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wmanion
08-27-2007, 11:53 PM
Hi all,

One thing that I have struggled with for several years is the concept of walking in forgiveness. This was true especially, when I use to hear all the hate that the churches were spewing in the name of love against the GLBT community. Although, I walked away from the church and never looked back, I never walked away from my belief that love was the only answer. However, to truly love, one must be able to forgive. I guess what was meant by “Love thy enemies,” was to love them to the point of forgiveness. When conflicts arose in my life, it was to easy to bear a grudge and not have to deal with the individuals that I did not like or that I did not care to hear the things they had to say. Unfortunately, by holding on to the grudges, I found myself in a place of avoidance. I would avoid the conflicts (people and issues) instead of standing my ground on what I knew to be true to in my heart. The gay man who recently was denied a funeral by the church only stirred memories of my family and the pain they endured when the pastor came and said he did not know my cousin was gay and had he known he would have refused to do the funeral but since he had all ready committed himself he would do it, but it would be short for there was nothing good to say about my cousin. At this point, my love was challenged. How could I honestly love and forgive this preacher for the hurt and judgment that he had inflicted. Honestly, for a long time I couldn’t forgive which I know hindered my ability to love. I finally had to come to terms with the fact that I had to forgive if I wanted to retain the love that I wanted in my life. I struggled with this because I thought that if I forgave, it would be like saying, I was wrong and the way the preacher felt was correct. Then I realized that forgiveness has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong…forgiveness has to do with love. If you really love and that love is manifested in your life then forgiveness is not a question or an option, it becomes a natural part of that love. I want to walk in forgiveness and to do that I must walk in love. It is not easy all the time. In fact, sometimes it is a real struggle; however, I believe it was this desire to walk in forgiveness that led me to Soulforce. I do not have to compromise my beliefs that I am loved no matter what the “religious” say. I do not have to be silent in my opposition to inequality. I do not have to live by anyone else’s standards for love to manifest itself in my life. Yet, I need to stand my ground as I walk in forgiveness.

Bill

sailaway58
08-28-2007, 05:45 AM
Great thoughts Bill.
I usually think of walking in forgiveness as walking in the forgiveness that God gives me. You have a better or deeper take on it.
Forgives us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

Pablo Rafael
08-28-2007, 05:49 AM
I don't have a lot to add, Bill, but just want to woleheartedly agree.
In our society we have a misunderstanding of forgiveness. Often forgiveness is connected with weakness. I see forgiveness as a sign of strength. When Christ forgave those who were crucifying him (and vicarously I consider myself a part of that mob), it was a sign of strength. Few things are more powerful than forgiveness.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

BenL
08-28-2007, 08:02 AM
Thanks for your thoughts, Bill. There's a lot to mull over, and I won't pretend to be able to respond thoughtfully so soon.

I would like to recommend a book that helped me a lot a few years ago:

Forgiven and forgiving by L. William Countryman. Harrisburg, PA : Morehouse Pub., c1998.

Bill Countryman is an Episcopal priest, a theologian, and a gay man. But this isn't a gay book, it's a Christian book. Worth the read. I'll bet you can pick up a used copy on Amazon.

paul
08-28-2007, 08:30 AM
Hi all,

One thing that I have struggled with for several years is the concept of walking in forgiveness. This was true especially, when I use to hear all the hate that the churches were spewing in the name of love against the GLBT community. Although, I walked away from the church and never looked back, I never walked away from my belief that love was the only answer. However, to truly love, one must be able to forgive. I guess what was meant by “Love thy enemies,” was to love them to the point of forgiveness. When conflicts arose in my life, it was to easy to bear a grudge and not have to deal with the individuals that I did not like or that I did not care to hear the things they had to say. Unfortunately, by holding on to the grudges, I found myself in a place of avoidance. I would avoid the conflicts (people and issues) instead of standing my ground on what I knew to be true to in my heart. The gay man who recently was denied a funeral by the church only stirred memories of my family and the pain they endured when the pastor came and said he did not know my cousin was gay and had he known he would have refused to do the funeral but since he had all ready committed himself he would do it, but it would be short for there was nothing good to say about my cousin. At this point, my love was challenged. How could I honestly love and forgive this preacher for the hurt and judgment that he had inflicted. Honestly, for a long time I couldn’t forgive which I know hindered my ability to love. I finally had to come to terms with the fact that I had to forgive if I wanted to retain the love that I wanted in my life. I struggled with this because I thought that if I forgave, it would be like saying, I was wrong and the way the preacher felt was correct. Then I realized that forgiveness has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong…forgiveness has to do with love. If you really love and that love is manifested in your life then forgiveness is not a question or an option, it becomes a natural part of that love. I want to walk in forgiveness and to do that I must walk in love. It is not easy all the time. In fact, sometimes it is a real struggle; however, I believe it was this desire to walk in forgiveness that led me to Soulforce. I do not have to compromise my beliefs that I am loved no matter what the “religious” say. I do not have to be silent in my opposition to inequality. I do not have to live by anyone else’s standards for love to manifest itself in my life. Yet, I need to stand my ground as I walk in forgiveness.

Bill

This is such a big subject, Bill, and that you tie forgiveness to love is right to me: "...love keeps no record of wrongs...."

I like how Pablo uses the example of Jesus' crucifiction and saying "forgive them." I would add part "B" as equally important "for they know not what they do."

I think understanding can empower love to forgive. When we realize that the person "crucifying" doesn't "know" what they are doing, that they act in ignorance, it makes it less personal. Interesting that the people crucifying Jesus thought they were doing God a favor. Sound familiar?

I think the strength of love comes from knowing and being secure in the truth. Or maybe it would be more correct to say being secure in being honest about what we 'know' and don't 'know.'

wmanion
08-28-2007, 02:34 PM
Thanks for all the feedback and I will look for that book. Another scripture that came to mind was that "Love covers transgression." My whole problem use to be and sometimes is that I would equate forgiveness with right and wrong instead of with love. Yes, they "do know not what they do." However, I do know that in a lot of cases forgiveness is connected with "wrong," and that kind of forgiveness comes from repentence, but then again, the forgiveness goes back to love. Without love, there can be no forgiveness.

Bill

scott snedeker
08-29-2007, 09:42 AM
Thanks for all the feedback and I will look for that book. Another scripture that came to mind was that "Love covers transgression." My whole problem use to be and sometimes is that I would equate forgiveness with right and wrong instead of with love. Yes, they "do know not what they do." However, I do know that in a lot of cases forgiveness is connected with "wrong," and that kind of forgiveness comes from repentence, but then again, the forgiveness goes back to love. Without love, there can be no forgiveness.

Bill

I myself have to pass through vengence, anger, rage, righteous indignation, frustration, acceptance, and immolation before love and forgiveness, love and spiritual nonviolence is safe. I'm still not there yet. Each step felt great..for a while.

Only now am I finding these levels of spiritually violent phases ungratifying and untenable. Perhaps, like me you had some Hell to pass through before reaching love and forgivenes because the spiritual violence done to you had internalized and needs to process out?

wmanion
08-29-2007, 11:13 PM
I myself have to pass through vengence, anger, rage, righteous indignation, frustration, acceptance, and immolation before love and forgiveness, love and spiritual nonviolence is safe. I'm still not there yet. Each step felt great..for a while.

Scott,
I think these are normal responses when we have been hurt or wronged. However, these stages can either be gone through quickly or dragged out for years in some cases. For myself, holding on to these responses and not getting to that place of forgiveness as soon as possible only hurts my own self-being. And yes, it does seem at times I have been through hell and back, but I know there are a lot of use here who have shared the same pain.

Bill