What do you go to church for?

[Zerbie]

Those of you who go to churches: why? Serious, basic question. What do you go for? What do you get from going? What is it for?

[Progo35]

Hmmm...

Well, I have to admit, Zerbie, I have not been a regular church goer since age 17, when the music and youth programs at my church fell apart and left me without sufficient spiritual resources. I go to church when I am invited or when I'm participating in an event, but otherwise I consider the environment at Gordon College to be like one big church and worship on my own.

But, when I have gone to church or been in churches were I've felt really comfortable, I'd say that I go for the following reasons:

1) Spritiual support: People who also idenify as Christians and therefore understand specifically Christian issues regarding doctrine or the application thereof

2) Emotional support: the integration of emotional well being with an acknowledgement of God's presence in our lives

3) Solace: If you're lucky enough to find a truly loving church, a place where you can go to the priest or an older, wiser person and cry on his/her shoulder

4) Cultural similarities: A place to go to functions and social events for young people without being the only one there wearing conservative clothing (although this is certainly not the case in some churches, nor are churches exclusive in this respect), other people who enjoy listening to christian pop music, have gone on mission trips, etc.

5) Music: Personally, I've found that churches are often great places to make beautiful music with others for free. And, this gives one the opportunity to use one's talent in the worship of God.


Just some thougths...

[antiochian]

Although I've been very vocal about my religious doubts, I still do attend worship, though not every Sunday.

1. For me, it's the nagging inner need to connect to something bigger than myself.

2. For a feeling of connectedness and continuity with the faithful of centuries past--martyrs, confessors, monastics, people I've read about who have impressed or touched me by their faith and kindness, ordinary people like myself who were seekers (as am I). I feel not only united to those of that church in the worship act, but there's a deeper feeling of connection to all people of all times and places.

3. Mental tranquility, a sense of peace. One of the most beautiful hymns of my church's liturgy is "Let us lay aside all the cares of this life, that we may receive the King of all." That line is repeated numerous times, slowly and with emotion, and it has brought tears to my eyes more than once. Beauty in worship, both visual and auditory, as well as the smells and so forth (I love incense), are so important to me. I like to have my whole body engaged in worship, which includes kissing things or bowing or whatever, and even smells can have that effect of creating a sense of awe.

4. Church is a good way to meet people, make friendships, and socialize. I remember the feeling of satisfaction I got from being active in church, like I was receiving tenfold in blessings from what time I put in. It goes back to that whole idea of being a part of something bigger. One could arguably do "church" at home, or anywhere... sitting alone on the beach meditating may fill the need that others seek to have met at church. But there's something about engaging in a communal act of worship that I like, although private spirtual practices are also important.

[u-dog]

Easy Answer:

I don't get paid if I don't show up! :lol:


Real Answer:

Worshipping and praising and thanking God is what I was created to do. it is the primary purpose of my human life.

the Westminster Shorter Catechism (written in 16 something or other) asks:

What is the Chief end of Man (i.e. purpose of humanity)?

and answers (I love this answer!) :

to glorify God and enjoy him forever


Of course I can and do glorify God when I'm not in church worshipping, but worship is the "hub of the wheel" all other acts of worship (doing justice, loving kindness, walking humbly with God, visiting the prisoners, feeding the hungry, befriending the lonely) are all outgrowths of liturgy (which means "the work of the people") and worship.

The things I GET from worshipping (good feelings, renewed focus and energy, guidance, sense of closeness to God, etc) are all real but they are not the REASON I worship. They are merely byproducts experienced by a creature doing what he was created to do.

[sailaway58]

I go to church to serve. I go early to help set up, (we are meeting in a community center), I play in the band, my wife and daughter help in the children's area. Every three months it is my turn to haul one of the trailers.
The people I hang out with aren't there. I helped begin the church and fellowship was one result until I came out as affirming and let the pastors know I didn't believe being Gay was a sin. I don't have fellowship in church anymore. At least not real connection. I have more meaningful connection here on a freaking website in one morning than I do in a month of church attendance.
Most of the time I feel I worship by serving.
A friend of mine once wrote "Worship don't mean to serve it means to kiss"
For me to worship Christ like that I prefer to be alone.
The main reason I continue to go is we are effectively reaching out to people in need. Gay activism is not my only interest and seeing someone find faith and begin to better there life because of it still excites me.
Sadly my homosexual affirmation will stay outside the church and eventually separate me from our church all together.

[Zerbie]

The people I hang out with aren't there. I helped begin the church and fellowship was one result until I came out as affirming and let the pastors know I didn't believe being Gay was a sin. I don't have fellowship in church anymore. At least not real connection. I have more meaningful connection here on a freaking website in one morning than I do in a month of church attendance.

Sadly my homosexual affirmation will stay outside the church and eventually separate me from our church all together.

Tim, that's really sad. :(:( I can't imagine having that sort of reaction from a large part of my social group, it was heartbreaking enough when it came from one person.

[Zerbie]

I'm glad you found it an excellent question. I was a little concerned that it might be a, not so good, question.

Remember, I have never gone to church (shall we count thrice dragged to Mass by Catholic grandparents, one visit to a Presbyterian church at age 12 to see what the fuss was about, and one more visit to a UCC service 2 years ago for the same reason?)




Real Answer:

Worshipping and praising and thanking God is what I was created to do. it is the primary purpose of my human life.

the Westminster Shorter Catechism (written in 16 something or other) asks:



and answers (I love this answer!) :




Of course I can and do glorify God when I'm not in church worshipping, but worship is the "hub of the wheel" all other acts of worship (doing justice, loving kindness, walking humbly with God, visiting the prisoners, feeding the hungry, befriending the lonely) are all outgrowths of liturgy (which means "the work of the people") and worship.

Can you break this down and spell it out more?
Why does any of this get connected to a church?

[u-dog]

Can you break this down and spell it out more?
Why does any of this get connected to a church?


Yes I can.

1. I believe that all worship will, in time, degrade into self-worship (putting oneself in the place of God) This is the TRUE meaning of original sin and it is the most common iteration of sin in the Old and New Testaments. It's called idolatry. One of the ways to resist the tendency to self-worship is to gather with other Christians and hold each other accountable and to remind each other to put God (as revealed in the life and death of Jesus) in the center of life. This is not by any means 100% effective but its better than nothing.

2. Organized liturgy (whether traditional or contemporary, formal or informal, catholic or protestant) has truths about the nature of God embedded in it that remind us who it is that created us and what it is that she requires of us. by worshipping regularly I internalize those truths and make them a part of who I am when I am NOT worshipping with other people in church.

3. Worship can take place anywhere at anytime with anyone or by yourself. IN the woods, behind the wheel, by the sink washing dishes, on the golf course. but without regular corporate worship with others in the church it will devolve into self worship eventually. Corporate worship is the "hub" all the other manifestations of worship and service are connected to it and draw strength, focus, inspiration, guidance, and integrity from it. Corporate worship is the "anchor" that keeps all other manifestations of worship/praise/service from drifting off onto the rocks.


All of the above are the "ideal" . Worship can also be pedantic, self-serving, boring, pointless, and arrogant.

Does this help ??

[Dumbledore]

Easy Answer:

I don't get paid if I don't show up! :lol:



Are you the pastor of a church? I'm interested in knowing more about your ministry.

[pnggrad79]

Zerbie,
I go to church because something inside me longs for that word from God. Something inside me longs to lift my hands in worship to Him and longs to hear from Him. I literally crave that communion and love the fellowship of believers. Sadly, when a straight church shuts the door on gay believers, we are left without many choices of places to go to worship. That is the place my wife and I are stuck at now.
We have two choices. We can go to a church that is spiritually dead, but welcomes the glbt community, or we can go to a spiritually alive church that is an hour from where we live, or a third choice (which is really no choice at all) we can go back into the closet and go to a straight church, where I can't be who I am. Uh no!!!
So, like I said we are stuck, and frankly I don't know what to do. :confused::(

[u-dog]

Are you the pastor of a church? I'm interested in knowing more about your ministry.

NOthing much to tell really. PM me if you want.

[Zerbie]

Zerbie,
I go to church because something inside me longs for that word from God. Something inside me longs to lift my hands in worship to Him and longs to hear from Him. I literally crave that communion and love the fellowship of believers. Sadly, when a straight church shuts the door on gay believers, we are left without many choices of places to go to worship. That is the place my wife and I are stuck at now.
We have two choices. We can go to a church that is spiritually dead, but welcomes the glbt community, or we can go to a spiritually alive church that is an hour from where we live, or a third choice (which is really no choice at all) we can go back into the closet and go to a straight church, where I can't be who I am. Uh no!!!
So, like I said we are stuck, and frankly I don't know what to do. :confused::(

Geez, PNG that sounds awful.
:(

Have you checked out EVERY church within reasonable traveling distance? It sounds like you have a very particular style and atmosphere that you like, that the gay affirming churches in your area do not have. Unless there may be one you haven't found so far?

Oh hey - I just remembered another time I visited a church. It was in Houston about 10 years ago. I was friends for a while with some really wonderful girls my own age and they were churchgoers - they went to a fairly large "gay" church in Houston, someplace not too far from Montrose. I think it was called an MCC. I went with them early one morning and had a pleasant time. But not striking enough to entice me to return - after all, 8am on a weekend? Nahh. :lol:

[Zerbie]

So, how important is the social aspect? Is it a major part of motivating people to go?

[u-dog]

So, how important is the social aspect? Is it a major part of motivating people to go?

Normally, I would say that the social aspect isn't that important for me... but this morning I went to church feeling kind of depressed and discouraged but as soon as people started to arrive I started to really perk up. I like these people very much and being with them seems to allow me access to my happy place even when I am feeling depressed. I'm going to miss them when my time there is finished. sigh. I left church feeling much better than when I arrived.

[Zerbie]

Normally, I would say that the social aspect isn't that important for me... but this morning I went to church feeling kind of depressed and discouraged but as soon as people started to arrive I started to really perk up. I like these people very much and being with them seems to allow me access to my happy place even when I am feeling depressed. I'm going to miss them when my time there is finished. sigh. I left church feeling much better than when I arrived.

Oh that's good. You are wonderful person and it makes me sad to think of you being depressed and suffering.:( I am glad that you have companionship to make you all better when those feelings descend.
:love::love::love:

[lisa]

it's nice to read everyones reasons for church attendance! There were so many that I agreed with--a few I didn't. I go because I think God wants to worship in community with others. It's easy for me to feel spiritual when I'm all alone . . . others often complicate that connection:lol:
I also go for my kids. I grew up in church and got a great christian education. I want my kids to have the same opportunity. When they become adults, I hope they will have a solid foundation to decide how they will pursue their own "God needs". It is also a great family time for all of us.
Once, the collection plate passed over my son's head (he was sprawled out with his head in my lap) and he raised up and said aloud, "Wait, I want some bread too!"
Church also helps me keep my life in perspective--I'm the worker bee, not the queen bee.

[u-dog]

it's nice to read everyones reasons for church attendance! There were so many that I agreed with--a few I didn't. I go because I think God wants to worship in community with others. It's easy for me to feel spiritual when I'm all alone . . . others often complicate that connection:lol:
I also go for my kids. I grew up in church and got a great christian education. I want my kids to have the same opportunity. When they become adults, I hope they will have a solid foundation to decide how they will pursue their own "God needs". It is also a great family time for all of us.
Once, the collection plate passed over my son's head (he was sprawled out with his head in my lap) and he raised up and said aloud, "Wait, I want some bread too!"
Church also helps me keep my life in perspective--I'm the worker bee, not the queen bee.


That reminds of the first time my neice attended church at age 3. she spoke only Italian at that time and said in a loud voice: "Mommy? Is this the circus?"

[Dumbledore]

I used to really love to go to church and used to find so much friendship and solace there...even spirituality. After coming out that all got blown to smithereens. I've not been to church consistently for a decade but funny enough my boyfriend and I were discussing it today...and poof...this thread.

We're feeling isolated as a couple and we're thinking about finding a church when my job hunt is complete (not sure where I will land). I think the community and the spiritual focus will be good for both of us.

[cartierobert]

I left church for a couple of years while I struggled over my own beliefs about being homosexual and a Christian. The whole time I longed to be back in a church....for fellowship.

To be loved and cherished by people who shared my beliefs and also to study the Bible with others. While I do not always agree with others interpretation, I sometimes get insight into things that I may not get otherwise.

I moved to Atlanta mainly because I knew there were welcoming and affirming groups and I managed to land in a church home that is not only welcoming and affirming but follows the church tradition which I have found most theologically similar to my own.

I am looking forward to next Sunday when I formally join the church and participate in leading the service.

[Dumbledore]

I left church for a couple of years while I struggled over my own beliefs about being homosexual and a Christian. The whole time I longed to be back in a church....for fellowship.

To be loved and cherished by people who shared my beliefs and also to study the Bible with others. While I do not always agree with others interpretation, I sometimes get insight into things that I may not get otherwise.

I moved to Atlanta mainly because I knew there were welcoming and affirming groups and I managed to land in a church home that is not only welcoming and affirming but follows the church tradition which I have found most theologically similar to my own.

I am looking forward to next Sunday when I formally join the church and participate in leading the service.

Glad you found a welcoming place. That is definitely a good thing. Most of organized religion scares this old wizard to death.

[cartierobert]

Glad you found a welcoming place. That is definitely a good thing. Most of organized religion scares this old wizard to death.

The term "Organzied Religion" has always hit me as odd. My studies of religion make it all seem very disorganized. Mostly people tyring to make since of the universe and debating over it's meaning. There are some groups that make things seem all structured and what not, but that really is not the case.

Of course being form a free church tradition, I have a different experience with faith and religion than say a Catholic. I don't think you get more organized than that.

[Dumbledore]

The term "Organzied Religion" has always hit me as odd. My studies of religion make it all seem very disorganized. Mostly people tyring to make since of the universe and debating over it's meaning. There are some groups that make things seem all structured and what not, but that really is not the case.

Of course being form a free church tradition, I have a different experience with faith and religion than say a Catholic. I don't think you get more organized than that.

Let me assist you in easily identifying the nature of the beast (organized religion that is). Whenever you get a group of people deciding if LGBT people get to preach, get married, have jobs or stay alive...you've found an organized religion.

[Zerbie]

I used to really love to go to church and used to find so much friendship and solace there...even spirituality. After coming out that all got blown to smithereens. I've not been to church consistently for a decade but funny enough my boyfriend and I were discussing it today...and poof...this thread.

We're feeling isolated as a couple

:( This makes me sad. :(
I can't BELIEVE people treat their friends in these ways. I know that they do, but I still can't believe it. :(

Well, I suppose the question was timely then. I have never gone to church, except those 4 or 5 times as a visiting stranger, and I have been wondering what it would be like, which is why I asked.

I hope you'll find an environment full of friendship and solace again. You have too much substance, intellect, and kindness to not have that.
:love::love:

[Dumbledore]

I hope you'll find an environment full of friendship and solace again. You have too much substance, intellect, and kindness to not have that.
:love::love:

Thanks Zerbie. My boyfriend and I have a lovely relationship but all our friends have left Chicago. It is so weird. We were walking along the lakefront and discussing how isolating that feels.

[cartierobert]

Let me assist you in easily identifying the nature of the beast (organized religion that is). Whenever you get a group of people deciding if LGBT people get to preach, get married, have jobs or stay alive...you've found an organized religion.

I understand your point of view, but I still maintain the terminology is largely flawed and widely misused.

[Zerbie]

Thanks Zerbie. My boyfriend and I have a lovely relationship but all our friends have left Chicago. It is so weird. We were walking along the lakefront and discussing how isolating that feels.

Ooh, that's the sort of thing that gives me a chronic low-grade case of the blues. Not having other friends to spend time with. :( All my friends left town around the time when I finished my masters degree - it was an incredibly painful and depressing time.

Yeah, you'd probably do well to find somewhere to go and hang out with like minded people who share your values and enjoy the same activities. For me, I don't think that's ever going to be a church. Not sure, which is why I started this question. More likely to be yoga classes for me. I've just started going to classes just to be around other people.

[Dumbledore]

Ooh, that's the sort of thing that gives me a chronic low-grade case of the blues. Not having other friends to spend time with. :( All my friends left town around the time when I finished my masters degree - it was an incredibly painful and depressing time.

Yeah, you'd probably do well to find somewhere to go and hang out with like minded people who share your values and enjoy the same activities. For me, I don't think that's ever going to be a church. Not sure, which is why I started this question. More likely to be yoga classes for me. I've just started going to classes just to be around other people.

We have an LGBT community center here in Chicago...maybe I should show up for the Rainbow Lotus Sangha on Thursdays (Buddhist group). I'm job hunting so I'm not sure if I'll be saying here or not.

[Zerbie]

We have an LGBT community center here in Chicago...maybe I should show up for the Rainbow Lotus Sangha on Thursdays (Buddhist group). I'm job hunting so I'm not sure if I'll be saying here or not.

That might be a pleasant way to pass the time even if you DO end up moving elsewhere. And if not, you'll already have a new network of buddies to celebrate your terrific new job with. :aparty:

[animejunkie]

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

[u-dog]

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

I think you got this exactly right KYO. When you are finally in a position to come out of your closet, be open with yourself, other people, and God about who you are and what that means and when you find a church where all of that can be celebrated openly, then you will be ready to experience the richness that God intends for your life! Likely that will include worship and fellowship with your fellow Christians. In the mean time... do what you need to in order to stay safe and protect your heart.

YOu are an awesome young man. The world is in for such a treat when it finally gets to see the KYO "butterfly" emerging from his Chrysalis and drying his amazing multi-colored wings in the sunlight! God is good!

[Pablo Rafael]

I love going to church! It is a place where I can connect to God in a community. There I find a reverance and a joy. I read the Bible and pray at home, but for me it is necessary also to be with others. It is a place where I can support others, and they can support me as we worship, hear God's word and receive the Eucharist together.

[keltic63]

Easy Answer:

I don't get paid if I don't show up! :lol:




:agree: same here. no play, no pay. and the word going through the grapevine is that a raise is coming when the budget gets voted in.

I really believe, as u-dog, that worship is our primary purpose, and that doing so corporately helps us focus on God. It's like recharging our spiritual batteries so that we can go out and serve others.

I am bothered by churches whose primary purpose seems to be evangelism. And by that, I mean that their worship service is not a worship service, but rather a strange combination of "We're good christians/listen to the nice things we say about God" and "get saved now because you're gonna burn if you don't!" Evangelism is for outside the church. the church is for worship.

That reminds of the first time my neice attended church at age 3. she spoke only Italian at that time and said in a loud voice: "Mommy? Is this the circus?"

Yesterday, some grandparents brought their 2yo grandson to church. His family will be attending our church in 2 weeks. After every song, the young man loudly announced "All Done!" :lol:

[dsdrane]

Until age 39, I was a life-long agnostic. Even walking into a church gave me the heebie-jeebies. I remember not so long ago attending an Evensong service a choir-director/organist friend of mine invited me to (ironically at an Episcopal church), and I pretty much freaked out. The incense, especially...oy!

It boils down to Faith. I didn't have it then...I do now, though. But, by having faith, I don't mean that I swallow it all hook, line and sinker. Worship is both corporate (together as a group) and individual, and I find there is plenty of room to find my particular beliefs and faith.

The change came at the end of a number of life-/perception-changing events: 9/11, a relationship ending, my father dying, another relationship ending, leaving NYC after some 17 years.

The theologian Henri J. M. Nouwen writes about how water will run right off of hard, packed soil. Crack open this soil, and the water can start to seep in, germinate the seeds below and create life.

A lifetime of various hurts and pains -- and honest to goodness skepticism -- had created a hard shell in my mind, a seemingly impervious barrier to things I couldn't prove, like specifically religious faith. I was completely dogmatic about being anti-dogmatic...completely intolerant of what I viewed and heard as intolerance.

Then life cracked open this barrier, and the water seeped in...water that gave birth to some new ideas, perspectives, ways of thought.

My now former diocesan bishop in Florida, Leo Frade, puts it another way when talking about the issues facing the Episcopal Church. He sees these "issues", these cracks in the walls, as absolutely essential to an institution still very much in the process of "becoming". The "body of Christ" is a work in progress, he writes, and the cracks are how the light gets in.

To answer your question, then, I go to church because I want to keep alive the epiphany I had over a year ago, while reluctantly accompanying my step-mom to the (Missouri) Lutheran church she and my father had been so long associated with. I wasn't sure what any of it meant, and I feel like I'm still in the process of figuring it out, but I knew it was something I wanted, something that felt right. I had faith in that feeling.

Fast forward a year, and I go to get that booster shot that reminds me of everything that is bigger than myself. I don't even mind the incense too much (which, fortunately, is only used on special occasions), because it can be part of the whole environment that puts your mind and heart in a different, non-quotidian place.

I go because I need other people around me to remind me of our human family. I go to sing. I go to hear words that, incredibly, have been passed along from generation to generation for millenia. I go to take the Eucharist, to literally ingest the truth that God is love. I go to feel God's peace.

There's a fantastic book by Sara Miles -- Take his Bread: A Radical Conversion -- that struck such an amazing chord with me. I highly recommend it, not to proselytize at all, but rather to attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

Finally, I go for reasons I think are beautifully summed up in a prayer we use frequently in the Book of Common Prayer:

A Prayer of St. Chrysostom

Almighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-loved Son that when two or three are gathered in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen.

[snuka12000]

First, I go to church because I have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. I go to church to praise the LORD. I go to church to fellowship with other Christians. I go to church to be encouraged and directed in my Christian walk by the pastor.

[cartierobert]

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

I was right there for a couple of years myself, but I finally broke down and did some research until I knew I could be both...a Chirstian and gay. It took me a while to find the right church even where so many exist that are welcoming and affirming. I had to find one that fit me.

[Dumbledore]

Until age 39, I was a life-long agnostic. Even walking into a church gave me the heebie-jeebies. I remember not so long ago attending an Evensong service a choir-director/organist friend of mine invited me to (ironically at an Episcopal church), and I pretty much freaked out. The incense, especially...oy!

It boils down to Faith. I didn't have it then...I do now, though. But, by having faith, I don't mean that I swallow it all hook, line and sinker. Worship is both corporate (together as a group) and individual, and I find there is plenty of room to find my particular beliefs and faith.

The change came at the end of a number of life-/perception-changing events: 9/11, a relationship ending, my father dying, another relationship ending, leaving NYC after some 17 years.

The theologian Henri J. M. Nouwen writes about how water will run right off of hard, packed soil. Crack open this soil, and the water can start to seep in, germinate the seeds below and create life.

A lifetime of various hurts and pains -- and honest to goodness skepticism -- had created a hard shell in my mind, a seemingly impervious barrier to things I couldn't prove, like specifically religious faith. I was completely dogmatic about being anti-dogmatic...completely intolerant of what I viewed and heard as intolerance.

Then life cracked open this barrier, and the water seeped in...water that gave birth to some new ideas, perspectives, ways of thought.

My now former diocesan bishop in Florida, Leo Frade, puts it another way when talking about the issues facing the Episcopal Church. He sees these "issues", these cracks in the walls, as absolutely essential to an institution still very much in the process of "becoming". The "body of Christ" is a work in progress, he writes, and the cracks are how the light gets in.

To answer your question, then, I go to church because I want to keep alive the epiphany I had over a year ago, while reluctantly accompanying my step-mom to the (Missouri) Lutheran church she and my father had been so long associated with. I wasn't sure what any of it meant, and I feel like I'm still in the process of figuring it out, but I knew it was something I wanted, something that felt right. I had faith in that feeling.

Fast forward a year, and I go to get that booster shot that reminds me of everything that is bigger than myself. I don't even mind the incense too much (which, fortunately, is only used on special occasions), because it can be part of the whole environment that puts your mind and heart in a different, non-quotidian place.

I go because I need other people around me to remind me of our human family. I go to sing. I go to hear words that, incredibly, have been passed along from generation to generation for millenia. I go to take the Eucharist, to literally ingest the truth that God is love. I go to feel God's peace.

There's a fantastic book by Sara Miles -- Take his Bread: A Radical Conversion -- that struck such an amazing chord with me. I highly recommend it, not to proselytize at all, but rather to attempt to explain something difficult to explain.

Finally, I go for reasons I think are beautifully summed up in a prayer we use frequently in the Book of Common Prayer:

A Prayer of St. Chrysostom

Almighty God, you have given us grace at this time with one accord to make our common supplication to you; and you have promised through your well-loved Son that when two or three are gathered in his Name you will be in the midst of them: Fulfill now, O Lord, our desires and petitions as may be best for us; granting us in this world knowledge of your truth, and in the age to come life everlasting. Amen.

This was a really powerful entry and really touched my heart. I kind of feel like the water is starting to penetrate my hard heart right now. A lot of this has to do with the conversations here at Soulforce. I need to find my way back to an Episcopal church here in Chicago. I attended one while in Bloomington, IN but have not really made much effort here. I'm not even sure which Episcopal churches are a good bet here in Chicago.

[Dumbledore]

I really do not like church. Ever since discovering my homosexuality identity, I have seriously stopped going. I felt in conflict with myself, and more specifically unwelcome because I was the abomination. This is my fellowship, this site and all its wonderful members. You guys embody the Christian fellowship I have ached for all my life. It feels so real and genuine, a feeling that within youth groups, and other Christian groups, I have always felt lacking. I hope someday to return to church, that will be a day when I am able to find the love God has waiting for me and when I am able to finally be free as myself at a Church.

Well we love having you in our Soulforce church. I have a question for you. You mentioned that God has love waiting for you. Why can't you find God's love now? I have the same exact problem. I know God loves me but because of the tremendous heartache I've experienced in church I find it difficult to open up my heart to God's love (even when I am not at church). It is really irrational at a lot of levels that we'd shield our hearts from God's love, but we do. Hmmm...a great mystery indeed.

[snuka12000]

You have to find a church where gay people are celebrated and not tolerated.

This website should have resources to help you find a church.

[snuka12000]

Here is a link to some churches in your area that you might want to do some research on.

http://www.pflagphoenix.org/community/churches.html

Gay-friendly churches

Within the past decade, more and more churches are becoming "affirming," meaning that they incorporate into their mission the concept that all worshippers, regardless of xx or sexual orientation, are welcome. The United Church of Christ is, as a whole, is known for being gay-supportive, as are the Unitarian Universalists. The clergy group No Longer Silent (nolongersilent.org) is made up of representatives from two prominent "gay churches," Community Church of Hope and Gentle Shepard (www.gsmcc.org), and offers support to gays and lesbians.

Here are some welcoming churches, plus a motto or a bit about the philosophy of each:

Trinity Episcopal Cathedral
100 W. Roosevelt, Phoenix
(602) 254-7126
www.trinitycathedral.com
"Radical hospitality, radical equality, radical love."

Grace Lutheran
1124 N. 3rd St., Phoenix
(602) 258-3787
www.graceinthecity.com
Known as "The Pancake Church" for its pancake-breakfast outreach to the homeless.

Valley Unitarian Universalist Church
6400 W. Del Rio St., Chandler
(480) 899-4249
www.vuu.org
"A welcoming community that honors diversity in all its forms."

Olive Tree Christian Fellowship at Palo Cristi Presbyterian
3535 E. Lincoln Dr., Paradise Valley
(602) 955-6080
www.palocristipres.org
"We welcome and encourage all people to join us in knowing Jesus Christ and learning about our faith."

Asbury United Methodist
1601 W. Indian School Rd., Phoenix
(602) 279-2369
www.aplaceforallpeople.com
"A place for all people to become disciples of Jesus Christ."

Casa de Cristo Evangelical Church
1029 E. Turney Ave., Phoenix
(602) 265-2831
www.casadecristo.org
"Christ-centered, Bible-based, spirit-filled, open and affirming."

Christ of the Desert Catholic of the Antioch at Faith Evangelical Lutheran Church
801 E. Camelback Rd., Phoenix
"We welcome all to our altars regardless of race, gender, marital or economic status, sexual orientation or denominational affiliation."

Community Church of Hope
4121 N. 7th Ave., Phoenix
(602) 234-2180
www.communitychurchofhope.com
"A diverse group of people who are God-centered and Christ-driven, seeking to provide God's hope and love to all."

Scottsdale Congregational United Church of Christ
4425 North Granite Reef Road
Scottsdale, Arizona 85251
(480) 946-2900
www.scucc.com
"An open and Affirming community of Christians who gladly welcome into our midst any person who seeks Christian fellowship regardless of race, age, gender or sexual orientation."

Via de Cristo United Methodist Church
20199 N. 78th Place, Scottsdale
(480) 515-4490
www.viadecristo.com
"Open hearts, open minds, open doors"

Healing Waters Ministries
225 West University Drive, Suite 105, Tempe
(480) 894-8681
www.hwmaz.com
"A Non-Denominational Christian church for lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders and heterosexuals."

[shadesofgray21]

Well we love having you in our Soulforce church. I have a question for you. You mentioned that God has love waiting for you. Why can't you find God's love now? I have the same exact problem. I know God loves me but because of the tremendous heartache I've experienced in church I find it difficult to open up my heart to God's love (even when I am not at church). It is really irrational at a lot of levels that we'd shield our hearts from God's love, but we do. Hmmm...a great mystery indeed.

You hit this right on the head, Dumbledore! Even a few years later, I find it difficult to differentiate God's love from the "love" that I witness when in a church. I have yet to find a church that I feel as though I am a peice in a puzzle, and not just a gay member of a church. It's a bit more difficult, being in Oklahoma City. My boyfriend and I attempted to attend Cathedral of Hope, but still did not feel completely comfortable. I don't know if it was the combined results of everything that we had been through regarding churches, or if it was just in our heads, but something, at that time, didn't feel right. How's that for a run-on sentence?

I still crave the fellowship and community of a church, which is partly the reason I have joined this community as well as the online community of Revolution NYC. The main driving force for me finding a church, at the moment, is the fact that I want to become involved in ministering to the GLBT youth that I know are going through the same things I did in my teens. It's definitely a lenghty process to heal your spirit from the damage done. As a former friend said to me when trying to "save" me from my homosexuality... "baby steps". I'm trying not to completely immerse myself into anything, for fear of getting hurt yet again.

[Vanessa White]

A bit of history, Zerb.

I was raised Catholic, although we were not strictly attending Catholics, mainly on the high holy days, and always Midnight mass on Christmas Eve. I am with dsdrane, although having the incense all the time would be too much, on Christmas eve it added to the connection for me. I enjoyed going then, as a kid and teen, because when I was in those beautiful buildings known as churches, with the music, smells, sounds, prayers said as a group, I felt so close to God that I was usually in tears. THe homily/sermon never connected with me as much as just BEING there. In community, feeling basked in God's love.

Fast forward to adulthood. I walked away from the Catholic church twenty or more years ago, because of the seemingly unloving attitude toward myself and others in the gay and lesbian community. I felt ignored as well as unloved and unappreciated. This did not seem to be such a big deal, because I did always connect with God outside of the church setting, but became a big deal after we had our daughter. My partner had also been raised Catholic, though not strict practicing like myself. I wanted a church that would embrace us as a family. She wanted to be invisible within the Catholic church. At least at first. Then, we did some church shopping, and found our small, local Methodist church and congregation, and wonderful pastor.

Long story short? Now, we go for our daughter, who knows the stories, the importance, the love of Jesus. We go for the sense of small, intimate community, where we seem to be genuinely embraced. We go for the intensity of prayer. And, I still love the building, it is small and old and quaint. Now though, I read along in the stories, the sermons speak to me, and the music we all sing joyfully.

I go for all of it. We all do in my family. However, I try not to think about the doings of the Methodist church outside of our safe haven on most days, so that, at least for a bit longer, we can feel like we really belong there. :love:

[Zerbie]

Here is a link to some churches in your area that you might want to do some research on.

http://www.pflagphoenix.org/community/churches.html

Gay-friendly churches

Within the past decade, more and more churches are becoming "affirming," meaning that they incorporate into their mission the concept that all worshippers, regardless of xx or sexual orientation, are welcome. The United Church of Christ is, as a whole, is known for being gay-supportive, as are the Unitarian Universalists. The clergy group No Longer Silent (nolongersilent.org) is made up of representatives from two prominent "gay churches," Community Church of Hope and Gentle Shepard (www.gsmcc.org), and offers support to gays and lesbians.

Here are some welcoming churches, plus a motto or a bit about the philosophy of each:

Trinity Episcopal Cathedral
100 W. Roosevelt, Phoenix
(602) 254-7126
www.trinitycathedral.com
"Radical hospitality, radical equality, radical love."

Grace Lutheran
1124 N. 3rd St., Phoenix
(602) 258-3787
www.graceinthecity.com
Known as "The Pancake Church" for its pancake-breakfast outreach to the homeless.

Valley Unitarian Universalist Church
6400 W. Del Rio St., Chandler
(480) 899-4249
www.vuu.org
"A welcoming community that honors diversity in all its forms."

Olive Tree Christian Fellowship at Palo Cristi Presbyterian
3535 E. Lincoln Dr., Paradise Valley
(602) 955-6080
www.palocristipres.org
"We welcome and encourage all people to join us in knowing Jesus Christ and learning about our faith."

Asbury United Methodist
1601 W. Indian School Rd., Phoenix
(602) 279-2369
www.aplaceforallpeople.com
"A place for all people to become disciples of Jesus Christ."

Casa de Cristo Evangelical Church
1029 E. Turney Ave., Phoenix
(602) 265-2831
www.casadecristo.org
"Christ-centered, Bible-based, spirit-filled, open and affirming."

Christ of the Desert Catholic of the Antioch at Faith Evangelical Lutheran Church
801 E. Camelback Rd., Phoenix
"We welcome all to our altars regardless of race, gender, marital or economic status, sexual orientation or denominational affiliation."

Community Church of Hope
4121 N. 7th Ave., Phoenix
(602) 234-2180
www.communitychurchofhope.com
"A diverse group of people who are God-centered and Christ-driven, seeking to provide God's hope and love to all."

Scottsdale Congregational United Church of Christ
4425 North Granite Reef Road
Scottsdale, Arizona 85251
(480) 946-2900
www.scucc.com
"An open and Affirming community of Christians who gladly welcome into our midst any person who seeks Christian fellowship regardless of race, age, gender or sexual orientation."

Via de Cristo United Methodist Church
20199 N. 78th Place, Scottsdale
(480) 515-4490
www.viadecristo.com
"Open hearts, open minds, open doors"

Healing Waters Ministries
225 West University Drive, Suite 105, Tempe
(480) 894-8681
www.hwmaz.com
"A Non-Denominational Christian church for lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders and heterosexuals."

Oh, it just now clicked with me that you googled affirming churches in Phoenix. That was kind of you.

Actually, I've worked with people at several of these churches on advocacy projects. Several pastors made comments to me in September along the lines of they would like having someone like me in their congregation - :love::love::love: - which was really very sweet of them. I started this thread after spending a couple hours looking at their websites, in fact, because I wanted to get a sense of what other people go to churches looking for.

[BenL]

I come late to this discussion. I wanted to hear what others had to say, and I really had to think about how I would answer Zerbie's question.

Church is very important to me. It always has been, even during the couple of years when I absented myself from active participation in a church. I always knew I would return to some faith community. I just didn't know which one.

The preacher this last Sunday asked: "What would you mourn the most if some day you came to the corner of Iriving and Pleasant streets and All Saints was gone, replaced by a Wal-Mart?" That drew a groan from the congregation, let me tell you.

The answer for me is difficult. First, I would miss the people ... but they could reassemble and rebuild elsewhere, I suppose. I would miss the music ... but ditto that. Same for the liturgy, which could be replicated elsewhere. No, what I would miss the most is the church itself.

Not that there's anything magical about this particular pile of brick and mortar. But somehow the lives and hopes and prayers of generations of All Sainters have made this place special. The Celtic tradition talks about "thin places," places where the veil between the human and the divine is extremely thin, where we mortals can somehow feel God's presence. For the ancients that included certain mountains and lakes, islands and groves of trees. Lindisfarne and Iona come to mind. They were considered holy long before Christianity arrived in the British Isles.

For me, All Saints has become one of those places. I think it's the sum total of the experience there and not just one part of it. It's where I have experienced grace and acceptance and have learned that God loves me as I am, not as others tell me I should be. Oh, I skip church occasionally, but it only serves to remind me how much I miss it when I do. And I crank and complain about this one or that one, about a hymn I don't like or a sermon I would rather not have heard. But always I want to return. There's a pull I can't explain rationally.

[Vanessa White]

Beautifully said, Ben. Thanks. It rings very true with me. :love::pray:

[dsdrane]

The Celtic tradition talks about "thin places," places where the veil between the human and the divine is extremely thin, where we mortals can somehow feel God's presence.

I first learned about "thin places" in my "Episcopal 101" class -- a class we were required to take to be received or confirmed in the Episcopal Church.

Barring a trip to Iona (which I would love to do) or some other mountain-top experience, I do feel that "thin place" in church at times. I get shivers regularly -- shivers that could be so easily explained away by this theory or that...but, honestly, I really could care less.

I know.

[andrewlittle]

I get shivers regularly -- shivers that could be so easily explained away by this theory or that...but, honestly, I really could care less.

I know.

Could there be a better definition of faith? I don't think so.

I go to church for the feeling of "embrace". We are embraced by God, just as we embrace God. We are embraced by each other, just as we embrace each other.

The measure of whether or not a church is viable for me is whether or not I feel that I can be embraced for who I am, and whether I am welcome to embrace others for who they are.

When someone has been damaged, hurt or ostracized by religion, the difficulty can be trusting enough to be willing to throw our arms wide open in a gesture of invitation. It is only a valid place to worship if the arms are also thrown wide open for you.

[sailaway58]

Could there be a better definition of faith? I don't think so.

I go to church for the feeling of "embrace". We are embraced by God, just as we embrace God. We are embraced by each other, just as we embrace each other.

The measure of whether or not a church is viable for me is whether or not I feel that I can be embraced for who I am, and whether I am welcome to embrace others for who they are.

When someone has been damaged, hurt or ostracized by religion, the difficulty can be trusting enough to be willing to throw our arms wide open in a gesture of invitation. It is only a valid place to worship if the arms are also thrown wide open for you.
You never let me down with your thoughts and insights. What a great standard the church should live up to. Thanks for your words.

[Zerbie]

Can we revive this thread?

Is it valid to go just to see if you can meet nice people who might have similar values?

[andrewlittle]

Can we revive this thread?

Is it valid to go just to see if you can meet nice people who might have similar values?

Each and every one of us is on a walk of faith - even if we profess no faith at all. We all have faith in something.

If each church was limited to just those people who actually believed exactly the same things, there'd be a lot more of them and there wouldn't be many people in any.

There isn't a bad reason to go into a church - unless it's to do harm.

A church is not a place or time - that may be when and where the church meets, but a church is the people who attend. And they're all different and are there for different reasons. Collectively, they will have a style - for worship, for gathering, for socializing. If the style is comfortable to you, go for it.

As far as what is said or sung, pick out the parts that feed you. You may have to overlook some parts that don't. Until you are comfortable otherwise, should that ever occur, consider yourself a friend of the church as opposed to having to become a member of it.

Oops, sorry! It was a short question. My answer - yes, it's perfectly acceptable.

[Daniel]

And why not I have attended church in the past. Am I attending now? Not much.

Why?

I wouldn't call it burnout- that would be too simple an answer. However, I spent my adolescence in church- an Assemblies of God church to be exact. Even went to one of their schools. Lots of chapel. Lots of church. Where did I fit in?

In the choir.

After leaving the Assemblies (didn't leave as much as I knew I could ever fit it as an openly gay person), I found myself in NYC for my job with an opera company and started singing professionally to make ends meet, mostly in Episcopalian parishes. What a wonderful difference that was. Here were churches where there were lots and lots of gay people. And the strain of conservatism that I had encountered previously was not to be found for the most part, even though, when I asked the Rector at the parish I had served in longest to bless the union between my husband and I, he refused. Coward! Didn't want to stick his head out- and he was 'out'.

After 15 years of this, I decided I had had enough. Enough singing for others. Enough sitting up front and making beautiful music- as much as I love doing so. Enough choir rehearsals at 9 AM, when my voice hardly wanted to work and singing above the staff was more work than pleasure. Enough dragging myself out of bed after having been up late the nght before singing some gigantic opera like Turandot or Carmen. Singers here in New York do this all the time. They 'work' all weekend. 'Going' to church is their bread and butter. This takes a toll. At least it has for me. And I love music making, especially the fine music of the Anglican church. There is nothing else like it. And if anything touches me more, it is the music, more than the preaching, which, if it does, is top-notch and from the heart and mind both.

When do I go now? When I join my husband at his parish, where he plays the organ, at St. James in the Bronx. I am getting used to sitting in the pew rather than the choir stall. And that is a very different experience.

Am I paying the price for being paid all those years? Perhaps. But I was happy doing so when I was doing so. Sang some great music (and you never know, I could still get back in the saddle), and felt the touch of community and the divine in the liturgy and pomp and circumstance, the echo of the Real as it has come down to us time via Tradition and Ritual observance.

It's the small things that have meant the most to me; kneeling before entering the pew, bowing as one crossed the nave etc- outward signs of inward contemplation and respect; holding the chalice gently at communion; chanting the psalm; processing as the first hymn was sung, and then leaving in the same manner with a sense of grandeur and largeness, of acceptance and wide open generosity, of Love which delights in each moment and person. These things are felt, not discussed, not debated and picked over. They simply are.

[matthewspeed]

I go to church for one reason.

To have an intimate encounter with Jesus Christ. I am a Catholic christian. My ultimate desire in church is the sacrament of Holy Communion. To me, it is the most intimate connection to God. When I partake of the body and blood of Christ, I am partaking in his death and ressurection. His blood was shed for my sins. I feel I don't deserve it, but He freely died for me and because if Him, I am now worthy.

This is MY belief and I embrace it and it brings me such joy. I realize not all that proclaim themselves as Christians on this site believe the exact way that I believe, but this is the truth in my heart. I continue to respect all for their beliefs. I also know we have peagans, buddhists, athiests, etc... that are members on this site and I love all of them and accept all and respect all. I believe we all want the same thing- to be loved, to love, to respect, to be respected. We are all different, but we are all brothers and sisters!!

-Matthew :)

[nmwolfboy]

i go to church because i believe in connecting with God within the context of a community. For me Christianity is about relationships. Relationship with God, Christ, each other.

My parish is a very ministry oriented one, where the 'priesthood of all' is taken to heart. There are alot of ministry opportunities for serving others. That's important to me.

Also, i'm a total high church liturgical nerd. :D i really appreciate Anglo-catholic pomp - so long as it doesn't impede 'loving your neighbor as yourself".

Pax, :dove:
scott

And ditto to what Matthew wrote above. The sacrament of the Eucharist is very important to me as well. My experience is one of a tangible connection to God and others through the receipt & sharing of the wine & bread.

[BrianB]

I go to church for one reason.

To have an intimate encounter with Jesus Christ. I am a Catholic christian. My ultimate desire in church is the sacrament of Holy Communion. To me, it is the most intimate connection to God. When I partake of the body and blood of Christ, I am partaking in his death and ressurection. His blood was shed for my sins. I feel I don't deserve it, but He freely died for me and because if Him, I am now worthy.

This is MY belief and I embrace it and it brings me such joy. I realize not all that proclaim themselves as Christians on this site believe the exact way that I believe, but this is the truth in my heart. I continue to respect all for their beliefs. I also know we have peagans, buddhists, athiests, etc... that are members on this site and I love all of them and accept all and respect all. I believe we all want the same thing- to be loved, to love, to respect, to be respected. We are all different, but we are all brothers and sisters!!

-Matthew :)

Thank you, Matthew, for saying all of that. It is pretty much my reason for going to church. I felt such a peace the first time I went to mass. It was amazing! Do other people connect to God in other churches? Absolutely! I just know that for me there is a peace and presence I had never felt in any other church.

To give some background on this statement. I've been in church literally all my life. My parents raised me in church. My extended family went to the same church, Assembly of God. We went because it was simply what was expected on Sunday twice and Wednesday night. You went to church unless sick. The habit of church had been engrained in me deeply. However when I cam out as bi' that caused a crises of faith. The A of G church says you're going to he**, no exceptions. I had to figure out for myself what church meant to me. For me it means receiving the real presence of Christ in the communion bread and cup. Did I feel a connection to God in my other church experiences. Yes I did. However I never felt the same peace that I feel in the catholic church. To sum up...I go for the deep sense of peace and connection to Christ and other christians.

[matthewspeed]

.... It is pretty much my reason for going to church. I felt such a peace the first time I went to mass. It was amazing! Do other people connect to God in other churches? Absolutely! I just know that for me there is a peace and presence I had never felt in any other church..

Brian

I find it amazing how God reaches all his children in different ways. When your heart is truely seeking God, He will meet you there, where ever you may be. Some find that intimacy at home in their own prayer closet, some at church, some while singing hymns and songs of praise, where ever! I used to think I had to spend a couple of hours in prayer every day to find the presense of God. If I didn't pray for a certain amount of time, I would miss out on Gods holiness! I would feel guilty if I missed a day of prayer. But now, I prefer to be in the presense of Holy Communion. It is not my own prayer life that connects me deeply with God, it is Communion.

Some find that connection by praying the Rosary, some love to jump up and down at a revival type church. But the main thing is, is that you are seeking the Creator and finding that deep connection. No one can tell you how to seek. God created us as individuals, and we all have our own individual relationship. That is the beauty of our God. He does not mold us into one prototype. We all are unique in our own way, and we all can have our own unique relationship with the living God.

[Daniel]

Matthew- I could not agree with you more. We each have our own way of connecting to the Divine, whatever words we use to discribe that experience and the situation involved. Makes me think that we all have that spark within us and that it is set aflame in a particular way that touches us deeply- if only we spend the timer and energy to look for it- to nurture it.

I've been practicing yoga for a few months (I could say religeously- but that would only make me laugh! :lol:) and have found this to be a very healing and- yes- even a sacred process. Heck, I've been meditating for many years, but moving the body as one does in yoga (and yoga is- interestingly enough- designed to ready the body for meditation or contemplation- that is sitting still!) has reached down into me- and touched me- in ways that music has in the past.

You know when you hear a piece of music and it bring you to tears? I am having that same experience, but while practicing holding asanas (various poses). The thing is, is that it feels like prayer to me. My eyes are open and I am moving in prayer. That's the best way I can describe it.

I went to church all my life to have an experience in the context of music, which brought me to the same experience that I am having now in the practice of yoga. I find that very interesting.

Makes me ruminate on this:

There is the temple of the body and the outer temple called the church. Both have limbs. We each our own, and the outer church, its members: limbs, hands, eyes and words that express the love within each of us.

Sounds like communion to me. :D

I think it important that we gather together- for I believe that the scripture that talks about 'where two or more are gathered' is a truth.

[matthewspeed]

There is the temple of the body and the outer temple called the church. Both have limbs. We each our own, and the outer church, its members: limbs, hands, eyes and words that express the love within each of us.

Sounds like communion to me. :D


Daniel

You explained it perfectly. We are a temple with the church being the outer temple. I am more and more convicted of what I am putting in this temple of mine. I admit to smoking! :( I am attempting to quit. Each day that passes, I feel more convicted concerning this smoking nonsense! (if Pablo reads this, he will have some words for me. I told him that I already quit! OOPs!)

I have already made an effort to eat more organically and will soon be getting back to the gym! But I have always been interested in Yoga as well. I keep hearing testimonials from various people concerning the health and spiritual benefits of Yoga. As a christian, I have no problem using Yoga as a spiritual connection. The bible uses the word meditation repeatedly. Prayer is meditation. The thought of being in a meditative state and allowing Gods peace to enter, sounds very inviting. I would like to learn more about Yoga.

[Zerbie]

I have already made an effort to eat more organically and will soon be getting back to the gym! But I have always been interested in Yoga as well. I keep hearing testimonials from various people concerning the health and spiritual benefits of Yoga. As a christian, I have no problem using Yoga as a spiritual connection. The bible uses the word meditation repeatedly. Prayer is meditation. The thought of being in a meditative state and allowing Gods peace to enter, sounds very inviting. I would like to learn more about Yoga.

:):love:

Yoga is a complete system for deepening one's religious practice via physical and mental health. It is universal. Many people have the misconception that yoga is a religion in itself, which sadly keeps some away from discovering it's incredible gifts. Whatever your religion is, practicing yoga is a means of enriching your understanding and practice of it.

There are many avenues for exploration of yoga from the very physically strenuous to the intellectual. I recommend some combination of both, maybe a sampling of a few of the different "styles" of yoga exercise that are out there, plus a little bit of reading according to your interest.

I'm happy to recommend a few books or some styles of yoga exercise that you might enjoy if you tell us a little about your tastes and interests.
Or you could PM me (or Daniel.)

[Sheri]

I posted this but can't find it, so I'm posting again...hope I'm not redundant.
I stopped going to church last year. My spiritual journey has been a process. I started out Catholic but after actually reading and studying the Bible, Jewish Tanakh, the Qu'ran, and the Hindu Vedas, I could no longer be Catholic. I've been to several churches in my life time including, my husband's orthodox church and various protestant churches.

A few years ago I joined a UU church and was amazed at how many atheists showed up every Sunday. I began to see that religion has hijacked spirituality. I see God in those atheists because of who they are and how they live their lives.

Then a friend who has been a Buddhist for 20 years recently began to study for the Pagan ministry. Being raised Catholic, I was taught that Pagans were the closest thing to the devil. My friend began teaching a Pagan study course and I signed up. From this study group I learned one very important lesson. It was a chapter on "magical tools and how to use them". While that, in itself, did not impress me, one sentence became an epiphany for me. "You know the tools are just props, all the magic is in your head" It suddenly dawned on me, THAT is what religion is...a prop. and some people need more, some less, some need stricter props and some don't need any props at all. The "magic" or "spirituality" comes from within us, not from a faraway place in the heavens.

I don't mean to disparage anyone's religion. I respect all religions. People in all religions experience what I call the "Holy Spirit", the presence of the Divine, faith healing, and other emotional experiences with God, as I do. Now either all the Gods up there are doing their own thing or it is the same thing and we just use different props to explain what we are feeling.

My spiritual journey is ongoing, but once I could release what I feel is "religious untruths", I now have more time to search for "what is true". And even more importantly, I'm okay with not ever finding that truth in this lifetime because it will be revealed through death which is the next phase of this crazy thing we call existance.

I continue my religious studies because I find it fascinating and I always learn something useful. But I am finally at a place of true inner peace without the church.

[EvangelicalSunblock]

Hey Sheri - You posted that to my question. I asked something similar to Zerb but in the wrong forum for that type of thing. Just in case you thought you were losing your marbles ;) you did in fact post and I appreciate it.

I definitely have the same question and so far can only come up with the following for why people go to church & what for.

1 - guilt
2- an affinity for tiny pieces of bread

I know there is an actual answer devoid of sarcasm but I just can't help myself.

I'm in Chicago. Definitely don't go to church but have a good contact for a church attended by good friends. It's an affirming, almost exclusively gay episcopal church on the North Side near Uptown and I'd be happy to track down the info if anyone is interested. I won't go with you but would be happy to light the path.