Some devil

[sailaway58]

You know sometimes I really like to be angry. To lose the reason for my anger can be a disappointment in a sick sort of way.
Wednesday my wife, daughter and I met with our pastors and one other guy. The four of us have met regularly for several months and these three I asked to meet with to resolve our issues and determine if we would be able to continue ministry at our church. They were the three I met with last Wed. (See Bible Study thread)
Our daughter asked to go and because this affects her as much as anyone (we hug the same people) I said okay.
The evening could not have gone much better and I hope you agree. I am interested in your feed back concerning my expectations.
Basic outline of what I wanted from our Church and what I didn't expect.
1. First I did not expect to have anyone change their personal views nor do I wish to take issue with the denomination concerning Homosexuality.
What I want is to be totally honest have no secrets concerning my personal opinion of the subject and my desire to reconcile those in the GLBT community that are estranged from the church back to a living loving walk with Christ.
2. My objective was/is to make clear to the three of them that my view of the topic was not the same as our denomination. I do not believe being Gay is a sin. (Not that Gay's don't sin but their orientation is not sin).
Though no one agreed with me they agreed that as long as I kept it clear to all involved that my views are not shared by our denomination or the church staff they could live with that.
3. I desired clarity on the comment made to me about being deceived by Satan to destroy the church. They saw how what they said could cause me to question whether I belonged here and made it abundantly clear that they still had nothing but desire for my family and me to continue with the church.
4. All three of us are involved extensively in church ministry. Are we fit to serve or does our opinion of gay's gay issues disqualify us from ministry at this church? They all had no doubt that what motivated us in this issue is our love for our friends and though we differ about what is and is not sin we agree that as Christians our first responsibility is to genuinely love who ever walks in the door of our church. It is not our job to condemn, period.
5. What I want from our church is a place where all are welcome. I believe you can be loving to all even in disagreement. So here is the deal, you come to our church you will be loved but not necessarily agreed with, just like me.
6. I want to start a bible study that is non-condemning loving and affirming targeted to the GLBT community. I can use their materials but I am on my own.

Ultimately my personal convictions may lead us away from the church but it will be because of my choice and comfort level not because anyone is angry with me or wants me out. We understand each other and share genuine friendship and camaraderie.
I am exhausted.

[andrewlittle]

Hard work having priciples and convictions, isn't it. May God bless you for your courage, and grant some peace and rest for your weary psyche. I know this has all weighed heavy on you.

You will ultimately discern the extent to which the exchange was, or was not, authentic. You sound to me like a wise and reflective person. In the meantime, you may have a rare opportunity - a crack in the door, so to speak. I pray that the respect they seem to hold for you and your family leaves the door open for some really meaningful dialogue for at least some at the church.

May God continue to hold you, your wife and that especially courageous daughter of yours in the palms of God's hands.

[BrentRichards]

3. I desired clarity on the comment made to me about being deceived by Satan to destroy the church. They saw how what they said could cause me to question whether I belonged here and made it abundantly clear that they still had nothing but desire for my family and me to continue with the church.


I think I could buy all the others (with a grain or two of salt) but not this one ... they could see how you might have taken it that way? Bullshit. There is no other way to take that kind of comment, and there is no way to take it back. That's the thing about words ... once you've let your true feelings show by speaking them aloud, they're not yours to control anymore ... For me, this would have been the straw that broke the camels back. No coming back from this one for me. The only way I'd change my thoughts about this would be with a direct (and pretty damn sheepish) admission that "We were WRONG when we said that. We were WRONG to say that. It was untrue, unloving, and unChristian in the extreme. We need your forgiveness for such a terrible statement and the anger/fear/whatever that precipitated it."

I'm not at all comfortable with their position in general, as described above, but I think I could have worked within it, in the absence of the above. Just me ... you may have much thicker skin that I do.

[sailaway58]

I think I could buy all the others (with a grain or two of salt) but not this one ... they could see how you might have taken it that way? Bullshit. There is no other way to take that kind of comment, and there is no way to take it back. That's the thing about words ... once you've let your true feelings show by speaking them aloud, they're not yours to control anymore ... For me, this would have been the straw that broke the camels back. No coming back from this one for me. The only way I'd change my thoughts about this would be with a direct (and pretty damn sheepish) admission that "We were WRONG when we said that. We were WRONG to say that. It was untrue, unloving, and unChristian in the extreme. We need your forgiveness for such a terrible statement and the anger/fear/whatever that precipitated it."

I'm not at all comfortable with their position in general, as described above, but I think I could have worked within it, in the absence of the above. Just me ... you may have much thicker skin that I do.
I think that the point was that this issue is divisive they don't want it to divide our church. I also think they believe I am deceived but based on our understanding of each other at this point I believe it is still possible for me to be spiritually productive.
Being agreed with has never been a big deal for me.
What was happening was, If you read the parable of the weed and the wheat, I felt their judgment was like pulling weeds and stepping on me to get them out.
I think we better understand our differences and the question is can we live with it and minister side by side? At this point I believe we can.
The future issue that may throw a wrench into it is if there is pressure on any gay friend that my come to quit being or practicing who I believe they are.
And not long ago I might have agreed with them. I kind of held to the idea of even if you can't help it (being gay)these are forbidden relationships so be celibate.
A gay friend told me that if I had told him 15 years ago it was not a choice "I would have been mad at you" because I wanted to choose my way out of it. He said not to expect to much.
Right now I think it is best that we all breathe a little.

[u-dog]

back when our kids were little and we were desperate for free childcare in the summer we sent them to a series of vacation bible schools. One of the best ones (i.e. most entertaining with the best special effects) was at a very conservative church near our home. The boys were 6,4,4. they called it "king of the jungle bible school" because the people there REALLY liked that song (uuhh! uuhh!) One day the pastor made a statement to the effect that Jews were children of the devil. Oldest boy comes home devasted and worried. he had a very close Jewish friend.

"Is that true, dad?"

"no, son, its not true... Jesus was a Jew, all the disciples were Jews, everybody in the Bible (all the good guys anyway) were Jews. The Jews are the chosen people of God"

"Well somebody needs to tell Pastor ______ that"

"Yes, but thats not your job, son, you are a child and he's a grownup. You don't have to go back to that VBS tomorrow if you don't want to."

"No, I wanna go back and tell Pastor _____ that he was wrong to say that!"

So... full of admiration for this six year old I coached him in the salient issues and what he wanted to say to Pastor_____ and how he was going to say it. next day he went to Pastor ______ told him he needed a minute of his time and made his case to Pastor __________ .

Long story short... Pastor _________ recanted in front of whole VBS.

Needless to say ... we let our kids go back there the following summer.


My point is... don't I have great kids!!??? no, no thats NOT my point :confused: Wasn't I a great parent??? :confused: no... that wasn't it...

I agree with Andy. There was enough authenticity there to have hope for the future of your relationship with all of them and you'll know soon enough if that hope is misplaced. BUT I also agree with Brent.. more needs to be said about the whole "Satan is fooling you" argument. That is hurtful and it undermines the integrity of the whole ministry. they really needed (and still need) to recant that statement.

Tim, I so admire the integrity of your interactions with them. You are a very faithful person. faithful to your own convictions, faithful to your responsibilities as a member of that community, and faithful to God. Bless you!

[BenL]

Sailaway,

I think this experience has been the best basic training you could have before trying to launch a bible study focused around lgbt people. It kinda made you walk the walk, y'know? BTW, I would avoid the word "targeted," as in "targeted at gay people" in any of the publicity you put out. We're kinda sensitive about that word, since we feel we've been the bull's eye for much of the religious right's propaganda.

You're absolutely right about living in harmony while agreeing to disagree. That's always been a moderate, if not liberal :eek: viewpoint. Hope your church survives such a radical viewpoint. :rolleyes:

I'm adopting your bible study as my prayer project for September. :pray: I have no agenda for it but God's agenda. You'll just have to cope with that. :D

[Daniel]

The future issue that may throw a wrench into it is if there is pressure on any gay friend that my come to quit being or practicing who I believe they are.

I think you have some real foresight here. At present, there really isn't anything at stake, right? That may change when something, or someone new, is introduced into the picture.

What you are attempting is truly remarkable.

A few thoughts come to mind here:

1) Leading (as you've already experienced) can be exhausting. It can also be very lonely. While it sounds as though no one is going to stop you, it is apparent that no one is going to help you either . And one reason may be that no one actually expects you to make good on your goal.

I pray for your daily sustenance.

2) Real leadership (of the kind you are exhibiting) can challenge the heck out of people, especially when it calls into question their 'authority', even when it isn't down actively. For example: legion have been the church musicians who experience difficulties- even getting fired- when their ministry overshadows the pastor. Success has it's price.

All this aside, I agree very much with Andy. There is a window of opportunity here. I would press forward before people start to think about things too much. Getting the ball rolling now may be the best thing to do.

Things in motion tend to stay in motion.....and are harder to stop!

Blessings on you!

[paul]

I think that the point was that this issue is divisive they don't want it to divide our church. I also think they believe I am deceived but based on our understanding of each other at this point I believe it is still possible for me to be spiritually productive.
Being agreed with has never been a big deal for me.
What was happening was, If you read the parable of the weed and the wheat, I felt their judgment was like pulling weeds and stepping on me to get them out.
I think we better understand our differences and the question is can we live with it and minister side by side? At this point I believe we can.
The future issue that may throw a wrench into it is if there is pressure on any gay friend that my come to quit being or practicing who I believe they are.
And not long ago I might have agreed with them. I kind of held to the idea of even if you can't help it (being gay)these are forbidden relationships so be celibate.
A gay friend told me that if I had told him 15 years ago it was not a choice "I would have been mad at you" because I wanted to choose my way out of it. He said not to expect to much.
Right now I think it is best that we all breathe a little.


sailaway,

Thank you for what you are doing. No wonder you are "exhausted." You have taken a bull by the horns.

"And not long ago I might have agreed with them. I kind of held to the idea of even if you can't help it (being gay)these are forbidden relationships so be celibate."

What changed your mind? This is a common belief, I held to it for most of my life. For me, after 35 years of tortuous effort to change, I finally had to concede that the God I believed required that I change didn't exist. But you are not in that position. Did you decide to believe people and alter your beliefs, or did your beliefs alter enabling you to believe people (gays)? To me, that's the crux of it. So many choose their belief over a person/people.

[Zerbie]

. So many choose their belief over a person/people.

:'(
:love::love::love: (((( Paul )))) :love::love::love:

We're kindred spirits, alright. :cool:

[sailaway58]

Why did I change my mind?
For one I quit listening to Dr. Lara!
I don't know.
The people that live this every day (Homosexuals) tell the same basic story over and over. You guys aren't organized enough to keep the stories this similar.
Having sex with a woman does not make a heterosexual. I am one all the time, sex or no sex. I can see something sexually attractive in most ugly women! It's just the way I roll.
Some how I decided that a GLBT person could never do anything but practice their orientation because that is the way you roll.
I also don't want to hate something about a friend that they have no control over.
One other thing. How many time have you heard a friend say they don't understand it but they are sure it is a sin? I don't want to be that kind of friend.
Life is much easier if you don't think about stuff and just let others think for you.
I wish I could go up to a glbt person and say, "Hey, quit it" but from what I read that don't work worth a shit.
So I prefer to say to you, where can Christ take us on this journey?

[BrentRichards]

Why did I change my mind?
For one I quit listening to Dr. Lara!
I don't know.
The people that live this every day (Homosexuals) tell the same basic story over and over. You guys aren't organized enough to keep the stories this similar.
Having sex with a woman does not make a heterosexual. I am one all the time, sex or no sex. I can see something sexually attractive in most ugly women! It's just the way I roll.
Some how I decided that a GLBT person could never do anything but practice their orientation because that is the way you roll.
I also don't want to hate something about a friend that they have no control over.
One other thing. How many time have you heard a friend say they don't understand it but they are sure it is a sin? I don't want to be that kind of friend.
Life is much easier if you don't think about stuff and just let others think for you.
I wish I could go up to a glbt person and say, "Hey, quit it" but from what I read that don't work worth a shit.
So I prefer to say to you, where can Christ take us on this journey?

Thank you as always! When I came out to my church's Session (board of elders), someone made the "practicing homosexual" distinction, and I made the same observation: When exactly are you a practicing heterosexual? When you are sitting down to dinner with your wife? Paying the bills for your family? When you notice an attractive woman on the street? Or just when you are actually having sex? So why is it different for me? My church (denomination) forbids "practicing" homosexuals from holding church office or becoming clergy ... my local church Session was theorizing that this didn't apply to me at the moment, since I'm not in a relationship and therefore (therefore for me and my particular set of values) not sexually active. I explained to them (as above) why this wasn't a particularly comforting idea to me. I'm not a "technicality." Most of them got it.

Thanks for "getting it" Tim! May the Lord send us more of you!

[tdogg]

Tim

I don't have a lot to add here, it's late, I'm tired and my eyes are almost done working for the day.

But I wanted to say that I truly appreciate you, your dedication and perservance and your faith, and most of all your friendship here to all of us. You are part of our community because more than anything, we are all connected in some way by our love.

You have shown Christ's love with us and in your words and actions. Keep the faith. Keep lookin' up. God will guide you, show you the way and open the doors for you. Don't be afraid to go through.

I can see you growing spiritually, it's a beautiful thing. :love::love: