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View Full Version : I Have the BEST Pastor EVER! ^-^


Casey
10-19-2007, 02:07 PM
So this week/month/time in my life has gotten so much better that everyday i wake up and just smile because i know that God is looking out for me!!

First of all, if you had read some of my earlier posts, they were very very emo and i dont like going back to reread them. But *sigh* things have gotten better! The girl im in love with and plan to dedicate the rest of my life with has reaffirmed her love for me. A few months ago she and i broke up because she felt that my soul was going to be condemned because of our relationship. I was not in agreement with this and there was a big falling out. BUT over the past months we have come together again and became the best of friends that we were in the beginning! Our love for each other has never changed and might grow into something more once she and i are ready! yay!!

But now for the real reason of this post: I had emailed my pastor and asked what her views concerning gays, bisexuals, and so forth. I had not been comfortable or ready to ask this before, but i knew that now i could handle it! and here is what she sent back:

"I do not believe that God hates gay people, or that God will condemn them to Hell because of who they are attracted to. I could not believe in or serve such a God. As I see it, there are 2 main factors involved in why people condemn homosexuality or bi-sexuality.

First, there are about 4 scripture passages that speak against homosexual sex. People who say that reading those passages in light of new social & scientific understandings of human sexuality leads to not taking the Bible seriously, that it undermines the power and authority of scripture to inform Christian living. So for them it's an issue of undermining Biblical authority.

I do not believe that the Bible was ever meant to be read as a literal piece of historical material in which every word was meant to pertain to all people for all time - a LOT of it yes, but not all of it. We all (every one of the denominations) hold to a set of sort of privileged scriptures which help us interpret the rest. In other words, some scriiptures hold more authority and power in our lives than others: We don't stone children for being sassy , though the Bible says we could. We don't force women to wear head covering in church ("because of the angels" ????) or insist on their being silent. We don't forbid the wearing of clothing made from "mixed fibers." We agree that some things have changed, and that in light of these changes the BIble does not speak eternally & definitively on these issues, that those words were written in light of certain specific cultural norms and conditions which no longer apply. The question is which scriptures, whichc issues. And for some people, the idea of homosexual sex is so abhorrent, or (I suspect) so deeply frightening that they refuse to include it in this category.

Secondly, most people who hold that concern (about scriptural authority) also believe that being gay is a choice ... that one can choose not to be gay, that they can be "healed" of their perversion, or by sincere confession and repentance can be turned from their sin. These are the folks who say things like, "God loves the sinner, but hates their sin " meaning as long as they continue to sin they are outside of God's acceptance. I reject that kind of thinking.

I have several gay friends (guys mostly - but I know several lesbians as well) and from what I know about them and their experience I am firmly convinced that our sexuality is something that is an inherent part of our whole being, our "created" being if you will. It is present from birth or shortly after, and is not something that can be greatly altered by intellectual choice. There is significant evidence, increasingly, that show anatomical & neoro-physiological differences in the areas of the brain goeverning sexual desire between gays & straights. The gay people I know have known they were "different" since their earliest awareness of themselves, as very young children.

If this is true ( and remember, a lot of folks reject this) then God has created certain of His children as gay, bisexual or transgendered people. For what purpose, only God knows, but perhaps to try and reinforce that it is love that makes the difference in transforming the world and all of us, not gender. I think that may be the point to all the amazing diversity of human beings in all their racial, intellectual, personality & emotional differences.

For me, it becomes a question, ultimately, of WWJD .... that trite little question of "What would Jesus do?" He never said a SINGLE word about homosexuality. Don't you think He would have if it was a burning issue of salvation? He did speak about treating others unmercifully, of being judgemental, and of having false idols in our lives such as money, a sense of superiority (Pharisees) and of oppression and exploitation of others.

Jesus time and time again told us that the main point of all of it; the giving of scripture, His incarnation, His ministry on earth of loving, teaching & healing, His death & resurrection - all this was that we may know the depth of God's love for us, so that we would in turn share that love with others. And it's not just one or the other - according to scripture it is always a both/and: to know that God loves us so that we may show love to one another.
Loving one another is not optional for Christians!

In light of this conviction, what would Jesus do? - he would show love, and keep reminding us that it is not our preogative to judge others. I believe that in the end God will probably save everyone, even if it's a last minute thing like the thief on the cross ... who could face the Creator at the moment of their death and still not believe?
But however it works out, THAT IS UP TO GOD ALONE!

I believe that Jesus spoke so much more about how we should be living in the here and now as God's children, as disciples of Christ and workers for the Knigdom of God - more than He ever spoke about getting to heaven (salvation) that it must be at least as important as making sure we're going to heaven."

This goes to show you that not all leaders of the church are against us!! YAYAYAYAYAY! :D :) :pray: :love: :p

BrentRichards
10-19-2007, 03:40 PM
So this week/month/time in my life has gotten so much better that everyday i wake up and just smile because i know that God is looking out for me!!

First of all, if you had read some of my earlier posts, they were very very emo and i dont like going back to reread them. But *sigh* things have gotten better! The girl im in love with and plan to dedicate the rest of my life with has reaffirmed her love for me. A few months ago she and i broke up because she felt that my soul was going to be condemned because of our relationship. I was not in agreement with this and there was a big falling out. BUT over the past months we have come together again and became the best of friends that we were in the beginning! Our love for each other has never changed and might grow into something more once she and i are ready! yay!!

But now for the real reason of this post: I had emailed my pastor and asked what her views concerning gays, bisexuals, and so forth. I had not been comfortable or ready to ask this before, but i knew that now i could handle it! and here is what she sent back:

"I do not believe that God hates gay people, or that God will condemn them to Hell because of who they are attracted to. I could not believe in or serve such a God. As I see it, there are 2 main factors involved in why people condemn homosexuality or bi-sexuality.

First, there are about 4 scripture passages that speak against homosexual sex. People who say that reading those passages in light of new social & scientific understandings of human sexuality leads to not taking the Bible seriously, that it undermines the power and authority of scripture to inform Christian living. So for them it's an issue of undermining Biblical authority.

I do not believe that the Bible was ever meant to be read as a literal piece of historical material in which every word was meant to pertain to all people for all time - a LOT of it yes, but not all of it. We all (every one of the denominations) hold to a set of sort of privileged scriptures which help us interpret the rest. In other words, some scriiptures hold more authority and power in our lives than others: We don't stone children for being sassy , though the Bible says we could. We don't force women to wear head covering in church ("because of the angels" ????) or insist on their being silent. We don't forbid the wearing of clothing made from "mixed fibers." We agree that some things have changed, and that in light of these changes the BIble does not speak eternally & definitively on these issues, that those words were written in light of certain specific cultural norms and conditions which no longer apply. The question is which scriptures, whichc issues. And for some people, the idea of homosexual sex is so abhorrent, or (I suspect) so deeply frightening that they refuse to include it in this category.

Secondly, most people who hold that concern (about scriptural authority) also believe that being gay is a choice ... that one can choose not to be gay, that they can be "healed" of their perversion, or by sincere confession and repentance can be turned from their sin. These are the folks who say things like, "God loves the sinner, but hates their sin " meaning as long as they continue to sin they are outside of God's acceptance. I reject that kind of thinking.

I have several gay friends (guys mostly - but I know several lesbians as well) and from what I know about them and their experience I am firmly convinced that our sexuality is something that is an inherent part of our whole being, our "created" being if you will. It is present from birth or shortly after, and is not something that can be greatly altered by intellectual choice. There is significant evidence, increasingly, that show anatomical & neoro-physiological differences in the areas of the brain goeverning sexual desire between gays & straights. The gay people I know have known they were "different" since their earliest awareness of themselves, as very young children.

If this is true ( and remember, a lot of folks reject this) then God has created certain of His children as gay, bisexual or transgendered people. For what purpose, only God knows, but perhaps to try and reinforce that it is love that makes the difference in transforming the world and all of us, not gender. I think that may be the point to all the amazing diversity of human beings in all their racial, intellectual, personality & emotional differences.

For me, it becomes a question, ultimately, of WWJD .... that trite little question of "What would Jesus do?" He never said a SINGLE word about homosexuality. Don't you think He would have if it was a burning issue of salvation? He did speak about treating others unmercifully, of being judgemental, and of having false idols in our lives such as money, a sense of superiority (Pharisees) and of oppression and exploitation of others.

Jesus time and time again told us that the main point of all of it; the giving of scripture, His incarnation, His ministry on earth of loving, teaching & healing, His death & resurrection - all this was that we may know the depth of God's love for us, so that we would in turn share that love with others. And it's not just one or the other - according to scripture it is always a both/and: to know that God loves us so that we may show love to one another.
Loving one another is not optional for Christians!

In light of this conviction, what would Jesus do? - he would show love, and keep reminding us that it is not our preogative to judge others. I believe that in the end God will probably save everyone, even if it's a last minute thing like the thief on the cross ... who could face the Creator at the moment of their death and still not believe?
But however it works out, THAT IS UP TO GOD ALONE!

I believe that Jesus spoke so much more about how we should be living in the here and now as God's children, as disciples of Christ and workers for the Knigdom of God - more than He ever spoke about getting to heaven (salvation) that it must be at least as important as making sure we're going to heaven."

This goes to show you that not all leaders of the church are against us!! YAYAYAYAYAY! :D :) :pray: :love: :p

You DO have a wonderful pastor ... she really deserves the title! (Keep in mind, many fundies would still deny HER right to have that title, so she knows first hand about people using Biblical misinterpretation to keep others out of their "club.") Congrats on this and your wonderful relational news. Hope we'll see you around more!

Casey
10-19-2007, 03:55 PM
Man, it sucks so much that people have to just be so... mean to each other just because we dont hold the same beliefs... *sighs* but i guess thats just how mankind always is, huh?

sailaway58
10-20-2007, 05:00 AM
That is a great letter

Pablo Rafael
10-20-2007, 08:52 AM
Casey,

Indeed you have a very enlightened pastor. If only EVERY pastor was so enlightened. Our former priest was a great guy who also had the welfare of his parishoners at heart. We have a new priest who is rather shy and quiet; I don't know quite what his ideas are. I will need to get to know him better.

I just have to comment on the topic of "Biblical authority". I know that in the Lutheran church (where I work) the the Bible is the supreme authority (as I think it should be), but on the subject of homosexuality that seems to go out the window. On the subject of homosexuality a doctrine is formulated to oppose homosexuality, and then some very flimsy proof texts are used to support that doctrine, proof texts that don't really even deal with the issue at hand. It amazes me that Christians who believe in studying the Bible and really undertanding its meaning (especially Lutherans who believe strongly in "Scripture interprets Scripture") don't use that principal when dealing with homosexuality.

On the other hand I see many gays that have discounted what the Bible has to say. They think that if the Bible speaks against homosexuality, it needs to be thrown out. I see a lot of effort made to discount the writings of Saint Paul. I can't see any reason to discount any of the Bible because there is nothing in it against homosexuality. If the Bible spoke against homosexuality, I would still be in the anti-gay camp.

I am rambling on, I see. This was going to be a short post when I started. My point is that I think the Bible is THE authority, and because it is the authority I am firmly convinced that gay relationships ARE a part of God's plan. I don't see why everyone who studies the Bible doesn't see it that way. Not that I know everything...well I do actually... but it's not nice to say that, and my humble attitude keeps me from mentioning it. :D

Tu Amigo, Pablo

Casey
10-20-2007, 04:44 PM
Ha ha!! well I, too, am lutheran! yay! high five! but i totally agree with what you are saying!

Pablo Rafael
10-21-2007, 07:33 AM
Judging from the open-mindedness and reasonable attitude of your pastor I will guess you are an ELCA Lutheran?

Here in Colorado it is all Missouri-Synod, a horse of a different color, I am afraid.

BruceChris
10-21-2007, 08:28 AM
This woman has a good idea about just what unconditional love, and not being judgemental is all about. And it touches on one area that is not often mentioned, and I believe should be.

The relation between science and religion. Every time something new is discovered by science that threatens someone's worldview, they begin to shout that science is "Attacking" religion. And yet over time, scientific truth is either accepted as part of the world around us, or additional discoveries modify our understand until it is.

I believe that science is a gift from God, as a way of finding out about the universe around us, and ourselves, a little bit at a time.

Hey, send her around to our church sometime, we would love to have her. And besides, our church charter says that we should have two co-pastors, one of each, and we're down to just one guy.

Peace and Love, Bruce Chris

dsdrane
10-21-2007, 08:36 AM
Judging from the open-mindedness and reasonable attitude of your pastor I will guess you are an ELCA Lutheran?

Here in Colorado it is all Missouri-Synod, a horse of a different color, I am afraid.


No female pastors for the Missouri Synod Luthies.

dsdrane
10-21-2007, 08:43 AM
I just have to comment on the topic of "Biblical authority". I know that in the Lutheran church (where I work) the the Bible is the supreme authority (as I think it should be), but on the subject of homosexuality that seems to go out the window. On the subject of homosexuality a doctrine is formulated to oppose homosexuality, and then some very flimsy proof texts are used to support that doctrine, proof texts that don't really even deal with the issue at hand. It amazes me that Christians who believe in studying the Bible and really undertanding its meaning (especially Lutherans who believe strongly in "Scripture interprets Scripture") don't use that principal when dealing with homosexuality.

...to interpret scripture.

Thank God the Book of Concord was created to take up the slack.

Missouri Synod types haven't felt the need to revisit doctrine since its 1580 publishing date.

Not that I'm bitter.

:rolleyes:

u-dog
10-21-2007, 01:54 PM
Just for the record: I'm the best pastor ever. You know... just sayin...;)

Pablo Rafael
10-21-2007, 02:59 PM
Just for the record: I'm the best pastor ever. You know... just sayin...;)

It's your humility that really sets you apart from the others. :applause:

Casey
10-21-2007, 03:19 PM
OK! so its a TIE on who the best pastor is! fair? :p