Forgiveness

[paul]

I'm not sure I've formulated my thoughts on this, so I'm going to just start writing and see where it goes. I'm jazzed to have such a fine group of people to discuss this with. I mean that, I continue to be in awe of the people here.

Some of the threads I've been reading lately have got me thinking about forgiveness. I'm still relatively new at unraveling the knot of self hate that came of my own particular beliefs about being gay. I note that many here are much farther along in the process. For instance, it still feels weird for me to acknowledge that I am a member of an oppressed group of people (LGBT). So many of our "oppressors" don't even realize that they are oppressive. Some of the abuse is blatant, most I believe is subtle.

What does it mean to forgive? How and when do we exercise forgiveness? At this point in my life, I try to govern myself by the principle of love. Love is costly. But it seems to me, if we all had an attitude of paying the price, there would be no love deficit. Yeah, I know, that's ideal. Though most of you know (except u-dog :D) that I no longer consider myself "Christian," there are still Christian principles that make sense to me, love being at the top of the list. So, here's some of my thoughts on love and forgiveness.

Jesus purportedly said that the greatest commandment is love. Jesus seemed to believe in extreme love (i.e., "love your enemy"). Jesus seemed to demonstrate this extreme love in that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us," saying while dying "forgive them, they know not what they do." "There is no greater love than to give up your life..." (I don't take that giving up of ones life to be strictly physical). Further, "...love keeps no record of wrongs...." I guess you can see where my brain is going with this, connecting the dots. Is there anyone that love does not forgive? At what point do we exercise that forgiveness? Jesus seemed to demonstrate forgiveness towards those who were in the very act of killing him. Do you believe this is the attitude that we who want to love should aspire to exercise in the moment to moment opportunities of life?

I know this is just a sketch, on purpose, I want to hear your thoughts, feelings, etc.

[u-dog]

I'm not sure I've formulated my thoughts on this, so I'm going to just start writing and see where it goes. I'm jazzed to have such a fine group of people to discuss this with. I mean that, I continue to be in awe of the people here.

Some of the threads I've been reading lately have got me thinking about forgiveness. I'm still relatively new at unraveling the knot of self hate that came of my own particular beliefs about being gay. I note that many here are much farther along in the process. For instance, it still feels weird for me to acknowledge that I am a member of an oppressed group of people (LGBT). So many of our "oppressors" don't even realize that they are oppressive. Some of the abuse is blatant, most I believe is subtle.

What does it mean to forgive? How and when do we exercise forgiveness? At this point in my life, I try to govern myself by the principle of love. Love is costly. But it seems to me, if we all had an attitude of paying the price, there would be no love deficit. Yeah, I know, that's ideal. Though most of you know (except u-dog :D) that I no longer consider myself "Christian," there are still Christian principles that make sense to me, love being at the top of the list. So, here's some of my thoughts on love and forgiveness.

Just for the record, I believe that YOU believe that you are no longer a Christian. I just don't believe it myself... and frankly... neither does God. And when you finally figure it out ... I expect that you will have the decency to utter those three most beautiful words in the English tongue... "You Were Right"

Jesus purportedly said that the greatest commandment is love. Jesus seemed to believe in extreme love (i.e., "love your enemy"). Jesus seemed to demonstrate this extreme love in that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us," saying while dying "forgive them, they know not what they do." "There is no greater love than to give up your life..." (I don't take that giving up of ones life to be strictly physical). Further, "...love keeps no record of wrongs...." I guess you can see where my brain is going with this, connecting the dots. Is there anyone that love does not forgive? At what point do we exercise that forgiveness? Jesus seemed to demonstrate forgiveness towards those who were in the very act of killing him. Do you believe this is the attitude that we who want to love should aspire to exercise in the moment to moment opportunities of life?

I know this is just a sketch, on purpose, I want to hear your thoughts, feelings, etc.


I'm a Calvinist and one of our "essential tenets" is that God is Sovereign. This means WAY MORE than just that "God is in Control" or "God is the boss and can tell us what to do" It means that God's will and intention is THE essential issue in EVERYTHING but especially in our relationship to him(her)

Our sinfulness is irrelevant. Only God's intention to forgive us and to reconcile us to him is relevant. God is sovereign.

The only person in history who fully understood and embodied that reality was Jesus, who as you point out, forgave everything all the time up to and including his own torture and crucifixion. through his crucifixion and resurrection our forgiveness is effected.

Embodying the love and forgiveness of God as it was manifested in Jesus is the sole calling of Christians

[Pablo Rafael]

Jesus purportedly said that the greatest commandment is love. Is there anyone that love does not forgive? At what point do we exercise that forgiveness? Jesus seemed to demonstrate forgiveness towards those who were in the very act of killing him. Do you believe this is the attitude that we who want to love should aspire to exercise in the moment to moment opportunities of life?


Not only do I think that Jesus showed love, but I believe that He is love. When the Bible says, "God is love." I think it is more than metaphorical. I believe that the very essence of God is love.

We were created in God's image, and that image shows through when we show that love to others. I think of the analogy of two polarizing filters. When the polarization of light is in opposite planes, no light gets through the two filters at all. However as the polarization of the two filters line up, light begins to shine through. When the alignment is perfect, the image is bright and crystal clear. I think that we have been shown the love of God by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. As God works to align our attitude and will to His, His love shines through.

I think love and forgiveness are part of the same force. (Why am I getting so scientific today?) God's forgiveness is infinite. Our forgiveness for others should be as well. Forgiveness doesn't mean allowing others to get by with what they want. It means putting aside our own selfishness and reaching out to others. it means letting love prevail over hatred.

God's love and forgiveness are extreme. (And in my case it is a very good thing that they are.) So should our response be. Extreme love is our calling as Christians.

Paul, I know you don't consider yourself Christian, but I see great love and compassion in your posts. When I see that love, I see the image of God shining through. So whether you take the lable "Christian" or not, you fit MY definition of Christian as "one loved and redeemed by God who shows that love to others." (If only all who use the lable "Christian" would do the same.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

Paul, I know you don't consider yourself Christian, but I see great love and compassion in your posts. When I see that love, I see the image of God shining through. So whether you take the lable "Christian" or not, you fit MY definition of Christian as "one loved and redeemed by God who shows that love to others." (If only all who use the lable "Christian" would do the same.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Amen and Amen, Mi Amigo, Pablo!:love::pray: You can take the boy out of Christianity but if you don't take the Christ out of the boy it don't make no difference!

[Pablo Rafael]

You can take the boy out of Christianity but if you don't take the Christ out of the boy it don't make no difference!

Why can't I state things that well?
You're amazing, Dave. Don't let it go to your head.

[BenL]

myself. If I have had it drummed into me that not only what I do is wrong but who I am is evil, then, it is impossible to love myself. And, therefore, to forgive myself.

That may sound over the top, but I really think that it is the ultimate homophobia. And it is spiritual abuse that we come to participate in and cooperate with.

In truth, God loves me. What more do I need. "If God is for me, who can be against me?" But we don't believe our own Bible or our own preaching. That's why we find loving and forgiving so hard to do. We can never forgive any of our myriad detractors until we let God's forgiveness in and we forgive ourselves. Think about it.

I speak from long experience of spiritual violence against myself.

[PittsburghJeff]

I think that love and forgiveness go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.

What amazes me is why so many churches focus on sin, and the forgiveness of sin. I might put myself out there a little, but I think Jesus came to remind us that our sins are forgiven as apart of God's love. Just like the sun rises each day, so are our sins forgiven. I think sinning is a symptom though, it isn't the problem. The word sin, means without God. I think we sin when we are in pain. When we have pain in our lives, we want to run from our pain and sometimes we sin. Like abusing alcohol, drugs, maybe compulsive shopping, multiple sex partners etc. When we abandon ourselves, we become disconnected from God. God never wants to be disconnected from us, because he loves us so much.

I think Jesus came to deliver us from the pain in our lives. Look what happened on the cross, even in the midst of Christ's pain, he even disconnected from himself (denial) when he said "Father why have you forsaken me". I think the message is stay with your pain that in the midst of that Christ is born.

I enjoy reading everyone's posts on here. I can't believe the depth of your understanding and insights.

Peace to you. Jeff

[Zerbie]

Wow, Jeff, that's beautiful.

[paul]

Not only do I think that Jesus showed love, but I believe that He is love. When the Bible says, "God is love." I think it is more than metaphorical. I believe that the very essence of God is love.

We were created in God's image, and that image shows through when we show that love to others. I think of the analogy of two polarizing filters. When the polarization of light is in opposite planes, no light gets through the two filters at all. However as the polarization of the two filters line up, light begins to shine through. When the alignment is perfect, the image is bright and crystal clear. I think that we have been shown the love of God by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. As God works to align our attitude and will to His, His love shines through.

I think love and forgiveness are part of the same force. (Why am I getting so scientific today?) God's forgiveness is infinite. Our forgiveness for others should be as well. Forgiveness doesn't mean allowing others to get by with what they want. It means putting aside our own selfishness and reaching out to others. it means letting love prevail over hatred.
I guess my perspective on so much of life if from Christianity, or my take on it. I have to agree Pablo, I cannot separate forgiveness from love. It seems to me that the person endeavoring to keep the first commandment (love) would also want to become expert at forgiveness. The 1 Cor. 13 definition of love that I quoted ("love keeps no record of wrongs") seems to me to cover forgiveness nicely. The bible says that when God forgives, God throws our sins into the see of forgetfulness.
God's love and forgiveness are extreme. (And in my case it is a very good thing that they are.) So should our response be. Extreme love is our calling as Christians.
Again, so would it seem to me. There is "no greater love than to give up ones life (and again, I don't take that to just mean Jesus' crucifiction, Jesus "came to serve"). If one is a disciple of Jesus, it would make sense that the servant is not greater than the master and is called to do the same.
Paul, I know you don't consider yourself Christian, but I see great love and compassion in your posts. When I see that love, I see the image of God shining through. So whether you take the lable "Christian" or not, you fit MY definition of Christian as "one loved and redeemed by God who shows that love to others." (If only all who use the lable "Christian" would do the same.)

Tu Amigo, Pablo
Thank you Pablo, that was a very sweet thing to say. I know I make the point of not considering myself a Christian often. Partly I do it with Dave just to play, I know he has a sense of humor. It's just a point of honesty on my part. Having traveled the cybersphere a bit, I have found it's a good idea to repeat yourself on important stuff. This place is really different, especially with the core group. People here really do listen and care and get to know you. I'm going to play right into Daves hands here and quote another of Jesus' statements that his followers are the ones who do the will of his father who is in heaven. By extrapolation, if my goal is to be guided by love...

[u-dog]

I'm going to play right into Daves hands here and quote another of Jesus' statements that his followers are the ones who do the will of his father who is in heaven. By extrapolation, if my goal is to be guided by love...

Ha! I knew it! You ARE a Christian! ;)

[paul]

myself. If I have had it drummed into me that not only what I do is wrong by who I am is evil, then, it is impossible to love myself. And, therefore, to forgive myself.

That may sound over the top, but I really think that it is the ultimate homophobia. And it is spiritual abuse that we come to participate in and cooperate with.

In truth, God loves me. What more do I need. "If God is for me, who can be against me?" But we don't believe our own Bible or our own preaching. That's why we find loving and forgiving so hard to do. We can never forgive any of our myriad detractors until we let God's forgiveness in and we forgive ourselves. Think about it.

I speak from long experience of spiritual violence against myself.

Dear Ben,

What you say doesn't sound the least bit "over the top" to me. But, isn't it a general tenet of Christianity that "there is none righteous, no not one," everyone is born with a sin nature, thus the need for a saviour? So it seems to me, in a sense, everyone who would call themselves "Christian" would have to deal with the notion of of being 'evil.' Of course, you speak specifically of being gay? Which you have come to see as the rough equivalent of being born left handed (only in the sense that it is 'natural' and not 'evil'). As an aside, I wonder at some 'Christians' who think that finding a genetic cause for LGBT would some how vindicate them, as it seems to me the bible teaches that people inherited their "sin nature" from Adam and Eve. It makes sense to me that there could be a physical element to the "sin nature." For instance, the bible teaches that's how death entered the world...can't get much more physical than that.

You already know I view the gay Christian interpretation of the scriptures dealing with gay as Greek gymnastics (we joked about it on another thread). I guess that's a topic for a different thread. For those gay Christians who are able to reconcile Christianity with being gay in their own mind, the issue of sin and forgiveness changes dramatically (as regards being gay). For those who cannot reconcile and wish to remain "Christian," welcome to the torture chamber. I was tied up for most of my life with the knot of Romans 7 ("...that which I would not do that do I do..."), trying to remain 'faithful' to the belief that any moment now God would "free me from the body of this death." One of the biggest ironies of my life was when I accepted being gay and then, and only then, found the ability to not do "that which I would not." By experience (versus a doctrinal understanding), it really seems to me that I have discoverd the truth which sets free. Completely opposite of what I was trying to make the truth my entire life. As you have also experienced, it doesn't work.

Divisions will always exist in the church governed by doctrines derived through interpretation. Interpretations are as many and varied as people. It becomes a matter of believing people and their experience...especially hard if one cannot relate.

[paul]

I think that love and forgiveness go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.

What amazes me is why so many churches focus on sin, and the forgiveness of sin. I might put myself out there a little, but I think Jesus came to remind us that our sins are forgiven as apart of God's love. Just like the sun rises each day, so are our sins forgiven. I think sinning is a symptom though, it isn't the problem. The word sin, means without God. I think we sin when we are in pain. When we have pain in our lives, we want to run from our pain and sometimes we sin. Like abusing alcohol, drugs, maybe compulsive shopping, multiple sex partners etc. When we abandon ourselves, we become disconnected from God. God never wants to be disconnected from us, because he loves us so much.

I think Jesus came to deliver us from the pain in our lives. Look what happened on the cross, even in the midst of Christ's pain, he even disconnected from himself (denial) when he said "Father why have you forsaken me". I think the message is stay with your pain that in the midst of that Christ is born.

I enjoy reading everyone's posts on here. I can't believe the depth of your understanding and insights.

Peace to you. Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for replying. I know you are new, and this being an example of you, I hope to see more of you around.

That's a very good point about Jesus on the cross. Off the cuff, I would say yet another example that Jesus eperienced the whole of being human.

I spent most of my life feeling "forsaken" by God as regards being gay. I couldn't get the one "called along side to help" to help me not be attracted to guys, or at least help me contol acting on that attraction. I know my experience is common.

I think your observation of the disconnect between who we are and aberrant behavior that results is spot on.

[u-dog]

Dear Ben,



You already know I view the gay Christian interpretation of the scriptures dealing with gay as Greek gymnastics (we joked about it on another thread). I guess that's a topic for a different thread...

So when are you going to start that thread? ...because I remember you saying that before and taking "umbrage" with it then and whatever "umbrage" may be (I haven't a clue) I am still taking it with your statement. So please start that new thread and put your ideas forward so that Brent, Andrew, and I can SHOOT YOU DOWN IN FLAMES !!!! :smashy::smashy::smashy:

[BenL]

... of course there's a but. It wouldn't be a discussion if there wasn't.

Here's where I agree with you:

... isn't it a general tenet of Christianity that "there is none righteous, no not one," everyone is born with a sin nature, thus the need for a saviour? So it seems to me, in a sense, everyone who would call themselves "Christian" would have to deal with the notion of of being 'evil.'

I know my sinfullness and my need for repentance and redemption. The great revelation, if you can call it that, is that it's not because I'm gay that I'm sinful. There are things I have done (and still do) in my gay life that you might consider sinful, but they're not sinful because I'm gay, but because they're not loving or grace-full choices.

I know that I am saved. What I strive to do is to live into my redemption. My human nature is weak and sinful, not because God created it that way, but because humankind spurned the love of God. (Blame Adam and Eve if you must put names to it, but it recurs in every generation and every life except one.) I strive to reclaim the original blessing of my creation, which was and continues to be an act of love. My saved nature is strong and righteous and full of love. My weak, human nature still falls short of the goal. I don't despair because I have faith that, in the end, love will win out.

[paul]

... of course there's a but. It wouldn't be a discussion if there wasn't.

Here's where I agree with you:



I know my sinfullness and my need for repentance and redemption. The great revelation, if you can call it that, is that it's not because I'm gay that I'm sinful. There are things I have done (and still do) in my gay life that you might consider sinful, but they're not sinful because I'm gay, but because they're not loving or grace-full choices.

I know that I am saved. What I strive to do is to live into my redemption. My human nature is weak and sinful, not because God created it that way, but because humankind spurned the love of God. (Blame Adam and Eve if you must put names to it, but it recurs in every generation and every life except one.) I strive to reclaim the original blessing of my creation, which was and continues to be an act of love. My saved nature is strong and righteous and full of love. My weak, human nature still falls short of the goal. I don't despair because I have faith that, in the end, love will win out.

Gee Ben,

Your "but" is much less scary than being shot down in flames :lol:. Actually, not scary at all because I'm quoting and not necessarily espousing the notions I quote. Actually, I like your take much more than the fundamental background that I quote.

Honestly, the fundamental approach strikes me as following a code carved in stone vs. being written on the "fleshy tables of the heart," thus at risk of missing Jesus when he is standing right before them. It seems a huge distinction. One requires a heart the other only requires only a book.

Here's where I have a challenge with either approach...what defines love in specific instances? A book? If a book, we all know there are as many different takes on the written word as there are people reading it, each certain that they know the 'truth.' The heart? The bible informs that "the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked, who can know it?.... Both the intellect that reasons and the heart that feels are vulnerable to the imperfections of the reasoner or feeler. So, who's to say that the love from the heart or intellect is truly the untainted love of God?

Is it that we don't really know? Thus love requires hope and faith because "we know in part?"

[u-dog]

Gee Ben,

Your "but" is much less scary than being shot down in flames :lol:. Actually, not scary at all because I'm quoting and not necessarily espousing the notions I quote. Actually, I like your take much more than the fundamental background that I quote.

Honestly, the fundamental approach strikes me as following a code carved in stone vs. being written on the "fleshy tables of the heart," thus at risk of missing Jesus when he is standing right before them. It seems a huge distinction. One requires a heart the other only requires only a book.

PREACH IT! my brother! PREACH IT! The source of THEIR sin (we'll ignore our own for now) is that they desire CERTAINTY so much that they are willing to crucify Christ all over again (not to mention all the gay people in the world) to get it.

Here's where I have a challenge with either approach...what defines love in specific instances? A book? If a book, we all know there are as many different takes on the written word as there are people reading it, each certain that they know the 'truth.' The heart? The bible informs that "the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked, who can know it?.... Both the intellect that reasons and the heart that feels are vulnerable to the imperfections of the reasoner or feeler. So, who's to say that the love from the heart or intellect is truly the untainted love of God?

The written word leads us to the LIVING WORD by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Yes, other voices are misleading us to different destinations and we always live with the uncertainty of that. It is that which keeps us honest and humble. "I might be wrong" should be our mantra as people of faith. But certain aspects of faith -- the central ones -- are clear and persistant if we stand at the foot of cross and keep one eye on Jesus at all times

Is it that we don't really know? Thus love requires hope and faith because "we know in part?"
See? You knew the answer all along! Hope is the certainty of things not seen


:pray::love::pray::);)

[Daniel]

What does it mean to forgive? How and when do we exercise forgiveness?

Jesus seemed to believe in extreme love (i.e., "love your enemy").

I like the sound of that. Reminds me of the reconciliation process that took place in South Africa, which was featured as part of a program I saw on PBS some time ago. Amazing.

Didn't Jesus say something about forgiving 7 times seventy? Or something on that level? That's a lot of 'forgiving'. And when I think about it, I wonder if the repetition- ie number of times - is not for the person being forgiven, but rather, for the one doing the forgiving.

Perhaps one simply has to train one's self to 'love' over time. After all, it takes about a month - 21 days actually - to form a habit.

A habit for love? That doesn't sound extreme at all, but rather something worth realizing.

[BenL]

Here's where I have a challenge with either approach...what defines love in specific instances? A book? If a book, we all know there are as many different takes on the written word as there are people reading it, each certain that they know the 'truth.' The heart? The bible informs that "the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked, who can know it?.... Both the intellect that reasons and the heart that feels are vulnerable to the imperfections of the reasoner or feeler. So, who's to say that the love from the heart or intellect is truly the untainted love of God?
Is it that we don't really know? Thus love requires hope and faith because "we know in part?"

Bingo! When I hear Paul (the apostle, not the current protaganist ;) ) talk about how now we see in a mirror darkly, I think of the confusing times when I don't know which path to take. I have conflicting thoughts and emotions; I understand only incompletely. Only my faith and hope sustain me. Resolution comes when I experience, even dimly, the love God has for me. I don't think God takes us to task for our mistakes as much as when we harden our hearts to God's love.

Y'know, you have me at a disadvantage, Paul. I wasn't brought up in a fundamentalist setting but a Catholic one. I can match you guilt for guilt :eek: but I'm no match at quoting chapter and verse. I'm afraid that this feeble old brain can't cram any more into it without purging something first to make room. :lol: For instance, I bet if I looked hard enough, I could find a counter-verse on the heart of a good man to the one you quoted. I know it's in there somewhere. The Psalms, maybe?

[paul]

U-dog,

you are the most different Calvanist I have ever met (in a good way:D). I am really enjoying hearing your views and getting to know you. I'll have to gather my marbles and start the gymnastic thread.

Daniel,

I'm fond of the the notion of 7x70 as well. Jesus' disciples were trying to pin him down on the statute of limitations when it came to forgiveness, and he pretty much blew it out of the water. I am not surprised at your liking the notion of "extreme love," you let it slip over at the Course on Miracles thread that you endeavor to go beyond the 'norm.' I imagine u-dog thinks you're a Christian too? Budstian?

Ben,

Sorry about all the quotes, residual fundamentalism :rolleyes:. Here's another that will serve you: "let the one who speaks, speak as the oracle of God..." So, you qualify, no? Whats the difference between my quotes and your oracleing? (oracleing?)

[BrentRichards]

You already know I view the gay Christian interpretation of the scriptures dealing with gay as Greek gymnastics (we joked about it on another thread). I guess that's a topic for a different thread...

So when are you going to start that thread?

Yeah! I am all about a thread on Greek gymnastics! Woohoo!


This is what you meant, right?

[Daniel]

I'm fond of the the notion of 7x70 as well. Jesus' disciples were trying to pin him down on the statute of limitations when it came to forgiveness, and he pretty much blew it out of the water. I am not surprised at your liking the notion of "extreme love," you let it slip over at the Course on Miracles thread that you endeavor to go beyond the 'norm.' I imagine u-dog thinks you're a Christian too? Budstian?


Budhistan? (is there an 'h' in there?)

I guess so!

While I call myself a closet Buddhist, I have the impression that U-dog would consider me a closet Christian. :lol: Though no matter which way one goes, one can't escape 'Love', can one?

Since I posted last on this thread, I've been imagining a reality show called Extreme Love. (Nothing pornographic mind you.) You'd have people traveling around the world, blind-siding someone who wronged them with forgiveness and love. Right out of the blue. Just womping'em with it. And then watching what would happen next....

womp

IN BRIEF: Noun- An abrupt increase in the illumination of a television screen resulting from an abrupt increase in signal strength.

[u-dog]

Budhistan? (is there an 'h' in there?)

I guess so!

While I call myself a closet Buddhist, I have the impression that U-dog would consider me a closet Christian. :lol: Though no matter which way one goes, one can't escape 'Love', can one? ...


I can smell a REAL Christian a mile away, Daniel! What's the old song? ":sing:They'll know we are Christians by our love by our love :sing: They'll know we are Christians by our love :sing:

yup. He's one of THEM all right.

[Daniel]

I can smell a REAL Christian a mile away, Daniel! What's the old song? ":sing:They'll know we are Christians by our love by our love :sing: They'll know we are Christians by our love :sing:

yup. He's one of THEM all right.

You might have thought otherwise had you seen me yell....and I mean YELL at the 40-something man who I caught stealing roses from in front of our building this past week. The term 'thief' was one of the less colorful words heard coming out of my mouth.

Caught red-handed. Literally. He had 8 red and 4 pink roses in his hands. Sneered when I asked him - at first quite calmly- what he thought he was doing. Then turned his back on me and answered a cell call...then walzed across the street to give the ill-gotten gains to his- we later learned- gal-pal located in a street-level office.

The gall. I called the police. He called me names (the f word was thrown around liberally), threatened to hit me and then jumped in his jeep and drove off. The police came and I gave them the guy's license number. They said they'd catch up with him at home. :cool:

Then hubby and I marched across the street and got our flowers back.

If the guy were to show up at our door asking for forgiveness I think I'd make him work hard for it. Stealing beauty is a major offense!

But really, I feel sorry for the girlfriend. Her 'significant other' is cheap.

[paul]

Yeah! I am all about a thread on Greek gymnastics! Woohoo!


This is what you meant, right?

Brent,
Actually, your idea is probably a bit more exciting than mine... I'll have to re-think the thread.