Too Christian?

[dsdrane]

Fully cognizant that this is a potential beehive-whacker, I would like to ask the following question:

Have the Soulforce fora become "too Christian"?

What would Gandhi say?

We recently welcomed a new participant who is Muslim. I was thrilled, but we haven't (to my knowledge) heard anything further from him. And where are our Jews, hmm? Or Hindus? Or more (...here's a shout-out to you, Scotty!) Faeries?

It's not that I want to squelch the Bible discussions, necessarily, or otherwise inhibit conversations; but, if we really are Soulforce's (unofficial) Fora, shouldn't we be making a more concerted effort to be inter-faith?

Discuss.

[Zerbie]

. And where are our Jews, hmm? Or Hindus? Or more (...here's a shout-out to you, Scotty!) Faeries?

Discuss.

Ex-SCUSE me?!?!? :mad::wave: Hello? :smashy::poke::wave:

Sometimes I do feel like the only non-christian frequenting the place, until Scotty pops round.;) Daniel may not still consider himself christian, having adopting much of Buddhist tradition, but at least he has that christian background to relate to the discussions, so I kind of lump him in with all y'all christian types.

I believe that, given the number of new members who stop by and say hello, introducing themselves as gay christians who have agonized over reconciling those two facets of their sense of self, it is important that there be a visible christian presence affirming the LGBT community. Therefore, while I would enjoy seeing more Hindus, Jews, etc floating around this board, I will not say it is "too christian." Seriously, if it were "too christian," I would not be here.

[scott snedeker]

I feel you have to start somewhere. Connecting to others from a spiritual angle requires some common point of reference.

I have been seen as a curious oddity by many of the posters here on soulforce, but being a hopeless hambone I have, quite frankly, revelled in the spotlight.

Faeries are primarily pagan, having been ousted from mainstream society and the judeo-christian paradigm at a young age. We see this as the opportunity to invent ourselves and our own spirituality. By being given the freedom that comes with excommunication we can tailor our belief system to fit our nature. Pagan spirtuality is a revival and reinvention and being so can be "hip" with the sensibility of the newest generation of gay folk.

But the folks here at Soulforce have also allowed me to share and offered affirmation to my recent exploration into spirituality. My experience here is part of why I Have made a recovery from the damaging effects of poor spiritual hygiene and poor thought discipline. I now see that these things have an organic consequence. This ties into my medical training and my formerly exclusively allopathic approach to medicine.

My experience has been that most folks here are open to new ideas Which is why ya'll post here in the first place. Like Zerbie, I wouldn't be here if I felt it were too christian. I have also received private messages from posters who felt they could share "unchristian" feelings relating to raw passion or polyandry with me but not on the open boards. This I consider to be a great privilege and affirmation that no matter what belief paradigm we profess, we are all homo sapiens by nature, A magnificent and successfull species.

I feel that Soulforce is a shaper of a kinder future through knowledge of spirirtuality and each other. I feel the more that is discussed here, the more Christ-like and less "christian" each of us becomes.

[Alecto]

Generally, I don't click on the discussions about Bible verses. It's true. But I do check up on the rest, and I do butt in when I've got something to add. The boards in general seem a little slower as of late, but ::shrug::
Yours,
(Not-so-christian) Tim

[antiochian]

(Hiii Scotty!!!)

I think most people here are pretty open-minded. Not even all of the Christians here are totally alike. Christianity is a big religion with lots of different ideas and beliefs, really. We have Catholics here at Soulforce as well as Calvinists (or at least one if I remember right), Baptists, MCC's, Methodist, etc., etc. Some go to church every Sunday and pray every day and are strong in their beliefs, others do not and are not.

I personally enjoy the other viewpoint that those of other faiths bring (or no faith), because they level things out, they keep us thinking, they give us new ideas.

Actually, on many glbtq forums it's kinda of the opposite--many want nothing to do with anyone who believes in Christ, or even with someone who believes in any religion! So, I say keep balance, we believe what we believe, but I don't see anyone shoving any denominations or creeds or goddesses or gods down anyone's throat. I think people here do a pretty good job of respecting each other.

[Daniel]

Fully cognizant that this is a potential beehive-whacker, I would like to ask the following question:

Have the Soulforce fora become "too Christian"?

Would an accurate restatement of your question be: "Is the Christian aspect of Soulforce (Mel White is a Christian after all), keeping some folks away?"

I wonder about that. But looking around the place, my sense is that those who stick around have something of an expansive outlook, that is, they allow others to be who they are, where they are, as they are. I think this is something more than political correctness, arising, as it were, from life experience which teaches that judging others in matters of faith is death on a stick. Most of us have been the recipients of this kind of judgment at one time or another, and regardless of our spiritual orientation, we're not about to dole that out. Getting out off that thicket may be what brings folks here in the first place.

What would Gandhi say?

That's an interesting question. I don't know as much about Gandhi as I ought, but I gather that the man could have something of an uncompromising nature. His views on chastity and marriage would probably not have included the likes of us gay folk- I don't think that's a hard call to make. As it is, sexual matters are still anathema in Indian culture. We represent all that should NOT be discussed. That said, I would hope that, if he were alive today, he would 'get' what Soulforce is about. Same with Dr. King. Certianly, both were products of their time, living, as it were, before gay liberation (and it is nothing less than liberation) was born.

It's not that I want to squelch the Bible discussions, necessarily, or otherwise inhibit conversations; but, if we really are Soulforce's (unofficial) Fora, shouldn't we be making a more concerted effort to be inter-faith?

I found my way to this forum after learning that Herrin Haven was a Buddhist. I thought- gee- if she can go out on the road and not blink an eye when asked about her faith, there must be a place of someone like me who isn't exactly a 'Christian'. Before that, I had the sense that Soulforce was exclusively Christian. Could the organization do more to get out an inclusive message? Well...yeah!

Sometimes I do feel like the only non-christian frequenting the place, until Scotty pops round.;) Daniel may not still consider himself christian, having adopting much of Buddhist tradition, but at least he has that christian background to relate to the discussions, so I kind of lump him in with all y'all christian types.

Lumpy? Is that why I feel like I need some smoothing out lately? :lol:

Seriously, if it were "too christian," I would not be here.

Yep. I resemble that remark. And as an indicator of my own journey, I don't find myself particiating in the biblical disussions much. My eyes glaze over. Maybe it's my past and old wounds. Then again, my head may simply be somewhere else these days.

While I've visited other pastures, I have never left the teachings of Jesus, having carried them with me wherever I've gone. And the older I get, I see the need to travel light. You can only take so much with you. As a teacher once said to me: "You have to work hard to make things simple." Of course, she was talking about matters musical. But then, I see matters of the spirit and music as being inextricably interwined. The journey in one invokes the other.


I feel that Soulforce is a shaper of a kinder future through knowledge of spirituality and each other. I feel the more that is discussed here, the more Christ-like and less "christian" each of us becomes.

Ah.....that's the ticket. Could not agree more.

[Sherrie Z]

From Daniel's post ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott snedeker
I feel that Soulforce is a shaper of a kinder future through knowledge of spirituality and each other. I feel the more that is discussed here, the more Christ-like and less "christian" each of us becomes.

Ah.....that's the ticket. Could not agree more.

******************************************

Hear hear! Yes, that IS the ticket!

If I felt that the Soulforce forum was not inclusive enough I would un-include myself.

I generally tend to avoid the heavily evangelical discussions (been there, done that, lost count of all the T-shirts) ... but I do see their importance and value for many who are here.

I like how we operate here ... in matters of spirituality, I'm only comfortable when everyone can feel welcome and able to speak freely ... being somewhat of a "spiritual hybrid" myself, I do feel welcome and able to speak freely here ... but is there something more we could be doing to be sure everyone can feel that way?

[sailaway58]

I came here to interact with gay Christians. I wanted to know what a gay Christian thought about living a spiritual life. I found more here and enjoy everyone but we are far from being too Christian.
I think we have overall mutual respect and our common bond is GLBT issues and support, not Christ.

[andrewlittle]

Fully cognizant that this is a potential beehive-whacker ...

Ah, lovely. There's nothing as good for relationships as whacking the beehive once in a while - translation: as calling for self-examination and honesty even if it's a little uncomfortable.

I would like to ask the following question:

Have the Soulforce fora become "too Christian"?

What would Gandhi say?

We recently welcomed a new participant who is Muslim. I was thrilled, but we haven't (to my knowledge) heard anything further from him. And where are our Jews, hmm? Or Hindus? Or more (...here's a shout-out to you, Scotty!) Faeries?

It's not that I want to squelch the Bible discussions, necessarily, or otherwise inhibit conversations; but, if we really are Soulforce's (unofficial) Fora, shouldn't we be making a more concerted effort to be inter-faith?

Discuss.

To me, David, Soulforce is like a church. To others, I pray it is like a mosque, a temple, or a beautiful area of natural splendor - someplace that anyone could find discussion and engagement that feeds their soul and/or mind.

Like anything worth frequenting, the Soulforce forum is like a chicken. (this was an old lay preacher's take on the Bible, but I think it fits here.) For some, only the white meat is edible. For some, it is the dark meat. Some even like the innards and not much of the rest. The Chinese and others even relish the feet. In short, if the whole forum is like a chicken, we are required to pick through it to find that which is food for our spirits, and allow others to choose the same or different parts depending on what feeds them. The whole thing is edible, just not necessarily for me.

As to "too Christian", I feel the same way about church. There are times during worship, perhaps, that may be most meaningful to people who have Christian backgrounds. But if a church does not make room for people of different cultures and beliefs to find comfort within its doors and its services, it is doomed to a slow death - IMO. The church does not exist to pat Christians on the back and tell them they have it right - it exists to allow Christians the privilege of loving everyone as their neighbor, no matter who they are or what they believe - again, IMO.

Great questions - I hope we listen to them and wrestle with the answers.

I want friends like Scotty, Daniel, Zerbie and our friends of all other faiths to be able to step into my sacred space and find things that they can also hold sacred - and a place that will honor what they hold sacred, even if it stretches (or, perhaps, especially if it stretches) my own belief system.

I count Soulforce as that kind of sacred space - for everyone. I would hope that all would offer thoughts they hold sacred up for the rest of us to see and respect - actually, just like Scotty, Daniel, Zerbie and others do.

[u-dog]

I have decades of experience pretending to be something I'm not. I could pretend to be Zarthustrian or even Janist. :) just... could you tell me what they believe? and does it involve dancing nude?

[Alecto]

I think this is something more than political correctness, arising, as it were, from life experience which teaches that judging others in matters of faith is death on a stick.


Same with Dr. King. Certianly, both were products of their time, living, as it were, before gay liberation (and it is nothing less than liberation) was born.


"Death on a stick" made me picture a little puppet of death...on a stick.

In any event, I don't know so much about Ghandi, but I thought it worth sharing that King happily worked with Bayard Rustin knowing full well he was gay. (Before Mr. Rustin, it's my understanding that nonviolence was a tactic to King, whereas Rustin insisted it must be a way of life).

[dsdrane]

Soulforce Vision Statement

"The purpose of Soulforce is freedom for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people from religious and political oppression through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance."

Soulforce Mission Statement

The mission of Soulforce is to cut off homophobia at its source -- religious bigotry. Soulforce uses a dynamic "take it to the streets" style of activism to connect the dots between anti-gay religious dogma and the resulting attacks on the lives and civil liberties of LGBT Americans. We apply the creative direct action principles taught by Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. to peacefully resist injustice and demand full equality for LGBT citizens and same-gender families.

...and yet the yield is still lopsided.

[paul]

When I first came here I labeled myself as a "heathen." Still, I speak the language and I'm sure I can be confusing. I have found complete acceptance by the gang here. I guess what I am saying is, I wouldn't change a thing (not that that is being suggested). I find everyone here to be very respectful of other peoples beliefs.

I am supposing that anyone who sticks around and dives in will find acceptance regardless of their beliefs...as long as those beliefs don't bash GLBT. I've even found a fair amount of tolerance towards some stuck in the 'God don't like gay' mire. "Anti gay religious dogma" is the only think I have found that is not tolerated here.

I wonder if maybe we don't have more diversity here because some people don't want diversity. Those visiting may want a more exclusive group that parallels their personal beliefs?

[marutidas]

The only thing that I could think of to start solving this issue is if we got to know our spirtual neighbors, step outside outside our comfort zone, attend a sevice of a different religion different from your own. Experience builds commonality. Usually Unitarian Churches are a good place to start, they usally have different religions worshipping in the same place.

~~~Maruti Das:flower:

[Pablo Rafael]

I have wondered too if we Christians don't run away people of differing religious backgrounds and beliefs, maybe not intentionally, but just by sheer force of numbers.

That being said; the majority of us are from the United States, and the majority of Americans are from Christian backgrounds. More Christian fish than any other kind will be caught in the net.

I am a Christian, and it is a very important part of my being; my sexuality is also closely tied to my beliefs. So when I make a post, it will always be from a Christian perspective.

I have found people here very welcoming and understanding in almost every situation. I hope that others of differing beliefs will also feel welcomed.

Pablo

[antiochian]

That's an interesting question. I don't know as much about Gandhi as I ought, but I gather that the man could have something of an uncompromising nature. His views on chastity and marriage would probably not have included the likes of us gay folk- I don't think that's a hard call to make. As it is, sexual matters are still anathema in Indian culture. We represent all that should NOT be discussed.

Sexuality taboo in India? That's hard for me to believe considering all of the depictions of sexual acts in and outside of Indian temples, which left the English flabbergasted when they arrived.

But I'm no anthropologist or expert, either.

[dsdrane]

I wonder if maybe we don't have more diversity here because some people don't want diversity. Those visiting may want a more exclusive group that parallels their personal beliefs?

This is an interesting point.

I'm sure that explains some of it...but not all of it.

Daniel made the point earlier that SF's founder, Mel White, is indeed a Christian. SF's vision and mission statements, however, appear to look beyond Christianity to include all religious oppression of GLBT people.

Does SF as an organization walk the talk...or do we basically target Christian oppression of GLBT people?

In other words, SF broadly implies it is inter-faith, but is it? And is that message inadvertently broadcast to visitors who either are not or are no longer Christian?

[Daniel]

Sexuality taboo in India? That's hard for me to believe considering all of the depictions of sexual acts in and outside of Indian temples, which left the English flabbergasted when they arrived.

But I'm no anthropologist or expert, either.

Recent events- ie Richard Gere being criticised for kissing a Bollywood actress in public- pointed out how displays of sexuality are considered a no-no. Sexuality is not discussed in public. I have a friend who lives in New Delhi with his boyfriend and he confirmed this perception. You can be gay as long as you don't talk about it- ever. It just not on the radar in that culture. Those in the artist/musical class have things a bit better- they have a bit more leeway- falling outside the cultural norm. Most folks, however, are expected to marry the opposite sex and have children. We shouldn't forget that India still has a strong remnant of Victorian values from the occupation of the British. Their ancient culture? While we may idealize it, only a minority appreciate it there. Whatever diversity existed in the past in India, certainly doesn't hold sway now, at least not in the way we might think.

I know the temples you are talking about: Khajuraho. Gandhi wanted to have them covered up. Ain't that something? The guy who is considered the father of non-violence seemed to have his own puritanical streak, which, if anything, is a form of violence.

Here's what I think: just because someone has a high degree of realization in the spiritual realm, doesn't mean that they are up to snuff in other areas. Case in point: we really shoudn't expect the Dalai Lama to approve of gay sexuality. He is a monk. And concerns himself with monks and their pursuit of enlightenment, peace etc. He may have a great amount to say about how to achieve happiness etc, but he doesn't have the same window of understanding concerning the relative reality of being gay. No matter how 'smart' we think he is, his culture doesn't supports this kind of understanding. Likewise, few of us have an understanding of what it means to discipline ourselves in meditative practice for many hours every day. And we don't live in a culture which supports this kind of activity. If you want to do that here in America, you are considered somewhat odd, if not nuts.

http://www.liveindia.com/khajuraho/

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/12-31-2004-63606.asp

After India became independent, Mahatma Gandhi proposed that all these sculptures, all these temples should be sunk into mud. They would not be destroyed, so if some foreign dignitary comes to see then you can clean it and show him -- just for special people. But for ordinary people they would be closed. Because Mahatma Gandhi thought in the same way as it is thought all over the world, that they are erotic, they are obscene. But there is a vast difference between the Eastern art in Ajanta, Ellora, Konark, Khajuraho and the modern Western erotic, p o r n o g r a p h i c photography, painting, music.

I find it very interesting that every culture seems to have some need to control sexuality. And the first way to this is done is to limit visual expressions of it. The temples of Khajuraho- I believe- reflect an understanding of 'trantra', something which is little understood. And yep- there are expressions of same-sex sexuality depicted. Those old stone carvers where recording the gamut of sexual expression.

Ok...enough blah blah from me....

[Dumbledore]

I think that by labeling the forum as "too Christian" you have missed the complete miracle unfolding before your eyes. If you had asked me a year ago about what to do with the Bible, I would have suggested using it for firewood. And here I am talking to my friends at Soulforce about content of Paul's letters. For many people on this forum their experience in the church has not only cut them off from their faith, but has hardened their hearts to the living God. Who would have thought that a forum like this could help us reconnect with God...in a new and healthy way. This can only be a good thing.

This in no way discounts other religious/philosophical paths. I have studied Buddhism for years and find vast amounts of very fundamental wisdom there. I believe that our Buddhist, Atheist and Pagan friends here have much to teach us. I would imagine that if someone started a discussion about a Buddhist text, Pagan philosophy or Humanism that half of us would jump at the opportunity to participate.

We need to be careful not to put Christianity in the closet. There are far more beautiful ideas in Christianity than bad ones. It was his love for God that gave the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. the fire in his belly for justice. Just because this country is overrun with nutcases that have bastardized the faith does not mean that the faith is not revolutionary.

It is the queer eye that can give the Christian faith it's revolutionary edge.

[dsdrane]

I think that by labeling the forum as "too Christian" you have missed the complete miracle unfolding before your eyes. If you had asked me a year ago about what to do with the Bible, I would have suggested using it for firewood. And here I am talking to my friends at Soulforce about content of Paul's letters. For many people on this forum their experience in the church has not only cut them off from their faith, but has hardened their hearts to the living God. Who would have thought that a forum like this could help us reconnect with God...in a new and healthy way. This can only be a good thing.

This in no way discounts other religious/philosophical paths. I have studied Buddhism for years and find vast amounts of very fundamental wisdom there. I believe that our Buddhist, Atheist and Pagan friends here have much to teach us. I would imagine that if someone started a discussion about a Buddhist text, Pagan philosophy or Humanism that half of us would jump at the opportunity to participate.

We need to be careful not to put Christianity in the closet. There are far more beautiful ideas in Christianity than bad ones. It was his love for God that gave the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. the fire in his belly for justice. Just because this country is overrun with nutcases that have bastardized the faith does not mean that the faith is not revolutionary.

It is the queer eye that can give the Christian faith it's revolutionary edge.

First of all, Albus, I haven't labelled anything (yet); I'm asking. :whistleblower:

Secondly, as an Episcopalian, I am, by definition a Christian (though some might debate that :rolleyes:).

Thirdly, I'm happy that you have opened your mind to different things, and, believe me, I know exactly what you mean. And I'm all for it, as long as it isn't to the exclusion of others (people or ideas). You say you imagine other, non-Christian texts would be as eagerly discussed...but, that's exactly my point: you imagine they would. They are not (or, at least, haven't been so much lately), and that's why I'm asking the larger question about a real or perceived Christian bias.

Fourthly, I'm not advocating putting Christianity in the closet (like that were even possible).

Finally, can you not understand that when you use language like "revolutionary edge" that this might be a deal-breaker for non-Christians?

Inter-faith communication is fraught with emotional and psychological land-mines...but this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for more of it...or at least make sure that we provide fertile ground for it.

[Zerbie]

Well if we're talking about perceptions, I believe there IS a perception of Christian bias, or/and a perception that Soulforce is a "christian organization." Those perceptions are coming from people superficially familiar with Soulforce who have not looked closely to see what SF is, as far as I can tell.

As far as the discussion topics go, ya'll may notice I don't weigh in on the Biblical discussion threads. First of all: :sleep::sleep::sleep: And secondly, I don't know what Galatians are (to reference a current discussion) but it sounds to me like they're people from Spain. :rolleyes: Ya'll have a happy time discussing those things, and I'll meet up with ya on the other, more general threads. :love:

[andrewlittle]

First of all, Albus, I haven't labelled anything (yet); I'm asking. :whistleblower:

And asking in a way that isn't threatening, I might add - direct and requiring self-examination, but not threatening.

Secondly, as an Episcopalian, I am, by definition a Christian (though some might debate that :rolleyes:).

Thirdly, I'm happy that you have opened your mind to different things, and, believe me, I know exactly what you mean. And I'm all for it, as long as it isn't to the exclusion of others (people or ideas). You say you imagine other, non-Christian texts would be as eagerly discussed...but, that's exactly my point: you imagine they would. They are not (or, at least, haven't been so much lately), and that's why I'm asking the larger question about a real or perceived Christian bias.

Fourthly, I'm not advocating putting Christianity in the closet (like that were even possible).

Finally, can you not understand that when you use language like "revolutionary edge" that this might be a deal-breaker for non-Christians?

I am not sure that I read Dumbiedore's - oh, excuse me, Albus - Dumbledore's comments the way he intended them, but I think I did.

The "revolutionary edge" isn't because it is Christian, but rather that the "queer eye" of GLBT involvment gives a much needed revolutionary edge to Christianity. It is, I think, highly likely that it would add a revolutionary edge to virtually all faiths and even atheism. Truth seen from those we'd shove to the edges, so to speak.

Inter-faith communication is fraught with emotional and psychological land-mines...but this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for more of it...or at least make sure that we provide fertile ground for it.

:applause::applause::applause:

[paul]

Well if we're talking about perceptions, I believe there IS a perception of Christian bias, or/and a perception that Soulforce is a "christian organization." Those perceptions are coming from people superficially familiar with Soulforce who have not looked closely to see what SF is, as far as I can tell.


I agree. One of my first responses to u-dog was to laugh because he referred to himself as a Calvinist. I had never met a Calvinist remotely close to u-dog, he totally messed up my stereotype. And damn, if Brent and Andy didn't come along and obliterate it. But, I had to read past the label and get into the contents.

David is a great example of why and how this infidel is here. He, an admitted Christian, is willing to examine himself and Christianity. I can ask for no greater gift from a friend, and find many friends here.
paul

[Zerbie]

IDavid is a great example of why and how this infidel is here.
paul

Oh, ugh! When are you going to stop calling yourself ugly names?!

[u-dog]

Oh, ugh! When are you going to stop calling yourself ugly names?!

I think he was trying to be nice to ME ... so leave him alone!! You and Paul are both both closet Christians! You are fooling nobody. :love: ;)

[Zerbie]

I think he was trying to be nice to ME ... so leave him alone!! You and Paul are both both closet Christians! You are fooling nobody. :love: ;)

:mad::mad::mad::smashy::smashy::smashy:

I still have my problem with the word "christian." sigh.
Anyway, I could just retort that you are a closet Hindu. After that one post you made about the Father and the Holy Spirit, and all the different manifestations of god, I kinda wonder. :poke::poke::poke:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Vanessa White]

Even if the reason for possible Christian bias, or at least a larger than others Christian presence, or even embracing, here at Soulforce, I am more than willing as a follower of Christ to examine that and consider alternatives.

My question for you ds is: any ideas? If, indeed, Christianity seems to be the prevalent theme/religion here a lot of the times, even appearing to be exclusive in that, what can any of us do to invite/open up the door for others to explore/educate/"worship" as it were here with us? I mean, in addition to the Daniels and Zerbies and Scottys that we have, among a few others. You got me thinking even about the Equality Rides, and that they serve a beautifully thought out purpose, and they go to Christian colleges and Universities. I don't know if there are colleges and universities in this country that are religious but non Christian, but an idea on this wavelength is to have ourselves reach out beyond Christian groups as an organization outside of these forums.

Wow, did that make any sense at all? Sounds like gibberish, but not sure how else to say it.

Maybe the answer lies beyond just what we talk about and are willing to do differently or explore here. There is no doubt that many of us are open to all religious beliefs and views here, and get excited about the learning and the connection. Maybe the answer to address this, if there is a need to address it, is beyond here.

Okay, I will stop being confusing now. :)

[Dumbledore]

First of all, Albus, I haven't labelled anything (yet); I'm asking. :whistleblower:

Yes you were asking, but implicit in your asking was your perceived reality that Soulforce is "too christian". You even anticipated whacking the bee-hive. But whack away...it is a good discussion.

Secondly, as an Episcopalian, I am, by definition a Christian (though some might debate that :rolleyes:).

My experience with Episcopalians leads me to believe that they are indeed Christian although I have been constantly amazed at the pride Episcopalians take in being labled as "unchristian" by their less progressive sisters and brothers of the Church.

They are not (or, at least, haven't been so much lately), and that's why I'm asking the larger question about a real or perceived Christian bias.

I don't think there is any bias here, just that there are a lot of Christians here in various states of maladjustment to their faith. I suggest that people of other persuasions get off their butts and post an interesting text for us to discuss. Bring it on because Dumbdorff is ready to learn.


Finally, can you not understand that when you use language like "revolutionary edge" that this might be a deal-breaker for non-Christians?


Refer to Andrew Little's comment above and to this post:
http://www.soulforce.org/forums/showpost.php?p=46748&postcount=6


Inter-faith communication is fraught with emotional and psychological land-mines...but this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for more of it...or at least make sure that we provide fertile ground for it.

I think Soulforce, more than any place, is furtile ground for interfaith discussion. But does that mean that those who want to discuss Christianity have to keep their light under a bushel.

As Zerbie so eloquently put it...she just avoids the holy-roller threads because they put her to sleep.

[Alecto]

I am completely in the dark on this, so I am sincerely asking (not a rhetorical question): what has SoulForce done to reach out to other religions? Were the Equality Rides specifically to Christian colleges, or were there other ones in the mix? I haven't done the research on this, but is it really possible that there aren't any other religious colleges that have an atmosphere toxic to GLBT students?

Bias doesn't have to be an active exclusion; it's most often a passive thing. We tend to forget the other folks are there, and forget to actively reach out to them. They, in turn, see us as a "Christian" organization, or the gay rights movement at large as a "White" movement, and who can blame them?

[Dumbledore]

Bias doesn't have to be an active exclusion; it's most often a passive thing. We tend to forget the other folks are there, and forget to actively reach out to them. They, in turn, see us as a "Christian" organization, or the gay rights movement at large as a "White" movement, and who can blame them?

You have an excellent point. How do we actively reach out to our non-Christian friends at Soulforce?

[paul]

Oh, ugh! When are you going to stop calling yourself ugly names?!

I was speaking tongue in cheek. I use the word "infidel" with a smile on my face, kind of laughing at the label.

[andrewlittle]

I am completely in the dark on this, so I am sincerely asking (not a rhetorical question): what has SoulForce done to reach out to other religions? Were the Equality Rides specifically to Christian colleges, or were there other ones in the mix? I haven't done the research on this, but is it really possible that there aren't any other religious colleges that have an atmosphere toxic to GLBT students?

Bias doesn't have to be an active exclusion; it's most often a passive thing. We tend to forget the other folks are there, and forget to actively reach out to them. They, in turn, see us as a "Christian" organization, or the gay rights movement at large as a "White" movement, and who can blame them?

Joining in the ranks of those asking some really good questions - like David, Zerbie, et al - is Alecto.

Passive bias is the most prevalent and, perhaps, the most hienous because it hides from those possessing it. Even if it is a positive bias - as in being "open to" - does it require that someone else step out in courage to be a part. Admittedly, that's an easier thing to do when you are in a "like-minded" community. How easy is that to do when you are in territory that is, at least, perceived to be exclusive?

Being open to posts from other traditions is not like encouraging or embracing posts from them. How do we do that? Daniel, Zerbie, and others - how did you come to find the open door to posting here? This is not a question with a negative assumption, but rather one in which I hope that you can shed a positive light from your experiences - or negative, if that is the case.

BTW, if you can't tell, I think this is a very important discussion. Thank you, David.

[Dumbledore]

Well if we're talking about perceptions, I believe there IS a perception of Christian bias, or/and a perception that Soulforce is a "christian organization." Those perceptions are coming from people superficially familiar with Soulforce who have not looked closely to see what SF is, as far as I can tell.

Zerbie is actually right on the money. When I first joined in the discussions here, I sincerely believed that I'd be meeting Christians here. I was quite surprised to meet Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, etc. If I had known, I would have joined earlier.

[Zerbie]

I suggest that people of other persuasions get off their butts and post an interesting text for us to discuss.

As Zerbie so eloquently put it...she just avoids the holy-roller threads because they put her to sleep.

Yaa.

As to posting a text for you to discuss, well that hasn't been my interest. We have so many fertile discussions and I haven't felt any desire to start one based on a quote.

If you want to discuss something that's been written that resonates strongly with me, you always have the Rumi quote in my signature. You see it all the time so you've probably forgotten it's there. I have strong reasons for including it.



Daniel, Zerbie, and others - how did you come to find the open door to posting here? This is not a question with a negative assumption, but rather one in which I hope that you can shed a positive light from your experiences - or negative, if that is the case.

.

Good grief. It never occured to me the door would be anything other than open. I expected to be welcome here. Though I suppose if I wasn't that might have colored my attitude towards SF more generally.

Zerbie is actually right on the money. When I first joined in the discussions here, I sincerely believed that I'd be meeting Christians here. I was quite surprised to meet Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, etc. If I had known, I would have joined earlier.

:lol:
During the months planning 7SN, I ran into people who had the assumption that I was christian because I was volunteering for SF.

[keltic63]

I've been watching this conversation carefully and with mixed emotions. I'm glad to see the direction that this dialog has taken.

So perhaps we need a little pr, maybe a new logo that says something like:

Soulforce: it's not just for christians anymore!

[Dumbledore]

If you want to discuss something that's been written that resonates strongly with me, you always have the Rumi quote in my signature. You see it all the time so you've probably forgotten it's there. I have strong reasons for including it.

Now you've piqued my curiosity...tell us more about your quote.

[Zerbie]

Now you've piqued my curiosity...tell us more about your quote.

:lol:
What's there to tell? I didn't write it, Rumi did. Don't know lots about Rumi. Loved the quote.
:)

[u-dog]

:lol:
What's there to tell? I didn't write it, Rumi did. Don't know lots about Rumi. Loved the quote.
:)


Rumi was a ... 16th century? Sufi mystic and poet. His poetry is profound ... and hilarious! beautiful and earthy. We could do worse than post some of his poetry and then discuss it.

[dsdrane]

I think he was trying to be nice to ME ... so leave him alone!! You and Paul are both both closet Christians! You are fooling nobody. :love: ;)

Dude, I think he was referring to me!

:D:cool:

[u-dog]

Dude, I think he was referring to me!

:D:cool:

No way! I'm way nicer and more self-effacing and self questioning than you are. He had to be talking about me.

[dsdrane]

No way! I'm way nicer and more self-effacing and self questioning than you are. He had to be talking about me.

Pbthbththth!

[dsdrane]

Even if the reason for possible Christian bias, or at least a larger than others Christian presence, or even embracing, here at Soulforce, I am more than willing as a follower of Christ to examine that and consider alternatives.

My question for you ds is: any ideas? If, indeed, Christianity seems to be the prevalent theme/religion here a lot of the times, even appearing to be exclusive in that, what can any of us do to invite/open up the door for others to explore/educate/"worship" as it were here with us? I mean, in addition to the Daniels and Zerbies and Scottys that we have, among a few others. You got me thinking even about the Equality Rides, and that they serve a beautifully thought out purpose, and they go to Christian colleges and Universities. I don't know if there are colleges and universities in this country that are religious but non Christian, but an idea on this wavelength is to have ourselves reach out beyond Christian groups as an organization outside of these forums.

Wow, did that make any sense at all? Sounds like gibberish, but not sure how else to say it.

Maybe the answer lies beyond just what we talk about and are willing to do differently or explore here. There is no doubt that many of us are open to all religious beliefs and views here, and get excited about the learning and the connection. Maybe the answer to address this, if there is a need to address it, is beyond here.

Okay, I will stop being confusing now. :)

Has SF confronted religious oppression in non-Christian institutions? I'm guessing no...and understandably, because then that would open them up to all sorts of abuse. Right?

Moderators?

Assuming that is the case, can we really claim to be fighting all religious bigotry?

Let me be clear: I'm not trying to be a jerk. I love SF, but I find there is a disconnect between what it says it is and what it is...and, further, I find that disconnect played out -- intentionally or otherwise -- in the SF Fora.

And, yes frankly, I do have ideas...but I'd like to be clear first in what the facts are.

And, just as an aside, I really don't think we can keep trotting out Daniel, Zerbie and Scotty (et al.) -- no matter how fabulous they are -- as proof positive that we're "diverse". They help make us deep, intelligent, informed, loving, caring, spiritual...and are a part of our diversity, but they do not make us as diverse as we should be...as we purport to be.

[keltic63]

Has SF confronted religious oppression in non-Christian institutions? I'm guessing no...and understandably, because then that would open them up to all sorts of abuse. Right?

Moderators?

Assuming that is the case, can we really claim to be fighting all religious bigotry?

Let me be clear: I'm not trying to be a jerk. I love SF, but I find there is a disconnect between what it says it is and what it is...and, further, I find that disconnect played out -- intentionally or otherwise -- in the SF Fora.



the moderators are NOT soulforce employees, nor are they spokespersons. I am a volunteer because I happen to think the work that soulforce does is important and effective. Your question needs a response from someone in the organization who can speak to it.

and while you're not trying to be a jerk......well, I think it's time you make some suggestions for change rather than just complaining about the poor conditions around here.

[Zerbie]

[
Let me be clear: I'm not trying to be a jerk. I love SF, but I find there is a disconnect between what it says it is and what it is...and, further, I find that disconnect played out -- intentionally or otherwise -- in the SF Fora.


And, just as an aside, I really don't think we can keep trotting out Daniel, Zerbie and Scotty (et al.) -- no matter how fabulous they are -- as proof positive that we're "diverse". They help make us deep, intelligent, informed, loving, caring, spiritual...and are a part of our diversity, but they do not make us as diverse as we should be...as we purport to be.

Are you saying Danny & Scotty & I are just tokens? Frankly, that displeases me.

What are you trying to convey? Or is it just that SF is in effect a christian organization & the 3 of us in fact are nothing but tokens?

[dsdrane]

Yes you were asking, but implicit in your asking was your perceived reality that Soulforce is "too christian". You even anticipated whacking the bee-hive. But whack away...it is a good discussion.

The only thing that should be implied by my question is a question. Please do not presume to know how I perceive "reality". My jury is still out (but it's definitely skeptical...which, you know, is why I asked in the first place).

My experience with Episcopalians leads me to believe that they are indeed Christian although I have been constantly amazed at the pride Episcopalians take in being labled as "unchristian" by their less progressive sisters and brothers of the Church.

I resemble that remark.

I don't think there is any bias here....

Of course you don't. Why would you?

I suggest that people of other persuasions get off their butts and post an interesting text for us to discuss.

Bees like honey, right? Or is it vinegar? Oh, damn!, I can never remember.

I think Soulforce, more than any place, is furtile ground for interfaith discussion. But does that mean that those who want to discuss Christianity have to keep their light under a bushel.

Gawd! Are you sure you're not Christian? Listen, no one is suggesting that there be any bushel keeping under...but just ask yourself: does it have to be an either-or? I said in my very first post that I wasn't interested in squelching any conversations; what I'm interested in is adding to, not editing out. Biblical and other specifically Christian dialogue are fine...but, in the absense of anything else, they tend to define the dialogue and, in so doing, maintain a status quo that we should not be content with.

[dsdrane]

Are you saying Danny & Scotty & I are just tokens? Frankly, that displeases me.

What are you trying to convey? Or is it just that SF is in effect a christian organization & the 3 of us in fact are nothing but tokens?

No, Zerbie, I'm saying some believe we're as diverse as we need to be because "non Christians" like yourself are very much involved.

You guys are as much a part of SF as anyone. What I'm saying is we need more like you.

Am I not being clear?

[Zerbie]

No, Zerbie, I'm saying some believe we're as diverse as we need to be because "non Christians" like yourself are very much involved.

You guys are as much a part of SF as anyone. What I'm saying is we need more like you.

Am I not being clear?

Oh! :p :D Well that's always a welcome comment! :p:D;)
Thanks. :love:

And actually, as to clarity, maybe you could re-phrase the question from: are the fora too christian? to: how can we entice more non-christians to participate and have fun along with us?

Truly - we strike me as quite a diverse little bunch already. But more is always good.

[dsdrane]

the moderators are NOT soulforce employees, nor are they spokespersons. I am a volunteer because I happen to think the work that soulforce does is important and effective. Your question needs a response from someone in the organization who can speak to it.

and while you're not trying to be a jerk......well, I think it's time you make some suggestions for change rather than just complaining about the poor conditions around here.

Don't put words into my mouth, Steve. I said nothing about the "conditions" here being poor; I'm publicly asking if they are, perhaps, lopsided and if they could be less so.

Why, exactly, is this so threatening?

[Zerbie]

I just want to mention that I love all of you.
:love:

Our forum is wonderful. It is not "too" anything, and if it were "too christian" I would certainly not be here.

I'm totally happy to see some Hindus, Jews, more pagans, etc posting here. Come out, come out, wherever you are. :sing::magic::p

[dsdrane]

Could someone on the SF Staff please let me and the rest of us know to what extent and exactly how SF deals with religious oppression of GLBT people in non-Christian institutions -- either with the Equality Ride or by other means?

I raise the question because I fear that, at least here at the SF fora, there is a perception -- real or imagined -- that SF is primarily Christian-focussed, despite the fact that the vision and mission statments would appear to contradict this notion.

[dsdrane]

Under "Soulforce Community Forums", as we all know, there is the sub-heading: Faith and Non-Violence, with the following:

A forum for conversations about Faith, God, Theology, Religion, Spirituality, the Bible, etc. If you have a short story, quote, or poem that illuminates or conveys a truth, you can share those here too. This is also the forum for discussing and studying principles of nonviolence.

[Colored, bolded italics mine.]

I have no problem with the Bible being mentioned in this context, except for the fact that it is the only sacred or religious text explicitly mentioned.

"etc." doesn't even begin to cover all the other ones. (And guess who notices...?)

This isn't about political correctness; this is about putting our money where our mouth is.

Gay people especially should know words matter...even missing ones. Especially missing ones!

If we don't want to mention any and all sacred/religious texts ad nauseum, why don't we just leave out the Bible specifically and just say "sacred/religious texts"?

And while we're at it -- and while I'm suggesting -- why don't we change "Faith and Non-Violence" to "Faith, Inter-Faith, Non-Faith and Non-Violence"?

[scott snedeker]

Could someone on the SF Staff please let me and the rest of us know to what extent and exactly how SF deals with religious oppression of GLBT people in non-Christian institutions -- either with the Equity Ride or by other means?

I raise the question because of fear that, at least here at the SF, there is a perception -- real or imagined -- that SF is primarily is Christian-focussed, despite the fact that the vision and mission statments would appear to contradict this notion.
In the USA, most non-christian spirituality has a very pro-gay attitude.

I think this is because the non-christian paradigms of sprituality are revivals of older spiritual models of faith and are undeniably influenced by current mores of spiritual hygiene.

[Dumbledore]

Honestly, this whole conversation has one big issue for me. It is a discussion about labels, about putting name tags on people. You get the Christian name tag, you get the Hindu name tag, you get the Buddhist name tag, you get the Atheist name tag. Yikes, there are more people in the room with the Christian name tag...maybe we're scaring away the people with the Atheist or Pagan name tags.

Unfortunately as a race we to love run around and frantically label things. It helps us get the chaos under control. But ya know...everyone in the forum defies labeling. We're more complex than the faith traditions or philosophical schools that we're drawn too.

All we need in this forum is to be open to each other in the present moment. Nothing more and nothing less. That sounds Buddhist...shoot...I just applied a label.

[sailaway58]

This conversation has turned from bad to worse. There are so few allies in the fight for equality that to bitch about a sight inspired by Christians with the purpose of fighting for "Freedom for LGBT people from religious & political oppression through the practice of relentless nonviolent resistance" is not only short sighted it is patronizing.

If you want to win the battle for equal right you better get a whole bunch more Christians on your side than the 15 or 20 regular posters on this site.

Go start a Muslim site with the same objective as Soulforce, see how many allies you get.
The fact is there are plenty of non Christian Gay sites that fill the need for those who desire for more diversity.

We don't need more of this or that, insert label, kind of person here. Communities form on the internet and take on personality in the same way a local bar or a church does. Today this is what the site is like, next year? who knows.

Who has done more damage to the gay community than the church? How many gay Christians are excited to find a place they can freely express there love for God and be free to express their fight for equal rights?


Soulforce Mission Statement

The mission of Soulforce is to cut off homophobia at its source -- religious bigotry. Soulforce uses a dynamic "take it to the streets" style of activism to connect the dots between anti-gay religious dogma and the resulting attacks on the lives and civil liberties of LGBT Americans. We apply the creative direct action principles taught by Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. to peacefully resist injustice and demand full equality for LGBT citizens and same-gender families.

The site is fine and bitching about the imbalance of a certain group of people here is offensive.
Christianity is why Soulforce exists, there are lots of battles to choose, chose wisely.

[paul]

No way! I'm way nicer and more self-effacing and self questioning than you are. He had to be talking about me.

well, er, actually u-dog...I was refering to ds. You're Dave, he's David. not that it couldn't have been you :love:.

[andrewlittle]

I'm publicly asking if they are, perhaps, lopsided and if they could be less so. Why, exactly, is this so threatening?

Under "Soulforce Community Forums", as we all know, there is the sub-heading: Faith and Non-Violence, with the following:
A forum for conversations about Faith, God, Theology, Religion, Spirituality, the Bible, etc... "etc." doesn't even begin to cover all the other ones. (And guess who notices...?) ... why don't we just leave out the Bible specifically and just say "sacred/religious texts"?

All we need in this forum is to be open to each other in the present moment. Nothing more and nothing less.

Who has done more damage to the gay community than the [I][Christian] church [in the U.S.]?

I will preface my statement by saying that it is not my intention to single out any particular people, to be condescending, or to support to any particular viewpoint (especially where that support may not be welcome). It is my intent to try to understand the emotional nature of what is being raised.

Could we examine David's question in the first quote above - why is this so threatening?

The thread has evolved into decidedly emotional discussion - which is not necessarily a bad thing, IMO. It seems to be digging deep into territory that is particularly sensitive to many of the posters.

Soulforce has become more than a forum that draws participants from the U.S., even though people from other countries do make up a distinct minority of the posters. Also, within the U.S., there are many faith traditions, and non-faith traditions, that make up what is now a much more deliciously complicated intermingling of cultures than that which has existed before.

It is very true that in the U.S. the Christian church has been the primary vehicle for spiritually and emotionally damaging GLBT - but it is by no means the only car on the dirt road. There are other faith traditions that are represented in our society and that have done similar damage to their present or former GLBT adherents, but the number of those damaged is going to be somewhat proportional to the portion of the population that make up those faith traditions.

It strikes me, then, that there will be more Christian or ex-Christian GLBT folk in the U.S. who have suffered spiritual harm than there are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Certainly not all, but even many of the participants who do not currently identify as Christian were Christian when they were hurt deeply by their faith tradition. It is more likely, then, that Christians or ex-Christians will find their way to SF and become engaged.

In my mind, then, the current make-up of the SF fora is really quite logical.

One of the main principles of ethics, however, requires that we wrestle with "what is" as opposed to "what ought to be".

IF, and I mean IF, some people who have been damaged by a faith tradition other than Christian do not find a place of nurturing and healing here on the SF fora, is that the way it ought to be? Are there some steps that we can take collectively that will throw our arms wide open to all GLBT folk who have suffered spiritual violence AND those allies who have been damaged because this violence exists (a witness to violence is a victim of violence)?

I second the change from "the Bible, etc." to "sacred/religious texts". I also embrace any effort - whether it be in society, church or SF - that causes us to take another look at the underlying or implicit actions we take.

By way of example:
Churches often pride themselves on, and highlight in their literature, being "welcoming communities" and do so, in their minds, very honestly. It is not uncommon, however, for new people to walk into these churches and find groups of people congregated in the pews or gathered around a table together. The implicit actions of the congregation do not line up with the stated intent, because it requires that the new person take the initiative to approach the group - to risk seeing if they can be allowed "in". This may not be difficult for some, but for someone who has been spiritually or emotionally damaged by a church, this is a very tall order. The end result is that church continues to delude itself that it is welcoming, while turning away those they say they welcoming because it takes too much courage on an individual's part to break into the "in group". In trying to address this within a church, the first reaction is always a reaction against the suggestion - denial comes first.

On that kind of basis, can the people of Soulforce collectively do some of the self-examination and critical evaluation needed to make sure that the implicit atmosphere of SF is not out of touch with the stated objective? And can they do so by first trying to decode the signals that are raising emotional responses?

This effort is integral to any process of non-violent reconciliation, and is a healthy task for any organization.

It is, also, quite common to "kill the messenger" - we might want to consider if that is always a necessary step.

[paul]

[SIZE="1"]


By way of example:
Churches often pride themselves on, and highlight in their literature, being "welcoming communities" and do so, in their minds, very honestly. It is not uncommon, however, for new people to walk into these churches and find groups of people congregated in the pews or gathered around a table together. The implicit actions of the congregation do not line up with the stated intent, because it requires that the new person take the initiative to approach the group - to risk seeing if they can be allowed "in". This may not be difficult for some, but for someone who has been spiritually or emotionally damaged by a church, this is a very tall order. The end result is that church continues to delude itself that it is welcoming, while turning away those they say they welcoming because it takes too much courage on an individual's part to break into the "in group". In trying to address this within a church, the first reaction is always a reaction against the suggestion - denial comes first.
.

This is by no means intended to be a panacea, but I think it's an simple fix for much that we have discussed here. Join the welcome wagon. Consider responding to people when they do venture to walk through our doors at the "Hello, my name is..." thread.

[Dumbledore]

[SIZE="1"]
IF, and I mean IF, some people who have been damaged by a faith tradition other than Christian do not find a place of nurturing and healing here on the SF fora, is that the way it ought to be? Are there some steps that we can take collectively that will throw our arms wide open to all GLBT folk who have suffered spiritual violence AND those allies who have been damaged because this violence exists (a witness to violence is a victim of violence)?

I second the change from "the Bible, etc." to "sacred/religious texts". I also embrace any effort - whether it be in society, church or SF - that causes us to take another look at the underlying or implicit actions we take.


I think your suggestion to change "the Bible" to "sacred/religious/philosophical texts" (can't leave out Nietzsche) is an excellent one and does need to happen given the commitment to include all spiritual and philosophical traditions.

I wanted to get more tangible with this discussion. One of the organizations reaching out to LGBT Muslims is Al Faiha. You will notice that Soulforce is not listed on their list of resources:

http://www.al-fatiha.org/nav_resources.htm

Maybe we could approach them and ask to have Soulforce listed on their resource site.

This is getting into uncomfortable territory because have any of you conceived of what it would be like to conduct relentless non-violent resistance directed toward the oppression of LGBT people in the Islamic world. What would happen if Soulforce included some Muslim Mosques on the Equality Ride? Do we have the courage for this?

[scott snedeker]

to bitch about a sight inspired by Christians ..... is not only short sighted it is patronizing.

If you want to win the battle for equal right you better get a whole bunch more Christians on your side than the 15 or 20 regular posters on this site.

Go start a Muslim site with the same objective as Soulforce, see how many allies you get.
The fact is there are plenty of non Christian Gay sites that fill the need for those who desire for more diversity.

We don't need more of this or that, insert label, kind of person here.


Who has done more damage to the gay community than the church? How many gay Christians are excited to find a place they can freely express there love for God and be free to express their fight for equal rights?
[SIZE="4"]The site is fine and bitching about the imbalance of a certain group of people here is offensive.
Christianity is why Soulforce exists, there are lots of battles to choose, chose wisely.

Soulforce exists as a beautiful creation in reaction to an ugly homophobic distortion of christianity. So yes Christianity is indeed why soulforce was created.

The beauty of a christian creating an entity to change christianity to be closer to the teachings of Christ needs to be shown off! I particularly see this beauty because it is self-healing of the faith and mirrors my own personal inner victories.

I now suspect that my fictional "Stewards of the Love of Christ" in my short story/thread, Transformation is a subconscious parallel.

Sometimes patronizing leads to change, a good change. Fear of other than christian belief paradigms is easily overcome with familiarity. Familiarity leads to comfort, and comfort leads to evaporation of personal boundaries and barriers. What's left then is love. :love:

This is the heart of being pagan (like me), being christian (like you) or buddhist, or.....being the best potential you can as a human.

To win the battle we must first win this battle within each of us, just as Christ, Ghandi and Dr. King undoubtedly have.

For now I need my label as a pagan but I find lately that I need it less and less. For me it is a spiritual affirmation of my nature which goes one step further in the progression from fear to love which is sanctifying love and friendship with passionate intimacy and love-bonding that forms a love circle. Being in a love circle is like being inside a joy that is a tangible aura. I believe this is awarenss of Holy Spirit, God, Christ, Pan or whatever label you give it. :cool:

My point is (other than a moment of sharing reverie) that if a label connects you to good spiritual energy, then it is a good thing. I feel that proudly stating "I'm a Christian because it means I strive to love unconditionally without judgement through the teachings of Christ Who is the love I feel all around me" cannot be criticized. I certainly cannot, It's too pagan! :lol:

[u-dog]

Soulforce exists as a beautiful creation in reaction to an ugly homophobic distortion of christianity. So yes Christianity is indeed why soulforce was created.

The beauty of a christian creating an entity to change christianity to be closer to the teachings of Christ needs to be shown off! I particularly see this beauty because it is self-healing of the faith and mirrors my own personal inner victories.

I now suspect that my fictional "Stewards of the Love of Christ" in my short story/thread, Transformation is a subconscious parallel.

Sometimes patronizing leads to change, a good change. Fear of other than christian belief paradigms is easily overcome with familiarity. Familiarity leads to comfort, and comfort leads to evaporation of personal boundaries and barriers. What's left then is love. :love:

This is the heart of being pagan (like me), being christian (like you) or buddhist, or.....being the best potential you can as a human.

To win the battle we must first win this battle within each of us, just as Christ, Ghandi and Dr. King undoubtedly have.

For now I need my label as a pagan but I find lately that I need it less and less. For me it is a spiritual affirmation of my nature which goes one step further in the progression from fear to love which is sanctifying love and friendship with passionate intimacy and love-bonding that forms a love circle. Being in a love circle is like being inside a joy that is a tangible aura. I believe this is awarenss of Holy Spirit, God, Christ, Pan or whatever label you give it. :cool:

My point is (other than a moment of sharing reverie) that if a label connects you to good spiritual energy, then it is a good thing. I feel that proudly stating "I'm a Christian because it means I strive to love unconditionally without judgement through the teachings of Christ Who is the love I feel all around me" cannot be criticized. I certainly cannot, It's too pagan! :lol:


Ash,

If you get any more wonderful... light will start to come out of all your pores and orafices. This Christian wants to thank you for being here and being you! :love: (Just goes to remind me that Christ shows up in the MOST unexpected places and forms)

U-dog

[Zerbie]

Ash,

If you get any more wonderful... light will start to come out of all your pores and orafices. This Christian wants to thank you for being here and being you! :love: (Just goes to remind me that Christ shows up in the MOST unexpected places and forms)

U-dog

You think everybody you like is christian. :p:p:p

***

I think everybody I like is NOT christian.

We go together, like ramalamalamakadingadadingadong?? :confused::confused::confused:

:lol::lol::lol:

[dsdrane]

I will preface my statement by saying that it is not my intention to single out any particular people, to be condescending, or to support to any particular viewpoint (especially where that support may not be welcome). It is my intent to try to understand the emotional nature of what is being raised.

Could we examine David's question in the first quote above - why is this so threatening?

The thread has evolved into decidedly emotional discussion - which is not necessarily a bad thing, IMO. It seems to be digging deep into territory that is particularly sensitive to many of the posters.

Soulforce has become more than a forum that draws participants from the U.S., even though people from other countries do make up a distinct minority of the posters. Also, within the U.S., there are many faith traditions, and non-faith traditions, that make up what is now a much more deliciously complicated intermingling of cultures than that which has existed before.

It is very true that in the U.S. the Christian church has been the primary vehicle for spiritually and emotionally damaging GLBT - but it is by no means the only car on the dirt road. There are other faith traditions that are represented in our society and that have done similar damage to their present or former GLBT adherents, but the number of those damaged is going to be somewhat proportional to the portion of the population that make up those faith traditions.

It strikes me, then, that there will be more Christian or ex-Christian GLBT folk in the U.S. who have suffered spiritual harm than there are Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. Certainly not all, but even many of the participants who do not currently identify as Christian were Christian when they were hurt deeply by their faith tradition. It is more likely, then, that Christians or ex-Christians will find their way to SF and become engaged.

In my mind, then, the current make-up of the SF fora is really quite logical.

One of the main principles of ethics, however, requires that we wrestle with "what is" as opposed to "what ought to be".

IF, and I mean IF, some people who have been damaged by a faith tradition other than Christian do not find a place of nurturing and healing here on the SF fora, is that the way it ought to be? Are there some steps that we can take collectively that will throw our arms wide open to all GLBT folk who have suffered spiritual violence AND those allies who have been damaged because this violence exists (a witness to violence is a victim of violence)?

I second the change from "the Bible, etc." to "sacred/religious texts". I also embrace any effort - whether it be in society, church or SF - that causes us to take another look at the underlying or implicit actions we take.

By way of example:
Churches often pride themselves on, and highlight in their literature, being "welcoming communities" and do so, in their minds, very honestly. It is not uncommon, however, for new people to walk into these churches and find groups of people congregated in the pews or gathered around a table together. The implicit actions of the congregation do not line up with the stated intent, because it requires that the new person take the initiative to approach the group - to risk seeing if they can be allowed "in". This may not be difficult for some, but for someone who has been spiritually or emotionally damaged by a church, this is a very tall order. The end result is that church continues to delude itself that it is welcoming, while turning away those they say they welcoming because it takes too much courage on an individual's part to break into the "in group". In trying to address this within a church, the first reaction is always a reaction against the suggestion - denial comes first.

On that kind of basis, can the people of Soulforce collectively do some of the self-examination and critical evaluation needed to make sure that the implicit atmosphere of SF is not out of touch with the stated objective? And can they do so by first trying to decode the signals that are raising emotional responses?

This effort is integral to any process of non-violent reconciliation, and is a healthy task for any organization.

It is, also, quite common to "kill the messenger" - we might want to consider if that is always a necessary step.

Thank you, Andy. This is perfect. :applause:

[scott snedeker]

Ash,

If you get any more wonderful... light will start to come out of all your pores and orafices.


But I asked for a BUD Light! :lol::lol::lol::lol:



This Christian wants to thank you for being here and being you! :love: (Just goes to remind me that Christ shows up in the MOST unexpected places and forms)

U-dog

Back Atcha! U-Dog! You're a very special being. Just another confirmation of what Abraham calls the Law of Attraction.

Quite the flattering comparison too! Because if Christ were to reappear today, I believe he would undoubtedly be mistaken for a radical faerie. :dove::flower::cookie::rainbow::love:

[Vanessa White]

I am typically a person who runs away screaming from hostility, or confrontation, or anything that makes me the least bit uncomfortable.

However, these forums have changed all of that within me. Now, I welcome it as a way to learn about myself and for us to learn about one another.

I am wondering, however, why has this thread caused such strong,upset emotion among some of us?

I have read David's words to mean, and ds, please correct me if I am wrong: "This is what observe, this is what I see as inconsistent between word and deed; is there something we could do differently to show ourselves to be open to all types of faith and nonfaith dialogue (within the guidelines of course) without seeming almost exclusively Christian?" I have not read his words to mean, it is not okay to be Christian here. Or that any of us who do consider ourselves to be Christian, have done it wrong, or that we shouldn't feel pride and joy in our Christianity.

I am not posting this because I feel compelled to defend anyone in particular. But, I don't feel any offense here. I don't know that we are doing anything wrong, and SF can indeed, like all of us, be a work in progress. The question is, how can we do what we do even better, and more inclusively? The prevalence of Christians and Christianity on this website might NOT be the reason that some of other faiths don't come around.

But, on the other hand, it may be.

SO?

So we try to figure out a way to engage new people, or help them to feel welcomed even before they get to "Hello My Name is...." That is why I posed the question about the Equality Rides. I don't know if we have the courage to go to a mosque as a way to reach out and address oppression. But it would help if we could at least educate ourselves and maybe dialogue with those that could give us some insight into other faiths or nonfaith groups that could be targets of outreach or support for us.

:love::love::love::love::love:

[dsdrane]

I have read David's words to mean, and ds, please correct me if I am wrong: "This is what observe, this is what I see as inconsistent between word and deed; is there something we could do differently to show ourselves to be open to all types of faith and nonfaith dialogue (within the guidelines of course) without seeming almost exclusively Christian?" I have not read his words to mean, it is not okay to be Christian here. Or that any of us who do consider ourselves to be Christian, have done it wrong, or that we shouldn't feel pride and joy in our Christianity.

I am not posting this because I feel compelled to defend anyone in particular. But, I don't feel any offense here. I don't know that we are doing anything wrong, and SF can indeed, like all of us, be a work in progress. The question is, how can we do what we do even better, and more inclusively?

Just like the Body of Christ is not a fait accompli, neither is this site, this organization, nor these fora. We are always in the state of becoming.

Asking how we can be more right does not presuppose that we are currently wrong.

It's called growth.

[antonyh]

One Jew present and accounted for! :wave:
I'm of the Reform variety.



:dove:

We're glad you are here...bring your friends :)

[ladyinred]

Here's what I think: just because someone has a high degree of realization in the spiritual realm, doesn't mean that they are up to snuff in other areas. Case in point: we really shoudn't expect the Dalai Lama to approve of gay sexuality. He is a monk. And concerns himself with monks and their pursuit of enlightenment, peace etc. He may have a great amount to say about how to achieve happiness etc, but he doesn't have the same window of understanding concerning the relative reality of being gay. No matter how 'smart' we think he is, his culture doesn't supports this kind of understanding. Likewise, few of us have an understanding of what it means to discipline ourselves in meditative practice for many hours every day. And we don't live in a culture which supports this kind of activity. If you want to do that here in America, you are considered somewhat odd, if not nuts Well according to some past statements by Pat Robertson, practicing yoga is a sin.

[ladyinred]

Here's what I think: just because someone has a high degree of realization in the spiritual realm, doesn't mean that they are up to snuff in other areas. Case in point: we really shoudn't expect the Dalai Lama to approve of gay sexuality. He is a monk. And concerns himself with monks and their pursuit of enlightenment, peace etc. He may have a great amount to say about how to achieve happiness etc, but he doesn't have the same window of understanding concerning the relative reality of being gay. No matter how 'smart' we think he is, his culture doesn't supports this kind of understanding. Likewise, few of us have an understanding of what it means to discipline ourselves in meditative practice for many hours every day. And we don't live in a culture which supports this kind of activity. If you want to do that here in America, you are considered somewhat odd, if not nuts Well according to some past statements by Pat Robertson, practicing yoga is a sin. Of course while people like Pat Robertson are screaming Christian persecution, they have no qualms over running rough- shod over the rights of others ,(including more moderate Christians..... and then again he didn't see a problem with people blowing up abortion clinics and harming others because of their "religious convictions"), to practice their own faith in their own way. As long as someone is not using religion as a catalyst to harm other people I see no problem with others practicing their own faith or whatever, whether they are moslem budhist, Hindu, Christian , jewish ,pagan etc

[tdogg]

Just a thought...

When you think of the small number of regular posters here, it's a fairly diverse group. We represent a good variety of spiritual beliefs, cultures, backgrounds and experiences. That is why there is no lack of interesting conversation here.

When you look at the big picture - regular, occasional and one-time posters, maybe the diversity doesn't seem to be as wide spread. That could be due to the fact that SF as an organization appears to be religious-based (if nothing else but for the objective of ending religious oppression of GLBT) and as most people are going to give the home page a quick scan before progressing to the forums, they may not be getting in enough research to see that it's diverse.

Another fact is that Christian religions make up a large percentage of spiritual beliefs across the world, so no matter how diverse we might be spiritually, so called "Christians" will normally make up the largest percentage of a inclusive group.

It's funny, as 10 people can read over the home page of SF and come away with 8 or 10 perceptions as to what type of organization it is. I never felt it was a "Christian" organization, I came away feeling that it was inclusive and based on ending all religious oppression of GLBT. I could see how someone could think it was a Christian site IF the person quickly scanned the home page and didn't bother with researching it.

Suggestions? None really, as I don't have a perception that this is a Christian organization.

Too Christian? No, my opinion is that amongst the regular forum posters, there is great diversity. And if the threads are titled right, those who don't wish to participate in a specific topic, don't have to. So if a topic is too Christian, you can scroll to the next one. I see that most topics aren't spiritually inclined, and many spiritual topics are not "Christian" necessarily.

(Side note - perhaps many "Christians" place their faith high on the priority list, so spiritual threads lean towards christian. However, others may not have spirituality so high, which could result in topics starters that aren't religious. Which may mean that most of the religious/spiritual threads are started by Christians?)

[pnggrad79]

Fully cognizant that this is a potential beehive-whacker, I would like to ask the following question:

Have the Soulforce fora become "too Christian"?

What would Gandhi say?

We recently welcomed a new participant who is Muslim. I was thrilled, but we haven't (to my knowledge) heard anything further from him. And where are our Jews, hmm? Or Hindus? Or more (...here's a shout-out to you, Scotty!) Faeries?

It's not that I want to squelch the Bible discussions, necessarily, or otherwise inhibit conversations; but, if we really are Soulforce's (unofficial) Fora, shouldn't we be making a more concerted effort to be inter-faith?

Discuss.


Since this thread is 3 pages long, I doubt seriously I am going to say something new or original, however, it bears repeating.... Gandhi would welcome anyone. My class just finished watching the movie and I am convinced that whether a person was pagan, faerie, atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Christian or whatever, he would have welcomed them as children of God on a different path. He lived his life to embody this principle.

It amazes me that there isn't any more non-cooperation going on in the gay community. Gandhi brought down the British empire with it. Surely we could do it if we put aside our differences in light of what we all share-extreme hatred and prejudice because of our sexuality.

Until we embrace all, we stay divided and let the "British empire" continue to enslave us, deny us our rights guaranteed by our Constitution, and belittle our relationships.