sexual stereotypes

[tymejumper]

This really bothered me today at work.

We were talking about football and I mentioned that one of the players on my daughters high school football team was a young woman. I also said that there were several female wrestlers. Boy did everyone have issues with that! One co-worker said that there was no reason a girl should be in sports like that, she was not making firends after all and was only there to make a point(whatever the hell that meant!) and my boss, whom seemed to be open minded, said that he would encourage his daughter to play softball or volleyball, a sport for women. I felt my blood pressure rise! I told them I felt that if a child or person wanted to play or do something that they should be encouraged to do so, if it made them happy.

They then asked me if my son wanted to be in pom-poms would I allow that? I told them of course I would, I would talk to him and explain that others may tease him but if he wanted to do it I would suport him. They could not believe it! They basically stated in not so many words that I didnt have good morals because I chose to raise my children as children and humans and not place them into sexual stereotypes. I was really upset that another woman would even say she would not allow her daughter to wrestle as it was boys sport. After all, it has not been that long since we have been chattle and not allowed to vote! ERRRRRR!!!:mad:
Becuase men would not allow us to!:mad:

So as a society have we not learned anything? Am I just odd or do others feel the same way about their children and themselves? Shouldn't we all enjoy the hobbys of our choosing and not worry how others will percieve it?

My wife said that as long as people do not accept gay people, they will have sexual sterotypes and that people will worry that the types of hobbys they chose will cause others to see them and gay or lesbian. Make sense to me,(see why I married her? she's pretty wise!)

Had to vent and hope others feel as I do!

Much Metta,

Rebekah:)

[scott snedeker]

Come to a Radical faerie sanctuary for a gathering and you will see every expression of gender and other identity. It's beautiful!

[andrewlittle]

This really bothered me today at work.

... I mentioned that one of the players on my daughters high school football team was a young woman... several female wrestlers. Boy did everyone have issues with that! ...no reason a girl should be in sports like that, she was not making firends after all and was only there to make a point(whatever the hell that meant!) ...
That means, basically, that the only reason a girl would play a "boys" sport would be to be a spoiler - it certainly couldn't be because she WANTED to play football or wrestle - hell no, it could only be because she was being radical, an evil feminist or "uppity", and stepping out of her place. That is, of course, unless she was, well, you know, one of THOSE girls - you know, NOT REALLY a girl.

Perhaps these folks dream of their daughters living into the classic notion of womanhood and being clubbed over the head before being taken off to be ravaged and put into domestic slavery. They may even have euphoric visions of their sons proving their manhood by getting slutty young virgins pregnant.

Pile of rubbish.

They then asked me if my son wanted to be in pom-poms would I allow that?
This, of course, is the classic comeback wherein they assume you wouldn't want your son playing with dollies or something equally as sissy - if you know what I mean - wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

I told them of course I would...
Which is why you're a good mom.

... I would talk to him and explain that others may tease him but if he wanted to do it I would suport him.
Translation: that he would have to put up with shit from assholes like you.

They could not believe it! They basically stated in not so many words that I didnt have good morals because I chose to raise my children as children and humans and not place them into sexual stereotypes. I was really upset that another woman would even say she would not allow her daughter to wrestle as it was boys sport. After all, it has not been that long since we have been chattle and not allowed to vote! ERRRRRR!!!:mad:
Becuase men would not allow us to!:mad:
Here, I am going to take a little exception - but not really.

Not only is it men (although that is, of course, the origin) but also women who insist on continuing these damn stereotypes. Many women also maintain this attitude because it has been in their best interests to play the "traditional" gender roles - translation: they've bought into and adamantly continue this crap because they perceive it be good for them - to hell with young women coming behind them, because they might as well be as miserable in their roles as they are.

So as a society have we not learned anything?
Nope, not yet. At least not for most.

Am I just odd or do others feel the same way about their children and themselves?
Yes, you are indeed odd - delightfully, radically odd in that you would rather see your children authentic and well-adjusted than conforming and emotionally buggered up. What the hell is wrong with you? You some kind of nutjob, or what? My kids will be as maladjusted and conformist as I am, thank you very much.

My wife said that as long as people do not accept gay people, they will have sexual sterotypes and that people will worry that the types of hobbys they chose will cause others to see them and gay or lesbian. Make sense to me,(see why I married her? she's pretty wise!)
Actually, I think it goes way deeper than that. I think that as long as people will not accept that they fall on a gender continuum because it scares the bejesus out of them, they will continue to not accept GLBT folk. It is just like the ancient Israelites ceremonially putting their "sins" on the back of a goat and slapping it on the ass so it will run out into the wilderness and die. It comes from their own feelings of insecurity, and they just lay it on the backs of anyone who doesn't live inauthentically the way they do.

Bugger 'em. They're the real pansy-assed lightweights.

Not that I have an opinion, mind you.

[labguy22]

I have to admit that I recently fell prey to this kind of messed up thinking and I felt like crap afterward. I had seen a skateboard in the back of a coworkers truck and had asked her if her son used the local skate park. She responded by saying that her son was only three; her ten year old daughter was who owned the skate board. :x
I don't consider myself to be sexist, but I sure felt like one after that comment. Something as simple as that, yet I really kicked myself afterward by assuming that a skateboard = boy.:headbang:
The coworker didn't seem to take offense and added that her daughter was a "tomboy", but I apologized and told her I thought I had made a sexist remark.
Lesson learned and hopefully a bit wiser today for it.

[awediot]

This really bothered me today at work.

We were talking about football and I mentioned that one of the players on my daughters high school football team was a young woman. I also said that there were several female wrestlers. Boy did everyone have issues with that! One co-worker said that there was no reason a girl should be in sports like that, she was not making firends after all and was only there to make a point(whatever the hell that meant!) and my boss, whom seemed to be open minded, said that he would encourage his daughter to play softball or volleyball, a sport for women. I felt my blood pressure rise! I told them I felt that if a child or person wanted to play or do something that they should be encouraged to do so, if it made them happy.

They then asked me if my son wanted to be in pom-poms would I allow that? I told them of course I would, I would talk to him and explain that others may tease him but if he wanted to do it I would suport him. They could not believe it! They basically stated in not so many words that I didnt have good morals because I chose to raise my children as children and humans and not place them into sexual stereotypes. I was really upset that another woman would even say she would not allow her daughter to wrestle as it was boys sport. After all, it has not been that long since we have been chattle and not allowed to vote! ERRRRRR!!!:mad:
Becuase men would not allow us to!:mad:

So as a society have we not learned anything? Am I just odd or do others feel the same way about their children and themselves? Shouldn't we all enjoy the hobbys of our choosing and not worry how others will percieve it?

My wife said that as long as people do not accept gay people, they will have sexual sterotypes and that people will worry that the types of hobbys they chose will cause others to see them and gay or lesbian. Make sense to me,(see why I married her? she's pretty wise!)

Had to vent and hope others feel as I do!

Much Metta,

Rebekah:)
It is tough to be singled out. Looking after the well being of a child must be vastly more so... I'm sorry to hear that the people you sound fairly close with could so thoughtlessly hurt you and more so, yours... But...

We have to accept that stereotypes are the result of actual norms... We can discuss if females are hard wired to nurture a family and are by nature geared to further the human race through domestic skills, but since science lacks that finesse, we can observe culture and sociology, and we see a resounding YES... Just as men are (stereo) typically the providers, the builders, protectors and fighters... These roles, and how they play out (dolls, cooking, organizing, beautifying vs. competition, sport, hunting, construction and defense) are not merely the result of arbitrary gender bias and cultural conditioning... The physical, intellectual and emotional differences between men and women have formed to serve specific roles...

Now, that said, our failing is to recognize the exceptions to the rule... Stereotyping, categorization, classifications, generalizations and blanket statements allow us to simply move on and not perpetually bog down in the minutia of details... A big picture is a wonderful view to have as long as we can pause long enough to see through our stereotypes to the unique individual on the otherside...When we don't, we begin to project moral judgment that is way out of proportion, and judge others for no reason only to justify ourselves in the shallowest ways... We cannot blame the stars or condition of civilization for the fact that most girls do not want to wrestle and most boys do not want to look after a baby... Thats life... Perhaps one day we who present the world an exception, will be seen as the spice of life and show a grander meaning that even biological, evolutionary civility has yet to embrace. But for now, we can be strengthened and justified in just keeping them on their dull and myopic toes...

[Gregory_de_Bois]

This really bothered me today at work.

We were talking about football and I mentioned that one of the players on my daughters high school football team was a young woman. I also said that there were several female wrestlers. Boy did everyone have issues with that! One co-worker said that there was no reason a girl should be in sports like that, she was not making firends after all and was only there to make a point(whatever the hell that meant!) and my boss, whom seemed to be open minded, said that he would encourage his daughter to play softball or volleyball, a sport for women. I felt my blood pressure rise! I told them I felt that if a child or person wanted to play or do something that they should be encouraged to do so, if it made them happy.

They then asked me if my son wanted to be in pom-poms would I allow that? I told them of course I would, I would talk to him and explain that others may tease him but if he wanted to do it I would suport him. They could not believe it! They basically stated in not so many words that I didnt have good morals because I chose to raise my children as children and humans and not place them into sexual stereotypes. I was really upset that another woman would even say she would not allow her daughter to wrestle as it was boys sport. After all, it has not been that long since we have been chattle and not allowed to vote! ERRRRRR!!!:mad:
Becuase men would not allow us to!:mad:

So as a society have we not learned anything? Am I just odd or do others feel the same way about their children and themselves? Shouldn't we all enjoy the hobbys of our choosing and not worry how others will percieve it?

My wife said that as long as people do not accept gay people, they will have sexual sterotypes and that people will worry that the types of hobbys they chose will cause others to see them and gay or lesbian. Make sense to me,(see why I married her? she's pretty wise!)

Had to vent and hope others feel as I do!

Much Metta,

Rebekah:)

Obviously, they know NOTHING of Ancient Sparta and Crete, where the men and women would compete together. Goodness. People think that Modern Western Morals are the only ones that have been around forever. They sometimes need to FREAKING RESEARCH!!! Oh, how I pity the uneducated masses.:'(:love::pray::cool::D

[Vanessa White]

Gender stereotyping, that is. Once we find out if we are having a boy or a girl when expecting a baby, the categorizing begins. Not where all of us are concerned, mind you. But, I still get caught up in the blue vs. pink for new babies, not so much with toys. But I have been socialized, as most of us have, all of our lives to believe there is one set of expectations for men, and another for women.

And, sadly, many of us still believe that to be the reality.

Our daughter enjoys everything from playing in the mud, to wearing dresses and tights, to riding a scooter to dancing ballet. She has had bruises from ankle to forehead since she could walk, because there is nothing she won't try (we are both nervous for the coming years with that attitude). But it is also because of how we have raised her, that she can do ANYTHING she wants to do in life, in terms of interests, abilities, careers, aspirations. We have never limited it by gender expectations, and now, neither does she. :)

[u-dog]

My sister dressed my neice in nothing but blue jeans and overalls and other practical clothes, thinking she was being such a good mother and feminist. Until the day (at age 4) when my neice rebelled. In a store shopping for clothes she dropped everything, put her hands on her hips and said "Mommy you make me so mad! You think YOU are the only one who is allowed to be PRETTY!"

They left the store with a lovely pink dress with lace and never looked back:D

She now has a baby of her own. A boy. I have no idea how he is dressed.

[sailaway58]

I wrestled in High School and the last thing I would want is my daughter with any of those guys, let alone in a double grapevine or anything like it.
To think there wouldn't be sexual tension as a major focus is naive.
I played Judo as an adult and worked out with women but competing against women would have been ludicrous. I can't even imagine why this would need an explanation or discussion.
Sometimes it's best to leave things alone. Could a woman ever beat a guy? Not if they stay within weight classes.

Of course this wouldn't be the first time I was wrong:

More Girls Take Part in High School Wrestling (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/17/nyregion/17wrestle.html?ex=1329368400&en=d6c6b6c01513013d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)




.

[tymejumper]

Come to a Radical faerie sanctuary for a gathering and you will see every expression of gender and other identity. It's beautiful!



I don't know how to find any Pagan gatherings here in Michigan.

[tymejumper]

Not only is it men (although that is, of course, the origin) but also women who insist on continuing these damn stereotypes.


I am sorry, I was not trying to bash men out there. It is true, women don't help much by continuing with the bullshit roles we force our sons into, and our daughters. "We want sensitive men" straight women often wine, but then when they have a chance to raise some, they choose to make sure they are NOT sensitive! It seems pretty self defeating to me.

[tymejumper]

Obviously, they know NOTHING of Ancient Sparta and Crete, where the men and women would compete together. Goodness. People think that Modern Western Morals are the only ones that have been around forever. They sometimes need to FREAKING RESEARCH!!! Oh, how I pity the uneducated masses.:'(:love::pray::cool::D



Up till about 100 years ago, boys were put in reds and pinks because it was a stronger color, being closer to the color of blood=warriors. Girls wore blue, it was considered more delicate! :lol:

[tymejumper]

My sister dressed my neice in nothing but blue jeans and overalls and other practical clothes, thinking she was being such a good mother and feminist. Until the day (at age 4) when my neice rebelled. In a store shopping for clothes she dropped everything, put her hands on her hips and said "Mommy you make me so mad! You think YOU are the only one who is allowed to be PRETTY!"

They left the store with a lovely pink dress with lace and never looked back:D




I have 2 girls, both raised the same. One is a complete feminist and the other is a Barbie Girl! The Bearbie Girl recently told me that she wants a pink Harley when she grows up........................:eek::lol::lol::lol:

[tymejumper]

.
Sometimes it's best to leave things alone. Could a woman ever beat a guy?



Celtic women fought along side the troops in battle. Bodega, a celtic woman actually lead her deceased husbands warriors to battle against the Romans because he had trusted them and been murdered. She went to talk to them and they raped both her and her daughters. She was so angry she all but ahnilated them. She is still remembered to this day becuase she was such a feirce and strong warrior. There are females all through history that have beaten men at the art of war and other things.

Females of all species are much more vicious than males. This is especially true of female murderers and serial killers. They commit the most violent and unspeakable crimes that you could think of becuase the female is so vicious when riled.

I think sometimes, at least from watching my son, that the tetosterone rage takes over and all rational thought ceases. Men are wired genetically to win and focus on their strength to do so. Women don't have as much tetosterone and so they don't get that whole rage thing, they still stay rationalized to some degree and that is what gives a woman an edge.

So yes, a male may be more muscled and physically stronger, but a woman certainly can have a fair chance at beating a male in male sports. I would think a female 2nd degree blackbelt would be just the same as a male 2nd degree blackbelt. That does not rely on strengh and size.

[tdogg]

Billie Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs

Yes, us girls can beat the boys. It takes more brains and determination perhaps, but it can and is done. Just look at horse racing. Female horses are considered the more delicate species and are normally raced only against other females. But this year, we have a filly (female) winning the most grueling race in our country against all males. And top males at that. (Rags To Riches winning the Belmont Stakes, at a mile and a half.) Determination and heart kept her in the lead to the finish line.

It may take an extraordinary female to beat a male in sports. But isn't there something extraordinary in all of us, if we only allow it to shine through? :love::love:

[awediot]

Billie Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs

Yes, us girls can beat the boys. It takes more brains and determination perhaps, but it can and is done. Just look at horse racing. Female horses are considered the more delicate species and are normally raced only against other females. But this year, we have a filly (female) winning the most grueling race in our country against all males. And top males at that. (Rags To Riches winning the Belmont Stakes, at a mile and a half.) Determination and heart kept her in the lead to the finish line.

It may take an extraordinary female to beat a male in sports. But isn't there something extraordinary in all of us, if we only allow it to shine through? :love::love:
Hi tdogg... hope alls well as another holiday season encroaches...

Billy Jean King and Bobby Riggs? ...The fact that we need to go back thirty years to find an example of a woman beating a man in direct sport competition only goes to validate why it is such an entrenched
"stereotype"... The few cases brought up in the thread do just that. On average women are less physically geared to dominating this planet... Big deal... That is no insult...

Perhaps a better example is that now college enrollment is mostly female.

There certainly is no reason why stereotypes should keep anyone from doing whatever they want to the best of their ability. But to think it is merely culture that keeps females from being an arm wrestling world champ, or men from having babies, is asinine... Some aspects are arbitrarily established an to be questioned, but the want to eliminate gender distinction all together is fanaticism...

[tymejumper]

. But to think it is merely culture that keeps females from being an arm wrestling world champ, or men from having babies, is asinine.



Of course we would not expect a 5 foot 2 inch, 125 pound woman to play on a field with 6 foot 4 , 250 pound man Rugby. However, if you can safely compete with others why should you let things stop you? There are many sports that rely on strategy, body position, or the use of certain moves that have nothing to do with stength and weight. I know as a rehab therapist, that males do have more muscle weight and can physically lift more of their body weight than women, but I do not recall the exact percentiles. To discriminate merely on sex alone for anything is inapropriate and there is no reason for it.

[RedneckDyke]

Celtic women fought along side the troops in battle. Bodega, a celtic woman actually lead her deceased husbands warriors to battle against the Romans because he had trusted them and been murdered. She went to talk to them and they raped both her and her daughters. She was so angry she all but ahnilated them. She is still remembered to this day becuase she was such a feirce and strong warrior.

.

Boudicca indeed kicked some major Roman butt. I figure if I ever buy a boat I'll name her Boudicca. There is a statue of her in her war chariot in London I think.

This thread makes me think of that Dobson book Bringing Up Boys. It says you're supposed to play rough and tumble games with your son so he'll have good manly models and not turn gay. I laugh about this. If playing football with the boys and Barbies with the girls kept them straight, how do you explain lipstick lesbians and butchly biker gay guys? (-:

I played Barbies as a kid. Of course, it was "Teddy Bear is a Rabid Grizzly and Attacks Camper BArbie".......(-:

[ladyinred]

Good point, by the way I carry a ton of lipstick in my purse...LOL:lol::lol: Can't leave home without it.

[ladyinred]

Of course we would not expect a 5 foot 2 inch, 125 pound woman to play on a field with 6 foot 4 , 250 pound man Rugby. However, if you can safely compete with others why should you let things stop you? There are many sports that rely on strategy, body position, or the use of certain moves that have nothing to do with stength and weight. I know as a rehab therapist, that males do have more muscle weight and can physically lift more of their body weight than women, but I do not recall the exact percentiles. To discriminate merely on sex alone for anything is inapropriate and there is no reason for it.
]I remember when I used to work out like a fanatic, this one guy told me to lift this heavy set of weights,I looked at him, and said you are a guy you lift it, I'm a woman,lol I'm not going to lift that.(I worked out mostly with moderate or light weights.) But men (as a generalization) I've seen can lift heavier weights. I don't feel that is sexist or discriminating, but based on anatomical differences.
But if you think I am going to have 250 pound "mamouth" tackle me on the football field you can forget that. Those guys ram each other on the football field.LOL(that's just my perspective though) Of course I'm not saying women can't play in sports like football, basketball...(Nor should they be discriminated against for wanting to play these sports, if they can compete with men or otherwise) I 've seen women have their own teams and used to watch them play football. And of course more and more women like to watch football and other sports, that were traditionally considered male domain.

I used to play softball and soccer when I was in school.

[tymejumper]

Good point, by the way I carry a ton of lipstick in my purse...LOL:lol::lol: Can't leave home without it.


How about us femmes? I do so love my makeup, right after a shower to get all the grease out from under my nails from doing machine and wheelchair repairs.....:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[ladyinred]

I inherited my vanity from my mother.LOL I'll pass by a store window looking at my thighs ,hair and everything.LOL (As if that isn't bad enough) It's like Yee Gads, I need to lose weight, or geesh look at all the grey in my hair. Are my thighs really that big?( I've lost weight went from close to 270 ,down below a 200 now. I'm not as vain now. By my mother and I even tried preparation -H to tighten the skin and thought it would help with wrinkles,lol Now I hear Carly Simon's song repeating in my head ,"you're so vain, you probably think this song is about you, you'r e so va-i-i-n." :lol::lol::lol: Only I haven't flown my lear jet up to Nova Scotia to see the total eclipse of the sun..(Lyrics to the song) More like raced my toyota to the nearest hairdresser to get my hair done.Ok, so I admit I'm not "perfect".LOL