People who don't understand aren't bad people

[Progo35]

Yesterday I had a conversation with someone who I truly look up to about recent instances of gay high school couples being recognized as "best couples" in thier senior yearbook. This individual felt that this was "disgusting," and went on to say that "It's not normal," and that "If they want to F each other than do it in private, but don't go and announce it to everyone. Now being gay is the cool thing to do and everyone is going to be gay...and I think that gay people raise gay kids and are more likely to be pedophiles." This person never uses the F word, period, and hates it when I do it out of frustration, so this person must have been really frustrated....

But, this person is one of the most kind, gentle, considerate, loving people that I know. I think that if this person truly knew what LGBT people were suffering and weren't constantly exposed to what the media puts out there, this person would have a much better understanding of how gay parents raise their kids, regard sexuality in general, etc. I wasn't sure how to respond except to refute what this person was saying gently but firmly. It was sad. But, I guess I'm saying: have compassion for those who don't understand LGBT issues. They are often good people otherwise.

[Alecto]

Some people are willing to be educated. I try to give people that chance. It shouldn't be my job to educate them, but when I run into people in my personal life, I'm usually in a place where I can be patient enough to at least start. But some people want to hold onto their hate, their percieved superiority, their whatever. If someone's not willing to ask themselves why they believe what they believe and go from there, then I don't have time for them, and yes, I'm going to say that they've got some major moral shortcomings. (which isn't to say that I don't, but if someone calls me on them, I'm usually willing to at least examine that).

I don't identify as Christian anymore, but this does call to mind "whatever you do to the least of my people". Like...there's a tv show I like to watch that introduces you to this character who's all kinds of morally reprehensible. And then they try to make a 180 on it by showing you how much he loves his family and what he'll do for them, but it just left me saying "Ok, so what? Almost everyone loves their family and the friends they choose; that shouldn't be the litmus for morality." Am I making any sense, or just going all rambly?

[iowan woman]

Progo,


Your friend is ill-informed. Lots of adults are too; even well-educated adults can write or say the most ignorant things. It is beyond frustrating, I know.

It is hard to be patient with people who, as you say, might not be fully cognizant of the pain they are causing. You have to believe that if most people really knew they would behave or write or speak differently.

That is what keeps hope alive for me, Progo: the belief that people really want to be better than they act. But there is a line; when a person is expressing violence and is not wiling to hear you...people can be very stubborn about holding onto fear, and for some reason, that is at the core of homophobia: fear.
I hope your friend moves past that. What he is expressing now might be part of learning to know what he thinks. Sometimes the only way I learn anything (even as an adult in my 40's) is to say something stupid and when I am responded to as such (as someone talking or writing stupid) I try to learn from it. At least your responded and your response was firm and, as you described it, gentle.

Maybe your friend will learn from you. I admire you so much for trying.

myra

[iowan woman]

Alecto, you wrote:

<<<"Ok, so what? Almost everyone loves their family and the friends they choose; that shouldn't be the litmus for morality." Am I making any sense, or just going all rambly?>>>


I know what you mean. It does not matter how nice someone is out of one side of their mouth if out of the other side they are destructive and are not willing to look at that and make it different.

[Pablo Rafael]

I am convinced that the majority of those who think homosexuality is wrong think so just because it has been conditioned into them. We are all products of our culture.

That is why I think it is so important for gay people to set a good example. We need to show others that gay people are kind, loving, decent, respectful. That is also why I think it is important for gays to get out of the closet. It is easy to be against someTHING when you don't know much about it. It is much harder to be against someONE you know who is loving.

Pablo

[keltic63]

I am convinced that the majority of those who think homosexuality is wrong think so just because it has been conditioned into them. We are all products of our culture.

That is why I think it is so important for gay people to set a good example. We need to show others that gay people are kind, loving, decent, respectful. That is also why I think it is important for gays to get out of the closet. It is easy to be against someTHING when you don't know much about it. It is much harder to be against someONE you know who is loving.

Pablo

why do we never hear a discussion about how straight people need to set a good example for the gays? divorce, domestic abuse, swinging clubs, drug abuse, motorcycle gangs, mardi gras, Vegas, etc. the list goes on and on. ANYTHING that can be said of gay people (negative and positive) can also be said of straight people. Is it possible to hold gay folk to a higher standard? Is it reasonable to do so?

[Dumbledore]

why do we never hear a discussion about how straight people need to set a good example for the gays? divorce, domestic abuse, swinging clubs, drug abuse, motorcycle gangs, mardi gras, Vegas, etc. the list goes on and on. ANYTHING that can be said of gay people (negative and positive) can also be said of straight people. Is it possible to hold gay folk to a higher standard? Is it reasonable to do so?

I think we would advance our cause more by saying our community is the same as the straight community with both the good and the bad. We're all in this together.

[Progo35]

An interesting thought about the gay community setting a good example. In my own life, I went through a period where, despite the fact that I was aware of the prejudice against LD kids and people, I felt that many of my LD peers were making our situation worse by how they acted. In a way, I think that this was true to some extent.

Nevertheless, as Keltic points out in regard to straight vs. LGBT people, there were nondisabled students who did the exact same things, esp. in high school, where I knew of an LD person and one non LD honors student who were doing drugs. Yet, it was always the LD and lower leveled (classes) students who were described by teachers and other students as doing such things.

I've always tried to set a good example by my actions...although, I think it depends on the person's situation and emotional/psychological state. When I started suffering from severe clinical depression, it became harder for me to be a "model" student/person on the outside. And, this time helped me to see how important it is for all students, regardless of their behavior, had their rights. That's why I personally am very diconcerted by some of the latest changes in special education law, which extend less protection to such students.

In the end, I think that as Pablo Rafael points out, good behavior helps one's cause, and as Keltic says, good behavior is not a prerequisite for having the same rights, which I think all three of us agree on.

[RedneckDyke]

If I was talking to someone and they were upset about a gay kid couple winning cutest couple in some high school, my reponse to this person would be;
" Why is it such a big deal to you who gets cutest couple in some high school?"
I didn't even care about it when I was in my own high school. Proms and homecoming and all that junk is not real life.

[u-dog]

If I was talking to someone and they were upset about a gay kid couple winning cutest couple in some high school, my reponse to this person would be;
" Why is it such a big deal to you who gets cutest couple in some high school?"
I didn't even care about it when I was in my own high school. Proms and homecoming and all that junk is not real life.


What exactly does that mean? of course homecoming and prom are real life! They are not ALL THERE IS to real life. But they are very real. If you removed every frivilous, insignificant, not profoundly important moment from your "real life" you'd end up with maybe about a month of "real life".

When people are systematically excluded from Prom, homecoming, dating, their wedding day, what have you... life is diminished for them and for all of us.

Your question to that person should be "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU THAT YOU WANT TO EXCLUDE A WHOLE CATAGORY OF KIDS FROM "REAL LIFE"??

[keltic63]

Yesterday I had a conversation with someone who I truly look up to about recent instances of gay high school couples being recognized as "best couples" in thier senior yearbook. This individual felt that this was "disgusting," and went on to say that "It's not normal," and that "If they want to F each other than do it in private, but don't go and announce it to everyone. Now being gay is the cool thing to do and everyone is going to be gay...and I think that gay people raise gay kids and are more likely to be pedophiles." This person never uses the F word, period, and hates it when I do it out of frustration, so this person must have been really frustrated....

But, this person is one of the most kind, gentle, considerate, loving people that I know. I think that if this person truly knew what LGBT people were suffering and weren't constantly exposed to what the media puts out there, this person would have a much better understanding of how gay parents raise their kids, regard sexuality in general, etc. I wasn't sure how to respond except to refute what this person was saying gently but firmly. It was sad. But, I guess I'm saying: have compassion for those who don't understand LGBT issues. They are often good people otherwise.

OK, I've been thinking about this for a while today. I've responded once, but I think I need to examine this part some, and think a bit more.
People who don't understand are in one category, but people who then go on to say hateful things and spew misinformation about lgbt people are in another.
I'm wrestling with the idea that "They are often good people otherwise." Should someone so good be able to say the kinds of things this person was saying?
Of course, our soulforce training tells us that these may indeed be good people who are misinformed. I'm really having a tough time with this today.

It feels like I'm talking to Mary Todd: "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, How was the play?"

[Pablo Rafael]

why do we never hear a discussion about how straight people need to set a good example for the gays? Is it possible to hold gay folk to a higher standard? Is it reasonable to do so?

I see your point here, Steve. I guess when it comes to setting a good example one can only speak for oneself. I think that gays should set a good example because that is my group, and I can be a part of the goodness that flows from the group. I also think that Christians should also set a good example for the same reasons. Also as a maligned minority we are the ones under the microscope. As for straight people setting a good example, I can't do anything about that. I only can answer for my own actions.

People who don't understand are in one category, but people who then go on to say hateful things and spew misinformation about lgbt people are in another.

Indeed there is a marked difference between the two groups. In my experience most Christians who think homosexuality is wrong are really people who mean the best and will respond in love to the situation. I have met, however, those who seek to perpetuate hatred and twist the truth. Though they may be in the same congregation their actions are totally different.

Two people come to mind: Philip Yancey and D, James Kennedy. Both are (were) Christian men who think homosexuality is against the Bible. Philip Yancey promotes dealing with people in love and realizing that people may have differing beliefs; each person's beliefs deserve respect.
D. James Kennedy used anti-gay propoganda to help build up his organization; he delibertely demonized a group of people with false accusations. These two people are not in the same camp. One needs education; the other needs to be confronted.

[Progo35]

I agree with Pablo on this. This particular person...well...I know that this person would not go and make up things about gay people to make a point about something. I think that this person was responding more to what this person sees as the "gay agenda" than to gay people and, unfortunately, projected that agenda unto the issue we were discussing, namely, two girls who were named the best couple in their high school yearbook. Just to clarify, I brought the issue up, the other person was responding to me saying that I disagreed with Bill O'Reilly's position on this particular matter, which was that their peers nominated them to rebel against authority more than anything else and that it was not in the teenagers' best interests to come out to everyone around them. This person agreed with Bill O'Reilly's take on the situation, but then went on to justify his/her opinion with negative stereotypes about LGBT individuals and relationships.

[Daniel]

This individual felt that this was "disgusting," and went on to say that "It's not normal," and that "If they want to F each other than do it in private, but don't go and announce it to everyone. Now being gay is the cool thing to do and everyone is going to be gay...and I think that gay people raise gay kids and are more likely to be pedophiles." This person never uses the F word, period, and hates it when I do it out of frustration, so this person must have been really frustrated....

But, this person is one of the most kind, gentle, considerate, loving people that I know.

The mere appearance of a gay couple in a high school year book is reduced to F'ing?

Hello! Anybody notice the Ick Factor being invoked, or is it just me? Why is that straight couples are thought of as having relationships, but gay couples are thought of as F'ing?

Your friend is seriously challenged in the emotional intelligence department.

Suggested reading....

Created Equal: Why Gay Rights Matters to America

The second chapter, The Ick Factor: Homosexuality, Citizenship, and the Constitution should prove to be enlightening reading to the person in question.

The equation of homsexuality with sickness, and heterosexuality with health, persists in polular culture, which finds "evidence" of this equation in homosexual behavior without taking into account the psychological and moral effects on homosexual behavior of society's punitive and repressive treatment. Gay men, of instance, are characterized as sexually "promiscuous" (the term left undefined) and incapable of forming emotionally intimate unions, while gay unions are simultaneously derided as pathetic imitations of heterosexual marriage. Thus, in popular culture, gay men who are sexually active supply evidence of one kind of sickeness, while gay men who enter into unions with each other supply evidence of another.

And if this doesn't inform the read, Chapter Three may be helpful....

How Prejudice Works.

[antiochian]

I've often wondered at how the mention of gay rights can turn otherwise sane and decent people into drooling, venom-spewing looney-toons. I agree that bigotry is very much learned from family and definitely from peers. I agree that not all heterosexists are bad, but then again when they speak against and vote against hate crimes bills which are meant to protect human lives (after all, even someone whose lifestyle you may not like still deserves the protection of the law from violence), and I'm thinking these guys really could care less if my name makes the headlines as the latest murder by a gay-basher.

As regards to the "ick" factor, what gives? So straight folks cannot stand the thought of a man wanting to do any number of given sex acts with another man (or women with women). I prefer Mellow Yellow, but I'm not going to say someone is sick for drinking Mountain Dew (which I think is gross), and I'm not going to go on a rampage about how drinking Mountain Dew is against nature! Secondly, it's not all about sex, as someone already mentioned--it's about emotional attachment, companionship, friendship, and caring. Thirdly, why do so many straight men think that every gay guy finds them irresistable and thus is scared to death of being jumped? My, my, how highly some think of themselves.

[Progo35]

That's the thing...this person does have emotional intelligence: this person is constantly giving to others by driving people to their doctors' appointments, volunteering at church, donating to food panties, etc.

The issue of whether good people can say hateful things makes me think of a couple of examples.

A few year ago I was enrolled in a year long honors program that only accepted 14 people. After learning that I had a learning disorder, the teacher leading the class said, "I'm concerned about how your accommodations affect the image of the program. The provost has charged me with elevating the academic standards of the college. I don't want to say, 'Meghan, you have to leave the program,' but I will if I feel that the image of the program is threatened." He also said this to an advisor of mine who went to him in order to chat about this instructor could best help me in his class. Otherwise, this person was highly moral. Nevertheless, things like this continued to come up all year long. Inevitably, he gave me a B plus in the second semester of the course when I had 5 As and 2 Bs, which made no sense, and when I asked him for clarification, he "just gave" me the A and said that I would have to "suffer the consequences" of my action. What action? Asking for clarification on a grade?? He said that he gave me a B plus because it was consistent with his understanding of Christian scholasticism. He could not even articulate any reason for why I got the two Bs that I did, even to provide information on how I could improve my performance in those areas for other classes. He kept saying that "you did wonderfully," and things like that. Well, if that's so, then what gives?

So, my point is that people who are otherwise not bigoted will, in fact, do things that oppress others, just like my teacher did by giving me an arbitrary grade that didn't make any sense because of my learning disorder. He didn't want his program's image to be compromised. But, he is NOT a bad person. So, people are very complicated and can hold virulent prejudices...even when they are otherwise good.

[sailaway58]

I'm not a much better person now then I was 25 years ago when most of you would have hated me. I've said shitty thing about lots of things, people, ideas.
I happened to grow out of some of my prejudiced views. Who is really good anyway? You tell Christians they must love and accept you, as we should, but what responsibility do we have to love those that hate us or persecute us?
Instead of pointing fingers is it possible to accept others with their faults? If they can't openly discuss issues like this kick the dust off you feet and move on.
Who are we to judge who is good, God knows hearts, not us. Make a judgment about being around someone and if it is worth it to you, but why try to judge who is good?

[RedneckDyke]

[QUOTE=u-dog;46449]What exactly does that mean? of course homecoming and prom are real life! They are not ALL THERE IS to real life. But they are very real. If you removed every frivilous, insignificant, not profoundly important moment from your "real life" you'd end up with maybe about a month of "real life".

When people are systematically excluded from Prom, homecoming, dating, their wedding day, what have you... life is diminished for them and for all of us.

Your question to that person should be "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU THAT YOU WANT TO EXCLUDE A WHOLE CATAGORY OF KIDS FROM "REAL LIFE"??[/QUO

I am from a really small town. Our prom was held in the VFW hall. The only people who went were the "beautiful people" jocks, cheerleaders, ect. The geeks (like me) stayed home with thier novels and the rednecks got drunk in a pasture. So no, in my own high school experience, prom or homecoming or what-have-you was not the life-changing all-encompassing be-all-and-end-all that is portrayed in teenage romance movies. Yes I was in the school, but no, it was not "real life" to me. REal life to me was chomping at the bit to get out of that town.

That said, for some of those kids in that one school, whoever got "cutest couple" or whatever was probably a big deal.

What I meant in my previous post was that there's no reason for it to be a big deal to some adult hundreds of miles of miles away who saw it on the TV news or the internet or whatever. Why do they care about some high school kids social event with people they don't even know? What difference does it make to them?

[sailaway58]

Why do they care about some high school kids social event with people they don't even know? What difference does it make to them?
The same difference it makes to us that think of it as a good thing.

[Zerbie]

The thread has a title which misleads us into talking about good/bad judgments - as Tim points out.

Plenty of very "good" white people objected to having to tolerate black people sitting at the next table in a restaurant in the 1950s. Plenty of "good" people today say that gay couples are "disgusting."

Either way, I don't have to surround myself by people with attitudes like this in my personal and social lives. I find it gravely insulting and degrading to say such things, and hearing them from someone else makes me sufficiently uncomfortable as to not want to be around that person more than basic courtesy makes necessary.

[Zerbie]

Hello! Anybody notice the Ick Factor being invoked, or is it just me? Why is that straight couples are thought of as having relationships, but gay couples are thought of as F'ing?

All the time.


Created Equal: Why Gay Rights Matters to America

How Prejudice Works.

This is one of my favorite books! They really articulate the entire problem so well it's amazing. I strongly, loudly, second the suggestion.

Is it still in print? My mother threw my copy of this book in the trash and I'm borrowing a copy now from the campus LGBT group, but the thing is, I want to keep it for reference. And grrr, I shouldn't have to pay for it again! I already bought it once - not my fault that mom threw it out. :mad:

[u-dog]

[QUOTE=u-dog;46449]What exactly does that mean? of course homecoming and prom are real life! They are not ALL THERE IS to real life. But they are very real. If you removed every frivilous, insignificant, not profoundly important moment from your "real life" you'd end up with maybe about a month of "real life".

When people are systematically excluded from Prom, homecoming, dating, their wedding day, what have you... life is diminished for them and for all of us.

Your question to that person should be "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU THAT YOU WANT TO EXCLUDE A WHOLE CATAGORY OF KIDS FROM "REAL LIFE"??[/QUO

I am from a really small town. Our prom was held in the VFW hall. The only people who went were the "beautiful people" jocks, cheerleaders, ect. The geeks (like me) stayed home with thier novels and the rednecks got drunk in a pasture. So no, in my own high school experience, prom or homecoming or what-have-you was not the life-changing all-encompassing be-all-and-end-all that is portrayed in teenage romance movies. Yes I was in the school, but no, it was not "real life" to me. REal life to me was chomping at the bit to get out of that town.

That said, for some of those kids in that one school, whoever got "cutest couple" or whatever was probably a big deal.

What I meant in my previous post was that there's no reason for it to be a big deal to some adult hundreds of miles of miles away who saw it on the TV news or the internet or whatever. Why do they care about some high school kids social event with people they don't even know? What difference does it make to them?


I get you. I went to a huge high school and prom was a rather more egalitarian event. Even the geeks (like me) went and had a good time. In a large school the cliques break down into even smaller catagories. "Geek" was different from "Math nerds" was different from "band and choir geeks". band and choir geeks (of which I was one) had higher status than math nerds and there was even some overlap with the "low end beautiful people"
:lol: Everybody but the "stoners" and the "greasers" went to the prom and had a good time. If I never hear "stairway to heaven" again it will be too soon!

I agree with you though ... why can't people just let kids have fun and bask in the limelight for a few minutes. If their classmates want to recognize a gay couple as the "cutest couple" there must be a reason. The simplest explanation is that they are, in fact, the cutest. Good for them! Good for all of us who are less cute but also gay!

[Progo35]

"The thread has a title which misleads us into talking about good/bad judgments - as Tim points out.

Plenty of very "good" white people objected to having to tolerate black people sitting at the next table in a restaurant in the 1950s. Plenty of "good" people today say that gay couples are "disgusting."

Either way, I don't have to surround myself by people with attitudes like this in my personal and social lives. I find it gravely insulting and degrading to say such things, and hearing them from someone else makes me sufficiently uncomfortable as to not want to be around that person more than basic courtesy makes necessary."


I disagree that the thread is misleading, as the basic difference between good and bad people is what I'm getting at here. First of all, as Pablo pointed out, some people are under educated, others are hate mongering, and the two are not the same thing. Secondly, it is my opinion that people who say hateful things often say them because of a lack of education or cultural conditioning.

Secondly, I don't believe in dissolving friendships because of something someone says about someone else, unless their attitude is impacting the other person's life or my life on a grand scale. But, it's up to each individual to make a determination regarding how someone's comments are affecting them and how to deal with the situation.

As you point out Zerbie, there were otherwise good people who believed that white and black equality was wrong during the 1960s. But, when we demonize everyone who holds prejudiced beliefs, we choose to exclude ourselves from the possibility of having prejudice about other things, which, in turn, leads to more prejudice.

So, I don't feel the title of this thread or the idea behind it are misleading at all, it just doesn't confer with your particular worldview: which seems to be that people who have homophobic tendencies are bad, period, unworthy of forgiveness from their closest friends in the midst of their transgression.

[Zerbie]

I am editing this entire post because something about Progo's earlier response triggered such a rage in me I went off the deep end in response. Probably because the slow miserable death of that friendship I referenced was such a prolonged heartbreak, it mystifies me that anyone would respond with a negative moral judgment against me ("unforgiving????!") for being unable to listen to hateful, even genocidal, talk on a regular basis, such that I made a very painful choice to slowly break those ties. Well, and she was simultaneously making choices that broke those ties, too.

Flying off the deep end at Progo, however, won't help anything.

My feeling after reading Progo's response was that basic human decency and compassion needed a strong defense against what Progo said. But that is not true. Decency and compassion (and sensitivity to negativity, to cruelty in one's environment) require no defense. They speak for themselves. Flying off the handle at Progo will only deepen an argument, and what could would that do? None I can think of, though it would serve to just make me and Progo angry.

I do not know about "good" and "bad" judgments of entire persons, but I do know about hurt, insult, and degradation, enough to know I want no part of it, then or now. I know that it hurts me to be around someone who treats my friends that way. That I do not want to become like that myself. That sometimes, the best of friends grow irreconcilably apart with time. It has nothing to do with forgiving or not forgiving. It has to do with choices. I am only on this earth for a short time. How do I want to spend the short time I am here?

[Progo35]

Zerbie...

Deducing from your statements that you believe certain things can, in fact, be construed as insulting...so I'm sorry for that in that respect. Nevertheless, I don't feel that it is possible for everyone to be accurate in their assumptions regarding what other people say. The only things for each individual to go on are what each person says on this forum. We cannot "read" each other's facial expressions, tone of voice, or anything else that might indicate from whence their words and opinions come.

Given that fact, I'm surprised that you find my comments to be as offensive as you do. I was only responding to what you wrote. To be fair, you are making the assumption that in addition to construing your comments in a certain way, I think that you, Zerbie, are an unforgiving person. I have no way of knowing how often your friend said such things, whether or not she was surprised by your sudden decrease in association, or whether she asked for the opportunity to make up with you. Did you give her many chances, or just one, after hearing her statements? I have no clue. If she wasn't hurt by the sudden loss of your friendship, made the comments when you repeatedly asked her to stop, and behaved badly in front of your other friend on a regular basis, than that's another story.

Yes, in my opinion, dropping a friend who does not choose to be droppd on the basis of cruel or insensitive comments about someone else, unless they are made repeatedly over a period of time and come with degradation of yourself for not holding the same opinion, is unforgiveness. When someone does something over and over when you have asked them to stop or is hideously cruel to someone by usurping that person's rights or well being, then it is time to wipe the dust off one's feet and move on. Maybe this was a continued thing, maybe it wasn't. Based on the information you supplied, your choice in this particular instance is not something that I support. But our discussions on this forum and in other places do not comprise our identities as individuals, which is what I was mulling over when I started this thread. So, sorry, I wasn't trying to be offensive, I just disagree with you on this one (I think).

[Progo35]

Zerbie..


I actually just re-read your first post. I'm not sure how I missed this, but for whatever reason I thought that you were referring to one conversation, not a repeated pattern of diatribe as you describe it. It sounds like this topic came up repeatedly between th two of you and that you tried to make her stop saying such things around you before you ended the relationship. In that case, I'd say that such an action does not constitute unforgiveness, as sometimes th most loving thing we can do with the options open to us is to give that person his or her space and not continue a relationship that is causing mutual degradation.


I'm sorry to here about how hurtful this was for you. I truly feel for you because I had a very, very close friend for twenty years who I continue to love dearly-who behaved treacherously towards me, basically because she has no backbone and really was "brainwashed" by her manipulative, controlling boyfriend into doing whatever he told her to do, including jepoardizing my physical safety when he was making abusive comments about me in the car and I asked to use her cell phone to get another ride home. She wouldn't let me use it and called the police when I refused to get back into their car at a local supermarket. It was awful. This person was someone who I had a mutual "sister" relationship with. We had been friends for so long that we considered ourselves related. As the relationship continued, I began to understand that she wanted me to be her friend but only if she could treat me however she saw fit when it suited her. When she said that there was "no room" for me in her wedding party after she had asked me to be a bridesmaid, that was my final straw. It wasn't the wedding, it was th way she'd been treating me for a year and a half. This person was a part of my childhood and losing her was like losing a family member.

I have another friend who, while not betraying me in the same way, simply won't (or can't?) talk to me, ever because he moved away. This person was one of my closest mentors and I really miss him. It hurts like crazy when close friends are lost, and, now that I understand more about th situation you described, I feel very differently and hope that you will understand that I didn't intend to be insensitive towards what is a very real heartache.

[Daniel]

This is one of my favorite books! They really articulate the entire problem so well it's amazing. I strongly, loudly, second the suggestion.

Is it still in print? My mother threw my copy of this book in the trash and I'm borrowing a copy now from the campus LGBT group, but the thing is, I want to keep it for reference. And grrr, I shouldn't have to pay for it again! I already bought it once - not my fault that mom threw it out. :mad:

If you go to www.Abebooks.com you will be able to find a copy for as little as a dollar- no kidding. I just checked. I've gotten a fair amount of books this way and have yet to encounter a problem.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=created+equal&x=0&y=0

[Zerbie]

If you go to www.Abebooks.com you will be able to find a copy for as little as a dollar- no kidding. I just checked. I've gotten a fair amount of books this way and have yet to encounter a problem.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=created+equal&x=0&y=0

Is this a set-up where you pay an individual seller directly and wait for them to mail the book? Or if I click to purchase that, does it work like, say, Amazon where you pay the company and then the co ships the purchase?

[Daniel]

Is this a set-up where you pay an individual seller directly and wait for them to mail the book? Or if I click to purchase that, does it work like, say, Amazon where you pay the company and then the co ships the purchase?

The seller will send it to you directly.

You've pointed out why I don't use Amazon for used books. The mark-up is ridiculous. Same for Barnes & Noble.

Abebooks is a good outfit in my opinion. I have around 50 books on my shelves ordered through them, from all over the world: Australia, England, Germany etc. And very inexpensively too. And if they don't have what you want, you can create a 'want'. They will let you know when they have a copy. I like them a lot.

[tymejumper]

I am convinced that the majority of those who think homosexuality is wrong think so just because it has been conditioned into them. We are all products of our culture.


I have a coworker who I consider a friend and he hounded me for awhile to tell him if I was gay. Well, I finally did and he ws pretty shocked. He is very religious and pious, but I made it clear that I had not changed in the 5 years he had known me, only that he now knew I was a lesbian. He had even met my partner before and liked her very much.

He was a bit odd around me at first then he finally asked if he could ask me questions about being gay. I told him that it would be fine and I tried to answer truthfully to him. Sometimes, the questions were crude and rude but I told him so and he apoligized to me. He said "You are the first lesbian that I have known, much less been friends with and I am very curious, sorry" He also said "I now know that you are just like me and that your relationship is the same as a straight person" Its very cute because he will not call my partner by name in public, and referes to her as a 'him' in public becuase he is aware that others would discriminate.

He has become a better and more intimate friend since then and yes it took education and indulging his curiosty by answering questions, sometimes kinda private ones even for him to finally make the connection that peoples relationships are the same. My wife disagrees on this but I feel that we need to educate and be willing to answer questions about ourselves so others can see we are like them. She feels that no one has any right to ask questions and that is that.

I know people can be curious and such and once you are open, you show them that you are not afraid or embarassed so that helps sometimes.

[Zerbie]

I have a coworker who I consider a friend and he hounded me for awhile to tell him if I was gay. Well, I finally did and he ws pretty shocked. He is very religious and pious, but I made it clear that I had not changed in the 5 years he had known me, only that he now knew I was a lesbian. He had even met my partner before and liked her very much.

He was a bit odd around me at first then he finally asked if he could ask me questions about being gay. I told him that it would be fine and I tried to answer truthfully to him. Sometimes, the questions were crude and rude but I told him so and he apoligized to me. He said "You are the first lesbian that I have known, much less been friends with and I am very curious, sorry" He also said "I now know that you are just like me and that your relationship is the same as a straight person" Its very cute because he will not call my partner by name in public, and referes to her as a 'him' in public becuase he is aware that others would discriminate.

He has become a better and more intimate friend since then and yes it took education and indulging his curiosty by answering questions, sometimes kinda private ones even for him to finally make the connection that peoples relationships are the same. My wife disagrees on this but I feel that we need to educate and be willing to answer questions about ourselves so others can see we are like them. She feels that no one has any right to ask questions and that is that.

I know people can be curious and such and once you are open, you show them that you are not afraid or embarassed so that helps sometimes.

That's pretty cool. Personally, I wouldn't like the gender pronoun switch re: your partner, but the rest is cool. You are teaching him boundaries, and he is "getting it" in the process of asking questions, being told when he's crossing a line, and understanding that he would probably feel the same way about intimate questions posed about his relationship. Run-on sentence, sorry. :p

I came out 3D the other day for the first time in, probably close to 2 years. I usually let people assume I"m straight without offering more info.

But I was chatting with a friendly acquaintance I've known superficially for 4.5 years when I mentioned gay rights activism, and he said to me "Well, YOU'RE obviously not gay. You could never be, obviously!" So I said, "actually - :p I'm pretty "middle of the road" on that point, and I told him I had dated women as well as men when I was single.

After the astonishment and nearly dropping over onto the floor stopped, it took him several minutes and some incredible obvious-to-me questions before he could "get it." He kept asking why I would choose a woman or a man and how I 'decided.' So I explained it to him, which in my case, goes according to who I happen to respond to and like being around. After a couple minutes he was relating it to his own crushes and dating history, and we was "getting it." Amazing that it would even be a question, I think.

[Alecto]

I'm trying to decide whether or not this deserves its own thread, but I'm really curious about exploring the "responsibility to educate" vs. our own right to simply exist without having to defend and explain ourselves.

Personally, if there's someone who genuinely wants to "get it", I'm usually all about being patient with them (or at least trying), but sometimes I'm just really fed up with people and don't want to do that right now. And I do heartily think that I shouldn't have to do that, and I get REALLY upset when people who don't get it start telling me what I should do, and why I should answer all their (insulting) questions that I've heard a million times before.

[Zerbie]

I'm trying to decide whether or not this deserves its own thread, but I'm really curious about exploring the "responsibility to educate" vs. our own right to simply exist without having to defend and explain ourselves.

Personally, if there's someone who genuinely wants to "get it", I'm usually all about being patient with them (or at least trying), but sometimes I'm just really fed up with people and don't want to do that right now. And I do heartily think that I shouldn't have to do that, and I get REALLY upset when people who don't get it start telling me what I should do, and why I should answer all their (insulting) questions that I've heard a million times before.

Yes, own thread. Start it!

In short: you SHOULDN"T have to take those conversations on, you are not "responsible" to do so, but when/if you're feeling patient and up to it, it can be very helpful. But you certainly aren't obligated.

[paul]

Hey gang,

I missed this one and am jumping in late...perhaps I can get in on the groung floor is Alecto decides to start a new thread.

Alecto, I to do not identify as Christian, and it's not because I was mistreated by Christians as a gay guy.

I see two lines of approach in this thread, to attempt education or not. Just to add my 2 cents...from a Christian standpoint I would have chosen the effort of education not because I saw something in the individual that I thought qualified them to receive, rather I'd have been motivated by my belief in God. "Love believes all things..." I'd have spoken with a conscience towards God, for God's sake. Not because of a redeeming quality in the person, but rather believing that redemption is something God does or might do...no guarantees, that's the purview of faith and hope...but not faith in hope in people.

[Alecto]

New thread (http://www.soulforce.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12) ill-phrased though it may be.

As it stands, I don't identify as Christian either. I don't tend to base my morality on any faith-worldview as such, but rather on the impact my actions have on other people, and the impact other people's actions have on me.