Soulforce Position on Ex-Gays

[hippie4lyfe]

I am very disturbed and dissapointed by this as the opening to Soulforce's response to Ex-Gay ministries.

"Some homosexual persons claim to have experienced a change in their sexual orientation. Their stories are their stories and we should not try to change them if they are sincerely happy."

I feel this has no place on a Soulforce website, because it gives credence to the Ex-gay movement, it legitimizes that in fact you agree that maybe some people have actually changed. Nobody has changed from ex-gay therapy, and its one thing for Soulforce not to go out attacking people who claim to have changed but we must educate that ex-gay conversion therapy is a sham and point to the dozens of examples of "ex-gays" who went on to lead double lives or became extremely depressed, suicidal, etc.

[antonyh]

I had never really noticed the opening paragraph. I do think that it is important to respect other LGBT people's personal decisions. For the vast majority of people, becoming ex-gay is a destructive choice. But I don't think we should be in the business of condemning people who want to be ex-gay. We need to be caring when people make unfortunate decisions.

I also think that by remaining respectful of their personal decision to be ex-gay, we keep the door open for them to find their way to the truth. Instead of it making it an 'us' vs. 'them' issue, we're just here with open arms when they are ready to find the truth about themselves.

Does that make sense?

[hippie4lyfe]

Well Antony I agree with your approach about not ostracizing anyone and always lending an open arm and heart. At the same token that opening paragraph to me suggests that Soulforce does not discredit ex-gay ministries. We should not judge the individuals in "therapy" but this is not therapy this is bogus science and Soulforce should be clear that is the case. By being clear we send a strong message.

[Alecto]

My experience is my own. I get really uncomfortable when other people try to generalize their experience to include mine, because it's most often inaccurate. That said, I don't put it outside the realm of possibility that there might be rare cases of folks who have "changed". My explanation for that would probably differ greatly from the folks who did the "changing", and more importantly I think we need to hardcore examine the reasons folks think they should have to change, but ultimately it's unwise to speak for other people. The way these things work...even if it's a temporary thing (which it apparantly most often is), these people do honestly believe that they have changed their orientation. To say "no you didn't" just turns into a childish "did too!" type argument.


I guess I'm coming from a place where the MOST offensive thing to me tends to be a bunch of folks who talk about us without first talking to us as gay people. I'll personally be hard pressed to do the same thing to other folks.

This, however, does not preclude me from speaking out against the dangers of ex-gay therapy. The way I see it, maybe, just maybe, there really is a very small chance that any given person will have "success". There's a research-backed increased risk of depression, suicide etc., however, that is much higher. I don't see the "benefit" outweighing the risks, and I frankly think it should be criminal for parents to submit minors to such treatment.

[hippie4lyfe]

I don't believe there has been a single "success" of Ex-gays. The only people who maybe are describing change are 1. In denial and miserable, claiming they are changed but really celibate or living a lie. 2. The ones who claim to have changed yet live a double life (escorts, hookers, cruising). 3. People who are genuinely bisexual, I think with enough ridicule and suffering can choose to act only on their heterosexual desires. This does not mean the person is ex-gay or ex-bi, but due to the horrendous practices of the "ex-gay" movement this person feels the need to suppress their true orientation.

I feel very strongly that Soulforce should change the wording, and it certainly should not be the first words on the page! It gives people with the hope to change the wrong understanding that perhaps Soulforce does agree that change is possible.

[BrianB]

So I guess you're saying that none of the people claiming to be ex-gay are "sincerely happy". I don't know about all the ex-gays level of happiness. You could be right. However, since you feel that strongly about the Soulforce statement perhaps you should send an email or letter directly to Mel White. He would be the person with the power to change the statement.

[Alecto]

With all due respect: what you "believe" doesn't really matter. Truth is, I don't believe it either. Then again, maybe a bisexual who can learn to live somewhat happily while ignoring a part of their sexuality counts as "success", and who am I to argue with that? That's sort of the point of the "nonviolence" gig: we don't just talk at people, we need to listen to them and to where they've come from and what their experience is.

There's TONS of folks out there who don't believe there's a single gay man that hasn't been sexually abused. Or that won't end up a lonely old queen. Why is that? Because they're talking about us instead of to us. I think the wording is appropriate, and that if someone can read the first paragraph, they really ought to be reading at LEAST the opening words of the second paragraph which make it clear that there's a "...but" coming.

[Progo35]

I think that Soulforce's statement on ex-gay ministries is appropriate and necessary. Soulforce sponsored a very thoughtful discussion on ex gay therapy back in July and it is clear that it does not embrace ex-gay therapy. As Alecto says, I believe that Soulforce must respect the choices of the individuals who choose not to be gay, leaving aside the issue of choice vs. nature in this instance. Also, this goes to showing some open mindedness towards other people's perspectives. If a lack of respect is shown, it gives the impression of Soulforce attempting to inscribe a particular ideology about what is right and wrong in this arena unto others when it clearly is against that kind of proseltyzing from the other end of the arena.

On the other hand, I get very upset when people who's record indicates an anti-disability bias are responded to as if their theories are okay, but I think that Soulforce's stance as an organization is clear enough that such a statement does not connote that impression here.

[tpdncr4christ]

I am very disturbed and dissapointed by this as the opening to Soulforce's response to Ex-Gay ministries.

"Some homosexual persons claim to have experienced a change in their sexual orientation. Their stories are their stories and we should not try to change them if they are sincerely happy."

I feel this has no place on a Soulforce website, because it gives credence to the Ex-gay movement, it legitimizes that in fact you agree that maybe some people have actually changed. Nobody has changed from ex-gay therapy, and its one thing for Soulforce not to go out attacking people who claim to have changed but we must educate that ex-gay conversion therapy is a sham and point to the dozens of examples of "ex-gays" who went on to lead double lives or became extremely depressed, suicidal, etc.

The fact is, there may be some people who have changed. You have no right to decide who can and cannot overcome desires of any sort. The statement, "Nobody has changed from ex-gay therapy," is extremely closed minded and stereotypical. And seeing as though there is no way to prove sexual identity and preference then we must take these individuals on their word, as we would expect them to take us. I don't agree with the therapy, but we cannot conclude that because it doesn't work for some means it doesn't work for all.

[hippie4lyfe]

I am not saying sexual feelings do not change over time. "Therapy" however does not work. Most gay people have tried therapy to change their sexuality, I know I have. It does not work! So these crazy claims by ex-gays such as cuddling or hitting a tennis racket or shaving your hair is insane and Soulforce should not give any credence to these lunatiques.

People claim to be ex-gay are either lying or in denial. Jesus cannot set you free from homosexuality, and it is always the Jesus people who claim to be cured. Well I know many devout Gay Christians and other faiths, why hasn't there deity helped them?

[kara speltz]

I don't believe there has been a single "success" of Ex-gays. The only people who maybe are describing change are 1. In denial and miserable, claiming they are changed but really celibate or living a lie. 2. The ones who claim to have changed yet live a double life (escorts, hookers, cruising). 3. People who are genuinely bisexual, I think with enough ridicule and suffering can choose to act only on their heterosexual desires. This does not mean the person is ex-gay or ex-bi, but due to the horrendous practices of the "ex-gay" movement this person feels the need to suppress their true orientation.

I feel very strongly that Soulforce should change the wording, and it certainly should not be the first words on the page! It gives people with the hope to change the wrong understanding that perhaps Soulforce does agree that change is possible.

One of the principles of nonviolence is not to assume that you know another person's motives. While in the past I tended to share your opinion, I have met a very few exgays who appear to genuinely be happier. Now, do I believe that they were probably bisexual and that's why they have found some semulence of happiness. Yes, absolutely. But, it would be a violation of nonviolence for me to make any assumption about that.

Truthfully, the older I get the more it seems to me that there are no black or white issues, but a whole lot of greys.

kara

[hippie4lyfe]

I am not saying we need to judge or disparage their claims. But, I think Soulforce does a disservice to people by opening with those lines. If I had any inclination to believe in ex-gay therapy, reading that on the Soulforce page would give me the hope and motivation to enroll in one of those "therapies"

[Jamie McDaniel]

Well, I'm the one who wrote the text for Soulforce's Ex-Gay Ministries page (http://www.soulforce.org/article/726). I don't see how anyone can read that page and come away thinking "Soulforce does not discredit ex-gay ministries." And then there are our forum guidelines where we do not allow the promotion of ex-gay ministries.

What the opening paragraph does is set the stage so Soulforce's denunciation of ex-gay ministries is not focused on the testimonies of people who claim to be ex-gay. We all chuckle when Exodus holds a press conference and puts a real flamer up front stating he wants God to send him a woman. They've grown wise to how that comes across to the media and the movable middle, so now they try to put out the stories of men and women who have married someone of the opposite sex and now have a family. So spending much time poking at their stories is time not well spent, in my opinion, unless there is a scandal or they say something that really gives insight into the fact that their sexual orientation has not changed. Instead, we take the approach of condemning ex-gay ministries for how they portray life as a homosexual person to their clients. And the fact that all the major medical groups state there is no need for homosexuals to attempt change. And we work to get out the word about the many many testimonies of people who have been there and done that before finally accepting themselves.

[hippie4lyfe]

Jamie I fundamentally disagree with the way in which the text was started than. I really strongly believe that the wording alludes to the false hope that perhaps change is possible for some individuals. Why does it have to start out with these words? I mean it is one thing not to try to change their stories or condemn them, but just do that in action why do we open with that statement?

It really bothers me, a lot, I hope that there can be an alteration. I mean people have asked for help changing their orientation and I cannot even direct them to Soulforce because I think the page is unintentionally confusing. I send them to other sources about ex-ex gays and truthful sources.

[Steven E. Webster]

Jamie I fundamentally disagree with the way in which the text was started than. I really strongly believe that the wording alludes to the false hope that perhaps change is possible for some individuals. Why does it have to start out with these words? I mean it is one thing not to try to change their stories or condemn them, but just do that in action why do we open with that statement?

It really bothers me, a lot, I hope that there can be an alteration. I mean people have asked for help changing their orientation and I cannot even direct them to Soulforce because I think the page is unintentionally confusing. I send them to other sources about ex-ex gays and truthful sources.

Friends,
I think Hippie may have a point. Could that page be improved by rearranging the paragraphs? The issue of what our attitude should be towards persons who claim to be "ex-gay" could even be addressed at greater length, but not at the beginning of the page.

I think the re-write might better begin with the official positions of the mental health professional associations. The next logical point would be a discussion of the harm done by "ex-gay" ministries.

I think it needs to be made very clear that Soulforce opposes the notion that the Creator, God or "The Soulforce at the Center of the Universe" requires gay people to become straight or celibate in order to be acceptable. Others may sincerely hold the opposite view of God, but they are sincerely wrong.

Steven Webster

[Emproph]

Well, I'm the one who wrote the text for Soulforce's Ex-Gay Ministries page (http://www.soulforce.org/article/726). I don't see how anyone can read that page and come away thinking "Soulforce does not discredit ex-gay ministries." And then there are our forum guidelines where we do not allow the promotion of ex-gay ministries.

What the opening paragraph does is set the stage so Soulforce's denunciation of ex-gay ministries is not focused on the testimonies of people who claim to be ex-gay.
Agreed.

Opening paragraph(s) of Ex-Gay Ministries page (http://www.soulforce.org/article/726):
Ex-Gay Ministries and Reparative Therapy

Some homosexual persons claim to have experienced a change in their sexual orientation. Their stories are their stories and we should not try to change them if they are sincerely happy.

With that said, however, the vast majority of our brothers and sisters who are same-sex attracted entered "ex-gay ministries" or "reparative therapy" under the belief of a homosexual orientation being morally inferior and a heterosexual orientation being morally superior. Such a belief is a dangerous untruth that is used by certain religious groups to not only shame GLBT people, but to also deny them equality in society and full membership in their churches.

I'm not suggesting that the sentiment(s) is/are perfect, but I personally can't suggest anything more perfect.

In addition, there are nine hyperlinks, plus a video--worth of resources to explore. If someone is going to dismiss all that based on the first two sentences, then I would say that the problem lies with the reader, not with the writer.

[hippie4lyfe]

Well I think we all agree here that ex-gay therapy is dangerous but we should not judge people who claim these experiences. I think it is just semantics, like Steven I'd really hope the page can be altered.

[Daniel]

An excellent interview by a former ex-gay minister From the Southern Poverty Law Center.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=847

[ladyinred]

That was a pretty informative article Daniel thanks.

[ladyinred]

I think an imprtant factor to consider is that soulforce does not have control over the decisions of people who want to go into reparative therapy,while we can point out the potential dangers and failure rate, people will still make their own decisions. I do agree that there should be support for those who have been disillusioned by exgay therapies and their stories are also important in that they tell the other side. But I don't know about the efficacy of exgay therapies.(with such a high failure rate, it should be raised to doubt) I read that those who had said they had changed or change was possible may have been bisexual instead of homosexual and could easily adapt to the life of a heterosexual. We also have to trust and honor the experiences of the survivors of ex gay therapies, some people had been involved in these therapies for years and nothing changed for them. That is a very telling story in itself.

[inca nitta]

That was a pretty informative article Daniel thanks.

An excellent interview by a former ex-gay minister From the Southern Poverty Law Center.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=847


Yes Daniel,

I found this article to be very interesting, too. I am moved by Scott Harrison's opinion saying that Mr. Brown, whose quotes I saw in the foyer, wants to create laws that would justify execution of gays, based on Leviticus.

I also have an opinion on this matter: I think that Mr. Harrison wants exgay leaders like Alan Chambers and "reparative" therapy leaders, Nicolosi and Santinover, to be charged on crimes against humanity, similar to the Nuremberg Trial. It seems to me that Scott Harrison is connecting exgay/reparative movement and its leaders with Eichmann and the Holocaust, in my opinion.

[Emproph]

Yes Daniel,

I found this article to be very interesting, too. I am moved by Scott Harrison's opinion saying that Mr. Brown, whose quotes I saw in the foyer, wants to create laws that would justify execution of gays, based on Leviticus.

I also have an opinion on this matter: I think that Mr. Harrison wants exgay leaders like Alan Chambers and "reparative" therapy leaders, Nicolosi and Santinover, to be charged on crimes against humanity, similar to the Nuremberg Trial. It seems to me that Scott Harrison is connecting exgay/reparative movement and its leaders with Eichmann and the Holocaust, in my opinion.

That connection already exists to the extent that the anti-gay industry -- which includes much if not most of the ex-gay movement -- is attempting to impose their supremacist views onto the rest of us, the end result of which includes the criminalization of homosexuality. But you can't charge someone with crimes against humanity until they've committed them, and they haven't gotten that far yet.

Harrison clarifies that he believes that these ministries should be allowed to exist, just that their efforts shouldn't be state sanctioned.

So I guess I'm asking why that connection stands out for you with this article in particular?

It also appears that you feel the connection is unfounded, is this the case?

(We can discuss it in the foyer if you think it may be better suited there.)