Gays are sick Straights

[awediot]

I posted this in another thread. I so enjoy the look of my own words, and decided to spread it around a bit where it fits. It sums up alot...(now I want a whole bold thread. Somebody stop me!)

It gets touchy to condemn the gay action but not the gay person. In some belief systems, there actually is no room for a gay person at all, only levels of messed up straight ones. If one is thought of as a homosexual, they are either acting on it, sinning away and have given up the fight, or obsessed (posessed) with sinful urges, refraining and seeking help. Responsible, acceptable and moral Gay action is never okay. We're either really sick and deserving sympathy and prayer, (gee thanks, not too insulting) or a little less sick but at least we know it and are looking for healing (prayers answered, uhh, thanks again)

It seems that Gay actions are done by straight people experimenting and being naughty. Gay people are just trying to love in the only natural way they know how...

Both are called equivilent sins and thats why I fight.

[RyGuy23]

Uh, I don't get it...may I ask, politely, what you are saying?

[Jennifer5]

Uh, I don't get it...may I ask, politely, what you are saying?
I'll have to second that...

[Joe Brummer]

This seems like an exploration of how others condemn gays and lesbians. I see 3 major spots Awediot mentions that reflect how condemning christians see gay christians.

1. We are straight people acting beadly
2. We are gay, but trying to heal (ex-gay)
3. We are like sick people that others should feel sorry for.

The sad part is that Awediot is right on some of these observations. Not all but many christians who condemn us, see us in one of these ways.

[BruceChris]

I would like to know not so much - what are you saying, as - what are you asking?

[awediot]

See Equality Ride; Common goals etc. thread for context posted 3/22. I will elaborate and clarify my point later this eve... Long day ahead. Thanks. I do get ahead of myself sometimes....

[RyGuy23]

So you were being sarcastic. hehe. Now I understand :)

[awediot]

It came up in a discussion about "gay-behavior (Sin) and "gay-people" (Tempted to Sin). The word gay is seen as interchangable with other sins, and you are innocent utill you act on it (dismissing the guilt of entertaining unhealthy thoughts for the moment). So, is it purely the act that makes one gay? Or are gay people the ones predisposed to have a vulnerability toward that particular sin? Whether its acted on or not? That predisposition is the crux. It is that which made me gay long before any action. And it is that which makes me innocent of such a sin... I can grasp hating the sin but not the sinner. But not in this case. Call my love sick and unnatural and disease ridden if that helps you sleep. But you are wrong to call it a Sin. You've no idea what you're talking about. The healing you pray for, for me, is an insult and waste of time. Save it for starving kids.

[revtj]

I have often wanted to ask a fundamentalist...am I an abomination only when I am actually engaging in gay sex, and, like, I'm OK at other times, say, when I'm at church repenting of all my sins of omission & commission...or am I an abomination just because I think it's OK to have gay sex within certain boundaries?

Does the fundamentalist God categorically condemn a gay christian who does not have sex just because they know they're gay? :confused:

[RyGuy23]

I have often wanted to ask a fundamentalist...am I an abomination only when I am actually engaging in gay sex, and, like, I'm OK at other times, say, when I'm at church repenting of all my sins of omission & commission...or am I an abomination just because I think it's OK to have gay sex within certain boundaries?

Does the fundamentalist God categorically condemn a gay christian who does not have sex just because they know they're gay? :confused:

Hey revtj :)

My understanding of stricly fundamentalist beliefs is that we choose to be gay/lesbian/bi/trans. (this despite not also saying being straight is a choice). So it seems that they condemn gay people. They seem to think that the gayness is such a deep-rooted sin that they have to condemn both being gay and behaving gay. At least, that's the impression I have at this point...although, some fundamentalists will insist the "sin" can be "repaired"...

[revtj]

RyGuy,

Thanks, I think you're probably correct. The logic is, well, NOT!

You know, I think about the millions of regular people who go to church (or synagogue, or mosque, etc) who simply trust their leaders (pastors, preachers, rabbis, imams) to tell them what's right & true. I doubt the majority of them show up feeling particularly homophobic but they are told "God said it" and if you don't believe it you're not a real christian/jew/muslim, etc.

I think these people (ordinary parishoners) are in many ways not so much to blame for their homophobia, it's the religious leaders. It's like when you take your taxes to the accountant you trust them to do it legally according to what's in your best interest. Don't these folks go to worship with the same expectation?

But whose interest is served by the multi-billion dollar anti-gay religious rhetoric? Just imagine how much money hate has put in their collection plate! :dollar: :dollar: :dollar: :dollar:

[Zerbie]

Exactly TJ! The trusting person in the pew is not to blame - not the source of the problem. The problem comes when leaders Who Know (or ought to know) Better preach against their fellow human beings.

People are not being taught to question anything anymore. There is a time in recent US history when they were. I think I hit the tail end of that generation - but that is a larger discussion. It also involves the fact that thinking independently of the power structure (political, relgious, whatever) is now so actively discouraged it is maligned.

Following snippets of the BYU thread saddens me: I have a close loved one who was raised Mormon who tells me that in his generation they were taught to question, question, question everything, including the tenets they were taught in church, b/c the LDS church wanted educated strong believers who had come to own their faith through deep introspection and deep philosophical questioning of its teachings. But that has been changing for about 25 years.

[Vanessa White]

I often think that some clergy do not want to realize the power that they possess over others when they preach what they believe to be true. Others, probably are drawn to that feeling of power. However, I agree that with the clergy is where the responsibility lies. Persons that attend churches are looking for guidance, understanding, belonging, redemption, and often put that leader into such a position of all-knowing, that they may not be as willing to dispute what is said. My pastor has on more than one occasion thrown in a reference to sexual orientation when talking about diversity in her sermon. My partner and I feel so self-conscious when she does it, but relieved that she does it at all.

[revtj]

Zerbie, we are totally on the same page. So many people would at least be open minded about LGBT issues if they hadn't been scared to death of it at church. Ironically, most of them probably know of a gay family member. That's what really makes it sad. The preacher tells them Uncle Bobby, whom they adored, is a child molestor who is going to hell.

Vanessa, your comments remind me that ministerial authority is a queer thing (pun intended). There are so many (in my experience more than half!) who abuse that authority that it scares me! I used to think it was only fundamentalists & uneducated clergy but I now know that is NOT true. I have seen liberal pastors lie, cheat, & steal and justify it all. After 7 years in ministry, I have learned to begin with the assumption that a minister is a sinner capable of anything as awful as anyone else, myself included, and that trust is something to be built, not automatically given just because of ordination or seminary graduation.

We clergy are cracked vessels at best. It helps that I was raised a strict Calvinist! That doctrine of total depravity is too true in this profession! :(

[awediot]

The church leader can do some great and terrible things. But I think you go a little easy on their flock. I realize when you are conditioned to shut up and listen and blindly obey from day one, it can take an act of God to jar you from the stupor. When it comes, it is not welcome. But it comes, and you question and then you CHOOSE to remain a pious tool, or you grow a little, look around and see your leader for the inspired, wise and fallible human being that they are. If you choose to remain a blind follower, then on your head may it be. "The Preacher told me so" is a lame excuse for an adult.

The good and bad news, is we somewhat are that act of God that knocks the comfort zone askew. We can cause the questioning to begin and that is a threat to any leader. No surprise we are less than popular, and the gay thing may have nothing to do with it.

[revtj]

Wouldn't it be great if people took resonsibility for their own beliefs and consistently examined the consequences!?

The good and bad news, is we somewhat are that act of God that knocks the comfort zone askew. We can cause the questioning to begin...

I think you're right about the gay thing being a wake-up call, but it seems like a lot of them have their phone unplugged!

Anyway, Soulforce will keep on calling, won't we!? :agree:

[NonLemming]

" I realize when you are conditioned to shut up and listen and blindly obey from day one, it can take an act of God to jar you from the stupor. "

This is a great point, awediot, and brings up a question I asked myself years ago.....do I want to be a sheep or a shepherd?

I know my answer, and from what I read on the pages at this site, there are a lot of other shepherds here with me.

Follow blindly? I think not.

[revtj]

But oh GAWD, the SMELL! :lol:

[RyGuy23]

After 7 years in ministry, I have learned to begin with the assumption that a minister is a sinner capable of anything as awful as anyone else, myself included, and that trust is something to be built, not automatically given just because of ordination or seminary graduation.
:(

revtj -- this line you wrote makes me think immediately of the Catholic Church...I've always thought that this church's focus on formalities and appearances (i.e., ordination) is a huge part of what allowed all of the molestations to occur. It's obviously always been difficult for the church to admit that things are not so pretty behind closed doors, much less to have such a public scandal about it. I still hope--foolishly perhaps--that someone, anyone, in that church will wake up and realize that their "reality" just doesn't work in the real world.

Same applies to the Vatican's ever-more frequent anti-gay press releases. The pope is willing to do say anything in order to maintain that "holy" facade, even saying a couple weeks ago that the church won't continue funding a Massachusetts adoption place because the state allows GLBT parents to adopt kids.

Anyway, just wanted to share that little side note :)

[tdogg]

Having been raised AG (dad and stepmom), I know how easy it is to fall into the trap of hearing the pastor and church members but not hearing God by doing one's own research and prayer. All my life was told that homosexuality was a horrible sin and a path straight to hell. Having a Lesbian mom it was nothing unusual or strange to me. It was almost like living 2 lives though - living my life as I thought my 'AG' family would want me to live, then contemplating how my life would be if I could just be who I was like my mother was. Finally, better late than never, I came out to myself and found the most wonderful girlfriend/partner/lover/friend. As our relationship progressed, I felt the need to look into why I did not feel that I was sinning when I was told so different from those I looked up to spiritually. I finally discovered for myself that my relationship was a blessing from the Lord and He was perfectly okay with my, just the way I was. It took a long time for me to see that and accept myself and I still struggle with some family members who are horrified, but I'm okay with it, Jesus is okay with it and most everyone else I know is too.

I think deep down in our hearts we know when we err, sin, do wrong. Likewise we know when we are right. I have an aunt who is having a very difficult time with who I am, she is convinced it's Satan and I'm headed to hell, I'm angry and selfish, etc., etc. She has no interest in reading my 'junk' or discussing my being a Lesbian, as she feels this will allow the spirit of homosexuality into her 'door'. She will not allow herself to obtain knowledge in a subject she knows nothing about other than what various 'Christians' have told her. To her knowledge equals sin. That is what fundamentalist leaders encourage their followers to believe, it keeps them in place and keeps the money flowing. I agree with TJ, in the end, it's always about the money... :agree: