Please Help Me

[Robert]

I am new to Soulforce and this is my first post. I too struggle with the issue and my Christian faith. This question is a serious one and probably
best directed to the men.
I believe that some verses in the Bible have been misunderderstood---Like the destruction of Sodem. I believe the issue here was rape (not homosexuality). I fact the story lists a long list of sins that the town is being destroyed for and only the very last one listed deals with sexual corruption.
However, here is my problem. Christ says nothing about homosexuality but he is clear that we are to avoid sexual immorality. As the men know ( more than the women) sex with multiple partners is a staple of gay sex. I have been through it all---the bath houses, cruising, orgies etc. I use to think that this was just the wild side and that most gay men didn't behave this way.
But as I have gotten to know more committed gay couples who are in long term relationships I've discovered that 99% of them PLAY. Most of them do it very openly with their lovers permission, sometimes alone with other men sometimes as a couple engaged in a 3 way.
Are we to accept this as just part of our gay idendity---that gay men naturally want to and do in fact openly engage in sex with lots of other men
and that this is just to be accepted and enjoyed. Or would Christ tell us that we are not to live this way and should be in a monogamous relationship.
Please help me to understand this.

[scott snedeker]

How can love be wrong? Is more love better? Less love worse? all are rhetorical questions.

I follow my nature as closely as I can. I love to make love to men. I am in love with three people ( one triad and a duo). Our special world is full of love. I see no sin in it's design :love:

[Pablo Rafael]

Robert,

Glad to have you here. I have to confess right off that I'm not the best expert on this issue either, but I will ramble on nonetheless.

As a read God's word and try to apply it in my life, I think that for me God intends for sex to be within a married relationship. I believe that marriage is a commitment between two people to love and be faithful to each other. Whether a church or government recognizes that marriage isn't necessary for it to be a valid marriage. For me sex is to be part of a relationship with one special person. That is how it seems like it should be to me. I believe that the Biblical guidelines apply to all relationships, gay or straight alike.

At the same time I refuse to condemn those who view things differently that I. I certainly have no monopoly on the truth or any direct revelation from God. I just try to live my life in the best way that I know how.

Tu Amigo, Pablo

[paul]

Hi Robert,

Welcome from me too.

I have to agree with u-dogs question, "what do you think?" If your conscience is violated by your actions, that would raise two questions for me.

Why? and

What informs your conscience?

If you are a Christian, then it seems to me that Christ should be who informs your conscience...which of course begs the question, how do you know how Christ feels about your question. I would think that no one but Christ can answer this question for you.
How has Christ informed your other beliefs about him? Even if we assumed your figure of 99% to be accurate, do you believe that majority establishes what is moral or correct? Your life is what you make it, you do not have to conform to the majority if you believe the contrary.

[tdogg]

But as I have gotten to know more committed gay couples who are in long term relationships I've discovered that 99% of them PLAY. Most of them do it very openly with their lovers permission, sometimes alone with other men sometimes as a couple engaged in a 3 way.
Are we to accept this as just part of our gay idendity---that gay men naturally want to and do in fact openly engage in sex with lots of other men
and that this is just to be accepted and enjoyed. Or would Christ tell us that we are not to live this way and should be in a monogamous relationship.
Please help me to understand this.

I think that question is up to you and God to answer, not us. I don't believe it's a man or woman thing, I believe it's a personal thing, up to the individual.

So, how do you come by your 99% figure? Is it based on all the gay men you know? How many do you know? I think you would find it's not 99% across the board. Have you seen the statistics on the % of heterosexuals in committed relationships who have sex with other people? It's up there, this isn't a 'gay' issue.

So my question is, what brought you here and led you to ask that question here? Anyways, welcome to Soulforce forums Robert if you are truly searching for answers.....

[andrewlittle]

Do you mind if I dissect your post a little, Robert? Feel free to tell me to bug off, or to tell me whatever you please - it's just that there are some inconsistencies that I noticed.
I am new to Soulforce and this is my first post.
Please tell us about yourself. It's a little difficult to know what someone's interest in a topic is, when you have no insights whatsoever into who they are. So, Robert, who are you and what brings you here?
I too struggle with the issue and my Christian faith.
Issue? What issue is that? And who else is strugging with this issue that you say, "I too struggle..."
This question is a serious one and probably best directed to the men.
Hmmm. Would only the flippant questions be directed to the women?
I believe that some verses in the Bible have been misunderderstood---Like the destruction of Sodem. I believe the issue here was rape (not homosexuality). I fact the story lists a long list of sins that the town is being destroyed for and only the very last one listed deals with sexual corruption.
Good point - right with you, so far.
However, here is my problem. Christ says nothing about homosexuality but he is clear that we are to avoid sexual immorality.
A little depth to your assertions might be in order. Where is Christ clear about sexual immorality, and what immorality is Christ clear about?
As the men know ( more than the women) sex with multiple partners is a staple of gay sex.
Why do "the men" know this more than "the women"? Why do you assume men know that sex with multiple partners is a STAPLE of gay sex? I am a man, and I know no such thing. I know a lot of people think this is true, but many of them are people who don't know, and don't care to know, any gay people. So, who's assumptions are these and why do you assert that "the men" know this?
I have been through it all---the bath houses, cruising, orgies etc. I use to think that this was just the wild side and that most gay men didn't behave this way.
Can I ask what "I have been through it all" means? Are you gay - or did you believe you were gay, perhaps? Is this a case of projecting your own behavior onto all gay men, or maybe projecting your biases onto them? The wording "been through" is not specific enough to know.
But as I have gotten to know more committed gay couples who are in long term relationships I've discovered that 99% of them PLAY. Most of them do it very openly with their lovers permission, sometimes alone with other men sometimes as a couple engaged in a 3 way.
I second the kind of question tdogg asked - just how many committed gay couples do you know, in what circumstances, in order to come to a figure of 99%? I know committed gay couples who are just that - committed to each other monogamously. Do these people I know, perhaps, not qualify as gay by your criteria? And why, pray tell, should a higher percentage of LGBT folk display more "moral" behavior than the citizenry at large?
Are we to accept this as just part of our gay idendity---that gay men naturally want to and do in fact openly engage in sex with lots of other men and that this is just to be accepted and enjoyed. Or would Christ tell us that we are not to live this way and should be in a monogamous relationship.
Please help me to understand this.
Two quite unrelated questions, actually, linked by an "or". How do you get from one question to the other?

One is full of assumptions about what is natural for gay men - actually gross generalizations - and then asks about what should be adopted as a social norm.

The other asks a purely hypothetical question, "what would Christ tell us?"
Do you have THE answer to that? Are you about to tell us what Christ would say? Should we listen intently?

Forgive me if I sound a little - or a lot - suspicious, but we have plenty of people who have come here to openly tell LGBT they are going to hell, as well as some who have feigned being gay to get an audience before dropping the big ones, and some who come along and are gay, but wish to posit that being LGBT is simply something that can be switched off by faith - the right kind of faith.

If your questions are authentic - which I hope they are - could you phrase them in such way that might be less ambiguous and maybe do a little less generalizing in the process.

[pnggrad79]

Robert,
Everyone in the fundamentalist community wants to herald the Sodom story as the pennant for anti-homosexual rhetoric, and it simply is not talking about that. If you read Ezekiel 16:48,49& 50," As I live, says the Lord God, your sister Sodom, and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it," and again in Matthew 10: 14&15, Jesus is commissioning his disciples saying, " If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

In both cases, the prophet Ezekiel speaking for God, and Jesus himself had every opportunity and cause if the reason presented itself to condemn and castigate homosexuality but neither did. The SIN of Sodom and Gomorrah was on the surface inhospitality and spiritually a blatant rejection of the grace of God. This is why it was destroyed. Fundamentalists want to lift a story out of the Bible and use it like they like to use any story to justify their prejudices.

You have nothing to fear. Sodom wasn't about you or any other gay person.:)

[BenL]

Robert,

I've been where you're at ... a long time ago, but I remember it. You're right. There is a large segment of the gay male community that is promiscuous. I think 99 percent is kinda high as an estimate, but you make a valid point.

It seems to me there are a lot of reasons for that. One is that same-sex relationships (as opposed to sexual hookups) have not been fostered by the gay world until recently. Without the social institutions of dating and marriage, many gay men have given up finding love and decided at least to enjoy the sex. This feeds right into the hands of our enemies who use this stereotype of promiscuity as a way to ghetto-ize us and keep us out of the mainstream.

Promiscuity is by no means only a gay disease. There's plenty of it in the heterosexual community. Nor is it only a male phenomenon. So, the question is: How do YOU want to live your life? Finding a lifetime mate can be discouraging if the only part of the gay community a person has contact with is the part that glorifies youth and sex. The porn industry, the baths and the bars make themselves available as opportunities for hooking up. But that happens in straight society, too. What ISN'T as available in the gay male community are the institutions that allow us to meet and get to know other men outside of a sex-centric context. (or an alcohol-centered one for that matter)

So, a lot of what you're talking about is cultural ... both ours from within and the heterocentric culture that bears down on us from the outside. You want to know what Christ wants. My reading of the Bible tells me that Christ wants for us the same things he wants for straight folks: love, freedom, and fullness of life in God's grace. What we as gay men have to do is live our lives true to our identity but full of love, freedom and grace. Christ is not the stumbling block here, but sometimes our own internal homophobia can be.

Sorry if I got too preachy.

[Alecto]

*Requisite apologia:
I'm 21, so you might just chalk it up to naivete. I'm also not Christian, so I won't be answering your question as asked in the strictest sense.

That said, it's as other people have said. Don't let anyone talk you into something you're uncomfortable with. Of the few "rules" I have about sex and love, that's one of them. I think there's a higher proportion of unconventional relationships (as well as unconventional sex lives) in the gay community because for men (who are not sexualized as part of our oppression, vs women who are), the right to sex was / is a VERY important part of what we're fighting for, both literally and on an individual level. We've already had to overcome societal views about one aspect of our sexuality: we're a little more open to experimentation with other aspects, and thus more likely to find something we like that's out of the ordinary. Maybe you don't like polyamoury (I don't think I would either), and I'm not saying "well, you should try it". What I'm trying to get at in a rambly, just woke up kind of way is that yes there's a higher proportion of people who are ok with open relationships, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE is, and it doesn't mean you have to be.

(I make a large distinction between something that I judge other people by, and something that I judge myself by; less things apply to the former.)

Ben brings up an excellent point about the difficulty in setting for meeting someone to seriously date monogamously. That said, I think there's more and more opportunities for just social settings (in larger cities anyways). You might find out what's available (if anything) in your area by way of gay sports teams, hobby clubs, or even churches? Whatever you're into, it's at least worth finding out if a group exists or not.

[dsdrane]

As the men know ( more than the women) sex with multiple partners is a staple of gay sex. I have been through it all---the bath houses, cruising, orgies etc. I use to think that this was just the wild side and that most gay men didn't behave this way.
But as I have gotten to know more committed gay couples who are in long term relationships I've discovered that 99% of them PLAY. Most of them do it very openly with their lovers permission, sometimes alone with other men sometimes as a couple engaged in a 3 way.
Are we to accept this as just part of our gay idendity---that gay men naturally want to and do in fact openly engage in sex with lots of other men
and that this is just to be accepted and enjoyed.

I can't really add much more than has already been addressed by my fellow Soulforcers...other than to say that what you describe above has not been my experience at all.

And I'm no neophite, m'kay? :cool:

What you describe does exist, but I don't see it as specifically a gay thing. And, frankly, if this is all you're finding in your gay community, you're simply not looking hard enough.

[scott snedeker]

. What we as gay men have to do is live our lives true to our identity but full of love, freedom and grace. Christ is not the stumbling block here, but sometimes our own internal homophobia can be.


Ben,

I couldn't agree more, especially the last phrase. Which is why I feel that adopting a "Ward and John Cleaver" gay adaptation of heterosexist monogamy in response to unrealistic expectation of our "enemies" to prevent feeding their fire is a mistake. To me, it feels like it's affirming their entitlement to their spiritual transgressions.

The freedom of a gay person to be polyandrous or monoandrous should be based on the individual nature. Saying that people like me damage the position of gay rights seems unfair and feels like betrayal.

Again as with many other decisions, I believe it is fear that drives some of us to take the stance of disaffirming individuals within our own group. I think recognizing the manifestation of this fear and acting on it differently will strengthen us as a people. :)

Fear is the biggest enemy of us all. :eek:
Love is our best friend :love:

[dsdrane]

Which is why I feel that adopting a "Ward and John Cleaver" gay adaptation of heterosexist monogamy in response to unrealistic expectation of our "enemies" to prevent feeding their fire is a mistake.

I think I understand what you're saying, Scotty...but who, exactly, is calling for such an adaptation?

Besides, perhaps, some Log Cabin-ers.... [I kid, because I love.]

:rolleyes:

[Daniel]

I've been where you're at ... a long time ago, but I remember it. You're right. There is a large segment of the gay male community that is promiscuous. I think 99 percent is kinda high as an estimate, but you make a valid point.


Is is valid to assume that a large segment of the gay community is promiscuous?

Research done in England by Sigma Research, which has done extensive research on HIV prevention, gay sexuality etc, notes on p 80 of Time for More: Findings from the National Gay Men’s Sex Survey 2000 that:

Having had a regular male partner during the last year was more common than having casual sex (71.3%). Anal intercourse was also more common with regular rather than casual partners:81.8% of men with a regular partner had anal intercourse with a regular partner compared with the 61.6% of men with a casual partner who had AI with a casual. Finally, while 55.5% of men having AI with a regular partner did not always use a condom, 38.0% of those having a AI with a casual partner did not always use a condom. This meant that, as has been found previously in the UK and internationally, more men have UAI with regular than with casual partners. Overall, 42.3% of the sample said they had UAI in the last year when asked the direct question. This suggests that almost all the men who had casual UAI had UAI with a regular partner also.

This research suggests something which is worth taking note of: gay men- like straight men- seek stable and lilfe affirming relationships. The notion that the majority of gay men are horn dogs on the make is simply not supported by the facts.

[dsdrane]

The notion that the majority of gay men are horn dogs on the make is simply not supported by the facts.

...with all due respect to Ann Miller, we might still be horn dogs...

...just not with every Tom, Dick or Harry.

:cool::rolleyes:

[scott snedeker]

I think I understand what you're saying, Scotty...but who, exactly, is calling for such an adaptation?

Besides, perhaps, some Log Cabin-ers.... [I kid, because I love.]

:rolleyes:

From many posts on this forum I have come across phrases like " Only if two men are in a monogamous relationship is homosexuality not a sin." So I guess I have become sensitive to a tone that implies this.

Actually I am a little embarassed because only after reading your first post a second time did I see your affirming reference to me. OOP! :eek: Thanks, for that BTW:rolleyes:

[keltic63]

Not that (the other) David doesn't hold you in as high esteem as I do, but it was I who referred affirmingly to you :)

I have always felt and believed and still do that for CHRISTIANS, monogamy (or monoandry) is the moral, God pleasing choice for expressing our sexuality. However, reading what you write about the nature of your circle and the obvious respect and love and caring that you all share with and for one another, I have had to sit back, stroke my beard, nod thoughtfully and say "hmmmm.... perhaps I need to think again"

I continue to believe that the Hebrew concept of "Hesed" is a central and foundational one for Christians and Jews who are trying to discern a faithful understanding of the morality of sexuality within their traditions. "Hesed" is sometimes translated "steadfast love" or "covenant love" It is a love which is forever, and unconditional, and self-sacrificial in nature. It is love as God loves. As a result of my association with you Scotty I am reassessing whether there are more forms that HESED may take than just Monagamy and monoandry.


within that concept of HESED, where does polygamy fall? It seems that all the examples of polygamy in the old testament, including the incidences of kings having concubines, somehow manage to be approved within the covenant of being devoted to 1 person. Is it too much of a stretch to think that a couple can covenant with each other, and either enjoy the intimate pleasure of a friend individually, or even together as a couple?

[keltic63]

that's a really excellent question. Its one that gets talked about quite a bit in the context of the MOM (mixed orientation marriage) community. Can two people have "extracurricular activities" as PART of their covenanted relationship? I don't know the answer, but I can IMAGINE it at least. At the heart of it "covenant Love" is about insuring that no one is dehumanized, objectified, used, abused, or discarded. People and relationships are not disposable. Its an interesting question.


ahhh, I hadn't even considered those issues in a MOM. Is it fair that each individual sacrifice sexual satisfaction because of a covenant made at a time in their lives when they were unaware of all the details of their own orientation?

I agree that it is important to be careful about using, dehumanizing, objectifying, etc. Yet, it seems that concubines were pretty much objects......

[BenL]

within that concept of HESED, where does polygamy fall? It seems that all the examples of polygamy in the old testament, including the incidences of kings having concubines, somehow manage to be approved within the covenant of being devoted to 1 person. Is it too much of a stretch to think that a couple can covenant with each other, and either enjoy the intimate pleasure of a friend individually, or even together as a couple?

I tried to answer Robert's question in the idiom in which he asked it. All the time I was writing it, I was thinking of Ash aka Scotty, who has made a clear case for his loving circle as one of deeply caring relationships.

When Charley and I encountered the world of mxied orientation marriages that were not monogamous but open on one side or another or both, we had to rethink our own views on polyamory. We found that wasn't for us, but we came to respect couples who mutually agreed that within their relationship they would accommodate a different model of faithfulness.

I think faithfulness to the agreement you make is important. That said, is there room for casual sex in the gay community? I think so. It may not be the ideal in human relationships, but as long as no one is being hurt and no one is taking advantage of someone else in a power equation that is out of balance it isn't the worst thing in the world right now. Who am I to judge?

Charley and I are friends with a male couple who have been together for 35-plus years. I don't know if they have been monogamous all those years, nor do I nned to know. It doesn't matter. They're faithful to each other. But even here in MA, they haven't gotten married and don't intend to. One of them, who just turned 80, says in his wry sense of humor, "They can't make an honest man out of me that easily." One of the things I think he's trying to say is that the hetero world had no love for him all these years, so he doesn't see any need to conform to its straight conventions now.

Thanks for bringing this up, Scotty.

[rainbow7]

When I finished reading everything that everyone wrote to Robert, I thought of something I first heard from theologian and ethicist Beverly Wildung Harrison, who said that sexual activity could be (1) procreational
(2) relational or (3) recreational. I think it can also be various combinations of 1, 2, and/or 3....and probably some other adjectives or adverbs I haven't thought of (yet). It seems to me that covenant gets broken (or maybe isn't present to begin with) when there is not shared understanding of what the activity means -- for example when one person understands the sex to imply some relational commitment, and the other partner(s) just thought they were having fun. And of course, the lack of shared understanding means: oops, we forgot to communicate before we got into bed together.....

I think that ALL human sexual activity has some implications for the partners' relationship(s), whether they are recognized before or after the fact.

Polly

[scott snedeker]

Not that (the other) David doesn't hold you in as high esteem as I do, but it was I who referred affirmingly to you :).....

As a result of my association with you Scotty I am reassessing whether there are more forms that HESED may take than just Monagamy and monoandry.

I guess I just can't keep it straight today....ummm was that P.C.?

I believe that there are unlimited ways in which love can appear and that we are just starting to explore that capacity.

I tried to answer Robert's question in the idiom in which he asked it. All the time I was writing it, I was thinking of Ash aka Scotty, who has made a clear case for his loving circle as one of deeply caring relationships.


I think faithfulness to the agreement you make is important.

...Charley and I are friends with a male couple who have been together for 35-plus years. I don't know if they have been monogamous all those years, nor do I nned to know. It doesn't matter. They're faithful to each other. But even here in MA, they haven't gotten married and don't intend to. One of them, who just turned 80, says in his wry sense of humor, "They can't make an honest man out of me that easily." One of the things I think he's trying to say is that the hetero world had no love for him all these years, so he doesn't see any need to conform to its straight conventions now.

Thanks for bringing this up, Scotty.

I think being honest and polyamorous is faithful to one's self and others if that is your nature. Being monoandrous by nature and in living is also faithful. Because the faith, I think comes from within. Living counter to your nature feels hollow to me and not very faithful.

when one person understands the sex to imply some relational commitment, and the other partner(s) just thought they were having fun. And of course, the lack of shared understanding means: oops, we forgot to communicate before we got into bed together.....

I think that ALL human sexual activity has some implications for the partners' relationship(s), whether they are recognized before or after the fact.

Polly

Put another way.....there is no dress rehearsal for life. We live it and experience the manifestation of what we do. What has no value to me is any shame, blame, regret, or self judgement. Just do your best and keep real.

[dsdrane]

From many posts on this forum I have come across phrases like " Only if two men are in a monogamous relationship is homosexuality not a sin." So I guess I have become sensitive to a tone that implies this.

Not only is such a sentiment wrong, there's a stench of Uncle Tom-ishness about it.

I feel sorry for people who think that, if they just "behave" themselves, they'll be accepted.

Tolerated by some, perhaps, but not truly accepted.

[dsdrane]

Charley and I are friends with a male couple who have been together for 35-plus years. I don't know if they have been monogamous all those years, nor do I nned to know. It doesn't matter. They're faithful to each other. But even here in MA, they haven't gotten married and don't intend to. One of them, who just turned 80, says in his wry sense of humor, "They can't make an honest man out of me that easily." One of the things I think he's trying to say is that the hetero world had no love for him all these years, so he doesn't see any need to conform to its straight conventions now.

I totally understand your friend's point of view; many of my friends (especially older ones, but not all) espouse just a view and, until recently, so did I.

But now I'm not so sure I feel like acquiescing to the straight world's tantrum that marriage is solely allowable between between a man and a woman. There's lots of research out there (that others know waaaaay more about than I do) that point to the fact that this may not be historically true.

So let them put that in their pipe and smoke it...hmmph!

:rolleyes:

[antiochian]

I've been struggling with the whole "is gay sex only not sinful in a committed relationship" thing for some time. For that matter, is watching adult movies wrong? Is masturbation wrong???? (from a Christian standpoint) Again, I think we have to make up our own minds.

Of course, there is such a thing as sex addiction--my counselor lent me a book some time ago called "Cruise Control." It was interesting. When things such as cruising or masturbating or whatever control our lives and interfere in other aspects of life (calling in sick to work twice a week to go cruising, one example), they can be unhealthy.

I'd guess that a lot of gay men have some degree of sex addiction (I'm betting a lot of straight men do as well). I know I do. Anyhow, here are my thoughts for what they're worth coming from a somewhat clouded mind. I'm tired, sleep-deprived, just took my German midterm exam........

[dsdrane]

I'm tired, sleep-deprived, just took my German midterm exam........

Geh' ins Bett und schlaf'...sofort!

;)

[Alecto]

I think it's interesting no one has delved into just what exactly sex means for any given individual, and how it might be more or less likely to mean something specific to gay men that's different than what it means for lesbians, or for heteros, or possibly even bisexuals. Because men haven't been sexualized already as a part of an oppression (as opposed to women who have been), sex is a big part of what we're fighting for. And as such, it becomes a big symbol of our victories and our continued struggle. The queer nation manifesto states that "every time we fuck, we win" (pardon the language). Whether or not you believe that, I think it is relevant to note that even simple "hookups" do fit into a larger sociopolitical worldview for many of the individuals involved.

[AdamofEden]

Hi, I'm Adam.

This is also my first post here on this site. Here is a little about myself so you know I'm not some crazy.

I'm 20, and I live in California. I came out when I was 16 to my parents-who are still married-they have been extremely supportive. I signed up for the military when I was 18. I was in the delayed entry program for 3 months-the month after I turned 19-I reported for Marine Copse basic training. A week in I had an emotional breakdown, that lead to my coming out to my Senior Drill Instructor. I was eventually kicked out of the Marine Copse of my own desire for what my records describe as a propensity to commit homosexual acts. I have returned to living with my parents as I had before I left. I am just now starting to straighten my life out and get things moving again(still queer as the day I was born).

I have come to this site because of questions like the one asked here in, I find in my own life. I feel what your feeling about every aspect of being gay sometimes. Here is what I'm finding to be true in my life.

I want to have a relationship preferably with one person who I would like to one day refer to as my husband. I accept that I will probably have sex with several men before I find someone who is right for me, and then when I am in a relationship with that person I will have to answer the questions around having sexual partners outside of that relationship.

Know that their are other Cristian gay men in the same boat as you. As for the question of if it's right to be in a committed relationship and have an outside partners? I don't think all gay men want open relationships. I don't think it's wrong as long as you and your partner have discussed it and agreed to basic conducts such as practicing safe sex(weather is be condoms, or safety words), but above all else that you are not looking outside of your relationship because it is lacking something truly intimate and trusting.

Sadly just like I cannot find a concrete answer for myself without the other person, you too must ask yourself these questions now and when you meet that other person.

[tymejumper]

So, as I understand it you want to know if it's alright to have an open relationship? I think I would wait until I found the person I wanted to share my life with and then talk about it.

I did date a lady once and we did have an open relationship. She had another girl she dated and I also dated around, but we considered ourselves "together" That is until I found out she was not using protection like I was and felt she could not get anything from another lesbian.

Also, when I was married still to my ex-husband(also gay) we had an open arrangement, to stay together for the kids sakes and try to respect each other. That did not work, not because of the openness of our marriage, but because of the fact he became addicted to alcohol and drugs and began abusing me.

I believe two adults can have a happy and healthy relationship that is open if they have rules and stop gaps. Geroge Michaels and his husband do and they say they are happy. It depends alot upon the individuals involved and the rules and commitment.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin to it!:lol::lol::lol:

[antonyh]

As the men know ( more than the women) sex with multiple partners is a staple of gay sex. I have been through it all---the bath houses, cruising, orgies etc. I use to think that this was just the wild side and that most gay men didn't behave this way.
But as I have gotten to know more committed gay couples who are in long term relationships I've discovered that 99% of them PLAY. Most of them do it very openly with their lovers permission, sometimes alone with other men sometimes as a couple engaged in a 3 way.
Are we to accept this as just part of our gay idendity---that gay men naturally want to and do in fact openly engage in sex with lots of other men
and that this is just to be accepted and enjoyed. Or would Christ tell us that we are not to live this way and should be in a monogamous relationship.
Please help me to understand this.

It seems to me that you are caught in the subculture. The subculture includes the bars, bath houses, drugs and the digital bath house (gay.com,etc.). In that closed system much of what you are talking about is generally true. People in this closed system actually believe that gay couples can't be monogamous. People also believe that the subculture is all that there really is. Some get trapped there even in their relationships.

I work for an organization working for the full inclusion of LGBT people in the Methodist Church. I work with people who have been in committed gay and lesbian relationships for 10 years, 25 years. My pastor at the Methodist Church just offered to marry my partner and me which would be a great risk to his ministry.

Have you thought about centering your life in an inclusive Christian or Buddhist community? Start going to meetings, feeding the hungry at the food kitchen, attending small groups, making new friends...

Ya never know...you may find that guy you did not think existed.

Or maybe you could be an INDIVIDUAL and be consistent with what YOU WANT. When you go out to the clubs and meet a guy, give him your phone number instead of going home with him. Make it clear that you want a relationship. Say what you want and you'll get it. Be a prince and you'll find a prince (Yay, Daniel).

[tymejumper]

Are we to accept this as just part of our gay idendity---that gay men naturally want to and do in fact openly engage in sex with lots of other men

I don't think it has much to do with being gay actually.

I was a bartender in a straight bar for 10 years before I became a therapist(paid for my college)I saw countless straight people cheat on their mates. I have observed that in a bar type situation, there is an understood atmosphere that it is alright to cheat on your mate. (I am not talking about having an understood and open relationship, but sneaking behind ones back and taking a lover.) I think it is more noticable in the gay arena because there were, and still are, very few places one can go to meet other gay and lesbian people. The bar is one of the best places to meet other gay people still to this day.

Straight people have many other oppourtunities to meet like people, say church, the store or even work. How many of us are out at church the store or work? Much less the odds of meeting another gay person in these venues. The bar ups our odds of meeting a date.

Also, I have noticed that when my wife and I go dancing at the gay bar, there are as many lesbians as gay men cheating and trying to hookup with anyone and anything. It surprised me when I first came out because I didn't think that lesbians would be as unfaithful as I had thought men were, but yes it's true.

The major difference between lesbians and gay men I noticed is lesbians go around telling each other they are looking for a relationship while they cheat, and gay men just sleep around and expect their mates to cheat.

[scott snedeker]

I want to have a relationship preferably with one person who I would like to one day refer to as my husband. I accept that I will probably have sex with several men before I find someone who is right for me, and then when I am in a relationship with that person I will have to answer the questions around having sexual partners outside of that relationship. .

Adam,

To me this sounds like you are jumping past today and focussing on tomorrow. The sentence highlighted in red makes that sound like an arduous task required to endure before reaching a goal. It would be like wishing you could hurry up eating your Caesar salad, your shrimp appetizer and your filet mignon so that you would be done with them and fnally get to eat the chocolate cheescake!

Why not enjoy each stage of your life as it comes? It was what you were put on this planet to do! Delayed gratification can turn into a miserable empty way to live! :confused:

You may want to rent "The Peaceful Warrior" and then read the book. I think you are ripe for it!

Exploring sex with for the first time with different people is how you can discover what you like and don't like. It is a hell of a lot of fun! So much fun for me that It is the life I choose. My lovers also choose the same life for the same reasons. That's why we are polyamorous lovers. No mongamous (monoandrous) men are included in our circle because if they were, they would no longer be monoandrous.



........... I don't think all gay men want open relationships. I don't think it's wrong as long as ............. you are not looking outside of your relationship because it is lacking something truly intimate and trusting. .

I agree that would mean that you were stuck in joylessness by the fear of the consequences of leaving. A miserable plight indeed. I can't only love one person. That's who i am. I fall in love too easily. Love for one person does not cancel love for another person. And when three people are all in love with each other......It is heaven on earth! :love: :love: :love:


Sadly just like I cannot find a concrete answer for myself without the other person, you too must ask yourself these questions now and when you meet that other person.

Then go out and date. Discover and enjoy. After a while you will start to get an Idea of the answer for yourself. Don't be surprised if that answer changes over the years. It should. Because you are changing and growing all the time! :D
:love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

[AdamofEden]

Adam,

1: To me this sounds like you are jumping past today and focussing on tomorrow. The sentence highlighted in red makes that sound like an arduous task required to endure before reaching a goal. It would be like wishing you could hurry up eating your Caesar salad, your shrimp appetizer and your filet mignon so that you would be done with them and fnally get to eat the chocolate cheescake!


2: Why not enjoy each stage of your life as it comes? It was what you were put on this planet to do! Delayed gratification can turn into a miserable empty way to live! :confused:


3: You may want to rent "The Peaceful Warrior" and then read the book. I think you are ripe for it!


4: Exploring sex with for the first time with different people is how you can discover what you like and don't like. It is a hell of a lot of fun! So much fun for me that It is the life I choose. My lovers also choose the same life for the same reasons. That's why we are polyamorous lovers. No mongamous (monoandrous) men are included in our circle because if they were, they would no longer be monoandrous.


5: I agree that would mean that you were stuck in joylessness by the fear of the consequences of leaving. A miserable plight indeed. I can't only love one person. That's who i am. I fall in love too easily. Love for one person does not cancel love for another person. And when three people are all in love with each other......It is heaven on earth! :love: :love: :love:


6: Then go out and date. Discover and enjoy. After a while you will start to get an Idea of the answer for yourself. Don't be surprised if that answer changes over the years. It should. Because you are changing and growing all the time! :D
:love: :love: :love: :love: :love: :love:


Please Read Dating Fear for my response as I feel it would be hijacking this thread.