? People who live it or people who ignore it and call it a sin?
I am more angry today but I am clearly thinking. The bible study plans are not off I just need to be extra careful that I provide a safe environment for those that participate.
What I am experiencing is a good thing in the long run because when I was pushed to state what I believe I new I could not go back.
If ever there is a soulforce event in Indiana make sure I am on the agenda to sing my song!
This whole thing is strangely liberating.
I don't know if I should go to band practice tonight but I think I will.
Think I should sing the Queer Redneck song?

[Zerbie]

Don't think I haven't thought about that. It is that very reason I cannot be silent.

Also no one wants to believe your stories. Who are the experts? People who live it or people who ignore it and call it a sin?
I am more angry today but I am clearly thinking. ?

:)
I knew you would have thought of that. It's incredibly ironic that outside "experts" , "ex-gays" who are so frequently (always????) gays in denial, and straight people are the ones they listen to, but not to the gay people. Oh no, a homosexual couldn't possibly know anything about what being gay is!

When I was a tyke, I was a weird kid, one of the things I did in elementary school was sneak into the adult section of the library and into my mom's psychology textbooks and read psychiatric case studies. I read a horror story of a gay man who was having electric shock therapy and the evaluating psychiatrist cited his remark that "if only I could just marry another man there would be no more problems" as an example of the extremity of his "disease." Horrified little me, 7 years old or so, I'm shaking my head in horror musing that the "psychiatric patient" is the only sane one in the hospital.

Your experience yesterday just illustrates how arbitrary these judgments really are, Sailor. Anyway, your anger is not without good cause, and I am glad to see your sense of humor out to play.

[BrentRichards]

One of the things they told me was if a person is gay to keep from sinning they must not practice it.
I'm think WTF, a celibate heterosexual is still a practicing heterosexual. If homosexuality is a sin then a celibate homosexual is still in sin. This is the barrier that is not understood.

THANK YOU!

[tdogg]

Sailaway,

I'm sorry that you had to endure the misunderstanding of those whom you respect. Like U, I'm not surprised either. I've experienced similar reactions from my fundamental conservative relatives. They know me better than I know myself, I can't possibly know what I'm doing, and it's all because I've allowed Satan to rule my life.

At first, I felt a profound desperation to change their mind. Now I just sorta shake my head and sigh. No hope in sight for them.

YOU and GOD are the only two to really know YOU and YOUR heart. Don't let anyone take away your faith, do now allow anyone to tell you that you don't know the Lord. You'll have to do your thing without them, for now at least. It's a long and sometimes lonely road, and sometimes it hurts even thought it's been going on a while. My only advice really, is to get out there and make new spiritual friends and acquaintences, and don't give up on your Bible study.

You do not need that church for you to do something worth while. God will guide you, and lead you to the right people and situation. Actually, no matter where you end up and who you end up with, God will be there to sort it all out. Wow, what a loss for those in that church. But they may never figure it out. So, you must go on and follow your heart and LOVE will definitely make a way.

[elcharrom]

Don't think I haven't thought about that. It is that very reason I cannot be silent.
One of the things they told me was if a person is gay to keep from sinning they must not practice it.
I'm think WTF, a celibate heterosexual is still a practicing heterosexual. If homosexuality is a sin then a celibate homosexual is still in sin. This is the barrier that is not understood.
Also no one wants to believe your stories. Who are the experts? People who live it or people who ignore it and call it a sin?
I am more angry today but I am clearly thinking. The bible study plans are not off I just need to be extra careful that I provide a safe environment for those that participate.
What I am experiencing is a good thing in the long run because when I was pushed to state what I believe I new I could not go back.
If ever there is a soulforce event in Indiana make sure I am on the agenda to sing my song!
This whole thing is strangely liberating.
I don't know if I should go to band practice tonight but I think I will.
Think I should sing the Queer Redneck song?

Did you sing it after all? Because like it saysin the bible the heaves rejoice when a sinner repents of his sins, and we just need to make them realize what our pain is.

I know alot of times they say things like "Well you only suffer because you choose to do so", uhuh that dont work for me that just tells me we need to try harder, gah I wish I was older so I could help you with your bible study dreams, becuase one thing still rings true amongst all this hatred, God sent his son Jesus Christ our savior for ALL of us, every single one of us is speacial, amazing, and loved deeply in their eyes.

[Pablo Rafael]

Another critical point here: You are right, you can never turn back from a BIGGER understanding of grace, can you? We have such a small idea of God, and when we glimpse just a little more, it changes us forever ...


I missed this point when I read through this thread earlier. A very profound point, Brent. It has just in the last few years when my thinking has shifted from seeing faith as "what" we know to "how" we view things. I believe that all of faith needs to be viewed through the lens of grace. All our dealings with others need to be actions of grace. This bigger understanding of grace has changed me forever.

Again I will recommend reading What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey. I was inspired greatly by this book. I have given away quite a few copies. I gave one to my mom; she was so inspired and changed that she did a Bible study on the book. A woman who was in her study was so moved that she started her own study. (She said that the book totally changed her life.) His whole message is that all we believe and do must be a part of grace.

Philip Yancey is a freind of Mel White. He still holds (at the writing of the book) that homosexualty is wrong, but his message is one of hope, not condemnation.

I realize I do have a small idea of God, and I pray that it grows bigger and more complete year by year.

Tu Amigo, Pablo