Gcn

[dsdrane]

Gay Christian Network.

Many of you are familiar with this organization, and some I know even take part like I have and do.

I'm not sure what Soulforce's policy is on discussing -- especially negatively -- other groups and, for that matter, the karmic ramifications thereof, but I'm going to throw out the following anyway....

I'm interested in what kind of experiences people have had with GCN.

Myself, I've enjoyed time spent over there and have met a number of people I respect and like very much. I've mainly stayed on the "lighter" side of things, as I find the range of people's (educational, spiritual, sexual, political) experience, their "out-ness" and their exposure to (or willingness for) activism varies vastly...that and, frankly, the whole Side B thing creeps me out. Better to just "play".

Lately, though, I've found that I've developed a bit of a bad attitude regarding some, to my mind, fairly Orwellian oversight by the moderators coupled with what increasingly seems to me as a conservative bent.

What do you all think? What have been your experiences there?

Your pal:love:,

David

[keltic63]

I've hung out there, and posted there too. At first, I liked it, but after a while the things that are bugging you started bugging me. I haven't been there for some time now.

as far as positive/negative discussions here about gcn, I think we need to keep it to specific characteristics, and avoid personal attacks.

[Zerbie]

Side B?? Err....:confused:

[dsdrane]

...are those folks who recognize themselves as gay but who feel compelled to remain celibate because they believe gay sex is sinful and/or because any sex outside the confines of marriage is sinful -- straight, gay or otherwise.

I don't get it. I don't want to get it. And, fortunately, I don't have to get it; I simply need to be respectful and tolerant.

(But it still creeps me out.)

[u-dog]

Side B?? Err....:confused:

"Side B" gay christians are people who believe that they are NOT broken or sick and who like themselves as gay people but nevertheless believe that God wants them NOT to have sexual relations with persons of their own gender. My understanding is that many Gay Mormons take this position.

[Pablo Rafael]

Yes David, I noticed you over there at GCN playing those question and word-association games. I was going to mention the fact of your two-timing us here at the Soulforce forums, but figured you would probably bring up the question as to why I was there.

Dave, you have the kindest possible definition of "side B". I define it a little more like David; that side B people think being gay is sinful, but will accept it as their condition in life and remain celibate because that is how God wants them to be.

My apologies to all "side B" people, (That's how you start a discussion when you're going to be opinionated and closed-minded. )but it is my opinion that side B gays are simply those who are in denial and are unable to come to grips with their sexuality. :headbang: They are stuck in a mindset of being unable to look at the Bible and society in a different way than they have been conditioned to. I spent the majority of my life in side B, and never want to go back. I think the side B people do more harm than good when it comes to turning around the prejudice that afflicts gays in our society.

I haven't posted much at GNC. They do seem much more conservative generally. That doesn't really bother me any because I am comfortable in a religiously conservative environment. I do have a problem not with conservatism as such but with any mindset that refuses to examine and re-evaluate its beliefs and practices.

I have noticed a few of us over there with same usernames as here, not many, however.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Daniel]

"Side B" gay christians are people who believe that they are NOT broken or sick and who like themselves as gay people but nevertheless believe that God wants them NOT to have sexual relations with persons of their own gender. My understanding is that many Gay Mormons take this position.

(Yes....I'm being my 'abrasive' self)

It doesn't read that way from here.

One could say that those on the B side of things think of themselves as being called to some kind of higher ideal. I get that. But what does that say to those on the A side?

I'll tell ya what is says. That B side is superior to A because of the underlying assumption that this is what the Big Guy wants for GLBT folks. And the emotional logic behind that assumption is 'something's-not-right-as-it-is'. ie. Gay people are tainted somehow and have to make themselves maryters in order to be acceptable.

I say call it for what it is: internalized homophobia masking as spiritual pride.

Been there. Done that.


Boom! Crash! Bang!

~

I've been to GCN now and again, but have never posted. Had trouble logging on actually. Wrote multiple messages to the 'powers that be'. Never got a response.

They must not like me over there. And why should they? I have a strong opinion.

[u-dog]

(Yes....I'm being my 'abrasive' self)

It doesn't read that way from here.

One could say that those on the B side of things think of themselves as being called to some kind of higher ideal. I get that. But what does that say to those on the A side?

I'll tell ya what is says. That B side is superior to A because of the underlying assumption that this is what the Big Guy wants for GLBT folks. And the emotional logic behind that assumption is 'something's-not-right-as-it-is'. ie. Gay people are tainted somehow and have to make themselves maryters in order to be acceptable.

I say call it for what it is: internalized homophobia masking as spiritual pride.


Take a deep breath my Brother! I wasn't promoting it... I was just trying to explain it to Zerbie. Wether it is a spiritual hubris or not would really depend on the individual 'Side B'er. I can imagine a person who says This is who I am... I'm cool with it but I feel called to be celibate because I think its what God wants us GLBT people to do. Thinking that doesn't make it so but it also doesn't make it hubris either.

[Daniel]

Take a deep breath my Brother! I wasn't promoting it... I was just trying to explain it to Zerbie. Whether it is a spiritual hubris or not would really depend on the individual 'Side B'er. I can imagine a person who says This is who I am... I'm cool with it but I feel called to be celibate because I think its what God wants us GLBT people to do. Thinking that doesn't make it so but it also doesn't make it hubris either.


There's nothing wrong with my breathing. And I know you weren't 'promoting' the B side. :)

Like Pablo says- you have the kindest take on the B side.

I'm just calling it like I see it.

Those who want to make themselves martyers are welcome to do so. I'm just not going to be cheering them on and saying it's a wonderful thing. Let's face it. You don't see tons of straight people talking this line. And why? Because they don't harbor the idea that God doesn't approve of them. But you do with gay people brought up in conservative familes.

Do we have straight christian sites loaded with people debating whether they should be celibate or not?

I don't think so.

I call it spiritual pride because the very thing which sets gay people apart becomes the vehicle for which the person is now 'special'. Mix in a little fear of God and you have a heady cocktail.

[NathanATX]

I say call it for what it is: internalized homophobia masking as spiritual pride.

I also think that's what it is... I see it, though, as a neccessary resting point for some on their journey of fully coming out.

I would never encourage someone to become "side b," but if that's what they needed at that moment to feel ok about themselves, I give them room to be where they are.

Of course, I'll continually be boosting their self esteem and their awareness of God's deep love for them... and eventually, I believe that they will have the power to fully close the closet door and nail it shut.

There are a-m-a-z-i-n-g people at GCN... and like others have said it feels too conservative sometimes for me to really relax, so I haven't posted in ages. Which means, I should probably go say hello... :)


Nate

[Zerbie]

So I unleashed a tempest with that question huh?

This isn't particularly charitable but I think it needs to be said: I believe Daniel's right about the Side B stuff, based on the descriptions I see above. It's a position that thoroughly demeans gay folk in healthy relationships by posing them against an artificial construct: the morally superior (because virginal) homosexual.

Everyone needs to make the choice that works for them, and I will never condone someone engaging in sexual activity that they are psychologically unprepared for. Yet this position that it's a mandate because of their "flawed" sexuality can only stem from homophobia.

I don't mean to 'attack' those who may have struggled to get even that far - because their experiences are deeply felt and important - but the idea that one has a mandate to deny oneself sexual fulfillment and more - relationships! intimacy with a cherished partner! - for a LIFETIME because one is gay IS a homophobic idea all by itself. I just pray these folk don't try impose their choice as one that is morally superior to those who have been blessed by loving relationships.

[dsdrane]

I agree with Nate about this notion of a "resting place". How many gay people do you know who were "bisexual" initially? 'Course some people simply are bisexual and stay right there, but, for many it's a "resting place" to get the feet wet before diving into the deep waters of full-on gaydom.

Instead of being holier than thou (at least publically), my admitedly limited experience of Side B'ers is that they are quite defensive and tend to not broadcast the fact. I'm thinking specifically of some Side B threads I've seen where there is a plea to non-Side B'ers not to come a-proselytizin'.

Just leave us alone is the message.

For me, I think I would have less of a problem if people who choose celibacy (or feel it is chosen for them) would simply do so without defining it through the lens of sexual orientation, per se.

If a gay tree fell in a monastery....

[keltic63]

My problem with the concept of Side B is that it ignores a key teaching of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5:27-28

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

If you're thinking it, you're already doing it. I believe a sound interpretation of this particular teaching is that it's not the actions that get you into trouble, but the thoughts. If that is the case, this teaching applies to more than just lust, although it makes a great example for Christ to use.

So side B claims that they are gay, but acting on it (having sex with someone of the same gender) would be a sin. I think this particular scripture indicates that you can't make that distinction. If you're thinking it in your head, it is the same as doing it physically. We could get into hairsplitting discussions of lust/attraction, but to me, part of the attraction to someone is the possibility that something physical and intimate could happen.....and I'd enjoy it......(lust lite?)

[BrianB]

I used to post at GCN but some of my posts were a bit too controversial/abrasive/opinionated for the moderator's liking. Too often they deleted my posts so I quit posting. They have a very tight rein on what can and can not be discussed.

On the side B discussion: I spent most of my life thinking I could "overcome" my same sex attraction. Offer it to God as a sacrifice. Then I heard about Mel White and others that saw their same sex attraction as a God-given gift. It took a while to unlearn my fundamentalist background. Some people may be called to celibacy but I'm not one of them.

[tdogg]

For me, I think I would have less of a problem if people who choose celibacy (or feel it is chosen for them) would simply do so without defining it through the lens of sexual orientation, per se.


Exactly. And even better if they do it quiety. No need to tell everyone, aren't they choosing celebacy for God? Isn't it better to do God's work quietly, so they don't risk losing their heavenly reward by being rewarded here. Perhaps they feel the need to broadcast their choice in order to validate their view of being gay is ok, being sexual is a sin? I often feel that those who spend time to brag about what great Christians they are, do it because they feel so bad about themselves.

[Daniel]

I often feel that those who spend time to brag about what great Christians they are, do it because they feel so bad about themselves.

A thousand times yes.

Why mention it at all if you really are being called?

I know I grate on issues like this with our more ameliorative members. But there are certain things over the course of my life that I have never forgotten...ie....

The young man I knew at a Catholic church...praying and weeping at the altar....so obviously gay....and so obviously running from being gay...straight into the priesthood. He made a great show of his faith...of his devotion to God...of his purity. And he got lots of encouragement from the closeted priests.

Religion can do queer things to people.