Bible bashers

[ladyinred]

I've been studying more and more the course in miracles and as I have read the bible it is in alignment with many of the biblical principles I've read . IJohn says perfect love cast out fear and Jesus said judge not and he literally meant it. Why Is the relinquishment of judgement of others and ourselves so vital and important.

A) Our judgements actually create alot of pain and are actually based on thinking and perceptual errors. I have a cd by Dr Dwayne Dyer which has similarities and one thing that is comforting from both is that God is not demanding nor does he say we should sacrifice ourselves nor does he want us to be submissive and obedient but to follow our inner guidance,Dyer puts it this was God expects nothing of us except to be happy , joyous and peaceful.

One thing struck me is that the course says the holy spirit does not impose an alien will on us. If we are truly in alignment with our higheswt good we will be at peace. Why I study alternative Christianity and others is I am looking for a sane spirituality. God is not here to brow beat us, shame us, his love is always unconditional. Take the verse from John beloved if our hearts condemn us God is greater than our hearts and knows all things beloved if our heart condemns us not we have confidence toward God.The bible brow beaters can say all they want ,yell all they want hollar at you that you are wrong, but you are not here to follow the rules and expectations of others or their screwed up values .

They can insist you are going to hell but hell is not a literal place it is what we see here on earth in the pain and suffering of mankind.Hell is not a literal place and you are not going to get stuck by pitchforks or little demons dancing on your head who will torment you. I have been talking to my pyschologist and showed her all my tapes and books on spirituality .


We were talking about them and she agreed they sounded like they were based on sound principles. Any religion that teaches you that you are inherently sinful and evil and bad is a religion that is based on hostility, fear and condemnation not on love charity peace or joy. Fear is born of this, a sense of not being good. What I am learning is sin is always rooted in the idea of condemnation and fear.


Why does the bible then say be blameless and harmless children without fault among whom you shine as lights in the world amidst a crooked and perverted generation. If you were truly sinful in the first place, how could you possibly be blameless , the belief in sin is firmly rooted in the belief in condemnation and punnishment and is a perceptual distortion, erroneus thought and if you are aware and have looked at it clearly you can see judgement ,shame and the idea of sin is always interconnected,I've actually noted the distortions in my own thinking due to this. and when you see it it is a process of nonsense thinking and not clear cohesive thinking. you may have done things in the past you are not proud of but like the course says regard these as mistakes to be corrected rather than as punnishable.

Paul said he used to persecute Christians but he did so in his ignorance and he had found God's mercy. Condemnation imprisons us binding us to the past, our own forgiveness sets us free.("Only my condemnation injures me ,only my own forgiveness sets free.") (The bible says that if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation ,old things have passed away behold all things have become new.) God has already forgiven you and you are in a state of grace.

Healing occurs when we learn to forgive ourselves and others.We cannot be healed if we hold onto guilt and blame and continue to see value in holding onto it. And we won't be released by continuing to see value in it( Blame ,guilt =Condemnation,judgements) and project this on others. Past fears and judgements about ourselves are actually misperceptions and are continously recycled until we do learn to forgive and it is always progresssive and on an ongoing basis.(Consider these words Jesus said judge not and you will not be judged ,condemn not and you will not be condemned, forgive and be forgiven ,as you give so you will receive.

What is the cost of holding onto blame ,when we see value in it and blame others and ourselves it can cause us to be vindictive and be retalitory and cause us to have thoughts of revenge. We will then experience personal distress and conflict. What does the bible say about love:
I Corinthians 13 gives us a picture of what love looks like. It's patient and kind. It's not jealous, boastful, proud, or rude. It doesn't demand its own way. It's not irritable, and it keeps no record of wrongs. It's not happy about injustice. It rejoices when truth wins out. It never gives up or loses hope, and it endures every circumstance. The love of God was shed abroad in our hearts when we were saved (Romans 5:5). Successful men are lovers. And also refer to again this written above:Why does the bible then say be blameless and harmless children without fault among whom you shine as lights in the world amidst a crooked and perverted generation.

Ok here is the clencher do not judge yourself for judging yourself, this is progressive , it does not mean we can change our thoughts automatically or overnight, it might be helpful just to observe when you are having these thoughts, it only comes with repeated and sustained practice over and over again your thought will not automatically change, remember you are reprogramming your mind to think along these lines.

You might want to buy Gerald Jampolsky's book or tape on Love is letting go of fear and his tape to give is to receive , he may have a book on it. These are not usually stocked in bookstores so you may want to have your bookstore to order them or do a search online on these and see if you can't order them on line, if you think these may be useful to you they teach the above principles and other guidelines and the affirmations which should be repeated over and over again redoing the lessons again and again. I bought the tape love is letting go of fear , because of his comments on it both back and front. Because the mind can be resistent to change and stubborn it does take consistent practice. I also recommend To give is receive, because it is extremely helpful.

That does not necessarily mean we can change others but forgiveness is about letting go of the past .Actually when we are judging others we are projecting onto them our own self judgements, SO forgiveness is actually a gift to ourselves ,whether others change or not. It does release us from the past and it's projection into the future, and we become more centered on this moment, the present ,which is the only time there is. We cannot truly control others anyway.(Also refer to to 2 Corinthians 3;7-18 below and what it says about condemnation and the past ) What is the veil it speaks of?

Paul could be said to have done some truly atrocious things but as the man grew spiritually he changed. I really get sick of the bible bashers that come here to get everyone stirred up .Paul even wrote why do you speak evil of your brothers ,when you judge and criticize another you condemn yourself.Modern psychology calls this projection.When I am still enough to get rid of my own negative thinking I actually will experience clarity of thought and insight.


Fear based religion that is toxic and shaming is not going to help anyone. If it isn't serving you or others get rid of it ,if the church you are going to is teaching you these things shun it at all cost.I will share more with you as I become more aware and can share things. They may think you are going to hell but they probably live in one themselves. Life is too short to believe in ghosts and fairy tales. How can you ever measure up to impossible standards? Robert Burney wrote about homosexuality and said homosexuals were acting in congruence with their true nature .to go against themselves and their own nature would be to go against the natural within them .(Perhaps being in a war within would aptly describe it.You are at odds with yourself.)

They can do all the research they want , and say nay and yay. Research may often reflects a person's biases as in the case of Cameron and Dobson and not objectivity at all, they already made the judgement that homosexuality is a sin and unnatural, of course from their frame of reference and own belief system and interpretation of the bible.Now homosexuals are worthy of condemnation according to their interpretation and deserve to be punnished and bannished from the mainstream population, they are now the outcasts ,the others that don't deserve to be treated with love kindness and respect.They are now to be stripped of their humanity and denied rights.

The laws of separation are enacted here, us versus them, right versus wrong, black and white , good and bad.........Blacks were treated the same way.History repeats itself only now with another face.Who is making these interpretations and decisions and judgements about the lives of other by the way?Who is making these decisions?NOT God but men.Whose value system do they operate from? Are they teaching the Love of Christ or are they demonstrating attack?

Perhaps homosexuals were put on earth to offset the population crisis in earlier times and times now.(LOL Ok speculation here) But let us look at the reality of 6 billion people inhabiting the earth and the fact that many of the earth's resources are being dwindled as there is need for more for more ,unlike some evangelicals say, the earth does not have unlimited resources that can be continually depleted they cannot be replenished if they become too depleted and many species and other natural resources disappear,supply cannot meet demand, many species have come extinct.


There is a real posibility we may as a species become extinct if we do not do anything about the population crisis and supply and demand of resources, otherwise nature will take care of the problem itself with famines, floods and other disasters.Often deserts are the result of man made catrastrophes perhaps too much farming and clearing of the land and droughts and famines take place.I was struck by a documentary about a small fishing village, they had been around for several hundred years.

They had a thriving business because they worked in accordance with natures laws, and would fish during certain times of the year and stop other times to allow the fish population to rebuild and repopulate, they ALWAYS HAD ABUNDANCE.Then a fishing industry came in with all it's technology and wiped out the fish population entirely. The fishing village lost their resources and ability to maintain a living.

They could not rebuild or replenish the supply it was too late it had been wiped out.Ok I'm going off the subject perhaps a little here. But perhaps what I am saying we need to align with our own natural order within, and the natural laws of the universe.The poorest countries usually have the highest population and the most poverty.Why do people maintain that God's will has to do with their family values and getting married and having kids, not that that is wrong.

But we see also people who have kids they can't afford to even clothe or feed because of their belief that birth control is wrong. Religion teaches many different things, but are they truly in accordance with divine laws?How come there are so many sects and variations of religious beliefs that mandate you do this or believe that ,and you will earn your way to paradise, and in the meantime you may live here in a hell of an existance, no worry. paradise is when you die and go to heaven. Heaven is a looooong way off then.It is vital as Jesus said to judge not(In Luke if I remember right it says judge not and ye shall not be judged ,condemn not and ye shall not be condemned .) because as he said it will all come back on you.

The secret is the more you relinquish condemning judgements about yourself and others, the more you can experience peace and happiness in the here and now ,instead of in some distant far away future of never, never land. Biblical quote, stand fast in the liberty of Christ and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.Think about what bondage is.Slavery to our own judgements and fears.

References besides the bible: A Course in Miracles, Love is letting go of fear by Dr Gerald Jampolsky,MD, To give is to receive,by Dr. Gerald Jampolsky,MD. Goodbye to guilt, by Dr.Gerald Jampolsky MD. Dance of the wounded souls,Robert Burney ,Change your thoughts,cd meditation by Dr Wayne Dyer.Other resources, Innerbonding.com by Margaret Paul, Marianne Williamson on self Esteem, Being in the light also by Marriane Willimson,.There is a spiritual solution to Every problem by Dr Wayne Dyer,The Secret,Universal Mind meditations. Joy2ume.com Robert Burney,Choose once again, Selections from a Course in Miracles ,Super learning, Mind expansion subliminal by Kelly Howell.

[ladyinred]

I'm almost in a constant state of meditation. my mind is like the vast resovoir of subconscious and as I become aware of my thoughts I realize there is a great need for me to change my past conditioning .as well as beliefs and perceptions . Many times I am able to make progress and change thoughts sucessfully and feel an experience of myself as something postive and loving.

But I am a work in progress. I can still have negative thoughts about myself and others. You are a work n progress as well. Don't let others sell you short. I've also learned that the mind can also be deceptive and very powerful force for or against self.. Anytime I am not aligned I will experience stress fatigue, self put downs and the other blah blah blah ,incessant rantings of the ego. Pretty pathetic,huh?

I guess I have alot to overcome because of my own past ,upbringing and tendacy to be too much of a perfectionist. which is a pain in the ass literally. When we see ourselves as a work in progress we will know it is to our benefit to change our past beliefs and conditioning.In that way we can experience more peace of mind and less strain in our lives. You can say the mind is wired wrong it literally creates and perpetuates our self image .But that self image can be changed into a more postive confident and self loving image of ourself but it takes practice practice practice practice .


It's like saying a mantra or an affirmation or something over and and over to youself , as you repeat it it becomes a part of your thinking and being. It starts overturn your negative thinking and replaces them with more postive thoughts about yourself. Other peoples beliefs about God are just that ,their own beliefs, Don't let their definitions of God be your own definition. You cannot experience God in unless you are directed within by the intuitive force of love,the stillness within. Noone can define GOD for you. Why does 1John say God is love and he who dwells in love God dwells in him and he in God? There is no fear in love but he who fears has not been made perfect in love because love cast OUT ALL FEAR?

And why have these verses been overlooked by certain evangelicals who put their own interpretations in place saying God is going to damn you to hell? Something to think about. Robert Burney writes the bible in many cases can be a source of wisdom beauty and inspiration but he has also written that the bible contains many verses he feels are distorted and were written by people who were not congruent in their own thinking about the nature of God but were warped in their own thinking.Perhaps they saw God as avenging and punitive because that was a matter of their own thinking and perspective in relationship to the world around them and how they reacted. Hopefully something to think about.

They chose to make God into their own image? To serve to justify their own agenda?To fit into theri perspective on live and the world around them? Why did Jesus portray God in a totally different light in contrast with the old testament?Those who think the bible is infallible cannot see it's incongruencies and contradictions. ANd as far as I know God does not contradict himself in any way shape or FORM..He cannot be wishy washy and decide one day I'll just wipe out the world ,command men to wipe out other tribes and kill off women and children in one breath and then say in another anyone who takes another man's life of him I will require of him of his blood or thou shalt not kill.

How can these be reconciled with the God of love , forgiveness and mercy They can't. God would have to have a split personality.How can old testament verses be reconciled with new testmant verses of forgiveness and redemption they can't. You decide for yourself if you think the bible is infallible..

[ladyinred]

Something of my backround. I was abused as a kid , most of my life lived in fear of other people and a really low self image and spent or have spent most of my life beating myself up, tearing myself down, feeling empty and alone and sad. I came from a very volitile backround ,I was not in a home environment where I felt safe. I was withdrawn and isolated and continued to do so most of my adult life, severly depressed most of the time. I have also been diagnosed as bipolar. I will call that a symtom. Too many underlying issues that need be adressed and dealing with them means I have had to bring them up consciously. Scared is half of it.

You wonder how kids that grow up into these environmnets can florish and thrive alot of times they do not. They don't have the emotional maturity or the support they need in such environments. I grew up feeling unsafe most of my life a sif there was looming danger all around me.They grow up with alot of guilt about the abuse and have alot of issues in dealing with shame.

If anything kids and I do not give a flying flip about what Dobson says about how kids should be treated when he says to crush their spirits, that is actually what is happening to a child within , his spirit is being crushed literally, he may grow up obey all the rules , try to please everyone and fit in and try to get and gain the approval of love of others but he will never feel like he is ok. A million copies of his books have been read by millions of parents who probably want to do the right thing but he is not giving sane or sound advice. A child needs to feel valued safe and loved. When he grows up thinking otherwise he will not feel like he's safe period. Dobson may have his own internal issues.

But here as an adult I am trying to reverse things in my life to obtain some mental balance and sanity. To have some hope of happiness and peace of mind, again conditioning, old tapes, old wounds . Kids don't know how to deal with this growing up they just don't have the information or tools. I have had to acquire mine along with psychotherapy. Spirits don't need to be crushed they need to be liberated from the heap of garbage and negativity that has been dumped on them. Not to say to blame our parents they grew up passing onto the next generation what they learned and were actually wounded themselves. But we live in a society trhat doesn't nurture self love or respect for others.


Many kids are living in homes that are battle fields and were probably like me retreated into a fantasy world or stayed low and became invisible, or scapegoats. I'm not achieving anything particularly great with my life, don't have a degree a steady job, I don't have credentials of a psychologist I've had to learn, still have to learn and give up those old feelings of wanting to die and give up on life.Like I said I make progress ..... For me it has to be a continous process of healing. Sometimes I get sick of having to listen to those old negative voices in my head, reeling onward.

But as long as I keep my mind atuned to my own healing and keep on that track dilligently I will continue to make progress. Hopefully I can and will finally reach a place in me that can put my past behind me and feel like life is worth living.Even if I can feel happy for one instant a smile more, which I do that is making progress. I'm afraid I will probably shun churches unless I can find one that is more interested in people than what they can do for them. I definitely will shun a church that heaps negativity on it's congregation.

Perhaps church isn't my route or a valid support system for me. I've yet to find that. I'm very leery. I've seen some of them in action. I would also highly advise people here to be leery as well if your church is doing more to bring you down than help you develop your character and help you in your own growth shun it. I have to be careful for my own sake. You should do the same in terms of preserving your mental and emotional health too. Not to say there aren't good churches or evangelicals who don't truly inspire people. I would not put them all in the same category.But from my son's own experience at school it seems churches in this area are teaching kids the wrong thing, he came home and said that the kids were talking about Christianity and God and how if you don't believe in Christ you are on your way to hell, he is very confused and said he hated God. Now how to turn that around for him.......

[ladyinred]

The reason why I have shared all this because by applying principles based on a course in Miracles and my other programs have actually improved my mental health, My out look on life as a gradual process and I am not as anxious and withdrawn as I have used to be. So to say a positive spiritual belief system works, it absolutely works,so the key to mental health is if it has a positive affect on you, you know it is working.As far a for religious fundamentalism.....:sick: I will say this being diagnosed as bipolar I was also diagnosed with shizoaffective behavior. I had had some pretty severe psychotic episodes in the past, doing these principles is helping me to to become able to function better, think better, an ongoing process. I am not as severly impaired as I was.

I'm more coherent mentally and I'm not under the constant anxiety I was. What made me sick, alot of it has to do with the belief system I outlined above. Though having no religious backround ,just the thought system of fear and guilt permeated my thinking.letting go of self judgements and self blame or condemning judgements about myself that I deserved to be punnished among other things made me ill.Being able to let go of self hate that was associated with abuse has helped me. Again an ongoing process.So if anything I will say that the courses principles have helped me tremendously. All things are possible.

I can definitely say that the teachings that fundamentalism have that say you are sinful and a shameful human being unworthy of love will create a similar thinking process.( Now tell this to someone who has past issues with abuse and shame and guilt ,self hatred and add a fundamentalist touch to it, My God!!!! What effect would it have on a person who may have no religious backround but is trying to find God? I will say past exeperiences with a church with me(and proselyzing by people who gave me brochures and tried to indoctrinate me at a young age with fear) after being told by the church certain things and by friends who went there did cause me to go a psychotic state where I felt guilty about what I wore, watching tv, was I doing the right thing etc... Perhaps it was unintentional but somehow I felt affected by it) Don't you think this dangerous to people with fragile mental health already?

Though people may not have the problems I have , they will still live paralyzed lives in fear thinking God is out to get them and strike them dead, or that if they make the wrong move they will end up in hell, fearbased religion will never work , read the old testament and all the violence and bloodshed and mayhem will attest to that.

These weren't people who were peace loving people, they were constantly at war with other tribes and races, alot of bloodshed ,mayhem and violence.Just look at our society today and what's on tv.Alot of bloodshed and other stuff. That we need a higher power to restore us to sanity is an understatement .

Look at Paul as an example, because of his religious training and backround he was a pretty cruel man and admitted to persecuting Christians mecilessly. He went on to to become the most notable Disciple that lived.

It does say how lives can be changed and that all miracles can happen. Jesus actually was teaching healing principles.In the principles of not judging and forgiveness. I will say I do still see a psychiatrist and a psychologist and take medication as well. Right now that is just part of what I need to do. I'm still dealing with this on an ongoing basis.

And I do still need the support of psychotherapy and medications.My mind has been pretty scrambled and my psychologist has helped me alot in putting things in perspective she has also supported my use of meditation and other tools and has not discouraged me from doing this.I may even need ongoing psychotherapy. AND medication,I can't say how long.
I don't see it as a sign of weakness to need help. My psychologist is very qualified.She has helped alot of children as well. The tragedy is when people think they can do this all alone or don't need help or get the wrong kind of help. What would've happened if Andrea Yates had gotten psychotherapy before all that happened?My psychiatrist said the same thing about the guy at V tech, she said the mother was trying to have his demons cast out. A mother ends up killing her baby after postpartum because her church discouraged psychotherapy and we all have heard about Brooke Shields , at least she had the sense to get help)(Read the following about Andrea Yates, It will shock you:http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm
) She was also attracted by a form of fundamentalism (Which is why I say Flee their churches with your life, turn off their sermons, do not partcipate in fellowship with their kind, yes flee for your own mental sanity, do not compromise it) I will also add this about ex-gay minstries , and those who have been disillusioned by it and gotten out , they are suffering from PTSD after being in these ministries, which is a trauma in itself, they are not crazy. I repeat to those who have been disillusioned again you are NOT crazy.

When I have my "freak out" periods though I tend to go somewhere quiet and meditate, preferably my room. Not that I isolate but too much stimulus in my environment, tv, noise, and other can bombard me and really wreak havoc on me. I cannot stand the constant bombardment of incessant noise. Perhaps that is why they say we need to get away from the extraneous noise and busyness of the external world or environment and have a place where we can calm down and bring our mind back in focus.quieting the mind also helps us get rid of the reels of old emotions and programming and conditioning we grew up with.

My mind use to constantly race and that has slowed down quite a bit, I was also constantly doing, busy, compulsive, I would spend 3 hours at the spa exercising come home clean house(the house was huge and took me two hours just to clean the kitchen and do other chores and wonder why I would burn out taking care of kids and everything. I was MANIC. I did not know how to slow down or pace myself.Compulsive talker ,worrier..... My postings may be wordy , but in reality I'm not a big talker ,I've slowed down considerably and tend to be quieter.Before would incessantly nonstop talking.LOL Quiet is nice I don't feel the need to talk all the time.I think that is pretty much in line with my true nature,it's much more at ease.

Right now ,I'm taking things easy and giving myself a hiatus period from dealing with too much responsibility .Perhaps taking a year to help me in my recovery so I don't slip back into the old patterns and allowing myself to get stronger and more in balance, that might sound selfish but I need that time for myself.I'm doing this for me.

************* A simple meditation I do over and over again is one I got off the tape to give is to receive by Dr Gerald Jampolsky it goes like this:" In my mind are thoughts that can hurt me or help me ,I am constantly choosing the contents of my mind since no one else can make this choice for me,I can choose to let go of everything but my Loving thoughts, today I am determined that all my thoughts be free of fear , guilt or condemnation whether of myself or others by repeating I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt"Then repeat I can elect to change all thoughts that hurt as much as possible.I have had to do different meditations like this and others repetitively and often. ******************

They work but not instantaneously, you may find you have thoughts of fear or other negative thoughts come up , which is is why the repetition on an ongoing basis is needed.I would recommend his tapes to give is to receive and love is letting go of fear. They are simple to do, but you have to be consistent and ongoing in the practice.Because the course in miracles is often wordy and I find it difficult to do certain lessons because they can be lengthy and hard for me to remember I do simple repetitions with less wording,off Jampolsky's tape and some of the simpler ones in the course, that are easier for me to remember.

Jampolsky actually uses the principles from the course but has simplified the language and offers explanations for the terminology in the course and ideas in more simple everyday language which works for me.Shorter on word and easier to remember. My memory is still not that great and I just cannot focus on the longer wording of the course.Dyer does the tao repetitions with short phrases to say after doing the tao repetition but it is also similar to the courses principles. I guess the repetition helps to still the mind and focus on the concepts. Robert Burney has extensive info on his site which gives extensive information and he will go into depth on what is wrong with traditional religion (Fundamentalism) And why it has not worked in the higher interests of mankind.

He also says our society is highly dysfunctional as well. He will go into depth as to why our society needs to change. We look at the issues of war, poverty, child abuse, spousal abuse, violence assault, religious and spiritual abuse(self judgment is self abuse) and he goes into various reasons as to why these things occur in our society and that the traditonal family system which is often highly dysfuctional because people have a dyfunctional belief system and relationship with themselves.

He also says that religious fundamentalism in many cases is toxic and inspires violence and fear in many people. (Think about the homosexual being assaulted by some religious fantic or the hate speech spewing from many peoples mouths about gay people. "Gay people are destroying our families , gay people are pedophiles, gay people are demented and evil, the list goes on.Gay people should be stripped of their rights, bullied in school , shamed and ostracized, and "punnished" by passing legislation that will deny them them the basic opportunities as straight people, who are good and upright( as gay people are unworthy and bad and deserve to be condemned and punnished and treated with contempt) (black and white, good and bad ,right and wrong polarities)

I'm not saying people don't have the right to their own beliefs, disagreeing with a person's lifestyle is one thing ,advocating to do harm to them is another.

The religious leaders who are in the pulpits who think they are moral by condemning and judging have it all wrong.Advocating hate, is not love.People can have the idea that this is supposed to be the way things are, but they themselves are living in fear and not in love. I remember the quote I found in the encyclopedia one time",Fear is the parent of cruelty." Because fear condemns. Why I bring up mental health issues and spirituality is the bible does say to teach sound doctrine.Mel brings up religion gone bad and the fundies, and yes it can be fatally dangerous to people who feel hopeless already. He is not exxagerating.

Sorry my posts are so long. But I hope you will find them helpful." The unquiet mind is becoming quieter."...............Hmmmm maybe I should write a book on my life......naaaaaaah. I practically wrote one here on this forum,LOL

[ladyinred]

Romans *8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be the spirit of God dwells in you , anyone who has not the spirit of Christ is not in him. There is therefore no condemnation to those who walk according to the spirit and not the flesh, to be carnally minded is death to be spiritually minded is life and peace....

1 John 4.... Beloved ,if our heart condemns us God is greater than our heart and knows all things, if our heart condemns us not we have confidence toward God and do those things which are pleasing in his sight.

Jude,1:24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—

Titus 3:49 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.:

Titus 1:3This testimony is true. For this reason (AR)reprove them (AS)severely so that they may be (AT)sound in the faith,

14not paying attention to Jewish (AU)myths and (AV)commandments of men who (AW)turn away from the truth.

15(AX)To the pure, all things are pure; but (AY)to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their (AZ)mind and their conscience are defiled.(Jewish myths and commandments of men? IS this possibly speaking of the old testament?)

Jude (new living version) And now all glory to God who is able to keep you from stumbling and who will bring you into his glorious presence innocent of sin and with great joy........

Titus 3(New living version)3:6 He generously poured out his spirit on us because of what Jesus Christ our savior did for us He declared us not guilty because of his great kindness..

1Timothy for God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity but of power and of love, and self discipline

Colossians2:16 so let no one condemn you for what you eat or drink or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths For these rules are only shadows of of the real thing Christ.Don't let anyone condemn you by insisting on self denial.

Colossians 1:27....... For this is the secret: Christ lives in you, and this is your assurance that you will share in his glory.


Perhaps the bible should be seens as more symbolic speaking in metaphors , symbols and allegory to be relevant and understood. If Christ is in you , This makes you one with him and God.The idea of separation is based on the idea of sin and guilt. Let's examine another verse; 1: John 3:5 And you know that when Jesus came to take away our sins for there was no sin in him, So if we continue to live in him we won't sin either...

John 3:3 But we do know that when he comes we will be like him for we see him as he really is And all who believe this will keep themselves pure just as Christ himself is pure.

James5:11 Warning about judging others. Don't speak evil against each other my dear brothers and sisiters, If you criticize each other or condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God's law. But you are not the judge to decide whether the law is right or wrong...

1 John:4:7 Dear friends, let us continue to love one another for love is of God.Anyone who loves is born of God and knows God But anyone who does not love does not know God for God is LOVE
Romans 8:13 on loving neighbor as self and being the fulfillment of God's law.
1 Corinthians1:8 He will keep you strong right up to the end,and he will keep you free of blame on the great day when our Lord Jesus Christ turns. "
I can't remember what book ,Matthew,Luke or John.Where Jesus says a disciple is not above his teacher , but everyone who becomes perfectly trained will become like his teacher."

Glory of the New Covenant
One of my favorites:2 Corinthians 3:7-21 (New King James Version)

Glory of the New Covenant 2 Corinthians3:

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 John4:16 God is love and all who live in love live in God and God lives in them. Now the course is congruent with the bible ,with writings above and others ,there are many biblical passages(though there are those not at all ) That are congruent and in alignment with its' teachings. But the bible does seem to make contradictory statements as well. The apostles were not perfect men as they grew spiritually they changed .


The right would insist that living in Christ and that he wasn't the only son of God would be Blasphemous, But in Romans it states it as a fact ,"As many as are lead by the spirit these are the sons (children) of God" Or that Christ is in us.The bible says it in the above verses. Proving that Marriane Williamson and Gerald Jampolsky aren't some flaked out new age gurus.. like they claim. They would insist you are just some miserable sinner with only hope in the afterlife and heaven, and that is what you are, accept it as fact . And their beliefs are they based in reality??What are these?"

And glory is in the Armegeddon, blood destruction and death and they will be the only ones redeemed have the"true message" of GOD and will be taken up to heaven in the rapture.( God ,Vengeful wrathful out for your blood and destruction of course) Let's help fulfill biblical prophesy by helping to bring on the events and ensure armegeddon.


Ensure their souls salvation of course (and not others who consider themselves Christian, like the methodist, and others and even moderate Christians who will of course go to hell, all the other religions are going where they will go as well) Pretty self centered , and self righteous? All about us vs them ? And screw the environment we can do anything we darned well please with little concern for future consequences,we are going to be raptured anyway, let's hope and help bring about a scourched earth... it will ensure the coming of the Lord and hasten his return to take us away..

Does any of this actually sound a bit like psychosis to you or remind you of a nightmare? What is scary here anyway, they are so sure of their righteousness and everyone's elses evil and unworthiness. I saw a commercial on a series on a serial killer, just another drama ...what struck me was he said he killed people who deserved to die and aren't I just good?( as if he were convinced of the righteousness and justification of his actions. Scary huh?

I don't want to seem preachy when I use biblical quotes ,I use them often to illustrate a point and often to show how they can be congruent with alternative forms of christianity, and other teachings. And just because they may vary somewhat in form and idea doesn't mean they are flaked out. And also to comapre to the religious rights claims on religious grounds

I will add this is there any hope for those in the right,Probably not , unless they turn to God and ask forgiveness and turn from their previous ways.And make amends toward those whom they have sought to hurt.
I guess I have to examine things in detail, but the more I do this it seems like nothing the right claims about homosexuality or religion or spirituality holds much water. I guess in my own way I wanted answers for myself in terms of sorting out what makes sense and doesn't in terms of religion and spirituality.

There is no doubt in my mind that too many people in LGBT community have had many obstacles to face, but in light of the bible which I feel is continously used to beat Gays and lesbains over the head, I realize this does great harm and does great harm for honest sincere people who are looking for answers and God and end up at the mercy of fundamentalism,personally in my opinion the churches need to do alot better in understanding humanity and the problems better, we have a dysfunctional society and dysfunctional religion that is causing alot of heartache and disillusionment out there.

The mentality that tears people down instead of building them up is too prevalent in our society today and what the hell is this? It is common place for people to laugh at "faggot jokes or ones like" bomb bomb Iran." It's like a spirit of meaness has overtaking our country and it's socially acceptable .

Ok and here I come out on this forum about my ongoing struggle with my illness and past,how does that make me look in the eyes of other people I can't honestly say, I have kept too many secrets too many years, That is a lonely place to be, but I am like you and want to be treated like anyone else and not as someone to shun at all cost I haven't bitten anyone on this forum yet,I like you have been affected by negative religion even though not being brought up in a especially religious home and I am stiil a human being regardless of my disability,and like you all to be known and understood and accepted for who I am.That is not a demand. It's just me being honest.

I hope I am not scaring people off by revealing this ,I know the reaction in many people's mind may be to associate bipolar with whacko , often just reacting to what they've heard read. To be truthful I would be whacko if I didn't do what I am doing now in trying to help myself. But not all bipolars are affected in the same way and it depends I think upon the severity of the disorder. (From what I've read most people with mental problems are not violent but you do have exceptions as well)

I guess in pointing out biblical scripture I may come across as preachy, but the reason why I do this,is the religious right does exactly the same with clobbering LGBT people over the head with the few references they have. By the same token the scripture which I point out above seems to convey the message of love ,mercy and justice and doesn't seem to condone violent and hateful acts toward others. Among what is accorded to the works of the flesh are these: Galations 5:19-21 (hatred, contentions, jealousies,
outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
envy)
So we get pretty much the idea that the religious right in it's glib rhetoric doesn't really support biblical values, such as love does no harm to a neighbor, not to bear false witness against the neighbor, to strive to live in peace with others(as much as depends on you said Paul but it seems to me that GLBT people still has to stand up for their rights and often the case is people don't always want to live in a peaceful co-existence with you,so to me this statement means within your means or ability to do) or love thy neighbor as thyself.

[ladyinred]

I'd like others comments on these writings , if they have helped you and I hope they do, let me know.If not tell me why you think they aren't

[ladyinred]

http://www.helium.com/tm/335991/christian-ethos-vocabulary-always
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/kiefer1.html
http://wellspringretreat.org/resources/index.php?item=1&page=22
http://members.aol.com/grailpath/sin.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_belief
http://www.helium.com/tm/162221/religion-tools-teaches-findreligion
http://www.religioustolerance.org/relhateov.htm
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/rrr/how.to.fight.the.right.txt
An especially good one:
http://www.theosophical.org/publications/questmagazine/marapr07/menahem/index.php

" Peace cannot be found in the past or future but only in this present moment,The past is over and the future is yet to be, this instant is the only time there is"

For he is our peace, who has made the two into one, and by whom the middle wall of division has been broken down",Ephesians 2:14
Colossians 3:15:Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew 28:11-30)

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[ladyinred]

But I think most of us are sick of this crap being laid on us. by people who feel it is their job and duty to save us from our unnatural desires. I write about my own experiences with my own life and yes there is still alot of the old chattering going on in my mind that can be negative and demeaning.What I notice when I do this is love gets turned around ,It's there but then when I get down on myself IT Disappears

.I actually watch my mind ,the movement of my thoughts. I do meditations on an ongoing basis. And I will say old negative tapes, old reels of stinking thinking do come back, and I have to deal with it on an ongoing basis.I can't shut it off, run from it ,I have to look at it directly in the eye.There are the dark nights of the soul when I am going through stormy emotions. Not sure what to think. I' ve never learned to be honest with myself until recently and yes I can often deceive myself in trying to believe the lies, the illusions.I'm not sure why this happens. All I can say old programming. old conditioning, old sorry states of mind.Why I have I tried so hard to fit into this mess?

Daniel stated we all have egos.True it is actually the ego that gets us turned around and distracted by our own negative thinking. What I learned from different webistes like innerbonding , The course in miracles and other selp help methods, is the ego actually shrouds the love portion of our mind. It's like a self contradiction. it goes against the very nature of love.

So when you get those yukk thoughts or feelings know you are merely off track in your thinking and there is another way to look at things.I've seen it it by observing it and it is very true that the ego is the direct opposite of love and I also see that is in opposition with the love in me. It will try to do it's darndest to make love go away.

I observe my thoughts all the time I've seen this through personal experience. That is why I'm saying eveything we think that is in opposition to love is the ego trying to make itself real in place of it. That's why it is an illusion of self.The programmed mind ,the things we learned through the conditioning of our past ,our religious training, families of orgins is LYING to us and we have the power to change this through diligence and discipline. Being aware of it gives us the power to change it. We don't have to be boxed in by these beliefs and faulty programming.... and there is no reason to be afraid of it. I am not a robot I am free and I am determined to see things differently... LOL

ELIMINATE THIS WORD FROM YOUR VOCABULARY RIGHT NOW, "IMPOSSIBLE" Because there is nothing you cannot do, there is a place in you where nothing is "impossible". Think on this ,"I can do ALL THINGS through Christ who strengtens me." "And with God all things are possible." "As a man thinketh so he is."

[ladyinred]

My purpose is not to offend. Many people have struggled with the bible ,are truly trying to do the right thing, but from what I have also read many people here have been wounded if they belonged to a fundamentalist church, told that if they do such and such they are going to hell and frightened, scared and intimidated by this.Would it make sense that God would damn you to eternity, would it make sense that he would do this to people? Where is then the hope of redemption. Where then is peace of mind trust security ,and faith in God then?Where then is the belief that God loves you and wants whats best for you and that he is benevolent? Where then is forgiveness and hope.

There are many people who take those like James Dobson and others in the religious right seriously and they have launched an all out attack on gays, Gay kids are being terrorized,shunned and bullied in schools many times .I'm not here to prove anything about or to these leaders, but if I did have the opportunity to confront them. I would caution them to consider their own words carefully and what they are sowing, it has nothing to do with unity but divisiveness. What we sow we will reap accordingly. They are not teaching the true Christian values that Jesus taught but the opposite of it.

It has nothing to do with Jesus but with hatred. Perhaps they really believe they are righteous, perhaps they just believe what has been passed onto them by their own religious backround and training and families and churches growing up , I think that is matter of who is interpreting the bible and for what for purposes and justifications,and what they intend to achieve by that. Anyone can interpret the bible to justify their own prejudices and fear can't they? Anyone can interpret the bible for their own purposes and agenda as well.
I will however say that blaming Gays for all the social ills and problems will not make them go away or solve the problems we have in society, it doesn't mean people won't divorce have abortions, familial problems, stress on the jobs ,layoffs,kids in gangs or premaritial sex , rape ,domestic abuse, broken lives etc.I do believe there is a need for ministries and outreach but not the way they go about it, I think.Let's be honest and without deception about this. Violence is also a major problem in our society. No one has been beyond deception or deceit including myself , until we look at it and get honest with ourselves,but people can continue deluding themselves they so choose to do so. It will not resolve the problems of our society to single out a certain group to scapegoat nor will denying gays their rights protect marriages or solve the other problems. perhaps being a little repetitive here,LOL .....

It has nothing to do with God but their own interpetations of the bible. I am not saying all ministries and churches are bad. I've found some good ones online, or that all evangelicals are misleading people there are those who don't and really do help people.

But from what I've read about even mainstream religions and churches that had not aligned themselves with the religious right is the right is trying to infiltrate them to convince them of their message(often covertly) . But this does not mean that there aren't ministers, preachers and churches and people of the church that aren't sincere and aren't serving God. If I said that that would be wrong and misleading.(I would hope they are not in the minority but I don't know, but I do know from reading that not all of them are not the same)

But sharing my own experiences above, I don't think I have been deceptive, I just don't openly share these things with everyone I meet , but I have been honest about the problems I have faced with old interpretations of the bible , my own experience with some churches and people who try to proselytize and how I've been affected by this and my own past beliefs about God which were negative, I even considered being an agnostic or atheist.And even would get angry at times reading the bible, and about God in certain contexts,The idea of punnishment made me extremely angry. ( read revelation, that one got me)

I have read stories about sincere,devout gay Christians who were in pain because of what their church taught them and fundamentalism,Often for years, until they finally got away from that ,some find other churches and have found hope with them.Some have had to get psychotherapy, many like those who joined the ex gay minstries and who became disillusioned and distraught are looking for ways to heal from this. Gays have been blamed for everything under the sun. 9/11(as if they had control over this event and what happened) Breaking up marriages and divorces and on the list goes.

How does Joyce and her partner in Minnsota have any impact on the maritial problems and fights between Dan an Lisa a married couple in Iowa. How Did Dave and his partner cause the divorce between Joan and Carl who are married and live 50 miles down town from them.Doesn't it seem laughable? We all have responsibility for our own actions , self responsibility isn't about assigning blame , it is taking responsibilty for our own part in problems that we may need to change and have to work on and our own personal issues and feelings in other words. Here's something I found helpful:http://www.innerbonding.com/index.lasso?did=content&content.article=422

I think Soul Force has done alot to help people in the gay community and have been courageous in standing up to the tyranny of the right. You may not change their minds but I think there will be people who do get the message. People may not always agree with Mel White or Soulforce and there will be people who tend to discredit him or say that he's wrong. (That there is nothing wrong with the state of affairs but him in otherwords) That is unfortunate but it doesn't mean that soulforce doesn't make a difference for many people.

Note to moderators:
This has been newly edited I will not edit other posts right now ,so if they seem repetitive, it is because I have often updated my posts.. without thinking about previous posts or later ones and how I may need to edit them later to be more cohesive Right now I am not going to worry about other posts that have preceded or come after previous ones,if moderators would want to modify language delete or edit certain posts that is fine or make them more congruent (I will say that the Course in miracles .Margaret Paul and others I have mentioned do frequently repeat themselves (And yes very frequently )and the ideas and concepts ( If you have ever read or heard the text, of the course , you will know it is very repetitive)perhaps so people will have it stick in their mind. Perhaps that me it helps stick in the mind. You may disagree with me and it is your right to do so. It may not be your bag or cup of tea. I only try to posts what I feel is helpful to others. They have the right not to read my posts if they so choose to do so

The bible is often repetitive, especially in the old testament about a God of war and vengence, although there are biblical passages in the old testament like kindness to foreigners and not to oppress people or become one yourself. How many point to again as God as boss hoss ready to strike you dead, if you make the wrong move? Come to think of it the religious right constantly repeats themselves about gays. I will say the mind will repeat itself until we repetitively practice changing through through meditation or whatever sources or help. History will repeat it self unless we learn from it and move foward. People make history, because your belief system does determine your reality about yourself as well,and the way you react and treat others and yourself .

Why Do I say our past is often the reason we have problems, because the past as we have interpreted exist only in our mind, we were programmed to think the way we do influenced by many things. The past has to be let go of ,it is an ongoing process but each minute of the day can provide us with new opportunities to release the past(In terms of past fears and judgments)(Call it rebirth and regeneration) Living in the past or preoccupied with past thoughts often keeps us from living in the present and enjoying our lives,I will say the words we speak can also have an impact on our lives,take the right for example the more they talk about gays and how they perceive them and bash them, they are intensifying and reinforcing the hatred for gays within, have they become more violent in their speech as a result of this You are what you speak , focus on and think upon. You become all of this

[ladyinred]

http://www.lifepositive.com/Mind/psychology/phobia/mind-miseries.asp








" Humankind has not woven the web of life .We are but one thread within it .Whatever we do to the web we do to ourselves .All things are bound together ,all things connect." Chief Seattle