Dying

[Progo35]

You know, I was reading a devotional book on stres and worry and one of the topics adressed in the book is the fear of dying. Going off of this, what does everyone here think about dying? What do you think happens? Does it scare you? why or why not? What does you faith say about death, does it help you deal with it?

Just wondering. I thought it might be an interesting conversation.

[Jamie McDaniel]

Interesting that you brought this up. I got a message from Mel White saying his son, Mike, was guest starring on Pushing Daisies tonight. Pushing Daisies, as you may know, is a comedy that deals with the topic of death in a very light-hearted way. (Here's the link (http://dynamic.abc.go.com/streaming/landing?lid=ABCCOMGlobalMenu&lpos=FEP) to tonight's episode, which will be available online tomorrow.)

For me personally, I've reached the age where the fact of my mortality has come into focus. I hear that is a frequent occurrence when one completes the first third of a human lifespan.

When I think of death, I often think of people or pets who I've lost. I was recently talking with my brother about his divorce, how it is an abrupt change in relationship. Death too, is an abrupt change. Prior to her death, I could call my grandmother, visit with her, be present with her. Now there is no place in all the world where I can find her. Death is natural, yet I can't help to view it as a thief.

Shakespeare has Hamlet call death the "undiscover'd country" from which "no traveler returns." In the film Jesus of Montreal, one of the actors agrees to do the role of Pontius Pilate in the passion play only if he can quote from that "To be or not to be" speech in Hamlet. Then Pontius delivers this chilling statement to Jesus:

My soldiers will take you. They're brutes, of course. We don't get the elite. You'll be whipped, then crucified. It won't be pleasant. You're not Roman, but try to be brave. Who knows, I may be doing you a favor. A philosopher said the freedom to kill oneself during hardship is the greatest gift man has. In a few hours you'll cross the Styx river of Death whence no one has returned, except Orpheus, it is said. Perhaps your kingdom lies on the far shore. Or maybe Jupiter Capitolinus awaits you, or Athena, or the god of the Germans or the Franks. There are so many gods. Perhaps the river has no other shore. . . . You at least will know.

That is what gets me about death. All the people who have every lived on this planet prior to about 1900 know what lies on that far shore. Or maybe not. There was a time when I did not exist. Maybe death is like before I was born.

[andrewlittle]

I have faced my own death twice before - one being a heart attack and the other a suicide attempt that, quite obviously, failed. As a result of both, I ended up coming to terms with my faith and my relationship with God.

What I "know" is that I will die - it is the ultimate experience of life and will happen to each of us in due time. My own death has ceased having any larger meaning to me than that. Other people's deaths, however, still cause me to reflect on what I "believe" about death.

My "belief" - the hope of my faith - is that we return to our source - in my case, that means returning to the loving God who created each and every one of us. It, then, becomes a time to mourn my loss of friendship, love or intimacy with the one who has died, and a time to celebrate the reunion of the one who has died with the Creator in new life.

It is, therefore, (to me) both a death to be mourned and a birth to be celebrated.

[paul]

You know, I was reading a devotional book on stres and worry and one of the topics adressed in the book is the fear of dying. Going off of this, what does everyone here think about dying? What do you think happens? Does it scare you? why or why not? What does you faith say about death, does it help you deal with it?

Just wondering. I thought it might be an interesting conversation.

Great idea for a topic, Progo.

I've been faced with death twice. I was struck by the thin thread that binds us to life. I was pretty light hearted about the experience, but that could have been the oxygen they gave me...I've never been so mentally clear. I was a fundamental Christian at the time and considered the experiences as gifts from God to help be get over being gay...turns out, not. But even when I was in the tortuous throes of trying to be ex-gay, I didn't fear death...really welcomed it in part, figuring anything had to be better than life. I was not suicidal, just had a death wish.

Since deconverting and also accepting that I am gay (no, I didn't deconvert because I'm gay), I have been wondering if I would now fear death since I no longer believe I know what happens after death. Nope, big zero, no fear but I haven't quite lost the hope for something better.

[Progo35]

The best thing about heaven, in my mind, is the idea of being with God, who totally understands me. In heaven, there will be no exclusion, mean spriritedness, or degradation, because we will be with God, who created and died for us. Another thought is that perhaps in heaven one will be reconciled with friends and family members even if estrangement prohibited this in life.

I don't feel afraid of dying but I think that sometimes my mental state in general impacts how I think about death. For instance, I've noticed that I tend to have a more negative view of my eternal destiny when I'm depressed. On the other hand, sometimes being vulnerable in this way opens the door to recieve God's solace, comfort and understanding. There are times when I've felt "The dark night of the soul," where I've felt very far from God and when I've been "brought back" from this state, I feel that God was there with me all the time.

[sailaway58]

Interesting thoughts and experiences. I have often thought that if I really believed in heaven and a loving, accepting God I would have killed myself years ago. The truth is more than once in the midst of depression the only thing that kept me from dieing in the woods is the fear that this may be all there is and I would like to find peace before it all ends.
Just last week I was deer hunting and reflecting on the times I sat alone in that very woods trying to think of reasons to live.
I don't care what any religion says about life after death, its all theory till you die.
I am, thank God, in a more peaceful state of mind these days but I don't assume that will always be the case.
As I read through these threads I see one thing most of us have in common. We all have battle scars. Wounded hearts and spirits for various reasons.
I think that is why I like it here. Although our wounds are for different reasons they feel the same.

[Blockwell]

I am no stranger to Death’s visitations. He has called on many of the people I have shared my life with. I have witnessed his arrival when he was not expected nor wanted and I have witnessed his mercy too. I have made peace with death. I no longer fear his reach. I have learned that death is neither good nor evil; death has no vision, no agenda, no conscience, and therefore no purchase upon which to place my wrath. Death is nothing more than a mechanism, a necessary vital role to ensure that life can and will adapt to our ever changing environment.

As a human I am in the unique position to recognize that in time death will come for me. He may come at the end of this sentence, he may wait until I am pleading for his arrival, but he will come for me. What is important is that I will have no regrets when he arrives, and right now I can say that I am ready, and for that I am thankful.

Blockwell

[Progo35]

Tonight I was thinking about St. Augustine's statement that a friend's betrayal is worse than their death. I think he's right, even though I would never went either of the friends who betrayed me to die. And, I think that if I would find being raped and murdered in an alleyway preferable to this kind of loss even though I know I actually wouldn't want that.

Funny, huh?

[paul]

Interesting thoughts and experiences. I have often thought that if I really believed in heaven and a loving, accepting God I would have killed myself years ago. The truth is more than once in the midst of depression the only thing that kept me from dieing in the woods is the fear that this may be all there is and I would like to find peace before it all ends.
Just last week I was deer hunting and reflecting on the times I sat alone in that very woods trying to think of reasons to live.
I don't care what any religion says about life after death, its all theory till you die.
I am, thank God, in a more peaceful state of mind these days but I don't assume that will always be the case.
As I read through these threads I see one thing most of us have in common. We all have battle scars. Wounded hearts and spirits for various reasons.
I think that is why I like it here. Although our wounds are for different reasons they feel the same.


IT's ironic, Tim, the idea that there IS a God and Heaven is the only thing that has kept me here sometimes. If I thought that this life was all there was I would have eased myself into the soft quietness of non-existence long ago! But I believe that there is a God who desires the best for me and gave me this life for a reason beyond my own enjoyment of it and so I stick around to see what that reason might be... and because there are people I love who need me alive and would be terribly wounded if I left "voluntarily"

Wow guys. Merry Christmas :lol:.

Seriously though, I for one, am truly glad that neither of you offed your self. I am dead serious and sincere when I say this: it is people like you who make life worth living. This is not cheap affirmation coming from me. Tim, you speak of "battle scars" as being a chief reason for your liking it here, I think you hit on something. I read u-dogs signature quote of dear Ben, and it stirs me every time: "The priciple work is love, not obedience." I think the biggest gap in the human life is that of lonliness. To me, the definition of love is to see and appreciate a person for who they are. Love's an unending gesture, given that life is not static. Our "battle scars" sensitize us to the causes of battle scars. We can react to those causes by withdrawing into ourselves in self protection, and I think suicide is the ultimate expression of that. Or, we can turn brass into gold by taking pain and using it as a vehicle to understand, "see" and love another.

The death we should fear is the living death of not loving.

[RedneckDyke]

I had a near death experience once. It felt like I was stretching my whole body at once and breathing was too much of a hassle so I stopped. My Granny was standing there next to me, smiling. GRanny had been dead already at this time. So, anytime anyone says queers go to hell, I'm not concerned because my GRanny came for me. And if ANYBODY gets to heaven, Granny did.
As far as the mechanics of the physiological dying process, I recommend the book Gone From My Sight. My partner isa nurse and used to work hospice. She ave book to families of her patients. The book talks about what to expect with terminal illness like some people stop eating and talk to people noone else sees and get a big burst of energy right before they die. The book has a poem at the front about how when we are born, people in heaven wave us goodbye and people here want to to come. And when we die people here say goodbye and people in heaven want us to come. And how dying is like a ship sailing and when she crosses the horizon, she's still there, just gone from our sight.
I do think some people don't leave here immediately when they die. My partner and I had a house cleaning business once. One time we were going to clean up a house where the lady of the house had just died suddenly in a car accident about 3 days before. When we got there, the lady's father-in-law was on the porch. He wouldn't go in the house and said "She's still there and she's really mad." We thought, "yah whatever old dude." Then we went in and got to work. There were cold drafts of wind in hot summer in the house. NONE of our electric equipment would work. (There wasn't anything wrong with the house, the lights were on. And our equipment worked fine after we left there.) Plus, I was scrubbing the tub in the bathroom. I was alone in there. The door was shut. I had cleaned the mirror before I knelt down to do the tub. I finished the tub. I got up and there were marks on the mirror. Lines like scratch marks from a hand. We finished fast and said out loud, "OK Mrs. So-and-so, we're leaving now." And we got out of there fast. We figure she was angry at being dead and not wanting any other women in her house doing stuff. I used to laugh at ghost stories but I don't anymore. That's the only time anything like that had happened to me and I don't want to repeat it.

[paul]

Hi Red,

How's stuff down on the farm? That's a great story. Did you feel like you left your body? Can you give anymore details?

[RedneckDyke]

Stuff on the farm is pretty good. We have baby goats and piglets!

Well, to answer your question. Mostly it felt like I was stretching. Like I was growing really really tall (long actually since I was laying down :p)
Breathing was to much work, so I stopped. I felt anxious, not scared, but like I was waiting for something to happen. And a little annoyed that the breathing thing was holding me back. I guess it was like when you are at the movies and they play those dumb commercials before the previews and you sit there and think "Come ON already!" Or when you are at a concert waiting for the band to come out. And everyone is chanting and stomping.
I was feeling like I had to hurry up and catch up to my Granny or I'd miss her. BReathing felt like a line or an anchor holding me down. Like a bouncer keeping me from jumping on the stage. (-: