Why do Straights hate gays? by Larry Kramer

[antonyh]

DEAR STRAIGHT PEOPLE,

Why do you hate gay people so much?

Gays are hated. Prove me wrong. Your top general just called us immoral. Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, is in charge of an estimated 65,000 gay and lesbian troops, some fighting for our country in Iraq. A right-wing political commentator, Ann Coulter, gets away with calling a straight presidential candidate a faggot. Even Garrison Keillor, of all people, is making really tacky jokes about gay parents in his column. This, I guess, does not qualify as hate except that it is so distasteful and dumb, often a first step on the way to hate. Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama tried to duck the questions that Pace's bigotry raised, confirming what gay people know: that there is not one candidate running for public office anywhere who dares to come right out, unequivocally, and say decent, supportive things about us.

Gays should not vote for any of them. There is not a candidate or major public figure who would not sell gays down the river. We have seen this time after time, even from supposedly progressive politicians such as President Clinton with his "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays in the military and his support of the hideous Defense of Marriage Act. Of course, it's possible that being shunned by gays will make politicians more popular, but at least we will have our self-respect. To vote for them is to collude with them in their utter disdain for us.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-kramer20mar20,0,1705133.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

What do you think about Kramer's editorial?

[Alecto]

I'm generally opposed to boycotting votes because I kind of feel like that's what the folks in power would want us to do anyway, but I'll be honest...if it comes down to the wrong two candidates, I would be tempted to abstain.

Having read up on the history, I can almost excuse "don't ask don't tell", in part because it's not really worse than what was there before, it's just definitely no better. There is no excuse for DOMA forever. It was a knife in the back from a president who ran on a gay rights platform.

[keltic63]

Garrison Keillor is making gay jokes???? where can I find this? I usually love his stuff. why would he be doing this?

[Daniel]

Garrison Keillor is making gay jokes???? where can I find this? I usually love his stuff. why would he be doing this?

I like Larry Kramer, I really do. But sometime's I just want to tell the guy to try another way of going about things: he's refined his anger so much that I wonder if he can see anything but his anger. And this thing about not supporting anyone...well....that's just silly. It's like the the kid who tries to control all the toys in the sand box. We need more people voting, not less. In fact, it's been mentioned that the demographics are such that if- say- every African-American person voted, elections would be radically different. Have we forgotten what happened in Florida so soon?

On Keillor: there was something about this on HuffingtonPost (if I recall correctly). And if memory serves, it was pointed about that Keillor's comment was taken seriously, when it, in fact, was meant as satire. A case of Kramer seeing something that isn't there?

[ladyinred]

The thing is the radical right actually organizes to get out the vote from their supporters, if other people don't vote it just makes it easier for them to get their way. So I agree with Daniel.

[Zerbie]

Larry Kramer. An articulate communicator whose message has not changed over the years.

He makes a lot of important point when he paints the overall picture. Things ARE bad. He's good to read if we're feeling complacent.

Of course, fewer people voting is an anti-solution. Do that, things will disintegrate further. As far as LGBTs and elections go, we need to start local by identifying local candidates for city council and state legislative seats who are going to be friendly to the community, and supporting their campaigns. Start small and let it grow - support young local candidates who support the community. Elect them, and who knows where those young supportive politicians will be 20 years from now.

If anybody has a way of contacting Mr Kramer, might be fun to send him a link to all the national Seven Straight Nights coverage. He may say, oh that's too little too late, knowing him, but ya never know. Might shake him up a wee bit.

[Alecto]

My guess is that he'd side with the Queer Nation interpretation: if you're straight, and you think that all the negative stuff directed towards straights is at you, you're just looking for affirmation that we shouldn't have to give you. If you're an ally, you should know you're an ally and that whatever's being said doesn't apply to you (if you don't hate gay people, and you don't partake in any of his examples of hating gay people, then you should already know that).

[Zerbie]

My guess is that he'd side with the Queer Nation interpretation: if you're straight, and you think that all the negative stuff directed towards straights is at you, you're just looking for affirmation that we shouldn't have to give you. If you're an ally, you should know you're an ally and that whatever's being said doesn't apply to you (if you don't hate gay people, and you don't partake in any of his examples of hating gay people, then you should already know that).

:confused: What does that have to do with this conversation?

I floated the idea of showing him the extensive media coverage of those events because HE seems unwilling to consider the possibility that anyone straight might not hate the LGBT community. He has been talking like this for years. You would think that an effort like the national 7SN event series might penetrate in a little and make someone think "Well, maybe things have been getting a little bit better" in that regard. But if he'd rather remain convinced those absolutes are correct so that he can stay angry. . . :rolleyes:

[Alecto]

I literally don't know what you don't understand about how the queer nation bit was related to this.

What I'm saying is that I really doubt that he literally thinks that there are NO straight allies. I think he's saying that you straight allies out there that really are allies...SHH! I'm not talking to you. Y'know? And as for why he doesn't come out and say "SHH, I'm not talking to you", that's what the above is all about.

[antonyh]

:confused: What does that have to do with this conversation?

I floated the idea of showing him the extensive media coverage of those events because HE seems unwilling to consider the possibility that anyone straight might not hate the LGBT community. He has been talking like this for years. You would think that an effort like the national 7SN event series might penetrate in a little and make someone think "Well, maybe things have been getting a little bit better" in that regard. But if he'd rather remain convinced those absolutes are correct so that he can stay angry. . . :rolleyes:

:lol: We should send Larry over to Daniel's house for a little Buddhist meditation and a conversation on letting go. Jokes aside, I think that avoiding the ballot box is a bad idea for our community. I wish Larry would cozy up with MLK and read "Give Us The Ballot". Voting is such an important part of being in a democracy and making things different.

That said, I hear his frustrations. This brings up another interesting conversation. I feel significantly hated in this society. Am I just paranoid? How do we cope with that psychologically?

[Zerbie]

I literally don't know what you don't understand about how the queer nation bit was related to this.

Maybe this is because I'm so ridiculously under the weather but I'm offended by your language above about not 'understanding." IT's a completely unrelated statement. I can't see how I could have been clearer that the suggestion about sharing 7SN coverage, however petty, was about shaking Larry Kramer's perception, not about justifying those who are straight allies. Good grief, who cares? I just thought it might be nice for a bitter old man to see a concerted effort by those who he thought would never care.


What I'm saying is that I really doubt that he literally thinks that there are NO straight allies. I think he's saying that you straight allies out there that really are allies...SHH! I'm not talking to you. Y'know? And as for why he doesn't come out and say "SHH, I'm not talking to you", that's what the above is all about.

Maybe this is because I am sick today, but that's exactly why I see this having NOTHING to do with what I said and I'm even frustrated about it.

The glib suggestion about letting him see the efforts that SF's straight allies recently made has nothing to do with straight people reacting to a statement Larry makes. This has everything to do with Larry's continued rhetoric that 'straight people hate gays. Period. '

My point has been: His rhetoric is in absolute terms. It has not changed in 20 years.

I think you may be mistaken about him recognizing straight allies. He has expressed such a cynicism about them over the years that I don't think he DOES believe they exist. I'm fairly certain that he's out & out SAID that all straights hate gays. I remember how sad I felt thinking what it must feel like to go through 70 years believing that and not seeing any convincing evidence to the contrary. I'm pretty sure that was part of his 2004 speech. If I were at home I could pull my copy out and check for you, but I'm not at home.

Well, I'm probably just flying off the handle because I'm sick. It's obvious that if his description does not apply to someone, they know that. I think that's obvious enough that it does not need to be said. I just thought the efforts of all those straight people involved with SF and Atticus might surprise a hurt, bitter, angry old man with a little something pleasant, for a change.

Ugh. Just re-read this, and it meanders a lot, but I'm feeling too dizzy to edit it. Maybe it IS my communication being fuzzy today. If so - has that cleared it up?

[Daniel]

:lol: We should send Larry over to Daniel's house for a little Buddhist meditation and a conversation on letting go.

That would do the trick. Reminds me of the Buddhist conception of Samskara.


The term refers in particular to volitions and intentions (which may be morally good, bad, or neutral) and the way that these contribute to the formation of individual patterns of behaviour or traits of character. Repetition imprints a particular sa?sk?ra on the psyche and the imprint is carried over into the next life.

In short: if you live your life in anger, then anger is the first thing that the mind will turn to. Like water in a well-worn groove, it can only go in one direction after awhile. It takes a great amount of effort and training to make things go a different way. And while Zerbie's idea is a good one, I wonder if showing Larry anything 'positive' would change anything or have much effect. But then, you never know until you try, right? And trying (even if one fails) is important.

That said, I hear his frustrations. This brings up another interesting conversation. I feel significantly hated in this society. Am I just paranoid? How do we cope with that psychologically?

I hear his/your frustration too. And do feel at odds in the society in which we live. But we all know the answer. We have to risk being out. Those who are trying to do some kind of post-modern end-run around the matter (as if it didn't matter) are simply trying to save their asses- that's what I think anyway.

When we have marriage and a generation of married gay folks, and are just as dull and boring as the straight folks...well...that will be the day.

And you know what? I don't really care if straight people hate me (I actually think that most people are too self-involved to go around hating me actually): I just want the same rights.

[antonyh]

Daniel, your post reminded me of this gay guy in Britain singlehandedly taking on the Cornwall Police.

0c66P0SMUSA

His site:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=thepinkpasty

[andrewlittle]

Daniel, your post reminded me of this gay guy in Britain singlehandedly taking on the Cornwall Police.

I would loved to have known Andy, and I admire his friend, the person who produced this video, immensely. I pray his efforts are fruitful beyond imagination.

[Daniel]

Daniel, your post reminded me of this gay guy in Britain singlehandedly taking on the Cornwall Police.


Which comes on the heels of a level of risk most of us don't have to make. I pray that this merry part of England sees the light.

Thanks for this link. It's a beautiful tribute, though it's beauty doesn't make the horror which has brought it about any less than what it is.

You know, I think that while many of us don't pay this kind of price, there is still a quiet erosion that takes place. We don't apply for this or that job, make waves in such and such area, don't draw too much attention to ourselves. We self-edit a great deal, like we're always waiting for the sword to fall. Do younger folks have it better? I hope so.

My guy and I were talking about this the other night. He has been interning at SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environement) here is NYC, and also had a much older gay mentor when he was younger- so he's had a fair amount of contact with senior gay folk. What do they have in common? A reserve which, you might say, was used to help them pass. While those my age (49) don't have this same manner, I believe we are still suffering from the same root of homophobia. We don't let ourselves bloom as much as we could. And to have to fight against so many forces in order just to 'be'? That's just too much for some.

Anthony- This video breaks my heart.

[Alecto]

Zerb,
I tend to be a little spacy myself (I don't have an excuse though). I can see how what I said might sound...patronizing? And I apologize, cause that's not where I was trying to take it. This thread is kind of a weird one for me, because for awhile I saw myself as taking one of two paths. Soulforce would symbolically represent the one path; Mr. Kramer himself would represent the other. I guess a part of me really doesn't want to see so many people jump to proclaim him a bitter old queen, y'know (especially when there's still a chance that I might be in a similar space down the road; and happy to be there).

As for coping with living in this society, it's an interesting question. I still don't really know how that works for me (or if it works for me). Anyone read "Lockpick Pornography" by Joey Cameau? I feel like it's an exploration of what how that character deals with that problem, and deals with the fact that his coping mechanisms aren't particularly solid.

[antonyh]

You know, I think that while many of us don't pay this kind of price, there is still a quiet erosion that takes place. We don't apply for this or that job, make waves in such and such area, don't draw too much attention to ourselves. We self-edit a great deal, like we're always waiting for the sword to fall. Do younger folks have it better? I hope so.

My guy and I were talking about this the other night. He has been interning at SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environement) here is NYC, and also had a much older gay mentor when he was younger- so he's had a fair amount of contact with senior gay folk. What do they have in common? A reserve which, you might say, was used to help them pass. While those my age (49) don't have this same manner, I believe we are still suffering from the same root of homophobia. We don't let ourselves bloom as much as we could. And to have to fight against so many forces in order just to 'be'? That's just too much for some.

There really is that quiet erosion. I've found myself dealing with that over the last few months as I job hunted. I would ask myself, should I put a "t" in Antony so that google searches don't reveal my sexual orientation and open up the possibility of discrimination. Should I apply for this corporate job that does not have domestic partner benefits...yada yada yada. I feel it when I am out with my partner. Should I wear my matching wedding ring in public? Can I hold his hand in public? Are we setting ourselves up for a beating by some homophobe? Having covered hate crimes for the last seven months, I am very sensitive to the reality of unplanned bashings. I've even talked to my partner about this...what is prudent in public? It has unsettled my psyche.

I think sometimes we just have to be with our fears and realize that they are not our fault. They are spontaneous and spring from that root of homophobia you talked about above. We need to be brave when we can and allow ourselves to find safety when we need it. Slowly but surely we will become comfortable in our own skins and with our public voice.

This guy in Cornwall has suffered more than I can imagine. I don't know if you've had a chance to see the other vids on his youtube site. He is an artist and had all his work seized by police. I just hope this site gets more and more visitors and that it stirs enough outrage that something can be done for the plight of LGBT people in Cornwall.

[Zerbie]

Hey Alecto, you were fine. I totally flipped out yesterday :rolleyes: - there was no reason for it - just sick, starved, hurting, exhausted, and itching to scream and yell about something. :rolleyes: I'm sorry.

Now, Larry Kramer is bitter. That doesn't mean everything he says should be discounted or not taken seriously. To the contrary, the things that wounded him are tremendous things, they are recent, and many of them still applicable. He is in a position to see and point out to us the threats that we do live under. I love it when he exhorts gay people to get out of complacency, to take responsibility for themselves and one another. I love that part of his message. All of America, whatever orientation, should heed that message. I love Larry Kramer, actually. He can light a fire under ya and make ya wanna DO something. I find myself nodding and saying "yes" to a lot of what he has to say.

But he is embittered and the anger has been locked into place for 2 decades. He is stuck in it. As Daniel says, it's doubtful he'd budge much if he knew about the efforts of straight allies across the nation, but he might at least give it a grudging nod in the midst of his fulminations. Might make him take stock of the fact that 2007/8 is not 1987/8.

[Zerbie]

there is still a quiet erosion that takes place. We don't apply for this or that job, make waves in such and such area, don't draw too much attention to ourselves. We self-edit a great deal, like we're always waiting for the sword to fall. Do younger folks have it better? I hope so.

My guy and I were talking about this the other night. He has been interning at SAGE (Senior Action in a Gay Environement) here is NYC, and also had a much older gay mentor when he was younger- so he's had a fair amount of contact with senior gay folk. What do they have in common? A reserve which, you might say, was used to help them pass. While those my age (49) don't have this same manner, I believe we are still suffering from the same root of homophobia. We don't let ourselves bloom as much as we could. And to have to fight against so many forces in order just to 'be'? That's just too much for some.

.


There really is that quiet erosion. I've found myself dealing with that over the last few months as I job hunted. I would ask myself, should I put a "t" in Antony so that google searches don't reveal my sexual orientation and open up the possibility of discrimination. Should I apply for this corporate job that does not have domestic partner benefits...yada yada yada. I feel it when I am out with my partner. Should I wear my matching wedding ring in public? Can I hold his hand in public? Are we setting ourselves up for a beating by some homophobe? Having covered hate crimes for the last seven months, I am very sensitive to the reality of unplanned bashings. I've even talked to my partner about this...what is prudent in public? It has unsettled my psyche.



:(:'(
:'(

I see it. I grew up seeing it in those around me, and now I hear it every day on this forum.

Are we doing the utmost that can be done about it? I suppose so. I suppose it is a continual, slow process. It's not like there's a neat little gift-wrapped solution sitting on a shelf somewhere.

Do you find your attitude flows in up waves and down waves, where sometimes you feel like we're succeeding in changing things for the better, and other times when it all seems like we're still where we started?

[antonyh]

Hey Alecto, you were fine. I totally flipped out yesterday :rolleyes: - there was no reason for it - just sick, starved, hurting, exhausted, and itching to scream and yell about something. :rolleyes: I'm sorry.

Now, Larry Kramer is bitter. That doesn't mean everything he says should be discounted or not taken seriously. To the contrary, the things that wounded him are tremendous things, they are recent, and many of them still applicable. He is in a position to see and point out to us the threats that we do live under. I love it when he exhorts gay people to get out of complacency, to take responsibility for themselves and one another. I love that part of his message. All of America, whatever orientation, should heed that message. I love Larry Kramer, actually. He can light a fire under ya and make ya wanna DO something. I find myself nodding and saying "yes" to a lot of what he has to say.

But he is embittered and the anger has been locked into place for 2 decades. He is stuck in it. As Daniel says, it's doubtful he'd budge much if he knew about the efforts of straight allies across the nation, but he might at least give it a grudging nod in the midst of his fulminations. Might make him take stock of the fact that 2007/8 is not 1987/8.

This is an interesting discussion because the temptation to bitterness is always there. MLK continually exhorted people to avoid the temptation to bitterness. I wonder why that is?

[Zerbie]

This is an interesting discussion because the temptation to bitterness is always there. MLK continually exhorted people to avoid the temptation to bitterness. I wonder why that is?

Was the question a real question? Or rhetorical?

In case it was a real question: because bitterness does not get the job done. Bitterness is armor, decorated with assumptions, rusted into place. If you're being bitter, you are seeing the past, not the present. Therefore your actions can easily misfire and not achieve your intentions. Bitterness kills the life energy, the creative energy. In order to achieve anything in life, we need creative energy.

[antonyh]

Was the question a real question? Or rhetorical?

In case it was a real question: because bitterness does not get the job done. Bitterness is armor, decorated with assumptions, rusted into place. If you're being bitter, you are seeing the past, not the present. Therefore your actions can easily misfire and not achieve your intentions. Bitterness kills the life energy, the creative energy. In order to achieve anything in life, we need creative energy.

Somewhat rhetorical. Amen Sister. I think you're emerging from your funk! Lookout world :)

[Alecto]

In Kramer's more recent speech about the whatever-it-was anniversary of ACTUP...I don't know if "bitter" is the right word. I saw bitter, yes, but I also saw...deflated. I saw a man who really did believe in his younger days that he would save the world. And he's made some great and awesome changes, but...it's like Moses come to realize he won't see the promised land, y'know? And maybe that goes some way towards making him a little more hard and a little less optimistic. But, yeah. All those things you said you loved about him...they're what drew me to him too.

[Gennee]

As a transgender individual, I see the situation as one who believes that we are making our presence felt. In order to attain rights one has to be willing to stick their neck out. I have been crossdressing for 2 1/2 years now and the day is coming when I will tell the greater society that this is who I am.

I believe that young people are more open and receptive to LGBT causes. I was interviewed at the Veteran's Day parade by graduate students and they seemed to be genuinely interested in why I am what I am. Look at all the controversy in the various dnominations. Perhaps god is moving in a new way.

Gennee

:)

[tymejumper]

maybe we should just decide who to vote for on this website and all agree to go and vote. There are so many gay people out there that if we really extended our voting power, the earth would shake!

I as a woman would lean to Hillary but no one seems to have a 'straight'(no pun intended)answer about what they will do for us, the LGBT people whom need to have some answers! I know I am not voting for that idot in Utah thats for sure!

[Zerbie]

maybe we should just decide who to vote for on this website and all agree to go and vote. There are so many gay people out there that if we really extended our voting power, the earth would shake!

I as a woman would lean to Hillary but no one seems to have a 'straight'(no pun intended)answer about what they will do for us, the LGBT people whom need to have some answers! I know I am not voting for that idot in Utah thats for sure!

When I first read your note, I thought you were suggesting that we all write-in someone from this forum as a write-in candidate!!!

[Alecto]

This is the reason that everyone needs to either HAVE children of their own or forge significant lifelong friendships WITH children regardless of whether we are gay, straight, male, female, fertile, infertile, whatever. Having children and young people in your life makes the whole "Moses thing" SO MUCH more bearable. Its not so important to reach the promised land yourself if you know that someone in the next generation will... Its why TigerXero's Thanksgiving experience (boyfriend being accepted at Dad's family) made me so happy.


I'll go with "younger generation", but...in all seriousness, I kind of just don't like children.

[tymejumper]

When I first read your note, I thought you were suggesting that we all write-in someone from this forum as a write-in candidate!!!



I vote for Spongebob!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Zerbie]

I vote for Spongebob!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Somebody sign him up for the forum, then.
:rolleyes::p:lol:

[ladyinred]

Perhaps a question should be asked along these lines? Why should straights hate gays?

[Alecto]

I don't know as I understand what you mean by that. I thought the whole point was "they kinda shouldn't, but there's an awful lot seem to anyway".

[ladyinred]

What legitimate reasons do straight people have for hating gays? Homophobia? The idea perhaps ,"Ick , I don't want to be around those people I might catch what they have?" Who knows?

[BruceChris]

"Insecurity about one's own heterosexuality". And too many people seem to think that the easiest way to make the feeling go away is to do your best to make the homosexuals go away. Or at least go back in the closet.

So for any one of us to stay in, or go back into the closet is actually making life easier for them, or at least making it easier for them to not have to face their own feelings, and begin to be honest with themselves. It also allows us to not have to face OUR feelings, at least temporarily.

So we can both avoid anything unpleasant, like having to grow.

P&L, BC

[Vanessa White]

I say worse, because it really feels worse inside. I mean, I have had comments and/or gestures made toward me when members of the general public have assumed I was gay, and that has been obnoxious and rude. But, what gets to me more is feeling like others just TOLERATE my gayness, almost like they HAVE to, not because they really embrace that part of who I am. And that gets to me in a real deep, personal way. Because, I love the feeling of being on a cloud because I am fully, totally in love, because we have a well adjusted, beautiful daughter, because we stand for something important and worthwhile, because we are human and compassionate and loving, but when it comes to the fact that my partner is female and not male, it is like some people just nod their heads up and down, smiling as I speak, with neither a clue, nor a desire to really know more. You know, that when a person does ask questions about "how did you know?", or other things that seem not to be some type of voyeurism, I appreciate it, because at least someone is interested in knowing about me and my experience. My coworker who is married to a man and has two children, said that it must get so frustrating for me to have to constantly need to justify who I am, or at least feel like I have to a lot of the time. And she is right. It is unnerving, tiring, frustrating, and creates heartache for me also. :love:

[Alecto]

Maybe it's a matter of realism, but...I don't want or need everyone's approval. There are some folks in my personal life that it would be really ideal to have their approval (and I think I'm fortunate enough that I do), but as for random people I meet, the bare minimum requirement is literal tolerance. If you can't be professional at work because I'm gay, YOU have a problem, and it's not me. If you can't act like a normal productive citizen while there's gay people in front of you, YOU have a problem and it's not me. If you can do all of that and treat the people around you like human beings, that's the bare minimum. I don't really ask for anything more than that (unless you think you're one of my friends: I do require more of my friends).

[Vanessa White]

Hey Alecto: Thank you for your thoughts. I really believe that I don't feel the need to have the approval of others. However, in terms of the human condition, I just crave and desire that those around me, do more than just tolerate me. Which is what I try to do for others, not just tolerate, but embrace and gain understanding of other people and their experiences.

I guess for me therein lies the dilemma, or the disgust. It seems at times that some heterosexual people just don't want to understand. They don't want to take the time to understand. That is why when persons like Zerbie or others that are allies come along, it is like a gift from heaven. It isn't just tolerance, but true understanding. In some ways, I understand why Larry Kramer feels so gloom and doom about situations, even though I am an eternal optimist; there are days it just seems like we won't get anywhere with society.......:'(

[Zerbie]

I just crave and desire that those around me, do more than just tolerate me. Which is what I try to do for others, not just tolerate, but embrace and gain understanding of other people and their experiences.

when persons like Zerbie or others that are allies come along, it is like a gift from heaven.

:o:'(:love::o:'(:o:'(:love::o:'(:love::o:'(:love:

Friends are gifts from heaven. I see you as the one who is a gift. :love::love::love:

It isn't just tolerance, but true understanding. In some ways, I understand why Larry Kramer feels so gloom and doom about situations, even though I am an eternal optimist; there are days it just seems like we won't get anywhere with society.......:'(

I am connecting to your words - I don't know if it's related to what you mean but I have a continual frustration. This is not specific to the LGBT thing, but is a general observation. I want, I actually expect, to be seen for who I really am - the eternal part, the part that keeps getting back up and loving again, and trying again. I want people to see that when they see me walk into the room. But I think this is actually a ridiculous expectation for several reasons. We are habituated not to look at that part of people but to look at exteriors, if we look at all. Most of the time we're so wrapped up in our own problems we don't even look. It's ridiculous that I want other people to see me that way even when most of the time I don't remember to look at them in the same regard.

I do think that part of being in life in the world means we will go unseen by many, whoever we are. Consider that Jesus went unseen by many of his time. Whoa, some of them really hated him! If even Jesus cannot be recognized and loved by the many, why on earth would I think that I can be?

So, I'll take 'tolerance' from those on the outskirts of my life, and yeah, I kind of do chuckle at them for what they're missing (I mean, I'm fantastic, right? :p;)) It is only from my intimates that I can rightly ask to be really embraced, and have any expectation of it happening.

Vanessa, next time you're feeling unloved and a lack of embrace, reflect on the company you are keeping. Consider those who were treated that way before you: Jesus, Martin Luther King, and the list goes on and on with heros. You are most certainly not alone, and those who *really* know what they're looking at will recognize a like mind. The rest, we can't worry about.

[tdogg]

That's a good response Zerbie. When I think of tolerance, my first feeling is that my emotional self would prefer to be hated openly and outright for who I am, rather than merely tolerated. It hurts to think my being is relegated to a mere 'toleration' by others.

But when I apply your thoughts to my personal situation with various family & friends, I can see where if they at least tolerated me and my partner, it would be a start. Tolerance leads to thinking about it, and getting to know the person somewhat. That might lead to the opening of minds, and a beginning of something more than tolerance. If one is outright hated, there is very little room for opening of minds. The emotional self has to stand behind the intellectual self on this for it to work well I think.

[Vanessa White]

Both tdogg and zerbie are helpful for me in this way. Maybe tolerance needs to be viewed differently, and be viewed as a first step rather than an outright rejection. I mean, I do believe that as humans, we only do the best that we can do at any given time. Tolerance today can mean fuller understanding tomorrow. Therefore, we are holding onto the hope that the situation/circumstance will improve in the future..... :love:

Thanks women!!!! :love:

[tdogg]

It's hard to do though. You have to really not get emotional and not take the 'tolerance' personal. That's difficult, for me at least. I'm very sensitive and can get emotional. Oh, and angry too if it goes on too long. But, often I wish some of my family would be at least tolerant, cause now I barely exist for them. :(

And I like to think that by accepting tolerance, we are being the better person for it, maybe?