My Two Cents

[Gennee]

Ever since I embraced my being transgender, I have also embraced people who are maligned, marginalized, and discriminated against. Even people who are 'Christians' partake in this demonizing people who are different.

I have also embraced the concerns of gay, lesbian, and bisexual men and women. For example, my attitude about the AIDS epidemic has changed for the positive. I applaud those who are out there working to eradicate this deadly disease.

Quite possibly, God has a plan for me to reach out to transgender people. He has plan for each and every one of us. As I read the posts on Soulforce, I am reminded that each person is unique and wonderfully made in God's sight. One reason the religious leaders of Jesus' day hated him is that he embraced people that society deemed unworthy.

From my understanding of scripture, we are to love those who are not loved. One thing I have learned is that the church needs to demonstrate their love for LGBT people without reservation. With each passing day, my love for you grows. I am happy to count you as my friends. I am not ashamed to know gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. I am not ashamed or feel guilty about being transgender and a crossdresser. God knew this time would come and I happily embrace it.

Gennee

:)

[Pablo Rafael]

From my understanding of scripture, we are to love those who are not loved. One thing I have learned is that the church needs to demonstrate their love for LGBT people without reservation. With each passing day, my love for you grows. I am happy to count you as my friends.Gennee

:)

Gennee,

Normally I would say two cents isn't worth much, but in this case it is priceless.

It is a great encouragement to read your post. I believe that God loves each one of us without reservation. His grace comes to everyone no matter what their standing. The forgiveness won for us by Christ on the cross is for all. Since we are made in the image of God, what else can we do but to show love to others as He has shown it to us? Who needs more love than those who are downtrodden?

I also am very happy to count the people here as my friends. It is a special group. I see a lot of love shown here. I'm getting mushy, I've got to stop. (Can't let down that tough masculine facade.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[andrewlittle]

I am not one for adding to scripture, but I always thought that Matthew 25:40 should read, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one that you would make the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."

[BrentRichards]

I am not one for adding to scripture, but I always thought that Matthew 25:40 should read, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one that you would make the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."

I like to read it with quotes: the "least" of these ...

[Steven E. Webster]

I like to read it with quotes: the "least" of these ...

Actually, you are perfectly entitled to add quotes to "least" if that makes sense to you. New Testament Greek didn't have quotation marks, so it's up to the translator to add them where they make sense.

Steven Webster

[labguy22]

Gennee,
I have often found, even among queer groups, transgender and transsexual persons are often treated as second class citizens and I have never understood this.
One scripture that has given me freedom to be myself is the following from Romans 8:38-39
38* For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39* Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Cheese-Love]

Strong words! Your viewpoint carries both love and faith- amazing, really. :D

[elcharrom]

Gennee dont let nothing get in the way betweeen you and God, I know you know Jesus is love, and notin but love. Keep doin what you doin gennee, I will support you in whichever way I can :D:D:D

[godschild]

I know that people say all these things about "the alternative life," but to me comes out as a justification to be prejudice, judgemental and to discriminate. I am always careful of what I say or think of other people. I love and care for all of God's children and even those that have chosen to turn the other cheak. When people say to me...what do you love another woman. I say just that. God and Jesus say Love your brother as you love yourself. Bless those that curse you. Even a non-believer can curse those who curse them. So seek perfection to be like me and love unconditionally. Its in Romans 12

[pnggrad79]

I have a sweet dear friend of mine who wants to transition from female to male. She has struggled with this her whole life, given birth to 3 kids, came out as a lesbian and is currently with a good partner. When she told me she wanted to transition, I admitted to her that while I don't understand a lot of what she is going through, I wanted to understand it and asked her to detail for me what the issues at stake are.

1. She and her partner-Her partner is a lesbian, so if she transitioned to a male, would that make them a straight couple? And her partner is a lesbian, so would she be comfortable being with a man?

I don't know, but as a lesbian, if I wanted to be with a man, I would be, but I prefer women. If my partner decided to transition, I honestly don't know how I would react. I fell in love with the person not the gender so I am guessing it would be an adjustment but I would still love the person, or does it change once you transition?

Any information on becoming the opposite sex, I would appreciate so I could better understand what my friend is experiencing. :)

[Zerbie]

PNG,

I know only a few trans people and I'm not all that incredibly close to any of them (yet.) I do know 2 couples. One was a M/F couple, I was friends with both of them, but more so with the guy who used to tell me he thought of himself as lesbian. I thought that was a kind of silly talk, like when I say I'm kind of a gay man, but in his case, he came out a few years later as transgender, AFTER having married his girlfriend. Around this time, we all grew apart and I lost touch with them, but the last I heard was that his wife. after spending some months soul-searching, had concluded that this was the same person she loved enough to marry in the first place, so although she identified as straight, she was determined to stay with her partner during and after transition. I don't know how that ended up in the long run, since we lost touch with each other shortly after that decision was made.

The other couple I know, each partner is trans, M2F and F2M, so a completely heterosexual transgender couple.

So I think the only real answer is, it depends upon each couple.

Wondering if Gennee or Ben might have a more sophisticated take on this?

[BenL]

I have a sweet dear friend of mine who wants to transition from female to male. She has struggled with this her whole life, given birth to 3 kids, came out as a lesbian and is currently with a good partner. When she told me she wanted to transition, I admitted to her that while I don't understand a lot of what she is going through, I wanted to understand it and asked her to detail for me what the issues at stake are.

1. She and her partner-Her partner is a lesbian, so if she transitioned to a male, would that make them a straight couple? And her partner is a lesbian, so would she be comfortable being with a man?

I don't know, but as a lesbian, if I wanted to be with a man, I would be, but I prefer women. If my partner decided to transition, I honestly don't know how I would react. I fell in love with the person not the gender so I am guessing it would be an adjustment but I would still love the person, or does it change once you transition?

Any information on becoming the opposite sex, I would appreciate so I could better understand what my friend is experiencing. :)

PNG and Zerbie,

I have spent the last four years learning what Charley's transition means for both of us. What I found out is that we are essentially the same people we always were, only now we're more authentic about the way we live out that reality.

There are many active groups on the Internet discussing the issues of transition for FTM (female-to-male) transsexuals and their partners. If either of your friends want info on the groups I am familiar with, I'll be glad to forward it to you, PNG.

One of the most wrenching realizations for some partners of trans people is that the way they ID is somehow deeply affected by the perceived gender of their partner. This strikes people particularly hard the more they are emotionally invested in their own identity. For instance, many FTMs come out of the lesbian community, where they had found acceptance, often as butch women, in their alternative expression of gender. Their partners usually strongly identify as lesbian. The thought of them suddenly fading into the straight world just because their partner transitions to male is extremely distressing. For them, their lesbian identity was very hard-won, and they don't want to give it up.

In my own case, I had long identified as a gay man, but hid it in a seemingly heterosexual marriage. So, when Charley transitioned, my orientation suddenly became publicly discernible. That is not always without difficulty, although, all in all, our lives today are much more authentic than they ever were.

What many partners learn is that we also undergo a transition of our own, one that is every bit as valid and important as the trans partner's transition. Where the difficulty occurs often is with the timetable. The trans person, who has often struggled for years with gender identity issues, is on the express train, while the partner is just grappling with these thing for the first time and has a hard time catching up.

Most pre-existing partnerships fall apart when one member transitions. (Sorry I don't know the research off the top of my head about the exact percentage.) Of the relationships that survive transition, most of the partners are extremely challenged by what those changes will mean to their own identity and how it is perceived by the outside world. Most partners who stay end up saying what your friend did, that they fell in love with a person not a package. That decision means the end of sexual intimacy for a lot of people who cannot consider themselves to have another orientation. Therapy, both individual and couples, with a therapist well-versed in gender issues, can be very important.

I can recommend some books to read, if you would like. Some of them already appear in the trans resources thread that's a sticky in one of the forums. Let me know and I'll compile a list.

The most important thing is for you to stay friends with that couple. They will lose an awful lot of the people they thought they could count on. You don't have to understand everything to be friends, just be sensitive and ask questions in a non-judgemental way. But I'm sure you already know that.

[pnggrad79]

Thanks Ben. I told her that I would be her friend no matter how she identified herself and that if she felt more comfortable being male, then she needed to pursue that. Her partner though wants to remain a lesbian, so it will be interesting to see how it pans out. I am not sure whether she will actually go through the surgeries and everything or if she will just adopt a more butch persona, which she pretty much does anyway. I will check out the transgender resources and educate myself.

Does Charley ever regret the change?

[BenL]

Does Charley ever regret the change?

Not for a minute. Although we both regret that our children have abandoned us. We doubt we'll ever have grandchildren, and we're pretty sure that if we do we won't be allowed to see them. At least as long as nothing changes in the present state of our relationships with our son and daughter.

But there's always a silver lining. We are friends with a couple made up of an FTM and a bio woman. They met and married here in MA when they were lesbians, though he had already broached the subject of transitioning. Now she is pregnant through artificial insemination with donor sperm and due April 1. Probably twins. Guess who are going to be the resident grandpas? Yup, Charley and me, since his family is in the Midwest and hers is in FL. She said a child can never have too many grandpas. So, we're looking forward to a whole new chapter in our lives. Another way LGBT folks create family when their own cut them off.

[sailaway58]

You guys are killing me. My head jut spun till I hit the floor.
I have to slow down a little. :reading:

[mjules]

Oh, hey, does anyone have any suggestions on where I should get information about the biology and science of F-t-M? I've been curious about it for a while and haven't been able to find anything. Google turns up next to nothing. Something with good scientific information plus personal experience would be nice, since I'm the kind of curious that wants to sit down and ask people, "But what does it feel like now?"

Basically, I am psychologically and emotionally *not* an absolute-female on the gender spectrum, and I've wondered if it would be "worth it" to me personally to transition physically, so I'd like a lot of comprehensive information.

[Zerbie]

You guys are killing me. My head jut spun till I hit the floor.
I have to slow down a little. :reading:

:lol::lol::lol:

Oh gosh, Sailor!! You just gave me such perspective with that remark. See, here we all are, having this conversation which is utterly normal and matter-of-fact to us. I just went back and read the last several posts trying to imagine I had barely ever met a gay person let alone a trans person, and I was kind of blown away by how different it must seem! You see, I've been talking like this since at least the early 90s. I forgot it was ever new to me.

[pnggrad79]

Ben,
Forgive me for asking, but did Charley transition from female to male or the other way around? I am so sorry your kids have abandoned you. You and Charley gave birth to them and raised them to be the people they are today, and for them to walk away from you must be a gut wrenching thing and I am so sorry. I am glad your friends have adopted you and he as grandpas. That will be perfect and I am sure a joy in your life. Please forward that info to me so I can study it and give it to my friend.

I think where things stand now with her is that her partner had a meltdown over it and she didn't want to pursue it because she doesn't want to put her partner through something or make her accept something she really isn't comfortable with. Plus her parents accept her lesbianism, and she isn't sure if they would accept her becoming male. So she is going to counseling to see how she can somehow mesh the male part of who she is with the female part, and see if that can be something she can live with. She is very butch and very "manly" so to speak, but talking to her she is very tender and sweet, something not a lot of people see from her gruff exterior.

I would be interested in any kind of research or info about transgender people and anything on the subject. Thanks.:)

[BenL]

Ben,
Forgive me for asking, but did Charley transition from female to male or the other way around? I am so sorry your kids have abandoned you. You and Charley gave birth to them and raised them to be the people they are today, and for them to walk away from you must be a gut wrenching thing and I am so sorry. I am glad your friends have adopted you and he as grandpas. That will be perfect and I am sure a joy in your life. Please forward that info to me so I can study it and give it to my friend.

Charley is FTM (female-to-male) and birthed and nursed our children. Many people, when they first hear this, say if you can go through pregnancy, give birth and nurse, how can you ever consider yourself male? Genderbending at it's extreme? Actually there are many, many ftms who are mothers. The documentary film Trans Parent told the stories of a couple of dozen of them and is one of the most informative and poignant films I've seen. Unfortunately, it's not generally available, but if you ever get a chance to see a screening of it at a lgbt film festival, it's worth going to.

I'm working today, but have Sunday and Monday off. I'll try to assemble an FTM resource primer (actually Charley has it pretty much pulled together for workshops he has done) and post it. A few people have asked privately.

[pnggrad79]

Thanks Ben. I appreciate it.
:)

[BenL]

BOOKS:

She's not there: a life in two genders by Jennifer Finney Boylan. (New York: Broadway Books, 2003) While this is an autobiography by a male-to-female transsexual (MTF), not an FTM (female-to-male), it is an excellent exploration of a trans person's life and thinking from childhood on. It is very accessible to the general reader who has no background in trans issues.

Just add hormones: an insider's guide to the transsexual experience by Matt Kailey. (Boston, Beacon Press, 2005) Written by an FTM, it is a combination of overall information about transgender issues and a humorous account of one transman's experiences. I like this book because it takes the mystique out of being trans and manages to poke a little fun at it as well. Matt is also a speaker and trainer. See his Web site: www.mattkailey.com

Becoming a visible man by Jamison Green. (Nashville: Vanderbilt University Press, 2004) This is a comprehensive account of Green's lifelong journey into manhood. It's chock full of information about trans rights; medical transition, including hormone treatments and surgeries; and a male coming-of-age account. I'm a bio male, and I learned something about my own manhood and masculinity from reading this book.

Transgender journeys by Virginia Ramey Mollenkott and Vanessa Sheridan. (Cleveland: Pilgrim Press, 2003) I haven't read this one yet, but it comes highly recommended, as do both authors. It is on general trans issues and not specifically FTM.

Transgendering faith: identity, sexuality and spirituality edited by Leanne McCall Tigert and Maren C. Tirabassi. (Cleveland: Pilgrim Press, 2004) This is a complilation of life stories and essays and is especially good for clergy and church members who want to learn how to incorporate trans people into their congregations. It transcends the medical model and looks for the divine in the trans experience. Includes prayers and rites for use with transgender people.

WEB SITES:

FTMInternational (http://www.ftmi.org) Serves the female-to-male community around the world. Founded by Louis Sullivan, a gay transman. This organization figures heavily in Jamison Green's life and is recounted in his book.

National Center for Transgender Equality (http://www.nctequality.org/) lead advocacy organization for transgender rights nationally.

Hudson's FTM Resource Guide (http://www.ftmguide.org/) A comprehensive and authoritative guide to all the nitty-gritty issues of being FTM, from passing to packing, grooming to legal questions.

FTM Australia (http://www.ftmaustralia.org/) Lots of pages here for family, friends and allies, as well as solid information for FTMs. Some of the legal and medical stuff is understandably focused on Australia and New Zealand.

Hope this helps.

[pnggrad79]

Ben,
I will forward these wonderful sites to my wishful thinking FTM friend and maybe that can be of some assistance to her and her partner. I don't know what's kosher, calling her a her instead of him? I don't know what is insensitive and what is the correct pronoun to use with my friend. I know how desperately she wants to be a man, but until anatomically it changes, what should I call *her*? What is the correct verbage?;)

[BenL]

Ben,
I will forward these wonderful sites to my wishful thinking FTM friend and maybe that can be of some assistance to her and her partner. I don't know what's kosher, calling her a her instead of him? I don't know what is insensitive and what is the correct pronoun to use with my friend. I know how desperately she wants to be a man, but until anatomically it changes, what should I call *her*? What is the correct verbage?;)

It's up to the person which pronouns to use. When your friend asks you to switch, then do so. Or when your friend presents as male, make the switch without being asked.

It's trickier for FTMs than it is for MTFs. Women crossdress routinely. They wear pants and jeans and men's dress shirts etc. Short haircuts are also routine, not just in the lesbian community. When an MTF puts on a skirt or a dress, you know for sure that she wants to be addressed as woman. When an FTM puts on a suit and tie, that's a pretty good bet he wants to be treated as a man.

There's a lot of ambiguity in between. If you're not sure, ask ... in a non-threatening way, of course. Your friend may hold off, out of respect for her partner, or just out of uncertainty. The days when your friend is deciding what to do and the androgynous time early in transition are the most difficult for you to know how to act. Let the trans person take the lead. Your friendship and respect are more important than knowing the "rules."