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glbt_equality

08-29-2007, 04:59 PM

Some of the recent news stories, combined with more of the same over the past few decades, have got me thinking about a fresh way of understanding an "adversarial viewpoint." Here's what I came up with:

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the issues of GLBT equality has to do with the topic of “choice.” Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains a large vein of extreme conservatism (the Religious Right and the Republican Party) who insist that a person’s sexual orientation is determined by a decision made by each individual.

How can that be? How can so many so-called intelligent people simply ignore all that evidence and all of our sworn statements and all of our testimonials that we, too, would have probably “chosen” to be straight… if that had only been an option for us. The idea that any persecuted class of citizen would “choose” to be persecuted is itself such a ludicrous proposition that it begs the question, “Why are we still arguing about choice?”

“Choice” is, after all, a central tenet to continued denial of human rights. The “choice” between straight and gay becomes, in the minds of conservatives, the choice between good and evil, and becomes therefore the singular point from which they are empowered to deny our civil liberties. Take away the issue of “choice,” and admit that we are born this way… and you take away their rationale for punishment. Take away the issue of “choice,” and they would have to start treating us like human beings.

The GLBT community, in all our activities and lobbying efforts, seem to pay little attention to the “B” in “GLBT,” and the reason for this becomes obvious when you look at our organizations a little more closely. Attend any PFLAG meeting around the country, or go to any gay church or activist-oriented meeting and you’ll find that while the gay, lesbian and transgendered communities are well represented, there are precious few self-identified bisexual people present.

So I asked myself why this might be… and the answer was so obvious that I was amazed it hadn’t occurred to me earlier. You see… you have to realize that some of us DO have a choice – there are those among us who have the luxury of being able to “pick” their own sexual orientation – and those fortunate few are called “bisexual.”

Think about it… if you had a choice… if you were bisexual, and could chose between full equality (straight) or being a member of the persecuted class (gay), which would you choose?

So maybe the reason we don’t have more bisexuals among our ranks, joining in the good fight for equality, is due to the fact that it was easier for them to simply make the choice to be “straight,” and voila… the issue no longer affects them… they become immune to the slings and arrows and religious and social and even physical violence directed toward the GLBT community.

Once I recognized this dynamic, then an even more amazing truth hit me so squarely between the eyes, that it almost knocked me out of my chair! I was sitting here, wondering about those people who – in spite of all this overwhelming evidence – continue to insist that being gay is a choice.

These people are terrified that recognizing gay humanity will cause in our country a gay “epidemic”… where all sorts of formerly “straight” people will begin “choosing” a gay lifestyle. The fear that making gay “ok” will therefore destroy the very fabric of the American family… that we’ll all start running around naked and making love in the streets… that cats and dogs will start sleeping together… “It’ll be anarchy, I tell you!”

Who would think such a thing? Who would honestly believe that it’s a simple matter of choice in spite of all the evidence? Well, I believe the most likely candidate is the near-forgotten “B” in “GLBT,” our bisexual brothers and sisters. Who else could “know” beyond a shadow of doubt that sexuality is a choice but those among us for which it actually IS a choice?

It is ironic to me that, in spite of our inclusion of bisexuals in our ongoing struggle toward freedom, that some bisexuals, in addition to choosing the “straight” path, have also chosen to be among our most prolific adversaries – spewing hate from pulpit and judicial bench, from pen and from stage… perhaps even bringing themselves to believe that we are all, like them, blessed with the ability to make our sexual orientation a simple matter of choice. So some of the people we are trying to help liberate are also the same people who are “hell-bent” on subduing our liberty.

The dynamic is all around us, as we see preachers and “straight” Republican congressmen getting busted for illicit gay sex acts in airport restrooms, we can’t help but start to ask why those who shout most loudly against our liberties seem to be trying foremost to keep their own “demons” at bay….

I say, “Enough!” I happen to be a gay man, but I don’t presume to believe or preach the ridiculous notion that all men are therefore gay. So if you happen to be bisexual, we’re simply asking that you don’t make the ludicrous assumption that all humans are similarly oriented to being able to make that choice. I’ll make a deal with you… I’ll accept your bisexuality – I’ll accept the notion that you really can choose – if you accept the fact that I can’t. How’s that for a deal?

Maybe if more of us can start to accept the notion that humans are created with a variety of qualities, we can all start to get along better.

--Troy Carlyle

Zerbie

08-29-2007, 06:41 PM

Troy,

You and I have spoken several times before very amicably. Do you know that I am bisexual? Naturally, I have some responses to your (interesting and in some ways on-target) assessment of bisexuality and "choice."

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the issues of GLBT equality has to do with the topic of “choice.” Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains a large vein of extreme conservatism (the Religious Right and the Republican Party) who insist that a person’s sexual orientation is determined by a decision made by each individual.

How can that be? How can so many so-called intelligent people simply ignore all that evidence and all of our sworn statements and all of our testimonials that we, too, would have probably “chosen” to be straight… if that had only been an option for us. The idea that any persecuted class of citizen would “choose” to be persecuted is itself such a ludicrous proposition that it begs the question, “Why are we still arguing about choice?”

“Choice” is, after all, a central tenet to continued denial of human rights. The “choice” between straight and gay becomes, in the minds of conservatives, the choice between good and evil, and becomes therefore the singular point from which they are empowered to deny our civil liberties. Take away the issue of “choice,” and admit that we are born this way… and you take away their rationale for punishment. Take away the issue of “choice,” and they would have to start treating us like human beings.

Actually, no. It's like taking away one leg from the table, but it doesn't come crashing to the ground. Convince the adversary that it's not a choice, and then we will hear the rebuttal, "some people are born prone to alcoholism or kleptomania and they didn't have a choice either - it's still a disease and it's still morally wrong, therefore it still deserves legal sanction." We won't win if the "choice" debate goes away - well, not immediately at least. We probably WILL win some percentage points in the opinion polls, but we won't immediately bury our adversaries because in the absence of one ridiculous argument, they WILL replace it with another.

The GLBT community, in all our activities and lobbying efforts, seem to pay little attention to the “B” in “GLBT,” and the reason for this becomes obvious when you look at our organizations a little more closely. Attend any PFLAG meeting around the country, or go to any gay church or activist-oriented meeting and you’ll find that while the gay, lesbian and transgendered communities are well represented, there are precious few self-identified bisexual people present.

Yes, true.

Bisexual people are frequently subsumed into the category of orientation that corresponds to the gender of their partner. Stomping your feet and reminding everyone "Hey, I'm bisexual" starts to feel ridiculous after a while, since you aren't issuing an invitation for a date on Saturday night, so what's the point. If you're bi and with a girl, they'll think you're lesbian. If you're bi and with a boy, they'll think you're straight.

So I asked myself why this might be… and the answer was so obvious that I was amazed it hadn’t occurred to me earlier. You see… you have to realize that some of us DO have a choice – there are those among us who have the luxury of being able to “pick” their own sexual orientation – and those fortunate few are called “bisexual.”

Oh no sweetie. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. :lol: I didn't choose to be bisexual. It HAPPENED TO ME just like being gay happened to you. Choice only comes into play with how one DEALS with the orientation - but just as you didn't choose to like guys and only guys, neither did I choose to like both guys AND girls.

Think about it… if you had a choice… if you were bisexual, and could chose between full equality (straight) or being a member of the persecuted class (gay), which would you choose?

I didn't. I didn't choose, Troy. Love found me. Call me weird, but I would go with whatever partner brought out the strength, the courage, and the love in me - who I trust, who I love, who I am proud call my partner. I want to be authentic on the inside and live in authenticity, not hide the essentials for the sake of outwardly getting along but at the expense of the spirit!

Don't think this means I'm unaware of all the privileges that come with being partnered with the socially appropriate gender. I'm reminded of it every day. I'm SWIMMING in heterosexual privilege, and you know what that illustrates? It illustrates how incredibly ARBITRARY is the kind of discrimination that you deal with daily. If I had but fallen in love with and settled down with a woman, they'd be heaping disdain and other shit on me. But I fell for a guy, and all is hunky-dory. They are missing the fact that I am the exact same person with the exact same values in either scenario.

So maybe the reason we don’t have more bisexuals among our ranks, joining in the good fight for equality, is due to the fact that it was easier for them to simply make the choice to be “straight,” and voila… the issue no longer affects them… they become immune to the slings and arrows and religious and social and even physical violence directed toward the GLBT community.

I don't doubt that there are some bisexuals out there who in fact HAVE made that choice. I believe that some of the "ex gays" out there who seem convinced of a change, are likely bisexual in varying degrees. There are homophobic bisexuals, sure, just as there are homophobic homos.

There are ALSO bisexuals out there who define as lesbian or gay because they fear rejection by the gay community if they recognize or admit to opposite sex attractions. That was a huge fear for me when I first came out to myself as bi. I was terrified I would be accused of betraying the gay community. So instead I pulled a disappearing act, and dropped out of activism altogether on the reasoning that "gay people won't want me once they know who I really am.:'("

And there are bisexuals who identify as lesbian or gay because that's as far as they want to go with the process of questioning and re-evaluating their orientation. I've met people who I KNOW are bisexual, and some of them insist they are straight while others insist they are gay. For them, opening up the questions again looks far too painful to bear.

Who would think such a thing? Who would honestly believe that it’s a simple matter of choice in spite of all the evidence? Well, I believe the most likely candidate is the near-forgotten “B” in “GLBT,” our bisexual brothers and sisters. Who else could “know” beyond a shadow of doubt that sexuality is a choice but those among us for which it actually IS a choice?

Here, a distinction needs to be made between sexual orientation and behavior. The behavior is a choice, the orientation is not. That's true across the board whatever orientation we are talking about. The essential difference for a bisexual person is that they CAN find a member of the socially appropriate gender with whom they can be responsive, whereas a gay person cannot. But even that is not a choice of ORIENTATION. That's a choice of PARTNER, and we all know what happens when a 100% gay person chooses an opposite sex partner.

It is ironic to me that, in spite of our inclusion of bisexuals in our ongoing struggle toward freedom, that some bisexuals, in addition to choosing the “straight” path, have also chosen to be among our most prolific adversaries – spewing hate from pulpit and judicial bench, from pen and from stage… perhaps even bringing themselves to believe that we are all, like them, blessed with the ability to make our sexual orientation a simple matter of choice. So some of the people we are trying to help liberate are also the same people who are “hell-bent” on subduing our liberty.

I'm sure that's true. Troy, please do not forget that some of our most battle-scarred warriors in the fight for equality have been, or currently are, bisexual. This dynamic operates on BOTH sides of the equation.

I say, “Enough!” I happen to be a gay man, but I don’t presume to believe or preach the ridiculous notion that all men are therefore gay. So if you happen to be bisexual, we’re simply asking that you don’t make the ludicrous assumption that all humans are similarly oriented to being able to make that choice. I’ll make a deal with you… I’ll accept your bisexuality – I’ll accept the notion that you really can choose – if you accept the fact that I can’t. How’s that for a deal?

--Troy Carlyle

Troy, can you see why this might appear to me as a rant against bisexual people as a whole? I think you mean to rail against those who are doing harm to the cause, but it almost read to me like you resent including bisexuals in this movement at all. I can't pretend to feel happy about that.

BrianB

08-29-2007, 10:08 PM

u-dog

08-30-2007, 08:47 AM

glbt_equality

08-30-2007, 10:00 AM

Zerbie

08-30-2007, 11:48 AM

I understand your reactions Zerbie and Brian and how you might hear what Troy wrote in that light but don't miss what he is saying.

He is asking the question that I have often asked: "Why would anyone assume that sexual orientation is a choice?" WHY WOULD SOMEONE ASSUME THAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CHOICE???

One answer is the one that Troy is positing. For some (many?) people the object of sexual attraction IS a choice :

Then you do not understand, Dave. It ISN'T a choice. We don't choose attraction!! Only whether or not we act upon it.

Zerbie

08-30-2007, 12:05 PM

Thanks, U-Dog, for understanding. I hope you all know me well enough by now to not read between the lines any bigotry on my part. And I'm of course not suggesting that bisexuals have a choice in being bisexual. They do, however... and by definition... have a marvelous option of choosing a lifestyle. I just think that it's unfortunate that some (albeit only "some") have used that "ability" to cause harm.

That's what I thought you meant to get at. The comments seemed rather generalized, however, and even kind of angry. Having gone through a lot of fear that my orientation would be construed as threatening to the gay community, I had to make clear certain distinctions.

It hurts my heart to think that any of my friends here might take this as lashing out at you. Please accept my apologies for creating that impression and know that I was speaking to the smaller part of a larger population.

Please don't feel hurt. I didn't believe you meant it that way - but I've heard a lot of comments from gay people over the years that amount to excluding, denying, and defaming bisexuals. Some of them came from people I trusted and thought were my friends.
I wanted to make sure you understood the distinction between bisexual orientation and lifestyle choices. Seems clear that you do, and as I suspected you were after a small portion of the population. I didn't find that all too clear the first time around, and wanted to verify. I felt a need to clear the air early. Don't worry about that. Everything is fine.

I further realize that such viewpoints are destined to be controversial, and would rather drop the point alltogether than lose friendships made here, among you. I ask that you understand, however, that my purpose was to consider a viewpoint that may help all of us to better understand the larger dynamics behind the ongoing bigotry in our country... and in considering such possibilities, perhaps be better equipped to promote change. In other words... if we can better understand what is broken, we are better equipped to "fix it."

Peace and Love, Troy

:love: Don't worry, Troy. :love:

You don't have to drop it. I was anxious to clarify that you were not lumping all of us into the category of assuming you can change your orientation la dee da. It was the line "if you happen to be bisexual" in the final paragraph, which was quite generalized, that made me wonder if you were aware that some of your friends here ARE bisexual, and if you were aware of the distinction between orientation and behavior (check, and check:cool:).

Personally, I've always thought it likely that a number of self-proclaimed "ex gays" are probably bisexual, which would explain why they were able to choose an opposite sex partner and turn their back on same-sex romantic relationships with a degree of certainty that it's the real thing. It bugs me to think of people doing that and then turning around and agitating that gay folk should do likewise. No quibbles there!

Carry on.

paul

08-30-2007, 02:23 PM

BrianB

08-30-2007, 03:03 PM

I understand your reactions Zerbie and Brian and how you might hear what Troy wrote in that light but don't miss what he is saying.

He is asking the question that I have often asked: "Why would anyone assume that sexual orientation is a choice?" The personal experience of the vast majority of straight people and gay people is that we "woke up that way" one day shortly after our eleventh or twefth birthday. Those of us who are gay spent huge amounts of psychological, emotional, and spiritual energy trying to change and couldn't. So WHY WOULD SOMEONE ASSUME THAT SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS A CHOICE???

One answer is the one that Troy is positing. For some (many?) people the object of sexual attraction IS a choice and those people are ASSUMING THAT EVERYONE IS LIKE THEM and some are CHOOSING to have sex with people of the same gender.

He is not saying that all bi-sexuals are bigots. he is suggesting that the possibility exists that all the homophobic bigots are bi-sexuals who assume that their experience is universal. The irony of that is of course STAGGERING. It is also amusing to imagine what would happen to the "its a lifestyle choice" argument if we started to answer it by suggesting to those who make it that "their slip is showing" :lol::lol::lol:

U-dog, I did go back and re-read Troy's post a bit more closely. I do see how it can be interpreted in a kinder light. There were just some very general statements that kind of bugged me.

One day several months after I had come out to my mom as bisexual we were talking about my coming out. Mom said she understood about having attractions for the same sex when you are younger. It is an experimenting phase. Then she confessed that she had been attracted to a girl in school. Of course, she said that she grew out of that phase. She thought that I had as well. That makes me think that mummy was bisexual too. Evidently, she is an example of Troy's point.

BrianB

Zerbie

08-30-2007, 03:41 PM

Rats. You are way to cute for me to disagree with Troy, sigh.

I feel pretty safe here at soulforce, so I'll let you in on a secret. I identify as "gay." I've come out, at huge expense, as "gay." But I sometimes fear I might be "bisexual." That's bisexual, not ambisextrous. I say "fear" because I have never had an opportunity for a ltr to actually see for myself. I do know I'm mostly gay, the evidence is all there, but there's enough to make me question also. I actually fear being bisexual because many see bisexual people as people who have a choice. For a bisexual to choose is like saying: "which to you want to keep, your right arm or your left arm."

As Zerbie is trying to explain, it isn't like you have this wonderful choice and you can go either way, rather, you feel a loss if you don't have both. Just like you would have a real void if you were forced to be with a woman, a bisexual person has a very real void if they don't have both.

I think it is harder to be bisexual than it is to be gay in some respects.

Wow, this thread just gets curioser and curiouser!!! :lol:

Speaking for me, I do not need to have ongoing relationships with partners of both sexes. I did though need to explore dating relationships with both sexes in my young single days in order to know exactly where I stood, orientationally, and how I function in relationship. Once I knew, the only matter was finding out who my partner would be, and then settling down.

Anyway, I had a VERY hard time coming out as bisexual. From my pov it would have been easier to come out as lesbian. Oh, wait, I DID that. Did that first, then came out to myself, and a year later was finally able to accept that the term "bisexual" appeared to fit. I spent about a decade rejecting the BI label, because I had real problems with it.

sailaway58

08-30-2007, 03:45 PM

BrentRichards

08-30-2007, 04:13 PM

Zerbie

08-30-2007, 04:18 PM

Zerbie

08-30-2007, 04:24 PM

I do know that I run into gay men all the time who have a serious bad attitude about bisexuality ... in effect, they don't believe it exists ... it's just "code" for "I'm gay and don't want to admit it." Clearly, the B in LGBT is what used to be called the "ugly red-headed step-child" of the movement. (No offense intended to the differently-beautiful, the red-headed, or step-children ... it was not a nice expression, but it's fitting here, as there's no justification for either exclusion) I have the emotional sense that I would find it difficult to be in a relationship with a bi man, but I think that's because I'm overwhelmed at the idea of how many more people could potentially steal him from me. I truly think that our attitudes toward bisexuality are one of the big internal road blocks in our community right now. So, I try to be consciously careful about projecting my "stuff" onto bisexual people ... I pretended to like girls to hide my orientation, but that doesn't mean that every guy who likes men is "pretending" when he also likes women. (Of course I'm using "like" euphemistically here, I like women just fine ...) It's the same problem "they" have with "us" ... If I don't "get it" it can't be okay. We can't afford to have "us" and "us" divided over not "getting" each other!

Thanks Brent. :love:

Can you imagine how it sucked to come out as bisexual and hope to find a date? Quite the opposite of the famous quip about twice as many dates - more like, less than HALF as many dates. Between the homophobes, the lesbians who think bisexuals are going to betray them, and the guys who are ONLY interested 'cuz they think you're gonna let them watch you with another girl or something, AAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

The wonderful thing about when things started getting serious with my husband was, I thought I'd better come out to him, so I made this big announcement and he just raised an eyebrow and said, "This is supposed to be news??? I knew you were bisexual the day I met you." :D

Yes, we exist. Of course we're capable of making commitments, and no we aren't lying when we say we're attracted to both genders.

BrentRichards

08-30-2007, 04:28 PM

:love:Zerbie:love:

mjules

08-30-2007, 06:26 PM

I actually fear being bisexual because many see bisexual people as people who have a choice. For a bisexual to choose is like saying: "which to you want to keep, your right arm or your left arm."

As Zerbie is trying to explain, it isn't like you have this wonderful choice and you can go either way, rather, you feel a loss if you don't have both. Just like you would have a real void if you were forced to be with a woman, a bisexual person has a very real void if they don't have both.

I think it is harder to be bisexual than it is to be gay in some respects.

OMGYES. You put it SO WELL. I would love to even expand on that to show you how much I agree with you, but that's so eloquently put I don't even have the ability.

Zerbie addressed all of my major concerns after I read the initial post, so I wasn't even going to say anything, but... well, yes. Being bi is difficult, because some people DO see us as having a choice, and no, it's really like having two of your very favorite dishes set down in front of you and being told you can't have both. (Which is why I'm a fan of the idea of polyfidelity, but you wanna talk about being even MORE of an outcast...)

It's frustrating for me because a lot of lesbian women refuse to date bisexual women, thinking they'll be left for a man eventually (as if it makes them more likely to be abandoned than if another lesbian woman might abandon them for another woman), and a lot of straight guys think it's "cool" to have a girlfriend who's bi because they think they'll get their own live girl-on-girl sex show whenever they want. Eerrr...no?

So, yeah. A friend of mine has been joking about buying me a shirt that says "Bisexual Blues: We love everybody and nobody loves us." And while that's an exaggeration, it feels true sometimes. So I'm glad to see that the whole issue has been clarified, because it's oh-so-easy to be paranoid when you're used to getting criticized by both sides of the "fence."

:love:

mjules

08-30-2007, 06:29 PM

Can you imagine how it sucked to come out as bisexual and hope to find a date? Quite the opposite of the famous quip about twice as many dates - more like, less than HALF as many dates. Between the homophobes, the lesbians who think bisexuals are going to betray them, and the guys who are ONLY interested 'cuz they think you're gonna let them watch you with another girl or something, AAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

*laughs* Oh, Zerbie. I hadn't even read your comment when I made mine. :love:

BrianB

08-30-2007, 09:30 PM

What a paradox. It's not easy to find a date as a bisexual. The only long-term relationship I have had after coming out as bi' was with another bisexual person. Gay people think that you are fence sitting. Straight people think that you're a sex maniac. Very few people are secure enough to realize that they are the one I choose to be with.

sailaway58

08-30-2007, 09:38 PM

You're making a joke about "can't make a commitment" right?yes, albeit not a very funny one

Zerbie

08-30-2007, 11:18 PM

OMGYES.

Zerbie addressed all of my major concerns after I read the initial post, so I wasn't even going to say anything, but... well, yes. Being bi is difficult, because some people DO see us as having a choice, and no, it's really like having two of your very favorite dishes set down in front of you and being told you can't have both. (Which is why I'm a fan of the idea of polyfidelity, but you wanna talk about being even MORE of an outcast...)

We're each going to have different expressions of our needs, relationships styles, and so on. I like to say, if there's one, there's another - no one is ever the ONLY one. A lot of my best female friends in high school came out later as bisexual and some of them were polyamorous.

It's frustrating for me because a lot of lesbian women refuse to date bisexual women, thinking they'll be left for a man eventually (as if it makes them more likely to be abandoned than if another lesbian woman might abandon them for another woman),

Irony of ironies here. I'm the bisexual one. The first great love of my life identified as lesbian.
And guess what happened?
SHE left ME. . . *for a man.* :mad:

So, yeah. A friend of mine has been joking about buying me a shirt that says "Bisexual Blues: We love everybody and nobody loves us." And while that's an exaggeration, it feels true sometimes. So I'm glad to see that the whole issue has been clarified, because it's oh-so-easy to be paranoid when you're used to getting criticized by both sides of the "fence."
:love:

It does feel true sometimes. But more than anything, I feel invisibilized. In straight company, I'm another straight chick 'cuz I got the hubby and the diamond ring as "evidence." When I'm at LGBT community events, unless someone asks, or I volunteer the word "husband" for some reason, people will sometimes (often? always?) assume I'm lesbian. I figger, the two scenarios make up for each other because all the wrong assumptions cancel each other out. But my favorite incident of assumption was when I briefly met a fellow activist in town, first at a protest which was attended almost exclusively by gays and lesbians, and later at a religion seminar. At the seminar, my husband was at my elbow, and this fellow activist who had seen me at the protest was chatting merrily away with me and made some references to me as a lesbian, while my husband stood right there listening. I just giggled and said "well I'm not really an "anything." :p:lol:

*laughs* Oh, Zerbie. I hadn't even read your comment when I made mine. :love:

See? We didn't even need to confer with one another to get our stories "straight." :p

What a paradox. It's not easy to find a date as a bisexual. The only long-term relationship I have had after coming out as bi' was with another bisexual person. Gay people think that you are fence sitting. Straight people think that you're a sex maniac. Very few people are secure enough to realize that they are the one I choose to be with.

I tell ya! Ain't that the truth!! It was really hard getting a date as an out bisexual, and I was a very cute and sexy 20-something girl. They shoulda been pounding on my doors.:p I suspect that it's even more difficult for bisexual men, since a lot of guys will view a female with a lesbian relationship history as sexy territory, but the converse is not so applicable for how straight women view men. :disagree:

yes, albeit not a very funny one

Don't you worry, Sailor. Maybe we can make commitments, but I for one couldn't figure out WHAT I WAS for a really long time. That's gotta count for some humor, somewhere. :rolleyes:

glbt_equality

08-31-2007, 06:50 AM

Zerbie - you have once again proven to be an invaluable resouce for me, helping, as I form new approaches & ideas, to bounce ideas back & help me in clarifying a position. I would be interested in your take on a rewrite, which I have posted in the tridd (East Texas) forums here:
http://tridd.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=101
(scroll down to "Volume 2").

I am happy also to learn more about many issues faced by bisexuals that I hadn't really considered before, and now more clearly understand how my remarks were initially taken as insensitive. I assure you, however, that my intent was pure.

The phenomenon, interestingly highlighted by the current Senator Craig debacle, is amazing to me in almost every respect... The fact that you can be arrested in an airport for sliding your foot to near the adjacent stall reeks of a "witch hunt." And his repeated insistence that "I am not gay," only serves to make it's antithesis (I AM gay) some kind of enormous indictment. Sen Craig displays all of the dynamics of the conservative bisexual antigay activist I had originally proposed, from being a vocal spokesman against gay rights right down to the apparent embattlement against his own demons (see the Idaho Statesmen article at:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/1264/story/144047.html

I'm just wondering if our understanding of vehement opposition as being an expression of angst among conservative bisexuals might help form an approach in dealing with them. How would we approach the "Focus on the Family" group, for example, armed with the foreknowledge that their extreme bigotry had, at its roots, a basis in their leaders' and members' own sexual orientation?

paul

08-31-2007, 07:35 AM

Wow, this thread just gets curioser and curiouser!!! :lol:

Speaking for me, I do not need to have ongoing relationships with partners of both sexes. I did though need to explore dating relationships with both sexes in my young single days in order to know exactly where I stood, orientationally, and how I function in relationship. Once I knew, the only matter was finding out who my partner would be, and then settling down.

Anyway, I had a VERY hard time coming out as bisexual. From my pov it would have been easier to come out as lesbian. Oh, wait, I DID that. Did that first, then came out to myself, and a year later was finally able to accept that the term "bisexual" appeared to fit. I spent about a decade rejecting the BI label, because I had real problems with it.

Curioser indeed, Zerbie. Now that I've said what I said, I guess I need to clarify some stuff. This is all in the interest of honesty and seeing clearly, the eternal process it seems.

There was a point when I actually called myself (to myself) bisexual. I'll take a coin from the ex-gay bank to try and splain. "Gender confusion." I think that's a real phenomenom, but the ex-gay movement has turned it topsy-turvy. That is to say, by taking a real orientation ("gay") and trying to straighten it out, they've caused a great deal of confusion. I know this first hand, as you know, because up until a year and a half ago I believed they were right. So, it's pretty logical that, at this early juncture, I'm still figuring some things out. I'm just being very honest. I have spent my entire life married to a woman, after all, so I have to be a little suspicious that I might just be a closeted bisexual :D. Still, I do currently identify as "gay" because it seems a pretty safe bet. My wife is the only woman I have ever been with, heck, she's the only woman I ever kissed. My biggest clue, insight, comes from my dream life. When I have 'those' kind of dreams (from the time I started having them as a kid), it's never been with a woman, always a guy. I consider dreams to be where the veil is removed and we can discover what's really there. So, I'm probably not bi, just a mal-adjusted gay.:p

People who are ssa don't just have the ramifications of the closet to deal with. We do all venture forth from the closet. One of the articles of clothing that many of us keep/kept in our closets, for going out in, was/is a straight jacket (i need to copyright that one :lol:).

mjules

08-31-2007, 03:34 PM

a lot of guys will view a female with a lesbian relationship history as sexy territory, but the converse is not so applicable for how straight women view men. :disagree:

Which is just CRAZY, 'cause I've got this thing about boys together. I think it's cute. It's a huge joke at work... there are a couple of guys who are bi there, and one who is out as gay (another whom we all suspect of being gay but who won't admit it... he's also in a very against-homosexuality church, so, we blame that...) and anytime the boys start talking about a boy they think is cute, etc., I'm always encouraging them to "go for it! ...but can I at least watch when you cuddle?"

:lol:

Zerbie

08-31-2007, 03:48 PM

Which is just CRAZY, 'cause I've got this thing about boys together. I think it's cute. It's a huge joke at work... there are a couple of guys who are bi there, and one who is out as gay (another whom we all suspect of being gay but who won't admit it... he's also in a very against-homosexuality church, so, we blame that...) and anytime the boys start talking about a boy they think is cute, etc., I'm always encouraging them to "go for it! ...but can I at least watch when you cuddle?"

:lol:

OMG me too!!!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! I think you're the first other girl I've met who thinks so too. So many girls make that "ew" face at the idea of guy on guy, and I DON'T GET IT!! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? Eh. Not to them. Call me weird, again, but some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Oh but, I wouldn't actually ask my friends to let me watch!!!!!!!!!:eek: :rofl: :disagree:

BrentRichards

08-31-2007, 03:54 PM

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? ... some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Hey, me too! Oh, wait, that doesn't count, does it?

mjules

08-31-2007, 04:54 PM

OMG me too!!!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! I think you're the first other girl I've met who thinks so too. So many girls make that "ew" face at the idea of guy on guy, and I DON'T GET IT!! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? Eh. Not to them. Call me weird, again, but some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Oh but, I wouldn't actually ask my friends to let me watch!!!!!!!!!:eek: :rofl: :disagree:

HEE! Oh man, I wouldn't actually WATCH my friends... it's just a joke about my tastes! :eek:

And there's actually a huge pocket of girls who think boy on boy is hot. (Amusingly enough, a large number of them turn out to be lesbians or bisexual themselves. :lol:) You told me you'd never heard of manga (Japanese comics) before, right? There's this entire subsection of manga called "yaoi" that is all about boy on boy. It can go from very tame (a little kissing) to very XXX-rated, and is a huge phenomenon over in Japan and gaining popularity by leaps and bounds in the US, and most of its fans are girls. Careful if you decide to go exploring, though - while some of it is very good, with delicious story-telling, some of it is... just... NOT. :sick:

(You'd be better off asking someone more experienced for some recommendations. Not that I know anyone like that. :good: :shifty:)

Also, I dunno if you saw the thread in the General Discussion forum about movies? There's this gorgeous German one called Summer Storm that's just amazing, if a little bit sad. (But kind of explicit in places! :rainbow:)

Hee. It's fun to find friends with similar interests... :weee:

Oh and Brent? ...You might count. In an honorary sense. Maybe. :cool:

BrentRichards

08-31-2007, 06:06 PM

Also, I dunno if you saw the thread in the General Discussion forum about movies? There's this gorgeous German one called Summer Storm that's just amazing, if a little bit sad. (But kind of explicit in places! :rainbow:)

Isn't that a GREAT film? I can't tell you how many times I've seen it. Yes, there are some racy scenes, but its so tremendously tender at times, too. Often makes me cry, especially since I know the feeling of falling for a straight best friend and being crushed that they couldn't be physically affectionate (and more) the way I longed for... destroyed more than one best friendship like that in my younger days (and yet, somehow, I could still believe I wasn't REALLY gay ... go figure.

Oh and Brent? ...You might count. In an honorary sense. Maybe. :cool:

Yeah, probably not. A wonderful straight ally woman I know once asked me (hopefully, I think) ... so, you're not bi, are you? The honest answer is: not even a little bit. I'm a Kinsey 6 ... make that a 7! And I'm also definitely not a girl ... I'm not even one of those gay guys who had all female friends and understands women so well, and ... My friends have usually been almost exclusively male, and I'm every bit as bad as the average neanderthal when it comes to "understanding" women. Huh?

tymejumper

08-31-2007, 07:40 PM

Zerbie, you said it very eloquently. Bisexual people can not turn off their attraction for both sexes. The choice come in when we choose to be faithful to our partner. If my partner happens to be the opposite sex that is not hiding. If my partner happens to be a man that doesn't mean I'll quit appreciating an attractive woman.

Troy, it also frustrates me that there are bisexual people that will not stand up and be counted. They have their nice little marriage with their nice job in the nice part of town. However, speaking in generalities about any group of people is dangerous. Many bisexual people are also activists like you.

When I first came out I identified as bisexual, as I have dated both men and women. I found that I prefer women and now identify as lesbian. I actually had to go to therapy to figure out who to identify! how sad is that? I have always identified myself as gay.

The looks a person gets in the gay communtiy when they say they are "bi" is amazing. People think you are cheap, slutty and cant be faithful. They think you are confused and want to savor gay relationships and have hetero privelidge. Actually, it is VERY difficult to be bi as you have 2 closets to come out from, no one accepts you and everyone hates you! Bis have a hard time standing up for gay rights as they are often shunned in the gay community. Did you know some lesbians will not date a bi girl cause they dont trust them to not throw them over for a man? Its actually sad.

Zerbie, I am so glad you are a vocal part of the community and identify as proud and bi. People do not seem to understand that it is not a choice to be atracted to both sexes, it happens. You fall in love with someone and whatever sex they are does not matter. How much more complete could a human be? To be able to look into both sexes for your soulmate is awesome.

We need to understand that sexuality is fluid and we are all along a continum of straight to gay. Some of us are only completely attracted to opposite sex, some only attracted to same sex and the rest fall in between. That scientifically is aproximately 80% of the populace with 10% gay the other 10% straight.

tymejumper

08-31-2007, 07:49 PM

Speaking completely from the outside and with no personal experience, Bisexuality muddies the water a bit when trying to understand the whole Gay thing.
I have always said bisexual's are just people that can't make a commitment.
Don't get mad at me that's just the heterosexual lack of understanding coming out of me.
I tend to agree with Troy but it doesn't effect me the same as some of you which only furthers proof I have know idea what the hell I am talking about. :confused:

No, bisexuals just don't have the tendancy to limit themselves to one sex or the other to find their soulmates. They dont need to have a relashionship with both sexes at once either to be considered bisexual. I actually think that idea was a hetero mans fantasy and it sounded good to sterotype people with so it spread!

rainbow7

08-31-2007, 07:53 PM

. For a bisexual to choose is like saying: "which to you want to keep, your right arm or your left arm."

As Zerbie is trying to explain, it isn't like you have this wonderful choice and you can go either way, rather, you feel a loss if you don't have both. Just like you would have a real void if you were forced to be with a woman, a bisexual person has a very real void if they don't have both.
I think it is harder to be bisexual than it is to be gay in some respects.

Paul,

I'm not sure I understand you. I think this is true for some, but not ALL who identify as bisexual. I agree with Zerbie: can't choose attraction, but we can choose what we act on. Research seems to suggest that a very small minority of the population is right in the middle of the Kinsey scale. For some bisexual people, monogamy works, because one falls in love with and commits to a specific partner, rather than to a gender. The attraction to both sexes is always there, but not everyone has to have partners of both sexes.....though certainly some do seem to.

Polly

tymejumper

08-31-2007, 07:55 PM

u-dog

08-31-2007, 08:03 PM

Then you do not understand, Dave. It ISN'T a choice. We don't choose attraction!! Only whether or not we act upon it.

Sorry I missed this post Zerbie! no I didn't mean that bi-sexual people can choose who they are attracted to but rather that since they are attracted to both genders they could choose who they had relationships with. So homophobic bisexuals who imagine that their experience is universal also imagine that gay people and straight people have a choice about their partners also.

Zerbie

08-31-2007, 08:03 PM

When I first came out I identified as bisexual, as I have dated both men and women. I found that I prefer women and now identify as lesbian. I actually had to go to therapy to figure out who to identify! how sad is that? I have always identified myself as gay.

The looks a person gets in the gay communtiy when they say they are "bi" is amazing. People think you are cheap, slutty and cant be faithful. They think you are confused and want to savor gay relationships and have hetero privelidge. Actually, it is VERY difficult to be bi as you have 2 closets to come out from, no one accepts you and everyone hates you! Bis have a hard time standing up for gay rights as they are often shunned in the gay community. Did you know some lesbians will not date a bi girl cause they dont trust them to not throw them over for a man? Its actually sad.

Zerbie, I am so glad you are a vocal part of the community and identify as proud and bi. People do not seem to understand that it is not a choice to be atracted to both sexes, it happens. You fall in love with someone and whatever sex they are does not matter. How much more complete could a human be? To be able to look into both sexes for your soulmate is awesome.

We need to understand that sexuality is fluid and we are all along a continum of straight to gay. Some of us are only completely attracted to opposite sex, some only attracted to same sex and the rest fall in between. That scientifically is aproximately 80% of the populace with 10% gay the other 10% straight.

Nice. :applause::award: Thank you Tyme, this helps a great deal. :)

I've been feeling frustrated with parts of this thread where that godawful word "choice" keeps coming back, again and again. I feel like, "Hey I just TOLD you, aren't you listening?" The choice is not over orientation, it's over whether or not to FOLLOW when the orientation leads you down the socially prohibited path. Same choice a gay person has, although with the merciful difference that a bisexual CAN still find an opposite sex partner and be responsive. THAT is the critical difference, and that's where this entire conversation pivots.

Troy - the re-write is much better. Thank you. It makes a real difference that you don't let readers think you are universalizing about bisexuals. You are very dear to me: thank you for your re-write and your kind remarks. :love:

Ya know. I love BEING bisexual but I hate TELLING people I'm bisexual. As I said (two years ago?) to Awediot, it's MUCH easier telling straight folk I'm bisexual than it is telling gay folk. I'm scared to death of being rejected by my gay friends and colleagues, so I'm much more likely to stay closeted around them. Can't tell you how many times I've let them label me as straight without clarifying, because I'm afraid they'll change their minds about me if I tell them this tidbit. I've even backed away from using gender pronouns when mentioning ex-girlfriends.

As for activism, I've dropped out twice in past years, before because of either something that was directly said about bisexuals being "traitors," or because of a fear that someone would say so. It was like, I have all this passion and energy for the cause, but gay people don't want me, so why am I killing myself for a bunch of people who don't want me around?

I thought I dropped out of activism for good when I got married. The sense that little straight-acting heterosexual privileged me didn't belong anywhere in the gay community was really strong - in my head. Little did I know I would immerse more DEEPLY after that! It was when those marriage amendments swept the elections in 2004 that I thought, Oh my god, that's MY community they're doing this to, I don't give a rat's tail if they want me or not, I'm doing something!!!! I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

rainbow7

08-31-2007, 08:24 PM

I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

Zerbie, you SO belong here! If you don't, NO ONE does....your faithfulness and energy are truly appreciated, and I'm glad you didn't drop out permanently!

Polly

mjules

08-31-2007, 08:41 PM

Isn't that a GREAT film? I can't tell you how many times I've seen it. Yes, there are some racy scenes, but its so tremendously tender at times, too. Often makes me cry, especially since I know the feeling of falling for a straight best friend and being crushed that they couldn't be physically affectionate (and more) the way I longed for... destroyed more than one best friendship like that in my younger days (and yet, somehow, I could still believe I wasn't REALLY gay ... go figure.

You know, even the racier scenes don't really bother me. (But then, I tend to be very open towards such things.) I mean, it isn't demeaning and pornographic (in the sense that pornos are usually all about the fake physicality and little about the emotional or relationship side), it's actually very beautiful and sensual. (And, okay, yes. Hot.)

And I felt the same pain... my first love was my mostly-straight best friend. At the time, had we had any concept of what homosexuality even *was* (trust me, when I say I grew up sheltered, I mean it) we might have been each others' first lovers. We used to lie in bed, tangled up in each other, and lament that one of us wasn't a boy. But it never even occurred to us to kiss. Now, years later, I identify as bisexual and she identifies as very, very straight. It still makes me a little sad.

Yeah, probably not. A wonderful straight ally woman I know once asked me (hopefully, I think) ... so, you're not bi, are you? The honest answer is: not even a little bit. I'm a Kinsey 6 ... make that a 7! And I'm also definitely not a girl ... I'm not even one of those gay guys who had all female friends and understands women so well, and ... My friends have usually been almost exclusively male, and I'm every bit as bad as the average neanderthal when it comes to "understanding" women. Huh?

Hahaha! That's great. :D I am definitely smack dab in the middle of the Kinsey scale, which has been a source of frustration for one reason or another for years... mostly because when I was struggling with the "morality" of homosexuality, it bothered me that I wasn't only attracted to guys, and then once I got over that, I dealt with the same issues Zerbie has been talking about, of being afraid to come out as bi to the GLBT community for fear of being rejected, but also not able to lie about the fact that I'm not lesbian, as I'm not *solely* (or even mostly) attracted to women. It's split right down the middle.

Zerbie

08-31-2007, 08:43 PM

Paul,

I'm not sure I understand you. I think this is true for some, but not ALL who identify as bisexual. I agree with Zerbie: can't choose attraction, but we can choose what we act on. Research seems to suggest that a very small minority of the population is right in the middle of the Kinsey scale. For some bisexual people, monogamy works, because one falls in love with and commits to a specific partner, rather than to a gender. The attraction to both sexes is always there, but not everyone has to have partners of both sexes.....though certainly some do seem to.

Polly

The above represents what I've observed of human sexuality as well. The continuum is the fairest description, as it comes closer to what can happen in real life than two, or even three, distinct categories can.

I so got into Queer as Folk when Brian and Justin got it on. It was SO hot I could'nt believe it. I still prefer sex with a woman, but I do so love to look at men! LOL LOL:lol::lol::lol:

:) Is there any other reason for watching that show? ;)
Though my favorite character was always Emmett. :love: And I live in terror of turning into Debbie someday. :lol:

Sorry I missed this post Zerbie! no I didn't mean that bi-sexual people can choose who they are attracted to but rather that since they are attracted to both genders they could choose who they had relationships with. So homophobic bisexuals who imagine that their experience is universal also imagine that gay people and straight people have a choice about their partners also.

Ah. You did understand. Sigh. It's that darned "choice" word muddying things up again. Maybe we should put it this way: bisexuals are, among the Gs Ls and Bs, uniquely equipped to make a quick retreat into heterosexual privilege yet still be able to have a fulfilling relationship.

Now that we have very clear open air in this thread, it seems like a safe time to admit something. Troy could really be onto something about bisexuals assuming that gays can avoid same-sex relationships without cost.

When I was a very little girl, I thought that all "homosexuals" were capable of loving either men OR women, since that's how I was, and because it didn't occur to me that other queer folk were not all bisexual. Gasp! :eek:
Proving Troy's point, am I? Well, let's see. . . that was in kindergarten. By about age 10, I had figured out that gay people were uniquely responsive only with ONE sex. And since they had no choice in the matter, it seemed all the more important that they not be denied the chance to love and be loved. So, I really don't "get" why anyone - I don't care what sexuality you are - would tell gay people that they have to change or erase an intrinsic part of their own nature and stifle their ability to give and receive love. What could be more cruel than denying love to someone for an entire lifetime?

Zerbie

08-31-2007, 08:51 PM

Ylso not able to lie about the fact that I'm not lesbian, as I'm not *solely* (or even mostly) attracted to women. It's split right down the middle.

Me too, pretty much.

Now, this movie you and Brent are talkin' about - it's starting to sound really, reeeeeally good. :lol: Yummy love scenes? Okay - this movie doesn't have any Nazis in it, does it? (so many have, and I so can't watch that stuff)
If it's Nazi-free, I'm renting it.

mjules

08-31-2007, 08:55 PM

Me too, pretty much.

Now, this movie you and Brent are talkin' about - it's starting to sound really, reeeeeally good. :lol: Yummy love scenes? Okay - this movie doesn't have any Nazis in it, does it? (so many have, and I so can't watch that stuff)
If it's Nazi-free, I'm renting it.

Ooooo, it IS reeeeaaalllly good. And since we've been talking about it, I am thinking that a stop into Blockbuster on my way home from work tomorrow is in order, since it's been a while since I saw it and I watched it three times in a row last time I rented it. :lol: Maybe I should just buy it already.

And no, no Nazis! Fairly modern setting, I believe, and has to do with rowing teams. :love: I can't wait 'til you see it and tell me what you think!

glbt_equality

09-01-2007, 06:34 AM

As for activism, I've dropped out twice in past years, before because of either something that was directly said about bisexuals being "traitors," or because of a fear that someone would say so. It was like, I have all this passion and energy for the cause, but gay people don't want me, so why am I killing myself for a bunch of people who don't want me around?

I thought I dropped out of activism for good when I got married. The sense that little straight-acting heterosexual privileged me didn't belong anywhere in the gay community was really strong - in my head. Little did I know I would immerse more DEEPLY after that! It was when those marriage amendments swept the elections in 2004 that I thought, Oh my god, that's MY community they're doing this to, I don't give a rat's tail if they want me or not, I'm doing something!!!! I not only signed myself up for LGBT organizational memberships, I signed my husband up as my partner. Even so, I was terrified the first time I went to a gay rights community forum after I got married. I was like: Do I still belong here??

Zerbie - I think that the most anyone could ask of any of us is to be a "part-time" or "now & again" activist -- and hats off to you for the work you have done. It would be hypocritical of me to indict anyone for taking a "break" from activism after I have spent most of my own life on the sidelines. Moreover, I could have just as easily said that gay people don't show up at meetings -- because by and large, people who aren't personally affected by bigotry tend to wonder what all the fuss is about (the "fuss" about LGBT rights).

The heart of my personal revelation had more to do with the "Anti-Gay" activists... and that I'm wondering if their activism might not be fueled in large part by their own personal sexual identity embattlements.

Wouldn't it be remarkable to discover the people we are debating are, in reality, themselves trying to keep at bay their own demons and temptations. Maybe Senator Craig and James Dobson and many (most?) others are hoping, in the way of affirmation, that their struggle against recognizing the humanity of our community will somehow provide them with the strength to keep their own "straight masks" firmly in place!

... and how would the foreknowledge of such a remarkable dynamic inform our own activism? How different would be our approach if we understood, for example that -- "of course he will believe that my lifestyle was a choice... because for him, it was a choice!"

Anyway - that's my thought for the day. And I love the discussion all this has stirred. Of course, there may be no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't it be incredible to discover that the 80% of all people are bisexual? Then we would really have to ask how 90% of a population (LGBT) could be so oppressed by 10% (totally straight) for so long. Now there's some food for thought!

Peace & love, Troy

sailaway58

09-01-2007, 06:44 AM

Anyway - that's my thought for the day. And I love the discussion all this has stirred. Of course, there may be no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't it be incredible to discover that the 80% of all people are bisexual? Then we would really have to ask how 90% of a population (LGBT) could be so oppressed by 10% (totally straight) for so long. Now there's some food for thought!

Peace & love, Troy
I find no comfort here. :disagree:

Zerbie

09-01-2007, 11:30 AM

Zerbie - I think that the most anyone could ask of any of us is to be a "part-time" or "now & again" activist -- and hats off to you for the work you have done. It would be hypocritical of me to indict anyone for taking a "break" from activism after I have spent most of my own life on the sidelines. Moreover, I could have just as easily said that gay people don't show up at meetings -- because by and large, people who aren't personally affected by bigotry tend to wonder what all the fuss is about (the "fuss" about LGBT rights).

The heart of my personal revelation had more to do with the "Anti-Gay" activists... and that I'm wondering if their activism might not be fueled in large part by their own personal sexual identity embattlements.

Wouldn't it be remarkable to discover the people we are debating are, in reality, themselves trying to keep at bay their own demons and temptations. Maybe Senator Craig and James Dobson and many (most?) others are hoping, in the way of affirmation, that their struggle against recognizing the humanity of our community will somehow provide them with the strength to keep their own "straight masks" firmly in place!

... and how would the foreknowledge of such a remarkable dynamic inform our own activism? How different would be our approach if we understood, for example that -- "of course he will believe that my lifestyle was a choice... because for him, it was a choice!"

Anyway - that's my thought for the day. And I love the discussion all this has stirred. Of course, there may be no way of knowing for sure, but wouldn't it be incredible to discover that the 80% of all people are bisexual? Then we would really have to ask how 90% of a population (LGBT) could be so oppressed by 10% (totally straight) for so long. Now there's some food for thought!

Peace & love, Troy

Troy,

Actually would it would be rather typical if many of the most virulent anti-gays turn out to be gay or bisexual themselves. Denying an inherent trait that is shared with a socially despised group is a pattern that re-appears throughout social history.

So is the minority oppressing the majority. Look at European history.

I don't expect to be faulted for having dropped out of activism for a couple years. Most of my friends never get involved in the first place! I was sharing the fact that there have been times when the biphobia in the community was enough of an issue to me that I threw up my hands and walked away thinking, okay folks, I'm outta here. 'Bye.

As to it informing activism, we aren't going to have that answer (to an adversary's personal struggles or internalized homophobia) up front, so the best anyone can do is frame the issue appropriately all the time. Homophobia is a problem that needs to be solved. Do our best to solve it, generally speaking. I don't see how knowing for a fact if Dobson or whomever has had feelings for men could possibly change our responses to his actions, since we have to respond to action, not presumed thoughts. Muddy 'nough?

tymejumper

09-01-2007, 12:05 PM

I find no comfort here. :disagree:

I know for a fact by having a great amount of bi friends that there are alot more bi people that do not mention their sexuality at all. They are with oposite sex partners, so the subject does not come up.

I think what gives bi people a bad name are the ones that go out on their partners and cheat and have sex with others but claim they "arn't gay". The fact that they are CHEATERS and UNTRUSTWORTHY gives all bi people a bad name, especially those whom are faithful and happy with their mate. It makes them seem that they cant commit. That is bullcrap in my opinion.

It saddens me that the younger bi kids are stuck with this society based lable that they have to date both sexes to be "really" bi, or have 2 relationships at once, or cheat on their partner or sleep around etc to fit with what society has told them is truly bisexual. The best thing for all of our community would be for STRONG and SECURE bisexual people to come out and show them that the stereotypes are NOT right. Show that they have monogomous unions, are decent people in society and raise children as functional (or dysfunctional) as the straight community. The bi portion of our community has a long way to go, they are where the gay/lesbian community was 20 years ago.

It would only help to have the support of other gay/lesbian people also. How can WE forget how it was for us when people thought all gay men had AIDS and were promiscous, that all lesbians were Stone Butches that played sports and didnt want children, and we could not raise kids, be well adjusted etc. We have been there and it is unforgiveable that we would exclude others based on the same prejudged ideas we ourselves have faced.

I feel here(the forum) at least it is better than the gay community at large, but I live in Grand Rapids, Mich. and we are years out of touch with the times! We need to stop looking at the SEX of whom we love and more into the soul of the ONES we love.

glbt_equality

09-02-2007, 06:09 AM

As to it informing activism, we aren't going to have that answer (to an adversary's personal struggles or internalized homophobia) up front, so the best anyone can do is frame the issue appropriately all the time. Homophobia is a problem that needs to be solved. Do our best to solve it, generally speaking. I don't see how knowing for a fact if Dobson or whomever has had feelings for men could possibly change our responses to his actions, since we have to respond to action, not presumed thoughts. Muddy 'nough?

I see your point. And perhaps I was one of the few people who hadn't already presumed that the stongest ant-gay voices may be borne out of their own personal struggles with what they consider to be "abberant" same-sex attractions.

And even though you are of course correct in sying we may never be sure, in our own activism, who is and who isn't bisexual (or gay), I may begin to make that presumption....

It will inform my activism if I view opposing voices as being borne out of tortured souls... and coming from people who may have more lifestyle choices than they're readily to willingly admit. It will inform my activism in that I may recognize the futility of debating "choice" at all (though "choice" will certainly remain among their most vocalized issues with us). It will also inform my activism in my very understanding of the fact that they may have these choices they claim we all have.

I believe that, in any debate, the motivation of one's "opponent" is the single most valuable bit of information in forming a response. This may not be so remarkable to others, but for me it is fundamental. Undestanding this dynamic changes much in my understanding of our struggle for equality and it is simply this: That the voices speaking against my rights are in reality speaking in order to maintain and preserve the personal walls and masks that protect the speakers' own families! The "Family Values" we hear so much about may very well involve the specific preservation of the personal families of people like James Dobson... so that he doesn't suffer the fate of people like Senator Craig.

Of course their families are "under attack." But they are not under attack by us... they are under attack by their own impulses and attractions and... ultimately.. by their own systems of ultra-conservative enforcements.

Like I said... all this may be "old hat" to many... but to me it seems like a beam of sunshine through the fog... illuminating much about the "conservative agenda" that I've never quite understood.

Progo35

09-02-2007, 09:28 AM

I think that what the conservatives are worried about (in terms of the people that I respect) are the other causes that have, in a way, used the gay community. For instance, as I've said before, many of the organizations that help gay people also support things like giving parents less say in what their children are exposed to at school, getting rid of any kind of religious expression in the public sphere, etc. In responding to that, the conservative approach has been to take what they've observed and assume that the gay community agrees with other causes that they definitely (and, I feel, legitimately) don't want-ever. So, basically, what I think people are afraid of is that gay rights will become a pawn for individuals who want to force what some call a "secular progressive" way of life on America. I think that one of the major ways for the gay community to combat this is to make it clear that many hold conservative principles and don't want to see our culture go that way, either. I think that once more conservatives see people in the gay community as allies in preserving notions of basic right and wrong, the better off everyone will be. That's one of the reasons that I wish that, for instance, James Dobson had sat down with the people who went to Focus on the Family this year. That could have sparked some serious and helpful discussion between the two, but Dobson chose to forgo that opportunity and have the two people arrested, which is too bad.

glbt_equality

09-07-2007, 02:57 PM

Thanks to everyone here for once again helping to work through the proverbial tip of what may very well be a GLBT iceberg. Here's the current version, for your approval. I'd like to especially thank those who, like Zerbie and u-dog, were so generous as to offer the benefit of doubt and the kindness of gentle advice.

Thanks also to Zerbie for opening a separate and needed discussion about bisexuality -- the fruits of which may ultimately help many of us to better understand the issues of this huge and hugely misunderstood segment of our population.

Note:

This essay, in its original form, caused quite a stir among members of our community -- and has been dramatically revised since its creation. I would like to apologize to those who found the original language to be divisive or offensive. It was, in retrospect, overly broad and oversimplified.

In particular, words such as “choice,” “lifestyle,” and “orientation” seem to have different – even contradictory – uses and meanings within our own community, and become quickly divisive. I therefore ask the reader grant some leeway to the current incarnation, with the understanding that it may ultimately be impossible to please all of us.

To be clear, this is an essay about hypocrisy, and as such is about the few and not the many. Further discussion about it has widened my own perception of bisexuality and the plights of our often-divided community.

Our understanding of bisexuality and all the issues it entails; along with our unflagging insistence on complete inclusion of bisexual people -- can only serve to bolster our numbers, thereby strengthening our position in the quest for complete equality and recognition as human beings with human rights.

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

Much of the rhetoric surrounding the issues of LGBT equality has to do with the topic of “choice.” Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, there remains a large vein of extreme conservatism (the Religious Right and the Republican Party) who insist that a person’s sexual orientation is determined by a decision made by each individual.

How can that be? How can so many so-called intelligent people simply ignore all that evidence and all of our sworn statements and all of our testimonials that we, too, would have probably “chosen” to be straight… if that had only been an option for us. The idea that any persecuted class of citizen would “choose” to be persecuted is itself such a ludicrous proposition that it begs the question, “Why are we still arguing about choice?”

“Choice” is, after all, a central tenet to continued denial of human rights. The “choice” between straight and gay becomes, in the minds of conservatives, the choice between good and evil, and becomes therefore the singular point from which they are empowered to deny our civil liberties. Take away the issue of “choice,” and you take away their rationale for punishment. Take away the issue of “choice,” and they would have to start treating us like human beings.

The LGBT community, in all our activities and lobbying efforts, seem to pay little attention to the “B” in “LGBT.” I’ve heard some bisexuals refer to themselves as “invisible,” and many seem to feel (and perhaps they are) mistreated within our community as the “stepchildren” of the current equal rights movement. To be fair, many of us seem to have our own issues of prejudice and have difficulty “placing” bisexuality in the realm of loyalties. This divisive trend makes little sense to me, since I’ve found bisexual people to be among the strongest advocates of the LGBT movement.

In 1948, noted biologist and entomologist Alfred Kinsey introduced the “Kinsey Scale” suggesting that human sexuality can be measured on a continuum that ranges from 0 (completely heterosexual) to 7 (completely gay/lesbian), with the numbers 1 through 6 representing varying degrees of bisexuality. It isn’t surprising, therefore, that some have suggested that the majority of all people may be described as “bisexual,” dividing our ranks into approximately 10% gays/ lesbians/transgendered people, 10% completely straight people, and 80% bisexuals. While there may never be a way to know for sure, this 80% estimate for bisexuality may provide us with some important questions.

Firstly, if our bisexual numbers ring in at anywhere near 80%, why would any sane activist try to alienate such a powerhouse of a demographic? Perhaps rather than view bisexuals as “stepchildren,” we would more prudently fully embrace all the dynamics surrounding bisexuality.

Secondly, this realization makes me wonder how 90% of our population (the sum total of the LGBT community) could be so long and so well oppressed by the remaining 10%! This second question provides the meat for the remainder of this essay.

So I asked myself why this might be – how can so many be subdued by so few -- and the answer takes us right back to the topic of “choice.” To follow me on this point, you’re going to have to crawl with me into the conscience of the ultra-conservatives, because they don’t see “choice” the same way we do. We see “choice” as the ability to choose a sexual orientation – and of course we know this is nonsense. But the conservatives, claiming they don’t believe in “sexual orientations,” use the word “lifestyle” instead. This simple exchanging of words already hints that choice is an option, because “lifestyle” sounds easier to change than “orientation,” which sounds more permanent. It then becomes a simple matter to use the word “choice” as the ability to choose which “lifestyle” to lead, straight or gay (read “good” or “evil”).

About 20 years ago, I began to become politically astute – a process that involved paying closer attention to the news, and discovered the following trend: Every few months, another “straight” conservative, antigay bigot would get busted for some type of homosexual activity. These cases are always remarkable for their hypocrisy, because it seems the louder they scream against gay rights, the worse kind of homosexual turmoil that follows. As is the most recent case with Senator Craig, they are leaders, either political or religious; they are family men (or women); and they are extremely anti-gay (up until the day they’re busted, that is). So what’s the deal? What’s really going on here? Are they gay or are they straight?

Perhaps they’re part of the larger (80%) demographic. And while this may seem repugnant to some (if I was bisexual, I wouldn’t want to claim them, either), if you’ll humor me for a few moments… I think I can make a good case for this possibility.

In a perfect world, it would likely be healthiest for all of us to accept that many (perhaps most) people DO have some degree of flexibility -- a dual sexual orientation that encompasses both gay and straight sensibilities. While few people (and certainly not me) would suggest anyone can choose who they will ultimately love, some bisexuals may nonetheless have the luxury to “pick” which sexual orientation to practice, whether to live as a practicing homosexual or a practicing heterosexual – or both at once.

Think about it… if you had a choice… if you were bisexual, and could chose between full equality (opposite-sex partner) or being a member of the persecuted class (same-sex partner), which would you choose?

Of course, none of this is intended to detract from the many, many bisexual people who are among our ranks, nor is it an indictment of any person who chooses for her/himself the kinder, gentler path... yet it does provide a possible reason why we don’t have more bisexuals among our ranks, joining in the good fight for equality. Maybe it is because it was easier for many to simply to make the choice to act “straight,” and voila… the issue no longer affects them… they become immune to the slings and arrows and religious and social and even physical violence directed toward the LGBT community.

Once I recognized this dynamic, an even more amazing truth hit me so squarely between the eyes, that it almost knocked me out of my chair! I was sitting here, wondering about those people who – in spite of all this overwhelming evidence – continue to insist that being gay is a choice. These people are terrified that recognizing gay humanity will cause in our country a gay “epidemic”… where all sorts of formerly “straight” people will begin “choosing” to act “gay.” The fear that making gay “ok” will therefore destroy the very fabric of the American family… that we’ll all start running around naked and making love in the streets… that cats and dogs will start sleeping together… “It’ll be anarchy, I tell you!”

Who would think such a thing? Who would honestly believe that it’s a simple matter of choice in spite of all the evidence? Well, I believe the most likely candidates may be found among the ranks of the near-forgotten “B” in “GLBT,” among our bisexual brothers and sisters. Who else could “know” beyond a shadow of doubt that our “apparent orientation” is a choice but those among us for whom it actually IS a choice?

It is ironic to me that, in spite of our inclusion of bisexuals in our ongoing struggle toward freedom, that a few bisexual people, in addition to choosing the “straight” path, have also chosen to be among our most prolific adversaries – spewing hate from pulpit and judicial bench, from pen and from stage… perhaps even bringing themselves to believe that we are all, like them, blessed with the ability to make our “apparent orientation” a simple matter of choice. So some of the people we are trying to help liberate are also the same people who are “hell-bent” on subduing our liberty.

The dynamic is all around us, as we see preachers and “straight” Republican congressmen getting busted for illicit gay sex acts in airport restrooms, we can’t help but start to ask why those who shout most loudly against our liberties seem to be trying foremost to keep their own “demons” at bay….

Perhaps I was one of the few people who hadn't already presumed that the strongest ant-gay voices might be borne out of their own personal struggles with what they consider to be "aberrant" same-sex attractions. But even though we may never be sure, in our own activism, who is and who isn't bisexual (or gay), I may begin to make that presumption....

It will inform my activism if I view opposing voices as being born out of tortured souls... and coming from people who may have more choices than they're readily to willingly admit. It will inform my activism in that I may recognize the futility of debating "choice" at all (though "choice" will certainly remain among their most vocalized issues with us). It will also inform my activism in my understanding of the fact that they may have the choices they claim we all have.

I believe that, in any debate, the motivation of one's "opponent" is the single most valuable bit of information in forming a response. This may not be so remarkable to others, but for me it is fundamental. Understanding this dynamic changes much in my understanding of our struggle for equality -- and it is simply this: That the voices speaking against my rights are in reality speaking in order to maintain and preserve the personal walls and masks that protect the speakers' own families! The "Family Values" we hear so much about may very well involve the specific preservation of the personal families of people like James Dobson (Focus on the Family)... so that he doesn't suffer the fate of people like Senator Craig.

Of course, their families are "under attack." But they are not under attack by us... they are under attack by their own impulses and attractions and… ultimately… by their own systems of ultra-conservative enforcements.

I say, “Enough!” I happen to be a gay man, but I don’t presume to believe or preach the ridiculous notion that all men are therefore gay. So if you happen to be a conservative, repressed bisexual, we’re simply asking that you don’t make the ludicrous assumption that all humans are similarly oriented. I’ll make a deal with you, Senator Craig and James Dobson… I’ll accept your bisexuality – I’ll accept the notion that you really can choose – if you accept the fact that I can’t. How’s that for a deal?

Maybe if more of us can start to accept the notion that humans are created with a variety of qualities, we can all start to get along better.

-- Troy Carlyle

This article also available in the tridd Library:
http://www.tridd.com/index_files/information_research_document_library.htm

Zerbie

09-07-2007, 11:09 PM

Hiya Troy. :wave:

I like your additions. Best, I liked the change to your final paragraph (that was the one line that made me respond to the original as I did.)

I've heard of "bisexual guilt," that is, where the bi person feels like, hey it's so unfair to my gay/lesbian friends that I get heterosexual privilege! so they throw themselves deeply into activism projects. I guess one can go either way about going either way, huh? :p

tdogg

09-08-2007, 12:27 AM

OMG me too!!!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:
I think man on man action is really hot sexy stuff! I think you're the first other girl I've met who thinks so too. So many girls make that "ew" face at the idea of guy on guy, and I DON'T GET IT!! If one is hot, two is hotter, right? Eh. Not to them. Call me weird, again, but some of those movies with boy kissing boy scenes, - ROWR!

Ok, so well...you two aren't the only ones. My partner quite enjoys the boys herself. We 'fight' over movies - I want the lesbian films, she wants to watch the boys (ok, don't get TOO excited, not talking porn here :lol:, mostly not anyway:eek:). I DO have a lot of catching up to do still. Finally coming out to myself a few short years ago made me feel like Dorothy waking up in Munchkin land. Everything was in beautiful living 3D Kodak color! I'm still soaking it all in.

Thanks for such a great thread on bisexuality. I think you all did a great job of sharing your feelings and emotions on this, and educating us. I sometimes think that bisexuals (gosh, sounds like a label here???) have the whole world as their oyster. Men AND women! But then, when I listen to my bisexual friends here, I realize that they are no less accustomed to the same stresses, fears, hurt and prejudice that we are. Even more so.

Sharing each other like this helps us all to realize that we aren't labels, stereotypes or a figment of someone's imagination. We are all real, unique, worthy and beautiful individuals no matter where our sexual attractions and orientation might lie. This is why it is so important that ALL OF US take an active part in activism, even if it means sharing yourself with others. We have to make it real, sometimes even to ourselves and our community (all GLBT). I'm so glad for everyone here, and thanks for sharing such intimate emotions and experiences to help everyone be more enlightened.

Sailaway, don't worry about getting it right now. Just keepin readin'. Sometimes, there's really nothing to figure out, you just reach a point where you accept, approve, love and don't have to understand every nuance. :D

Not to change the subject, but I just had a thought - has anyone heard from Vanessa lately? I know she is very busy and said she wouldn't have much time for computering...just wondering how V is doing... :love:

tymejumper

05-29-2008, 06:48 PM

Ok, so well...you two aren't the only ones. My partner quite enjoys the boys herself. We 'fight' over movies - I want the lesbian films, she wants to watch the boys (ok, don't get TOO excited, not talking porn here :lol:, mostly not anyway:eek:).

I love my guy on guy action. I admit it. If they look good and are cute to boot, double fun! I even had to tell Ellie that I get to keep Wolverine on X-men(Hugh Jackman is hot as Wolverine, maybe it's the leather) I just enjoy looking. I enjoy looking at a beautiful woman(Kristina Loken) and I don't get that tingle with men like I do when I see a beautiful woman, so that's how I decided I was lesbian not Bi. My ex-girlfriend said she would not label herself, she could not guarantee that she would never date a man again nor have sex with one.(no one can guarantee things in life) but she considered herself a lesbian and did not go looking for men to sleep with. I think that is why I find it amazing that some gay people say that "bi's have a choice, and hetero priveledge" and also "bi is not gay" As far as I am concerned, you desire and are attracted to your own sex, you are gay!:lol:

NathanATX

05-30-2008, 02:21 AM

Rats. You are way to cute for me to disagree with Troy, sigh.

I feel pretty safe here at soulforce, so I'll let you in on a secret. I identify as "gay." I've come out, at huge expense, as "gay." But I sometimes fear I might be "bisexual." That's bisexual, not ambisextrous. I say "fear" because I have never had an opportunity for a ltr to actually see for myself. I do know I'm mostly gay, the evidence is all there, but there's enough to make me question also. I actually fear being bisexual because many see bisexual people as people who have a choice. For a bisexual to choose is like saying: "which to you want to keep, your right arm or your left arm."

As Zerbie is trying to explain, it isn't like you have this wonderful choice and you can go either way, rather, you feel a loss if you don't have both. Just like you would have a real void if you were forced to be with a woman, a bisexual person has a very real void if they don't have both.

I think it is harder to be bisexual than it is to be gay in some respects.

You're totally reading my mind. :)

Lately, I've been saying I'm bi-curious. I know I'm mostly gay, but an itsy bit bi...

I'm very hesitant to explore the bisexuality aspect because I am really in touch with how overwhelmingly gay... (I know, I know)... I am. Would it be fair/right/ethical to explore that with a woman when I KNOW that I am much more powerfully/romantically/sexually drawn to men?

However, I've been reading.... :) My latest book is on bisexual spirituality called "Blessed Bi Spirit." It's fascinating, but of 30 or so chapters only three are written by men, so I'm looking for more balanced bi books.

Interesting stuff, huh? :) :love:

paul

05-30-2008, 07:53 AM

You're totally reading my mind. :)

Lately, I've been saying I'm bi-curious. I know I'm mostly gay, but an itsy bit bi...

I'm very hesitant to explore the bisexuality aspect because I am really in touch with how overwhelmingly gay... (I know, I know)... I am. Would it be fair/right/ethical to explore that with a woman when I KNOW that I am much more powerfully/romantically/sexually drawn to men?

However, I've been reading.... :) My latest book is on bisexual spirituality called "Blessed Bi Spirit." It's fascinating, but of 30 or so chapters only three are written by men, so I'm looking for more balanced bi books.

Interesting stuff, huh? :) :love:

Nathan (great new pic, btw...you look terrific in red),

Yes, it is "interesting stuff." One of the things I find most interesting is how reality will often call 'truth' into question. As a person who came from a very strict fundamentalist Christian way of thinking, my modus operandi had always been to try and fit reality into the one size fits all fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible. But, I found I kept coming up against reality. What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Well, mostly bisexuality flies in the face of monogamy... yet another sacred cow to slay.

It's not so much of a problem for me since I no longer try to fit "stuff" into a fundamentalist mindset, indeed, I consider the Bible one of many sacred texts written by people trying to figure life out, just as we are. I find I am much more at peace about accepting reality when I don't have laws carved in stone. The rule of love, alive vs. static, works very well I think. I think if we could all live by it, things like bisexuality wouldn't get us all conflicted with ourselves and others. :love:
paul

Zerbie

05-30-2008, 09:24 AM

You're totally reading my mind. :)

Lately, I've been saying I'm bi-curious. I know I'm mostly gay, but an itsy bit bi...

I'm very hesitant to explore the bisexuality aspect because I am really in touch with how overwhelmingly gay... (I know, I know)... I am. Would it be fair/right/ethical to explore that with a woman when I KNOW that I am much more powerfully/romantically/sexually drawn to men?

:) :love:

Nate, I think you are totally brave to discuss this openly.

The only thing I can think of being unfair would be if you kept a partner in the dark about this sort of question being on your mind, which I cannot imagine you doing. Exploring relationship only makes sense.

I dated both men and women when I was single. Y'know what? I wish I had understood at the time that, yes, I was bisexual. Instead I flip-flopped, coming out as lesbian when I dated girls and pretending to be (or thinking I had been confused, and really *was*) straight when I dated boys. That ultimately didn't turn out to work so great, in hindsight, - but I was young and scared out of my mind. You have a great deal more maturity and courage than that. You will know what is fair and what is ethical. I trust that about you, Nate.

mostly bisexuality flies in the face of monogamy... yet another sacred cow to slay.

paul

Can we clarify that statement? It does not at all apply to me, and I get irritated at the poor people who have been led to believe that bisexual is a behavior pattern rather than an orientation.

You and I talked privately about whether there might be two "types" of bisexuals. Perhaps that point needs to be raised and considered publicly as well. (I"m really close to biting off the head of the next person who suggests that if I'm not having sex with women outside my marriage to my husband, that I am not really bisexual because I am not "practicing." (That word out to evoke shades of right-wingers labeling some "practicing" homosexuals." :mad:)

paul

05-30-2008, 11:03 AM

Can we clarify that statement? It does not at all apply to me, and I get irritated at the poor people who have been led to believe that bisexual is a behavior pattern rather than an orientation.

You and I talked privately about whether there might be two "types" of bisexuals. Perhaps that point needs to be raised and considered publicly as well. (I"m really close to biting off the head of the next person who suggests that if I'm not having sex with women outside my marriage to my husband, that I am not really bisexual because I am not "practicing." (That word out to evoke shades of right-wingers labeling some "practicing" homosexuals." :mad:)

:eek: :lol::eek::lol: please don't bite my head off Zerbie :lol::eek::lol:

Ohhhh, I knew I should have edited that. Okay. One can be gay and married to the opposite sex, one can be bi and married to the same or opposite sex, in an exclusive, "monogamous" relationship with someone. I know you are not a "practicing" bisexual... you're a professional :).

Being GLBT is about much more than sex, who we are sleeping with. In my book, sex is the smaller percentage of the equation, though honestly, it can make the most noise sometimes when I'm horny.

Zerbie

05-30-2008, 11:46 AM

:eek: :lol::eek::lol: please don't bite my head off Zerbie :lol::eek::lol:

:pirate::borg: (Gee, for some reason this website doesn't have many violent emoticons. . . :p:lol:)

. I know you are not a "practicing" bisexual... you're a professional :).

:eek::eek:

sex is the smaller percentage of the equation, though honestly, it can make the most noise sometimes when I'm horny.

:eek:Where's an emoticon for covering one's ears?) :lol:
:p
Just kiddin' ya. I understand. :love:

andrewlittle

06-08-2008, 07:57 AM

I read Troy's initial post and was intrigued. I saw some of the early comments and understood both the support for and the critique of what had been written. I felt decidedly unqualified to enter into the mix on this, though. And, now, I wonder why I felt that way. Many others have said it before, but I think part of the problem is the "sexual" part of the identifiers - actually, it may be that identifiers are used period.

A long time ago, I wrote a little bit about the "continuum" and how I perceived it. For refresher, if it's of any interest, see here: http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=15153&postcount=30
That seems like such a long time ago now and some thoughts have developed.

Even if we consider the continuum concept to be accurate, which I do, by understanding it in terms of sexuality we still carve out “moral” territories within the continuum. If we consider just the sexual, then I think we have the following:
At one end, we have people who are decidedly straight. At the other those who are decidedly gay/lesbian. These are those of us who only get sexually aroused by the kind of partner that fits our place in the continuum. Then, it seems obvious, that those dead smack in the middle are truly bisexual - they can be freely aroused by either gender.

We are more than penis and vagina, however. Heterosexual, homosexual and bisexual are labels that, by name, categorize us by our genitalia and what we do with them. Now, I know, sex is 90% what happens in your head and 10% what happens in your organs. But most people, even if they know this, consider sex to be physical - it is foreplay (for the lucky ones), arousal, intercourse of some description (even if its autoerotic) and orgasm (well, hopefully :p).

Now, considering that social mores have long had a hard-on for things sexual, people become judged by that which much of the population, with its basically puritanical anal-retentiveness about sex, considers at least a little "dirty" and "secret" - and, therefore, titillating (which just adds to the dirty, secret thing). While there will be exceptions, how many of us have good, long, graphic discussions with our parents about what our moms and/or dads did with their particular genitals and where they put them, in what positions, how often, and the qualities of their orgasms?
"Hey, mom, tell me again how you like it when [dad or mom] flicks you clitoris with the tip of his/her tongue."
"Hey, dad, would you show me how to use that anal stimulator you've talked about so often?"
"Sally, sit down, let me tell you about how your dad made me orgasm five times when we played Geronimo coming through the pass."
(OMG, I'm gonna throw up - so, now, who's puritanical? :wave:) For most of us, I think, this ain't happening.

Heterosexuals DO NOT generally refer to themselves as heterosexuals – as oriented genitals - they refer to themselves as people with multi-facetted lives - usually in terms of what they do, but not in terms of what they do with their genitals unless the issue of sexuality is broached. "I am a carpenter/teacher/whatever." "I enjoy gardening/sewing/whatever." "I am a Christian/Buddhist/whatever." What we don’t hear generally is Billy Bob Joe Salesman walking into a crowd of people and saying, “Hi! I’m Billy Bob. I’m heterosexual.” People would move away like there was a bad odor.

Heterosexuals DO, however, refer to, and think about, others by what they do with their genitals. "He's homosexual." "She's bisexual". In the minds of most, these terms immediately transfer to images of what someone does with their penis, vagina, tongue, anus, nipples, belly button (oops, sorry - I don't know how that got in there) or whatever. So, when we have been raised to be so inhibited that we don't want to imagine dad blowing a load into mom or dad, or mom squealing with delight in rapturous orgasm, or either one of them wanting to even remotely insinuate to their kids that these things happen, we use identifiers that immediately raise the specter of dirty, erotic, titillating, and oh so enjoyable (damn, honey, you're gonna have to whip me again for being a bad boy - we should close the windows, though) sex.

Now, where was I - I am sure there was more of a point to this than just being comic relief. Oh, yeah!

Most have been socialized to think that sex is a very private, very secret, and (for many) dirty thing. And in this environment, if we go telling people that they fall on a continuum of bisexuality - well, I think, there's gonna be a strong knee-jerk reaction - just like the strong knee-jerk reaction that GLBT people experience from the anal majority.

I, for one, while I know I fall somewhere on the continuum of sexuality, am not sexually aroused by men. Sorry guys, no insult intended. I've even been curious and checked out some websites that should have aroused me if I was arouse-able by men - and, nope, it ain't happening. I realize this isn’t scientific, but I’m not in the practice of putting electrodes on my private parts – so anecdotal will have to do.

That said, I can be and have been intimately close emotionally with men. There are men I dearly love. There are men I have, or would be comfortable, holding in an embrace when they are in need of comfort or closeness. There are men that "arouse" me emotionally and mentally, "stimulate" me in many ways - just not genitally. Does that make me purely 100% heterosexual - I personally don't think so. I am more than my penis. I am capable of – actually, I need – emotion involvement with people of the same and opposite gender. I think that is true for most.

But, if I was socialized in a more puritanical way, considering this as an indicator of bisexuality would scare the shit out of me - I would probably be rampant in my denial and quite possibly engage in verbal, or even physical, abuse of those who even remotely reminded myself that I was a little "off center". Oh, wait a minute - I DID DO THAT in my previous "life" because I WAS socialized that way.

This even works within the GLBT community. Considering things sexual – with the titillating aspects, but also the intimate aspects that so easily raise specters of vulnerability and rejection – leaves bisexual people in something of a “no-man’s land” with regard to moral territorial norms for those who believe they are distinctly homosexual. Despite having come to terms (possibly) with our puritanical puckering about our own sexuality, we are faced with people who can be aroused by people who match our particular criteria and, most importantly, those who DON’T. We all have our ICK factors. I believe this has the same root as heterosexual judgment. It is a bias, based still on socialization, which has to be overcome by the person holding the bias.

I don’t really know if I’ve made any salient points or added to the conversation in any way, but these are thoughts bubbling up from this discussion so far.

Zerbie

06-08-2008, 11:38 AM

OMG Andy!!!!!!
:eek::eek:
How did I fail to absorb any of that when it was originally posted?! (Referring to the previous post you linked us to.)

Oh how awful. How logical. It explains everything. And it's another illustration on the importance of creating positive, uplifting thoughts and emotions in the people around us. Otherwise, we feed into more of the kind of thing you were caught in, and as we react in those traps, we escalate the traps that other people are caught in. . . . icky yucky nasty downward cycle.

These things are essential to understand. Thank you for sharing that (again), Andy.
:'(:love::'(:love:

Donny

06-08-2008, 03:23 PM

Some of the recent news stories, combined with more of the same over the past few decades, have got me thinking about a fresh way of understanding an "adversarial viewpoint." Here's what I came up with:

Bisexuality and the Conservative Agenda

These people are terrified that recognizing gay humanity will cause in our country a gay “epidemic”… where all sorts of formerly “straight” people will begin “choosing” a gay lifestyle. The fear that making gay “ok” will therefore destroy the very fabric of the American family… that we’ll all start running around naked and making love in the streets… that cats and dogs will start sleeping together… “It’ll be anarchy, I tell you!”

Who would think such a thing?

--Troy Carlyle

Gay Pride parades are a good place to start. As a conservative Christian, what happens "in the streets" at those "celebrations," lends support to the anything goes nature of the GLBT culture that many of us parents (and not just Christian parents) teach our children is harmful to their future. And even in the most hedonistic of straight bars, it is hardly likely that a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of differnt people in one night. If Christians heard the GLBT community talk about abstinence as an important issue TO Gay Marriage, this would dispell the recruitment and pederasty aspect of what many of us see as happening "in" the Gay community TO our children. And on another note, this "questioning youth" aspect of the GLBT community that you neglected, are there ANY instances where a GLBT (PFLAG or GLSEN authority) shows a "questioning youth" that they are NOT indeed G,L,B or, T? Any such examples would go a long way to dispelling uneasiness. I don't visit Gay websites like PFLAG and GLSEN, but wouldn't mind if morality was anything similar to what I see in the Christian worldview.

keltic63

06-08-2008, 03:27 PM

Zerbie

06-08-2008, 03:38 PM

(Trying not to type in all capital letters. . . . )

It is the straight community that has the hubris (and irrationality) to pronounce that gay kids are straight. The straight community recruits gay people all the time, not just youngsters.

Everyone I have yet encountered in the gay community with whom I have had such a conversation is FAR MORE hesitant about having young people label their sexuality or come out than the youngsters themselves often are. What one usually hears from the gay community is something like: Don't be in a hurry to make a conclusion about who you are. If you're gay, we love you. If you're straight, we love you.

It's not an orientation that matters. It is the heart of the person that matters. That heart which must be respected, validated, and sadly all too often, protected.

Matt Algren

06-08-2008, 06:33 PM

If Christians heard the GLBT community talk about abstinence as an important issue TO Gay Marriage, this would dispell the recruitment and pederasty aspect of what many of us see as happening "in" the Gay community TO our children.
First things first, did you just insinuate that pederasty is a part of the mainstream gay community? Because if you did, I think we've moved beyond the "Let's talk in the Foyer" stage.

Secondly, yep, there's an abstinence section (http://www.gaychristian.net/waiting.php) of the gaychristian.net site. Weird that it took me a whole two seconds to find, but you've just been supposing it doesn't exist because we all know how The Gays are always having sex sex sex. If there aren't any kids around, sometimes They even do it with each other!!!

Also, it's important to note that The Gays are usually excluded by design, since state funding is currently given only for an abstinence-until-marriage program and we can't get married in the first place. Bills to close this loophole (http://community.pflag.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=357&srcid=210) have been dead in committee for some time.

Interesting Catch-22, isn't it?

andrewlittle

06-08-2008, 08:07 PM

Gay Pride parades are a good place to start. As a conservative Christian, what happens "in the streets" at those "celebrations," lends support to the anything goes nature of the GLBT culture that many of us parents (and not just Christian parents) teach our children is harmful to their future. And even in the most hedonistic of straight bars, it is hardly likely that a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of differnt people in one night.

Mardi Gras.
Swinging Lifestyle, which by the way has more participants by actual numbers than the entire lgbt community.
Clothing Optional resorts.

Additionally:
Wet T-shirt contests
Beach Bikii contests
Spring Break (Including the one I went to 35 years ago)
Strip Clubs
Sex Clubs

Now let's also address your insinuation that in gay bars "a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of different people in one night."

Okay, Donny - head's up time.
Flashback to 1975 when I got divorced from my first wife. I was 21 at the time. This was in Columbus OH - not exactly hedonism central - and friends invited me to go clubbing with them to get me laid.

The place, which no longer exists, was called Jericho and it was the earliest of the disco hot spots in Columbus (strike number one). I went three times before striking this kind of place of my list. Night one - a man I worked with left four times ith different woman and had sex in cars with each of them. Night two - there was an impromptu blow-job contest on the dance floor. Night three - going because I was asked "What? Are you a fa--ot or something?" - the wet t-shirt contest got carried away, until the contestants were not just naked, but striking the most exposing poses to win the "big prize."

These weren't GLBT folk- these were self-declared straight Christians who took me to this hell-hole - not just Christians, but three belonged to the Church of God.

Hedonism is a human trait - not universal, but certainly not due to GLBT infiltration. Hell, in Columbus OH at that time, you wouldn't catch a gay person being out and proud in public - it was too damn dangerous. And I was one of the perople who made it dangerous.

I surmise from what you have said that you would find all of this disgusting - I surmise, but maybe I'm wrong. But, I'll tell you what, if you blame this slippery slope on the GLBT community you are either grossly - and I mean grossly - misinformed, or you are one of the biggest liars there has ever been.

Also, with regard to gay bars, I have been to many having been invited by gay friends. I have NEVER seen anyone having sex in a gay bar - NEVER. I've seen strippers; I've seen drag queens; I've been hit on and been treated with great respect after telling them was straight. I ain't never been raped in a gay bar; I've never been "recruited"; I've never been baced into a corner. I'm not saying it's never happened, but I've seen these things way more often in straight bars.

The image you have in your head about gay bars is part of your sickness, Donny, not the GLBT community's.

If Christians heard the GLBT community talk about abstinence as an important issue TO Gay Marriage, this would dispell the recruitment and pederasty aspect of what many of us see as happening "in" the Gay community TO our children. And on another note, this "questioning youth" aspect of the GLBT community that you neglected, are there ANY instances where a GLBT (PFLAG or GLSEN authority) shows a "questioning youth" that they are NOT indeed G,L,B or, T? Any such examples would go a long way to dispelling uneasiness. I don't visit Gay websites like PFLAG and GLSEN, but wouldn't mind if morality was anything similar to what I see in the Christian worldview.

Perhaps you should go to those sites and find out about what they promote.

While you're at it, subscribe to the Barna Group research pages. George Barna is an evangelical Christian whose group does all kinds of surveys.

Some of the noteworthy survey results:
Evangelical, pentecostal and liberal Christians share very similar divorce rates, fueled by very similar rates of infidelity.
Evangelical, pentecostal and liberal teenagers share very similar rates of premarital sex, unprotected sex, sexually transmitted diseases and teen pregnancies.

From the AIDS Council of NE NY comes the news that the highesty risk group for getting HIV/AIDS is young teen girls who have unprotected sex. Why do they have unprotected sex? Because they have been taught abstinence only and they'v rejected it, but have no solid sex-ed to know how to protect themselves. when they do. They are also just as likely to be from conservative religious families as liberal ones.

Get your head out of the sand, Donny. Including abstinence in conjunction with "recruitment of youth", "pedastery" and GLBT is about a disengenuous and intentionally deception as one could get. Your's is a very sick mind.

The problem is, Donny, that you perceive society to be going to hell in a handbasket amd you need someone else to blame. You don't want to look at the complicity of your own ilk and acknowledge that your church-goers are as f'd up and responsible as anyone else. GLBT folk are your scapegoats. You want to pack your sins on their backs, along with the sins of the rest of society, pat them on their ass and send them off into the desert in the hope that society will all of a sudden clean itself up. That's self-denial and ludicrous - and the longer you play that game the more people will die and the worse society will get.

If you want to be part of the solution, quit lying to yourself about the source of the problem.

Zerbie

06-08-2008, 10:37 PM

In church today, the talk was about becoming aware of how our own behaviors and words are reflected back to us in our relations with others in the world. He said (I am paraphrasing very loosely) that sometimes we feel frustrated and misunderstood because we know our own good intentions, but for some reason other people are not 'getting' us, and we end up in conflicts yet we don't understand why. The 'why,' he said, was us. The way we act and speak elicits a reaction from the people around us that mirrors the energy we have put into the world.

As the morning progressed, I thought of ways that concept applied to me. And I also thought immediately, with sadness, of Donny. I am glad I decided not to let the ugly words coming from Donny's mouth (well, realistically, that is *keyboard*) persuade me not to go. I had a wonderful time. :love:

tymejumper

06-08-2008, 11:03 PM

And even in the most hedonistic of straight bars, it is hardly likely that a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of differnt people in one night.

Beg to differ, but I worked as a bartender for 10 years before I became a rehab therapist and the things I saw amazed me. I saw STRAIGHT women going home with many different men in one night. I saw take girls into the parking area and screw them and come back in for another one, I heard about conquest after conquest they made the night after it happened. I saw one couple make out and fondle each other to the point we had to kick them out, just before the woman orgasmed in the booth seat(by hand of course).

Even in the most hedonistic of GAY bars would a man or woman hardly have sex with dozens of other people, either in one night or a week! If you believe that load of crap, then you obviously didn't pass math class! Lets do the actual math here......

12 hours in a night(yes, I know it's probably less, but 12 is an easy number)
One dozen people to have sex with that night, that's one an hour. Lets count in 15 to 20 minutes of foreplay, then actual intercourse, oral sex or anal sex, aproximately 20 minutes. That leaves 20 minutes give or take a few to get your clothes on, wash up, pee, leave, and get the next one to your bed. We are not even counting the refractory period a man needs after orgasm to be able to have an erection again, this varies man to man(average time is 20 to 30 mins from what I have read) so I don't quite understand how someone can have sex with a dozen people in one night. Women take much longer than men to orgasm, some a half hour or more and many are so sensitized after sex they can't stand to be touched genitally for quite a while afterwards.

Someone please explain to me how people actually think that gay people sleep with dozens of people in one night. The only logical explanation here is ignorance, pure and simple.

Rick336

06-08-2008, 11:53 PM

And even in the most hedonistic of straight bars, it is hardly likely that a man or a woman will have sex with dozens and dozens of differnt people in one night.

One conservative religious website I found said that some homosexuals have as many as 5,000 different sexual partners in a lifetime. That's 5,000!

That averages out to hooking up with a different sexual partner every single night for 13 years. Or, every other night for 26 years.

That seems very unlikely.

And as far as dozens and dozens of people in one night? Where the hell is that party? :lol: Just kidding.

Rick

tymejumper

06-09-2008, 03:39 PM

One conservative religious website I found said that some homosexuals have as many as 5,000 different sexual partners in a lifetime. That's 5,000!

That averages out to hooking up with a different sexual partner every single night for 13 years. Or, every other night for 26 years.

That seems very unlikely.

And as far as dozens and dozens of people in one night? Where the hell is that party? :lol: Just kidding.

Rick

Where the heck was I when all the lesbian sex was going on?! oh man, it's so unfair!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

matthewspeed

06-09-2008, 04:09 PM

One conservative religious website I found said that some homosexuals have as many as 5,000 different sexual partners in a lifetime.

Sheesh! That many men would kill me! But it would be a fun way to go! LOL!! :lol:

NathanATX

06-11-2008, 01:48 AM

NathanATX

06-11-2008, 01:53 AM

Sheesh! That many men would kill me! But it would be a fun way to go! LOL!! :lol:

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

:D :shield::shield:
:pray:

matthewspeed

06-11-2008, 08:40 AM

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.:

Well, I would NEED that strength!! LOL. :D