Pastor Daniel Clayton claims he can "help me?"o_O

[drewcaine]

Hey, I was looking to send Mel White an e-mail personally, but after reading the contact info on here it looks like that won't work, so I'll just post here and hope someone reads it.
My grandma's pastor, Clayton, has recently taken it upon himself to "help save me" from my homosexuality. Mid-way through the conversation and scripture references, I find out that he know NOTHING about homosexuality. So I'm explaining to him that it's like your gender and race. Later the next day he asks me to "tell me how you feel about this gender of yours".o_O I wanted to say, "I'm glad to have a **** and I'm proud of it", but that wouldn't be a very Christianly thing to say, eh? So I'm like, "It's not a gender." He's like, "What is it?" "Orientation.".
Ok, just let me stop here, basically, I have to put up with some ignorant man attempting to cure me of being gay. Sooner or later we'll both find out that it won't work...I just wish I could figure out the right way to debate the truth about homosexuality, there's still some things in Stranger at the Gate that I just don't understand.
Thanks for reading and please respond.
drewcaine

[u-dog]

Hey, I was looking to send Mel White an e-mail personally, but after reading the contact info on here it looks like that won't work, so I'll just post here and hope someone reads it.
My grandma's pastor, Clayton, has recently taken it upon himself to "help save me" from my homosexuality. Mid-way through the conversation and scripture references, I find out that he know NOTHING about homosexuality. So I'm explaining to him that it's like your gender and race. Later the next day he asks me to "tell me how you feel about this gender of yours".o_O I wanted to say, "I'm glad to his a **** and I'm proud of it", but that wouldn't be a very Christianly thing to say, eh? So I'm like, "It's not a gender." He's like, "What is it?" "Orientation.".
Ok, just let me stop here, basically, I have to put up with some ignorant man attempting to cure me of being gay. Sooner or later we'll both find out that it won't work...I just wish I could figure out the right way to debate the truth about homosexuality, there's still some things in Stranger at the Gate that I just don't understand.
Thanks for reading and please respond.
drewcaine

Drew (is that right?),

First, pastor Clayton may be a fine person but he is also about as arrogant as one person can be and still live. Unless you asked him for help then who does he think he is? and if he has no psychological or counseling expertise then really ... WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS? Yikes.

You are not under any obligation to debate the truth about yourself with anyone. You are who you are and if Pastor Clayton isn't respectful of who you are then shake the dust off your feet.

What specific questions do you have about Stranger in the Gate? and about Homosexuality in general? do you have questions about homosexuality and the Bible? There are several people here who are qualified to answer those kinds of questions. fire away and we will do our best to help you out!

Dave (U-dog)

[drewcaine]

No I didn't ask him for help, it's a long story...
I was wondering what Rev. White meant when his said that the Bible is silent on the responsible love two gay men share together...what does that mean? The second thing that has really been bugging me and was brought up twice recently is that the Devil himself may cite the Scriptures (yikes!, how unfortunate); meaning to ignore this at first, but it occured more than once so I felt that I needed to ask this question: what if the Scriptures were cited to cover up the fact that homosexuality is a sin? I know it looks like I'm faltering but I'm just following God and "testing all things...", so to speak. I totally agree with the Bible is correct/understanding is fallibe thing, I've gone through that. If I were to bring this up in a debate with the Pastor again (we're supposed to talk again), or anyone else, how could I use this one correctly? This next one is about White's 4th premise, that lists things that people should be killed over and the treatment of women: just because it doesn't seem right doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow them. By all means I don't believe in having 1,000 sex gals or killing someone over self-defense, so this is why I ask this: how could I counter someone when they bring this up? How could I prove that this isn't required in this time period?
These are just sample questions that I ask. I do believe in being able to defend these debates, as we should be prepared to defend God and our faith.
I await your response.
drewcaine

PS: also, not to be discrimatory or anything, but I would prefer to have the answer from one of you Christian staff, please (unless you are one).

[u-dog]

No I didn't ask him for help, it's a long story...
I was wondering what Rev. White meant when his said that the Bible is silent on the responsible love two gay men share together...what does that mean? The second thing that has really been bugging me and was brought up twice recently is that the Devil himself may cite the Scriptures (yikes!, how unfortunate); meaning to ignore this at first, but it occured more than once so I felt that I needed to ask this question: what if the Scriptures were cited to cover up the fact that homosexuality is a sin? I know it looks like I'm faltering but I'm just following God and "testing all things...", so to speak. I totally agree with the Bible is correct/understanding is fallibe thing, I've gone through that. If I were to bring this up in a debate with the Pastor again (we're supposed to talk again), or anyone else, how could I use this one correctly? This next one is about White's 4th premise, that lists things that people should be killed over and the treatment of women: just because it doesn't seem right doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow them. By all means I don't believe in having 1,000 sex gals or killing someone over self-defense, so this is why I ask this: how could I counter someone when they bring this up? How could I prove that this isn't required in this time period?
These are just sample questions that I ask. I do believe in being able to defend these debates, as we should be prepared to defend God and our faith.
I await your response.
drewcaine

PS: also, not to be discrimatory or anything, but I would prefer to have the answer from one of you Christian staff, please (unless you are one).

Well Drew... I don't think the soulforce staff post here. They come and read from time to time. There are lots of us here competant to help with your questions and are happy to do so. several of us are pastors, several of us are mental health professionals, many of us are GLBT rights activists, none of us are on the payroll ... let us know if you'd like us to answer your questions or not

[drewcaine]

Go ahead, I don't mind, as long as you know and understand what you're talking about.
drewcaine

[Zerbie]

I was going to respond to this until I saw that only want input from Christian staff. I'm neither. As Dave (Udog) says, most of the staff RARELY ever post here. But there are a lot of Christians.

I'm trying to bite my tongue (ummm. keyboard) to refrain from making the two big suggestions that keep insisting I should share them with you.

Darn it. I'm going to make the suggestions anyway. Ya don't wanna read 'em, stop reading because here they are below:


1. DO keep looking at this from all angles. I think you are absolutely doing the right thing to examine and re-examine the texts and their many interpretations. Take your time. For many people, it is a gradual process that takes years studying their religious tradition, combined with months or years of prayer and contemplation on the serious questions the issue of sexuality brings to the forefront.

2. Take breaks from interpretations, especially from the words of other people. Don't always listen to us - whoever it is doing the speaking. It's just people. They know no more about the ultimate reality of God than you do. When it comes to the inner you, they know LESS than you do. Take time out to be by yourself and connect to God directly. Prayer, contemplation, meditation.

[u-dog]

No I didn't ask him for help, it's a long story...
I was wondering what Rev. White meant when his said that the Bible is silent on the responsible love two gay men share together...what does that mean?

Well, it means that the context of an act has an impact on its morality.

If I kill you in order to steal your wallet... thats murder.
If I kill you because you were convicted of a capital crime and I am the executioner at the prison thats NOT murder.
If I kill you because you have broken into my home and are raping my wife that is NOT murder.
If I kill you because you are an enemy soldier in a legally declared war.. that is not murder.

When the Bible talks about same sex behaviors at all it talks about rape (as in the Sodom and Gomorah story) or same sex behaviors as part of pagan worship, or sex between an older man and a younger boy but NEVER does it talk about two adult people in a committed relationship to each other. The Bible simply never addresses that situation




The second thing that has really been bugging me and was brought up twice recently is that the Devil himself may cite the Scriptures (yikes!, how unfortunate); meaning to ignore this at first, but it occured more than once so I felt that I needed to ask this question: what if the Scriptures were cited to cover up the fact that homosexuality is a sin? I know it looks like I'm faltering but I'm just following God and "testing all things...", so to speak.

Trying to figure out what the devil can and cannot, will and will not do will just drive you crazy. You can cloud ANY argument by suggesting that the other person is being influenced by the devil. All that does is excuse you from needing to actually listen to and analyze what the other person is saying. Keep your eyes and ears on Jesus and let him take care of Satan. if you focus on Satan - even in a negative way -- you will go toward satan. If you focus on God/Jesus he will draw you to himself. Here are the facts. There are THOUSANDS of verses in the Bible and only 6-9 of them have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with same sex behaviors and Jesus himself NEVER once mentions it. How important could it be? Aren't the conservative/fundamentalist the ones who are distorting Scripture when they make it the most important issue in the world?


I totally agree with the Bible is correct/understanding is fallibe thing, I've gone through that. If I were to bring this up in a debate with the Pastor again (we're supposed to talk again), or anyone else, how could I use this one correctly? This next one is about White's 4th premise, that lists things that people should be killed over and the treatment of women: just because it doesn't seem right doesn't mean that we shouldn't follow them. By all means I don't believe in having 1,000 sex gals or killing someone over self-defense, so this is why I ask this: how could I counter someone when they bring this up? How could I prove that this isn't required in this time period?

The first step, Drew, is to decide what you think the purpose of Scripture is. You can't interpret Scripture if you don't know what its for. Is it to tell you everything thats ok to do and everything thats not OK to do? is that why God gave us the Bible? Or is the purpose of the Bible to tell us about (or actually INTRODUCE US TO) God through Jesus Christ? Can the Bible save us? Or does that require a relationship with Jesus Christ?

[keltic63]

The second thing that has really been bugging me and was brought up twice recently is that the Devil himself may cite the Scriptures (yikes!, how unfortunate); meaning to ignore this at first, but it occured more than once so I felt that I needed to ask this question: what if the Scriptures were cited to cover up the fact that homosexuality is a sin?

drew,

I'm not a pastor, and I'm not staff, but I am a christian, and I'm gay. it took me a long time to reconcile the 2, but I know that God loves me as God made me. It's up to me to be the best "keltic" God ever made, that is, I need to fulfill God's best intentions for me.

U-dog has done a great job of answering your questions. I knew he would.

I want to address this part about the devil quoting scriptures. I understand how that could be a scary concept. I remember people using that particular comment on me when I was a teenager. I went to church at an Assembly of God, and I suspect that this "Pastor" is most likely of the same variety, if not the same denomination. This particular concept, about satan having the ability to quote scripture, comes from the temptation of Christ, when Jesus was praying and fasting for 40 days, the tempter did indeed try to use scripture to tempt Jesus. But that's not how your pastor and others like him are using that scripture. He, and others, like to use that saying like a spiritual baseball bat, and it's pretty effective. It certainly keeps people in line! so if you don't like what a person is saying when they are quoting an appropriate scripture, all you have to do to refute it is say " even satan can quote scripture." and you've successfully ended the person's argument. However, you've done so by implying that what they are saying is satanic, sinful, etc. and while you haven't accused the person of being a satan worshipper, you have planted the seed in their mind, or those who are listening, that this person could indeed be a devil whose intent is to trick them all. it is a downright despicable strategy to use, and is relied on by the lowest of fundamentalists pastors to keep their flock in line and to discredit arguments when they have no firm theological support for their own opinions.

another similar strategy is the "speaking the truth in love" statement. the smiling christian will engage you in conversation, and eventually make a statement with the preface "I'd never say anything to hurt you, I'm just 'speaking the truth in love' ...." and then continue to say something incredibly insulting, and hurtful, and most often is a criticism of some flaw that they see in you. Beware of those kinds of statements, and if you can't turn and run from them, by all means, brace yourself! and remember that Jesus talked about these people when he said that they look for the speck in someone else's eye, but can't see the log in their own.

[BruceChris]

I looked up Fort Smith on an emap, and I can't seem to find out much, it looks like a town of a few thousand, not too big. Larger cities have many resources, like P-FLAG chapters, and colleges, where you can find helpful and understanding people to talk to, but you can find many of these things on line. For instance,

www.pflag.org or www.gaychristian.net or http://gayintostraightamerica.com or www.whosoever.org

www.welcomingresources.org/ This site is run by a former pastor of mine, the Rev. Rebecca Voelkel. It has many resources that you will find usefull. It has a list of most of the gay supportive organizations that are connected to any of the major denominations of Christianity. You haven't told us what church you belong to.

I suspect that you can Google better that I can, but these are some of the sites that I have been to personally. Good luck, and get back to us when you can.

Here is my church:

http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1093

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

[paul]

Hi Drew,

One of the things you'll notice around here is no one will tell you what you should think. You'll also notice that no one here claims to speak for God.
I'm guessing you put a lot of importance on the scripture? And those who put pressure on you are also doing that? The thing about the bible is it can be used by anyone to argue what they want you to believe.

When someone says "the devil can quote the bible" what they are usually saying is my interpretation of the bible is from God and yours is from the devil. Hmmm. If you believe that you are going to be "judged" by God for the choices you make, does it really matter what anyone else says? Do you believe any person is going to stand next to you during that judgement? If you believe that the bible can inform your beliefs about how God wants you to live, maybe this will help.

"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the annointing you received from him remains in you; and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his annointing teaches you about all things and as that annointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in him."

You are getting some wonderful, gentle input from people here. But ultimately, you know that only Drew can answer for Drew. You cannot make your identity from what someone else says.

[BrentRichards]

You'll also find, Drew, that there are in fact people here who probably share a very similar view of Scripture to yours. I count myself an evangelical, and I hold a very high view of the authority of Scripture, as do several others here ... I do not reconcile my sexuality with my faith by saying "the Bible is wrong about homosexuality" or "it doesn't matter what the Bible says" ... I have genuinely come to the conclusion (after trying 30+ years NOT to come to this conclusion) that the church has been wrong about this issue, that Scripture does NOT speak to committed gay relationships directly, and that those who are currently using Scripture to condemn and alienate the gay community are doing serious violence to the text, and are in serious sin. Though I disagree with most of the evangelical community about homosexuality, I still have a firey evangelical heart, and the evangelical's treatment of God's GLBT children is one of the things that really stokes the fire! It is nothing less than an abandonment of the gospel in favor of (a misinterpretation of) the law.

Let me address something I read in your request to talk only to Christian staff ... ignore this if it's not relevant. I know that for me, for many years, no one's opinion on this or other controversial matters counted unless they were on the "inside" ... "yeah, he thinks its ok, but he's Catholic ... he says this, but he's a liberal ... well, we know what those Episcopalians are like ... sorry, but a Buddhist has nothing to tell me about how to live as a Christian" ... and so on. We in the evangelical community have an unwritten "list" of which authors can be trusted, and which can't. And we have a nasty tendency to give HUGE amounts of authority to our tradition, our churches, and our pastors, even while we criticize others (like the Catholic church) for trusting their church over Scripture (we say).

So, knowing that to have been my tendency for so long (I read Mel White YEARS ago, and filed him away under "one of THEM"), let me give this advice (again, this isn't a criticism, it may have nothing to do with you, and I may just be preaching to myself here ...): Don't evaluate truth based on who it comes from. All truth is God's truth. I've heard truth from atheists and lies from pastors, as I'm sure you have too. Evaluate truth as truth ... use your brain (even from your few posts, it's obvious you have a good one!), your heart, your spirit. Look at Scripture MORE, not LESS. Don't accept anyone's opinion based on whether they're in "your camp" ... or based on who they work for or what their education is ... all of that's good, but it doesn't make truth.

Yes, there are several of us here with formal theological education (I'm one). A few pastors (I'm not one). A few mental health professionals (I am one of those). And quite a few people with very significant Biblical knowledge (I hope I'm one of those). Above all, though, there are a lot of people here with a lot of wisdom and compassion ... we as Christians don't have a patent on either of those (a profound truth which I was taught by my saintly Christian mother)! Take it all in. Keep what's true, no matter where it came from!

And, by the way, welcome to the forums!

[u-dog]

You'll also find, Drew, that there are in fact people here who probably share a very similar view of Scripture to yours. I count myself an evangelical, and I hold a very high view of the authority of Scripture, as do several others here ... I do not reconcile my sexuality with my faith by saying "the Bible is wrong about homosexuality" or "it doesn't matter what the Bible says" ... I have genuinely come to the conclusion (after trying 30+ years NOT to come to this conclusion) that the church has been wrong about this issue, that Scripture does NOT speak to committed gay relationships directly, and that those who are currently using Scripture to condemn and alienate the gay community are doing serious violence to the text, and are in serious sin. Though I disagree with most of the evangelical community about homosexuality, I still have a firey evangelical heart, and the evangelical's treatment of God's GLBT children is one of the things that really stokes the fire! It is nothing less than an abandonment of the gospel in favor of (a misinterpretation of) the law.


Ok, is it possible to lust after a person THEOLOGICALLY? cuz that last statement takes my breath away and makes my heart skip a beat. You are SO RIGHT Brent (not to mention MANLY in your rightness). More and more I am coming to believe that justice for GLBT people is not the MOST important reason why this struggle is important. The integrity of the Gospel is at stake here.

[superhippy7890]

I would say do what you think is right. Only G-d has ultimate religous authority over you. You should look deep inside your self and you will find the anwer. Tell your pastor that if G-d tells tou homosexuality is wrong, you'll listen, but because He hasn't then you will go on living your life.

[Daniel]

.. I have to put up with some ignorant man attempting to cure me of being gay. Sooner or later we'll both find out that it won't work...I just wish I could figure out the right way to debate the truth about homosexuality...

Hi Drew,

Welcome. Others have addresses matters so adroitly, I have little to add. However, I would like to add one thought to the pot: there is no right way to debate the truth of homosexuality, anymore than there is a way to debate the truth about heterosexuality, or bisexuality. It's not a thing up for debate.

Do we debate the truth of the sun coming up in the morning? No. It does so whether one is sleeping or awake, eyes closed or open.

Your feelings of attraction and love are your own. Putting, or allowing these feelings to be debated only debases them.

[Pablo Rafael]

Dave and Brent, why do I have to follow your posts? I am amazed at both of you for your insight and eloquence. If there are any people who I think have a clearer understanding of the Gospel message, I have never met them. (I'm a charter member of the Dave and Brent fan club). :D

I totally agree with the Bible is correct/understanding is fallibe thing, I've gone through that. If I were to bring this up in a debate with the Pastor again (we're supposed to talk again), or anyone else, how could I use this one correctly?

Hi Drew,

I'm not a theologian, but have been in the teaching minstry of the church for 24 years. Let me just adress this one point you mentioned.

I too believe that the Bible is correct. I have no reservations about its truthfulness. However, as you mentioned, human understanding is fallible. We are forever left to interpret the Bible with our own imperfect understanding. Therefore there will always be times when we disagree with someone else. No one ever has a complete understanding. When someone claims that they have the "right" interpretation, they are fooling themselves at best, arrogant at worst. We must approach the Bible with humility.

Though the Bible is truthful, it is not always clear. I believe that God did this on purpose so that we could not think that we have the "lock" on the correct interpretation. We must ever grow in our understanding of Scripture. It's meaning is ever to be more fully imbedded within us as we grow in our Christian walk. We must seek and search and study.

Quoting verses to prove a point (proof texts) is an incorrect method of interpretation. This is useful only when someone has an idea and then looks for Bible verses to prove it. A correct understanding comes from being open to the Word and letting it speak to us. The condemnation of loving, monogamous, committed homosexual relationships is a classic example. People within the church have for millenia decided that it was wrong and then picked Bible passages to prove it. Interpretation of Scripture can't operate that way. Scripture must interpret itelf.

Quotes used against homosexuality include the Sodom story, but that doesn't work theologically because a gang rape situation cannot be applied to healthy loving homosexual relationships. The Leviticus passage can't be used unless we believe that the other holiness laws in Leviticus are also in effect. The list of sins Paul states in Corinthians deal with those who have abandoned themselves to idolatry and destructive living. There is no way those verses are speaking against loving gay couples. They speak against immorality and idoaltry in general of which all of us need to continually flee from. These arguments and more that are used to condemn homosexuality are examples of using the Bible to prove a side of an argument. But none of the verse really has any condemnation of homosexulity. To use them as such is an error.

So if the Bible is infallible, and we can never understand it, where does that leave us? I believe that all the Bible must be viewed through GRACE. Grace is God's love shown to us. He loves us unconditionally. He loved us when we were "enemies".

We must respond by showing that grace to others. We must seek to love unconditionally. Since "God is love", any use of the Bible to spread hatred, discrimination or anger, has to be wrong. Since the Bible almost never speaks about homosexuality, and when it does, it never condemns healthy loving gay relationships, it is wrong to use it to marginalize and demonize a group of people who have no choice in the matter. To use the Bible to condemn love has to be wrong.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[drewcaine]

That's exactly what I do. I say that if God came down right and and tells me what to do, I'd do it (if I'd still be living, of course). However, since it seems that God is leading my better than most people have, I'm going to follow Him and do what He's implying is right.
drewcaine

[drewcaine]

I see...well, I guess this is what I actually meant to say (couldn't focus much the other day):
How could I explain about homosexuality? I mean, explain like you explain that you believe in God Almighty? I felt like I was being steamrolled during our "conversation" with the pastor...I don't want that to happen next time. I don't mean to demean homosexuality, but I don't want to sit be quietly while Clayton throws these arrogant words at me, either.
drewcaine

[drewcaine]

Wow...this has got to be one the best best explanations ever!
Thanks man, I think I'm beginning to understand.:)
drewcaine

[u-dog]

Wow...this has got to be one the best best explanations ever!
Thanks man, I think I'm beginning to understand.:)
drewcaine


Hang in there Drew! If he steamrollers you again, come back here and we'll get you back into three dimensions again. Remember that all this stuff is your pastors "stock in trade" . He gets paid to be convincing and he has years of experience. But we have your back.:pray:

[BrentRichards]

I see...well, I guess this is what I actually meant to say (couldn't focus much the other day):
How could I explain about homosexuality? I mean, explain like you explain that you believe in God Almighty? I felt like I was being steamrolled during our "conversation" with the pastor...I don't want that to happen next time. I don't mean to demean homosexuality, but I don't want to sit be quietly while Clayton throws these arrogant words at me, either.
drewcaine

Attaboy! You have no obligation to sit and take his nonsense. Sometimes, there is an answer to give, sometimes, it's just better to refuse to listen ... if you have the option of not meeting with him again, you might take it!