Young Love. Broken Spirits. I need your help.

[AJLove]

Hey again I am a baptist and so is the rest of my family I am only in the 11th grade in a high school named Arts Academy In The Woods. The school has ton of diversity and people accept you for who you are(most of them anyway). The school has so many clubs including a (GSA)Gay-Straight Alliance Club. I would love to join it but my mom wont let me because of her beliefs. We go to a Baptist church that is against homosexuality and everytime they bring the subject up about how wrong it is my stomach turns. I have a boyfriend and he's a baptist too. I dont know what's wrong or right anymore. But I know that I really love him and I dont want to leave nor hurt him. My mom and I always get into arguments about how if I pray and it'll go away. I cant take it anymore I just dont know what to do.The deacon at my church even pointed out a scripture in the Bible that said it was wrong.But I do know that I'm staying with my boyfriend. She always questions me everytime a guy is on the phone who it is.She also thinks that because I'm this way all my talents are going to go to waist and I wont be successful. So can someone please lift my spirits up and help me. I'm begging you. :'(:pray:

[BrentRichards]

AJ

You're in the right place ... I'm sorry things are so difficult for you right now ... but they will change. Unfortunately, for now, your parents views on this, wrong as they are, are going to have a big impact on you. You can't just do as you please, yet.

Know that you are ok ... there is nothing wrong with you (at least, nothing more than is wrong with the average person!) ... you are who God created you to be. I wish I'd had the courage to have a boyfriend in 11th grade! You'll find all kinds of resources here to address the issues of what the Bible really has to say on the topic, and lots of other stuff. You'll also find folks from your kind of religious background and others (I was Baptist in college, myself), and some really neat folks your age (that would NOT be me) who may have some great input and encouragement on your particular situation.

As we're fond of saying around here, welcome home, AJ! Stay, enjoy ... you have a place here! God loves you, kiddo!

[keltic63]

AJ,
again welcome. there are so many people here who are going to tell you that you are loved just as you are and there is no need to change. I can tell already that you know this. Unfortunately, you are in a tough situation. My heart breaks as I read your story.

I'm guessing that you are talented in some way, perhaps musically, since you are in the arts academy. great! Your talent will not be wasted; God has continued to use so many of us here and in a great variety of creative ways. You'll find many musicians here, including myself.

there are times that you could address your mother's concerns, and you will find those words in so many posts here. a key part of doing this as a young person is knowing when to do so, and to do it respectfully. sadly there are times that you must hold your tongue, and simply wait for the time when you are no longer dependent on your parents for support. we're here to help you through that too.

[Zerbie]

She also thinks that because I'm this way all my talents are going to go to waist and I wont be successful. So can someone please lift my spirits up and help me. I'm begging you. :'(:pray:

Well you can assure her that is not the case. There are, and have been throughout centuries of history, thousands upon thousands of extremely talented, extremely successful gay people in all kinds of fields of endeavor. Being gay is NO obstacle to success. Not at ALL!! Wow, I can't even get my mind around the idea of someone believing that!

What field(s) interest you? I'm bettin' we could come up with a list of very successful gay people in the same areas where your talents lie.

Meanwhile, I send you all good and loving thoughts for getting along with your family AND your boyfriend during this time. It sounds REALLY stressful. When you start feeling bad, take deep breaths - we tend to stop breathing fully when we're upset, and then we can't get calmed down. Your mom doesn't know what it's like to be gay, and it sounds like she's believing what society has always been taught (that it's wrong, etc.)

Maybe she could use a little support right now from a parent who has been there before. That's when your local PFLAG chapter can come in handy. Even if your mom isn't willing to talk to someone from PFLAG yet, you could always call and talk to someone else's mom who has come to acceptance. That person might have some comforting words for you, and may be able to provide insight into the kinds of things your mom may be thinking and feeling right now. And maybe that will help your relationship.

Glad you are here. Just tossing some ideas out there, and hoping they might help ease the going a bit.

Hang in there.
:pray:

[BrentRichards]

You always have to say it better than me, don't you, Dave? :D

(P.S. - AJ, he's right, but DO NOT tell him I said so)

[Zerbie]

You always have to say it better than me, don't you, Dave? :D

)

Yaaaa, really. Dave, thank you, that was beautiful. To everything Dave says, DITTO!

[paul]

Hi AJ,

Welcome to you :wave:. I am sorry to hear of your pain and conflict. You have many here who understand.

AJ, I assume you believe in a God of love. This God would know your heart better than any human can, better than even you. You say you "do not know what's wrong or right anymore." May I suggest that you go directly to God and ask God to show you what's right and what's wrong in a way that you can understand? At that point, the ball is out of your hands and in God's court...so to speak. At that point, you can at least be at peace where God is concerned on this subject, because you really want to know.

[scrupulous_stoic]

Hey again I am a baptist and so is the rest of my family I am only in the 11th grade in a high school named Arts Academy In The Woods. The school has ton of diversity and people accept you for who you are(most of them anyway). The school has so many clubs including a (GSA)Gay-Straight Alliance Club. I would love to join it but my mom wont let me because of her beliefs. We go to a Baptist church that is against homosexuality and everytime they bring the subject up about how wrong it is my stomach turns. I have a boyfriend and he's a baptist too. I dont know what's wrong or right anymore. But I know that I really love him and I dont want to leave nor hurt him. My mom and I always get into arguments about how if I pray and it'll go away. I cant take it anymore I just dont know what to do.The deacon at my church even pointed out a scripture in the Bible that said it was wrong.But I do know that I'm staying with my boyfriend. She always questions me everytime a guy is on the phone who it is.She also thinks that because I'm this way all my talents are going to go to waist and I wont be successful. So can someone please lift my spirits up and help me. I'm begging you. :'(:pray:

Hello AJ,

First, I would suggest to calm down. Take a deep breath, and relax. I know that is very difficult to do, judging from your situation, but stress only makes things worse.

It is difficult to alter one's religious mindset, but I do see a possible route in which you can improve the situation. You state that she believes your talents will go to waste due to your orientation. My thoughts are this; as you are in eleventh grade, I would start looking for colleges that specialize in your talents. Make sure, too, that you try to involve your mother as it can cause her to change her perception as to your success. By doing this, you can help not only your situation but also yourself by paving the way to a brighter future.

As for the religious debate, I feel the best suggestions to improve that has already came from the other members from this group. My parents are religious, but I feel that I cannot relate to your situation, and in effect my advice would be unsatisfactory.

I hope I have helped.

[pnggrad79]

AJ,
I am from a Southern Baptist background too, so I know where you are coming from. I get preached at all the time about my aberrant lifestyle. I can tell you that it does get easier with time and once your mom figures out that it ain't changing, she might lighten up on you. If not, I urge you to find a nearby PFLAG and maybe urge your mom to come with you. It might help her with questions she may have.
I struggled with my lesbianism for 12 years before I came out and it was largely due to the fact that I felt like God hated me, and I knew my parents would, as well. Well, God doesn't hate me but my parents treat me like the bubonic plague.
Don't give up your bf. Don't give up who you are to please someone else. Live for yourself and for God. God wants you to live an authentic life. Live it gay, happy and proud. We love you here and you are always welcome and there isn't anything you can say that we haven't ourselves been through. :)

[Daniel]

Hi AJ-

There are some great books that you might introduce your Mom too and you might read yourself. You can find them here on the website by clicking on the Resource tab. Here's a few from that list that might be helpful.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0800631862?tag=soulforce-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0800631862&adid=0FPRZ34C8RNMRMKMKM5G&

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060670789?tag=soulforce-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0060670789&adid=1Z5NCS7Y4A01R9JJQRD1&

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0971929602?tag=soulforce-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0971929602&adid=0QYXGVY5QR73QCXAV8QG&

Does the name of your school indicate that you are in the Arts? If so, I would like you to know that your talent is not going to waste. Not by a long shot. I work in the Arts, and let me tell you, it is stuffed to the gills with talented gay people. And if every gay person stayed home for a day, the industry, whether is was Broadway, Hollywood, Opera or Dance etc would collapse in a second. Being gay is not a barrier to 'success'. Far from it. It's an asset!

And no matter what your talent is, God smiles on it. As he does on your love for your boyfriend.

[AJLove]

Omg I am really touched. So I say thank you too ALL of you.Your kind-hearted words have lifted up my broken spirit. I am so thankful for people like you.
And to answer your question yes I am a musician and an artist. I sing,play piano/keyboard,compose my own music,and I play various amounts of percussion instruments,and I also draw.


Thanks again,
AJLove:dove::love:

[Zerbie]

Omg I am really touched. So I say thank you too ALL of you.Your kind-hearted words have lifted up my broken spirit. I am so thankful for people like you.
And to answer your question yes I am a musician and an artist. I sing,play piano/keyboard,compose my own music,and I play various amounts of percussion instruments,and I also draw.


Thanks again,
AJLove:dove::love:

And your mom thinks being gay means you won't fulfil those talents?? Gee whiz!! hasn't she heard the stereotypes?
Good grief!!

AJ, you sound like a beautiful (young) man!! You have so many opportunities ahead of you.

I have met hundreds - if not thousands - of beautiful, happy gay men with great success and fulfillment in all those artistic pursuits you mention. I won't make a list here because it would be the size of a phone book!

You can have a magnificently joyful and happy life, with a man you love who loves you, and doing any (or all) of those artistic pursuits. I see it, easily. Make yourself a picture of it. Maybe write a song about your most ideal future life and envision yourself in it. Because someday before you know it, if you do not give in to despair, you will live it.

I've seen scores of young men just like you grow gracefully into performing arts careers AND happy relationships with other wonderful young men. And I'm only 30!! I watched the boys in my own generation go through what you're going through now and end up finding their joy, and now I'm seeing the guys right after us finding theirs. Believe - it will happen.

[Steven E. Webster]

Omg I am really touched. So I say thank you too ALL of you.Your kind-hearted words have lifted up my broken spirit. I am so thankful for people like you.
And to answer your question yes I am a musician and an artist. I sing,play piano/keyboard,compose my own music,and I play various amounts of percussion instruments,and I also draw.


Thanks again,
AJLove:dove::love:

Doesn't your mom know that men who are church organists are as gay as geese?:lol:

Steven Webster

[Zerbie]

Doesn't your mom know that men who are church organists are as gay as geese?:lol:

Steven Webster

Geese are gay?
:confused:

[NathanATX]

Hey again I am a baptist and so is the rest of my family I am only in the 11th grade in a high school named Arts Academy In The Woods. The school has ton of diversity and people accept you for who you are(most of them anyway). The school has so many clubs including a (GSA)Gay-Straight Alliance Club. I would love to join it but my mom wont let me because of her beliefs. We go to a Baptist church that is against homosexuality and everytime they bring the subject up about how wrong it is my stomach turns. I have a boyfriend and he's a baptist too. I dont know what's wrong or right anymore. But I know that I really love him and I dont want to leave nor hurt him. My mom and I always get into arguments about how if I pray and it'll go away. I cant take it anymore I just dont know what to do.The deacon at my church even pointed out a scripture in the Bible that said it was wrong.But I do know that I'm staying with my boyfriend. She always questions me everytime a guy is on the phone who it is.She also thinks that because I'm this way all my talents are going to go to waist and I wont be successful. So can someone please lift my spirits up and help me. I'm begging you. :'(:pray:

I hope this video makes you feel how loved you are...

7rUKsptThH4

[sjbouza]

AJ,

What I have found throughout life is that most people are against things simply out of fear. People by nature fear things that they cannot or simply will not understand for whatever reason. Straight people just simply cannot or just refuse to understand that God can love someone that is gay. They want to hide behind their literal translation of a mistranslated Bible. They throw out verses against homosexuality and condemn us for who we are and who we love with no thought to what God has told them, to love EVERYONE. They like to point out the problems in others lives while not wanting to admit the wrongs in their own. When you take the Bible and point it right back at them, then the story changes. The Bible no longer means that because they are a "christian". Most "christians" feel that once they are saved that certain things no longer apply to them.

Let me give you an example. You see hun, I am from a similar situation to you. My family, at least my moms side, is VERY religious. When I came out to my aunt several months ago, she had a similar reaction to your mom. The Bible says this, God can make you straight and if he doesnt then you are not allowed to love anyone. Recently she went so far as to say that the cancer I was diagnosed with was a "wake up call" from God to change my life and my "lifestyle" Basically saying that He is punishing me for being gay. I pretty much take her words with a grain of salt now-a-days. Anyway, in our conversation (when I came out to her) she ranted off the few verses in the Bible that speak on homosexuality with the usual fever of those that only see them as literal words and refuse to look further. I listened as she said that because of my "choice" that I cannot be right with God. That He will take this away from me, that I just havent prayed enough. Even if it was Gods decision not to take it away from me that I could never experience love because it was against the Bible. As I listened a small voice inside me spoke up. "What about your divorce and remarriage?" I blurted out those words to her. I continued with the fact that Jesus himself spoke about divorce, but NEVER once about homosexuality, That the Bible CLEARLY states that if anyone divorces for any other reason than adultery they HAVE SINNED!!! If that divorced person remarries that they are committing adultery and the Bible clearly states, in fact in the some of the same verses that they use against us, that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom either. I pointed out to her that continuing in her marriage was continuing in sin and God cannot and will not forgive a sinner that is not truly repentant. I think you can see where I am going here. To make a long story short...

She actually told me that the Bible doesnt really mean that because she is a christian and she was divorced and remarried before she was a christian so she is covered under the cross and blood. So I asked her then if I was gay before I was a christian and entered into a homosexual relationship and then became a chriatian then I would be covered just the same. Obviously her answer was NO. I asked her why it was that way for situation and not for mine. Sit down for this one it is a eal laugh...her answer was "because the Bible says homosexuality is wrong". I looked at her with a blank stare and acutally asked her if she was that stupid. Now I love my aunt, but I couldnt believe those words came out of her mouth. I told her the Bible says that divorce is wrong. Needless to say even after about an hour of further conversation she still couldnt see the fault in her logic.

I guess my point AJ is that most christians fear. That is what a great deal of them were brought up to do. I am not saying that it is true for all of them, not at all. However, most just cant or wont grasp the REAL concept of the Bible...LOVE. What were the two greatest commandments that Christ left us with? To love God with our all and love each other as ourselves. He didnt put any conditions on that. He didnt say that you had to be this, that or the other. It was just those simple things. You see God does love you. He made you in his image. I think back to an episode of "South Park" when Butters is being forced into the ex gay therapy camp because his parents think he is bi-curious. Anyway, in the end Butters says that he wasnt so confused until everyone started telling him that he was confused. So maybe it isnt us that is all that confused. You know who you are, maybe it is your family that is confused. Like I said if God did make us in his image and He doesnt make mistakes then this is exactly how He wanted us to be. If He didnt want us to be like this, gay, then one would have to admit that God did make a mistake and if that was true then the Bible wouldnt be true either.

So I guess one just needs to ask themselves some question. Did God make a mistake in making you who you are? Where is the confusion in your life coming from? Is it from yourself or others telling you that you are confused? Is God such a cruel and heartless being that He would make you in His image only to deny you the love of another person? In the deepest depths of yourself are you who you are? Do you feel that you are living the life that you were meant to live?

There are so many other questions AJ. But from what I have experienced in life, it isnt us that is confused it is the rest of the world. They project that confusion onto people like yourself and make them believe that they are the ones confused. It has and will continue to destroy beautiful lives, especially teen age lives. It all comes down to the fear of the unknown. Not being able or even willing to understand how two people of the same gender can love one another. Not being willing to look at their own faults before they point out everyone elses.

You are a beautiful and wonderful creation of God. He has a purpose for you in life AJ. He has a path that was groomed especially for you. He created you just as He wanted you to be. He made you a perfect being in His sight. You dont have to worry about how others see you. It is God that sees you just as He meant you to be and that is the only one that truly matters.

Much peace and love to you kiddo...
Scott

[Zerbie]

Oh God, Scott, you have written a masterpiece! So simple, sincere, pure, and beautiful. :love::love::love:

:flower2::flower::applause::award:

:love::love::love::love::love::dove:

[Zerbie]

This is the DAY for amazing posts. Did you read T-doggs post over on the Walter Wink thread? Yikes! I wanted to paste it into my Bible "the Gospel according to St Tdogg"

:lol: Yeah I did, and grinned widely the entire time. I stand by the mantra: Tdogg is a goddess.
:D:D:D

[Steven E. Webster]

Geese are gay?
:confused:

I did some google searching on the expression "gay as a goose" which I first heard back in my mid-twenties some thirty years ago. The funniest example I post below. It might fit in on some of our threads discussing Jesus' sexuality too.

As for the expression, "gay as a goose," I can't come up with the ultimate source.

Some Children See Him
By Alfred Burt (with addition of the "gay as a goose" verse by anonymous)

Some children see Him lily white
the infant Jesus born this night
Some children see Him lily white
with tresses soft and fair

Some children see Him bronzed and brown
the Lord of heav'n to earth come down
Some children see Him bronzed and brown
with dark and heavy hair (with dark and heavy hair!)

Some children see Him almond-eyed
This Saviour whom we kneel beside
Some children see Him almond-eyed
With skin of yellow hue!

Some children see Him dark as they
Sweet Mary's Son to whom we pray
Some children see Him dark as they
And, ah! they love Him so!

Some children see him gay as a goose,
The young man Jesus' virile caboose!
Some children see him gay as a goose,
tenderly kissing his man.

The children in each different place
Will see the Baby Jesus' face
Like theirs but bright with heav'nly grace
And filled with holy light!

O lay aside each earthly thing
and with thy heart as offering
Come worship now the infant King
'tis love that's born tonight!

'tis love that's born tonight!

[AJLove]

Thanks again guys and you too too Scott your words have encouraged me. But I have another question. Where is the best place to get married and have a family. My boyfriend and I are making our plans? He's going to graduate before me and he's going to wait till I graduate till we go to college. I live in Michigan and it's against the law for gays to get married here. So where should we go?

Thank You

AJLove:love:

[scrupulous_stoic]

That depends solely on you, and what you feel is the best course of action. Massachusetts is the only state I am aware of that at the moment allows same-sex marriage, while others allow civil unions. However, there is also Canada, though your marriage will not be recognized in the U.S.

[Zerbie]

You'll want to follow the news as this will be in flux a lot over the coming years. Right now, the only place in the US where your marriage to another man would be recognized is Massachussetts. That may be changing soon, or it may not - the battle is constantly being fought and two sides are continually trying to overturn court/legislative/amendment decisions.

You could be legally wed in Canada, Spain, South Africa, and Mexico City. I believe other parts of Europe besides Spain also have marriage equality, but I'm hazy on that.

Keep your eyes on the news over the coming years and you will see how things are going.

[scrupulous_stoic]

You'll want to follow the news as this will be in flux a lot over the coming years. Right now, the only place in the US where your marriage to another man would be recognized is Massachussetts. That may be changing soon, or it may not - the battle is constantly being fought and two sides are continually trying to overturn court/legislative/amendment decisions.

You could be legally wed in Canada, Spain, South Africa, and Mexico City. I believe other parts of Europe besides Spain also have marriage equality, but I'm hazy on that.

Keep your eyes on the news over the coming years and you will see how things are going.

The Netherlands and Belgium are other places in Europe that allows same-sex marriage. And, as Zerbie stated, always in motion is the future.

[scrupulous_stoic]

The Netherlands and Belgium are other places in Europe that allows same-sex marriage. And, as Zerbie stated, always in motion is the future.

Oh, forgot an important factor: In Belgium, one partner needs to be a resident for three months or more, and in the Netherlands one partner has to be a Dutch national. Same goes for Spain.

[AJLove]

Where can I find a safe peaceful gay community?

[scrupulous_stoic]

To live? Or in a place that allows same-sex marriage?

[AJLove]

A place where we could live.

[scrupulous_stoic]

A place where we could live.

My friend works for a GLBT support center in Seattle, and he has been goading me to move there. He says it is a great community up there. However, one has to keep in mind other factors, such as rain.

[superhippy7890]

Honestly, all you can do is be yourself. Your religion, friends, and parents can't stop you from doing that. You have to sit your mom down, and calmly explain that you are gay and she needs to accept that because she is your mother, and she is the one who gave you life, therefore should support the decisions of her creation. As for being gay, and confessing to the church, whylet their beliefs influence you? Religion shouldn' affect what you do. it should only be there as a symbol of hope for times of crisis, not to affect your beliefs in your life.

[superhippy7890]

A friend of mine typed that! HI!

[superhippy7890]

well, I don't want to hijack the thread but it is good to be back!

[andrewlittle]

well, I don't want to hijack the thread but it is good to be back!

Good to see you, again, Hippy. We've missed you. If you don't want to hijack this one, start another and tell us what you've been up to - if you can ... or want to ... or, well, if you care to assuage our curiosity.

Still like your avatar.

[AJLove]

Just recently my mother told me if I open up my heart to God I wont be this way. I know this is not true but why am I having doubts.

[keltic63]

Just recently my mother told me if I open up my heart to God I wont be this way. I know this is not true but why am I having doubts.


because you have always trusted your mother. You know she has your best interest at heart. You also have to realize that sometimes mom's are wrong, and this is one of those times. many of us (all of us?) who have gone through the coming out process have had those thoughts: I wish I weren't gay, why doesn't God change me? etc. I'm sure it's a normal part of the process. God loves you as God made you!

[BrentRichards]

Just recently my mother told me if I open up my heart to God I wont be this way. I know this is not true but why am I having doubts.

Because you're human. Doubt is a pretty universal human thing. Beyond that, you, like many of us, have been raised with some pretty negative attitudes about a significant part of your own being ... that makes for some pretty significant internal conflict. Add to that your tendency/wish (and a good one, in general) to listen to and trust your parents, and you have a strong mix for doubt. Don't beat yourself up for doubting, or for who you are, or who others want you to be, or ...

As a youth-worker (for a little while longer, anyway), I make a point of not saying these words very often, but I have to here: Your mother is wrong. At least, about this particular issue. I have no doubt she loves you, wants the best for you, and really believes what she's saying. But it just doesn't match reality. I spent years beating myself up for having insufficient faith, or "witholding control" from God, or "failing to submit to Christ's Lordship" or any number of other things some Christians accuse people of when they don't "conquer sin" in a way others expect them to. For a long time, I let others convince me that being who I was was sinful, and therefore, I clearly didn't have enough or the right kind of faith, since it wasn't going away.

I believe firmly that God could make me straight if He wanted to. So, after 30 plus years of begging Him to, why didn't He? Could it maybe be because I'm already how He wants me to be? I think it is exactly that.

I also think you are who He wants you to be, AJ. As a parent, I know I always want the best for my kids. I also know that my perception of what is best is sometimes way off ... I am not God in my kids lives, and I regularly pray that He'll fix the messes I've made with them, thinking I was doing right. Your heavenly Father loves you, my friend, just as you are ... He made you that way! Let Him love you! Doubts happen ... oh well. Don't let them stop you from seeing God's love!

Keep coming back here ... get the support you need to see you through this tough time.

[BrentRichards]

Keltic ... are we reading off the same script? Hmmm... could the match be because what we're saying is TRUE? :D

[Pablo Rafael]

AJ,

Nothing new to add just a few personal reflections. I really have to agree with the great advice you have been given. You need to be willing to listen to God and go where he leads.

I prayed and struggled to become straight for decades. Deep in my heart I knew that being gay wasn't wrong, but my head kept telling me it was. Now I pray every time I read the Bible that God will show me what he wants me to hear and lead me how he wants me to go. I ask God to help me put away my own ideas and bring myself in tune with his will.

Now I have no doubts at all that God made me gay and that is his plan for me. I'm much closer to God than I was 5 years ago. I encourage you to go to the Bible often and be willing to hear what God has to say.

Also you asked about gay-friendly communities. I found Los Angeles to be very gay friendly. I lived in Hollywood in central LA which has a fairly large gay population. It's kind of a seedy neighborhood (OK, a REALLY seedy neighborhood), but it is a fun place and welcoming of everyone.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[sjbouza]

AJ,

I am a fellow Michigander. I live up by Traverse City, about 40 miles SE. WOW!!!

Thanks Zerbie for the compliment :blushes:. AJ, I think we are living parallel lives. Your mom and my aunt should do coffee sometime. They seem to be on the same wave link, cuz their words seem to be the same. When she, my aunt, talks to me about how God can change me if I will let him I start to have my doubts about things too. However, I remember back to the MANY YEARS of prayer, tears, begging God to make me "normal". In the days of my youth I wanted nothing more than to be like I was "suppose to be". It wasnt until only a few years ago that I began listening to God. I stopped praying like everyone seems to want to. I no longer asked God to "cure" me and make me "normal". One night I simply told God, "I am here, this is my life and I am putting it into your hands." Then everything became perfectly clear. I heard a voice deep inside of myself. "You are who I want you to be. Now that you are listening I can tell you that this is who I want you to be. You are perfect in my eyes." I felt a peace about my life and who I was. It still was a few years before I could begin the coming out process. I am still working on that. But after 35 years of hiding who I am from the world it is hard to let others see the real me, especially family. But I am on that road right now.

These people right here have given me so much. A large part of my coming out has been due to my loving fiancee. Yea you guys read right, things are back. Whatever happens happens. We love each other and that is what matters to us. Anyway, he has given me so much encouragement. I am not saying that I still dont have my doubts about things. However, I usually only have them after talking to my aunt and she starts on her rant about how it is wrong to be gay and there is no way that God can accept me living this "lifestyle". But when I go back and pray about what she has said, the peace returns. I figure if God didnt want me to be this way he would take it from me, he wouldnt give me a peace about being gay. Some would say that God may be testing me to see if I can resist the "devils temptation". But then why would God tell me that I am just as he wants me to be? Why would He tell me that I am perfect in His eyes? Why would I have any peace about being gay?

I just cant believe that I worship a God that is so cruel as the one others seem to worship. I cant believe the God I believe in would make me the way I am, in His image btw, just to deny me the love of another. I am not made to love a woman. I KNOW this for a fact. I have been married and had girlfriends. To be blunt, the sex with them was, how do I say this? Ummmmmm, well I might as well been humping a tree. There was no feeling there, NOTHING!!! But when I am with a man, everything is there...all is well with everything. The emotion and passion, it just feels natural.

So yes AJ, you are going to have doubts. As others have said it is human nature to have doubts about things. These are things that are coming from your mother, the one person in the world that has been there for you all your life to tell you right from wrong. Now she is telling you that who you are is wrong, of course you are going to doubt. My advice to you is to search your heart. Listen to what others have to say, but take it with a grain of salt, as I do with my aunts words. I look at it this way, just because she says it doesnt make it right. Look at how many things have been taken out of context in the Bible throughout time. Denial of womens rights, child labor, slavery, murder, etc have all been justified with the Bible at one time or another. So you know what, who is to say who is right or wrong.

My fiancee and I had a discussion last night as a matter of fact. Look at how many different sects of the Christian faith there are. Each one believe that they have the correct interpretation of the Bible. Well if that is true who is actually the real correct one? You had better choose correctly because if you dont you will be doomed. You see they cant all be right, and according to most of them if you arent right in your interpretation that you will not inherit the kingdom. If you believe wrong then you are doomed. So who is right? Who is wrong? I think everyone is more wrong than they are right.

I seem to remember something from the Bible, hope I can explain it alright. dont worry this will be my last point. If our own creator does not see gender (There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28) and we are to daily seek Him and align our thoughts with his, I think we should start working on what He does see (and require us to) LOVE!

Sorry my posts can get SO LONG. I hope you get what I am trying to say within these ramble of words. Take care of yourself AJ. Keep your spirits up. You are just as God created you to be, never doubt that.

Ummmm...I have a question for you. If you dont want to answer that is understandable. But I have just gotten a feeling that I know who your boyfriend is. Does his name happen to be Rob (Robbie)? AJ just seems to me to be very familiar. Or it just might be in my head...idk.

As far as gay marriage. It is coming very soon I think everywhere. Especially now that we are now considered a minority class of people in law. I need to stop this is getting long enough. Sorry once again for my novel posts...that is just me.

Take care AJ. Keep your head held high, your life is a wonderful thing, never doubt that!!!

Peace and love,
Scott

[AJLove]

I'm sorry I think you may have me mistaken for someone else,lol. But Thanks for the encouragement.

But I just had a talk with my mom today and she said that I really need to talk to the pastor at my church so he can help me change myself. She said that it's just a choice it's just a "mind thing".Also she said that God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. It's wrong and it's not right at all.

[BrentRichards]

Also she said that God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. It's wornd and it's not right at all.

You have no idea how I eat people alive when they throw this around. It brings out a very unfriendly side of me. "Wow," I say, "that's really clever. And it rhymes, so it must be Biblical!" Don't get cute with me, people, this is my life we're talking about. I don't suggest you talk to your mother like that, but the argument is completely bogus ... God also created Adam and Eve nudist and vegetarian. Does your mother disapprove of meat or clothing? The Genesis story does not reflect any of the diversity of God's creation ... not in race, or language, or personality, or giftedness, or ... sexual orientation. The creation narrative tells us of the BEGINNING, not the END (as in end=goal). Of course the creation tells us of a procreative couple ... it is answering the question "How did we get here?" It is NOT answering the question "Where are we now?" or "What is the sum total of God's creative work?" If it answered that, the Bible would end at Genesis Chapter 2. There is so much more. Don't throw rhymes at me, I say to this argument, tell me the story of God's people. All of the story, for all of His people. Not some cutesy slogan that makes you comfortable.

Grr. Can you tell I feel strongly about this AJ? Clever and catchy doesn't equal true.

[Daniel]

But I just had a talk with my mom today and she said that I really need to talk to the pastor at my church so he can help me change myself. She said that it's just a choice it's just a "mind thing".Also she said that God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. It's wornd and it's not right at all.

AJ- your mother is on a learning curve. Everthing she says right now is said because she loves you, but she is bound to say stupid stuff because can't see you for who you are. There is too much fear clouding her perception. It's gonna take some time for her to see straight (no pun intended). Perhaps lots of it.

What she needs is information. If she's a very conservative Christian, she may not be open to anything outside the church walls- so to speak. There are books- written for Christians- on this site (see Resouces). You might check them out- read them- and then give them to her.

You also might contact your local (and State) PFlag chapter. Getting information from them can be a first step in bridging the divide that may be growing between you. This is really crucial: parents can feel isolated when their children come out to them. Ashamed too. They don't know how to deal with it. And of course, they often ask for help from those who are least able to give it. However, their talking to other parents- who accept their gay kids - can be extremely helpful. Of course, parents- especially conservative ones- may resist this.

Just keep in mind, you probably didn't come out to yourself in one fell swoop: you have head start on her. But with luck and love, she is bound to catch up.

If you haven't said it- tell her you love her. That will mean more than anything right now. That will get through to her. That's something you can build on.

[BrentRichards]

[Daniel's answer is way better than mine ... I went into attack mode. Sorry ... that Adam and Steve thing just sets me off!]

[u-dog]

[Daniel's answer is way better than mine ... I went into attack mode. Sorry ... that Adam and Steve thing just sets me off!]

You can't help the fact that you are a Dad. Its just your protective parent mode! You get crazy when kids are under assault. Its part of what we love about you.

[Daniel]

[Daniel's answer is way better than mine ... I went into attack mode. Sorry ... that Adam and Steve thing just sets me off!]

You should have seen me yesterday!

Better? I don't think so.

Shooting from the hip has it's own virtues. You will get your man. ;)

[BrentRichards]

You will get your man. ;)

Oooo ... promise?

[Zerbie]

Oooo ... promise?

:p

Well, if you keep dressing in that pirate suit, ya will.
:agree:
Mmm MMMMM!! ;)

:lol:

[AJLove]

She was also talking about all the diseases I can get and how I'll bleed and have a hard time walking. Sorry if this was inappropriate.

[Zerbie]

She was also talking about all the diseases I can get and how I'll bleed and have a hard time walking. Sorry if this was inappropriate.

Oh honey!! :(
:love:

Those are scare tactics and propaganda that an entire generation of people were taught as "science." It isn't science. It is propaganda. Being gay no more means you are destined for disease than being straight does. :disagree::disagree:

Whatever your sexual orientation/behavior are, the important thing is taking care of one's health and respecting one's partner. Study up and get a thorough education on "safer sex." Learn what activities are more high risk for STDs than others, and take care of yourself, if you decide to be sexually active (or are already.)

I was raised with the myth beaten into me that gay man "carry disease." That's sheer propaganda - meaning, it is falsehood used to scare people - the "gays carry disease" talk is actually a way of dehumanizing gay people. It used to be said that "Jews carry disease." That led to a holocaust.

About 10 years ago I had a friend try to talk me into dropping out of a performance because my scene partner, with whom I played a seduction scene, was a gay man. She warned me, "Don't let a homosexual touch you!! You'll catch diseases!" She didn't remain a friend much longer after that. It's complete and utter crap, and very insulting at that.

Learn what behaviors carry what risks, and make your own choices accordingly. AJ, there are gay people out there who are virgins, who have never been sexually intimate with anyone, ever - it's a complete and utter lie to say that being gay means being riddled with sexually transmitted disease. As someone who has many gay male friends over the years, it infuriates me. :mad:

I am sorry but your mother has been misinformed by someone who was either also misinformed, or who had an agenda to dehumanize gay people with propandistic teachings.

Know that those things are not true. Take care of yourself. Being gay doesn't mean engaging in sexual behavior necessarily. You can be gay and celibate if you want to be celibate. Gay does NOT by definition lead to disease. Would it make sense to say being straight LEADS to disease? Nope. Neither does being gay.

[Daniel]

She was also talking about all the diseases I can get and how I'll bleed and have a hard time walking. Sorry if this was inappropriate.

Why is it that straight people are always thinking about anal intercourse? And when was the last time they talked about their sex life with such candor? That's what's inappropriate!

Do they scare girls on their wedding night, assuming they are virgins, with talk of bleeding hymens? Dear God no! That's sanctified by the Almighty and part of the marital bed. All very hush hush.

Fooey!

AJ- please let me tell you a few things.

Not every gay man is into anal intercourse. There are many couples who aren't. It's not the sin qua non of being gay- really- it isn't. That said, anal intercourse is no more dangerous than vaginal intercourse. One has to have common sense, adequate lubrication, and a partner who knows what he is doing.

Why all the big deal? Here's why: the prostate is capable of orgasm, in an of itself. It can be intensely pleasurable.

Is anal intercourse risky? Sure it is. Is vaginal intercourse risky? Sure it is. Any interaction between two people is risky insofar as the parties involved and their sexual history. As was said during the decade of AIDS (80s') when the words 'Safer Sex" was coined: "When you sleep with someone you are sleeping with all the people that person has slept with." This was meant to educate people, not scare them. Being afraid is not the same thing as being responsible. And the point was to be responsible. Still is actually.

Sweetie- you're going to have to educate yourself. Go to the library and check out The Joy or Gay Sex or The Gay Kama Sutra - this latter book is a favorite of mine- nicely put together with a spiritual angle.

And if you can talk to a gay healthcare professional, so much the better. He/she can tell you how to protect yourself and your future partner (for instance: gay men are smart to get vaccinated for the three types of hepatitis). And if he doesn't mind, Scott Snedeker- our resident Doc- might be able to address your concerns in more detail via a PM.

It may sound silly, but the Boy Scouts are right: one has to be prepared (learn how to use a condom). Then one can relax and have fun. And love. And intimacy.

No matter what one is doing, or not doing, it's all about Love. Really. That's it. Love.

[u-dog]

No matter what one is doing, or not doing, it's all about Love. Really. That's it. Love.


Ok... as a Dad, a pastor, and an old fuddy-duddy let me also say... if the Love aint there... the sex shouldn't be there either. Sex without love is dangerous -- to your body -- and to your spirit. Explore love first and let sex wait and follow along when the time seems right.

end of sermon:x

[BrentRichards]

She was also talking about all the diseases I can get and how I'll bleed and have a hard time walking. Sorry if this was inappropriate.

It was inappropriate ... for someone to say to you, not for you to share here. I'm almost crying at this, kiddo.

Funny thing, I just had the "diseases you can get" discussion again with my son ... who is straight. If your mom is telling you to be careful, good. If she's telling you to be straight, nothing solved. Straight people get sick when they're careless, too.

Have a hard time walking? That just begs for a smart alec response, though again, I can't recommend giving one to your mom (as a dad, I can tell you it won't get you anywhere) ... suffice to say, visit a gay club some time and watch how much "trouble" all those gay men have dancing all night ... Now, on the other hand, if you're thinking of taking up, say, horseback riding, expect some walking difficulties.

Lord have mercy on the church's insanity!

[BrentRichards]

Ok... as a Dad, a pastor, and an old fuddy-duddy let me also say... if the Love aint there... the sex shouldn't be there either. Sex without love is dangerous -- to your body -- and to your spirit. Explore love first and let sex wait and follow along when the time seems right.

end of sermon:x

Ditto that.

[AJLove]

Then what also makes me mad is that she keep saying all they want is one thing, to "poke" you. "All of them are like that. They can act like a friend but there they just want you for sex." :mad: I got so upset because the school I go to is Pro-gay with A Gay Straight Alliance club and everything and I have gay friends male and female. They are not like that.

[u-dog]

Those queers, all they want is to __________

Those n_______s all they want is to ____________

Those Jews! all they want is to __________________

Those Honkies! all they want is to ________________

All that talk is the same AJ. its hate and fear and ignorance talking. You know it isn't true though, because you have friends -- real people not stereotypes -- who are not like that. And... you are a gay person and clearly YOU are not "like that". Let those words roll off of you and into the sewer where they belong.

Having said that ... it probably needs to be said that there ARE one or two people out there who just want to "poke" you, so keep yourself safe. But most people in the world just want friendship, love, and respect from others. Then sex when those three are in place.;)

[Pablo Rafael]

AJ,

What little advice I can give is this:

1. Don't engage in an argument trying to prove your point any more than is necessary. Tell your mom (or others) how you feel. Use "I" messages. If anyone tells you gays are bad people who are out to use or hurt you, ask. "Do you think I am that way? Do you think all gays are one way?" Don't let them point out "worst-case" examples concerning gays; what does that have to do with you? - nothing.

2. When Bible verses come out, I simply prefer to answer that I think that the whole Bible comes down to LOVE. God's love for us and our love for each other. Point out that nowhere in the Bible does it argue against love. Unless your theological debating skills are excellent, it is really hard to get anywhere arguing Biblical points. Ask people who argue Biblical points of they are sure that they are always right on every issue. Could they possibly be mistaken? People are generally unwilling to sound arrogant and say that they are always right. They should be willing to admit the possibility that they could be in error. Direct them to the writings of pro-gay Biblical theologians rather than trying to argue the points yourself.

3. Remember that with parents it is as much about them as it is about you. Parents generally feel that their kids are an extension of themselves. Remember to respond with love to any difficult situation. If your example is one of love, it can eventually soften any conflict.

4. Point out that the first statement God made about sexuality is "It is not good that man should be alone." The number one point of marriage is companionship. For some of us it has to be with members of our own sex; it just won't work any other way. (Take it from someone who has lived by himself for 24 years. It's not good to be alone. And I personally am growing quite weary of it.)

(enough self-pity and back to the point.)

I feel that we are the first generation who is really making an impact in the fight against anti-gay prejudice. It will not be easy. But like those first black students who integrated the all-white schools of the south 50 years ago, we have conflict ahead. It will not be easy, but when people realize that we are loving, Christian, caring, compassionate people, they will come to welcome gays as a valuable part of the community.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[Pablo Rafael]

You have no idea how I eat people alive when they throw this around. It brings out a very unfriendly side of me.

Someone really needs to switch to decaf.

[Daniel]

Ok... as a Dad, a pastor, and an old fuddy-duddy let me also say... if the Love aint there... the sex shouldn't be there either. Sex without love is dangerous -- to your body -- and to your spirit. Explore love first and let sex wait and follow along when the time seems right.

end of sermon:x

I never said anything goes. Please don't misinterpret my intention. I meant what I said, which was expressed in big terms: even in our fumblings, sexual and otherwise, it's about love. The desire to give it and receive it. Perhaps this is my own bias, but it's not lost on me that in the Orient, it is understood that that those who curse God are considered blessed because they are calling on the divine just as much as those who pray.

One learns how to love as much as one learns how to walk. Step by step. Faltering and falling. God forbid that gay persons should set up some kind of God-awful standard by which others should 'behave'. We get enough of that from straight people.

End of sermon!

[Daniel]

Hey! Daniel! what did I say that led you to believe that I was disagreeing with you? I was just adding a further point of my own which you are free to agree or disagree with.

It was the quote chosen from my post, and your subsequent point, which, together, gave the impression that I was expousing 'love' without a shred of ethics. I was not.

Perhaps I'm simply being a bit touchy. Or perhaps I am looking back on my life with a gimlet eye. What I see there tells me that the road to love is often circuitous and paved with rough and uneven stones.

[BrentRichards]

AJ,

What little advice I can give is this:

1. Don't engage in an argument trying to prove your point any more than is necessary. Tell your mom (or others) how you feel. Use "I" messages. If anyone tells you gays are bad people who are out to use or hurt you, ask. "Do you think I am that way? Do you think all gays are one way?" Don't let them point out "worst-case" examples concerning gays; what does that have to do with you? - nothing.

2. When Bible verses come out, I simply prefer to answer that I think that the whole Bible comes down to LOVE. God's love for us and our love for each other. Point out that nowhere in the Bible does it argue against love. Unless your theological debating skills are excellent, it is really hard to get anywhere arguing Biblical points. Ask people who argue Biblical points of they are sure that they are always right on every issue. Could they possibly be mistaken? People are generally unwilling to sound arrogant and say that they are always right. They should be willing to admit the possibility that they could be in error. Direct them to the writings of pro-gay Biblical theologians rather than trying to argue the points yourself.

3. Remember that with parents it is as much about them as it is about you. Parents generally feel that their kids are an extension of themselves. Remember to respond with love to any difficult situation. If your example is one of love, it can eventually soften any conflict.

4. Point out that the first statement God made about sexuality is "It is not good that man should be alone." The number one point of marriage is companionship. For some of us it has to be with members of our own sex; it just won't work any other way. (Take it from someone who has lived by himself for 24 years. It's not good to be alone. And I personally am growing quite weary of it.)

(enough self-pity and back to the point.)

I feel that we are the first generation who is really making an impact in the fight against anti-gay prejudice. It will not be easy. But like those first black students who integrated the all-white schools of the south 50 years ago, we have conflict ahead. It will not be easy, but when people realize that we are loving, Christian, caring, compassionate people, they will come to welcome gays as a valuable part of the community.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

What a smart guy!:agree::tup:

[BrentRichards]

Someone really needs to switch to decaf.

Ok, 5 words: Four pounds of coffee beans! (And none, I might add, decaf ... though 1 quite sultry)


Inside joke warning ...

[andrewlittle]

The problem many, many straight people have with same-sex relationships is the ick factor, right? Lack of information and knowledge fuel rampant untruths about how gays - you know, do IT. Right?

Bull crap.

The methods of having sex - not just amorous or affectionate fondling - would presumable fall under one the following categories:

Manual manipulation - aka, hand job, feel up, whatever. Doesn't matter whether its autoerotic or with a partner, as far as I'm concerned.

Vagina insertion of the penis - aka, too many to list.

Oral sex - aka, blowjob, head, eating ... you get the picture. One assumed favorite of same-sex couples that has certain conservative types in uproar.

Anal insertion of penis - aka - well, that may be too graphic for some. The other - even more icky - favorite of gay men. This is the one that some will tell you will happen unwillingly in public restrooms or if you happen ever to see another man's penis.

These last two are the nasty, icky habits of gay people that will get young men (especially) sick, diseased, possibly insane, and most certainly banned from the great white halls of Heaven.

Utter nonsense.

The CDC in 2002 found that for adults aged 25-44:

97% of men and 98% of women had had vaginal intercourse.

90% of men and 88% of women had had oral sex with an opposite sex partner. Now, think about this - why is it imminently more dangerous if you are talking about same-sex partners. Is it the fact that women have some supernatural protection from getting diseases, going mad, or being banned from Heaven while blowing a guy - or visa versa? Or is it that most adults have "done the dirty" and can't abide their children doing it - especially with someone they wouldn't choose to do it with.

40% of men and 35% of women have had anal-sex with a partner of the opposite sex. It's pretty clear which way this works, I think - I mean who "gives" and who "receives". Is a female anus better equipped to handle a little chubby than a male one? Is there some magical power that keeps hetero anal sex safe, while damning all gays to suffer some kind of sexual disease akin to leprosy. or is this just another instance of someone's repressed dad being ashamed, and titillated, by a little something different - while wanting to keep the offspring "clean" of course.

Why does it work for the hetero population, but create such a diseased nuisance for the 6.5% of man and 11% of women who have had same-gender sexual relations?

Beats me! Sounds like more bad science and scare tactics to me.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad362.pdf

[keltic63]

The problem many, many straight people have with same-sex relationships is the ick factor, right? Lack of information and knowledge fuel rampant untruths about how gays - you know, do IT. Right?

Bull crap.

The methods of having sex - not just amorous or affectionate fondling - would presumable fall under one the following categories..... <snip>

Why does it work for the hetero population, but create such a diseased nuisance for the 6.5% of man and 11% of women who have had same-gender sexual relations?



I mentioned this in the stev0 thread I think, and then I had a similar conversation a few nights ago with the straight, female, pastor who will be officiating at our wedding. Having been in a straight marriage, and now living life as a gay man, I can honestly say that the sex acts themselves are not a whole lot different. I just get a lot more joy and satisfaction out of them now that I do it with someone of the same gender as myself. In the dark, a bj is a bj, no matter who's giving it. People need to get over it. It's not about the sex, it's about affectional orientation. humans spend so little time in sexual activity, why is it such a big deal? It's a big deal because our romantic attractions, physical attractions, and emotional connections turn the straight world upside down. They just don't like to think it's possible we could love.....when we're soooo different from them.

[BrentRichards]

Take note also, in Andy's (admittedly icky!) list, ALL of these are practiced by (some) heterosexual people. One is NOT practiced by (most) gay people (at least, not while they're "practicing" homosexuality) ... is the objection maybe that we are having LESS kinds of sex than straight people? Hmmm...

Well said (even if icky) Andy.

[AJLove]

I just read these articles about gay marriage and how it's wrong and how you can't sat I know pronounce you husband and husband or wife and wife. I'm literally really hurt and confused right now because I'm starting to doubt what I am is right and definitely with the whole marriage thing c. Can someone please help me.

[u-dog]

I just read these articles about gay marriage and how it's wrong and how you can't sat I know pronounce you husband and husband or wife and wife. I'm literally really hurt and confused right now because I'm starting to doubt what I am is right and definitely with the whole marriage thing c. Can someone please help me.

Of course someone HERE can help you! We have people here who are gay married to gay people, lesbians married to lesbian people, straights married to straight people. Gays married to straight people. Bi's married to gay people. Bi's married to straight people. Gays married to Trans people. damn! if you can't get some answers about marriage HERE... there are no answers. :lol:

BUT...

Can you link us to the articles that have you concerned? Or ask some more specific questions about what is concerning to you? It'll be easier to help if we don't go off in a hundred directions that don't have anything to do with your concerns :)

AND...

Ok, I give up... why CAN'T you say "I now pronounce you husband and husband?" or "wife and wife"? because it sounds weird? Not a good enough answer. the NOUN "husband" means

NOUN:
1. A man joined to a woman in marriage; a male spouse.
2. Chiefly British A manager or steward, as of a household.
3. Archaic A prudent, thrifty manager.

The VERB "to Husband" means:

tr.v. hus·band·ed, hus·band·ing, hus·bands
1. To use sparingly or economically; conserve:


In our house Polly and I are both "husbands" of different things. She "husbands" our emotional resources as a couple. I tend to be the one who "husbands" the finances.

[u-dog]

"To date, I have not seen scriptural authority that allows me to stand on behalf of God and say I now pronounce you husband and husband, and wife and wife," Jakes told USA Today last month. "This is an issue the government is undecided about. The Bible is not," he said. But if Jakes still believes in the separation of church and state, it's not clear from his political activity. In fact, Jakes publicly endorsed the anti-gay Federal Marriage Amendment, which would have been the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution to legalize discrimination against a group of citizens.

Is this what your asking about? I would challenge him to show us where the Bible gives him authority to stand on behalf of God and say "I now pronounce you man and wife" either. That AINT in the Bible. Nor does the bible say anything about who has the authority to join people in marriage. or who SHOULD be joined in marriage.

Marriage is a CIVIL institution. When I, as a pastor, stand before a gathering and say "I now pronounce you husband and wife" I speak for and am authorized by THE GOVERNMENT OF MY STATE. Marriage is NOT created by the pastor. Its not created by the state, its not created by a piece of paper.

A marriage is created and sustained by God as a blessing on two people because "it is not good that the man should be alone!" (thats from Genesis chapters 1-2). A marriage is created and sustained by the two people involved in it -- by their LOVE and by their HARD WORK.

If it is the love and hard work of two husbands or two wives it makes no difference. you can have a marriage of a man and a woman. you can have a marriage of two men... two women. You can have a marriage with lots of steamy hot sex. you can have a marriage with with lousy sex, you can have a marriage with NO sex, you can have a marriage with hetero-sex, you can have a marriage with homo-sex.

What you CAN'T have is a marriage without LOVE and without HARD WORK.

[AJLove]

Why “Gay Marriage” Is Wrong

by Robert A. J. Gagnon, Ph.D.

sorry, I must edit this post. We do not host anti-gay material here.

[Zerbie]

Wow AJ, you read all that? Yuck. I don't have patience to read all the articles you quoted here: I read the first one, and then the final paragraph of the last one and find a lot of BS and self-contradiction in those articles.

NOTHING will be destroyed by recognizing same sex unions. There have been couples in unions with partners of the same gender for thousands of years, and civilization has not been harmed by it in all that time, because it is NOT harmful. While no harm will be done to my marriage by recognizing the relationships of our gay neighbors, a lot of harm IS done regularly to gay people by our institutions' refusal to acknowledge their relationships.

There ARE no ill health effects of being bisexual or homosexual or heterosexual - it is an illogic masquerading as "social science." The "incidence" of homosexuality or bisexuality does not increase or decrease in response to societal punishments or lack thereof, as both homosexuality and bisexuality are inherent states of being. All these punitive measures want to do is corner gay and bi people into closets of terrified self-denial so that no one is aware of the gay people who are already there among us.

[u-dog]

Why “Gay Marriage” Is Wrong

by Robert A. J. Gagnon, Ph.D.

sorry, I must edit this post. We do not host anti-gay material here.

SORRY KELTIC, My bad! I asked AJ to post the link so we could see what had him concerned and confused. Hey AJ -- sorry I gotcha in trouble :( (you're not really in trouble!)

Maybe you could pick one or two arguments out of that Article that make you think: "hey maybe I got it wrong" and we can help you think it through.
So for instance you say something like: "Dr. Strangelove argues that gay marriage is bad because it will make ravens fly underwater and all the strawberries will taste like onions and that sort of makes sense to me" And we will explain to you why Dr. Strangelove is full of ... alligator spit.

Does that work Keltic?

[keltic63]

SORRY KELTIC, My bad! I asked AJ to post the link so we could see what had him concerned and confused. Hey AJ -- sorry I gotcha in trouble :( (you're not really in trouble!)


Does that work Keltic?


we love AJ, and he's not in trouble. I just wanted to remove that poison from the forum. You might recall many months ago we had a discussion about Robert Gagnon, who is a professor at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and for some reason is still employed there! The feeling on campus is that Gagnon "protests too much!" ;)

Yes, u-dog, I think a statement like "Dr. Doesn'tKnowItFromAHoleInTheGround says that all gay people are out to destroy marriage, that's why they want to be married." is better than posting whole essays about why "teh gays" are evil.

[u-dog]

we love AJ, and he's not in trouble. I just wanted to remove that poison from the forum. You might recall many months ago we had a discussion about Robert Gagnon, who is a professor at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, and for some reason is still employed there! The feeling on campus is that Gagnon "protests too much!" ;)

Yes, u-dog, I think a statement like "Dr. Doesn'tKnowItFromAHoleInTheGround says that all gay people are out to destroy marriage, that's why they want to be married." is better than posting whole essays about why "teh gays" are evil.


Gagnon is at PTS? How embarrassing! that's one of OUR seminaries. Yikes. I am mortified! Polly almost went there... but we decided to have babies instead. (Actually WE decided to have A baby ... God decided to make it plural!)

[AJLove]

Dont worry about it u-dog,and sorry again keltic. But ok I recall one of the pastors saying that God ONLY made Adam and Eve as a perfect creation so that can reproduce. Because if God put two men on the Earth or Two women that would just make a big mess.

[u-dog]

Dont worry about it u-dog,and sorry again keltic. But ok I recall one of the pastors saying that God ONLY made Adam and Eve as a perfect creation so that can reproduce. Because if God put two men on the Earth or Two women that would just make a big mess.


Hi AJ! Again, sorry for leading you astray :o but as you see, the powers that be are very forgiving. The backs of my hands where I got slapped hardly even hurt anymore! ;) (Kidding Keltic!!)

Adam and Eve. the Creation of the world. Genesis 1 and 2. The important thing to remember whenever you approach scripture, AJ, is to listen for what questions IT wants to answer rather than bring YOUR questions and forcing it to speak to you. You are very concerned right now about your sexuality and whether it can be pleasing to God. That is the question that you are bringing to Genesis. I understand that. BELIEVE ME I UNDERSTAND THAT. Every gay Christian here has done that. But its not helpful. Genesis was given to us to answer the questions that GOD wants us to have the answers to -- not to answer OUR questions. So you have to listen carefully not just for answers but for what the right questions are. Scripture will always tell you the right question to ask if you can "shut up" long enough to listen ;)

So what questions/answers does God want to bring us out of Genesis? Is it about the morality of homosexuality ? Is it about sex? well...not so much.
First, read the story of the creation in Genesis one. thats where God says "Let there be" and there is. Thats where the 7 days of creation are. Pay attention to what God says almost everyday. "God saw... and behold it was very good" (The only exception is Monday morning!! :lol: Boy! I can relate. Even God knew that Mondays were gonna suck!) The point that God CLEARLY wants us to know is that God made the world... and its good. In other words this is the right question: "Who made the world and is it basically good? or basically evil?" here is the right answer: "God made it and its VERY good" I think you will agree with me (and with God and the writer of Genesis) that this is a very important spiritual concept.

Is it important that the world was created in seven days? no. Big Bang theory, theory of evolution?... Those are ALL cool as long as you understand that GOD DID IT. and that IT IS VERY GOOD.

In the story of the creation of Eve you also have to pay attention to the details and the context. Yes, god does tell them to "be fruitful and multiply" and that is best and most easily done with a male and female who are sexually attracted to each other. Remember that Adam and Eve are not JUST the first two human beings. They are also a symbol or metaphor for ALL OF HUMANITY. The commandment to be fruitful and multiply is to the species as much as to the two individuals. I think you will agree that the species is pretty much all over the whole be fruitful and multiply thing.

But look more closely than that. what is the problem that first makes God go looking for a companion for "ha'adama" (which literally means "the earth creature" or "the human")? he looks at Adam and say "it is not good that the man should be alone" So God brings one animal after another to the human and asks the human to name it. the story says they go through the whole list, give everything a proper name, but when all is said and done... the human is still alone. An appropriate parter/helper (the Hebrew word is "Ezer") is NOT found among the creatures that are different from the human. So god puts the human to sleep and pulls out some bone and flesh and from it creates Eve. Adam sees her and says WOW! THIS IS IT! SOMEONE WHO IS LIKE ME! At last! Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh! Woohoo!

Have you experienced Adam's longing for a companion in your own life AJ? Have you experienced yet the JOY that Adam feels in this story at finally finding someone who is like him? some one who is made from the same stuff as you? Finding the person who is "bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh" is God's will for us. For most people that means someone of the opposite sex. but not for all of us... right?

Sometimes people make a big deal out of "complimentarity" thats the idea that males and females fit together physically and emotionally to fill in each others gaps. Complimentarity is a good thing and it is a true observation for how it is for most humans. But not for all. Its important to note that "complimenatarity" isn't whats happening in this story of creation of man and woman.

This isn't a story about Adam finding the perfect opposite compliment to himself. It isn't about him finding someone "different enough" from him to complete him. This story is about finding someone who is LIKE him. Eve is the perfect companion to Adam because she is made from the same stuff. The animals were no good as a companion because they were TOO DIFFERENT not because the weren't different enough.

When a gay or lesbian person finds their partner/helper in a person of the same sex they find the one "who at last is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" When we as GLBT people go looking for partners of the opposite sex things don't "fit" right emotionally and if we force it we hurt ourselves and others.

I know this from personal experience. Polly (who also posts here and will read this) is my wife. We have been married for 23 years and have had three amazing kids together. we have shared a full life with many joyful experiences. But I am gay. In many really important ways, Polly and I "don't fit" together. That fact has hurt us and wounded us. we have hurt and wounded each other in important ways. By the grace of God and through a hell of a lot of hard work and love our marriage has been -- on balance -- a blessing. But we made God bless us the hard way (as humans so often do :rolleyes:). I don't recommend it.

Every marriage has at its core the lust to create new life. The obvious form of this new life is babies... but that is NOT the only form that new life takes. Love, relationships to friends, works of compassion and justice in the community, creation of a hospitible home for others, the support that a spouse gives to your career... these are ALL forms of new life that ANY married couple can create together regardless of the sexes involved. Daniel and his husband ... Steve and his fiance Scott... PNG and her wife... Tdogg and her wife ... Dash and David (who met on THESE FORUMS and are now living together in Chicago) all have at the center of their relationships the desire to create new life. Many GLBT marriages also include new life in the form of babies and children.

Does this help? Go ahead and ask more questions.

Love,

U-dog

[AJLove]

What do you say to those who say that " if God wanted a man and man or a women and a women to be together then he would have made the right organs for them." This is one quote I'm still stuck on what to say or think when someone says this to me.

[Daniel]

What do you say to those who say that " if God wanted a man and man or a women and a women to be together then he would have made the right organs for them." This is one quote I'm still stuck on what to say or think when someone says this to me.

But this blog has some interesting food for thoughts.

http://jintoku.blogspot.com/

[u-dog]

What do you say to those who say that " if God wanted a man and man or a women and a women to be together then he would have made the right organs for them." This is one quote I'm still stuck on what to say or think when someone says this to me.

I'm no expert on the whole sex thing and perhaps others will chime in but...what organs do they think are ...um...missing? Do gay men and Lesbians complain about the lack of organs? There is a wide VARIETY of ways that the currently installed body parts can be used to please one's partner regardless of gender. There are really only TWO sexual organs anyway and everyone has them. They are called "the brain" and "skin" As long as both partners are equipped with a brain and skin ... it can work! ;)

[Daniel]

By those who are yakking about 'parts' is that, take away a chromosome, and we're all female! Our differences aren't what they seem. :D

The 'parts' fit together just fine thank you very much. Speaking for the male species, gay male sex (intercourse) can be very pleasurable, the prostate being being a site of pleasure and orgasm- a matter even straight men appreciate- at least the one's with female partners who know a thing or two. There is nothing that makes heterosexual intercourse better. Absolutely nothing.

And orgasm is an orgasm. Udog is correct: it all happens, properly speaking, in the mind, not the sexual organs.

[AJLove]

Ok I see. What about when people say a man and a woman is suppose to be together because the man has the seed to make give life.

[Daniel]

A little bit of research reveals that homosexuality it just as natural as heterosexual is concerned. It is evident in many species besides homo sapiens.

Here's one scientific perspective.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Nature-039-s-Homosexuality-41669.shtml

[u-dog]

Ok I see. What about when people say a man and a woman is suppose to be together because the man has the seed to make give life.

AJ. Babies are just ONE variety of new life that two people can create out of their love for one another. Polly and I made 3 of them. It was a wonderful life-changing experience. Wouldn't trade it for anything BUT... Our friends "A" and "J" just got married. They are two beautiful young men in their mid-twenties. People at church are SO happy for them (and they are so happy that they seem to "glow") A and J's love spills out all over the place onto the people around them. There is an older guy in our church, "B" who is struggling with very painful cancer. A and J visit him, bring him to church, sit with him and tease him at church suppers, let him flirt with them. Their marriage is the source of a kind of "new life" for B which is so beautiful to watch. OK, so no sperm and egg combo is involved in making this new life but... so what?

Some straight people are SO FOCUSED on how their "parts" fit together that they don't see the big picture of love. They don't see all the things that the brain and skin are doing and they don't see all the ways that love is at work in the world. Maybe THATS why God made gay people! To remind the straight people that its about more than inserting tab "A" into slot "B".

Dave/U-dog

[AJLove]

I really dont what to think about ex-gays did they really change. They are another reason why I have doubts. I read about this one guy who said he changed completely.So does that mean homosexuality is changeable.

[u-dog]

I really dont know what to think about ex-gays did they really change? They are another reason why I have doubts. I read about this one guy who said he changed completely.So does that mean homosexuality is changeable.

The person you want to answer this question is Brent, he is an EX-ex-gay (:D)

But here is what you need to know about the ex-gay movement. THERE IS NO SCIENCE BEHIND IT! Some church people think they have the whole homosexuality thing figured out (without any science to back them up) they designed a "therapy" to "fix" what they THINK is broken. There are NO (absolutely NONE -- zero --NADA) scientific studies of these programs that suggest that they work. THERE ARE LITERALLY THOUSANDS of glbt people who have been through them and are -- surprise! -- still glbt people. The ex-gay folks "blame the victim" and say that these are just folks who didn't want to change or wouldn't work hard enough blah blah blah. This is not true. These people didn't "change" because our sexuality is not changable. Almost ALL of the people who say that they HAVE been changed by "reparative" or "ex-gay" therapy are ON THE PAYROLL of some kind of ex-gay organization.

One way to expose these folks is to ask what they mean by "change" You are assuming when you hear the word "change" that they mean "no longer homosexual now hetero-sexual" Any reasonable person would ASSUME that this is what they mean by "cure" and "Change" . However, its very hard to nail them down about what they ACTUALLY mean. Sometimes they mean that they have their same sex attraction under control and they are living a celibate life. Sometimes they mean that they still have Same sex attractions but that they can now have sex with the opposite sex. They almost NEVER mean what you think they mean. They are SLIPPERY PEOPLE. Their definition of "success" is a MOVING TARGET.

Another problem is that you don't know who these "successful" people are. Were they really gay to start with? or were they bi-sexual? Or were they really straight people with some kind of sexual problem other than being gay? we just don't know because there is no science behind their program.

What we DO know is that MOST people who go through the programs fail to experience the change they desire and MANY people become depressed and lose their self esteem because they feel like they are not good enough or hard working enough or faithful enough. They come away feeling unworthy and unlovable. The ex-gay people ENCOURAGE them to feel this way so that they won't tell people what a CROCK OF S*** the whole ex-gay thing is.

AJ... its a lie. IF you are a gay man? And at 15 you may still have some uncertainty about that... thats ok ... But IF you are a gay man? You are just fine the way you are. God has a great life he wants for you to live as a gay man and you can live as a gay man in ways that will honor him and give him glory! Don't let anybody tell you that you are "broken"

[BrentRichards]

I really dont what to think about ex-gays did they really change. They are another reason why I have doubts. I read about this one guy who said he changed completely.So does that mean homosexuality is changeable.

AJ,

I lived in that world for a long time ... I know a very few people who actually claim to have changed in terms of their desires rather than just their behavior. The vast majority of people who enter upon a program of "change" end up miserable (I know of what I speak), and if they persist in their public insistence on their "success" they usually end up embarrassing themselves in a scandal. This has happened again and again. The original two founders of Exodus International, the biggest group hyping the possibility of change, will tell you all about the reality: They're now long-term partners, speaking out against the dangers of trying to make people (yourself included) change.

From my time running in ex-gay circles (15+ years), I can't tell you I ever met anyone who denied ever having "struggles" with ongoing homosexual desires. A very few lived long-term in heterosexual relationships. You'll find that when most people use the word "change" ... they don't really mean not BEING gay anymore, they mean not DOING gay anymore.

Is is possible that there are a few people who really do experience an awakened heterosexual desire, and never feel attracted to their own gender again? I don't know. I'm aware of some people who've claimed it, and then got caught in a gay bar. Whoops. I'm aware of some who live as heterosexuals, but do not claim to be absolutely free of gay desires. I do know that FAR AND AWAY, most people who try to change fail miserably ... I say "fail" not as a judgment, but in much the same way as I might say "Most people who try to learn to fly fail miserably." People get hurt in the process.

I know for me, I could shove my desires down for short periods of time, and I could (and did) resist "acting out" (as we called it) on my desires. But I never, ever experienced any real change in my desires. In my case, I never felt anywhere close to being able to respond to a woman sexually, despite the fact that I was once engaged, and on several other occasions was in a relatively serious relationship with women I was very close to emotionally, but couldn't be attracted to physically. I was tough, I was disciplined, I was "holy," and I was profoundly lonely and miserable. I don't believe that's what God wants of us.

I really want you to hear this, AJ ... about 12 years ago or so, I led a small group of men at my church who wanted to leave the "gay lifestyle." I told them that gay was wrong. That God called it sin. I told them they had their emotions mixed up, that they were seeking an emotional connection with their father in other men, and that, with time and discipline, they, like me, could stop doing that.

One night, after a meeting, one member told me how attracted he was to me, and how he wanted to kiss me. I dismissed his statements, and lied to him by telling him I didn't want that.

I was playing a game. Rarely a week goes by that I don't think of those men. I have no idea where they are or how to get in touch with them. I want to tell them something important: I was wrong. The lessons I was trying to teach them were people's lessons, not God's.

But I can't tell them. So I'll tell you. I was wrong. God loves you, AJ, just as you are. He's going to be all kinds of patient while you figure out how to love yourself just as you are. A lot of voices are going to tell you other things. They're people's voices. Filter them out, get quiet, and listen for God's!

[andrewlittle]

Ok I see. What about when people say a man and a woman is suppose to be together because the man has the seed to make give life.


Well, actually, that has NEVER been true. It is an archaic assumption about the supremecy of man and the inferiority of woman.

Ancient medicine (including the Biblical period) believed that the man's "seed" contained the undeveloped fetus, and that the woman simply provided the warm, wet place for the man's seed to develop. Couldn't have a woman contributing to the make-up of the baby, could we? This was actually called "preformation".

As late as the 16th century, van Leeuwenhoek (the inventor of the microscope) posited that each sperm contained little people, or humunculi. Around that same time a British puplication, the Master-Piece, discussed the concept of human embryos forming from a combination of the man's sperm and the woman's egg.

This is why it was such a sin for "seed" to hit the ground. All those tiny people dying in the process was just attrocious.

The real challenge to this archaic notion about the formation of new life comes from the documented cases in which some female reptiles have become pregnant and born offspring without donor sperm - it is like natural cloning. It is rare, but cements the notion that the egg is by far the more important element in reproduction.

[AJLove]

Thanks agian guys........... I recently heard a guy say that "God made a man for a women so that the man can protect the women and be the power of the family. God made the women for the man to be gentle and sweet and to keep the man calm. Therefore they complete each other. MW not WW MM. Their opposites. If you notice all of the universe seems to be put together by the attraction of opposites. Positive and negative charges attract. Positive and positive and negative and negative rebel. That's the way it should be.

[andrewlittle]

...because it certainly is not my intention.

Having read a lot of your posts, AJ, I began to wonder why you have posted a series of anti-GLBT arguments, and it's not just in this thread. Now, I know you have said that you are looking for refutations of these arguments, and some of your other posts certainly appear to say that you are a young gay person - so I DON'T think you are playing any kind of game with us. I wonder, however, if you may be playing a bit of a game with yourself.

Are you telling yourself that you are not equipped, or smart enough, or quick enough to reply to these statements when you hear them? If so, I think you need to change a little of your programming - you are certainly smart enough, but may need more confidence in yourself.

Try, just for the practice, telling us how you did respond - or how you think you should have responded, if you didn't (and it's perfectly okay to say you didn't for whatever reason - nobody's going to bust your chops here.) We could then offer suggestions or simply affirmation, which may go a long way to building confidence.

I could be way off base here, and if I am, I am very sorry. Whenever I hear a litany of questions about anything, I think to myself, "Here's someone who needs to be empowered to find the answer that is within them." We can give you answers, but they may not be your answers - you might just end up regurgitating our words. If, however, we can help you recognize that you possess the ability to answer for yourself, and maybe even help fine tune your answers some, then we have helped you develop more and find empowerment to be your own advocate.

That, for me, would be a noble goal. So, try it, if you will. Tell us what you think the answer to your last question is, and we'll give you feedback.

That is, unless people tell me I'm just being an old curmudgeon.

Thanks agian guys........... I recently heard a guy say that "God made a man for a women so that the man can protect the women and be the power of the family. God made the women for the man to be gentle and sweet and to keep the man calm. Therefore they complete each other. MW not WW MM. Their opposites. If you notice all of the universe seems to be put together by the attraction of opposites. Positive and negative charges attract. Positive and positive and negative and negative rebel. That's the way it should be.

You might even start by reading your questions, and looking to see what is inherently wrong or misdirected in them. What does the statement above say about men? About women? About social programming and cultural norms?

[BrentRichards]

Thanks agian guys........... I recently heard a guy say that "God made a man for a women so that the man can protect the women and be the power of the family. God made the women for the man to be gentle and sweet and to keep the man calm. Therefore they complete each other. MW not WW MM. Their opposites. If you notice all of the universe seems to be put together by the attraction of opposites. Positive and negative charges attract. Positive and positive and negative and negative rebel. That's the way it should be.

And this is the kind of thinking that likes to keep women barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

Relationships are indeed all about complimentarity. Complimentarity is, simply, about two different people. How different I am from any given person is not a function of our genders. Any successful relationship is going to involve two people who genuinely learn to compliment one another, not based on any stereotypical set of roles, but based on their own strengths, weaknesses, giftedness, and mutal decisions. Complementarity is PP (person-person), not MW, MM, or WW ... gender is incidental to individual difference.

Those who make the argument above, AJ, are people who want society to stay in "simple" terms of men in charge, women under control. You don't even have to get to the gay debate to see where that way of thinking is offensive and wrong-headed. Really, I tend to call these folks Neanderthals (club her on the head and drag her back to the cave) ... but that's not polite, is it?

[u-dog]

Thanks agian guys........... I recently heard a guy say that "God made a man for a women so that the man can protect the women and be the power of the family. God made the women for the man to be gentle and sweet and to keep the man calm. Therefore they complete each other. MW not WW MM. Their opposites. If you notice all of the universe seems to be put together by the attraction of opposites. Positive and negative charges attract. Positive and positive and negative and negative rebel. That's the way it should be.

AJ,

I don't know what universe this guy lives in ... but it isn't this one. I also would BET YOU that he isn't married... or if he IS MARRIED... he's a liar. I've been married for 23.5 years to a woman. sometimes I'm the strong one and she cries on my chest. sometimes SHE is the strong and I curl up with my head in HER lap. sometimes I protect her from the big bad world and sometimes she protects me. Sometimes I am the sweet one who keeps her calm and sometimes SHE is the sweet one that keeps me calm. this would be the same if we were both women or if we were both men. That whole "opposites attract" thing is true -- one person to another -- sort of. But to use that to prop up rigid stereotypes of how men and women should be... thats just not how it is in the real world. Two people who love each other, hold each other up and watch each others backs. Man, woman, it makes no difference.

[Pablo Rafael]

I will just disagree with the whole "opposites attract" idea from the start. That might be correct in magnetism, but does it happen a lot with people?

People naturally gravitate to groups of people with similar beliefs and interests. Look at the group here; we are talking together because we have a basic belief that LGBT people should not have to face discrimination. Even among the people of this group I feel closest to those who have similar views and beliefs to me.

I look at my own case. I am very easy-going, and I get along with easy-going people. I am gay and can communicate much easier with gay men than straight men. I get along better with people who have religious beliefs similar to mine. Unless I'm a total anomaly and as nutty as a fruitcake, I would say similarity attracts and common beliefs and interests keep people together for the long run.

Pablo

[AJLove]

Thanks again guys. Can someone please explain the whole deal with ex-gays again I beginning to be confuse and have doubts again. They even have scince to back their view up when they say it's "curable"

[u-dog]

Thanks again guys. Can someone please explain the whole deal with ex-gays again I beginning to be confuse and have doubts again. They even have scince to back their view up when they say it's "curable"


No, AJ, they DON'T have ANY science to back up their claims. ZERO! ZILCH! The AMerican Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, The American Psychological Association, The American Association of Social Workers ALL SAY THE EX-GAY or REPARATIVE "therapy is dangerous and ineffective. You have to ask them to be very clear about what they mean by "cure" Cure can mean any number of things and they move around when you try to pin them down

1. Do people STOP having same sex attraction and start having opposite sex attraction? No

2. Do people learn to suppress their same sex attraction so that they can live the rest of their lives alone without having sex . Maybe... a FEW people can manage that. is that a good thing?

3. Do they learn how to get aroused by a person of the opposite sex so that they can FUNCTION like a straight person even though they are still mostly attracted to others of the same sex? some... THIS IS NOT GOOD. Because just because you can "function like a straight person" NOW doesn't mean that you will ALWAYS be able to... and living a lie is COSTLY to your mental health. These people get married, have some kids and then realize they can't keep doing it forever. Their spouses get hurt, waste years of their lives, the kids are hurt. its not good.

There are NO STUDIES (reliable scientific ones) that show these therapies work. That is because they don't. There are lots of people who come out of them wounded psychologically.

Go back and read Brent's post from a week or so ago. Brent was involved with ex-gay ministries for FIFTEEN YEARS :eek: and experienced NO CHANGE in his orientation. he is NOT ALONE. He is the rule and not the exception.

Dave

[AJLove]

I also remember reading a article where it said that everyone is born a heterosexual but some people have a mental disorder where they are attracted to the same sex.

[u-dog]

I also remember reading a article where it said that everyone is born a heterosexual but some people have a mental disorder where they are attracted to the same sex.

AJ! Thats a Lie! NONE OF THE PROFESSIONAL MENTAL HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS BELIEVE THAT! It just isn't true. YOU ARE NOT BROKEN! You are NOT crazy. You are a healthy gay teenager. Don't buy into the lies about yourself. You are who God made you to be. You don't honor him by not loving the person he created.

[andrewlittle]

For every damn good explanation you get, you come up with another "yeah, but they say..."

Who are you listening to, and why are you giving them so much credibility?

I beginning to think that some of my suspicions are well founded, but I would love to be disappointed in that. Tell us what you think - how you would answer.

[AJLove]

I want to be happy with a life with my boyfriend but all thi stress and confusion is really hurting me. I just want to do the right thing. Sometimes I feel good about who I am then sometimes I dont. I dont mean any harm.:(

[u-dog]

He knows that! I told you, Uncle Andy is a CURMUDGEON ! He snarls when he wishes you a Happy birthday :lol:


Its because he's a straight person. They can never seem to get happy. I think heterosexuality may be a form of mental illness... I'm not sure :confused:

[andrewlittle]

I want to be happy with a life with my boyfriend but all thi stress and confusion is really hurting me. I just want to do the right thing. Sometimes I feel good about who I am then sometimes I dont. I dont mean any harm.:(


neither do I, AJ. My dream is that all people, especially young, growing, intelligent people, can find their answers within themselves - even if it takes some outside help.

I don't object to your questions - really, I don't. What I would love to see, however, is a young, proud, resourceful, articulate AJ tell these people they're full of s--t.

You are being lied to, AJ, and I hate seeing a young person, especially a young LGBT person, internalizing the poison that people are feeding you. Please, please, please - use us as a resource, but start telling us a little about how you would or wouldn't confront the situation. I am asking for interaction, so we know that what is being said is heard and not just floating out into cyberspace.

One more thing, AJ. I, just like many here, don't waste my time - I only interact with people I love and respect. Remember that - I am interacting with you, and I do love and respect you. I would like you to do the same for yourself.

[antonyh]

I want to be happy with a life with my boyfriend but all thi stress and confusion is really hurting me. I just want to do the right thing. Sometimes I feel good about who I am then sometimes I dont. I dont mean any harm.:(

Try to focus on the present, only the present. You mind is interpreting your experience. Be with your boyfriend. Enter your sex life. Love yourself and your man. Bracket your thoughts and let your beautiful creation speak for itself. Soon you'll see truth.

[u-dog]

Try to focus on the present, only the present. You mind is interpreting your experience. Be with your boyfriend. Enter your sex life. Love yourself and your man. Bracket your thoughts and let your beautiful creation speak for itself. Soon you'll see truth.

You sound like you're channeling Scotty. ;)

[antonyh]

You sound like you're channeling Scotty. ;)

Wow, that's almost too hot to contemplate :lol:

[AJLove]

Would it be wrong or sinful for me to have sexual intercourse with my spouse?
Am I suppose to live a life of celibacy

[u-dog]

Would it be wrong or sinful for me to have sexual intercourse with my spouse?
Am I suppose to live a life of celibacy

OK AJ,

Let me throw this one back to you. What do YOU think about that? Why are things wrong or sinful? Is it arbitrary? God says it and thats how it is? Or is there a reason behind whats wrong and whats right.

Murder is Wrong. But why? because God says so? or is it because a murder hurts not only the murdered person but also the murderer and everyone else in the community?

If you had a boyfriend and became very close to him and after a while the two of you decided you wanted to spend the rest of your lives together. You gathered your friends around you and pledged your faithfulness to each other in front of them and before God and then you went off and had sex together for the rest of your lives.

1. does it hurt or enrich you to do this? How?
2. does it hurt or enrich your beloved? How?
3. does it hurt or enrich the community? How?
4. does it hurt or glorify God for the two of you to commit yourselves to each other exclusively and to show your faithful, committed, self-offering love to the world?

Think about these questions and then let us know what you think! we'll push you to think deeper if we don't think you've gone far enough. We'll challenge you if we think you have gone in a wrong direction. But we'll be gentle.

You are always going to feel like a ping-pong ball batted back and forth between us and them if you don't forge your own answers to these questions!

On the day of judgement if god asks you: "Why did you have sex with other boys?" it won't do any good to say that "U-dog said it would be ok!"

On the other hand if God says: "I gave you the beautiful gift of homosexual orientation and the ability to love another man and you squandered it in pointless celibacy! Why?" It won't do any good to say "Dr. Dobson said it would be a sin" You need to be ready with AJ's answers. It's scarey to commit yourself sometimes but... you gotta. Remember this, though, you WON'T BE JUDGED based on whether you guessed right or guessed wrong about homosexuality. You are going to be judged according to the love that Jesus has for you... which is lots. So even if you make the wrong decision about this? you can't separate yourself from the love that God has for you!

Or the love that WE have for you! :love:

NOW! Get busy and tell us what you are thinking!

WOULD IT BE WRONG FOR YOU TO HAVE A SPOUSE AND HAVE SEX WITH HIM?

DOES GOD INSIST THAT YOU BE CELIBATE?

WHY?

[AJLove]

As of right now my stomach is tuning and I've been having serious headaches and not doing so good in school because of being confused on right thing is. I do believe that God loves me though and wants me to be happy. With me I am easily manipulated so that's what making this harder. Society seems to be molding me and trying to change me.I'm beginning to be bothered by things that never bothered me before. For example now I feel watching television and movies that only show heterosexuality and I say to myself "is that the right way". I've been with a girl before but I broke up with her because I was confused but she helped me through it and we are still best friends today. I am very emotionally attached to her. But I feel that I forced myself to be sexually attracted to her. With the guy I'm with now when we kiss it's all there with her all I felt were her lips nothing more or less than that. I'm scared and confused. I dont want to go to hell for the things that I do. I want to maintain the relationship that I'm in now,sex and all. However sex is not all we think about. My boyfriend and I talk about the society and homosexuality and how hard it is and what's changing. We even have plans to go to the same college and eventually move together. I'm also afraid of being distant from my family. My mother is the only one that knows about me. So yes this is how I feel this is why I'm hurting and afraid to burn for all eternity.:'(...........:pray:help me ...please

[andrewlittle]

But, I'm willing to bet that a great many of us will ride along with you to help how and where we can.

I think, for what it's worth, that the issues you need to deal with are not only related to what other people are saying to you, but more importantly how you may be internalizing what you have heard throughout your life.

Addressing your own internal voices - especially those that are "tape recordings" of other people's - can be hard work. It is, however, very important and beneficial work. I think you have crossed a very important hurdle in your last post that will make the journey much more effetcive for you.

First, I am going to ask you to make a leap of faith - I want you to assume, no matter what else goes through your mind, that GOD loves you as a beloeved child - and that we do as well. This is a tough thing to ask, because all those voices imbedded in your head are telling you otherwise. So, I ask that several times a day you repeat a mantra to yourself (or out loud, if the opportunity is right) that says, "I AM made in the image of GOD - I am a beloved child of GOD."

As of right now my stomach is tuning and I've been having serious headaches and not doing so good in school because of being confused on right thing is. I do believe that God loves me though and wants me to be happy. (GOOD!) With me I am easily manipulated so that's what making this harder. Society seems to be molding me and trying to change me. I'm beginning to be bothered by things that never bothered me before. For example now I feel watching television and movies that only show heterosexuality and I say to myself "is that the right way". I've been with a girl before but I broke up with her because I was confused but she helped me through it and we are still best friends today. I am very emotionally attached to her. But I feel that I forced myself to be sexually attracted to her. With the guy I'm with now when we kiss it's all there with her all I felt were her lips nothing more or less than that. I'm scared and confused. I dont want to go to hell for the things that I do. I want to maintain the relationship that I'm in now,sex and all. However sex is not all we think about. My boyfriend and I talk about the society and homosexuality and how hard it is and what's changing. We even have plans to go to the same college and eventually move together. I'm also afraid of being distant from my family. My mother is the only one that knows about me. So yes this is how I feel this is why I'm hurting and afraid to burn for all eternity............help me ...please

Fear! That is the root of it - and don't feel lonely, AJ, it is at the root of most of our major concerns. You have taken a huge step. Unlike your earlier posts, which repeated what others said to you, you have stated out loud what you say to yourself. GOOD FOR YOU, AJ, GOOD FOR YOU.

What is the biggest fear you have regarding your sexuality? Is it estrangement from family - or the burning in hell part? I'll let you answer that, first.

[Zerbie]

Sweet baby. :'( :love:

:(:'(:'(:love::love:

You do not NEED to have "the right answers" now, or ever. You want peace of mind, that I can tell. But perhaps it will help if you know it is OKAY not to know what to make of "the gay issue." It is OKAY if you aren't sure and don't understand.

From what you describe, you have a best girl friend who you love and who loves you, and you have a lovely boyfriend with whom you feel the sparks and the fireworks. Can you, maybe, just enjoy having people in your life who you love, who love you? Without taking on a huge philosophical burden right now?

You can absolutely live a wonderful, happy, fulfilling life full of friends AND family - yes, you can have all of that, AS a gay man, if that's what you are.

My conviction, my certainty, is God will never leave you to sink into torture without rushing in to scoop you out and comfort you in his arms. I know it. But as U dog wisely stated, YOU have to, someday, come to your own understanding, and base your life on what YOU are certain of.

It can be so scary floundering around on this issue and wondering which way is up - it's like being underwater and wanting to breathe. I know that. :( But you CAN take mental breaks from this crisis - just allow yourself to be AJ. :) Maybe you can even use your art as a way of exploring and processing your questions and your fears. Treat this topic in poems, songs, maybe draw it, or improvise on the keyboard the music that describes your feelings. Our art can be therapy too.

AJ: you ARE loved exactly as you are. God looks at your HEART and all he sees is his beloved child. He is not like a human being - human beings can be rejecting when they misunderstand. God does not misunderstand, and does not reject.

Hold on. :pray: Hold on, baby. :pray: Hang in there. There is a lifetime of joy, friendship, theater & art, and deep true love in your future. Your job now is to hang on until you get there.

:love::love::love::love::love::love::love:

[AJLove]

What is the biggest fear you have regarding your sexuality? Is it estrangement from family - or the burning in hell part? I'll let you answer that, first.

Thank you Zerbie and andrewlittle. Now to answer your questions.Many times my family have given signs that do not approve of homosexuality. Things like "I won't talk you anymore,or claim you". I even asked questions on how they felt. And let me tell you.........they were NOT good answers. I wnat to move out of state but I dont want to leave my mother and my little brother alone even though my mother disapproves of me. I love her I really do. Right not she doesnt know about me and my bf. I told her that I'm done with that lifestyle and I'm trying to change. She asked me was I sure and I said yes. However it does help that I go to a school where I have openly gay and lesbian friends, and straight ones that accept me too. They love me and I know it. My mom asked me why I wasnt ready to get baptized.......I never told her why......I just said I wasnt ready. I want to get baptized when I have a revolution in my life that I'm happy with. As for burning in hell that is my biggest fear. I help with my community by doing volunteer work. I dont fight I dont believe in violence. I love making people feel better. But despite and I know God is happy with that. But I just dont want to Burn in hell because of a lifestyle that made me happy less stressful and less confused. I also remember one day talking on the phone with my bf. I said how far would you go for me he said " I go any where and beyond for you." If loving someone is wrong then why love at all. I'll risk my life for him. I want to stand face to fate with God and ask him how can I live happy if I'm not?

[andrewlittle]

Thank you Zerbie and andrewlittle. Now to answer your questions.Many times my family have given signs that do not approve of homosexuality. Things like "I won't talk you anymore,or claim you". I even asked questions on how they felt. And let me tell you.........they were NOT good answers. I wnat to move out of state but I dont want to leave my mother and my little brother alone even though my mother disapproves of me. I love her I really do. Right not she doesnt know about me and my bf. I told her that I'm done with that lifestyle and I'm trying to change. She asked me was I sure and I said yes. However it does help that I go to a school where I have openly gay and lesbian friends, and straight ones that accept me too. They love me and I know it. My mom asked me why I wasnt ready to get baptized.......I never told her why......I just said I wasnt ready. I want to get baptized when I have a revolution in my life that I'm happy with. As for burning in hell that is my biggest fear. I help with my community by doing volunteer work. I dont fight I dont believe in violence. I love making people feel better. But despite and I know God is happy with that. But I just dont want to Burn in hell because of a lifestyle that made me happy less stressful and less confused. I also remember one day talking on the phone with my bf. I said how far would you go for me he said " I go any where and beyond for you." If loving someone is wrong then why love at all. I'll risk my life for him. I want to stand face to fate with God and ask him how can I live happy if I'm not?

My dear sweet lad, take a deep breath and think deeply about who and what God is. {Beware - the rest of this may be decidedly Christian in tone.}

God sent God's only child to this earth to bring a message of hope and salvation. God claims each and every one of us as God's own - we are able to love, only because God has loved us first - loved us enough to bear the brunt of humanity's inhumanity in order to tell us how much we are loved and forgiven.

LOVE is not, and has never been a sin. Sin is what occurs when we knowingly turn our back on the love extended by God - it is impossible to do that while acting in love for someone else. When someone says, "You will burn in hell for loving someone of the same sex", are they talking about what God thinks, or elevating their own shame-filled belief system to the level of being a god? That is idolatry, AJ, and it turns a back to the hesed (the Hebrew concept of God's endless loving kindness) of God. You are not the one sinning.

Next, you are a young man. You are still learning about who and what you are. You are still trying to live into the creature that God made you. To deny your gayness would be to turn your back on the God who does not make mistakes, just as it would be a grave error for me to turn away from being the person God created me to be. By embracing your nature - it is not a lifestyle, since a lifestyle encompasses activities that are purely choices - you are embracing and honoring the work of our creator God in this world. To deny your nature, or to try to convince someone else to do so, is to turn a back towards the Creator, and to take upon oneself the right to judge as good or bad what God has made. It would be arrogance.

Right now, AJ, face God and ask. Ask God how you could possibly be happy if you deny the nature God has breathed into you. I believe God will embrace you in your prayer, and hold you in love - crying right along with your for the inhumanity you are experiencing.

God is your creator, and you honor that. How do I know? because you said you want to stand before God and ask a question. People who turn away from God might try to play God, but they live in fear of God because of their own feelings of guilt. They then try to project their own fears onto others in the hope they will be justified. You just keep being willing to look God in the eyes, AJ. There is no shame in who God has made you to be.

[Zerbie]

Thank you Zerbie and andrewlittle. Now to answer your questions.Many times my family have given signs that do not approve of homosexuality. Things like "I won't talk you anymore,or claim you". I even asked questions on how they felt. And let me tell you.........they were NOT good answers.

I'm sorry to hear that baby. :( I cannot understand how they could under any circumstance suggest that they would not want you. :'( Someday, when you come out to them as an adult, these responses may change. They often do. Families, especially parents, want their little ones around, and parents of gay kids learn to extend support to that gay child, sometimes even if they never do understand *being* gay. They grow, because they want to know their child better.

I wnat to move out of state but I dont want to leave my mother and my little brother alone even though my mother disapproves of me.

You are a loving and dutiful son and brother. Can you believe God would disapprove of you being who you are, and of loving someone else with that kind of care and faithfulness?
As for the dutiful son thing, that is good, in balance. Make sure you also take care of your own needs. Do not discount the need to grow and differentiate into your own person as an adult. It's a necessity. You will find a balance between your own needs and your family relationships.


As for burning in hell that is my biggest fear.

:'(:'(:'(

I help with my community by doing volunteer work. I dont fight I dont believe in violence. I love making people feel better. But despite and I know God is happy with that. But I just dont want to Burn in hell because of a lifestyle that made me happy less stressful and less confused. I also remember one day talking on the phone with my bf. I said how far would you go for me he said " I go any where and beyond for you." If loving someone is wrong then why love at all. I'll risk my life for him. I want to stand face to fate with God and ask him how can I live happy if I'm not?

Oh AJ. :love::love::love:

Ask Him. :dove: Go someplace quiet by yourself, go deep into prayer and ask him.

No one is qualified to answer whether or not you are "safe" on this point, except God. All the people you talk to will give you their personal answers. So instead of asking people, ask God.

You obviously love and trust God - trust him with the question. A question this important really can't be trusted to other people, *no matter how loving, kind, smart, well-meaning they are.*

[AJLove]

Just a few moments a go my mother made me promise her not to keep secrets from her and that I should never hole anything from here. But before this I prayed to got to help me find my way and for him to help my mother understand me among other situations. I want to tell here about my love life my friends at school.........everything but I'm afraid that if I do I wont get the reaction I want. Plus I dont want to move to fast.I want her to understand more than just one perspective. I want here to look at PFLAG and other organizations. But I know it will be hard for her.Very hard since she's very religious now. And s stuck on the idea that what I am is a choice and that what I am is a sin. So what should I do? I dont want to hold secrets from her but at the same time I feel that I have too to prevent anyone from getting hurt. She also has a hard time being wrong and with the church we're going to now being against homosexuality she will see it as I need to be saved and seperated from the people who are "turning me out." Help me. What do I do?

[dsdrane]

AJ --

You're in 11th grade, right? So, that makes you, what, 16 or 17, right?

Also, do you think you could give me/us a little better clue of where you are in the country? I understand your family is Baptist, but, if your school has a GSA, you can hardly be in the Bible Belt.

Right?

Also, I'm curious about your boyfriend's family/parent(s). Is he out to them? If so, how has their reaction been? Is his family also Baptist?

I ask these things not because I'm a nosy person; but, rather, given the questions you're asking here (not to mention the kind of urgent tone), I think it would help if you gave us a little more information (while still protecting your anonymity, of course).

[AJLove]

Yes I'm in the 11th grade, but I'll just turn 16 in a few months. I live in Mt.Clemens,MI. My family are Baptist. I do not attend the GSA meetings because I do not want my mother finding out about it. my boyfriend's mom knows about him his family is Baptist too. She doesnt approve of it though. She thinks it's a sin like my mom.

[dsdrane]

Yes I'm in the 11th grade, but I'll just turn 16 in a few months. I live in Mt.Clemens,MI. My family are Baptist. I do not attend the GSA meetings because I do not want my mother finding out about it. my boyfriend's mom knows about him his family is Baptist too. She doesnt approve of it though. She thinks it's a sin like my mom.

OK, cool...so is that considered a suburb of Detroit?

At the risk of sounding geographically-snobby, I'm glad you're north of the Mason-Dixon line...it just makes everything a little easier.

15, almost 16, though is tough. So is high school, for that matter, but that doesn't sound like it's as much of a problem for you. It's really home that is the issue, yes?

Unfortunately, there is no cure for youth -- especially youth at home where the parents' rules...um...rule.

I'm no specialist in these matters, but, it seems to me that you're kind of stuck for the time being. You may have to make compromises with your mother, but, fortunately, you have time on your side: time to talk with her; time for her to learn more; time for opinions to change; time for attitudes to change.

There's no guarantee, of course, but the effort is almost always worth it.

Soon, sooner than you think, high school will be over, and you'll be headed off to college or some other pursuit, when you can really begin your adult life.

For now, don't rush things. Start preparing for your "some day" now. It sounds like you have started the hard work necessary...good for you. Keep learning; keep searching.

I'd go to the GSA meetings...I'm sure they have a policy of anonymity. And I'd find a church that is more accepting. I think that'll help a lot!

[Pablo Rafael]

AJ,

My advice is to relax, take a deep breath and take things easy. You have a lot of friends here who are on your side. And God is also on your side. I am keeping you in my prayers.

First of all you have no obligation to tell your mother everything. Not that I am encouraging dishonesty, but you need to evaluate what information is wise to reveal at the current time. I really do think it is important to "come out" to people close to you. However, I recommend you really evaluate whether coming out to your mom now is best or waiting a few years would be better. Only you can decide what is best for you. It might be much easier for you (and your mom) if you are on your own and independent, or now might be the time.

When you come out, you need to make sure that it is at a time of your choosing. Don't feel pressured to make any decision or reveal information until you are ready to. You think that there will be a negative reaction on the part of your family. My advice is to be sure that you are ready to handle that conflict. You need to be confident that YOU are OK with being gay and that YOU can handle the negativity.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[u-dog]

AJ,

Sorry I wasn't here yesterday but I am out of town right now and don't have access to computers here. All the advice you have gotten so far sounds really good to me. Especially Pablo's. You are just 15 and you have LOTS of time to figure this stuff out.

Do I understand that your Mom already knows/thinks that you are gay and that you have gone back into the closet? Or does she really not know? Either way... there is no need to rush about coming out to her. When you have gone off to college is soon enough. I"m not encouraging you to be dishonest, but this is important information about yourself and you have a right to control that information and to share it ONLY when that feels right and safe to you. KEEP YOURSELF SAFE!! that is the most important thing.

I hear that you have really strong feelings for your boyfriend and thats fine. But I'm wondering ... if you have spiritual doubts about the "OK-ness" of your gay feelings, might it be a good idea to back off on the sexual expression of your love for him? SHouldn't you maybe wait until you get this all squared away with God? I'm not suggesting you break up with him... just cool it off while you think through what your convictions?

About burning in Hell. I'll say this as clearly as possible. GOD SAVES US BECAUSE OF HIS LOVE FOR US!! Not because we earn it or deserve it. If salvation were about what WE DO we would ALL BURN IN HELL!!! IF YOU TRULY RECIEVE THE FREE GIFT OF GRACE (forgiveness) OFFERED IN CHRIST JESUS YOU ARE SAVED!!! PERIOD!!

GOD LOVES YOU! YOU ARE SAVED! NOW decide how you want to honor GOd with your life. If you think that you love for another man honors GOD than do it (I THINK THAT IT CAN... but you knew that already)

I'll be back home tomorrow night! know that God loves you and I AM PRAYING FOR YOU!! :pray::pray::pray::pray::pray:


have you thought about calling the TREVOR HELP LINE?

[AJLove]

Also for some reason I'm scared of getting baptized. I also feel that something is missing between my relationship with God. Someone said it's the sin ("my homosexuality") that's keeping me from persevering.

[gman620]

I'm very sorry for the difficult time you've had. I'm not a Baptist (I'm Catholic) and I don't know much about the Baptist Church, but when I saw your post I thought I'd share something with you. Try checking out http://www.rainbowbaptists.org/. It's an affirming site for Baptists. Maybe it will provide some useful help to you. Good luck and God bless.

[Daniel]

Also for some reason I'm scared of getting baptized. I also feel that something is missing between my relationship with God. Someone said it's the sin ("my homosexuality") that's keeping me from persevering.

Believe me. I've been around the block with this sort of thing. Baptism or not, nothing weird or strange is going to happen to you either way.

Much is made of baptism as though, somehow, one is going to have some kind of transcendant experience. This doesn't prove to be the case for the majority of people. You get pushed under the water and then....well...the sky's don't open. Sure. You might have some inner mystical experience. But you are more likely to have that kind of experience sitting quietly in prayer or contemplation. And 'worry' thoughts keep that kind of experience miles and miles away.

The truth is this: these experiences only have the meaning we give them. And if we hang everything on to them- that is- put a heck of a lot of expectation on them- we are setting ourselves up for a big fall. Do you really think God gives two hoots about whether you get dunked under? Besides which, baptism in the bible is an outward expression of an inward condition, not a litmus test.

Getting bent out of shape because of someone else's expectations of what you should feel, do and be, speaks for itself. So, if I were you, I would take a deep breath, step back, and think about what you are doing, why you are doing it, and who you think you are doing it for. If mommy or daddy or your pastor is on the list....the buzzer that you just heard go off means......think again.

To thy own self be true.

Pleasing others to get their validation is a sure fire way to wind up pissed off and angry. Know why? You can never really please other people. Pleasing people means that one jumps through their hoops. And if people truly love one, they don't make you jump through their hoops. Hoops alway come with judgment. Always. Their very presence says "I'll love you if....."

The only thing missing is some discernment on your part. There is nothing wrong with being gay. Get a handle on that and you won't be circling over the same mental territory over and over again.

Why do you keep listening to people who make you feel confused and unhappy? Ask yourself that. What are you getting out of it?

The thing here is this: you're gonna have to get used to listening to your own inner Still Small Voice, and not get it mixed up with all that other yammering in your head- you know- all the stuff that other well-meaning but clueless folks have dropped in there. And one only does this by getting quiet.

Do this and I bet you will find that your relationship with God is just fine.

[u-dog]

Also for some reason I'm scared of getting baptized. I also feel that something is missing between my relationship with God. Someone said it's the sin ("my homosexuality") that's keeping me from persevering.


AJ,

Here is another possibility. When you are gay and in the closet, you close yourself off from yourself and from other people that you might love. So much of our lives are intertwined with our sexuality that when we hide our sexuality .. we also hide the rest of ourselves. This makes intimacy of ANY KIND very difficult. Being in the closet can also seperate us from feeling intimacy with God. I had this experience and I know that several others here can attest to the experience also. When I came out to myself and my wife... I felt a SUDDEN closeness to God that I had never felt before.

SO>... one theory is that its your "sin" that is holding you apart. Sin can do that but that would assume that your homosexuality IS a sin, which of course we here don't believe.

The other theory is that you are not only "in the closet" to others you are "in the Closet" to God and when you finally feel like you can offer your WHOLE SELF to God (including your sexual nature) you will again feel closer to God.

I go with theory two. I hope you will also.

:love::pray:

U-dog

[Pablo Rafael]

AJ,

I really have to agree with Dave on this one. (I hate doing that! I really do. The guy has a big enough ego as it is.)

I battled with God for years. I would tell God to remove these homosexual desires from me; he never would. I would get mad at God and be frustrated at his lack of response. Since I came to grips with being gay and became convinced that God wanted me to be just the way I am, I have been much closer to God and feel a much stronger connection to him.

Yes there is sin. I believe that sin separates us from God. However, I am firmly convinced that being gay is NOT one of those sins. Sometimes our actions may be sinful. I think each person has to listen to his/her own conscience. If our actions are motivated by love, if we love God and love each other so that we will not do anything that would hurt another person, then it is NOT sinful; it is following the will of the Lord. I ask myself why I am doing something. Is it for selfless reasons? Does it show respect for others? Does it show that I have respect for myself? If so it is NOT sinful. I can tell you for certain that the feelings I have towards other men are NOT sinful. Don't let others tell you what is a sin; I think each person can feel that in his own heart. Let your heart be your guide.

Also I believe that baptism is the perfect place to let the Holy Spirit speak to us and work in our lives. We need not be perfectly in tune with God to be baptized. (Who ever is perfectly in tune?) For it is God who comes to us and works in us at baptism; it is not that we go to God.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[AJLove]

People like James Hartline put me on edge. He kind of concerns me that you can change. but then again no. He say's God has fully delivered him from his sin and the God is punishing gays with the wildfire and other natural disasters.And the only reason he hasnt destroyed the other gay communities is because he's being patient and waiting for his children to realize their sin. But if this is such a sin why doesnt God fix this in the animal kingdom as well?

[u-dog]

Now you're cookin!

You're exactly right. There was an article in our local paper last week (in relation to a "love won out" conference that was held here) where a a guy said that after 10 years of prayerful work on it... he was now free of the "homosexual lifestye". he said that it was hard but if somebody REALLY wants to ... they can change . TEN YEARS !!!! :eek: Yikes! if God can change gay people to straight... WHY DOES IT TAKE TEN YEARS??!! (that guy needs to get a new god - one that works a little faster) and as you say... why doesn't he cure all the gay swans and sheep while he's at it.

Reason: Because he doesn't WANT TO!! Because he loves his gay rams and lesbian swans (and all the other 1500 species where homosexual behavior has been documented)

[AJLove]

Some people say that ex-ex-gays lose faith that's why they gave up and when back to a sinful lifestyle. Could this be the case for some people or it isnt true at all?

[Zerbie]

Some people say that ex-ex-gays lose faith that's why they gave up and when back to a sinful lifestyle. Could this be the case for some people or it isnt true at all?

Dear AJ,

If sincere desire to be "free of homosexual desires" could make men straight, I know dozens upon dozens of men who WOULD BE straight now, IF that were the case.

People leave the ex-gay camps when they discover that they aren't being "exed" of their gay nature. Either they tragically blame themselves for "failing" the program, or they figure out that the premise of changing one's nature is a false premise to begin with - one which wreaks considerable psychological harm on many who attempt it.

[u-dog]

Some people say that ex-ex-gays lose faith that's why they gave up and when back to a sinful lifestyle. Could this be the case for some people or it isnt true at all?

The tragic thing (or one of the many tragic things) about the so-called ex-gay "ministries" is that when people find that they CAN"T change they think that its because their faith wasn't strong enough or becuase can't love them and so they walk away not just from the ex-gay ministry but away from God as well.

But make no mistake... the loss of faith is a result of the false teachings of the ex-gay ministries and NOT the other way around.

[AJLove]

I just recently got into an argument with my mom about homosexuality and why it's natural. And even after all the information I told her from biblical misinterpretations the animal kingdom she still said,"it's not right, if God wanted you to be a women he would have made you one. I have nothing against gay people, I just dont approve of what they are. It's a choice,you are not born that way. Why would God create you like that. Just keep praying and having faith and your homosexual feeling wills subside." I told her that God can change me if he want to. She said" Then open your heart to him and let him change you. It's not right God didnt create Adam and Steve." I laughed at her and said "Do you know how old and funny that phrase is?" Pray and pray hard and you will change." I even told her about Exodus International and all the damage they do and have done. I even mentioned about homeless GLBT youth that run away from there homes because there being neglected and emotionally(sometimes physically)bruised by their families. She responded by saying "You can't make a person straight(her mistake who's side is she on?). But you can cant be born like that some people get abused or where raped in there past life to make them that way(her other mistake)? " Yes,for some people that is true,but what about the rest?" I said "I dont know." she said than the conversation carried on from there. And ended with you need to go talk to the pastor.

PS: She also said " Gay people cant have committed relationships. They never work and they dont last long. It's not like they last up to 30 to 40 years." I laughed inside and said to myself you dont know how silly you sound. There are many committed and dedicated gay couples. Whether your straight or gay you cheat,steal, cry,eat etc.

[Zerbie]

Ishe still said,"it's not right, if God wanted you to be a women he would have made you one. I have nothing against gay people, I just dont approve of what they are.

PS: She also said " Gay people cant have committed relationships. They never work and they dont last long. It's not like they last up to 30 to 40 years." I laughed inside and said to myself you dont know how silly you sound. There are many committed and dedicated gay couples. Whether your straight or gay you cheat,steal, cry,eat etc.

Oh dear AJ,

:( This is not about you being a woman. :disagree: How much sense does that make?? Being gay does not mean a man thinks he is (or wants to be) a woman. (that would be transgender, anyway.)

More importantly: There is no logical way she can "not have anything against " a group of people but "just" not "approve" of "what they are." This would be like me telling her I have nothing against her but I just don't approve of her being a woman. I withdraw my approval from what she is. Oh, but I have nothing against her. How much sense would that make?

AJ, I'm really sorry you are having this tremendous conflict with your mother, and I have no idea what to advise, so I won't try. I will simply clarify facts which are getting buried in all the arguments and chaos.

She is incorrect about gay couples. There are many happy gay couples in mutually uplifting relationships. I had a gay family member who lived in love with his partner for 35 years until death parted them.

Best of luck with the process AJ. Hang in there.

[tpdncr4christ]

I just recently got into an argument with my mom about homosexuality and why it's natural. And even after all the information I told her from biblical misinterpretations the animal kingdom she still said,"it's not right, if God wanted you to be a women he would have made you one. I have nothing against gay people, I just dont approve of what they are. It's a choice,you are not born that way. Why would God create you like that. Just keep praying and having faith and your homosexual feeling wills subside." I told her that God can change me if he want to. She said" Then open your heart to him and let him change you. It's not right God didnt create Adam and Steve." I laughed at her and said "Do you know how old and funny that phrase is?" Pray and pray hard and you will change." I even told her about Exodus International and all the damage they do and have done. I even mentioned about homeless GLBT youth that run away from there homes because there being neglected and emotionally(sometimes physically)bruised by their families. She responded by saying "You can't make a person straight(her mistake who's side is she on?). But you can cant be born like that some people get abused or where raped in there past life to make them that way(her other mistake)? " Yes,for some people that is true,but what about the rest?" I said "I dont know." she said than the conversation carried on from there. And ended with you need to go talk to the pastor.

PS: She also said " Gay people cant have committed relationships. They never work and they dont last long. It's not like they last up to 30 to 40 years." I laughed inside and said to myself you dont know how silly you sound. There are many committed and dedicated gay couples. Whether your straight or gay you cheat,steal, cry,eat etc.

Ask her to pray with you. When she prays I can almost bet that she will pray for God to change you. When you pray, pray for God to turn you into the man He wants you to be. Don't mention anything else. Just ask God in front of your mother, with your mother, to turn you into the man He created you to be, to make you the best you can be, and to serve Him in whatever He needs. She will get it eventually that when you are praying for what God wants, and God doesn't change anything, then maybe God likes what He did with you the first time. Just a suggestion, it worked really well with my folks.

[u-dog]

AJ!!

What a FANTASTIC job you did holding your own with your mom! Way to go guy! :agree: She brought up EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT IN THE BOOK and you dealt with them one at a time!! and it sounds like you never lost your cool! I am so proud of you! Woohoo! :weee:

Of course you didn't change her mind... that will take a long time. But you planted some seeds and thats all you can do. Don't forget that you have had a long time to work on this issue and to do the homework to find out the truth. and to think it all through. She is still in the early stages. Plus YOU know what being gay feels like from the inside out and she won't ever have that experience.

Good work buddy! :award::award:

[u-dog]

Ask her to pray with you. When she prays I can almost bet that she will pray for God to change you. When you pray, pray for God to turn you into the man He wants you to be. Don't mention anything else. Just ask God in front of your mother, with your mother, to turn you into the man He created you to be, to make you the best you can be, and to serve Him in whatever He needs. She will get it eventually that when you are praying for what God wants, and God doesn't change anything, then maybe God likes what He did with you the first time. Just a suggestion, it worked really well with my folks.


AJ<

I don't know why people say that Austin isn't smart! This is a REALLY GOOD IDEA!! ;)

[Zerbie]

Ask her to pray with you. When she prays I can almost bet that she will pray for God to change you. When you pray, pray for God to turn you into the man He wants you to be. Don't mention anything else. Just ask God in front of your mother, with your mother, to turn you into the man He created you to be, to make you the best you can be, and to serve Him in whatever He needs. She will get it eventually that when you are praying for what God wants, and God doesn't change anything, then maybe God likes what He did with you the first time. Just a suggestion, it worked really well with my folks.

This is brilliant.

:award:

[snuka12000]

I have been where you are and I'm still going through some things.

1) Read STRANGER AT THE GATE: To Be Gay And Christian In America by Mel White. This book changed my life. Ask your mother to read this book.

2) I suggest that you work with a gay psychologist to help you work through some of your issues.

3) Maybe you should considered leaving that church and going to a gay/gay-friendly church. It's not spiritually or mentally healthy for you to be in a church that attacks you and doesn't accept you for who you are.

4) Make friends with people that are gay. They can by a support for you.

5) Hold on! It's okay to be gay. God made you who you are. God loves you for who you are! You're beautiful in the eyes of the LORD.

[u-dog]

I have been where you are and I'm still going through some things.

1) Read STRANGER AT THE GATE: To Be Gay And Christian In America by Mel White. This book changed my life. Ask your mother to read this book.

2) I suggest that you work with a gay psychologist to help you work through some of your issues.

3) Maybe you should considered leaving that church and going to a gay/gay-friendly church. It's not spiritually or mentally healthy for you to be in a church that attacks you and doesn't accept you for who you are.

4) Make friends with people that are gay. They can by a support for you.

5) Hold on! It's okay to be gay. God made you who you are. God loves you for who you are! You're beautiful in the eyes of the LORD.


Snuka,

Just a reminder that AJ is 15 and doesn't maybe have the freedom to safely follow some of your advice. He may have to sit tight for a few years until he can be out on his own.

[snuka12000]

u-dog,

AJ is 15 but I'm sure that he has been through a lot and that he is very mature and wise. I am confident that AJ can sift through some of the things that I suggested and apply what he can apply now and not apply what he can't now because he is still living at home.

What I'm telling AJ, I wish somebody would have told me when I was 15 so that I'd at least have the knowledge. After I got the knowledge, I would have been more able to make my moves with wisdom and confidence instead of fear and ignorance.

AJ's mother knows that he is gay and that's good. It's good that he fights that battle now. Some of the things that I suggested AJ can do without his mother knowing.

The first that I suggested would be good for AJ to do because his mother already knows that AJ is gay. Perhaps reading that book will open AJ's mother's eyes and enlighten her. AJ can make gay friends without his mother knowing, trust me on that. It is possible for AJ to work with a gay psychologist without his mother knowing.

The only thing that AJ may have to hold off on is leaving his church. I was a church-goer and I understand how that goes.

-snuka12000

[ladyinred]

If God wanted people to change their sexual orientation, wouldn't he have given them the means and a way to do so that would not lead to failure. Wouldn't he based on the sincerity of person's prayer who wants to change answer those prayers and help the person overcome it and be free of it ?Why would God set such people up to fail then?

[AJLove]

I just read an article saying that the whole homosexuality in animals things is a myth. It said that animals display homosexual behavior for dominance. It also said that animals express cannibalism and we as humans know that's not right. So just because animals do it doesnt mean that human should. Gay activist almost always use this to back their argument up.There is no such thing as homosexual orientation. We are meant to reproduce and multiply.Therefore homosexual animals do not exists.

Can someone please correct this. For some reason this dosent seem right to me.

[tpdncr4christ]

I just read an article saying that the whole homosexuality in animals things is a myth. It said that animals display homosexual behavior for dominance. It also said that animals express cannibalism and we as humans know that's not right. So just because animals do it doesnt mean that human should. Gay activist almost always use this to back their argument up.There is no such thing as homosexual orientation. We are meant to reproduce and multiply.Therefore homosexual animals do not exists.

Can someone please correct this. For some reason this dosent seem right to me.

what doesn't seem right to you? we can't keep defending you from these kind of ideas. you have to work it out in your own head what to do and how to react. it's your choice to believe them or believe what you want to believe. you know its crap. so what about it is crap?

[AJLove]

First I know that there are many things that we and animals do alike,and homosexuality is one of them. It's just that when they see something different from the "usual". Also no where in the article did they mention gay animal couples. Thus is homosexuality in only a behavior than why is it that you have life-long gay animals couples raising children. So homosexual animals DO EXISTS. People are just afraid to admit it. Their ignorant and afraid to be wrong. They see that since people are different they are unnatural and should be fixed. I say to those people "Stand upon the Hill of Judgement and see those who are mournful because they cannot love whom they want to love. For those are the people that suffer from your destruction." Let poeple be happy. dont force and anything upon them. It's natural. Natural to them and to God.

[u-dog]

First I know that there are many things that we and animals do alike,and homosexuality is one of them. It's just that when they see something different from the "usual". Also no where in the article did they mention gay animal couples. Thus is homosexuality in only a behavior than why is it that you have life-long gay animals couples raising children. So homosexual animals DO EXISTS. People are just afraid to admit it. Their ignorant and afraid to be wrong. They see that since people are different they are unnatural and should be fixed. I say to those people "Stand upon the Hill of Judgement and see those who are mournful because they cannot love whom they want to love. For those are the people that suffer from your destruction." Let poeple be happy. dont force and anything upon them. It's natural. Natural to them and to God.

There! You've answered your own question! The arguments about homosexuality being a way to express dominance is simply NOT TRUE. It is NOT an explanation adequate to the facts. Adolescent Dolphin males engage in same sex behaviors that bond them into mutual defense relationships that last a lifetime. Homosexual swans mate for life and sometimes raise young together. Homosexual Rams are exclusively interested in mounting other rams and not interested in Ewes. Dominance doesn't enter into it.

Their argument is circular. They start by saying "homosexuality is wrong because it is against nature" We respond that "homosexuality is observed many places in the created order OUTSIDE of human behavior and is therefore "Natural". They respond "Well... just because animals do it doesn't mean that human beings should"

Well shit! We never argued that we wanted to love people of our own sex because some of the animals do it. we argued that we want to love those of our own sex because it is NATURAL for US to do so. we KNOW that it is natural because of our own experience AND because we observe it in nature.

[tpdncr4christ]

First I know that there are many things that we and animals do alike,and homosexuality is one of them. It's just that when they see something different from the "usual". Also no where in the article did they mention gay animal couples. Thus is homosexuality in only a behavior than why is it that you have life-long gay animals couples raising children. So homosexual animals DO EXISTS. People are just afraid to admit it. Their ignorant and afraid to be wrong. They see that since people are different they are unnatural and should be fixed. I say to those people "Stand upon the Hill of Judgement and see those who are mournful because they cannot love whom they want to love. For those are the people that suffer from your destruction." Let poeple be happy. dont force and anything upon them. It's natural. Natural to them and to God.

See? You said it better than I would have. I'd o' just shrugged my shoulders and said, "So?"

[AJLove]

Thank you.

My boyfriend's best friend was trying to have sex with him and he wants to know should he continue to be friends with her?

[Zerbie]

Thank you.

My boyfriend's best friend was trying to have sex with him and he wants to know should he continue to be friends with her?

He asked you to ask a bunch of strangers who he should be friends with???
:confused:

Guys, learn now to take responsibility for your own choices and actions. That includes setting boundaries. If he is able to set clear boundaries with the girl who "tried to have sex" with him, and she does not violate those boundaries again, well maybe they can remain friends. It's up to the two of them to negotiate the personal boundaries. We don't get to tell you what to do.

[u-dog]

Thank you.

My boyfriend's best friend was trying to have sex with him and he wants to know should he continue to be friends with her?

AJ,

What Zerbie says is true. Your boyfriend needs to be clear with her what is OK and what is not ... what things he will allow to be a part of their relationship and what things he will NOT allow (that's what Zerbie means by "boundaries") If she can understand and respect those limits then of course they can be friends. If she cannot, then a healthy friendship would be difficult (impossible) since respect for one another is what true friendship is built upon.

I wonder if she thought she was being "helpful" to him. Maybe she thought that she could "cure" him by having sex with him. If that is the case then SOMEBODY needs to have a long talk with her about homosexuality ... and about sex in general cuz she is one confused puppy.

U-dog

[tpdncr4christ]

I agree with U-Dog and Zerbie completely. I cannot stress how frank he should be. You ought to let your friend know that he needs to be frank and honest, maybe even blunt with this girl. He cannot try and be nice and leave her thinking that something might change, that will just cause problems later. Establish clear UNBREAKABLE boundaries. That will give you a good relationship in any case.

[Zerbie]

He cannot try and be nice and leave her thinking that something might change, that will just cause problems later. Establish clear UNBREAKABLE boundaries. .

Oh yep! I have seen girls and women get the idea in their head that their gay best friend is going to change for them, and not let that thought go til the bitter end. Austin makes a really good point: your bf needs to make clear in no uncertain terms where his boundaries are and that they will NOT change for her so she needs to respect them.

[AJLove]

Recently someone mentioned that God told Noah to get two animals both male and female of every kind and put it one a the Arc. He didn't put two males or two females.

[paul]

Recently someone mentioned that God told Noah to get two animals both male and female of every kind and put it one a the Arc. He didn't put two males or two females.

Okeedokee. But read on. In chapter 7 of Genesis, God remembered glbt critters and changed it up a bit. God directed there should be 7 pairs of clean animals (you'll note the distinction "clean"). The pairs noted in chapter 6 are to be "male and female." Curiously some of the the 7 pairs in chapter 7 (v.2) are " a male and it's mate". Okay you Hebrew scholars, is any gender indicated in the original Hebrew in the word "mate?"

[mortensen_jon]

What can I say that hasn't been said?
I would just keep a low profile and not argue with your mom. You'll never change anyone's opinions in your congregation, and I wouldn't worry that. You need to keep your head above water and do well in school. Rather than tick off your family and have them reject you, go along to get along. After all, you're going to need them to support you for your college education. Having said that, you don't need to pretend to be straight; just keep a low profile.

You wrote:

My mom and I always get into arguments about how if I pray and it'll go away.

I'm here to tell you that if you could pray "gay" away, most of us here would be str8. Instead, we've come to learn that our sexuality is a wonderful gift from God. And this gift is what helps me as a servant in God's church. I'm a percussionist and keyboardist who happens to be Director of Music at a large UCC church.

[scott snedeker]

You need to keep your head above water and do well in school. Rather than tick off your family and have them reject you, go along to get along. After all, you're going to need them to support you for your college education. Having said that, you don't need to pretend to be straight; just keep a low profile.

You wrote:

My mom and I always get into arguments about how if I pray and it'll go away.



Creation of a spiritual sanctuary during this time is important. Keep talking to us. Keep your focus on your entitlement to joy. Read through my response to JC Love's post. You are going to make it. and even though It's tough right now, but you are making your emotional future more healthy by facing this now. keep it up! You are preventing damage to you self esteem by being honest with yourself and with JC. Picture yourself in God's loving embrace. Picture him whispering in your ear. "I created you gay so that you can love another of my children who I created gay also, who needs you. I have much joy and love planned for you because you are my precious shining boy."

[AJLove]

For some reason I feel like I'm changing. I'm still in love with my boyfriend and I'll never leave him. Today my pastor at my church preached against homosexuality but I didnt feel as uncomfortable as I thought I would. He said things I've head and read about already. Then my mother said the pastor was talking about you today. The pastor said that good can help you leave the perverted lifestyle. And take that nasty taste away form you.. Whether your a drug addict a alcoholic a homosexual or lesbian God can change you. I feel like God is trying to reach me in a way. Telling me that I dont need to change. In a way I am attracted to women. But I see them as bing beautiful diamond. They are a marvelous creation and a gift to all.No matter what shape or size I still find every women beautiful. I'm only attracted to certain women though.

[AJLove]

But there are still sometimes when I feel the other way around.

[Zerbie]

I am sorry that you have to hear people suggesting to you that you should change how you feel and who you are, especially if one of those persons is your mother. :( I also believe she is saying so out of misguided well-intentions. You are always going to be who you are, whether you suppress it , deny it, or accept it - you will always be you, AJ. Whether that is gay, straight, or something in between, you will always be you. :love: And that is good. :) As U-dog says, God knew what he was doing when he made you.

It's okay to not always be sure of yourself. Feelings are amorphous things and attraction, admiration, infatuation, all of these are normal feelings that are difficult to pin down and categorize. You can find women beautiful like diamonds, yet not be romantically or sexually aroused by them. Or, perhaps once in a rare while, you may be. Same is true with men. Whether you are attracted to men, to women, or it sort of shifts around on you as you discover more and more what feelings lie within you, it is ALL okay.
:love::pray:

[scott snedeker]

For some reason I feel like I'm changing. I'm still in love with my boyfriend and I'll never leave him. Today my pastor at my church preached against homosexuality but I didnt feel as uncomfortable as I thought I would. He said things I've head and read about already. Then my mother said the pastor was talking about you today. The pastor said that good can help you leave the perverted lifestyle. And take that nasty taste away form you.. Whether your a drug addict a alcoholic a homosexual or lesbian God can change you. I feel like God is trying to reach me in a way. Telling me that I dont need to change. In a way I am attracted to women. But I see them as bing beautiful diamond. They are a marvelous creation and a gift to all.No matter what shape or size I still find every women beautiful. I'm only attracted to certain women though.
This is a sign that you are growing out of the fear that was troubling you. The fear that your attraction to men, a core part of your basic nature is hated by God. It is not no matter how many pastors or parents tell you this. It doesn't upset you because you are developing confidence that you every part of you is good. Your capacity to love is good and wonderful. You are passionately attracted to men and can appreciate feminine beauty. Gee! Why is that so familiar!:lol:

But there are still sometimes when I feel the other way around.
And we all do from time to time. Don't beat yourself up when you do. We all have fears that are not real, like Heights, or spiders or needles but that is part of being human. Acknowlege it then move on to living in the joy of the moment. :)

You are winnig against your fear. And because you are overcoming it now, You will be confident and open as an adult....and the envy of many who did not overcome this when they were young!:cool:

[AJLove]

I recently talked to one of my associates who is also a Christian but not gay. We were discussing the topic of homosexuality. In the conversation she said things like if God wanted a man and a man to be together than he would have made it that way. God made man and women for other. Is says in the bible that it's wrong that's why he destroyed Sodom. And last but not least GOD DOESN'T LIKE GAY PEOPLE!This is the first time a young person said this type of stuff to me. She also asked me why was I this way and how can you be a Christian and gay. She also mention a point in her life where she thought she was bisexual. Then she said God healed her,and said to me that it doenst matter how many years you prayed God will change and heal you jut have faith.

Tell me what you think of this.

[scott snedeker]

If you are gay (and you seem pretty sure about that) then trust that he is busy making you the best GAY man that you can be. And as our Pagan friend, Scotty, would remind us... he made you Gay to be a blessing in the life of some OTHER gay man that he has already picked out for you!

You are getting better all the time! Each time you hear the false message that "God doesn't like you because he made you gay," your head shakes with a confused, "who is speaking this crap?"

Not God! He's not a petty torturor! But this twit that tells you this moronic paradox certainly seems to be!

You are capable of independent thought. If something that is said seems to be a hurtful moronic paradox to you, then......it probably is! Duh! You are gifted with judgement and intelligence. Why be gifted with these strengths? Because you are supposed to use them and grow, not stifel yourself by letting your life be ruled by what you know to be hurtful moronic paradoxes created by ignorant fearful twits!

You are becoming a man. Teens are made to rebel and establish their own identity. You are right where you are supposed to be. You are supposed to disturb your mother with your independence. This is something that always was and always will be part of the normal identity development of humans. Your Maturation is unstoppable because you are being honest with yourself. Your mother will adjust in time. But that is her adjustment.

You see, to her, you were ten years old just last year! I know because that is how the last five years seems to me!:eek: So She's probably not ready for you to be sexually functional......let alone gay! And you can't go back to being prepubescent just to ease her adjustment!

Trust that you are created by God to experience joy. And that he has given you gifts to use to attain that joy. God is a creator, not a destoyer.
As U-dog reminded, I am a pagan which means that I believe that I am part of nature created to live in symbiosis with all living things. It also means that my positive feelings are God's instructions. If I act counter to my nature as defined by my feelings then I am deviating from God's plan for me. I can tell when I do this because I feel sad, lonely, fearful etc.

His plan is for me to love. The best love is unconditional love. Christ's message is Unconditional Love. For many people Christ is unconditional love. These are true christians.:love: Btw loving unconditionally is also part of being a true pagan too! :cool:

Others say they speak for Christ, and tell you that His love is conditional. That He loves you only if you do this, or that or be this, or not that. These are Christians with a capital "C" The capital is to remind you how superior and favored they are because they met the conditions and have pandered to Christ.... Excuse me for a moment.....BARF!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

Continue to be true to your soul. You have come so far!!!! You are destined to live the joy of loving true to your nature. And when you do, God will smile with sharing your joy created from his gift.:love:

[Erik]

I recently talked to one of my associates who is also a Christian but not gay. We were discussing the topic of homosexuality. In the conversation she said things like if God wanted a man and a man to be together than he would have made it that way. God made man and women for other. Is says in the bible that it's wrong that's why he destroyed Sodom. And last but not least GOD DOESN'T LIKE GAY PEOPLE!This is the first time a young person said this type of stuff to me. She also asked me why was I this way and how can you be a Christian and gay. She also mention a point in her life where she thought she was bisexual. Then she said God healed her,and said to me that it doenst matter how many years you prayed God will change and heal you jut have faith.

Tell me what you think of this.

As I read the story of Adam and Eve, nowhere do I find that God ever said anything about what an appropriate mate for Adam looked like. In fact, in the second telling of the creation story (Genesis 2:18-24) it seems to be a hit and miss attempt on God's part to find a mate for Adam. God said "It is not good for man to be alone; I will make a fitting helper for him" (Gen. 2:18). God then proceeds to make all sorts of things and brings them, one by one, to Adam to see if he finds them acceptable. Adam doesn't really like what he sees so God puts Adam to sleep and makes Eve. The interesting phrase is Gen. 2:23 where it says "Then the man said, "This is bone of my bones....". Notice that the Bible says "Then the MAN said.." The MAN, not God, said that Eve would be Adam's mate. I believe God presented Adam with several options and allowed him to choose his own partner and I believe that God does the same for us today. God wants us to be happy with a life partner of our choosing, whoever that may be; gay, lesbian, straight, bi, or trans.

A couple funny things about the story of Sodom that some people like to quote; In Gen. 2:8 Lot offers his daughters to the townspeople so they may do as they please with the daughters. Lot offered his daughters up to be gang raped and somehow homosexuality is the sin that this tale is supposed to warn us about? I don't think so. Many Biblical scholars believe that this is really a tale about the hospitality code that was common in the society of the time. It's believed by some that God was punishing the people of Sodom for being selfish and inhospitable, not for being gay. Another thing is that a lot of people conveniently stop reading at about Genesis 19:29. If they keep reading they will discover that Lot settles in the hill country where his two daughters get him drunk, have sex with him, and each bares a son. One was called Moab who became the father of the Moabites. Later in the bible we find that Ruth was a Moabite (Ruth 1:4) and that Ruth had Obed, who was the father of Jesse, who was the father of David; the David who would become king and from whom it is said that Jesus descended. So, as I read the Bible...without drunken father/daughter incest there would be no Jesus. That doesn't make the story of Jesus any less valid nor does it make Christianity or Judaism any less valid by any means, but it is an interesting nugget of information that makes contemplating one's faith a little more interesting.

A common verse I've heard used to "prove" that homo- (or in my case bi-) sexuality is a sin is Leviticus 18:22..."You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." (New American Standard Bible). They will tell you it is an "ABOMINATION" and that's all they need to hear; you're going to hell. Funny thing about that one, too. Just a couple books in the Bible later we find this in Deuteronomy 22:5..."A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." Now, as I read this one it seems to say that any woman wearing the clothing of a man (pants) is also an abomination, putting her on the same path to eternal damnation as all of us here. Silly, ain't it?

As a parent all I really want for my kids is for them to be happy. They don't have to be wealthy, they don't have to be famous, and they DEFINITELY don't have to be straight. All I want for them is health and happiness. I believe that's all God wants for us, too. Be yourself and be happy and I think you'll make God happy.

[astarte_literati]

Of every book and gospel in the Bible, only the Ten Commandments claim to have come DIRECTLY from the Lord: the rest are God's word interpreted by man: man is inherantly fallible: thus, so is the Bible. Leviticus especially so, I think. Bear this in mind: next to "mankind shall not lieth with mankind", the Bible also says that eating shrip is an abomination and selling your daughter into slavery is groovy with the Lord. Point this out to your ma the next time she climbs on her soapbox. Tell her that Biblical values should be practiced by Christians like law should be practiced by cops: adhering to the spirit, not the letter, of the doctrine.

[paul]

As I read the story of Adam and Eve, nowhere do I find that God ever said anything about what an appropriate mate for Adam looked like. In fact, in the second telling of the creation story (Genesis 2:18-24) it seems to be a hit and miss attempt on God's part to find a mate for Adam. God said "It is not good for man to be alone; I will make a fitting helper for him" (Gen. 2:18). God then proceeds to make all sorts of things and brings them, one by one, to Adam to see if he finds them acceptable. Adam doesn't really like what he sees so God puts Adam to sleep and makes Eve. The interesting phrase is Gen. 2:23 where it says "Then the man said, "This is bone of my bones....". Notice that the Bible says "Then the MAN said.." The MAN, not God, said that Eve would be Adam's mate. I believe God presented Adam with several options and allowed him to choose his own partner and I believe that God does the same for us today. God wants us to be happy with a life partner of our choosing, whoever that may be; gay, lesbian, straight, bi, or trans.
.

Hey Erik,

That's a great take on the story (especially coming from an "agnostic" :D). You're going to be well liked around here.
p

[AJLove]

What is the deal with people saying gays will end the human race? This cant be true can it?

[tpdncr4christ]

What is the deal with people saying gays will end the human race? This cant be true can it?

They think that cause we can't get pregnant the world will end because there will be no more babies. But listen honey, there's enough of the straight people popping them out that we won't have that problem to soon. I think God might even make gays and lesbians because He needs more parents for all the kids the hetero's are making. I mean, if not for us, then who would adopt all the poor children out there? :love:

[AJLove]

Recently I heard people discussing how "anal and vaginal sex are not natural. Anal sex is tearing up the tissue and makes your bleed. And two vagina's just don't work. The proper way to have sex is with a penis and a vagina, because the vagina has natural lubricants to help for easier sex.The anus is for outwards transport only. YOU dont see animals doing it(lol riiight:rolleyes:)"

[scott snedeker]

Recently I heard people discussing how "anal and vaginal sex are not natural. Anal sex is tearing up the tissue and makes your bleed. And two vagina's just don't work. The proper way to have sex is with a penis and a vagina, because the vagina has natural lubricants to help for easier sex.The anus is for outwards transport only. YOU dont see animals doing it(lol riiight:rolleyes:)"

Not true! my goats do it every day!

And by the way, there are incredibly sensitive erogeous areas in the rectum around and over the prostate! for me having an orgasm without stimulting these areas is only half as intense! There is no doubt. These buttons were put there to be pushed!

[Erik]

I wonder how many of the folks who are so upset about us Sodomites are incorporating cunnilingus or fellatio into their heterosexual relationships.

[tpdncr4christ]

I always ask them if they need to kiss when they have sex. cause in reality, swapping spit has NOTHING to do with making a baby. its just fun.

[Erik]

I always ask them if they need to kiss when they have sex. cause in reality, swapping spit has NOTHING to do with making a baby. its just fun.

That's a GREAT observation. I'm gonna have to remember that one.

[AJLove]

I'm going through a mental breakdown right now and I'm holding it all in. People are telling me what I am is a sin,then some part of me is telling me it's not while others say it is. Some voices say I should leave my boyfriend while others say no. I'm being pulled back and forth. This is really alot to bare. I just want to be happy and the guy I found is everything I ever wanted but somethings are trying to pull me away from him. But I do love him,so much :'(. People call people like me(us) freaks, abnormal, unnatural,immoral,disgusting,great sinners,pedophiles,innate,an abomination,demons and a whole lot more. I want to be with the person I love and that person is JC. I cant help that I'm attracted to guys. Why cant people understand that. They say that "a man and a women find love in one another and have natural sex and have a child then raise a family. It's as simple as that" And any other way is abnormal and wrong.I dont want to be a sinner I dont was to go to Hell. But people keep telling me that is what I am. I have no role models to help me no one to talk to besides JC,and even he cant help me with everything. I cant go to gay youth groups or and gay enviorment. I have seen my boyfriend in 2 months because I can rarely go out and his mother is really arrogant.I cant even watch GLBT networks on TV ,my mother blocked them all. I'm tired of feeling so confused. The people at my church are very kind and wonderful but they are mostly anti-gay. I'm only sixteen and I rarely have any freedom. I dont want to live a lifestyle that I force upon myself. Since I'm on holiday break I'm out of school. And that was the only place where I felt happy to just be me. Even I'm starting to notice things I've never noticed before. Like how they only potray mostly heterosexuality on television and even cartoons( and those little things bother me) But at the same time the GLBT community is becoming more networked in television. It seems I'm starting to see why some straight people think that what we are is wrong and that there is no ther alternative lifestyle.Can someone help me.:'(:'(:pray:please

[AJLove]

And the thing is if I didnt love JC soo much I would have gave in.

[Zerbie]

AJ darlin',

I am fighting with my computer - just spent a long time on a carefully considered response to you, but it evaporated. I am wiped out, so am going with a shorter, less thoughtful response:

Hang In There!! :love::love:
Take your time. Take things slowly.
Don't do anything you aren't absolutely certain you are ready for, and absolutely okay with doing. At this time, the best thing you can do is wait.

It is okay not to have answers. It is okay to be unsure. Do not be unduly swayed by other peoples' certainty. Take the time to dive deep inside your heart, pray and be moved by the spirit, and if you do these things, in time you will know who you are and where you stand.

You are okay, AJ. :love: You are living in a society full of anger, selfishness, judgment, jumping at shadows, and viciously homophobic. That, quite rightly, makes you uncomfortable. Busy yourself with being a loving, caring, honorable, honest man full of integrity, kindness, and compassion. In time, you will come to know what your own beliefs are. Act in accordance with those, and your inner heart will be at peace.

You are young and caught in the middle of quite a "culture war." That is not your fault. Bide your time and wait until you are grown up and on your own. It is actually not that long until you are! Be safe - physically and mentally. And know that it is okay to be uncertain about the important things. That is when we learn. ;)

Hang in there AJ. :love::love: You are absolutely without question loved by God - unconditionally. That means even if you pick the 'wrong answer' about the gay thing, God's love is the same endless gentle caring affection that it would be if you picked the 'right' one. :dove:

Ah - I recall I had a question for you in my thoughtful post that vanished. I had asked you:

AJ - what do YOU believe to be the most essential part of Jesus' message?

[tpdncr4christ]

Let me tell you what I see in you kid:

You tend to have arguments with yourself. You fight for both sides, and you long for someone to tell you what is really right. You feel like everything you are doing is wrong, alone. It's almost as if the more you reach out for help, the more you feel truly alone, that's why you hang on to your boyfriend so much. You are sixteen, and a beautiful young man just beginning to figure it all out. You are afraid that you will turn into what people say you are, and you fear that more than anything. You are in NO way a sinner, or a sodomite, you are not filthy or disgusting, you are nothing close to an abomination, you are a CHILD OF GOD and He loves you. He freaking loves you, so much that it cannot be put into words how much He loves you. God made every inch of you, he made your hair and your hands, he made your heart and your eyes. God put you together out of things far less important, and made you amazing. He gave you your flaws, He gave you your skills, your creativity, your will to survive, your personality. He made you, you have been touched by God. Seriously, His finger prints are all over your life. He made you perfectly flawed, and is watching you lovingly now. Screw what other people think, they are nothing compared to Him. Cause in the end, His vote counts, and He loves you.

It's hard, yes, by hell it is hard, but He knows your up to it. And if you look closely, you'll see Him helping you all the way. If God really hated you, you wouldn't be here now. You are perfectly flawed, just the way God made you, and nothing will change that. All this filth that people are throwing at you, all of this shit, wipe it off and stand up proud, and be who God made you to be. To all of your ability be God's light in the world and you'll find something miraculous happen. The shit they toss at you, it starts to just fall off. You stand there and they can't touch you, because you are a child of God, you are freaking loved. So much that you can't even know how much you are loved. And when you think you won't be able to take it, look up, and smile, because you know that God loves you. Nothing they do can change that. Nothing.

[tpdncr4christ]

ls7ila3srzI

[scott snedeker]

:love::'( Yes! :'(:love:

[I]AJ -- Print Austin's post out on paper and put it in your wallet. take it out and read it about 20 times every day. commit it to memory. It is the truest thing that anyone has ever said to you or may EVER say to you. I]



Absolutely follow U-dog's and Austin's wise advice!



I think part of your problem is that you are discussing being gay with the wrong people. If people were saying these same things to me I would tell them to piss off! :mad:

Or If I were in a polite mood, I would tell them that what they just said was very offensive and would they take care not to express these views in my presence. :cool:

But Aj, If you bring up being gay to people who are homophobic, they are going to come back at you with fear, hatred, and dehumanizing sentiment.


Choose carefully who becomes part of your world. If someone you know brings up "God says you are sinful" answer back: "That was incredibly rude and hurtful for you to say! Don't ever say that to me! That's as socially unacceptable as picking your nose at CHRISTMAS DINNER!"

This is a way of establishing personal boundaries so that people will not feel enitled to violate them, because nothing, not even the Bible gives them that right. All humans have predatory instincts. If you activate them by discussing being gay to someone who fears and hates gays then they will act on these instincts and attack. If you make it uncomfortable for them, they will seek easier prey. I'll let you in on a secret........predators are cowards!

Being prey is not what God plans for you. Choose carefully who you discuss this with. You are not yet a gay activist with emotional rhinoceros hide. You are in the process of sexual identity development.


Because you are growing and emerging as a gay man, It is most important to cultivate a new FAMILY Seek out new friends who are gay-friendly. This a new "family" who accept you unconditionally are your allies, who have been where you are. You need a refuge, a sanctuary.

Your world is your perception of the reality around you. Associate with those who unconditionally accept you and your world becomes safer, affirming, and loving.

[AJLove]

Thanks once again and I did print and I'm going to give a copy to JC.

Recently my mom said that she thinks I'm hiding something (which I am). Then she said to me "I thought you promised you would be that way anymore."I have a feeling that I'm going to have to tell hr sooner than I want to. And I need someone with knowledge who can type up something explaining o her about society,the bible stereotypes,ex-gays,ex-ex-gays,and all that stuff. I plan her giving her all the research that I have found.

[scott snedeker]

AJ,

I think you need allies. Some of these might be your guidence coucellor at school (If he or she is not a right-wing nut) or even the local equivalent of Childern and family services who intervene in domestic child abuse. Your mother's actions are driven by fear and ignorance. Fear of local government authority intervention might curb her persecution.

These organizations also provide counselling at no charge to those in need. It might be advantageous to you to have a professional advocate to help you endure the blows to your developing identity. Get your team ready beforeany direct interaction with your mother. Look in the telephone book under local government agencies to start finding these resources.

Others on this forum will be able to direct you to other resoures too.

[AJLove]

Today I found out that my mother is bisexual,and my godmother and her used to go together. There were together for 7 years. But my mom left her she didn't want me to turn out like them. Now I understand she's hurting inside. That's why she says the things she says to me. That why she doesn't want me to be this way. Surprised I am to :) But a big load has been lifted off me. I told my godmother about me today and she accepted and offered her ( I just found out she's a lesbian). Today was full of surprises,lol. I thought that they were but then I said to myself no it cant be.

[scott snedeker]

Today I found out that my mother is bisexual,and my godmother and her used to go together. There were together for 7 years. But my mom left her she didn't want me to turn out like them. Now I understand she's hurting inside. That's why she says the things she says to me. That why she doesn't want me to be this way. Surprised I am too! :) But a big load has been lifted off me. I told my godmother about me today and she accepted and offered her ( I just found out she's a lesbian). Today was full of surprises,lol. I thought that they were but then I said to myself no it cant be.

I can't resist!

Who would have thought that as an ally that you have a......... Faerie Godmother! :lol:

A testimony to my observation that life is beautiful, funny and good.

It does seem to be a true sign of hope for you! Someone you can talk to. We are here for you too, AJ! We are on your side! You are getting stronger every day! Gay Teens like you sometimes have to grow up fast. You are following in a time-tested tradition of our tribe!

I call my self a faerie. Faerie to me means beautiful and courageous enough to express on the outside, the shining being on the inside.

You are going to make it! once again you have grown another inch this day!:applause::applause::applause::cookie: :love: :love:

[AJLove]

I told my mom about JC a everything I could I even gave her the papers that she's going to read. We agreed that I will talk to the pastor if she goes with me to PFLAG. She also said she's an ex-bisexual now straight and that God changed her. I told her God has a plan for everybody and their not the same.Did I say the right thing? I mean how do I convince her that what I am is natural,with her being an ex-gay?Is it possible?

[Zerbie]

I told my mom about JC a everything I could I even gave her the papers that she's going to read. We agreed that I will talk to the pastor if she goes with me to PFLAG. She also said she's an ex-bisexual now straight and that God changed her. I told her God has a plan for everybody and their not the same.Did I say the right thing? I mean how do I convince her that what I am is natural,with her being an ex-gay?Is it possible?

This is a tough position with you being a minor and under your mom's authority for the next couple years, but imo you handled that BEAUTIFULLY.

It is true, not everyone will walk the same, or even similar, paths. That does not make the different paths wrong. Some people experience their sexuality as changing with time. Thousands of others do not.

The fact that your mom changed does not obligate YOU to. You are not your mom. You are AJ. Do your best to keep loving her through this time - some day when you're on your own I hope she will come to respect that you are different from her and are going to have your own experiences, not the same ones she has had.

I wish you and your family the best. May you remain close despite your struggles.
:pray:

[AJLove]

Its been a day after I came out to my mother and I feel extremely. I feel so sick, I feel like I did something wrong. I called a few support groups yesterday and I plan to talk to the pastor tomorrow. We cried together together and I gave her a hug. I told her how I really felt and she said crying,"But it isnt right" .I said maybe not for you.I just hope it gets better from here.Please keep us in your prayers:pray::love::'(.

[Erik]

Its been a day after I came out to my mother and I feel extremely. I feel so sick, I feel like I did something wrong. I called a few support groups yesterday and I plan to talk to the pastor tomorrow. We cried together together and I gave her a hug. I told her how I really felt and she said crying,"But it isnt right" .I said maybe not for you.I just hope it gets better from here.Please keep us in your prayers:pray::love::'(.

Don't know if this will help or not, but yesterday I came across a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa theologiae while looking through a book called "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the fourteenth Century" by John Boswell. I haven't bought the book yet but plan to. Anyway, the quote from St. Thomas Aquinas....

"Because of the diverse conditions of humans, it happens that some acts are virtuous to some people, as appropriate and suitable to them, while the same acts are immoral for others, as inappropriate to them."

[Daniel]

Don't know if this will help or not, but yesterday I came across a quote from St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa theologiae while looking through a book called "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the fourteenth Century" by John Boswell. I haven't bought the book yet but plan to. Anyway, the quote from St. Thomas Aquinas....

"Because of the diverse conditions of humans, it happens that some acts are virtuous to some people, as appropriate and suitable to them, while the same acts are immoral for others, as inappropriate to them."

And well worth reading. Yes. It can be a bit heady for those not used to scholarly writing, but I encourage you to get a copy. abebooks.com is a good resource.

This one book helped me more than anything when I was coming out. It not only gave me some historical perspective, it also made me realize that the struggle to come out, to be accepted, is one that has been faced by untold millions over the centuries.

AJ - You haven't done anything wrong, but I know the feeling you are talking about. It comes because we see ourself through another person's eyes, and not our own.

One word of caution: beware of shame and being shamed. You have NOTHING to be ashamed of. But it takes some time to realize this, to feel it. Healthy relationships (romantic or not) can be a huge help.

[Zerbie]

:love::love::love:

AJ - You have been honest, brave, sincere, and wonderful. You are handling this just BEAUTIFULLY.

You haven't done anything wrong. I know the kind of feeling you're talking about. You are taking a viewpoint different from the rest of your family, and it's one they feel strongly about, so it's very scary to buck the tradition and hold to your own, different, understanding. All the more dicey because it isn't just a theoretical argument, it is a discussion about *you.* You are handling it beautifully. I hope your mom realizes what a dear young man she has raised. :love: Obviously she's done something right to have produced you. ;) :)

[AJLove]

I just had a talk with my mother today And we discussed our usual topic homosexuality. She said that "I think it's wrong I'm not going to change my views." I said to her why do you think that.....she said "I just do".Than she asked me "why do you think it's right?"I said "my answer is on the papers that I gave you, my answer is in the around you, my answer is in the trees, in the ocean, and on the African Safari,just look around you and pay attention. If you were God with al his power what would you do about gay people"
She said"I dont know"
I said"Do you think good would be happy to see his children happy with trying to hide who they are and how he made them. I think he would be satisfied if he saw that his children were happy as long as they followed his commandments.You also have to understand that the Bible is very old and outdated book. The only think that will never expire in the Bible is the quotes that God and Jesus said directly.And everything else is written by man. You also have to remember that man gains more knowledge of things over time, for example the dictionary changes with time,but the bible doesn't. No one is willing to update the bible and we all know the bible has written in it cultures and other things that were practiced a long time ago but is illegal or wrong today, Like stoning,slavery,etc. Say we did update the bible that we would put the knowledge of everything that we know today into it and then have cultures years later follow our outdated methods and teachings."

[AJLove]

Thank You

I am in love and I know I am. But my mom still thinks I still need to change. She said she would accept me being gay but she;ll accept. That doesn't make life easier at all. She even she might not go to the PFLAG group because she thinks I'm trying to change her view about it,when I'm only trying to help her have a better understanding. Oh before I forget how come the laws of Leviticus arent valid? Also can someone tell be why Paul said those things about"natural uses". And why isnt gay animals in the bible?
I also talked to my uncle today he said it's too soon for be to decide whether I'm gay or not. I still have my life ahead of me,and I dont know how hard it's going to be out there in the real world. Is he right is it really that hard?

[AJLove]

Also with th gay animals situation people say that just because it's natural doesnt make it right. They use examples such as pedophilia, cannibalism,etc. Why is that so?

[Zerbie]

Also with th gay animals situation people say that just because it's natural doesnt make it right. They use examples such as pedophilia, cannibalism,etc. Why is that so?

Yet ironically, these are the same folk who cry "it's unnatural" and use that cry against you. If you counter that by citing natural examples from the animal world, they back off and say what you wrote above. Nice way of arguing, huh?

AJ - you cannot help *being.* You being AJ can neither be "right" nor "wrong." You just are. As regards behavior, since you must live with the consequences of your actions, assess things to the best of your ability and make behavioral choices that adhere to your value system. U-dog correctly points out that either choice you make regarding coming out has its difficulties. Coming out as gay now will have some pain attached to it. But so will NOT coming out. He knows as well as anyone that it hurts to play the part of Straight Guy when that's not what you are. So AJ, understand that neither choice is going to be an easy one. Seems to me you are being brave and taking the road that, on the surface, looks like the harder rockier road by being so (wonderfully!) open with your family. In the long run though, this choice does preserve your integrity and your authenticity, and grow your courage in tremendous ways. You will develop a strong sense of self over the years by remaining true to who you are. I see this, because I have friends who came out at about 16 or so, and that's how wonderful and courageous they are. :love:

With the understanding that what you're doing is incredibly hard, you have my prayers and best wishes for a loving family life, a strong sense of self, and a joyfilled future. :pray: You are definitely earning them.

You are really brave AJ. You have my admiration.

:love::love::love:

[AJLove]

Thanks guys your right I have come a little ways,but I still have much to learn.

Yesterday when I talked to my uncle asked why is AJ gay? Not what is gay? But what makes AJ gay? I told because I'm not attracted to girls in that matter. But he that's not what I mean. I don't understand his question.

[Zerbie]

Flip the question around on him. Ask him what made him straight.

[AJLove]

I still dont get the question? He was also saying that he doesnt beileve that anybody is born gay it has to do with someone pushing them to be that way or their enviorment. "I dont care what anybody says YOU ARE NOT BORN GAY."

[Zerbie]

I still dont get the question? He was also saying that he doesnt beileve that anybody is born gay it has to do with someone pushing them to be that way or their enviorment. "I dont care what anybody says YOU ARE NOT BORN GAY."

You're not 'getting' the question because the question is nonsensical. It cannot be answered. Asking him how he got to be straight is likewise a nonsensical question, and a way of acknowledging that it's unanswerable because, frankly, it's ridiculous.

U-dog is right about this: the person making that statement has no interest in facts, neither in science, psychology, nor anyone's personal first-hand experience, including yours. Unfortunately, it suggests his desire to view gays as deliberately deciding to become 'less than' is more important than knowing the real you. Can't say I'm happy to hear that.

Hang in there AJ. You are who you are, and that is a beautiful young man.
:pray::love:

[AJLove]

Yesterday while I was playing the video game with my little bro,all of of sudden this strange unpleasant feeling came over me where I lost my breath. It was like voices in my head telling me that I should not be with JC it's wrong while others said something different. Then another feeling came where I felt that I needed to kill myself in order to stop this confusion. But I was strong enough to prevent that from happening. Then I got on my knees and began crying because my mind was race so fast and the pain was almost unbearable. My mother and JC were both scared for my life. After a while the thoughts and pain went down and then came back up. But this time I was strong enough to prevent the thoughts from controlling me. JC and I prayed that things would get better and eventually they began too. I dont know what this feeling was I know it wasnt God because he dosent force anything upon anyone. And he doesnt tell you to kill your self. Today I told him to get out and stop controlling me. You are nothing you are weak. And JC and I will never leave one another. Right now I feel ok but a little weird after all that happened. Please pray for me and JC.:'(:pray::love:

[Zerbie]

Yesterday while I was playing the video game with my little bro,all of of sudden this strange unpleasant feeling came over me where I lost my breath. It was like voices in my head telling me that I should not be with JC it's wrong while others said something different. Then another feeling came where I felt that I needed to kill myself in order to stop this confusion. But I was strong enough to prevent that from happening. Then I got on my knees and began crying because my mind was race so fast and the pain was almost unbearable. My mother and JC were both scared for my life. After a while the thoughts and pain went down and then came back up. But this time I was strong enough to prevent the thoughts from controlling me. JC and I prayed that things would get better and eventually they began too. I dont know what this feeling was I know it wasnt God because he dosent force anything upon anyone. And he doesnt tell you to kill your self. Today I told him to get out and stop controlling me. You are nothing you are weak. And JC and I will never leave one another. Right now I feel ok but a little weird after all that happened. Please pray for me and JC.:'(:pray::love:

This actually sounds something like a panic attack. Panic attacks are TERRIFYING and disorienting, but by themselves they are not dangerous, as I understand it. Double-check me, though.

I would suggest checking out your health and being evaluated - if it was a panic or anxiety attack, these kinds of attacks can be helped. You don't have to suffer them. And if it was something else, well, you would want to know that so it can be taken care of.

Whatever you do, always protect yourself and your health and those around you.

In case this is "simple" anxiety, make a list of things that soothe you that you can grab or turn to if there is a next time. Whatever makes you feel soothed, peaceful, and safe: prayer, music, being in a favorite peaceful place, writing poetry - whatever it is, it should be something safe that makes you feel at peace.

Please take care of yourself AJ. :pray:
Try doing a search on panic attacks and see if they describe your experience yesterday. In any case, a trip to your doc and a psychologist could help put your mind at ease and nip any possible problems, such as anxiety, in the bud before the suffering continues.
:pray::pray:

[AJLove]

I fell so much better now that I know what is was. Al II know is that I'm going through alot and I'm holding alot of emotions in. And that it was the first time it ever happened.I just know that it could happen again and that I felt alot of pain both mental and physical. I thought I was going crazy. But once again thank you soooo much. But I dont know which one it is. I kind of felt like I was literally loosing my mind and I was dieing and I had some suicidal thoughts. A shower and some soothing music helped. It also helped me that I talked to JC.

[scott snedeker]

I fell so much better now that I know what is was. Al II know is that I'm going through alot and I'm holding alot of emotions in. And that it was the first time it ever happened.I just know that it could happen again and that I felt alot of pain both mental and physical. I thought I was going crazy. But once again thank you soooo much. But I dont know which one it is. I kind of felt like I was literally loosing my mind and I was dieing and I had some suicidal thoughts.


Put your mind in a safe place. Imagine a playground or a teacher that you like and trust. focus on that place or person and imagine them in your mind's eye. Cultivate these sanctuaries of the mind. with soothing music or movies that put you at ease, like the Lord of the Rings or Star Trek Or The Princess Bride Or Harry Potter. Keep these handy for a safe place for your mind to rest from the constant pressure. Take naps. Read a book.

The panic attack is a symptom of emotional fatigue from the pressure of constantly defending yourself. Rest from this pressure is essential.

I get them too, AJ. It's not a sign of weakness. It's your brain telling you that you need rest.

[AJLove]

I'm beginning to understand. I am holding a lot of emotions in,but I just ignore them. I never knew that this is what stress can do to you. I rarely see JC My grades in school are not doing so good. I'm still trying to come out,my church and how people are telling I can change.. I could go on.Like I said this is all new to me.

[scott snedeker]

Be6jlCuMvVQ

This guy is fantastic!

[Zerbie]

The panic attack is a symptom of emotional fatigue from the pressure of constantly defending yourself. Rest from this pressure is essential.

I get them too, AJ. .

:( Scotty, this happens to you too?? I'm sorry. :(
:love::love::love:

Guys, you are wonderful just as you are. Don't take the garbage that others throw your way, inside. You are dear sweet wonderful awesome smart talented super-duper terrific guys! :agree:;)

[AJLove]

Thanks.

I talked to the pastor he said things that I knew he was going to say. But he was very kin and humble. He said God can take those feeling away. You can leave this lifestyle. Do you think your pleasing God or yourself by being gay.The he told me the story of why Sodom was destroyed and about Abraham and his wife and daughters. Then I had to tell him and my mother that I would change even though I knew I could not and had no need too. Right now JC and I are not doing good at all. My mother and my uncle went over his house to talk to him. Jc is almost 18. He has no job and is not in school but is now working on it. I'm 16. My mother said he would press charges on him if he found out that I was still talking to him. SO it might be more that a year maybe less before I se him again. We're still together. I also am struggling in school and they thing JC is the reason for that. So that's another reason why they dont want us to be together.Please pray for us.:love::'(:pray: The only reason why I said I would change is too please my mother. She seems happy already. My life is not good at all right now. i'm back to the pretending thing.

[Zerbie]

:(:'(:(:'(

Oh AJ, how awful. I am so sorry. I wish I knew what to say.

Threats? God, how awful!

AJ - if you really are gay, that is something that you ARE, not a role you are playing, and it is 'morally' neutral, just like being straight is 'morally' neutral. Your inner being is not going to suddenly become the inner being of someone else. Nor should it -- ever! You are well and good, you are who you are meant to be, exactly as you are! Right now!

God knows who you are - he made you. He desired you. It was God who used your parents as conduits to bring you to the world. So we know He wants you to be exactly who you have always been. He made that soul. :dove: Do whatever you must to protect it and keep safe. Someday, I pray soon, you will not have to hide to protect yourself, and can live openly and share honestly with those in your life, even your mom - she will get through this, as will you. Someday soon. For now, take gentle care of AJ.

Know you have many who love you. The One who really counts has always loved you and that fact cannot change. You do not have to change. Even if you might have to play along for now. Be safe. :pray:

In case you want to try contacting one of these resources if there is ever a crisis, try here:
http://www.soulforce.org/article/722

[AJLove]

The pastor also said I didnt give God a chance for me to make the decision that I'm gay at a young age.

[AJLove]

He said I was dishonoring god by pursuing my homosexual lifestlye.

[Zerbie]

You're you no matter what your age.

Does your pastor dishonor God by being straight?
The question should not even make sense. The statement he made about dishonoring God makes no sense. Further, it is an abusive statement. :mad:

Does it provide you with greater light and clarity, a feeling of uplift, peace, contentment, at-one-ness with the universe God created? Or did it trigger buttons of doubt, fear, or shame? Heavy feelings? Dim feelings?

Choose to follow the thoughts that bring light, lightness, energy, life, love, enthusiasm, clarity, ability to work, ability to focus, to give, to heal, to generate compassion for others. Life lies *there.*

[Pablo Rafael]

AJ

At the present time it might be necessary for you to go along and pretend not to be gay. You are young and don't have the freedom to be totally on your own. You only have a few years until you will have total control over your situation. Maybe you will just need to be patient and relax for a while. However, as one who took the "pretending" route for 30 years, I have to say that denying your sexuality is not healthy.

Your mom and your pastor probably want the best for you. I also was of the anti-gay persuasion for a long time. I didn't mean to hurt anyone with my anti-gay beliefs. However, I was totally wrong. Your mom and pastor are totally wrong as well. They don't know yet that they are in error because they are just following the beliefs that they were taught.

And it is evil motives in one's heart that dishonors God. You know that your thoughts and desires are not dishonoring God. Since I have accepted myself as a gay man, I have come closer to God. When I was struggling to be straight, I was in a battle against God and the plan that he had for me in life. You need to be who it is that God wants you to be. If God's plan for you is life as a gay man, rejoice. God knows what he is doing.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[AJLove]

I also recall him saying that "God made man and women for each other. The lifestyle your living is destructive and harmful.YOU can choose to not live it. So I feel you need more male role models in your life. I believe that would help you to become the man that God wants you to be. Listen son let me know if I'm wasting my time..And you cant do what makes you happy do what makes God happy."

[Zerbie]

I also recall him saying that "God made man and women for each other.

Maybe we were all made "for each other" in that we are to share, help out, and uplift one another, whatever our relationship.

The lifestyle your living is destructive and harmful.

What "lifestyle" are you living AJ? School? Home? Watching movies with a person you like?
Gee whiz, how terrifying.

Your pastor has hooked his mind to the word "gay" and decided all kinds of things about "your lifestyle" based just on his imaginings of what that word means, and his imagination is just plan WRONG.
Gay couples who are loving and live peaceful, quiet lives, minding their own business destroy NOTHING and harm NO ONE.
The stories about gay men all dying before they're 50 & the like are PROPAGANDISTIC LIES.




YOU can choose to not live it.

If he means you can choose not to date another guy, that is true. It is up to YOU and you alone whether or not you choose to impose that restriction on your behavior. For the moment, because you are still under 18 and need to have peace at home, you might decide to lay low and not come out as gay. You might be safer, psychologically, that way. But I do NOT recommend staying closeted for the long haul - there are a lot of people here on this site who did that, and they regret those lost years.


So I feel you need more male role models in your life. I believe that would help you to become the man that God wants you to be.

How dare he say you are not who God wants you to be?! :mad:



Listen son let me know if I'm wasting my time..And you cant do what makes you happy do what makes God happy."

I guarantee you AJ, this man has no secret formula for knowing "what makes God happy" any better than you can know.

You have to get along at home because of your young age, so do what you have to to have peace. But even now, you must take responsibility for your own beliefs about this topic. What is your sense of what God "wants" in this department?

What do you believe is the most essential element of Christ's teaching?

[AJLove]

I also recall him saying that "the reason that God destroyed Sodom is because the people in it practiced homosexuality.That's why Sodom was demolished,and theirs no other way to interpret that."

[Zerbie]

I also recall him saying that "the reason that God destroyed Sodom is because the people in it practiced homosexuality.That's why Sodom was demolished,and theirs no other way to interpret that."

That's an incredibly ignorant statement.

AJ - why don't you respond to what we say instead of paraphrasing your pastor's position in installments?

[scott snedeker]

Clearly your mother is not going to accept that you are gay. So you can tell her that while living under he house that you will make an effort to "not pursue living true to to your gay nature."

This is true because the if you made no effort, you would be having JC over for dinner and going on dates and participating in gay teen activities etc. You are fulfilling your word and requirement. This does not mean that you will try to change your attraction to females or completely disconnect yourself from gay resources. The "effort" condition is being fulfilled without losing your soul or lying to your mother


As far as your intimate sexual feelings go, tell her you will accept God's will. And whatever he decides will manifest. Tell her that this isa private personal issue between you and God. Remind her that mother's involvement a son's sexual interests is inappropiate and that you will not discuss it with her. For a mother to pry into the sexual feelings of her son is crossing boundaries of propriety that may even have legal consequences.

These are my suggestions for you to establish personal boundaries to protect you developing identity and self esteem. Do not offer or agree to prticipate in any discussion with your mother or any other unaccepting person your gay nature. It is too precious to allow the mistreatment that will result. You are a person whole and complete and entitled to be who you are. You circumstances require that part of you shining being be kept safely hidden for now.

Work toward becoming independent. Get a job if you don't have one. It will get you out of the house every day. Save money and keep it safe or even secret. Money buys freedom.

In two years you will be eighteen, accustomed to working, legally free, financially free and can get a start renting a room. You can still visit your mother's house, but now that you are on your own (and I'm sure a great guy like you will be offered a little help along the way too) Then start dating! Explore the world that is out there!

What you do with your private life won't be shared with your mother. If she pries reply with "Now you know that's out of bounds. Bring it up again and I'll have to leave." If she brings it up again reply with "Prying into my sexual interests is inappropriate and quite frankly disgusting behavior can you please

You can continue to find sanctuary here with us, AJ. Her you can be yourself. WE are all on your side

[AJLove]

Why is it that people say that in order to have a successful family you need a man and a women in the house if not your child wont turn out right?

But I'm sorry for the long suspension. So much has been going down lately with my mother saying it's a lifestyle that can be cured or changed by God blah blah blah. It's working my nerves but I'm used to it.

[tpdncr4christ]

Why is it that people say that in order to have a successful family you need a man and a women in the house if not your child wont turn out right?

But I'm sorry for the long suspension. So much has been going down lately with my mother saying it's a lifestyle that can be cured or changed by God blah blah blah. It's working my nerves but I'm used to it.

If you have for the last two thousand years believed that the only way to create music is to play the piano, you have no substantial proof that playing the piano is the only way to make music. Its no different than child rearing. If , for the last two thousand years you have raised children using only a mother and father, that does not prove that a father and mother must be present to raise a child into a decent human being. It falls into the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Which is just fancy latin for, this what we ended up with, so what we did has to have caused it!

A single mom, or a single father can raise children excellently. A village can raise a child. So why can't two men, or two women, in a loving caring relationship with both each other and their child, do the same?

[AJLove]

As an African American it's very hard for me to live in the black church. And I get kind of touchy when I read an article about a Black pastor who is an "ex-gay" and married with children,saying that we are sexually broken,and that we have lost the natural use of ourselves, and at the same time is very good hearted. The words themself ex-gay,former gay.ex-homosexual,give me the creeps,but not as much as they use to. They said that we're not born this way theres a way out.........and we follow false bibical interpretations. That's why God made one man and one woman..........it makes me sick. Some people think that homosexuality is a new think but it has been around since our very existence. It was practiced in many different cultures such as Native Americans Africans.and the Chinese. I believe the reason why people look for change or a way out is because they are not happy(like my mother). So they think that since they change it's possible for everyone. They dont understand they God has a different plan for each of us,am I right?

[scott snedeker]

Not only are you right, but you are impressing the hell out of me with your self possession and confidence in your entitlement to be who you were meant to!

I only wish I had as much courage at your age!!!!!!!

You are growing emotionally in leaps and bounds! you are actualizing your identity. Something few people can do!

You made my night tonight, AJ!

You are part of the future! You will lead others to find the courage to be!!!

I am privileged to know you!:applause::applause::applause::applause: :rainbow::love::love:

[AJLove]

:o lol Thanks......I'm getting better. I've been doing my homework. I have an idea I need you or someone to pretend to be an anti-gay pastor and ask me questions and say comments that I need to be prepared for. Then I'll answer them the best way I can

[scott snedeker]

:o lol Thanks......I'm getting better. I've been doing my homework. I have an idea I need you or someone to pretend to be an anti-gay pastor and ask me questions and say comments that I need to be prepared for. Then I'll answer them the best way I can


One way is to answer a question with a question like "What is it about my sex life that fascinates you so?" or "Do you hear God's voice in your head telling you about me and my sexual attraction to guys?" or "I'm not comfortable with an adult that is so curious about the sexual feelings of a minor, I think I'd better tell my guidence counsellor at school about your interest in my sexual desire. Do you mind if I record our conversation so I can play it back for him?"

Then see how quickly the conversation stops.

predators and cockroaches shun the light....they don't want the scrutiny. It often reveals their alterior motives.

Put his motives on the defensive. He is more vulnerable than he realizes!!!! Public opinion is very hostile to anyone who resembles a sexual predator!!!

[scott snedeker]

Why not bring a tape recorder to you next visit telling the pastor saying "I'm really trying hard to resolve my sexuality, so can I record our conversation so that I can listen to it again?" Record this with his consent. Then it can be used as evidence!

The ask the questions I suggested.

[Kelli Busey]

I am a trans woman and previously had no contact with th GLB community. But since ENDA and the out pouring of love I have become deeply involved. There is not greater love than the love you have for your fellow human. The love I witness in the GLBT community inspires me to live a life that before was unknown to me. You are part of this life and part of the wonderfull love.
God bless.:)

[AJLove]

:)Thanks........

Just recently I talked to a gay associate of mine(which we really dont get along). I told him my views of the Bible,and how I believe homosexuality is not a sin.....it's natural........blah......blah.....He said why are you twisting the Bibles words. I said I'm not theres a big difference from that and interpreting. I've done my research and I used to be where you are. He said whatever your trying to twist the Bible to support you. I choose to be gay and the Bible says that being gay is wrong.. I said that's you I never choose to be gay then that's when he said well how did you become gay then?That's when he hung up on me.

There was also a situation where a another associate of mine is trying to be ex-gay. So I wrote him a letter telling him my belifs and here's another option you may have never heard before and if you need anything I'm here to help. He hasnt talked to me at all. What am I doing worng. I'm just trying to help.They said I'm crazy and stupid.............what do I do.......I have no gay male friends in my school who understands me.

[Zerbie]

:)Thanks........

Just recently I talked to a gay associate of mine(which we really dont get along). I told him my views of the Bible,and how I believe homosexuality is not a sin.....it's natural........blah......blah.....He said why are you twisting the Bibles words. I said I'm not theres a big difference from that and interpreting. I've done my research and I used to be where you are. He said whatever your trying to twist the Bible to support you. I choose to be gay and the Bible says that being gay is wrong.. I said that's you I never choose to be gay then that's when he said well how did you become gay then?That's when he hung up on me.

There was also a situation where a another associate of mine is trying to be ex-gay. So I wrote him a letter telling him my belifs and here's another option you may have never heard before and if you need anything I'm here to help. He hasnt talked to me at all. What am I doing worng. I'm just trying to help.They said I'm crazy and stupid.............what do I do.......I have no gay male friends in my school who understands me.

Oh, hon. Consider how NEW this all is to you - did you have these beliefs only a year ago? No? That's kinda where they are, so it sounds.

Leave the door open if they want to talk to you about it, but don't insist. When the topic comes up again, then you state your views. But since you've brought it up (sending the letter), you've already done your part in making it known that you are a safe friend to talk to someday, when they want to face this. IF they do.

AJ - something difficult to accept is, some people choose NOT to accept themselves. We have to leave them the authority to go down that road, even when we know how painful it is. Only they have the power to choose differently.

OT: I find it quite amazing that a gay guy said he "chose" to be gay. In all my life, I've never heard that one before!! I would have wanted to ask him what factors he took into account in the "choosing." Did he flip a coin, or what? (Yes, you did detect some sarcasm there, because I find his statement completely incomprehensible as it stands.)

[AJLove]

I believe the reason that act that why is because they were taught you cannot be a good Christian and be gay. And knowing gay guy who is is unusual and not right. They questioned my views..but yet if they believe that being gay is a sin than why are you still gay? I'm offering you the knowledge of the possibility that you can be gay and Christian. I have feeling I'm going to lose friend over stuff like this. When all I'm trying to do is help but they dont want to listen. They said I didnt know what I was talking about...I was wrong. I guess this a journey they have to take on their own....like I'm taking mine. I just hope they will understand. The first guy I tried to help treats me so bad. But I still respect and I wish him no harm.

[scott snedeker]

I have feeling I'm going to lose friend over stuff like this.
But only people who demand that you look back and mutilate your self emotionally because they fear to stop mutilating themselves. They left you out of fear. And fear-based decisions have the worst outcomes!!!

They are not entitled to demand that you emotionally mutilate yourself as a condition of their friendship. They don't want to mutliate themseves alone. Piteous indeed!

That's blackmail and abuse if you agree.

But you have gained the freedom to disagree!!! You have the power to choose to be happy!

And you will gain new friends who take you and like you just the way you are, which is courageous and caring and gentle and gay.


What a beautiful package! Whole and complete!





I would make a lousy husband to a woman. I couldn't make love to her. I would end up either suicidal or cheating on her or both. :eek:

Why would I be such a failure? :confused:



Because I am neither monogamous nor straight.:rainbow::rainbow::rainbow::rainbow: :D

I can't model Bras either!:lol::lol:

But in my circle of lovers I help create a bliss and a loving family of passion, loyalty, comfort, safety, and joy. And without trying, it just happens like magic! :magic::love::rainbow:

You will find your home and sanctuary, and much earlier than I did. You will only get stronger and healthier. Follow your joy, your passion, your light of your heart.:love::cookie::sing::flower:

You are a shining boy :love::love::good::good:

[LightGoddess]

Dear one,
Try and be patient.....this is a moment in time and will pass.
You are so very close to where your Path of childhood will branch into your Journey of adulthood. Even still, you must Honor your Parents always as much as is possible. This does not mean you must agree with or walk their path, their truth, when you embarc on your own Journey. Whether or not your Parents realize it, they gave you life so that YOU could live it in your authenticity....not so they could live it for you. And live it you will. The time will come when you may do so on YOUR terms....soon, very soon.

Until that time comes, be patient with the confusion of your Parents. Honor their path while you prepare to walk your own. Realize they genuinely only want "the Best for you" and that their understanding of the best for you is based on THEIR truth, which is not the only truth. Honor their truth and prepare to find your own.

You are a Beloved child of God. God is not nearly so small as most have been led to believe. Each faith cannot singly or fully encompass the the "Big Picture", the complete concept of Divine essence.....Each path has something to offer, a glimpse of the many aspects of the Divine. Each path a piece of the puzzle. Gather the pieces and a truer image begins to emerge. Find that which is true for you.

You are a part of the Divine light....you cannot be abandonned by the source of which you are an integral part. God shines so brightly only because YOU are a part of that light. God rejoices as each child experiences and expresses the most Divine essence....that of love. ALL love is sacred in God's eyes.

When you do go forth on your Life's Journey, honor the paths of others but be authentic to YOUR path of Heart. Find and Honor the Divine within you, and the Divine in the world. To find God on your path, be authentic to who you are, try to harm none, be kind to yourself and kind to others as much as possible and love as YOUR heart commands.....for God is within you. You are created in God's image. You do not have to become perfect, you were CREATED perfect. Just be who you are. Just shine your light. The more you deeply and authentically that you love, the brighter you shall shine.

Blessings to you!!!
Namaste'

Rev. JL Wortham

[AJLove]

Once again you guys your words have enlightened and encouraged me,and I thank you.

But now I have another scenario:

I have to talk to my pastor again but this time about my views of the bible and homosexuality and how the bible mentions nothing of it. My pastor is a very good man his heart is of love and kindness. Last time we talked he brought up the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and said God destroyed it because of homosexuals. I didnt know what to say because I didnt have my knowledge on the topic. But now I've learned so much since then and still fill I dont know. Can you guys help me out and tell me what I should expect? Cause next time I want him to understand. But how?

[AJLove]

What could I say if he brings up the passage about how once a man leave his mother and father he be and his wife become one flesh? Or the Creation story?Or what about the vagina and penis where made for each other (male-female sex only) anything else is unnatural.

[scott snedeker]

He will be speaking for himself. You speak for yourself. His purpose is to serve you. So make the discussion useful to you. here are some of my suggestions:

First Lay some ground rules.

For one thing keep in mind that Sex is always digusting except in two circumstances: Yourself or two physically perfect people.

Old people have sex --- ugh!

Fat people have sex ---oh my God!

Tortoises have sex --- okay!! Step away from the camera!!

If you imagine too long you might laugh, vomit or faint. But to them it is beautiful and natural----and none of our business.

No discussions regarding your sexual interests.

No talks about vaginas or penises or anuses or any other organs pul-lease!

And Most important!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No discussions from Leviticus, Deuteronomy or Old Testamant

Make him understand that the discussion will end before it begins if he does not agree to this condition!!!!!!!!


Keep the topic to Christ's teachings only


Any time he makes a statement or question regarding your sexual interests and you feel uncomfortable remind him that he is out of bounds.

Ask:

"What would Christ say if he were here in the room with us"

"How does this resolve with Christ's uncondtional love that he has for me?"
"I still know that Christ loves me unconditionally. That means without Changing who I am to satisfy anyone else. Let's talk about what that means"

"Christ taught many how to love. I see this as his message. He had great love for men. Why would someone want to turn me away from loving? I believe I have equal entitlement and duty to explore my capacity to love. I think that for someone to make me feel bad about my love for another man goes against Christ's teachings."

"Let's discuss why making people feel bad about their feelings of love goes against Christ's teaching of breaking down the barriers to love. Let's discuss the examples of his challenges to reigious authority on the conditions they placed on God's love."

"So you see, I am protecting my faith from well meaning but misdirected intentions. Intentions that I believe are harming my faith, my emotional develpment if I am mislead by them"

"I think that if you can help me strengthen my awareness of Christ's unconditional affirmation of his love for me, then you truly have fulfillied his mission. Can we focus on unconditional affirmation of love?"

[enter homophobic caution or passage]

"That sounds conditional and sends off alarms. Let's find something less threatening to discuss."

[enter homophobic caution or passage again]

"You lost me. I am looking for examples of uncoditional affirmation of love. Can we stick to that topic please."

[enter homophobic caution or passage again]

"I think that though you my not agree with my interpretation of Christ's teachings, you must agree that they are thoughtful and reasonable. I am content to agree to disagree. I appreciate the time that you have offered me. Thank you for your time. I promise that I will continue my spiritual exploration, but I have learned all that I can here and must move on."


Only stay if the time spent is truly useful to you. Your time is important. Make him understand that if he helps you improve your awarenes of Christ's unconditional love then he is serving you. If he can't do this then you must go elsewhere because you feel he is leading away from Christ's path.

Though I am not a christian, I embrace Christ's teachings. So I do so without anyone's bias. He taught how to love in one of the most brutal eras of history. His is the handbook on how to love everyone. I have encountered no message more affirming save one, which is my own spiritual paradigm. That Love is the universal connection of all living things.

[Daniel]

Follow them to the letter and you will have spared yourself a great deal of pain. Do not. And you will be agreeing to putting yourself through someone else's meat grinder.

You don't have to have all the answers. And the pastor who thinks he does has what is called an 'ego' problem. You don't want his problem to become your problem.

Stand your holy gay ground.

[AJLove]

'm taking notes guys.....lol

I'm previously researching the Kinsey Scale. I'm going to try to explain to him that human sexual diversity is natural,and so is exploring your identity. People who may have had unwanted homosexual desires or feelings and have gone through therapy(non-religious sometimes). I would not say they changed but simply found out who they natural were and for them not gay. Many of people who no longer have homosexual feelings do not like to be placed under the category of "ex-gay". Many people do not know that through life your sexual preferences may change. But everyone is different. You may start off gay then through the years become straight( not because of therapy or pressure but natural causes)The same goes for heterosexuals. However there are also those who cannot change because they started off and always have been exclusively homosexual or heterosexual. Though through their life they may explore their preferences and have temporary feeling but then they no longer have them. This is what I believe the ex-gay movement does not realize. Most clients are sometimes a 2 to 4 on the Kinsey scale( bisexual sometimes most heterosexual sometimes mostly homosexual but still bisexual). However there are cases where an en exclusive gay 6 ( starts off gay) becomes a 1 on the scale,0 is exclusively heterosexual. These cases are very rare,an just because it worked for them does not mean it'll work for every one else.It is very dangerous for someone to try to change there sexual orientation against there own will. Everybody is different and what people need to understand that sexual diversity is not new and does not only involve humans. Animals do it to( So I've guess they have sinned and need to be saved........ right?):cool:

It'll be a while before I'm done with my research. Here what I'm looking at:


Ancient Roman and Greek culture
Ancient Hebrew Culture
History if Homosexuality
Ex-gay Movement
Ex-gay Stories
Ex-gay Survivor Stories
Sexual Diversity
Sexuality in the Animal Kingdom
Homosexual Stereotypes and myths
Gay Churches
Homophobia
Science in Ancient Times.
Causes of Homosexuality
Conservative perspective of Homosexually
Liberal perspective of Homosexuality
The Bible
The So-Called Harmful and Unhappy Gay Life.


I forgot to mention that through research I've learned that some of the clients that claim to have changed pretend to be heterosexual and suppress their feelings because of what other people think is right. Also the ex-gay movement is mostly based on politics and in order for some one to be in an advertisement, you not have done any same-sex activity for three years(no change there). Also you are declared an ex-gay as soon as you walk into a convention.........yeah I know. Heterosexuality is not for everyone. Homosexuality is not for everyone. Decide what is best for you. Do what makes you happy,not because of someone else but because you want to. As I was recently telling my mother the Bible the human mind and the Earth may seem simple on the surface. But underneath it's full of complexity.Many people quote from the bible without asking themselves these questions: What time period was this? What was the culture like then? What knowledge of the sciences did we have? On other words you may the words but do you know what they mean, and why they mean it.

Oh by the way King James was gay wooowwwwwwwww....BIG surprise.:eek::lol:

Random question
Are Hermaphrodites mentioned in the Bible?

[Zerbie]

Bravo, AJ!! :applause::applause:

You've done a lot of balanced research! Yippee!

I am glad to see you coming to your understanding, and really owning it.

[AJLove]

In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah did Lot get raped? And someone said that "he knew the men of Sodom where homosexuals that's why he offered them his daughters and told them not to do such a wicked thing by having sex with the angels (which were man they said).Lot said that having sex with men is wicked." I'm confused.

Today on the way to church my mother asked me if I was an atheist because she think I'm twisting the words of the Bible. And so does my uncle he says I'm trying to make it right when itr is clearly worng.But he doesnt even read the Bible yet alone attends any church. He says "I watch the gay programs on tv". Wooooow big deal. Your point? But while we were arguing our car almost flipped over and we fell in a ditch. I was not phased by this. But my mother was crying. I predicted that would happen.

[Zerbie]

In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah did Lot get raped? And someone said that "he knew the men of Sodom where homosexuals that's why he offered them his daughters and told them not to do such a wicked thing by having sex with the angels (which were man they said).Lot said that having sex with men is wicked." I'm confused.

Good grief, so am I.

There was no such CONCEPT as "a homosexual" until about 100-150 years ago.

[AJLove]

Many people say that Sodom and Gomorrah were full of homosexuals. But if the population was both young and old as the scriptures say, then that cannot be true. The young had to be born some way. Were there women in Sodom or near it?

[tpdncr4christ]

Many people say that Sodom and Gomorrah were full of homosexuals. But if the population was both young and old as the scriptures say, then that cannot be true. The young had to be born some way. Were there women in Sodom or near it?

Not to mention that Lot was willing to give up his daughters to the people, and they were willing to accept them. Hmm...

[AJLove]

Yetser I had a very long discussion with my uncle and he said to me. AJ God made man and women to procreate. Can a man and a man and a woman and a woman procreate. I said no. Then he said "why? Because it was meant to be. God didnt make a man and a man and a woman and a woman to be together.And that's a fact."

I told about people they cant have babies and hermophodites etc....but he said" Your avoiding the question, you know it's not right so you just dont want to admit it." I didnt know what to say I guess all the research I've been doing wasnt enough.

[paul]

Yetser I had a very long discussion with my uncle and he said to me. AJ God made man and women to procreate. Can a man and a man and a woman and a woman procreate. I said no. Then he said "why? Because it was meant to be. God didnt make a man and a man and a woman and a woman to be together.And that's a fact."

I told about people they cant have babies and hermophodites etc....but he said" Your avoiding the question, you know it's not right so you just dont want to admit it." I didnt know what to say I guess all the research I've been doing wasnt enough.

There will always be some people who can argue better than you, there will be people you can argue better than. You will never have peace until AJ is convinced in himself. If there were no people to tell you what "God" thinks, how would you go about figuring out what "God" thinks? If your security depends on being able to win an argument, you will forever be insecure. If your security depends on knowing that you have wrestled with "God," not people...then you will always be secure.:love:

[keltic63]

Yetser I had a very long discussion with my uncle and he said to me. AJ God made man and women to procreate. Can a man and a man and a woman and a woman procreate. I said no. Then he said "why? Because it was meant to be. God didnt make a man and a man and a woman and a woman to be together.And that's a fact."

I told about people they cant have babies and hermophodites etc....but he said" Your avoiding the question, you know it's not right so you just dont want to admit it." I didnt know what to say I guess all the research I've been doing wasnt enough.

you were on the right track. Would your uncle prohibit sr. citizens from marrying seeing as how they can't reproduce? what about men and women who are sterile or impotent? Should there be laws requiring heterosexual couples to produce children within a reasonable amount of time of being married?

There will always be some people who can argue better than you, there will be people you can argue better than. You will never have peace until AJ is convinced in himself. If there were no people to tell you what "God" thinks, how would you go about figuring out what "God" thinks? If your security depends on being able to win an argument, you will forever be insecure. If your security depends on knowing that you have wrestled with "God," not people...then you will always be secure.:love:

oh, Paul, you've said so much here! yes, there's always someone who will be able to say things better. the key is to argue from confidence. and in our case, so many of us have wrestled with God on this issue, and having done so, have gained much confidence. That confidence comes through in much more than these discussions or arguments; it shines through in our daily lives.


and there's always that great comeback that you think of about an hour after the argument is done........ *sigh*

[tpdncr4christ]

I told about people they cant have babies and hermophodites etc....but he said" Your avoiding the question, you know it's not right so you just dont want to admit it." I didnt know what to say I guess all the research I've been doing wasnt enough.

you could of told him, "You're avoiding the response, you know it's right you just don't want to admit it."

When someone convinces himself of something, the only person who can convince them otherwise is usually himself.

[LightGoddess]

AJ,
I can see you are surrounded by those who are seeking to change who you are....seeking to "help" you to define yourself by their vision of who you should be. Likely they sincerely believe they are doing so for your benefit too....sigh! Yet your life is not about them, it is about you and YOUR vision of who you are. YOUR highest ideal of who you want to be.

I feel there is an important distinction between Spirituality and Religion. Here is how I define such. Spirituality is your personal relationship to the Divine, to God. Religion is others trying to define that relationship for you.

Understand that no matter how adeptly you argue, you will not be able to convince everyone of the validity of your message. Some will never open their minds, for their hearts are closed. You cannot change their thinking or feelings. Each Soul finds enlightenment in It's own time....not in ours. "to everything, there is a season".

I sense you have the Soul of a Teacher. This is a wonderous thing! What you will learn that will make you a great Teacher is that your students will learn at their own pace....some of the seeds of Knowledge and Wisdom that you plant will quickly find fertile minds/hearts/Souls and will sprout quickly. Others will find rock soil and may take years to take root. Do not be attached to the outcome of these discussions. It does not matter if you convince them today. Just keep spreading the seeds....your truth.

Also, regardless of the outcome in these discussions, do not let them define you or your truth. Say what you must, speak your truth but try not to have an expectation or seek validation of who you are from these people. Ultimately, the only validation any of us will find, will come from within....for this is where God resides. You need not defend nor seek external validation that you are acceptable to God. You were created perfect, in God's image. All the opinions in the world will not change this. God already knows you are perfect.....not surprising since you are God's creation...lol. Anyone else's opinion really is not relevant. If you seek to Honor God, be the perfect being that you already are. Love as your Heart commands and doubt not God's wisdom in creating you as you are. God created us to love....who we love is not important....only that we love. Do not seek to change who God created you to be. Honor that creation, and God, by living authentically.

What a bright and wonderous young man you are! I would be honored to have a Son like you! Your Parents are Very blessed!

"Once in awhile it really hits people that they don't have to experience the world in the way they have been told to." -Alan Keightley

Rev. JL Wortham

[scott snedeker]

You see it doesn't matter if you get you uncle or your pastor or anyone else to agree with you.

You can finish any and all discussions with the following:

"I can see that you do not agree with my view, but you must agree that my view is well thought out and resaonable. If we agree to disagree but respect the integrity of each other's view then our conflict is resolved. Are you willing to return my respect for your reasoning with ackowlegement and respect for me in kind, or do you return respect with disrespect?"

"To do the latter would be a poor example indeed and one that I promise I will not follow because I respect mysef too much to do so."

"You have heard my view and I have heard yours. Unless I change my view or you change yours, we should not bring this up anymore ."

And if anyone persits in bringing up the topic again say "Sorry that's out of bounds," and walk away. I would not debate any further unless they want to shift their posture.

[AJLove]

I understand. I feel now that I owe no one an explanation. I can just simply find the answers in my heart and in God.

When I was younger about 4 or 5 my little brother tried to do oral sex on me, I shoved him away. Then I was recently told that I another boy asked me to kiss him and I did so. Is this rape or the reason why I'm gay. If not I'm very willing to accept the fact that I was always like this. I was never really attracted to girls like I was to boys. I saw a girls beauty and I felt only companionship no stronger connection. However I kind of am attracted to more tom boyish girls. Or girl that kind of look like boys and act like it. Does that mean I'm bisexual?

[scott snedeker]

Actually in your Study of the Kinsey report you will find that very few people are 100% Straight or Gay. I had access to playboy and playgirl magazines in the attic (Unknown to my parents):D and soon found that the playgirl magazines were way more interesting!!!! However, now and then a woman will turn my head----for about 25 milliseconds every seven years:lol:

Nah! the experimentation as a kid you experienced was likely nothing more than curiosity. Especially if you weren't traumatized at the time---which sounds less traumatic than being tricked into eating a hot pepper by the way you tell it.

The most important gift that you have is the first statement in your last post. You are becoming your own man more each day!:cool:

[AJLove]

Guys I'm losing my mind over here. I am so confused. I mean just a few days ago I was confident about who I was and proud. But today I've been very depressed and I'm starting to believe the pastor when he says I can change and that homosexuality is a sin. God made man and women for each other. All I here are voices in my head condemning me and I'm starting to give in to them. I feel like some voices are saying that I have to admit I am a sinner and turn myself to God so that I will be saved. While the others are saying you are already saved and God loves you and there is no need for you to change. But lately the "I am a sin" voices have been ponding in my head and I'm going crazy cause I dont know what to do. I'm very sorry about this it's just that I dont know what to do anymore......I thought I got over these feelings. However over all the thing that's stuck in my head the most is. God made male and female. not male and male or female and female. Man and women can be joined together to make a family and have children and live joyful lives. In same sex relationships the partners cannot have children of their own and that is not natural. And it seems that every time I see a husband and wife together with their children I say to myself is that the way it really is supposed to be......then I become really depressed and uncomfortable. All this time I thought I finnally accepted myself.....but then these feeling came along. I even tried saying to myself that I am natural just like the others in the animal kingdom. Then that's when I read an article that said the reason why animals conceive in homosexual behaviors is because they are also paying for Adams sin of disobeying God. I also just recently talked to my godmother who said that I used to talk about angels and see angels all the time. And that's true I used to love angels and I often felt their presence and sighted them. But now I ask myself "why is it that I can see or feel those things anymore. Am I really a sin" I thought I figured everything out including myself. But it turns out that I'm still confused. I feel that I'm becoming physically sick and stress cause of all this. There is no one who I can see in person who accepts and understands me...that's why I think this is so hard. I've been including help myself.......you guys have made an incredible impact in my life and I thank you. But it's not the same as someone here taking my hand and walking me through. I feel so alone. The kids at my school can only do so much to. I need an adult role model. I'm so confused I really am. I dont know what to do anymore. I feel like I'm giving in.:(

[Zerbie]

It's okay to go through tough times.
It's okay to be confused for a while.
It's okay not to know the 'right' answers.

:love::love::love:
Accept that you are undergoing a process. A process like this usually takes a long time. You will feel many different things along the way. I know how much these kinds of things suck. For now, your only assignment is to just survive it - - - the learning, the self-assurance, sense of who you are, sense of relationship with God and the other living creatures, will change about during this time, as it develops. And it develops during these confused times, miserable as they are when they're happening.

I'm sorry you feel alone in this. :'(

Whatever you do, do not give in to despair or regarding yourself as bad. No one "is" a sin. You are a child of God. You cannot be anything else. Right now, you are one scared and confused child of God.:(:love: He knows that. :dove:

If you have lost some sense of connection to 'angel messages,' to a sense of a guiding spirituality, it is likely because you are feeling disconnected from, and afraid to be, yourself. When we get cut off from our internal selves, we feel cut off from our root cord that binds us to God as well. The cord is still there. We just aren't feeling it, because we're scared. We're looking at how scared we are, how bad we think we are, at our intellectual confusion. It's time to sink into a place of deep trust in God. It means walking into the forrest with a blindfold on, trusting God to lead us through the thorns for a while. Ultimately, we learn no other way.

[Daniel]

Sweetie Pie.....

Listen carefully to what I'm going to say........

Get Quiet. And I mean real quiet. Go outside if you have to. Go somewhere where you can be alone and feel safe. Close your eyes. Take a deep breath and then take another deep breath.....and then keep doing that for about 20 minutes....slowly......long exhales.

You have all the answers inside you.

Right now your brain is on overdrive and it needs to slow down a bit.

I've been exactly where you are right now. I remember those feelings of being alone, wanting a role model and wanting someone to hold my hand (if he was blond and hunky that would have been a huge plus ;)). It hurts like hell. It really does. But......

If you hang on and GET QUIET things will smooth out eventually. If you spend 20 minutes simply breathing in and out slowly and consciously you will feel better. (The key word there is consciously!)

Coming out can be a real rollercoaster ride. Hang on! Sometimes we simply have to keep hanging on. So do that. Hang on. Don't give up on yourself or let anyone else convince you of what you know in your heart not to be true.


Lo7MKKKlq8E

[andrewlittle]

Guys I'm losing my mind over here. I am so confused. I mean just a few days ago I was confident about who I was and proud. But today I've been very depressed and I'm starting to believe the pastor when he says I can change and that homosexuality is a sin. ...
But it turns out that I'm still confused. I feel that I'm becoming physically sick and stress cause of all this. There is no one who I can see in person who accepts and understands me...that's why I think this is so hard. I've been including help myself.......you guys have made an incredible impact in my life and I thank you. But it's not the same as someone here taking my hand and walking me through. I feel so alone. The kids at my school can only do so much to. I need an adult role model. I'm so confused I really am. I dont know what to do anymore. I feel like I'm giving in.:(

AJ, I don't know who, here on the forums, you have the strongest relationship with. Whoever it is, send them a PM and ask for their help. Do it now. I know it's not actually holding your hand, but it may be better then talking to several unknown people like the rest of us.

And do what Daniel suggested - slow down your body and brain by controlling your breathing. Listen to him - he's good.

It is perfectly normal to go through ups and downs of self-confidence and self-doubt. That is especially true of teenagers - which is why it can be a very trying time of life. It's just that in your case, your self-doubts have been given a lot of ammunition from people who claim to love you. While I won't go so far as to say they don't love you, I will say that they love the idealized AJ more (the one that lines up with their expectations and their limitations).

The problem for them is that YOU'RE the AJ that God created and breathed life and love into - not the picture they have in their in their heads. The voices you are hearing are their voices AJ - not your own. You're playing them like you play a tape recorder, because you've heard them so often.

Without giving your address or anything else that will help someone identify you, tell us the area you live in. Let us see if between the many people on these forums we can find a name of someone who will affirm you in person - be your guide - be God's hands that take your hands.

[tpdncr4christ]

I also just recently talked to my godmother who said that I used to talk about angels and see angels all the time. And that's true I used to love angels and I often felt their presence and sighted them.

Look in a mirror, you may be surprised to find an angel looking back.

[scott snedeker]

Consider for a moment the mid 19th century "Christian" belief that "negros" did not have a soul. The term "negro" was the "proper" way that "educated decent christian" whites addressed Africans.

Now If you were to start a dialogue today with a mid 19th century preacher with the argument that you were not an inferior species and not devoid of an immortal soul. Don't you think that he would come up with complex and well "substiated with scripture" answer as to why you were less than human?

There would be no value to you in participating in this discussion!! It would be demeaning and futile to argue with this holier than thou heartless inhumane ignoramus.

Substitute "homosexual" for "negro" now.

The only thing that you will accomplish is for a very adept manipulator of people [ a common survival trait of preachers] to have a chance to twist your feelings and self-esteem inside out. Thats why you feel sick after you interact with them!!! Your inner being is sensing something is wrong when you are being emotionally manipulated. Listen to it.

Homophobic preachers are as wrong as white supremist preachers and just as manipulative. They both have a personal sense of inadequacy that they use their skills of emotional manipulation to make their predation seem substantiated. They prey to get gratification by dehumanizing others. This gives them a compensation for their personal sense of inadequacy.

Keep your soul and your spirit clean and clear of this very unhygenic thought control and spiritual predation. Stop dialoguing with them! Make it clear to any that futher discussion is out of bounds.

Seek an affirming Church. There is where you can start to build a spiritual sanctuary where your soul and self-esteem are safe to grow and develop!

[LightGoddess]

AJ,
So much wonderful advice and wisdom here for you. Personally, I dislike lables in general as they really are so inadequate in describing humanity in all it's wonderful complexities and diversity. You are simply AJ, a spiritual being in a human body with all the wonder that may exisit....created in God's own image. AJ, loves whomever AJ loves. It is as simple as that. Lables tend to exclude more information than they include.

As Joni Mitchell sang, "Love is touching Souls". It matters not what physical vehicle the Soul's that you love are encased in...whether "male" or "female" anatomically. To be honest, I have a hard time with the concepts that many revere about morality and "sin" in relation to sexual expression. IMHO, Two individuals of consenting age who both chose to become intimate with each other have no one but each other to answer to. As long as you honor yourselves and each other in such. We are created to love. Who we love, who we feel connected to is a part of our Divine, and Natural design....a part of our innate sacredness. It is also NOT for another to dictate, judge or condemn. Part of honoring God, is honoring what God created, both within us and in others.

Being authentic to who you are is essential to this. We all grow and change all our lives, expanding on who we are but for one to live their Soul's path authentically we cannot shun or abandon a part of ourselves. We must embrace (and learn to love) ALL of who we are....for all of that is sacred. Allow others to have their opinions, their philosphies, for that is their right. But as Shakespeare said "To thine own self, be true". Seek not to force change of the "truth" of others, but honor the truth of your Soul, your Heart. You are a bright light of a Soul, a beautiful, sacred being. Look into the mirror and see the Beauty of THAT. Love that, for it is in the image of God. We were not created to LOOK like God, we were created to LOVE authentically like God. Follow your Heart, love as IT commands. God created your heart to guide you in love. And God does NOT make mistakes.

Be gentle with AJ, who is a perfect Masterpiece of the Divine Creator. AJ, you are a Treasure, exactly as you are. Sometimes others around may not recognize this truth for they have rigid views on what defines a treasure. Yet you were created to God's own specifications, not to those of other humans. Everyone's a critic...lol. That is okay, their opinion's really are not relevant to anyone but themselves...so do not put too much stock into them. Be patient with them, they are young Soul's still struggling to learn unconditional love. Be patient with the process of learning to accept and love yourself. Keep working on THAT task. For that will bring honor to God....loving and accepting the Masterpiece that God created you as. Try not to focus on other's acceptance and approval. No matter what you do in life you won't please everyone anyway. These opinions are just the opinions of other humans....not God's. You already have God's acceptance, you were born with it. You are AJ, God's custom design. Perfect already....now just be who you are and love who you love.

Blessings to you!!!
Jan
Rev. JL Wortham

AJ, you are not alone. God walks with you, as do we in Spirit. You can PM me anytime if you need to talk. I wish you were in the Spokane area, I would love to meet such a bright Soul in person. In just a couple years time you will be out in the world. Able to go many places and meet many people who are kindred spirits and who will share your dreams and your path. The world is full of many wonderful, enlightened Souls who you will encounter on your path. For now we are here and though we cannot see each other we can be there for each other here. You are not alone. Hang in there, Bright One. Remember we are here for you.

[AJLove]

For the longest now I begged my mother for me to go see a counselor. I also prayed. I seen him and today and as I expected he said that being gay was not normal. I sat there in the seat saying to myself "I told you so". I'm very stressed it seems like every person I'm talking to is telling me that it's wrong, does that mean something? I keep praying for God to help me. Guys I'm lost. People constantly keep saying being gay is evil. And gay sex is anal sex therefore it's evil and sinful. It's a form of sodomy. Then the guy said that I just want to know the cause of this. He asked me when did I have these feeling and had my first sexual encounter. I told him I've know since I had my first crush in kindergarten. Then I told him I was eight when I kissed a guy. Then he said that that eight year old dont know what their doing. 'm too young to be sure of my sexuality.

[Zerbie]

AJ, the only meaning to read into the fact that the people in your 3D life have a problem with being gay is that *those are the only people you are focusing on.* I was going to say they are the only people you meet, but didn't you tell us you have some out gay friends at school, and other friends, kids, at school who are comfortable and accepting?

RE: counselors. When I was in my late teens I started counseling b/c I was worried about my sexuality. It took a couple years before I mentioned to a counselor what I was worried about and she? She fed me a lot of bizarre stories about homosexuals.:rolleyes: Since I was 21 and scared and had no degree, while she was 45 and had a doctorate, I decided that all meant she Knew Something About It. Sigh. No, she didn't. She was a 45 year old educated lady who happened to be very ignorant about homosexuality.

There ARE people with degrees who are nevertheless ignorant, and it sounds like you wound up with an ignorant counselor.

There is NOTHING wrong with you. YOU are just finely made as you are right now.:love: You know how you feel. You are not too young to know if you feel happy or angry, or bored, or turned-on. You know what you feel. You are under no obligation to label your sexuality, though if you want to, you are the one who best knows what you feel. Not some guy who gets paid $100 an hour to sit there and tell you that you don't know what you feel. :mad:

Last point for now. Don't let some dude tell you 8 year olds can't feel sexual attraction -- they *can* and some do.

[Daniel]

For the longest now I begged my mother for me to go see a counselor. I also prayed. I seen him and today and as I expected he said that being gay was not normal.

1) You asked your mother to go see a counselor.

2) Your mother chose the counselor.

3) Your mother chose a counselor that she was sure was going to agree with her, not you. Probably was some kind of conservative 'Christian' counselor, right?

AG- That's the 'math' here.

If you were in charge of getting a counselor for yourself, it would be a different story. Right? You should know this: homosexuality was taken off the list of mental disorders in 1973. Here is the history about that. Please read it in full: educate yourself!

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html

Zerbie is right: there is nothing wrong with you.

And the guy was wrong: there are plenty of people who know they are 'different' when they are 8 or 9 years old. How do I know this? Because I was one of them. Funny thing was, I was more comfortable playing with girls because the boys (straight boys) were threatening. That is not uncommon for some young gay men.

Know what? Even when I had a counselor in my mid-twenties and he asked me point blank (he was a Christian counselor with the Assembly of God Church), I lied and said "No....I'm not gay." Why? Because I had the sense that he was not going to be supportive. I got out of that office as fast as I could.

I know this is hard for you right now. Very hard.

Please- refuse to see this counselor again. Doing so would be like asking for spiritual rape. This guy is not good for you. And you have nothing to prove by standing up to him or trying to convince him that 'gay is ok'.

I know you want you mother's understanding and approval, but you may not be able to get that right now. You may have to draw a line in the sand and refuse to talk about being gay with with her- just say whatever is necessary to keep a roof over your head and a modicum of peace. Heck: you could simply tell her that the matter is between you and God.

The bottom line here is this- you have to do whatever you need to do to protect yourself.

If you see a counselor: find that counselor yourself. Here is one hotline for gay teens. Call them! You could benefit from speaking with a real live person. They may be able to hook you up with someone in your area- for free too. Call them from a phonebooth if you have to.

http://www.thetrevorproject.org/home1.aspx

And lastly, there is nothing wrong with sex between men. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Love between men is normal for men who love men. It's that simple. And what two men do in bed together is nobody's business but their own.

Anal intercourse? Some gay men love it, others don't. It's an individual thing. That said, the prostate is a place of pleasure and orgasm. If you want to know more about gay sex, go to the library and read The Joy of Gay Sex or even my favorite The Gay Kama Sutra. Again: educate yourself. Please don't mistake the ignorance of others for truth.

http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Kama-Sutra-Colin-Spencer/dp/0312167539

You need information, not attitude, or judgments.

Hang in there brother!

[AJLove]

Well guys the thing is she that counselor was the only male teen counselor available. My mom said she really dint know about who he was. Then she was worried was I angry with her I said no. She said she was only trying to help. She also said she's going to work on the PFLAG thing. Then she said isnt it funny that everyone is telling you the same thing(that being gay is wrong) I thought to myself everyone isnt telling me that being gay is wrong. Also I forgot to mention when the counselor said that being gay wasnt normal he asked me ,you know that right? I said yes. Then after it was all over I said to myself why did I say yes knowing that's not how I felt I gave in. Why? I felt stupid. I read the guys actions and the pad close attention to the questions he asked me I knew that's what he was leading up to. For one he kept saying that you know that everyone is going to agree with this. I told I've been doing my research on the internet...then he said the internet can sometimes be false not everything you read is true. Then that's when I said I look at all points of views I'm universal. Then he left it alone. Third he kept saying sexual preference. He was a kind-hearted guy and seemed pretty down to earth he also seemed like a family guy.He was around about maybe 60. He was in a wheelchair it looked as if he as paralyzed from the waist down. I know I told my mom I didnt want to come back cause I really dont.She also said that I just want a counsler that agrees with me. I said I want a counselor who is neutral. I also notices how he had Christian signs all over his office saying God is this and God is that. Then that's when I became uneasy.

All the adviced helped guys thanks. Plus I dont feel comfortable with male counslers. My mom said no you need this I dont want you talking to women. I have plenty of male role models at home.

[Daniel]

I also notices how he had Christian signs all over his office saying God is this and God is that. Then that's when I became uneasy.

All the adviced helped guys thanks. Plus I dont feel comfortable with male counslers. My mom said no you need this I dont want you talking to women. I have plenty of male role models at home.

Christian signs are on thing. Anti-gaytalk is another. Good for your for keeping your eyes and ears open.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about what you said and didn't say during the session.

The one good thing I hear your mother doing is contacting P-Flag. I think this is going to help the situation more than anything else at this point. Listen AJ. It's everyone around you that needs to get with the program. ;)

You might not want to discount a gay male counselor. If you can talk to a good one, there might be some benefits that women cannot address. That said, a really well trained counselor will work at being as unbiased as possible. That said: every person you talk to does have some degree of bias about something. You just need someone who isn't biases negatively re being gay. ;)

[AJLove]

you know I thought that I was suppose to be comfortable with the counselor I have. I told my mom we could have looked together then she said...you just trying to talk to some one who agrees with you. Sometimes she doesnt listen to me she need someone with age. And then when they say something that she agrees with then I'm wrong.